Why a PhD in Biblical Studies Left Calvinism
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Dr. Curtis Dupree, a PhD in Biblical Studies/Old Testament from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, joins Dr. Flowers to discuss why he no longer affirms Calvinistic doctrine. Join us for a live conversation!
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I've needed this so bad you've giving hope, listening to some of the Calvinist I was in such despair because I thought God didn't want me. So thank you very much.
you bring up an important issue Erika , I wonder how many poor souls have been discouraged from seeking salvation because they believed what Calvin states about GOD choosing randomly who to save and who to damn .
@@jennyharkin9495 me
@@brandonmack8573 , Christ died for you as much as He did for the rest of us. I hope you've broken free of the sailor's knot which Calvinism so often seems to be for those who are caught up in it. ( The Voice of Experience here. )
@@bobtaylor170 I believe so but now I’ve stumbled into free grace theology
@@brandonmack8573, are you referring to the Grace Evangelical Society? I don't know what I think of them yet.
I just now discovered this interview and found it outstanding. While a student at Talbot I attended MacArthur's church, interned there, and have friends who were on staff at one time. I embraced Calvinism, but years ago moved away from it. Though not a Calvinist, I have a great appreciation for the excellent theological work by Calvinists, and still listen to and read works by MacArthur and Sproul and a myriad of calvinist scholars. The numerous comments from those who disagree with you is indicative of their sad spiritual state, evidenced by their extremely vicious and disgraceful attacks that are clearly contrary to what 1 John discusses concerning the treatment of fellow believers. Tragically, they have made calvinism their idol, and react with great vitriol to anyone who questions it.
So well said! I always say it was the fruit of calvinsim that pushed me away.....never embraced it but wrestled with it. Most I've met who are true calvvinists are not loving. They treat you like a black guy at a Klan meeting......you're not one of them and you're heretical. Most are arrogant and prideful.....just look at James White, but I met many just like him. And then there is the evangelism side.....how can you evangelize with any spirit or love.....and that is how they come across - they don't really care. All are also frantically busy and trying to work for their salvation which explains the P in tulip.....that is not eternal security like many believe. And the big one is that it makes God look random and unjust....not loving. God Bless!
I'm a Pentecostal pastor ministering to the poorest of the poor in South Africa
sometimes this American Evangelical elitism is very disappointing
Our congregation consists of impoverished mostly women illiterate and mostly uneducated
Besides this the demonic ancestral culture is hugely binding and REAL supernatural power is required just to try keep them from being sucked back
We preach a very simplistic basic gospel message expository preaching will bear no fruit on our assembly we do have Bible study meetings in the week when a few of the abusive alcoholic husband's allow their wives to leave their shacks
The chosen frozen reformed churches have has very little impact amongst these people over the years and if The Lord has divinely chosen us Pentecostal / Charismatics to forward his kingdom here you should be praising God and not criticizing us
Just because we preach a so called simple gospel doesn't reflect on our sincere and deep walk with Christ
Hello, can you tell more about how the supernatural affects your ministry ? Thank you !
Americans believe God is American
ok and?
FYI: The first book that helped with refute Calvinism is "The Other Side of Calvinism". It is very scholarly and about 800 pages but I HIGHLY recommend it, especially before you start reading the more philosophical books which are my favorite type.
The book doesn't just look at doctrinal errors. It really lays out the history of calvinism.
Long but very good book
@@djohnson3093 It covers tons of scriptures with a topical index that disprove the Calvinist Doctrines. And the history of Calvinism is fundamental to understanding Calvinism and it's errors so I think that's what makes it such a valuable read.
I 2nd this.
Just added it to my Wish List. Thank you!
Leighton, thank you so much for helping me leave Calvinism behind with confidence.
What I find interesting is how Calvinists seem to fear non-Calvinists, because they don’t want to be taken in by non-Calvinism. But, if you think about it, that makes no sense, because if Calvinism was actually true then nothing that a non-Calvinist says or teaches is even capable of such damage. LOL
EXACTLY ❤️
As a lifelong non-Calvinist Christian, whose perspective on Calvinism was entirely from the outside (though I was fairly well informed about what they actually believe), they never struck me as being the least bit "intellectual", at least by Christian theological standards. The ones I observed always seemed to borrow their debate tactics from atheists, insofar as they used bullying and obfuscation to distract from the fact that their arguments were self-defeating and logically inconsistent. More recent encounters with internet Calvinists have confirmed my earlier view. That's not to say that all, or even most Calvinists are stupid. Many of them are quite intelligent. They've just been brainwashed to have the neo-Gnostic worldview of inherent human inability that Augustine imported into Christianity in the 5th Century and misinterpret Scripture through that lens. Thus, they get extremely frustrated when the cracks in the foundation of that worldview, and its gross incompatibility with the Bible, are brought to light, and tend to understandably lash out as a result.
Great discussion! Always appreciate your work Leighton, it's helping more than you know! God Bless.
Dr. Flowers, thank you for this great interview/discussion, getting right to Dr. Dupree.
The inconsistencies of Calvinism are staggering...how they are all shrugged of with a simple decree of "mystery" is cult-like.
You are right.
What are the inconsistencies?
@@rsizzle4560 My friend, listen to Leighton's videos, he enumerates them very simply.
protestants don't care about logic or the witness of Scriptures - everything relies on strong personal conviction on a ideological system
@@silveriorebelo8045 And Catholics rely on their infallible Papa
Sadly, attaining a PhD and other advanced degrees in whatever field and being successful in publishing academically in that field demands following the party line, call it the sociology or social psychology of your field of study. For example, why are Christians now using BCE and CE? And why are smart guys in the Southern Baptist Convention going with Reformed Theology/Calvinist? In short, because they want to be liked, not because of theological science or philosophy of free-will study advances. This is the case in my only profession/field of school psychology, an applied psychology field. No, you don't need a PhD to know biblically or from daily experience that the Lord gave us free will.
Thank you both for doing the interview. The Bible says one side of the story sounds good until you hear the other side. As a recovering Calvinist, this is encouraging and empowering, so thank you again
Thanks for sharing! So encouraging. Would you mind sharing what the Lord used to first open your eyes to consider that Calvinism was in fact unbiblical? I always find it interesting and so encouraging when people share their testimonies that brought them out of Calvinism. I have many Calvinist brothers and sisters who love Jesus, and who I love dearly. But I SOOO long for them to see how much more gracious, loving, merciful, amazing, and yes, even more “sovereign” our God is in than they ever could have imagined!
I was listening for about 5 mins of a sermon by John Macarthur on Moody radio a few days ago and I couldn't take it anymore. Very cringe and the title was suspicious as if he was smuggling in his context. Turns out he was preaching election. The scriptures were taken so out of context. The usual Rom 8 and John 6. This channel help me see it so much faster.
Interesting you say that. A friend, after becoming a Calvinist, sent me a J Mc sermon. 5 minutes in I pressed the stop button because he was clearly twisting Scripture to suite his theology. As a result I can NOT trust or listen to the man.
@@paulmann9154 I tried to give him a chance and it seems he has his hands in a few things scripturally controversial. I was trying to do a study on eschatology and it's different viewpoints of rapture and I happen to find audio of him saying, "if someone takes the mark of the beast doesn't mean it's permanency." Now still researching it but it's clear he's been in error of scripture for a while. I pray for him.
@@paulmann9154 I used to listen to John Mcarthur, John Piper, Paul Washer all the time and now I honestly can’t it literally makes me sick to the stomach when I listen to them.
2Co 4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Co 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
@@jessethomas3979 I still listen to Jmac but Calvinistic election just sounds like a trainwreck but as far as taking the mark, I think rev 14 makes it clear. I could be wrong as I'm willing to admit but I just don't see that. Thanks for the neutral perspective!
A great interview. Excellent advice at the end, very relevant to some of my feelings and actions in past conversations and in my journey out of Calvinism (I’m not a pastor but still relevant).
I’m listening to every single one of these. I knew I wasn’t alone in my doubts about Calvinism, but I sure felt alone.
Watching from India. Have you written any books? Very good ministry you have . 👏
I love this RUclips channel !
I totally agree that Calvinists are not the enemy and they are our brothers. My sincere curiosity is why these guys don’t see the doctrine as a false gospel since it messes with the work of Christ.
I agree that some who truly trust God may be born again before the Bible is twisted for them to believe in a Calvinist Jesus. However, I doubt someone can be born again when biologically born into this doctrine, because how can you truly trust the Calvinist Jesus? They need to know the true Jesus to have true faith in him verses merely having loyalty. Calvinist have loyalty not faith. True faith is making a good judgement of God, as is exemplified by Sarah in Hebrews 11:11(KJV). You just can’t make a good judgement of the Calvinist Jesus; what Calvinist have is actually loyalty to have “faith” in him even though they “know” he created people he “knew” he predestined for hell. These people have made the judgement that God is “a hard man,” and Jesus said that the person who makes this judgement will be condemned. They are loyal to someone who is worse than the antichrist and are called saints the same way a woman might remain married to a criminal even though she has no faith in her husband. If they are honest with themselves it isn’t really working because without true faith verses mere loyalty there is no genuine joy. Calvinist have wax fruit that looks so real but it isn’t, and nobody knows that better than an ex Calvinist. I recall hearing your testimony and taking note that the joy of your salvation had been restored to you, after you came to know the true Jesus. I believe those who embrace Calvinism after being born again must feel estranged from the Jesus they had once known; they are just loyal people who remain associated the way a woman may stay loyal to a husband she later hears is a criminal or who is unfaithful to her because she doesn’t want to lose the good of what her position in marriage offers, thus avoiding shame in the public eye, disappointment in herself…. She would lose respect in herself if she ever let go of this idol that marriage and it’s benefits had become to her. She convinces herself she is happy, while ignoring the deep ache in her soul because she is strong….a woman of character instead of emotional. She doesn’t require others to love her, for her to show love to them. It’s a cold “love” though based on self righteous “love”( like choosing to “love” eating poop verses truly loving ice cream. Cold character “love” void of true affection is merely charity bestowed from the “greater” on the “ lessor” but God both bestows charity and affection on his kids.). God’s love is void of pride. It’s no wonder your joy was restored, because true faith verses loyalty was restored to you. I’m humbled by the love of God, but I’m also honored, not because I’m better than others, but because I truly belong to him through faith. Whatever truly belongs to God in faith is not only beautiful and highly valuable, it is genuine. Faith that rests in my heart truly has me at peace with him and he with me, verses living life with him out of shear loyalty, even though…..
Although this PhD left Calvinism, his careful, gentle and prudent demeanor indicates that if he was ever really PO'd about the situation, he wisely never let his guard down. Although at one time Dr. Dupree may have felt duped about Calvinism, Curtis, to his credit, was never curt or duplicitous with anyone around him. I'm glad to hear him speak mellifluously about Molinism, since its continued discussion should prevent it from getting moldy.
I see what you did there 🧐
@@DelicueMusic An 'icy' but 'delicuete' comment.
Pastors! Especially well-known ones who have rejected or are doubting Calvinism:
You do an incredible disservice to the Church by withholding your convictions. Soteriology is a significant source of disunity (and even persecution!) in the body of Christ. Many treat it as a gospel issue. We NEED you to speak up. It may be in your best interest to stay quiet but it is in the Church’s best interest that you be open and straightforward about the nuances of this issue.
Correct me if I misunderstood you, but are you saying that Leighton Flowers is causing an unhealthy division amongst the brethren or what?? 🤷
@@twincityccrr No, I’m not saying that at all. Toward the end of the video they discuss how few pastors, especially well-known ones, will speak up if they are leaning against Calvinism because they could lose their jobs or credibility or other opportunities. I see a lot of bullying from the Calvinistic side; the disunity is amongst Christians who lack leadership that offers rounded perspectives. If well-known pastors are doubting Calvinism but saying nothing, they are enabling this bullying and allowing those with honest doubts to feel alone and ostracized. I think the disunity could be bridged by promoting more nuanced dialogue and allowing alternative views to become more mainstream. I’ll see if I can edit my comment to be more clear.
@@tinytina884 Ok. Now, I completely agree with you. I recently had to inform the church that I currently Pastor of my change of position from Calvinism.....The ENTIRE congregation breathed a sigh of relief, because they saw and understood the many misleading projections of Calvinism....
To God Be The Glory..Thank you Tina for clearing that up. Blessings 🙏❤️
@@twincityccrr that’s incredible! I’m glad you had the courage to do that and that your church responded well.
@@tinytina884 Yes. Praise God....
I appreciate your awesome work for our Lord, brother.
This was a great episode, I think I need to buy some books 🤣
I feel there's to much philosophy and theology that takes the simplicity of the word of God bc He tells us to become as a child. There's nothing wrong with either one but it is when ppl feel if you don't say the words they do nor sound like them then you're wrong. The bible is simple and men has made it hard.
I think this too. KISS - When reading the Bible take it in the simplest way possible. If you can't understand something, just put it on the shelf (the part you don't understand, not the Bible!) for the time being and keep reading. God knows what He is doing and it is in the Bible for a reason.
Is there such a thing as a genuine simple faith in Christianity? Surely you must have read the Bible to have a meaningful conviction, and in 2021 a book that size with so much to interpret and decipher is a huge ask and probably beyond anyone without a college degree.
@@punkgoatboy My faith is NOT in Christianity. My faith is in what Jesus did. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice which God required. When we believe what Jesus did then we are reconciled to God because God sees Jesus' sinless perfection, not our sin and imperfection.
I found it very helpful to watch/read overviews of what the Bible is about. I don't necessarily agree with all that they state but in general they give the broad picture of why Jesus did what He did.
@@jobrown8146 but the only way you can know what jesus did, said and represented is to read the Bible. Jesus himself taught almost exclusively with reference to what is written, indeed The Word is synonymous with jesus. All this is to say that the message is nothing without the medium. And the medium is The Bible. This is the heart of protestantism. Sola scriptura is the foundation of the Christian faith since you can't follow jesus without knowing how. And knowing how isn't simple because the Bible isn't simple. That's my point.
@@punkgoatboy I quote from my first reply: "When reading the Bible"
I think the subject of apostasy from Hebrews in the warning passages there are the toughest aspects of Calvinism in the text that I’ve yet to hear how that works out in their system...
What chapter in Hebrews are you referring to that talks about apostasy? 10 or 6?
@@djohnson3093 there are 5 “warning sections” chapters 2, 3, 6, 10 and 12 - for specific verse references you can simply search what is typically referred to as “warning passages in Hebrews”
@@theoutpouring2596
I understand where the warning verses are. I guess I'm asking what they're warning against.
I know many believe they are warning that a believer can lose their salvation.
I don't see it...
If that's even what you're talking about. If not, forgive my misunderstanding.
@@Hoops590 exactly, it collapses the idea of assurance, for once you explore the real nature of the argument of perseverance you realize there is no way to be assured in the present
@@djohnson3093 there is a strong case that all five are warnings against apostasy - the best introduction to this that I’m aware of is from Grant Osborne - he handled the argumentation well in a book called “Four Views on the Warning Passages in Hebrews” - I would agree with Osborne that all five passages are dealing with apostasy and it’s salvific ramifications
I like your old song am I wrong more than this new one.
Yes!
I love to hear that song!
I agree also, the old intro was really good
32:00 good stuff, "how do I nuance my particular perspective on these difficult doctrines ... timelessness, God's divine knowledge ... people are gonna land different places ... it was the exegetical arguments that led me out of Calvinism, not the philosophical ones."
-Leighton Flowers
Thanks!
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi what you mean
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi perhaps sir but who are you O man to talk back to God. If they have rejected Calvinism, then it is God’s will.
I've used the Rich Young Ruler to refute Calvinism before too. The idea that God effectually calls sinners to Himself through Irresistible Grace, but somehow it's harder for a rich man to be saved? it makes zero sense.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi No one said the Rich Young Ruler was saved. You're missing the point.
If God Unconditionally Elects Particular Individuals for Redemption, and then Effectually Calls them through Irrestisable Grace, then what is it about saving a Rich Man, that gives God such a hard time?
Why does Almighty God (under Calvinism) have a harder time saving a rich person than a poor person?
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi You’re self deceived. Your cruel Calvinite god is giving you Evanescent Grace!!!!!....!!!!!
I went to a church for 30 years, from my childhood too, before I ever learned of my pastor being a Calvinist. Wonder why so many feel the need to conceal it.
Thank you. I am of the tradionalist/provisionist persuasion. However, an interesting thought is that when Jesus called his disciples, there seem to have been an irresistible grace. The says that straightway they followed him. I have often wondered about their response, that none questioned the calling. He just called and they responded. it seems that in this situation Calvinism prevails. Any thoughts?
I realize this reply comes months after the original post, but here is my answer to it. There is no reason whatsoever (other than desiring Calvinism to be true and reading it into that situation, as they do with their pet prooftexts) to think that Jesus' disciples were irresistibly called or that "Calvinism prevails" in that situation. Jesus called many disciples, not only the Twelve. He selected 70 others from among His followers and sent them out to preach (Luke 10:1-20). Scripture also records some men that Jesus called who resisted Him and did not become His disciples. Probably the best known of these was the rich young ruler who became sorrowful and left when Jesus told him to sell his possession and follow Jesus (Matthew 19:16-22; Luke 18:18-23). There were others as well, including two men who made excuses for not following Jesus when He called them, whose accounts are told in Luke 9:59-62. Peter also initially resisted Jesus' calling, due to his feelings of guilt at his sinfulness, but ended up joining Him along with Andrew, James and John (Luke 5:8).
It all comes down to free-will-Best explained in the clearest book on
this topic!-"Where Calvinism goes wrong!" by Brother Robert
@49:18 "what schools or literature would you recommend"... The literature you need is called the Bible ! the school you need is your local assembly/ church! Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit!
JOHN 14:26
But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.. . folks are talked into Calvinism by seminary schools and false teachers / preachers because no one reading the Bible on their own could ever arrive to any "ism" / denominations..
Amen!!
God has predetermined (predestinated) that those who believe in His Son, will be saved.
1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, *_because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe._*
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
And he said unto them, Go ye into *_all the world,_* and preach the gospel to every creature.
[16] *_He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned._*
Romans 10:9 KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and *_shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved._*
What difference does it make to believe truth matters, if we are unwilling to experience anything unpleasant from speaking and living the truth?
Truth without courage is useless.
CUMBERLAND Presbyterian rejected the Westminister Confession of Faith. They left the Calvinist teaching in the 1800s.
If only all Christians ascribed to being a "scriptarian," rather than a religious denomination.
Sorry autocorrect messed up Westminster......and wrote Westminister.
Thank you sirs for the boldly revealing the truth. I’m presently reading your The Potter’s Promise and it helps me a lot in understanding the traditionalist view of Christianity. I wonder if you can suggest some similar good books to read on this topic. Thanks sir.
Great interview. Great book recommendations at about the 55:00 minute mark.
Believe the word of God not doctrines of men and their philosophy. The Gospel is simple so that ANY man can understand it without going to a seminar. God came to save the sinners not the righteous. My Question to a calvinist would be if they believe in luck . Because in their view the thief on the cross was just lucky he happened to be at the right place at the right time or is it that God made him a criminal then He made sure that he gets crucified at the same time with Christ so that he can be saved. It doesn't make sense considering that calvinists believe in perseverance of the believer . People should stay away from doctrines that contradict passages in the bible or try to use metal gymnastics to fit their doctrine.
the protestant Gospel is obviously false, in systematic contradiction with Scripture.... and it was invented by Calvin...
@@silveriorebelo8045Protestant != Calvinism. Unless you meant Reformed.
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." (Romans 9:10, NASB)
Amazing video
Question to Christians, people who are born again. The Tulip seems to paint God has very unjust. If calvinism is true.
1. Can you believe in a unjust God?
2. If you believe in an unjust God, could you serve an unjust God?
I guess if it was true God was unjust, I would have to accept it, but I couldn't serve him. In fact when calvinism was presented to me 13 years ago on CARM, I couldn't refute it and it really troubled me and I said to God, if you really are this God, I can't serve you, you will have to send me to hell, after all God knows a persons heart, so there is no point trying to deceive God, he knows. I was just upfront with God and told him. I accepted the reality that if calvinism was true, I would have to go to hell. I think that is the reality. I am not sure if it works the other way around for calvinists, because our God is just, merciful and loves everyone, he may allow for their weakness in being led astray and believing in a lie.
A few days later at speakers corner in London, still being troubled by this shocking biblical revelation, a preacher came up to me and said, calvinism is false. I don't know why he said it, he just did and then I knew God was telling me through this preacher, don't worry Lee, I am not like that. He just came out with it, I kind of know when God is speaking to me through people some times.
If you truly trust in God, he can always find a way of giving you peace. I just didn't have the biblical knowledge to refute it at the time, I trusted totally in God, not my own understanding. God lifted that burden from me, I was a peace again.
Boring story, but was interested to know if other Christians would be prepared to serve an unjust God, seems crazy to even suggest it, but calvinists are willing to serve an unjust God, they don't seem to have an issue with it, well if they do, they ain't admitting it, that is for sure.
I couldn't agree more brother! God bless you more and even more!
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi
We are discussing the calvinist theology of God creating people for hell.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi
Your not my authority, the word of God is, don't try and misuse scripture to try and force your unbiblical calvinism on me. Calvinism is false, it can easily be proved it's false.
How many calvinist go out pushing their calvinist gospel to unbelievers? None and why is that, because no one is going to listen to a gospel where you tell them you can't believe the gospel, because it's all down to God, whether you get chosen. So basically calvinism makes the gospel worthless, useless. No one will trust or care for a God, where you tell them, he created people for hell for his own glory, that he doesn't love everyone.
Matthew 5:47-48
And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
See that, God loves everyone, because he is perfect.
I see how you go around branding people who you claim are not saved, because they reject calvinism. So you need to believe in calvinism to be saved, do you.
You sound no different to the catholics, who claim you have to accept the authority of the pope and the Roman catholic church. Lets face it, old John calvin liked persuing heretics too, like Rome. I wonder what the fruit of a so called Christian is, who persecutes people, good or bad? After all, it's him that was the true founder of your doctrinal beliefs.
Your calvinism in a nut shell.
Hey, you know that Jesus you first believed in and got saved by, throw him away, here look, here is a new Jesus for you to believe in. If you don't believe in this new version, your not saved.
Yeah, read it Michael, that was you. What you have been actually saying sounds demonic, doesn't it? You have to believe in calvinism to be saved. This is where your calvinism has led you, who knows where it might lead you in the future, hyper calvinism, who knows you may even become an atheist next, some calvinists do, calvinism causes them to stop believing altogether.
What is it like to serve an unjust god, that's what the calvinist god is, unjust. He creates people for hell, just like old Allah of the muslims does. Tell me is Allah of the Quran, is he just, if he creates people for hell? Tell me is he unjust for creating people for hell, I wonder if you will dare to answer that one.
We believe in two different Jesus's, that's a fact.
Sounds like Calvinists are prideful, and think GOD is like them; because no matter what the Calvinist says or preaches, he still thinks there are those who are going to hell because they were not chosen to be saved, no matter if they believe GOD.
JESUS CHRIST said HE would not turn anyone away, not a bruised reef either.
Glory To GOD, our LORD and SAVIOUR!!!
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Even the devil himself is more compassionate and accepting than your Calvinite version of god. He doesn’t turn anyone away!!!!!......!!!!!!
When Israel was young how I loved him! From Egypt i did call him to be my son (sounds predestined) The more the prophets called them, the more they went from them: they sacrificed unto the Baalim, and burned incense to graven images. It was I who taught Ephraim to walk; I took them on my arms; but they knew not that I healed them. I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love; and I was to them as they that lift up the yoke on their jaws; and I laid food before them.
They shall not return into the land of Egypt; but the Assyrian shall be their king, because they refused to return to me. And the sword shall fall upon their cities, and shall consume their bars, and devour them, because of their own counsels. And my people are bent on backsliding from me: though they call them to him that is on high, none at all will [c]exalt him.
How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I cast thee off, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboiim? my heart is turned within me, my compassions are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man.....This is a word picture of a loving father, taking care of a rebellious child.....an entire people....unwilling to destroy them even in their going astray.
Aren’t the people who won’t publicly own their “non-Calvinism” being disingenuous? It’s more than a little deceptive.
I think that's a bit unclear. There are a lot of alternatives to Calvinism. "Non-Calvinism" is a blanket term. If there were a provisionist at a Wesleyan or Calvinist church promoting Provisionism without being explicit about it, that could be deceptive. But just holding a position isn't inherently deceptive.
@@EssenceofPureFlavor I disagree...Especially if they’re pastoring a Calvinistic church.
@@rebsince71 Of course. I guess I saw that as self evident that a Calvinist pastor of a Calvinist church isn't being deceptive.
@@EssenceofPureFlavor I’m saying that you, if you are being genuine in your beliefs, would necessarily teach the way you believe. I don’t believe you can “hold a belief” without it affecting your teaching. You’re either teaching something you don’t believe, or you’re teaching something the church doesn’t stand for...Either way, I believe it to be unethical.
@@rebsince71 All beliefs are interconnected, not just soteriology. By that logic teaching is inherently deceptive. Can't say I agree.
Nothing wrong with being a PHD.
The sheep concept with Calvinism perspective means ethier God is lying or He can't fillful His word.
He draws all men yet He only saves those who He elected before the foundation of the world.
It would seem that under Calvinism God is trying to save all but failing. When you take the perspective of us believing after hearing the Gospel making salvation conditional does it make sense that God can draw all, give a genuine offer of salvation, and leave it to each of us to accept the truth or reject it. IE we have common Grace.
This way God can draw all men but not fail when not all are saved. Hallelujah.
If God the Father draws those to Jesus which includes Judas, will he be raised up on the last day along with the other apostles? I think not. So, what sets Judas apart from the rest of the disciples who warrants "being raised on the last day"....isn't it because he did not repent?
John 6:44 - what if the Holy Spirit alone is drawing us. I think that is plausible. That God is at work to draw us to Christ. Does not say he forced us. I believe God was drawing me for years. Thank you Jesus that I responded and am saved.
John 6:44 IS NOT hard for a non Calvinist. It doesn't say that they WILL come. It simply that they cannot come unless God draws. This makes it clear that if God draws you can come, it doesn't mean you will. But if you will come the God will raise you up again.
The question is who is drawn? Just some? Or all? Before Jesus's death He didn't draw all, but as soon as Jesus was crucified ALL were drawn (see John 12:32).
Calvinists automatically accuse you of being a universalist if you dare say that all were drawn. Especially if you dare point to Romans 5:18. But there it literally says that it CAME to all men! It doesn't say that it was received by all men!!!
Calvinists make a break in the Trinity if they deny that it means all. Because they will say that in John 12 it is Jesus speaking not God. But Jesus IS God and He ONLY speaks what God has Him say.
"He came to his own, but his own did not RECEIVE him."
Here is Jesus being a FAILURE again, according to Calvinist logic.
Good point. This fits in with the sense that there is a universal atonement (as we are all going to the same resurrection, even the wicked) but only those who are united to Christ will experience Christ’s glory in the resurrection positively.
Calvinism is slipping. It isnt as cool as it was
33:00
How do the demon possesed calvinists deal with John 1:9?
We (demon-possessed calvinists 🤣) read it in context and go at the least up to v13 😉
Good to see there are less and less brain dead scholars rising through the ranks... Nothing worse than the echo chambers of Reformed Colleges... If you are gonna do a theological degree I suggest going somewhere that is going to stretch you with people studying with and teaching you from different persuasions. It will definitely help you grow and better prepare you for life and ministry after. From a person who is ever grateful for his time studying at a non-denom college!!!!
You just gotta love a theology so steeped in intellectual arrogance that it can confidently assert with no ambiguity whatsoever that any and all who disagree with its conclusions about God were simply never true believers to begin with. Anyone who recants the tenants of Calvinism was never a true Calvinist. Anyone who walks away from their faith in Christ was never a true Christian. Anyone who draws a different conclusion from scripture than they do simply isn't intellectual enough to grasp these deep and profound insights concerning their faith. If they could see the arrogance they display toward those on the other side of the aisle, they would be ashamed. That's a really big IF, however.
Biggest and most common accusations against Leighton is that he claims he was a Calvinist and clearly that’s a lie. Same is said about Nabeel Quereshi that he was never a Muslim. It’s a sad way to dismiss everything they say.
Qureshi……forget how to spell his name. Miss that dear soul though, I would listen to him just to hear his love and passion for the God who saved him.
Not a very convincing exegesis of J6:44. He states the verse correctly, but he limited the audience to just those Jews who learned of the Father. So that's not good. He states it's a hard verse, but offers no good explanation of what it means.
Then He quickly added that the verb draw is paralleled it to J12:32, "all men".
Since not all men come, there's a problem in harmonizing J6 to J12, but he ignores it.
Sorry, that's a different context there. That verb, draw, is unto judgment, not salvation. Seems most miss this fact, but Jesus and John talk a lot about Jesus as Judge and even Paul does too. Everyone stands before the judgement seat of Christ because of the cross as well. The cross is where we find both salvation and judgment.
So no, the draw, in J12 does not parallel to the draw, in J6.
Hey, Todd.
I don’t usually respond to comments, because I don’t really have the time, but you brought a substantive critique, which I appreciate.
Just to clarify, I’m not saying John 6:44 is only for the Jews who learned from the Father, just that they are the immediate context.
I have no problem admitting difficult verses for my views. I think every view has its difficulties.
FWIW, I have shifted a bit in my views since the interview. I now am more willing to embrace the tension I see in Scripture between sovereignty and responsibility.
I’ll have to give more thought to the verb in John 12:32 in that context. It’s a interesting point, but I’m curious how you can say it’s explicitly for judgment there. It seems to me that a better approach is to tie it with the coming of the Greeks to Jesus, which shows that salvation would go to the Gentiles and not just the Jews.
Again, thanks for listening and thanks for your comment.
Grace and peace,
Curtis
@@curtisdupree4430
Hey Curtis thanks for your response.
I can't say I share the same "every view has it's difficulties" view with you. I've heard people say that before though. I don't find any exegetical difficulties with with what I believe soterologically any more. I've tested it all upside down and backwards at this point and it seems air tight. I invite any pokes though. If I'm wrong I'd like to believe what's right. Now, covenantalism, that's another story. I'm still trying to piece together things there.
I was deceived for so long and ended up losing my wife, family and friends after leaving the cult I was in, it's one of the reasons I spend time listening to opposing views of mine so I don't end up in another cult. I don't care what's true from a traditional sense or consensus sense. I care what's true based on what I can defend. I've let go of many traditional views that I grew up with. So to help with not getting caught up in some new view, I throw everything I believe into the meat grinder, because the truth will always break the grinder. I only mention the cult part because I don't hold to these doctrines or others as merely intellectual. I've lost everything to hold on to the truth. They held to a works based gospel and not a grace based gospel. It's very sneaky how they did it.
So, to the point. Where are Jews who learned from the Father, explicitly stated for the immediate context as you asserted? I realize you're saying you're not limiting it to them, but if that's the case, I don't see what your point is in making that distinction in the first place, in the video or as you reiterate here. Other non-Calvinist do make that point to limit the group of those being drawn to "those who learn of the Father". I find this disingenuous because the word used is "everyone" in v45. It keeps the same context flowing from 44, "no one" and into 46, "anyone", to 47 "he" regarding anyone who believes. It's not exegetically possible to limit 45 to a certain learned Jew and import that into 44, 46, and 47. Kinda destroys the promise of life. Again, not saying you are limiting, but non-Calvinists listening to when you say this will have confirmation bias of the limiting point.
The second point. Jn12
I see the Greeks mentioned in v20, but I fail to see the relevance of the point you make. Again, I've heard this before from both sides, but it seems Jesus isn't moved by this. Just like when his own mother and siblings showed up to see Him in Mat 12:47.
I was never satisfied with the typical Calvinist argument to insert "kinds" here, unlike 1Tim where the context warrants inserting "kinds" to "all". The "all" here in 12:32 seems inclusive of everyone in the context. One thing I learned, yet I never hear about is all the judgment language used by Jesus in John's gospel. Since the word "draw" has no inherent salvific definition, I see no reason to apply salvation to the use of the word draw in 12:32, especially since judgment is the context of the prior verse. Whereas, the use of draw in 6:44 is salvific since it limits the coming ones to those drawn and ties into the coming ones from v37. So the ones coming, are of the same group and it's explicitly salvific in nature exegetically. This is not the case in 12:32. I see no other way to harmonize J6 to J12. Making J12 equal to J6 creates a massively bad math problem resulting in universalism since J12 is inclusive of all people of all time and J6 is limited to less than that AND results in salvation. They can't logically be the same groups.
Further, John 3:14-15 sets the stage for what John means to teach with the cross, both of salvation AND judgment which helps support why I believe the draw in Jn 12 is unto judgment and not salvation. John summarizes this in v16, which seems to be universally misunderstood. But that's a story for a further reply if you're interested.
"FWIW, I have shifted a bit in my views since the interview. I now am more willing to embrace the tension I see in Scripture between sovereignty and responsibility."
- Interesting
God Bless Curtis
Knowing God through Jesus is the main thing. Education means nothing.
Aka. Even Academics Can Understand the Bible.
Every once in a while, but it’s hard :)
“I’d like the chance to shoot at an educated man once in my life” Augustus McCrae
Lonesome Dove
if calvinism is true, then I rejected calvinism before the foundation of the earth.
I can’t stop laughing. 😂
Spend less time reading man’s work, and spend more time reading the scripture, praying, and fasting
Molinism can't fit with Calvinism, imo. Libertarian freewill is inherent to Molinism, and all forms of Calvinism deny it.
That all depends on everything. You see you have unconditional election saying “that whoever he chooses” and the. You have what modern determinism is “unless you wear a red shirt you cannot be unconditionally elect. (Quote “unless you vote for trump you can’t be a born again Christian). So you usually find the most headline determinists underlying unconditional election and the hardest in promoting conditional election . So what people say they believe and how they live that out are two different things. We all have free will... how do you tell... everyone make there own cidjtion by which we unconditionally elected... (full immersion, chosen before the beginning or the world, etc etc) you know it’s the dog that eats the vomit, not the sheep right ? And if you’re worshipping beezelbub then you’re a fly not a sheep, a sheep , a true sheep, has no interest in eating vomit nor eating the turds and calling the. “Good”. They recognise the turd and they turn away... in their droves
Because he embraced the foolishness of God which is wiser than man. ✝️📖🕊
Please let your guests speak more and you less. I wanted to hear what he says.
The apostle Paul was a Calvinist. "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. " [2 Timothy 1:9]
So was Luke, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48] See also John 3:8, 6:44-45, 17:2. Eph.1:4-5.
How can anyone respect someone who so blatantly teach wrong doctrine, like Piper. The man is nothing more than a walking eisigesis encyclopedia! Sure, he can say some accurate things once in a while, much like a broken clock, its accurate twice a day, but why not, instead, read the Bible for yourself and trust the Holy Spirit to teach you!
Cringey title
Leaving Calvinism is a failure in his faith - not a failure of Calvinism! A PhD or not, apparently was not enough to save him! This proves it!
go pray
try again Ben, it’s your failure, do better Ben, much better . Your choice Ben.
Strange how you complain when Calvinist intellectuals treat you with such condescension but you never refrain from treating us with the same condescension by calling us shallow and namby pamby
He was addressing the prosperity gospel. Which is false.
Thank you for addressing this . I am ever embarrassed by the third grade name-calling and rude rhetoric. Please forgive and know as "family"we are called to eat at the table of Christ.
I’m afraid you misheard. He doesn’t call Calvinists nambypamby. He does, actually, show a lot of restraint.
That, however, isn’t the big issue, luckily for you!
@@terraloft nope that's not true
Jesus started one church and said it would last forever
The Roman Catholic Church
Lol!😂😂❗️
It will last until mystery Babylon is judged by God in Revelation! Sorry pal!
@@johndisalvo6283
All Christians on earth were against condoms from Jesus till 1930. Then all Christians changed
Except the Roman Catholic Church.
God NEVER Changes and
the Roman Catholic Church NEVER changes.
Then in 1994.
Bill Clinton and the UN decided to make abortion a universal right. One man stopped them.
Pope John Paul ll.
Where was your church?
Oh yeah, no where.
@@PInk77W1 I don’t usually get into dialogues on here, but the claim that the RCC never changes is historically ridiculous. Post Vatican II, Rome went from declaring Protestants “anathema” to “separated brethren.” Priests were only forbidden to marry officially around the 11th century. Transubstantiation wasn’t canonized until after Aquinas. Also, research The Avignon Papacy or the Cadaver Synod. Those things don’t take place any more.
@@PInk77W1 I also don’t remember Jesus or the Apostles addressing condoms.
Leighton- just your face is so irritating - the one you put on your video...really :)!
I bet he’s WAY more good looking than you🤮