I love how you explain that when we are defending the autonomous free will of man, what we are really defending is the Holiness of God. I am so sick of Calvinists claiming that our doctrines are man-centered. Yes, we spend a lot of time focusing on how evil, and wicked, and wretched man is, and how man alone is responsible for the evils committed, this isn't to glorify man, but the exact opposite, it is to highlight how loving, and kind, and patient, and merciful, and holy, and righteous, and gracious God is. All things that are undermined by Calvinism.
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't follow the teaching of the Hebrew Bible, which clearly shows that man has the agency to accept G-d's Word and repent of his sin.
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't follow the teaching of the Hebrew Bible, which clearly shows that man has the agency to accept G-d's Word and repent of his sin.
@@whaddoyoumeme does Vocab Malone know you're watching this. But in all seriousness I do not know how close Vocab is to James White (though I do know that they are friends). I'd love to hear some of the discussions you and Vocab must have.
You know what I just thought? If I was a Calvinist I wouldn't want to have kids. Because there is a 50/50 chance that child won't be elect so by having a kid you are possibly giving life to someone you are going to love unconditionally but might be condemned to hell from birth What a sad doctrine
Give me some of your data. Where did you come across this knowledge that its "50-50" whether or not one will be elect? I know exactly how to ensure my children will be elect. If we sincerely believe the gospel we are elect. The end.
Michael Chandler Keaton I'm taking about Calvinist. They believe man is incapable of surely believing the gospel or responding to it unless they pre determined by God to do so. So as my question stands I'm saying, IF someone believes that. Why would you ever have a child knowing there's a chance they won't be elect and therefore no matter what you teach them they will hate God and reject God because they are 100% incapable of loving him.
+True Christian No. We believe man will only believe if God grants him the grace and draws him, which is what scripture teaches. Natural man will never ever choose God on his own, because he is radically sinful. But if we believe we are saved. So yes in Calvinism, to believe is to be elect, just as scripture states. Nobody is desperately wanting and trying to believe, but being denied by God on Calvinism. Its God's mercy. If God doesn't draw men they will never want to respond to Him. If someone does sincerely believe then they are of the elect, 100% of the time. There is no 50/50 chance.
How is rape predestined to happen to bring about God's glory if the victim never accepts Christ or believes in God? Not all victims of evil turn to God
My suspicion is Calvinists might answer with logic similar to: Calvinistic Premise 1: God does everything for his own glory. Calvinistic Premise 2: God exhaustively decrees *everything* that happens (including that rape). Calvinistic Conclusion: Therefore, that rape works to God's glory, as does God creating the victim, eternally intending and decreeing that she would suffer eternally in Hell. 😳 If we impose those (unBiblical and repugnant, imho) premises upon God, then (it seems to me) the above conclusion becomes inescapable. Calvinism relies heavily on logic... except where it doesn't. Note that this Calvinistic "glory" seems (to me) to resemble that of a narcissistic, sadistic dictator far more than anything consistent with the character of the Biblical God. In contrast, the Biblical God “so loved the world that he gave his only Son” (John 3:16) to suffer public humiliation, disgrace, and unimaginable pain to save sinners... while asserting this Son “is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature”. (Hebrews 1:3, NASB) It seems to me this Biblical “glory” (apparently linked to or even based in God's self-sacrificial love) is entirely different from whatever the Calvinistic concept is. (Do Calvinists ever define this?) I’m curious what others think of my thoughts that the above type of Calvinistic thinking may explain the apparent anger / harshness that some (not all) Calvinists seem to exude, as well as the elitism which seems woven into the DNA of Calvinism¹. Might these Calvinists simply be reflecting² the character of their God? ____________ ¹ Calvinists often claim their theology obviates any basis for elitism. Yet, if God chose *me* and NOT most people, the conclusion that I am somehow special becomes difficult to avoid… unless God’s election truly is completely meaningless and arbitrary³, such that he cares not one bit more for those he died to save than for those he created to torment eternally. ² Alternatively, might some become Calvinists because the theology reflects their own character? ³ Do any Calvinists affirm God’s election to be fundamentally meaningless and arbitrary? Or does his decision have a meaningful basis that simply remains inscrutable from our perspective? If the latter, then even if we do not yet know it, is there not something fundamentally different (and, per God’s judgement, preferred) about the elect than those created for destruction? Per this reasoning, either God makes meaningless, arbitrary decisions about the eternal destinies of his creations, or Calvinistic elitism is justified.
@@christophersnedeker2065 well it's hard to fathom how one could be guilty if God determined the rape. It would actually make God guilty. It would be the same as a man putting a glove on and strangling someone to death and then hold the glove guilty while claiming to be a loving person.
This is an amazing video. We can discuss the 5 points and who's right all day long, but the practical "rubber meets the road" aspect of this is that Calvinism handicaps apologetics. This kid took two prominent, experienced apologists and totally owned them. If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it possible.
I am still waiting for your response from your channel to me . When I laid out the doctrine of election used by John is the gospel of John. I have message you three times. You gave me one response previously before my demonstration. All you said is the elect is Yashua and people become the elect by there free will in there Faith with no proof text at all. That is why I gave you a short but accurate demonstration in the gospel of John through Historical Contextual hermeneutics and Exegesis through context. Still waiting for your refute from my demonstration. I won't hold my breathe. And anyone reading this who believe you have free will in coming to Yahweh. Proof text a verse. There is not one verse in the New testament of any type of free will. We have limited will not free. Some one accept my challenge on free will.provide verses through context. Every scriptures God choosing the elect is used in a singular verb never a plural verb. Proof text one verse anybody.And someone accept my challenge to refute my demonstration of the book of John in the doctrine of election without deflecting or Eisegesis the scriptures. Just message me and I will demonstrate the doctrine of election from John . But don't bother if you can not address the specific scriptures I provide through context and Exegesis.
19 minutes into this and I'm hearing Leighton talk about Redemption. I want to say that the idea of redemption can fully destroy this idea of determinism. If God determines literally all things, then what's the point of redeeming them? Isn't Redemption towards the fallen person, towards the person who has done wrong? If God makes us do wrong, then what sense are we truly redeemed?
Lizica Dumitru exactly, in reformed theology God sent His Son to redeem everything that He determined. He sent His Son to redeem all of His own mess-ups.
@@lizicadumitru9683 Exactly! You've hit upon the answer: God had to clean up after himself! 😳 😛 🙄 I began typing more, but extending this line of reasoning grew so blasphemous, so quickly, my heart proved unwilling to post it. 🤮
Thank you so much for spending the time that goes into making these. As a newer Christian, the reformed theological interpretation of scripture left me sick to my stomach. Your videos are such a blessing.
I thank God for determining that there will be a remnant out there bringing attention to the issues with Calvinism and teaching those of us who had no clue that there is danger in that theology. Thank you Mr Flowers
I would absolutely be trembling in my shoes, if I had attributed the heinous, horrific, sinful acts to an almighty, Loving God...And then had the audacity to teach these beliefs to His vulnerable, unlearned creations...You will not be held guiltless...
I did watch this some time ago and they did seem flustered but I couldn’t understand why at that time due to me not understanding Calvinism back then as I do now due to the help of your ministry and my own studying. This debate is now so much clearer Thankyou for highlighting this.
Eric Rogers Sneering because Dr Flowers mispronounced 'purposelessly' is not a valid counter-argument. Would you also sneer at people who misspell words or make grammatical errors? I have family members who are dyslexic and, consequently, have difficulty with spelling words correctly. I also have friends and colleagues who have difficulty with the correct pronunciation of some words. Mispronouncing or misspelling words does not imply that someone is incapable of making an intelligent argument and it does not entitle anyone else to sneer at them. Your juvenile comment says much more about you, and portrays you negatively, than it does Dr Flowers.
I believe I have stated before on this channel, that if I was an atheist I'd be a Calvinist. If I was an atheist who's purpose is to de-convert Christians, which seems high on the priority list of most vocal atheists, I would memorize large numbers of quotations from past and current Calvinists and use their statements to 'prove' how heartless and evil the God of the Bible is 'in believers' own words."
I'm so tired of the Calvinist "you don't understand our system" bullshit. If God created you with a nature that can only desire to rebel, then you are a rebelling robot. Great video Leighton.
He's unwilling to acknowledge the horrible weakness in his position, and continues to hold on it being a strength. He's gone this far as one of the chief defenders of calvinism, his whole career is based on it. To give that up would require him abandoning his entire career.
He also refuses to call out bad teachers and even endorses many. I don't know his heart to say he isn't saved but his actions suggest a complete disregard for God's word and for following the example of Christ. Anyone concerned with God's word should separate from James and if they're teachers and leaders, they should warn their sheep of him and those he promotes
The fact that God uses evil actions to accomplish his good purpose, and yet not responsible for the evil actions is written ALL OVER the Old Testament. Excellent job Dr. Flowers. Unlike James White you have nothing to hide, because you are speaking the truth.
Jonathan Schaffner absolutely! God is sovereign, ruling as He chooses. He has chosen to give man free agency to do as they will. However, man’s free agency will in no way thwart Gods will. One of God’s wills is that all who believe in Jesus receive salvation, justification, adoption as His children; in fact God has already predestinated that for all who believe.
@Jonathan Schaffner - this is an excellent question that undermines Leighton Flower's position. Nowhere in the Bible does it say God "allowed" Joseph's brothers to make these choices. Here's what the Bible actually says: [+] You planned evil against me; *God planned it* for good to bring about the present result - the survival of many people. (Gen 50:20) Note that BOTH the brothers AND God planned Joseph's kidnapping. It says "planned", not "allowed". [+]And He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread. He sent a man before them, Joseph, [who] was sold as a slave. (Ps 105:16-17) Not that God *sent* Joseph. But if you can show me a verse that says "God does not plan these things; He allows them", I'll happily reconsider.
Tim Foster The brothers originally wanted to kill Joseph, Rueben suggested throwing him in a pit. Rueben’s intention was to rescue him later in an attempt to regain his father’s favour. Judah, seeing an Ishmaelite caravan, suggested selling Joseph into slavery. This is free will, God permitted it because Joseph has a long way to go before he can fulfill the vision God gave him. Unless you wish to suggest that God arranged for the caravan to come at this time, sent Joseph the visions so his youthful arrogance can boast and land him envy.
@@martytu20 Jesus came to me one night and gave me a prophecy about who I was going to marry. A couple months later I took some acid and wrote the girl a letter, the next day I went to mail it, and this force was opposing me the whole way and when I got to the post office I couldn't lift my arm up to the mailbox. I tried and tried and couldn't do it , I drove away and then drove back and I tried again and with all my might I lift it up my arm and put the letter in the mailbox. So without a doubt there was an angel there holding me back or doing something trying to stop me from mailing that stupid letter I wrote what I was tripping on acid
Pride tends to rise up in people when they're defending something they know/are afraid is wrong. If they're focused on seeking truth regardless if it makes them right or wrong they're more likely to display love and humility. My two cents.
Hi Mary, I can see how arrogance and pride could be attributed to a Calvinist. From my point of view (non-Calvinist), it seems to me that any Scripture is viewed through Calvinistic lenses meaning that everything they read from the Scripture points to their beliefs and they are unwilling to see an opposing viewpoint. A Miner concept would be to suggest "they have married the vein". When a Prospector visits a Mine and is looking for evidence there is Gold within...every thing he sees "proves" to him that the mine has gold inside - he ignores the other evidences that show the opposite, refusing to acknowledge opposing evidences. I have a friend who is a Reformed Calvinist and he pointed me to a verse, read it out loud to me and exclaimed this proved his point. When looking at it closely, it proved nothing of the sort and I realized his Calvinistic Lenses kept him from seeing anything but what he wanted to believe. This demeanor can sometimes be seen as arrogant and/or prideful but I don't believe that is how Dr. White and Pastor Jeff desire to be seen. My 2.5 cents.
@Todd Wilburn I agree, I've been speaking with a couple calvinistic Lutherans and when I ask them how they resolve apparent contradictions in their system they just quote more verses as if one verse (one they interpret to be calvinistic) somehow cancels out the apparent contradiction and even other verses of scripture, and they just continue to quote verses assuming their own interpretation of them thinking they somehow prove heir point even when the verse doesn't even address the question being asked. But this is the case for many people and their positions, they fail to understand that reading the Bible always involves interpretation at some level, most protestants fall into this category due to the doctrine of Sola scriptura, I'm sure none of them desire to be viewed as arrogant but some come off much more arrogant than others, White being one of them, pride has always, and will always, be a big stumbling block for some, esspecially when they make themselves the final arbiter and interpreter of the scriptures.
@@marydetray6776 It's difficult to have a "what does the text say" conversation with another when their mind is made up on their viewpoint before the conversation or Bible Study starts. I feel the most important aspect of disagreeing is that so long as it doesn't take away from the most important aspects of Biblical Teaching (ex: Salvation through Faith alone in Christ alone) we can 'agree to disagree' and still remain friendly to our brothers & sisters in Christ. There are a lot of topics that are grey areas or ones the Scripture does not address. These shouldn't divide the Body of Christ. Certainly my demeanor (or another's) can be seen as prideful or arrogant depending on the words I use, the way I speak them and my body language at the time. I try and be careful with what and the way I say things but am not always successful. Hopefully those who are seen as prideful or arrogant can take a moment to view themselves from an objective position and make changes if any are needed. Myself included. I used myself as the focus in the above paragraph so as not to be seen as pointing fingers at any one person or a group. I find my thoughts are accepted better if directed at me rather than potentially being seen as accusatory. Hope that makes sense. Great chatting with you!
This was a fantastic video. I can’t believe people are accusing you of being a Mormon sympathizer. They are unreasonable and haven’t listened to your words or this debate. Thanks Leighton
The absolute smugness of Jeff Durbin is enough to turn people off from Calvinism. Jeff Durbin got angry because here’s some young Mormon making the Calvinist God look horrendous & he knew it.
At the end of the day it all comes down to "you're too dumb to understand", "I'm better than you", "you don't get it"... These guys just wanted a one man audience for their arrogance.
Calvinists are great at explaining their stance most the time, but are terribly terribly bad at explaining the other side, or even understanding it. It's like they were pre-destined to be blind and ignorant towards free thinking.
From my first hand life experience, they rely on "You better believe what I believe or you're condemned". End of discussion. That way they never need to study or think through all the points of their religious system.
Im so glad you addressed this! I had very similar thoughts when i watched this live. I was disappointed they got bogged down on a this. The mormon was smart to get them to go down this road and expose the weakness of their stance.
"the evil committed would have been pointless"... This quote reminds me of when I shared that "Jesus died for all" with my Calvinist friend the response was "Then Jesus died for people who wouldn't believe... so He failed in His mission." But the Bible doesn't say that. It's the same kind of false dichotomy you mentioned: either Jesus failed or He only died for the elect only... choose one. Thank you for your content.
Young dude just said "I want to let you know that you have a father in heaven that loves you." Jeff Dirtbag:"YoUrE nOt AlLoWeD tO dO tHaT oN oUr RaDiO sTaTiOn. "
Calvinists have a scary God, I think my anxiety would keep me on edge for life if I was one... while everyone else ("in love") doubts my salvation around me until my last breath.
The Calvinist God truly is a cosmic Tyrant and affirms all Atheistic Indictments against Him........I am so glad that The Biblically God is nothing like him
Amazing, I have never heard someone explicitly say that God desired the holocaust. If this doesnt debunk the deterministic worldview what will? The thing that bothers me is that we as believers know Gods heart, and this is beyond theoligical and philosophical reasoning. Its sad to see these guys stuck in there doctrines
Angeliqua Serenity. If that black person is carnal and is male and very attracted to white females, then maybe, the history and doctrine fade into the horizon.
Exactly. Johnathan Edwards was an unrepentant slave owner. Much of the southern slave owners were Calvinists. Apartheid originated from Calvinistic teachings. Compare to NonCalvinists such as John Wesley and John Wiburforce who were pro-abolitionists.
daughter of God Amen!...James 1 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: God doesn't tempt, he reasons together with us...which is why the believers go where they go and the unbelievers go where they go!....The unbelievers WOULD NOT come to God for refuge! Isaiah 1 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
A marionette has external strings. A sock puppet has a hand in it. The are both controlled. Calvinists proclaim “There are no strings!” Okay, but there’s a hand inside.
The irony of the combination pictures in the background behind James White and the guest. Behind James White: “Babies murdered here” Behind the guest: Calvin with sunglasses and “Calvinism.” Like, NOBODY on set was like “Heeeeeey...waitaminutehere...”
I really wish more of the "moderate" Calvinists truly understood the implications of their theological system. Because if they did, there would be a lot of them leaving this behind.
They are only being consistent in their beliefs, and if they are consistent their beliefs will lead them to the heresy of fatalism. It sounds to me like they are in the full blown heresy of fatalism.
I'd really like for a Calvinist (a consistent one, at least, one that actually understands the implications of his/her ideology) to explain to me why on Earth the Bible repeatedly says that this evil thing and that thing there are "not of God," if, according to their beliefs, LITERALLY EVERYTHING is "of God," because He's making it all happen. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. He planned for, and set things up with the specific, deliberate intent for someone to do X or Y absolutely hideously evil act... and somehow that act is "not of God"? How? None of it makes sense.
I'd love to see Leighton do a video chat with Kevin from *Beyond the Fundamentals* one day. He's got a lot of good verse by verse, tactical and contextual stuff, (PDF's too) but falls a tiny bit short on loving them back to sound doctrine. IMO, they'd have to agree beforehand not to wander into KJV only issues.
:) I love how Kevin backs up all his statements with the Bible with specific passages, often multiple passages per point. I've learned a lot on philosophical system of Purest Calvinism, more than all the years living under its shadow. Agree on your last sentence.
Dont forget the 2 major calvinist false dichotomies, are you calvinist or anrminiest, and do you believe in limited atonement, or is everyone going to heaven
(Job 42:7 NASB) It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.
John, you do realize the verses you are presenting do not support philosophical sovereignty ONLY biblical sovereignty. IF you have the biblical sovereignty glasses on then you should be able to the the obvious that there is another will doing things contrary to God's will that God is changing/challending-otherwise He is changing (revising as a second draft) the will He initially ordained to do. AND, John, we all should take to heart Job 42:7--and that means you too, unless you have found infallibility in Calvinism. IF you are wrong, your beliefs impugn God's holiness, love, and integrity--all the more to employ Sola Scriptura.
The fact that we have freedom isn't man centric at all... it's God centric. The only reason we have it is because God is free and god shared that attribute with us when He made us in His image.
It seems to me, Mr White and the host (and probably the majority of Calvinists) don't think anyone understands Calvinism EXCEPT Calvinists. Therefore, no one is qualified to rebut it. Kind of a weak position...
This video is almost 3 years old (as of this comment's post date), and I just heard the same argument I heard a relative make about me. I tried to tell him gently that Calvinism is not good, but the conversation escalated quickly (It does not help that I'm like an emotional mirror reflecting back, to the person I'm talking with, the emotions I perceive them to have). The conversation ended in him saying he won't listen to me simply because I have been studying the bible for less than a year (he probably said this because I mentioned that TULIP gives people a reason to put the blame on God for their sin, which is not correct knowing each person is to be held accountable on the day of judgement). Thing is, I knew something was wrong with TULIP just from reading the bible, and him recommending me watch some R.C. Sproll videos is how I heard about TULIP. This was all before I found out about this channel. Just hope he will listen to others, such as Greg Laury.
At about 1:12:00 they basically retreat into Gnosticism. If you don’t have your eyes open, you won’t believe in the sovereign God. Talk about an old heresy.
Yes! I've been hoping that you would confront these guys. They are staunch Calvinists. I thank you for doing this. God bless you brother. I also saw this very interview on Apologia radio... I felt like Jeff and dr. White were wrong about there calvinistic claims.
I have watched lots of Jeff Durbin apologetics. It is ironic how he always is accusing atheists of not staying consistent with their world views by appealing to morality from a theistic world view. Meanwhile he does this himself repeatedly by appealing to the atheists reasoning and imploring them to choose God.
The simple fair minded middle ground seems to be , "God Allows" evil to happen and man to choose evil. But he does not cause, nor does he choose to intervene per his perfect knowledge. Permissive will it is called.
Arguing salvation with Durbin or White is akin to Arguing with a Postmodernist. The pomos believe your interpretation is the valid one. But if you interpret their words in a manner which they don't approve then they get upset with you. Durbin gets upset with Mormon guy when he uses his non-determined free will to oppose Durbin and White.
Dr. White is usually a dangerous weapon, but safe pointed out at other groups. It's sad to see him (regardless of his specific arguments) losing his cool to a Mormon. Also, I never ran across such a well prepared Mormon growing up in Mesa, AZ. They have definitely upped their philosophy game. The ones I knew couldn't handle their own scriptures.
Does apologia have a tik tok. Apparently they , or someone else, are leaving a sour taste in my coworkers mouths. Interrupting and talking over opposition all the time,. Not only that, but this doctrine has been used by my brother to call God evil. Christians are being misrepresented.. And it is hurting..
Jean Cauvin would not tolerable criticism or questioning of anything he said or wrote. To do so would put yourself in dire danger of torture and a gory execution. No wonder Calvinists lie, sugarcoat and outright dismiss anything negative about Jean, even in the face of decades of Geneva documenting everything done under his direction.
I'm wondering HOW Jimmy White even knows he is a saved Christian? He certainly couldn't claim his faith as a confirmation. If he hasn't been "chosen", all the faith in the world could overcome that!
I cannot stand the smugness of these two Calvinists. If you could only be as smart as we are. Calvinism is doing so much damage in the Church today. These two sides do have one thing in common though, they worship a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible.
Shame on Dr. White. He's dripping with pride, smugness, vitriol, and pettiness. Where's your grace, brother? Nobody lights a lamp and puts it under a basket. Would anyone think White behaved in a way his light shined before men? So many presuppositions, begging the questions, and personal attacks too. These Christians had a chance to get through to this young Mormon and blew it. I'm starting to wonder if Calvinists, like the Mormons, have the right God/Christ too. Sad; sad; sad.
What a great platform bro bring on the tough subjects of todays theological differences. And what an amazing opportunity it could be to bring people to Christ. And Mr. White is just squandering an incredible opportunity because he just won’t get out of his Calvinistic echo chamber. Calvinism and itself reminds me of politics. That tribal nature that everyone feels more comfortable with someone that agrees with them that they think is smart. So damaging
Another reaction some people might have when hearing the debate between these Calvinists and the Mormon is to give up on religion and spirituality completely. The Calvinists are talking nonsense and a person may already know enough about Mormonism to know it isn’t true. The unfortunate conclusion some might reach is that all faiths are a confused mess that distracts them from real life. I really wish Calvinists weren’t so on fire to spread their distorted version of grace.
This is probably why we really need to expand the horizon on christianity and its history. Calvinism isn't all of christianity, so is Protestantism. People should really check all the churches, even the questionable catholics. I recommend checking out eastern orthodoxy, their theology with regard to the ultimate purpose of man is amazing.
If God has predetermined everything, why does he WORK (present tense) all things according to the counsel of His own will? Wouldn't it be God HAS WORKED (past tense) all things according to the counsel of His own will?
Yes and just at 17 minutes when Leighton says there is a difference between God using evil actions happening to bring about good purpose vs. producing and determining the evil to occur!
Dear Dr. Flowers, I know you have said that you have determined not to read our comments, but, I have determined to write you here, anyway in case you determine to change your mind and determine to read this anyway, or more accurately, God tells you to read it and you listen to Him. I was raised simultaneously under three polar-opposite church denominations, Presbyterian, Baptist (free-will) and Pentecostal. But, in my 30's God opened my eyes to the fact that I had always been "taught" the Bible and never really "learned" from the scriptures. I was spiritually raised Calvinist unaware. While I wasn't taught the extremes I am seeing from these Calvinists, I did lean towards God being always in control. I still believe that, but not what I am seeing today. I broke from each and every church, and from any commentary and spent three years primarily studying the Bible Sola-scriptura. I used the KJV, Unabridged Dictionary with archaic words, Strong's Concordance, and the Thompson Chain Reference Bible which has cross references but not commentary so I could keep everything in context. My study was on Predestination, Election, Free Will and Salvation. I didn't assume anything. I never studied Calvin or any Free-will specific leaders or their doctrines as such. My study was extensive for three years and continued more off-and-on for two decades that followed. My conclusion was that man has a restricted free will and God is in control, not to cause man to sin, but to intervene so that all things happen for the benefit of the saved and for the Glory of God. At the end of this research, I researched what Calvin taught (not really studying Calvin) and found a great summary of the beautiful acronym, TULIP. Apparently, I found a very shallow explanation of what they believe and teach. I looked for Arminius, but never found anything reasonable that defined his belief, except that an "Armenian believes in free will of man." I haven't been able to accurately express what I learned until recently. Here is what I learned. Total Depravity: I believe in the total depravity of the sinner (Saints are saved, sinners are not.) He has a sin nature and there is nothing he can think, believe in, love, hate, or practice or not do, to save himself. However, when the Gospel is preached to him, he cannot help but see the light. He can reject the light, or not. By rejecting the light, he hardens himself and may reach a point in which God no longer draws him to the Savior. By not rejecting the light, man defaults to belief. The process of transitioning from sinner to saint may come in different practices such as confession, the sinner's prayer, the Roman Road, etc. But, Salvation comes from him believing he is a hopeless sinner and only the Blood of Christ can atone for his sins. Saints are free from the law of sin and death. He may live spiritually and become a super-hero of the faith, or carnally and die an early death, but at the Judgement Seat of Christ, anything he did that was not to the Glory of God will be burned away and then, he will be judged for reward, on those things he did for Christ. The carnal saint may have nothing left, and be ashamed, but he is not judged on his sin. Election: I find that Election consistently refers to office. Jacob represented the family from whom the Messiah would come, as would the Israelites as a whole. Jesus was the Elect Messiah. Atonement: God's sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to pay for the sins of each and everyone in the world, but only those who accept the substitution will realize it's benefit. I don't call it "limited". Grace: While I strongly believe that anyone who hears the Gospel can understand that they are a sinner and need a savior, he can, and often does, resist, maybe even multiple times. Over time, some sinners become softer and are eventually saved, and others hardened and eventually turned over to a reprobate mind. Perseverance of the Saints. I believe that God keeps the Saints, regardless of whether they fall away from the faith or not, whether they commit a grievous sin or not. However, that is based on true salvation and not someone playing the hypocrite, that is someone pretending to be saved, or follows a false doctrine of salvation. These are, and always have been sinners who would die in their sins anywhere along their time-line. Predestination: Predestination can mean two things: Our final destination is to be in the Kingdom with God and Christ. In this life on earth, God has a perfect will for us. We may follow it, or not. If not, God has an acceptable will or path for us to follow. Just as David diverted with Bathsheba, and Paul with John Mark and Barnabas. Salvation: Saving Grace is like the sun at noon on a clear day when the Gospel is first heard. The sinner sees it, and he may reject it and run back into darkness, or not reject it. Not rejecting it is, by default, accepting it. This is where I see man not having any part of his salvation. God makes it obvious and man either rejects it or doesn't. Man's rejection is his choice, but, as the saying says, "Even a blind man knows when he is in the sun." Man may continue to reject it, call it evil, run from it, and deny it. After awhile the man will become hardened and never accept it, but he will be responsible for rejecting it. The Saint, on the other hand, will not be able to claim he is saved because he believed, or because he had faith, or because he made a choice even though he did these things. His one and only grounds for salvation is that Jesus paid the price. The fact that he did not reject that gift, is not his work. After all these videos comparing Calvinism and Free Will, I have to also add "The Sovereignty of God' even though it was not one of the points of my initial study. At that time I could not conceive anyone not understanding God's Sovereignty as simple as it is. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. That, to me, includes the laws of science which we have discovered, and laws of sin and righteousness. We know about the laws of relativity, thermodynamics, gravity, and the law of sin and death. I believe there are other spiritual laws, as well, that we may not have identified. Adam's sin started a series of events that eventually led to the Great Deluge (Noah's Flood for those who might not understand.) From Adam to Noah, the Bible records that God constantly intervened. From God trying to convince Cain not to let sin control him, to naming the fathers in the linage of Christ as a warning of the impending judgement, God was there and in control. In Job and other places the scriptures teach that Satan has to get God's permission to tempt or touch. The scriptures also report times God answers prayers and otherwise manipulates events and history. God is sovereign. He gets His way, even if it means He manipulates people by feeding one to a fish, changing kings, healing a man on the Sabbath. In His sovereignty, God uses people's choices, and sometimes directly intervenes for His own glory. His prophesies are true and accurate and what He says He will do, He does. But, I can't believe I am even saying this, GOD DOES NOT SIN OR MAKE SOMEONE SIN! All I can say is that if the Blood of Jesus Christ, God's work alone, is not sufficient to forgive me of my sins and to be my righteousness when I stand before God, it will have been better that I had never been born. I have no other hope. There is no other hope. Thank you, Dr. Flowers, I don't believe we are at odds in our faith. Neither of us considers "having faith, believing, accepting God's free gift, or salvation" a work on man's part. We have a different way of expressing it and a little different way of seeing the process. When we see the light, the only work we can do is reject it. Otherwise, it is the work of Christ who saves us. Thank you and God bless you and your ministry. I look forward to meeting you.
My Bible College Dean used to caution me to argue carefully lest I "win the argument but lose the soul." Winning the argument but destroy destroying the sinner is not winning!
Why does God need to glorify Himself? In my mind it’s simply demonstrating His nature to His creatures to prompt them to the proper reverence of their Creator. In other words, God glorifies Himself for our good. He, Himself, needs nothing.
I just watched this and when they talked about the Holocaust I had to comment. This was my comment I posted. "First let me say I'm 100% against Mormons. But I do want to say I'm also 100% against Calvinism. God gives man free will, our free will does not interfere with his will being done. The Holocaust did not surprise God because God is omnicient and knows everything that will happen, but he didn't cause it, decree it, or stop it because God allows man to have free will to choose to do good or evil. The reason it's not purposeless if God allowed the Holocaust to happen and did not decree it to happen is because those men who committed those evils will be held accountable and justice will be served. God is not the author of evil or the author of sin. In Calvinism it blows my mind, they think God decrees evil to happen to glorify himself. That is insane. God is not dependent on the actions of man to glorify himself. God glorifies himself through SALVATION, which is offered and extended to all men through Jesus Christ if they believe, repent, and be born again. Geez, I love Jeff and Dr. White but I can't get down with Calvinism"
Kwaku sailed right into white. Did you see right at the beginning when Kwaku completely took white off guard. White moved backwards in his chair “GET SOME”. Neither of them are in God’s will. We could take a lesson
If sin is that which goes against God and His purposes yet God ultimately purposes everything then no man can sin since all things are purposed by God. This is why Calvinism makes no sense.
If God decrees evil, God is the one responsible for, and reason and source of, all evil. That world has no need for the Satan. It renders such an agent as second fiddle to God. As one might seek to appoint an ultimate source of evil in this world as the NT writers seem to do, suggesting Satan as that source, and particularly not God. Shouldnt this be far behind us in the need for teaching basics? Answer yes, unfortunately this must be taught and I am thankful for Dr Flowers doing such.
"shocked off my thrown" I burst out laughing! It's like Calvinist's forget who the prince of this world is and what he's doing! Satan and his ministers tempt us to commit evil...God uses the evil for good! Without pain, suffering, and evil we would not NEED a Savior...enduring this is was leads us to Christ! We concur this once we come to him with faith...WITH the COMFORTER that is sent to help us through! James 1 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 2 Thessalonians 12 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. What determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? Isaiah 1 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 IF ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But IF ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Psalms 95 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Israel gloried in their works and became vain before the Lord and this angered him, for the works were already finished FROM (not before) the foundation of the world...not the determining works of the Lord, but the works that will lead us to our salvation! Hebrews 4 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye WILL hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same EXAMPLE of UNBELIEF. Due to Israel's vanities God gathered for himself a remnant that believed and then the rest were BLINDED...he offered salvation to the Gentiles through faith to provoke them to Jealousy! The reason some people come to God with faith and some don't, can be due to many factors...personal pride is one and another major factor is Religious brainwashing which is the making of Satan's LIES...This becomes a generational curse!...Another lie of Satan is leading a man/woman to believe that those lies were predetermined by God who is LOVE and cannot tempt a man with evil! This so absurd...all these "scholars" arguing when God said, he will destroy the wisdom of the world and confound the wise with tht which is foolish! :) It's sooo simple...Hear the Gospel, willingly believe it and eat the good of the land or refuse to and be devoured by the sword! THE LORD HATH SPOKEN IT!!! :)
Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Just a general statement. Proverbs 20:24 reads, “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?” A general statement about all his steps. Proverbs 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground - whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord. Proverbs 19:21: “Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.” Whatever humans anywhere in the world are planning and doing, what stands is God’s will. Jeremiah 10:23: “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.”
Read the book Job and find out whether God ALLOWED satan to test job. Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?” Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
God is in control of all things. He doesn't make us sin, we naturally are inclined to sin. God doesn't make the rapest rape, but He allows it to happen. If God has the ability and power to stop the rapest, but doesn't, then by default He has ordained it.
Luke 1 Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?” I Need to study this first! :) I have a few questions! Why would GOD ever have the need to ask a question? Isaiah 1 21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Why would God encourage us to pray? Can we influence him? Philippians 4:6 - Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. John 15:7 - If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. Matthew 26:41 - Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak. Why does God grieve? Genesis 6 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Psalm 78 40 How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert! Isaiah 63 10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. Isaiah 65 3 A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks; Why do the heavens rejoice when a person comes to the Lord by Faith? Luke 15 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.” "Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." As you can see he is doing way more than just that which he pleases! A can assure you that evil does not please the Lord, he is tolerating it, for the purpose that it is that which brings us to him in our times of weakness, pain, and suffering! No one ever calls out for a Savior when they are on top of the world! He patiently uses evil doings of the wicked to reach out his hand, that we just might stretch out ours and grab hold of his, that we humbly submit to him in need of a Savior to be pulled out of the hole we are in called life!
@@KISStheSON... Hi Stacey, 😊 I apologise, I should have greeted you first. I don't believe any Calvinist believes God orchestrates sin, man is responsible for sin. R.C Sproul explains this really well, he says men have free will, but what do we mean when we say "free will", do we have free will to be pure in heart and blameless before God? No, the bible teaches that we are "dead" in our trespasses, that we are marred by sin caused from the fall. So immediately we know that our "free will" has limitations. God has given us His law, he urges us to obey Him and love Him with an undevided heart, yet how many times do we see His chosen nation turn their backs to Him in rebellion.... Does God orchestrate this, no, this is the natural heart of man. Can God control this? Yes. Can God wipe us all of the earth right now? Yes. Could God have stopped the Holocaust from happening? Yes. Why? Because He is sovereign and omnipotent. Why, didn't he stop it from happening? Because, it wasn't His will to stop it. This is what Theologians mean when they say both God and man are responsible, man is responsible because it's his will to carry out a sinful act, and God because he has the power and authority to stop it but chooses not to because it isn't His will to do so, hence God has ordained it to come to pass. And God will work all things for good and for His will. Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. In response to the noted scripture on prayer, do you believe God answers prayer according to His will or your will? Blessings
That's why no Calvinists will evangelize by starting with God determining people to hell or heaven. No one would even want to get close to God as they describe. Reformed church would only teach Calvinism to young converts and doctrinate them.
its a tough sell, for sure ....every unsaved person, Catholic and many Protestants will reflexively react negatively against such a repugnant view of God
The Pharisees & Saducees often debated themselves, the Pharisees claiming to be more pious & giving God ALL the glory, while the Saducees only believed in the material world. Case in point: Both were wrong.
ravissary79 -- Indeed. My point was this; for those who think Calvinism speaks rightly of God, because Mormonism is obviously wrong, thats it's either one or the other, I propose a 3rd option: Like the Sadducees & Pharisees believing themselves ELECT for Salvation, because they were bilogically Jews, they're BOTH wrong.
I used to be a Calvinist. I am glad that God broke that false doctrine off of me.
Leighton Flowers is a true hero--rescuing Christianity from the horrors of Calvinism.
Absolutely! We'll said!
God pre-destined us to have choices
Touchet! Very well played! Bravo!
I will have the same as a family u at TX hia
Go💡
@@jw2442 is with his father for his first time
I love how you explain that when we are defending the autonomous free will of man, what we are really defending is the Holiness of God. I am so sick of Calvinists claiming that our doctrines are man-centered. Yes, we spend a lot of time focusing on how evil, and wicked, and wretched man is, and how man alone is responsible for the evils committed, this isn't to glorify man, but the exact opposite, it is to highlight how loving, and kind, and patient, and merciful, and holy, and righteous, and gracious God is.
All things that are undermined by Calvinism.
If Calvinism is true, sin is God’s fault and he’s the biggest hypocrite in the universe.
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't follow the teaching of the Hebrew Bible, which clearly shows that man has the agency to accept G-d's Word and repent of his sin.
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't follow the teaching of the Hebrew Bible, which clearly shows that man has the agency to accept G-d's Word and repent of his sin.
Amen
I love how Durbin tells the mormon to be quiet and not interrupt him while he's talking, and then Durbin goes on and interrupts him when he's talking.
“It’s not about God creating a rock so big that He can’t move it... it’s about God creating a rock that He CHOOSES not to move.”
If you change the question, yes.
I had the exact same thoughts watching this convo. Interesting.
Hey, it’s Jamal!
CriticalThinker02 haha, it is!
@@whaddoyoumeme does Vocab Malone know you're watching this. But in all seriousness I do not know how close Vocab is to James White (though I do know that they are friends).
I'd love to hear some of the discussions you and Vocab must have.
Whaddo You Meme?? Lol, it’s awesome to see you here.
So what are you gonna say when someone ask you what is the best Christian apologetic youtube channel?
Whaddo You Meme??!
The Mormon man seemed to understand pretty clearly to me. Also, they kept over talking him.
The mormon guy seemed really smart. Too bad they take such an untenable position.
You have to obstruct when what’s being said is so clearly damaging you your position.
@@jeffallanday yup. The mormon only speaks for 5 minutes, and they speak for 3o minutes, i wish they can speak fairly.
You can tell who is losing.😂
You know what I just thought? If I was a Calvinist I wouldn't want to have kids. Because there is a 50/50 chance that child won't be elect so by having a kid you are possibly giving life to someone you are going to love unconditionally but might be condemned to hell from birth
What a sad doctrine
Give me some of your data. Where did you come across this knowledge that its "50-50" whether or not one will be elect? I know exactly how to ensure my children will be elect. If we sincerely believe the gospel we are elect. The end.
Michael Chandler Keaton I'm taking about Calvinist. They believe man is incapable of surely believing the gospel or responding to it unless they pre determined by God to do so. So as my question stands I'm saying, IF someone believes that. Why would you ever have a child knowing there's a chance they won't be elect and therefore no matter what you teach them they will hate God and reject God because they are 100% incapable of loving him.
+True Christian No. We believe man will only believe if God grants him the grace and draws him, which is what scripture teaches. Natural man will never ever choose God on his own, because he is radically sinful. But if we believe we are saved. So yes in Calvinism, to believe is to be elect, just as scripture states. Nobody is desperately wanting and trying to believe, but being denied by God on Calvinism. Its God's mercy. If God doesn't draw men they will never want to respond to Him. If someone does sincerely believe then they are of the elect, 100% of the time. There is no 50/50 chance.
+True Christian:
That is my favorite proof of the insane evil of Calvinism, they logically don't necessarily love the very children they procreate.
Mike Keaton:
God elected -- or not -- everyone before the foundation of the world, right?
How is rape predestined to happen to bring about God's glory if the victim never accepts Christ or believes in God? Not all victims of evil turn to God
Its a foretaste of the hell they deserve?
My suspicion is Calvinists might answer with logic similar to:
Calvinistic Premise 1: God does everything for his own glory.
Calvinistic Premise 2: God exhaustively decrees *everything* that happens (including that rape).
Calvinistic Conclusion: Therefore, that rape works to God's glory, as does God creating the victim, eternally intending and decreeing that she would suffer eternally in Hell.
😳
If we impose those (unBiblical and repugnant, imho) premises upon God, then (it seems to me) the above conclusion becomes inescapable. Calvinism relies heavily on logic... except where it doesn't.
Note that this Calvinistic "glory" seems (to me) to resemble that of a narcissistic, sadistic dictator far more than anything consistent with the character of the Biblical God. In contrast, the Biblical God “so loved the world that he gave his only Son” (John 3:16) to suffer public humiliation, disgrace, and unimaginable pain to save sinners... while asserting this Son “is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature”. (Hebrews 1:3, NASB) It seems to me this Biblical “glory” (apparently linked to or even based in God's self-sacrificial love) is entirely different from whatever the Calvinistic concept is. (Do Calvinists ever define this?)
I’m curious what others think of my thoughts that the above type of Calvinistic thinking may explain the apparent anger / harshness that some (not all) Calvinists seem to exude, as well as the elitism which seems woven into the DNA of Calvinism¹. Might these Calvinists simply be reflecting² the character of their God?
____________
¹ Calvinists often claim their theology obviates any basis for elitism. Yet, if God chose *me* and NOT most people, the conclusion that I am somehow special becomes difficult to avoid… unless God’s election truly is completely meaningless and arbitrary³, such that he cares not one bit more for those he died to save than for those he created to torment eternally.
² Alternatively, might some become Calvinists because the theology reflects their own character?
³ Do any Calvinists affirm God’s election to be fundamentally meaningless and arbitrary? Or does his decision have a meaningful basis that simply remains inscrutable from our perspective? If the latter, then even if we do not yet know it, is there not something fundamentally different (and, per God’s judgement, preferred) about the elect than those created for destruction? Per this reasoning, either God makes meaningless, arbitrary decisions about the eternal destinies of his creations, or Calvinistic elitism is justified.
@@christophersnedeker2065 This is a horrible comment. So God sent someone to rape someone in order to give them a foretaste of Hell?
@@Amencore Not saying what I think, just giving a possible answer.
@@christophersnedeker2065 well it's hard to fathom how one could be guilty if God determined the rape. It would actually make God guilty. It would be the same as a man putting a glove on and strangling someone to death and then hold the glove guilty while claiming to be a loving person.
This is an amazing video. We can discuss the 5 points and who's right all day long, but the practical "rubber meets the road" aspect of this is that Calvinism handicaps apologetics. This kid took two prominent, experienced apologists and totally owned them. If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it possible.
I am still waiting for your response from your channel to me . When I laid out the doctrine of election used by John is the gospel of John. I have message you three times. You gave me one response previously before my demonstration. All you said is the elect is Yashua and people become the elect by there free will in there Faith with no proof text at all. That is why I gave you a short but accurate demonstration in the gospel of John through Historical Contextual hermeneutics and Exegesis through context. Still waiting for your refute from my demonstration. I won't hold my breathe. And anyone reading this who believe you have free will in coming to Yahweh. Proof text a verse. There is not one verse in the New testament of any type of free will. We have limited will not free. Some one accept my challenge on free will.provide verses through context. Every scriptures God choosing the elect is used in a singular verb never a plural verb. Proof text one verse anybody.And someone accept my challenge to refute my demonstration of the book of John in the doctrine of election without deflecting or Eisegesis the scriptures. Just message me and I will demonstrate the doctrine of election from John . But don't bother if you can not address the specific scriptures I provide through context and Exegesis.
19 minutes into this and I'm hearing Leighton talk about Redemption. I want to say that the idea of redemption can fully destroy this idea of determinism.
If God determines literally all things, then what's the point of redeeming them? Isn't Redemption towards the fallen person, towards the person who has done wrong? If God makes us do wrong, then what sense are we truly redeemed?
Lizica Dumitru exactly, in reformed theology God sent His Son to redeem everything that He determined.
He sent His Son to redeem all of His own mess-ups.
@@apilkey Oooo burn! At least He's cleaning up after Himself 😉...🤔
Stop, you're making too much sense.
@@lizicadumitru9683 Exactly! You've hit upon the answer: God had to clean up after himself! 😳 😛 🙄
I began typing more, but extending this line of reasoning grew so blasphemous, so quickly, my heart proved unwilling to post it. 🤮
@@clearway If it smacks the face of Calvinism, I say post it. YHWH surely has a sense of humor. But you follow your conscience not mine 😇
Thank you so much for spending the time that goes into making these. As a newer Christian, the reformed theological interpretation of scripture left me sick to my stomach. Your videos are such a blessing.
I thank God for determining that there will be a remnant out there bringing attention to the issues with Calvinism and teaching those of us who had no clue that there is danger in that theology. Thank you Mr Flowers
I would absolutely be trembling in my shoes, if I had attributed the heinous, horrific, sinful acts to an almighty, Loving God...And then had the audacity to teach these beliefs to His vulnerable, unlearned creations...You will not be held guiltless...
Amen
It's so sad that these calvinist, have pushed this young man further into Mormonism, and further from the truth
What arrogance! "You're not listening to me," even if I/we don't make any sense. These guys should be ashamed of themselves.
I did watch this some time ago and they did seem flustered but I couldn’t understand why at that time due to me not understanding Calvinism back then as I do now due to the help of your ministry and my own studying. This debate is now so much clearer Thankyou for highlighting this.
"...purplelessly..."
Absent the color purple?
He may mispronounce a word or two ( ok, maybe more) occasionally, but he is spot on about Calvinism.
Eric Rogers “Purpleless Rain” = new potential song parody 😂
"Never meant to cause you any sorrow...But apparently, God determined all the pain..."
Eric Rogers Sneering because Dr Flowers mispronounced 'purposelessly' is not a valid counter-argument. Would you also sneer at people who misspell words or make grammatical errors? I have family members who are dyslexic and, consequently, have difficulty with spelling words correctly. I also have friends and colleagues who have difficulty with the correct pronunciation of some words. Mispronouncing or misspelling words does not imply that someone is incapable of making an intelligent argument and it does not entitle anyone else to sneer at them. Your juvenile comment says much more about you, and portrays you negatively, than it does Dr Flowers.
@@breid2254 Slow your roll, fella. I'm just playing. Leighton would be the first to laugh.
I believe I have stated before on this channel, that if I was an atheist I'd be a Calvinist. If I was an atheist who's purpose is to de-convert Christians, which seems high on the priority list of most vocal atheists, I would memorize large numbers of quotations from past and current Calvinists and use their statements to 'prove' how heartless and evil the God of the Bible is 'in believers' own words."
Very well said!
I'm so tired of the Calvinist "you don't understand our system" bullshit. If God created you with a nature that can only desire to rebel, then you are a rebelling robot. Great video Leighton.
The more I see White the more snide he becomes. The guy is full of pride. I honestly fear for his salvation...
He's unwilling to acknowledge the horrible weakness in his position, and continues to hold on it being a strength. He's gone this far as one of the chief defenders of calvinism, his whole career is based on it. To give that up would require him abandoning his entire career.
He also refuses to call out bad teachers and even endorses many. I don't know his heart to say he isn't saved but his actions suggest a complete disregard for God's word and for following the example of Christ. Anyone concerned with God's word should separate from James and if they're teachers and leaders, they should warn their sheep of him and those he promotes
And Jeff Durbin is right there soaking it all up.
@@AcidAdventurer who are the false teachers james promotes? Thanks
James White is more interested in being "right" than he is in being correct.
The fact that God uses evil actions to accomplish his good purpose, and yet not responsible for the evil actions is written ALL OVER the Old Testament.
Excellent job Dr. Flowers. Unlike James White you have nothing to hide, because you are speaking the truth.
Oh I’m so glad Dr. Flowers responded to this.
He responded it just wasn’t a good one
You know what I never see from flowers critique? Scripture
Lance Baize Or sound logic!
@@lancebaize1136 check out his other videos he gives a hole bunch of scriptures in their context. Megan Phelps for example on Romans 9
Emon Kazem I have. His problem is the scripture that he does use he presupposes philosophy on the text instead of exegesis
So there you go, calvinists Equate Evil acts to the work of the Holy Spirit.
Does not the story of Joseph in Genesis prove a Sovereign God who allows people to make choices to the which will never thwart His Sovereign Plan?
Jonathan Schaffner absolutely! God is sovereign, ruling as He chooses. He has chosen to give man free agency to do as they will. However, man’s free agency will in no way thwart Gods will. One of God’s wills is that all who believe in Jesus receive salvation, justification, adoption as His children; in fact God has already predestinated that for all who believe.
I'm in total agreement :)
@Jonathan Schaffner - this is an excellent question that undermines Leighton Flower's position. Nowhere in the Bible does it say God "allowed" Joseph's brothers to make these choices. Here's what the Bible actually says:
[+] You planned evil against me; *God planned it* for good to bring about the present result - the survival of many people. (Gen 50:20)
Note that BOTH the brothers AND God planned Joseph's kidnapping. It says "planned", not "allowed".
[+]And He called for a famine upon the land; He broke the whole staff of bread. He sent a man before them, Joseph, [who] was sold as a slave. (Ps 105:16-17)
Not that God *sent* Joseph.
But if you can show me a verse that says "God does not plan these things; He allows them", I'll happily reconsider.
Tim Foster The brothers originally wanted to kill Joseph, Rueben suggested throwing him in a pit. Rueben’s intention was to rescue him later in an attempt to regain his father’s favour. Judah, seeing an Ishmaelite caravan, suggested selling Joseph into slavery.
This is free will, God permitted it because Joseph has a long way to go before he can fulfill the vision God gave him. Unless you wish to suggest that God arranged for the caravan to come at this time, sent Joseph the visions so his youthful arrogance can boast and land him envy.
@@martytu20 Jesus came to me one night and gave me a prophecy about who I was going to marry. A couple months later I took some acid and wrote the girl a letter, the next day I went to mail it, and this force was opposing me the whole way and when I got to the post office I couldn't lift my arm up to the mailbox. I tried and tried and couldn't do it , I drove away and then drove back and I tried again and with all my might I lift it up my arm and put the letter in the mailbox. So without a doubt there was an angel there holding me back or doing something trying to stop me from mailing that stupid letter I wrote what I was tripping on acid
Is it just me or does Calvinism seem to produce arrogance in the proponents of it?
Know your right it does!!
Pride tends to rise up in people when they're defending something they know/are afraid is wrong. If they're focused on seeking truth regardless if it makes them right or wrong they're more likely to display love and humility. My two cents.
Hi Mary, I can see how arrogance and pride could be attributed to a Calvinist.
From my point of view (non-Calvinist), it seems to me that any Scripture is viewed through Calvinistic lenses meaning that everything they read from the Scripture points to their beliefs and they are unwilling to see an opposing viewpoint. A Miner concept would be to suggest "they have married the vein". When a Prospector visits a Mine and is looking for evidence there is Gold within...every thing he sees "proves" to him that the mine has gold inside - he ignores the other evidences that show the opposite, refusing to acknowledge opposing evidences.
I have a friend who is a Reformed Calvinist and he pointed me to a verse, read it out loud to me and exclaimed this proved his point. When looking at it closely, it proved nothing of the sort and I realized his Calvinistic Lenses kept him from seeing anything but what he wanted to believe. This demeanor can sometimes be seen as arrogant and/or prideful but I don't believe that is how Dr. White and Pastor Jeff desire to be seen.
My 2.5 cents.
@Todd Wilburn I agree, I've been speaking with a couple calvinistic Lutherans and when I ask them how they resolve apparent contradictions in their system they just quote more verses as if one verse (one they interpret to be calvinistic) somehow cancels out the apparent contradiction and even other verses of scripture, and they just continue to quote verses assuming their own interpretation of them thinking they somehow prove heir point even when the verse doesn't even address the question being asked. But this is the case for many people and their positions, they fail to understand that reading the Bible always involves interpretation at some level, most protestants fall into this category due to the doctrine of Sola scriptura, I'm sure none of them desire to be viewed as arrogant but some come off much more arrogant than others, White being one of them, pride has always, and will always, be a big stumbling block for some, esspecially when they make themselves the final arbiter and interpreter of the scriptures.
@@marydetray6776 It's difficult to have a "what does the text say" conversation with another when their mind is made up on their viewpoint before the conversation or Bible Study starts. I feel the most important aspect of disagreeing is that so long as it doesn't take away from the most important aspects of Biblical Teaching (ex: Salvation through Faith alone in Christ alone) we can 'agree to disagree' and still remain friendly to our brothers & sisters in Christ. There are a lot of topics that are grey areas or ones the Scripture does not address. These shouldn't divide the Body of Christ.
Certainly my demeanor (or another's) can be seen as prideful or arrogant depending on the words I use, the way I speak them and my body language at the time. I try and be careful with what and the way I say things but am not always successful. Hopefully those who are seen as prideful or arrogant can take a moment to view themselves from an objective position and make changes if any are needed. Myself included.
I used myself as the focus in the above paragraph so as not to be seen as pointing fingers at any one person or a group. I find my thoughts are accepted better if directed at me rather than potentially being seen as accusatory. Hope that makes sense.
Great chatting with you!
I liked the moment where he responded with "what about mountain meadows massacre"? Yes that needs to be remembered.
This was a fantastic video. I can’t believe people are accusing you of being a Mormon sympathizer.
They are unreasonable and haven’t listened to your words or this debate.
Thanks Leighton
James is doing, not allowing the Mormon speak/explain, by talking over him- what he DOESN'T want one to do to him.
The Mormon guy owned them. Add one more to the Apologia Radio and you have the three stooges.
So according to White,God the Father sent Christ to clean up the mess He made!
In Calvinism, the Son of righteousness redeems the Father of evil.
The absolute smugness of Jeff Durbin is enough to turn people off from Calvinism. Jeff Durbin got angry because here’s some young Mormon making the Calvinist God look horrendous & he knew it.
At the end of the day it all comes down to "you're too dumb to understand", "I'm better than you", "you don't get it"... These guys just wanted a one man audience for their arrogance.
Calvinists are great at explaining their stance most the time, but are terribly terribly bad at explaining the other side, or even understanding it. It's like they were pre-destined to be blind and ignorant towards free thinking.
From my first hand life experience, they rely on "You better believe what I believe or you're condemned". End of discussion. That way they never need to study or think through all the points of their religious system.
It makes God look incoherent at best and evil at worst!
Im so glad you addressed this! I had very similar thoughts when i watched this live. I was disappointed they got bogged down on a this. The mormon was smart to get them to go down this road and expose the weakness of their stance.
"the evil committed would have been pointless"... This quote reminds me of when I shared that "Jesus died for all" with my Calvinist friend the response was "Then Jesus died for people who wouldn't believe... so He failed in His mission." But the Bible doesn't say that. It's the same kind of false dichotomy you mentioned: either Jesus failed or He only died for the elect only... choose one. Thank you for your content.
Young dude just said "I want to let you know that you have a father in heaven that loves you."
Jeff Dirtbag:"YoUrE nOt AlLoWeD tO dO tHaT oN oUr RaDiO sTaTiOn. "
I caught that too.. wow
@Reese Paul quotes from hymns to Zues in acts. The god of Mormonism may be false but the things they say about him may be true of the real God.
That explains why Jeff has a giant witchcraft symbol as his logo
@@Poppy_and_Samson
It's supposed to be a version of the Trinity triangle. But, yeah that specific design might not've been wise.
Calvinists have a scary God, I think my anxiety would keep me on edge for life if I was one... while everyone else ("in love") doubts my salvation around me until my last breath.
The Calvinist God truly is a cosmic Tyrant and affirms all Atheistic Indictments against Him........I am so glad that The Biblically God is nothing like him
Perhaps that's why James is so friendly with well know deceptive muslim apologists because they have the same god
Unfortunately the truth is it does affect ppl in that way. My good buddy is super anxious over it. It affects him greatly to the point of dread.
@@willnotez6976
If Calvinists have a false God, why are they counted as Christian?
If Calvinism is false, why isn't it considered a cult?
@@AcidAdventurer Interesting. Both religions have a god that is glorified by the death of unbelievers.
Hhmmm...
Amazing, I have never heard someone explicitly say that God desired the holocaust.
If this doesnt debunk the deterministic worldview what will?
The thing that bothers me is that we as believers know Gods heart, and this is beyond theoligical and philosophical reasoning.
Its sad to see these guys stuck in there doctrines
... A little off the subject, I don't especially understand why any black person would want to be a Mormon based on its doctrine and its history.
True!
Angeliqua Serenity.
If that black person is carnal and is male and very attracted to white females, then maybe, the history and doctrine fade into the horizon.
Sarcasm noted...
A black could also reject Calvinism and Southern Baptists because they were pro-slavery before 1865.
Exactly. Johnathan Edwards was an unrepentant slave owner. Much of the southern slave owners were Calvinists. Apartheid originated from Calvinistic teachings. Compare to NonCalvinists such as John Wesley and John Wiburforce who were pro-abolitionists.
"this is what infuriates me...."
You just read my mind! A good reason to have Mormon as a guest
The best thing that came from James White is the book he wrote called the king James controversy. Sad he fell into Calvinism.
Calvinism is non-sensical
Philip lol ey boet like jou profile pic
@@theoffensivegamer9943 dankie chom
Indeed. It makes God the author of sin.
Thats why the Church didnt believe it for 1500 years
daughter of God
Amen!...James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
God doesn't tempt, he reasons together with us...which is why the believers go where they go and the unbelievers go where they go!....The unbelievers WOULD NOT come to God for refuge!
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
You made a devastating point! If God determines everything and leaves nothing to man, there can be NO evil in the world! God is not the author of sin.
A marionette has external strings. A sock puppet has a hand in it. The are both controlled. Calvinists proclaim “There are no strings!” Okay, but there’s a hand inside.
I cannot see how calvanism is any more Christian than Mormonism. They both preach a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible.
So he has a picture of a man they worship on his wall....idolatry?
The irony of the combination pictures in the background behind James White and the guest.
Behind James White: “Babies murdered here”
Behind the guest: Calvin with sunglasses and “Calvinism.”
Like, NOBODY on set was like “Heeeeeey...waitaminutehere...”
I really wish more of the "moderate" Calvinists truly understood the implications of their theological system. Because if they did, there would be a lot of them leaving this behind.
Leighton, please invite this Mormon on your show.
They are only being consistent in their beliefs, and if they are consistent their beliefs will lead them to the heresy of fatalism. It sounds to me like they are in the full blown heresy of fatalism.
Dr. Flowers thanks for all your contents, they help me understand calvinism. God bless your ministry more.
I'd really like for a Calvinist (a consistent one, at least, one that actually understands the implications of his/her ideology) to explain to me why on Earth the Bible repeatedly says that this evil thing and that thing there are "not of God," if, according to their beliefs, LITERALLY EVERYTHING is "of God," because He's making it all happen. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. He planned for, and set things up with the specific, deliberate intent for someone to do X or Y absolutely hideously evil act... and somehow that act is "not of God"? How?
None of it makes sense.
I'd love to see Leighton do a video chat with Kevin from *Beyond the Fundamentals* one day. He's got a lot of good verse by verse, tactical and contextual stuff, (PDF's too) but falls a tiny bit short on loving them back to sound doctrine. IMO, they'd have to agree beforehand not to wander into KJV only issues.
:) I love how Kevin backs up all his statements with the Bible with specific passages, often multiple passages per point. I've learned a lot on philosophical system of Purest Calvinism, more than all the years living under its shadow. Agree on your last sentence.
Kevin isn't effeminate. That's why you judge him as not loving them back.
Pathetic.
Thank you sir. I have long said "the toughest opponent is the person who argues vehemently for my position, but uses flawed logic."
"It's both." I thought JW didn't believe in synergism. That sounds awfully synergistic to me.
Synergism is a made up word for Calvinists to defend their gnostic heresies.
Hes a Mormon
@@MrBazinthenow JW= James White.
Dont forget the 2 major calvinist false dichotomies, are you calvinist or anrminiest, and do you believe in limited atonement, or is everyone going to heaven
(Job 42:7 NASB) It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.
John, you do realize the verses you are presenting do not support philosophical sovereignty ONLY biblical sovereignty. IF you have the biblical sovereignty glasses on then you should be able to the the obvious that there is another will doing things contrary to God's will that God is changing/challending-otherwise He is changing (revising as a second draft) the will He initially ordained to do. AND, John, we all should take to heart Job 42:7--and that means you too, unless you have found infallibility in Calvinism. IF you are wrong, your beliefs impugn God's holiness, love, and integrity--all the more to employ Sola Scriptura.
@@peterji3013 huh?
The fact that we have freedom isn't man centric at all... it's God centric. The only reason we have it is because God is free and god shared that attribute with us when He made us in His image.
1:03:30 Irony. A neutral observer could have converted to Mormonism over the Calvinist Christianity *without* the Mormon proselytizing.
It seems to me, Mr White and the host (and probably the majority of Calvinists) don't think anyone understands Calvinism EXCEPT Calvinists. Therefore, no one is qualified to rebut it. Kind of a weak position...
This video is almost 3 years old (as of this comment's post date), and I just heard the same argument I heard a relative make about me. I tried to tell him gently that Calvinism is not good, but the conversation escalated quickly (It does not help that I'm like an emotional mirror reflecting back, to the person I'm talking with, the emotions I perceive them to have). The conversation ended in him saying he won't listen to me simply because I have been studying the bible for less than a year (he probably said this because I mentioned that TULIP gives people a reason to put the blame on God for their sin, which is not correct knowing each person is to be held accountable on the day of judgement). Thing is, I knew something was wrong with TULIP just from reading the bible, and him recommending me watch some R.C. Sproll videos is how I heard about TULIP. This was all before I found out about this channel.
Just hope he will listen to others, such as Greg Laury.
Yea, all you need to do is read the Bible to see that Calvinism is not Biblically right.
At about 1:12:00 they basically retreat into Gnosticism. If you don’t have your eyes open, you won’t believe in the sovereign God. Talk about an old heresy.
Yes! I've been hoping that you would confront these guys. They are staunch Calvinists. I thank you for doing this. God bless you brother. I also saw this very interview on Apologia radio... I felt like Jeff and dr. White were wrong about there calvinistic claims.
I have watched lots of Jeff Durbin apologetics. It is ironic how he always is accusing atheists of not staying consistent with their world views by appealing to morality from a theistic world view. Meanwhile he does this himself repeatedly by appealing to the atheists reasoning and imploring them to choose God.
The simple fair minded middle ground seems to be , "God Allows" evil to happen and man to choose evil. But he does not cause, nor does he choose to intervene per his perfect knowledge. Permissive will it is called.
Yeah, this is what I believe as well. I am not a calvinist, but I believe God is sovereign and so anything that happens must be allowed by Him.
Arguing salvation with Durbin or White is akin to Arguing with a Postmodernist. The pomos believe your interpretation is the valid one. But if you interpret their words in a manner which they don't approve then they get upset with you. Durbin gets upset with Mormon guy when he uses his non-determined free will to oppose Durbin and White.
Dr. White is usually a dangerous weapon, but safe pointed out at other groups. It's sad to see him (regardless of his specific arguments) losing his cool to a Mormon. Also, I never ran across such a well prepared Mormon growing up in Mesa, AZ. They have definitely upped their philosophy game. The ones I knew couldn't handle their own scriptures.
Does apologia have a tik tok. Apparently they , or someone else, are leaving a sour taste in my coworkers mouths. Interrupting and talking over opposition all the time,. Not only that, but this doctrine has been used by my brother to call God evil.
Christians are being misrepresented.. And it is hurting..
and this is why James White has to disable all the comments on his RUclips videos... he cant let anyone else get a word in edgewise lest he be exposed
Jean Cauvin would not tolerable criticism or questioning of anything he said or wrote. To do so would put yourself in dire danger of torture and a gory execution. No wonder Calvinists lie, sugarcoat and outright dismiss anything negative about Jean, even in the face of decades of Geneva documenting everything done under his direction.
He loves calling ppl wrong on Twitter tho
I won’t watch something that the calvinite communists won’t let me comment on!
@@Baltic_Hammer6162
Here's why: "The first to state his case seems right, until another comes and cross-examines him." (Prov.18:17)
@@jayhaze3665 Spot on!
I'm wondering HOW Jimmy White even knows he is a saved Christian? He certainly couldn't claim his faith as a confirmation. If he hasn't been "chosen", all the faith in the world could overcome that!
at 54:21 James White looks like, "please let this end..."
Calvinism makes God a devil who only tells us He is good without giving us the ability to recognize good.
I cannot stand the smugness of these two Calvinists. If you could only be as smart as we are. Calvinism is doing so much damage in the Church today. These two sides do have one thing in common though, they worship a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible.
Shame on Dr. White. He's dripping with pride, smugness, vitriol, and pettiness. Where's your grace, brother? Nobody lights a lamp and puts it under a basket. Would anyone think White behaved in a way his light shined before men? So many presuppositions, begging the questions, and personal attacks too. These Christians had a chance to get through to this young Mormon and blew it. I'm starting to wonder if Calvinists, like the Mormons, have the right God/Christ too. Sad; sad; sad.
James White need to go to how-to-be-nice school. I’ve never seen him act graciously to anyone he debates.
God ordained his piss poor attitude..so
He is nice to some like Muslims and Catholics but to others especially on his podcast he is very uncordial!
What a great platform bro bring on the tough subjects of todays theological differences. And what an amazing opportunity it could be to bring people to Christ. And Mr. White is just squandering an incredible opportunity because he just won’t get out of his Calvinistic echo chamber. Calvinism and itself reminds me of politics. That tribal nature that everyone feels more comfortable with someone that agrees with them that they think is smart. So damaging
Another reaction some people might have when hearing the debate between these Calvinists and the Mormon is to give up on religion and spirituality completely. The Calvinists are talking nonsense and a person may already know enough about Mormonism to know it isn’t true. The unfortunate conclusion some might reach is that all faiths are a confused mess that distracts them from real life. I really wish Calvinists weren’t so on fire to spread their distorted version of grace.
Only to Christians. They seek to convert Christians mostly
This is probably why we really need to expand the horizon on christianity and its history. Calvinism isn't all of christianity, so is Protestantism. People should really check all the churches, even the questionable catholics.
I recommend checking out eastern orthodoxy, their theology with regard to the ultimate purpose of man is amazing.
If God has predetermined everything, why does he WORK (present tense) all things according to the counsel of His own will? Wouldn't it be God HAS WORKED (past tense) all things according to the counsel of His own will?
I like 19:00 a lot. We are defending the Creativity of God.
Yes and just at 17 minutes when Leighton says there is a difference between God using evil actions happening to bring about good purpose vs. producing and determining the evil to occur!
Dear Dr. Flowers, I know you have said that you have determined not to read our comments, but, I have determined to write you here, anyway in case you determine to change your mind and determine to read this anyway, or more accurately, God tells you to read it and you listen to Him.
I was raised simultaneously under three polar-opposite church denominations, Presbyterian, Baptist (free-will) and Pentecostal. But, in my 30's God opened my eyes to the fact that I had always been "taught" the Bible and never really "learned" from the scriptures.
I was spiritually raised Calvinist unaware. While I wasn't taught the extremes I am seeing from these Calvinists, I did lean towards God being always in control. I still believe that, but not what I am seeing today.
I broke from each and every church, and from any commentary and spent three years primarily studying the Bible Sola-scriptura. I used the KJV, Unabridged Dictionary with archaic words, Strong's Concordance, and the Thompson Chain Reference Bible which has cross references but not commentary so I could keep everything in context.
My study was on Predestination, Election, Free Will and Salvation. I didn't assume anything. I never studied Calvin or any Free-will specific leaders or their doctrines as such. My study was extensive for three years and continued more off-and-on for two decades that followed.
My conclusion was that man has a restricted free will and God is in control, not to cause man to sin, but to intervene so that all things happen for the benefit of the saved and for the Glory of God.
At the end of this research, I researched what Calvin taught (not really studying Calvin) and found a great summary of the beautiful acronym, TULIP. Apparently, I found a very shallow explanation of what they believe and teach.
I looked for Arminius, but never found anything reasonable that defined his belief, except that an "Armenian believes in free will of man."
I haven't been able to accurately express what I learned until recently. Here is what I learned.
Total Depravity:
I believe in the total depravity of the sinner (Saints are saved, sinners are not.) He has a sin nature and there is nothing he can think, believe in, love, hate, or practice or not do, to save himself. However, when the Gospel is preached to him, he cannot help but see the light. He can reject the light, or not. By rejecting the light, he hardens himself and may reach a point in which God no longer draws him to the Savior.
By not rejecting the light, man defaults to belief. The process of transitioning from sinner to saint may come in different practices such as confession, the sinner's prayer, the Roman Road, etc. But, Salvation comes from him believing he is a hopeless sinner and only the Blood of Christ can atone for his sins.
Saints are free from the law of sin and death. He may live spiritually and become a super-hero of the faith, or carnally and die an early death, but at the Judgement Seat of Christ, anything he did that was not to the Glory of God will be burned away and then, he will be judged for reward, on those things he did for Christ. The carnal saint may have nothing left, and be ashamed, but he is not judged on his sin.
Election:
I find that Election consistently refers to office. Jacob represented the family from whom the Messiah would come, as would the Israelites as a whole. Jesus was the Elect Messiah.
Atonement:
God's sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to pay for the sins of each and everyone in the world, but only those who accept the substitution will realize it's benefit. I don't call it "limited".
Grace:
While I strongly believe that anyone who hears the Gospel can understand that they are a sinner and need a savior, he can, and often does, resist, maybe even multiple times. Over time, some sinners become softer and are eventually saved, and others hardened and eventually turned over to a reprobate mind.
Perseverance of the Saints.
I believe that God keeps the Saints, regardless of whether they fall away from the faith or not, whether they commit a grievous sin or not. However, that is based on true salvation and not someone playing the hypocrite, that is someone pretending to be saved, or follows a false doctrine of salvation. These are, and always have been sinners who would die in their sins anywhere along their time-line.
Predestination:
Predestination can mean two things:
Our final destination is to be in the Kingdom with God and Christ.
In this life on earth, God has a perfect will for us. We may follow it, or not. If not, God has an acceptable will or path for us to follow. Just as David diverted with Bathsheba, and Paul with John Mark and Barnabas.
Salvation:
Saving Grace is like the sun at noon on a clear day when the Gospel is first heard. The sinner sees it, and he may reject it and run back into darkness, or not reject it. Not rejecting it is, by default, accepting it. This is where I see man not having any part of his salvation. God makes it obvious and man either rejects it or doesn't. Man's rejection is his choice, but, as the saying says, "Even a blind man knows when he is in the sun." Man may continue to reject it, call it evil, run from it, and deny it. After awhile the man will become hardened and never accept it, but he will be responsible for rejecting it. The Saint, on the other hand, will not be able to claim he is saved because he believed, or because he had faith, or because he made a choice even though he did these things. His one and only grounds for salvation is that Jesus paid the price. The fact that he did not reject that gift, is not his work.
After all these videos comparing Calvinism and Free Will, I have to also add "The Sovereignty of God' even though it was not one of the points of my initial study. At that time I could not conceive anyone not understanding God's Sovereignty as simple as it is.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. That, to me, includes the laws of science which we have discovered, and laws of sin and righteousness. We know about the laws of relativity, thermodynamics, gravity, and the law of sin and death. I believe there are other spiritual laws, as well, that we may not have identified.
Adam's sin started a series of events that eventually led to the Great Deluge (Noah's Flood for those who might not understand.)
From Adam to Noah, the Bible records that God constantly intervened. From God trying to convince Cain not to let sin control him, to naming the fathers in the linage of Christ as a warning of the impending judgement, God was there and in control.
In Job and other places the scriptures teach that Satan has to get God's permission to tempt or touch. The scriptures also report times God answers prayers and otherwise manipulates events and history.
God is sovereign. He gets His way, even if it means He manipulates people by feeding one to a fish, changing kings, healing a man on the Sabbath. In His sovereignty, God uses people's choices, and sometimes directly intervenes for His own glory. His prophesies are true and accurate and what He says He will do, He does. But, I can't believe I am even saying this, GOD DOES NOT SIN OR MAKE SOMEONE SIN!
All I can say is that if the Blood of Jesus Christ, God's work alone, is not sufficient to forgive me of my sins and to be my righteousness when I stand before God, it will have been better that I had never been born. I have no other hope. There is no other hope.
Thank you, Dr. Flowers,
I don't believe we are at odds in our faith. Neither of us considers "having faith, believing, accepting God's free gift, or salvation" a work on man's part. We have a different way of expressing it and a little different way of seeing the process. When we see the light, the only work we can do is reject it. Otherwise, it is the work of Christ who saves us.
Thank you and God bless you and your ministry. I look forward to meeting you.
Its all without purple!
Red and blue dont mix.
Love your work Dr. Flowers
keep on keepin' on.
My Bible College Dean used to caution me to argue carefully lest I "win the argument but lose the soul." Winning the argument but destroy destroying the sinner is not winning!
Why does God need to glorify Himself? In my mind it’s simply demonstrating His nature to His creatures to prompt them to the proper reverence of their Creator. In other words, God glorifies Himself for our good. He, Himself, needs nothing.
I mean I would also make the argument that Kwaku is actually stupid.
I just watched this and when they talked about the Holocaust I had to comment. This was my comment I posted.
"First let me say I'm 100% against Mormons. But I do want to say I'm also 100% against Calvinism. God gives man free will, our free will does not interfere with his will being done. The Holocaust did not surprise God because God is omnicient and knows everything that will happen, but he didn't cause it, decree it, or stop it because God allows man to have free will to choose to do good or evil. The reason it's not purposeless if God allowed the Holocaust to happen and did not decree it to happen is because those men who committed those evils will be held accountable and justice will be served. God is not the author of evil or the author of sin. In Calvinism it blows my mind, they think God decrees evil to happen to glorify himself. That is insane. God is not dependent on the actions of man to glorify himself. God glorifies himself through SALVATION, which is offered and extended to all men through Jesus Christ if they believe, repent, and be born again. Geez, I love Jeff and Dr. White but I can't get down with Calvinism"
You seem to know a lot about God, but you cite zero authority for your assertions.
True Christian.
Well put.
Stephen Otto oh I do it often on my Facebook true Christian but I didn't on here because I was driving.
Kwaku sailed right into white. Did you see right at the beginning when Kwaku completely took white off guard. White moved backwards in his chair “GET SOME”. Neither of them are in God’s will. We could take a lesson
If sin is that which goes against God and His purposes yet God ultimately purposes everything then no man can sin since all things are purposed by God. This is why Calvinism makes no sense.
James White often glorifies himself. He would convince more people to hear him out if he checked his ego once in awhile.
If God decrees evil, God is the one responsible for, and reason and source of, all evil.
That world has no need for the Satan. It renders such an agent as second fiddle to God. As one might seek to appoint an ultimate source of evil in this world as the NT writers seem to do, suggesting Satan as that source, and particularly not God.
Shouldnt this be far behind us in the need for teaching basics? Answer yes, unfortunately this must be taught and I am thankful for Dr Flowers doing such.
When James says, "Then evil is meaningless," it certainly sounds like an appeal to emotion.
The whole false equivalency of calling evil purposeless evil if God doesn't cause it, is ludicrous and unbiblical.
In Calvinism, the Son of righteousness redeems the Father of evil.
"shocked off my thrown"
I burst out laughing!
It's like Calvinist's forget who the prince of this world is and what he's doing!
Satan and his ministers tempt us to commit evil...God uses the evil for good!
Without pain, suffering, and evil we would not NEED a Savior...enduring this is was leads us to Christ!
We concur this once we come to him with faith...WITH the COMFORTER that is sent to help us through!
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
2 Thessalonians 12
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
What determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 IF ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But IF ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Psalms 95
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Israel gloried in their works and became vain before the Lord and this angered him, for the works were already finished FROM (not before) the foundation of the world...not the determining works of the Lord, but the works that will lead us to our salvation!
Hebrews 4
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye WILL hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same EXAMPLE of UNBELIEF.
Due to Israel's vanities God gathered for himself a remnant that believed and then the rest were BLINDED...he offered salvation to the Gentiles through faith to provoke them to Jealousy!
The reason some people come to God with faith and some don't, can be due to many factors...personal pride is one and another major factor is Religious brainwashing which is the making of Satan's LIES...This becomes a generational curse!...Another lie of Satan is leading a man/woman to believe that those lies were predetermined by God who is LOVE and cannot tempt a man with evil!
This so absurd...all these "scholars" arguing when God said, he will destroy the wisdom of the world and confound the wise with tht which is foolish! :)
It's sooo simple...Hear the Gospel, willingly believe it and eat the good of the land or refuse to and be devoured by the sword! THE LORD HATH SPOKEN IT!!! :)
Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Just a general statement.
Proverbs 20:24 reads, “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?” A general statement about all his steps.
Proverbs 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground - whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 19:21: “Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.” Whatever humans anywhere in the world are planning and doing, what stands is God’s will.
Jeremiah 10:23: “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.”
Read the book Job and find out whether God ALLOWED satan to test job.
Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
God is in control of all things. He doesn't make us sin, we naturally are inclined to sin. God doesn't make the rapest rape, but He allows it to happen. If God has the ability and power to stop the rapest, but doesn't, then by default He has ordained it.
Luke 1
Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
I Need to study this first! :)
I have a few questions!
Why would GOD ever have the need to ask a question?
Isaiah 1
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Why would God encourage us to pray? Can we influence him?
Philippians 4:6 - Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
John 15:7 - If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].
Matthew 26:41 - Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
Why does God grieve?
Genesis 6
6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Psalm 78
40 How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert!
Isaiah 63
10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
Isaiah 65
3 A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;
Why do the heavens rejoice when a person comes to the Lord by Faith?
Luke 15
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”
"Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases."
As you can see he is doing way more than just that which he pleases!
A can assure you that evil does not please the Lord, he is tolerating it, for the purpose that it is that which brings us to him in our times of weakness, pain, and suffering! No one ever calls out for a Savior when they are on top of the world!
He patiently uses evil doings of the wicked to reach out his hand, that we just might stretch out ours and grab hold of his, that we humbly submit to him in need of a Savior to be pulled out of the hole we are in called life!
@@KISStheSON... Hi Stacey, 😊 I apologise, I should have greeted you first.
I don't believe any Calvinist believes God orchestrates sin, man is responsible for sin. R.C Sproul explains this really well, he says men have free will, but what do we mean when we say "free will", do we have free will to be pure in heart and blameless before God? No, the bible teaches that we are "dead" in our trespasses, that we are marred by sin caused from the fall. So immediately we know that our "free will" has limitations. God has given us His law, he urges us to obey Him and love Him with an undevided heart, yet how many times do we see His chosen nation turn their backs to Him in rebellion.... Does God orchestrate this, no, this is the natural heart of man. Can God control this? Yes. Can God wipe us all of the earth right now? Yes. Could God have stopped the Holocaust from happening? Yes. Why? Because He is sovereign and omnipotent. Why, didn't he stop it from happening? Because, it wasn't His will to stop it. This is what Theologians mean when they say both God and man are responsible, man is responsible because it's his will to carry out a sinful act, and God because he has the power and authority to stop it but chooses not to because it isn't His will to do so, hence God has ordained it to come to pass. And God will work all things for good and for His will. Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
In response to the noted scripture on prayer, do you believe God answers prayer according to His will or your will?
Blessings
That's why no Calvinists will evangelize by starting with God determining people to hell or heaven. No one would even want to get close to God as they describe. Reformed church would only teach Calvinism to young converts and doctrinate them.
its a tough sell, for sure ....every unsaved person, Catholic and many Protestants will reflexively react negatively against such a repugnant view of God
The Pharisees & Saducees often debated themselves, the Pharisees claiming to be more pious & giving God ALL the glory, while the Saducees only believed in the material world.
Case in point: Both were wrong.
ravissary79 -- Indeed. My point was this; for those who think Calvinism speaks rightly of God, because Mormonism is obviously wrong, thats it's either one or the other, I propose a 3rd option:
Like the Sadducees & Pharisees believing themselves ELECT for Salvation, because they were bilogically Jews, they're BOTH wrong.