Forgotten Classes: Why They Were Discontinued | League Of Legends
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
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League of Legends is known for having a very diverse array of classes to categorize the roster of now more than 160 champions. Yet despite that, there are still plenty of classes or archetypes in the game that haven't been explored beyond maybe one or two champions. Today we're gonna discuss Forgotten Classes, why Riot doesn't make more of them, and what challenges they face in the modern era.
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#LoL #Classes #Champions
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I would like to nominate Shen as a paladin by your definition of what a paladin class does.
Also you have Ornn that provides item upgrades for its team, while holding its own.
Ornn is a tank mage bruiser shaman paladin necromancer ninja .....
Shen would be more of a puppet master right?
@@thelazygamer7701 his q is not a puppet
more a vanguard like braum. paladins typically have a heal
@@TitoBandito6 but shen has more offensive capabilities than vanguards, so its hard to say
One thing I miss from Dota 2 is how they were able to manage summoner champs really well, and theres a load of them. Most are really difficult, but its really interesting to watch a good player push them to the limit.
They Still are.. but Necronomicon Broke that and ended up Nerfing everyone that uses them pretty well.. but Summoners might come back soon just because they kept buffing their Core Items..
Fr mastering micromanagement in dota 2 is the most fun i had playing dota 2
@@nullwand3971 Yeah and Zoo Meta is the Most painful Meta to Play against just because they can run you down so Hard and you can't do Jackshit about it..
You need to pray that you can out Scale them or Handle them while they haven't reached their powerspike yet which is Hard to do because you Also need time to powerspike too..
Also, it's the only Meta that is difficult to go up against just because of the sheer Numbers they can offer in a Teamfight..
And the Good thing about them is that you can do things alone and have your pressure Doubled even better just by summoning or controlling stuffs while having none of the clunkiness or the weaknesses that League has as long as you knew how to Macro..
Dota champs are waaaay more unbalanced btw
@@lazarnikolic65 the balance in Inbalance, means every hero are good at their things, and have obvious weakness.
Caster summons are very doable within the QWER-format. Press R to cast the summon, then press R again to switch to the abilities of the summon. Exactly like the shapeshifters, except instead of your own abilities, it's your summons abilities. Would also work with a permanent pet, which would allow the Beastmaster archetype to flourish.
That or just allow people to have additional keybinds just for those champs and they need to add a targetting function for all champs for pets/summons that isn't an ability because for whatever reason all abilities have a small delay even if cast time is 0
Would honestly love to see a beastmaster done as a hybrid summoner/puppetmaster style archetype.
8:38 controlling more characters even with 4 buttons is doable. Hots' Rexxar and Misha are example of this. In Hots it's normal to have "passive" that can be activated so you have 5 buttons but idea is the same. His "passive" is clickable and works as if you right click but with his pet Misha and some skills are used by Misha others by Rexxar. It was hella fun to play.
Dota 2 also have multiple summoners but it retains RTS-like control of individual units so it kinda obvious how to control summon/pets.
I was about to say this.
Like in Dota 2 you have Nature's Prophet where you can turn terrain into minions that you can square select to then order to attack. There's Beastmaster that summons 2 types of minions: an attack minion that can come in pairs, and essentially a moving ward. Then thw most notorious summoner, if you even call him one, is Meepo who's like playing 5 duplicates of the same character who each have individual cooldowns on abilities but only one life bar (if one dies, all of them die).
I guess the thing that restricts League from having macro-based summons is the lack if square select for example, since it is designed to have the player only control one entity, and the compromise they had for it would be to have abilities direct the summon's moves (Annie and Ivern), or abilities that redirect a summon's AI aggro (Yorick, Malzahar).
Give me The Lost Vikings pls
Theres also Abathur which to this day no other moba has come close to a character like him.
At best league got yummi but trying to compare abathur with yummi is a travesty
@@jeromepickles2498 I just now only heard of Abathur and just look him up: what a crazy fucking idea for a MoBA character, I love it. Sadly, I don't think Riot would EVER put it in League; its just not their design principles, mainly because every Champion is designed to function in soloq. But, man, would I play the hell out of a champion like that in League.
Shen is the closest we have to a Paladin:
1) He is able to hold his own in lane and contribute damage with his Q
2) Gives his allies support with his W and Ult
3) Able to draw aggro and tank for his team with his E
Not your stereotypical Paladin clad in golden armor and light but still pretty close to a Paladin in terms of gameplay. I love Paladin classes in games which is why I fell in love with Shen's playstyle the moment I picked him up.
I had a thought, he kind of hybrids between the paladin and a bit of a puppet master (if we go by this videos logic for orianna, azir and illaoi), shen's sword is moved around, and comes to him giving him damage or protection... Maybe I'm grasping too thin.
I know, right? When will they expand the Draven class. There's only one champion in that class. Hmm. I wonder who could it be.
Pick the correct answer
A.Draven
B.DRAVEN
C.Drobën
D.Not Draven ,DRAAAAAAAAVEN
@@CrabCrabCrabskateCrab The correct answer is E. It's DRAAAAVEN! THE GLORIOUS EXECUTIONER!!
KLEEEEEEEEED
Can you sign my keyboard pls :)
I think renata was set up to be a sort of puppet master. If her W was changed to instead place her totem somewhere, she could use her q with it to stun, reflect e's, or that could be the source of the ult. When she first came out that's something I wished happened, and it seemed like she was designed to be like that and then they changed her w because it was too much of a headache.
interesting thought, i dont think her q in todays state would make for a good abillity to move it tho. its far too useful for stunning instead of moving this totem for like 200 units. mabye her e could move it as well giving us potential for combos but i think at this point we might just think about a different champion
After watching, Taric's biggest problem is that that his ability to be a warden/enchanter is that it is the reward for a juggernaut combat loop. To make such a juggernaut viable as a support they gave him the mother of all super ults. which just restricts how good they can make his juggernaut loop lest he becomes broken when he gets more than the typical support budget. Imho the ult needs to go for the sake of his kit because it's a crutch that they force him to use because they go about kneecapping him because he's labeled as a support. Then kneecap him again because his crutch incidentally, potentially, and probably could cause the making of a T1000.
I approve of the reference.
I was really really REALLY hoping Bel'Veth would be a true summoner champion, someone who basically focuses primarily on the summons themselves and a lot less on the actual character, she felt so incredibly fitting with the whole Lavender Sea thing, her lil fishies and the fact that she just looked like your almost stereotypical "big villain who has underlings" character, but that didnt end up being a thing at all. I love summoners in pretty much any game that has them and while i honestly get that getting killed by potentially AI controlled creatures can be frustrating, i could list a whole bunch of bullshit champs as a counter point.
I think what Riot could do is make a summoner who doesnt really have an ultimate but similar to stance switchers uses the ultimate key for the summons abilities, also kinda like how you chose an ult for Heimer, simply pressing R and then Q W E for whatever you want them to use. That would bring in a big micro management factor which will probably very much distinguish good from bad summoner players.
Maybe one day, after Viego or Aphelios i think anything can happen at this point
THANK YOU! i’ve heard taric be described as a cleric and everyone agreeing and it drove me wild because he’s the only paladin in the game.
As a yorick main, I officially approve what is said in the video
How do you feel going 0-10 and still backdooring the nexus?
Hmm... I believe Malzahar could also be the summoner. And Shen kinda fits with what a paladin is supposed to do.
I think the main reason why summoned units are so bad is that if they were more advanced, the game would be far more buggy than it already is. This is so sad- there is plenty of cool ideas lying around that won't be used just because of these limitations.
I wish malzahar was considered a summoner but with those voidlings only surviving for 8 seconds, it's basically a wasted ability, I wish they were like Yoricks ghouls honestly
@@Mattsawesomenessyeah, i tried w max malz one time and fed to oblivion. Honestly i think going all in on the summoner idea would be more healthy then press E, press , kill
We kinda need more summoner champs in the game.
As a yorick player I agree
If not all 69 of us will seige the rito headquarters
i think, its not really possible in league without changing the engine
and changing (read - upgrading) it will make it impossible to run on weaker PC
and thus the playerbase will drop pretty significantly
not to mention what will happen to the most stable client we've ever seen
I agree, but bringing more living meatsticks to the gameis not creative.
We already have zombies, turrets, sand soldiers, void insects, and 2 summon ults, what new idea is left?
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2:30 am i hearing to much S? s s s s s s so loud
For paladin classes you can have 2 abilities one for support and other for damage. There you can have character who is good at lane and in tfs (around 11 minute mark) can start to support if top or deal their own damage if sup. Or a form shaper. With one form for supporting an otrher for for dps and you can choose on base or is a perma change similar to kayn
You could also go with like a fighter version of Lulu where the abilities are supportive when targeting allies and damaging when targeting enemies then every team fight you'd have to balance your offensive and supportive duties
So kayle?
Hey Vars, I think a great place to take your channel would be to give examples with reworks / new champion kits. Your content tends to stay in the theoretical and I think it would really help your channel to either partner with artists/designers to having some working prototype for what X champion would look like.
I definetely want a modern well designed summoner that would be cool
the more control a champ gives you the harder they become.
annie doesnt need to focus on tibbers any more than pressing who to target, so she can more focus on her own positioning, if she had control over tibbers like azir soldiers it would definitely be harder to play
I don't know i say a simple champion is harder than a complex one as there is not much to their kit meaning you have to find some other way to get an advantage and win but a complex one like Azir there is a lot of shit you can do so just get better at the champion and you can do more than what the simple one can do
As someone who mains summoners, I pray they manage to make one in the future.
i pray they make a support with summoners ability without being female had enough of those
As someone who has to play against them, I hope they burn in the depths of hell
@@alex2005z am sorry for your lost
Taric top is underrated. lethal tempo allows for him to be a powerful drain tank duelist. similar in playstyle to warwick during the laning phase. swapping to a more traditional peeling style during late game
You really need to read the abilities of other mobas.
In heroes they have multipul summoner types as well as a subclasses.
Arthas for example is a summoner that heals himself and is a tank. Abathur is a global support that summons minions in the lane hes in for constant lane pressure. Rexxars kit is 50% or 25% rexxar and 50 or 75% misha.
The subclass in heroes was "specialist" which was later taken out. Basically heroes that could provide pressure to turrets without needing a minion wave. See inting sion. Azmodan for example can simply use his ult which summons massive amounts of minions then summon demon lutenant and 3-4 demon warriors instantly. Ragnaros could use his ult on any lane to clear them of minions. His passive also stopped enemy from pushing. Murkey could literally kill any structure given enough time with his infinite ult damage. He also only gave 25% of gold and xp when you killed him.
In dota 2 theres another subclass that is really only relevent in league for gangplank. The farmers. Basically tinker alchemist and meepo have certain things in their kit that allow them to farm better than any other champion. Alchemist created gold from killing minions, meepo had 5 copies of himself allowing him to be up to 5 places at once, and tinker had infinite cooldowns and wave clear allowing him to teleport anywhere on the map to clear waves.
Im still surprized that a strategist subclass never made it to any game. Like imagine if you could pick a champion in lol that allowed you to control 1-6 minions. Then you could move terrain and control turrets. Or another champion that changed the land around them giving debuffs or buffs. Like if you turned midlane into a area that healed harder then toplane to have more movespeed.
You forgot malzahar. He summons minions as well
Shouldn't Rell count as Paladin?
@@indrickboreale7381 rell doesnt have defense, he just goes in does 1 combo then dies. Thats his job
also by summoner he means champions who's playstyle depends on their summon
Rell can't also fend for herself. Like, at all. Her damage is negative.
@@zsomborszigeti6797 malz gets half of his damage and waveclear from his minions
these videos are very fun to hear, i just wish that riot's team would look a them more often so they'll remember what this game roster really look like instead of more high speed and dash based characters
The thing I see with this classes in regards to new implemented champions is team interaction. All these are more effective when played in tandem with your team while the philosophy for the recent champs have been more of "every man for themselve" type of approach. They have tried to push this back a bit by adding things to their passive to force them to be played as part of a team (Ex; Renata's, Samira's and Nilah's passive all requiring two people to be fully useful), but it hasn't change the mentality the past few years of development has brought to the game as a whole.
Honestly I think Illaoi is more of a constructor than a summoner
Just imagine Invoker from Dota 2 jumping into League.
Then remember Dota is a game where everything is bullshit to balance the other guy's bullshit.
What class could he be other than specialist (guy litteraly has 10 spells and a passive that flexes between 10 shapes)
Yeah, true. Riot already has a big problem with balancing shapeshifting champions (like Jayce or Nidalee), so Invoker would totally break them. Besides, there are champions that have a more visible gap between newbie and pro than the other. Now imagine what Invoker would create.
Anti-Carry. If he's able to adapt to the state of play or to his opponents in a way to shut them down in League he would likely be Support/Anti-Carry (as Riot would never allow such a character to be a proper full damage character).
great video as always. I hope you could make one on alistar. I don't know what exactly it would be on maybe his rework if he had one, maybe about how his kit hasn't changed much since the beginning of the game, I honesly just want to hear your opinion on him.
They took my extra ad on ult :( i miss crit alistar with a shitload of ad on r
They need to make a paladin champion that in some way scales with incompetence.
Maybe a passive that empowers the champion when teammates are dead?
Since we already get revives on Akshan how about this:
Passive: If no one in your team is alive you instantly respawn in base with like a 5 minute cooldown (Into the fantasy of being that last stand, the last hope to hold the line)
Q: Mark an enemy, the marked enemy takes some damage and is slowed by a small amount ~10-20% for 2-3 seconds. Any ally that attacks the target deals some bonus damage to the target with their first attack and gain a small increase in stats, if no one except you deal damage to the target you reset the duration on that buff and the buff is stronger (move speed, attack speed and adaptive power for example)
W: Give a shield yourself and to all allies around you, scaling down with the amount of allies (example 1 ally 100 shield, 2 allies both 75 shield, 3 allies all three 60 shield etc.) whenever a shield gets removed the person that had the shield heals for 50% of the shield amount, if the shield expires heal for the amount left on the shield when it expired. If there are no allies around you, you gain the shield and instantly heal for 50% of the shield value.
E: Slow yourself by 25% while charging over 1.5 seconds a cone, the longer you charge the smaller the cone gets charging it for up to 1 second slows all targets in the area by up to 50% for 2 seconds (depending on the charge time) if you charge it for more than 1 second stun the targets in the area for half the duration of your charge time then slow them by 50% for 2 seconds (after 1 second the cone would be the size of like a jhin trap activation radius)
R: Drop yourself to 1 hit point healing everyone in an area around you by the amount of health that you lost, you also gain a shield of the amount of health that you lost with a duration of 3 seconds, at the end of that duration gain health equal to the amount of shield that you have left. If you are the only one alive when casting this instead drop to 1 hit point and gain a shield equal to your max health for 3 seconds healing for the amount when it expires.
seperate controlls for units ... i mean meepo comes to mind from dota2 ... it would involve a lost of micro but its not unaccievable within the limitations of the base
the way you setup a second set of QWER is use SHIFT+ when holding shift down you would then be able to use the summons abilities, not your own. Summons abilities would level with your own, so you max Q its Q is maxed.
Something that I'd like to see that would fit right into the current design trends of champions is the concept of an agility tank, also known as a dodge tank.
The idea behind them is that they are a frontline that takes agro like a regular tank, but they survive through evasion rather than bulk.
A suggestion I made on custom lol champs was a melee AP champ with low damage ratio's but lots of utility ratio's, and the kit includes a low cooldown untargetable dash that destroys projectiles.
So they'd be fast, have CC and untargetability making them extremely slippery, but as they are in the tank class despite not building tank, they'd not do much damage and would be more like an annoying mosquito than the actual primary threat.
This champ sounds like cancer to play against. I love it.
as a neeko player, i have an extra five keys binded for unique summoner interaction (aka her passive transformations), that could also be used but I would see why they wouldn't want to
For summons they can do like Dota. Like switching between you and your summon
I would call Illaoi more a constructor than a summoner
Stationary, activates on abilities, plays around them, can be disarmed
To be honest easy fix for Yorick would be just give his W "upon destruction spawn graves".
The amout is depened on ability level
He would be in better spot if Riot reverse his nerfs.
he gets Graves himself spawning off of a basic ability?
@@apguyo exept people cry about "he is op and i can't do anything". And he REALLY need help set up later in the game.
I mean what you gonna do hit 16 minions to spawn 4 graves and expect enemy team to wait?
Dota/Dota 2 Chen, Meepo and beast master all have controllable pets which have 1+ skills and this is a QWER game, you group them with a number system usually and tab through them while using abilities. Its daunting at first but once skilled somewhat well its very rewarding and is the main thing league still is shying away from sadly. Hopefully with the new jungler coming out who spawns packs of dogs they will change this.
There's a few ways to go about a summoner class, a simple one would be using the alt click system to move your summon like the shaco clone. Then hold QWER, to use summon abilities, and tap QWER to use champion abilities. Also you could make it a supportive summoner, so they can have a bit more coverage.
8:05 Building Lethality and watching my Ghouls just remove half of my enemy laner's health in one jump is the best thing about playing Yorick.
I loved Taric specifically BECAUSE he was a Paladin. I've been a Bishop/Paladin player since as far back as Maplestory and I always loved the whole offense/defense split rather than full damage. For me, old Taric was fun because I could support my team while still being able to hold my own. New Taric is entirely team-dependent to do anything and it blows...
Try a game of taric top, trust me he’s perfectly fine in a punchout
Hes still very much a paladin just a holy one now. Meanwhile Leona is prot
@Max Powers Leona is a paladin in lore but in gameplay she's just a tank. In terms of gameplay a paladin is an equal split between damage support and tank but Leona is full tank as she has no support options and deals basically zero dmg
I don't get why it would be so difficult to give more precise control of Maiden, Tibbers, and Daisy by letting you select them and then move them independently. Pressing R while they're spawned moves your camera to them, let's you fully control and direct them, pressing R again goes back to your main champ. This is even more simple than what Dota does with Meepo. Seriously, if they can make Meepo work, League should be able to make a singular summon work.
Nah... You always control your champion in League. It's just how the game is designed, down to the engine. Summoned units are like extra unit you must control alongside with your champion. DOTA is built with more powerful engine and still retains that RTS element of being able to control multiple units
@@cloudynguyen6527 The invincible invisible minion needed for Yasuo's wind wall shows they can get creative with their solutions. I'm not sure how it would influence the spaghetti code, but I imagine if it just switched the values of which was summon and which was champion when you pressed the button it wouldn't change too much? Like it keeps your champion working on your last command, then if it completes it go to the summon / minion behavior, during this time your summon is the "champion." I'm probably making this sound simpler than it actually is, but it would dramatically improve how well those champions feel to pilot.
@@atino7169 The invisible minion windwall, and the design of Azir and Orianna shows Riot's ingenuity when it comes to circumvent their lack of RTS design. But the engine honestly holds them back a lot. I like your idea though I don't know if Riot ever thought of that. Maybe they did and tried but it must have not worked well as intended.
I don't know if you're familiar with Heroes of the Storm, but it's a MOBA very similar to League, only you don't have items or an obligation of last hit to get ressources. That opens up a lot of creative designs for characters and since you have no items, it's easier to balance than League champions.
In that game you can have a summoner that has a permanent pet (Rexxar) and whose gameplay revolves mainly around it, a paladin (Uther) that is the perfect definition of a paladin or constructor (Gazlowe) whose turrets are inherently part of his gameplay but are not sufficient to hold a lane or defeat an opponent. I suggest you try it out maybe for the character ideas that are very unique, creative and interesting. Examples would be Abathur, the Lost Vikings, Alextrasza, Whitemane, Ana, Lucio, Medivh or Alarak.
What's great about the game is that runes, summoner spells or items don't make the champion since there are none. Champions make themselves.
Well yea HOTs has a telent system though so that's why it dsnt have items. And HOTs is a blizzard property who basically wrote the modern book of class types that's why their class types are so distinct because they had classes since the first warcraft game. All those heroes talents and abilities come from the games they are from all blizz properties. League came out when wc3 was at its peak so it had to create champions that were NOT a a straight rip off.
I think another champion like Orianna or Azir would be a great addition to league. I honestly thought Vex would be that 3rd one but she ended up as an AP nocturne imo
For summoners: Malzahar is an example similar to Yorick where he uses his minions to push lanes and spawns aren't from his ult. They also created a new summoner character with Bel'Veth last year, wondering if she would fit in the kind of champion you are looking for
Ooo my favorite juggernaut, warden, and enchanter hybrid made the splash fabulous.
I'll be honest, I'd love to see a specifically "Summoner" champion adopting the idea of the Lost Vikings in Heroes of the Storm.
Each ability corresponds to a minion type, hmm, minus W, let's only make it 3 minions so that it's not too confusing.
Let's start with the basics of all minions. They'd stick with this champ at all times, or at least try to. Maybe they spread out and damage all enemies around you if you don't attack anything, but if you attack, they focus fire, if you move, they move there too. If you flash, they'll regroup on you and teleport to your location.
The minions, Q corresponds to a small minion, or rather, lets say four of them, they do PITIFUL damage, they're mainly meant like a chihuahua, biting at your heels. Procs on them are less powerful and shorter duration, and they're mainly meant to chip away at enemies over time. They're fast though, if you input to move somewhere, they'll get there first, though they can't get TOO far from their champ.
R minion would be like Yorick's... Karen. Big, Bulky, a monster. And dangerous, and tanky. The catch? Slow, as, molasses. If you move from a lane to another your R minion will take a while and you'll be limited in your power for a while.
Then how does it work in teamfights? Your E minion, about the same speed as you, it's job is to CC enemies so that your R minion can catch them. Maybe Q minion has a slow, while E minion has a knock-up or stun or catapult to get them into R range.
Your W would then be a defensive buff to your team, say, everyone gets a shield. (Note; minions and champ, not allies, or the allied shield is much weaker) and your entire posse regroups on you. Getting attacked? Fall in. Trying to catch up to an enemy, ghost/flash then W to bring everyone (R minion included) to them. Long cooldown to make up for it.
Now, do you press these skills to summon your minions? Nope, they're passives tied to that skill. Instead the buttons order an attack from that minion. A powerful R, a CC based E, a fast lunging Q, but to pair with that, the minions follow different "Tactics" based on that ability. Lets say you just R'd, you probably want someone dead, so they group up and everyone dogpiles that enemy getting an attack speed buff. You used your long range Q? You're trying to catch someone, so everyone gets speed and listens to your orders attentively. You just pressed W? You're in danger, they stick RIGHT by your side and focus ANYTHING attacking you. You used E? Then you're trying to drag someone to your R minion, so let's increase the CC effects.
It'd be easy to fail with a champ like this. But then again, I'd take a fun champ over a powerful one any day. It's why I don't play Annie.
Sounds like a super Zyra.
Based on the Bel'veth teases before she came out I was really hoping she would be the new summoner champ I would pick up after maining Yorick for a year. With the new jungle changes in preseason I'm just gonna move him from top to jungle and see how that works
There could be a Support constructor.His building could have interactions or supply passives to ally champions near them or activivly do something depending on the champions next ability.
There could also be a puppeter fighter who would have half his abilites on him and half on his puppet/mimic and the point would be that you could combo with your puppet like a tag team.
Sorry if i seem to be nitpicky, but I don't understand why Illaoi isn't considered a builder. Is it because she generates her tentacles passively ?
Something I think that would be interesting in league would be a character like ying from paladins, she’s kind of like heimerdinger but support based, she summons illusions that can heal nearby players and that she can also teleport to or detonate to deal a large amount of damage, I think she would be interesting to port over because of the idea that you can summon things to heal for you while you do dmg,though paladins is an fps so it’s very different from league
Bold of you to assume the donger isn't a support
@@azulyraazul9287 after worlds idk anymore
13:16 You know, I believe there's another 5v5 multiplayer online battle arena that has kinda figured out the Paladin Class and the Summoning class for a while now
Just saying
All of the champions on that list are comfort picks for me barring i'd say orianna, gangplank and sometimes azir because i need at least 5-6 games to get my mechanics to optimal levels. I am frankly more impressed in their champion design compared to the others as they really tried interesting and new themes for their champions, some like azir and illaoi have very satisfying moments and hemeideinger who is hyper consistent
Um Taric is quite obviously a Holy Paladin focused on heals meanwhile we have a protection paladin and her names Leona..... League champs especially OLD one usually fell into a spec rather than an entire archtype class.
Tryn is an arms warrior while Olaf is a beserk. Annie is a fire mage, Anivia is ice etc etc.
Can't rebind a whole set of Keys just for 1 Champ... let me introduce you to DotA2, where many Champs just get new Spells by buying an Item xD
But yeah, this it what makes LoL more playable for a wide audience.
Well there is an easy way to fix summoners and that is simply make them interact with your abilities better. Sure Ivern's Daisy does rush enemies he Q's and can be shielded by his E but none of these interactions help Ivern they help Daisy do her job better. By extension you could argue it makes Ivern stronger but the reality is the two are very disjointed from eachother and what is Ivern without daisy? The same can be said for Yorick and the maiden while he can have his Ghouls chase after someone there is a skill cap on how often he can get his ghouls out and the Maiden is very useful with Yorick but without him they both feel pretty mediocre.
Annie is the only Summon that works because yes Tibbers is largely a glorified minion but he is the only summon thats helping annie by standing there as he deals damage over time to nearby enemies and he is the only summon that can be used consistently. And if you build Annie with control in mind (Liandry's, Rylai's and so on) Tibbers doesn't even need to do much since he will always apply those effects by existing.
As for Shaco its half and half, as ap the clone does as intended but as AD the clone is rather just a meat shield and not anything reasonably impactful.
1/3/19 is the best I’ve gotten on Taric…
Discovered him today and love playing as him new main possibly
Now I dont play league so I dont know the full extent of the control scheme but if they need more buttons, one option is the way battlerite did it with having alternate effects if you held down shift when using the ability.
It would still require some work to make an intuative layout but it would allow something like "Q to summon and shift + Q to move summon to location"
I have an idea for summoners that can make them a bit more interesting, we can borrow an ability swap from shapeshifters to summoners.
once the summon has been summoned. your summoning skill button(in this case will be R button) will also change to control swap button.
now if you want to control said summon you can press R to swap control to that summon with their own QWE skill.
I loved Old Malza, voidling what you summoned was actually useful in so many ways
There was good strat on cd builds that made that you could have 3 voidlings in fight
Ou and AD Malza, Splitpush monster, ignore him for like 5 mins and you notice he is already destroying your inhibitor, Ad malza was amazing at jungling than ap counter part, you could solo baron at 20 min mark when it spawned
Good times
here's a puppet idea, like Elise you have your R from the beginning and with R you can leave your main body stationary and untargetable while you control the puppet with new abilities of his own, it would be like Yone's soul split ability, give the puppet it's own health bar while in puppet mode, to not make it op make it so that your main body takes half the damage the puppet takes and after it's destroyed it's left on a long cool down
An idea that could work with Yorick's maiden, which is sort of already a thing, is that she could maybe have her own moveset, but have it be something continuous happening.
This reminds me of the newest Dead by Daylight killer, the Knight. He can spawn 1 out of 4 different knights who do the same task but have different abilities. The maiden could have a "split push" version just like now, but maybe even one that focusses on fighting enemies, patrolling the map/where you sent her to to maybe even destroy wards, one to stay with you, etc. I don't know if this makes a lot of sense and would work in league, and I don't know if I want the maiden to get even better, but those are my thoughts.
As a Shaco main it is fun being a sort of 4 way mix of trapper, puppet master, assassin, and burst mage
I maybe have some idea for a puppet Master. Kinda like Aphelios using switching AA (after x AA switch the puppet) with a melee, ranged and healing/shielding puppet, maybe also one for CC. Q is for the positioning (like Annies Tibbers, but with AA like Azir). W for a dash or something to prevent dying and E for switching between 2 available puppets (also like Aphelios) and the ult is empowered puppets with stronger DMG/healing/longer CC and/or all puppets summoned and attacking/CC/Healing/Shielding and having Health (so you can kill them to disable them). It could be in any lane and with any role.
theres a summoner in blizzards moba that was actually good. they used the attack move to control the summon. so you would give up attack move and one of your abilities to give your summon an ability to use and yourself 2. it would be its own free moving unit, not leashed to you
Honestly I think imo a conceptually good summoner design could be something like Elise where she has 2 forms but instead of r changing form it rotates ur currently minion and it's abilities and than maybe at level 6 u can choose to evolve an ability similar to getting khazix r
Looking at the comments there are a few neat ideas for new champions to fill these roles. It would be cool if vars did a video looking at some of the ideas the community post for champions that could fill these spots and kick round a few of the ideas around
Pusher was a class with Morde, Yorick, Illaoi, Nasus ect. That were great 1v1 champs that won lane and seiged great.
Funnily enough, I think we could muster one more puppetmaster design for the game... while I believed it to be an original idea at first, after some thought I realized it's a sort of fusion of Azir, Orianna, and Zed. Anyone familiar with Naruto, I'm thinking of someone similar to Kankuro, and using him as a framework makes the design pretty easy to imagine.
The puppet would always be present, like Orianna's ball, but it would autoattack, like Azir's soldiers. The puppetmaster's autos would be melee, already distinguishing them from Orianna and Azir, and the puppet's autos could be small cleaves, definitely shorter than Azir's soldiers' range (probably like two minions wide and two minions long). That's probably all their passive would be, an explanation of the puppet and its autos. Oh, and if the puppetmaster leaves the puppet's range it returns to the puppetmaster's "carrying case", and would need to be redeployed with an ability.
His Q could be the standard repositioning tool where you send the puppet to sit somewhere, but for this puppetmaster the puppet would stop on the first enemy champion hit (or first enemy including minions and monsters, if it needs to be harder to land), damaging and displacing them for like half a second. At first I thought it could also deal damage to anything caught in the tether between the puppet and its master, but 1) nobody would do that to enemy champions because you would want to be able to get the follow-up autos by smacking them with the puppet, and 2) it would grant a LOT of waveclear by moving the puppet behind minion waves, which would definitely be too strong.
The W could be another AOE, like Orianna's W, but instead of slowing it could shred a resistance, and like Zed's E it could be done by both the puppet and the puppetmaster, with an additional effect for landing both. Maybe if only the puppetmaster lands the W it's just damage, but if he lands the W with both himself and the puppet it could restore a portion of the damage dealt or something.
The E could be the "return" button, like Azir moving to his soldiers or Orianna bringing her ball back (or placing it on a teammate), but for this puppetmaster it just pulls the puppet back to him. Nothing crazy, right? Except if there are enemies between the puppet and the puppetmaster, they are carried back to the puppetmaster and the resulting collision causes a stun (I don't know what a "fair" duration would be, but I think because it's not targeted 1.5 seconds is a fair minimum). Then the puppet and the puppetmaster could wail on the caught enemy (or enemies).
I think a really cool ult would be an Iron Maiden type deal where the puppet eats a champion (probably not literally, but it could stuff them in like a cage in its chest or something), and it would suppress them for... 2.5 seconds? I know how people feel about suppression, and I feel the same way, but 1) this is an ultimate ability, so it wouldn't be super frequent (probably with a longer CD than Malz ult), and 2) the champion would be untargetable by friend and foe alike, like with Tahm Kench's suppress. They would take the damage upon activation of the ult, and if it's lethal the puppet would just eat them (purely aesthetic, no buffs or anything), but otherwise they will be released between the puppetmaster and the puppet (or facing away from the puppetmaster, if it would be too much to allow for a potential followup from the E). Additionally, the puppet would be able to move, but would not be able to attack (and the W would be disabled), so the puppetmaster's damage would be gimped somewhat while suppressing the target, but they could control the position of the suppressed enemy. I think this creates some really interesting opportunities to not only catch priority targets, but to remove frontliners from the equation for a bit and maybe even invalidate their engagements by eating them and then moving them back into their team, effectively resetting to the game to a neutral state. If that's too much though, it could either deal no damage, or the puppet could be immobilized instead so that the ult is strictly damage and a suppress. I would prefer the former personally because I think the utility is really cool and fun, and removing it and keeping the damage would just make it another Malz ult. I would say if the damage is removed it could also be used on allies, but the only thing that could possibly be worse than Tahm Kench eating your target enemy squishy would be an untargetable puppet eating your target enemy squishy and then instantly pulling them into the enemy backline, so... maybe not. Then again, if you're already in the backline then you could either focus the puppetmaster first, who would not be able to eat himself, or switch your focus after the other squishy is eaten to the puppetmaster who has now gimped their damage, so maybe it wouldn't be TOO bad. I'm not sure.
After typing all this out I figure they'll be a bruiser or an assassin, though whether they should be AD or AP I don't know. Both AP bruiser and assassin itemization is kind of rough, but the kinds of tools this puppetmaster has may require them to be indirectly weakened by being forced into that itemization, especially considering the fact that the intentional lack of mobility in their design could be effectively nullified by giving them access to Prowler's Claw or Stridebreaker.
Not too crazy, but crazy enough to be interesting and fun, at least in my opinion. There's probably room for some stupid passives in there, but I personally don't want any more overloaded champions, so I'm not going to try all that with this one. Anyone who came across this and actually read it all, let me know what you think. Hopefully I did better than Riot's been doing the past few years.
I wonder, would it maybe be a thing to mark summoners, constructors, and puppetmasters under a shared category because of the similarity with how they rely on something other than themselves to exert pressure? Also, a fun idea would be a constructer support whose constructs give buffs or heals instead of dealing damage, could lead to a cool playstyle.
I think the reason that we do not see any new summoners is that they are difficult to create and balance. It is already difficult enough to balance normal champions.
i never thought of Orianna and Azir as a unique class, and now i want more champs like them, but in different main classes, like a puppet master tank or a brawler, and while in there, fuck around with a puppet master enchanter rework for yuumi to see if that can make her less dumb while keeping the idea of a enchanter who covers herself with her own team
Crazy idea: “shapeshifting” Paladin champ whose ult lets him switch between forms that trade supportive stats for offensive ones and vice versa? With QWE remaining basically the same between forms, but say his CC goes from melee to ranged, a shield changes from selfcast only to the opposite, something like that.
Tyr does that in Smite. A really finicky god to play and they wisely made him inderpowered to make up for his versatility. However, this makes it so he is never too powerful. In essence, he is always underpowered.
I go in, get a few hits in, switch to defensive, and still get killed, because they can't make him tankier, however, his initial burst is nothing like a regular fighter or assasin burst, sooo... More of a nuisance to the enemy?
Never imagined Gangplank as a constructor. Nice interpretation.
Old taric was your answer against ad-heavy teams and his aura was always a good thing to have when going agaijst stuff like zed who has AoE AD shreds or even yasuo who has his Q that goes throught everything.
Also his old W made you relevant when dealing with other tanks.
Now hes exclusively support and if you ever see him outside botlane it's because his numbers are too strong or some new item works too well on him.
I just hate how riot copes to this day with their "auras are bad lmao" and then release nilah with an experience aura.
Throught out the summoner/ puppet master part Malzahar sat at th side sulking
Orianna is a puppet character by fighting game standard, and azir is a close second,
one way that has not been tapped into too much, would be a control scheme like zato,
you press the ability and then recast it to use the puppet's ability, and so on, and either use their q or r to control the movement of the puppet,
would it be a nightmare to learn, balance, code, and understand? YES
it would technically be possible to separate abilities into press and hold variants for characters without skill shots with press going to the main champion and hold going to the puppet
I'm surprised you didn't mention illaoi with constructors since you don't get full control on where tentacles go which are a big source of her kit.
I miss when Malzahar was more of a summoner playstyle. It’s a shame it was too strong; I really enjoyed how people would freak out at the sudden burst of damage voidlings could do.
are you talking about the armour pen builds? XD those were sometimes funny.
For summoners like yorick, I'd be curious to see if it made sense to have one or two of his abilities be specifically for him all the time. His Q would need to stay all the time for sure. Then when the ult isn't summoned he gets a set of moves geared specifically towards making him more of a threat. The minions are just an added bonus with no real way to direct them. But once he gets his ult out that's when those abilities change to give him access to mourning mist and something else that takes his minions into effect. The minions may have to be downgraded in power to compensate but it could help make him much more consistent
Interestingly, I think that's what Riot is doing with K'Sante. It's a test to see how a character like that does in the game.
@@zozihn8047 I think you may be right about that. I know in the earlier k'sante video vars did he talked about the disappointment of his abilities being more altered stat wise as opposed to overall excecution of their function. Like what happens with gnar. I think if they are able to figure out the best way to meet player expectations with k'sante they would have a perfect blueprint to breathe new life into the summoner class :)
I think if you’re talking about summoner champions you should take a look at Dota. You mention QWER being the limitation in league, but I’d say it’s the decision/limitation of only being able to have focus on a single unit. (You can’t click on Tibbers and control of him, you do it through ctrl/alt binds while on Annie)
What could make Yorick more consistent and rewarding to play (not dependant on external factors), as a Yorick main, is if he could control Maiden with alt. Likely they don't do this because he's not popular enough, or spaghetti code, Yorick also has a ton of bugs. I don't need to control the ghouls, I can control them well enough and replace them fast enough, but I can't control Maiden, and she's where most of Yorick's power budget lies. If I could just reposition her while I'm attacking an enemy champion that tries to kill her, it would really add a lot of skill expression to his kit, and would make him feel like the only true member of the summoner subclass in League of Legends.
League should have long ago adopted the Dora unit control system imo. Summoner heroes like dotas visage, warlock and Chen can be all about controlling thei summons and still be flexible enough to pilot
I think there are some fairly straight forward answers to some of these problems, and a few champions I'd like to see, in particular a constructor paladin type, who could in principle be like the "ranged Udyr" they have been talking about. Imagine a champion summoning stationary totems that buff their team and nerf the enemy team when in proximity of them, with a slow/movespeed buff, adaptive damage increase/reduction, heal/grevious, and a damage increase mark/attack speed reduction or something. Boost the effects with the number of different totems, making 3-4 totems simultaneous very strong, and 1-2 totems an okay boost.
For summoned units, the simple solution is ALT+click for movement, and then R+ability is a summon ability, kinda like Karma
Too sweaty for LoL if it's any more advanced that three hit dash reset it won't make the cut
Yeah - I miss old Taric. I still mostly played him support, but it was nice to be a decent melee combatant rather than a big slow enchanter like he is now.
He was always a niche pick - but great against AD heavy teams due to boosting armor for the team. To the support role sort of like Rammus is to jungle. In both cases damage was meh, but great stun and boosts team survivability. Just from the backline rather than from the front.
I think a paladin character would be doable if they had a branching structure like Kayn. They have their base kit but then at some point in the game they get an option to either dedicate more towards support or more towards solo, its not a perfect solution but I think it would be doable. As for puppet masters I think that either having them work similar to a transforming champion or altering the formula of Yorick somehow could make them manageable. Give 3 abilities to the main body, and 3 abilities to the puppet and have R to switch between the two ability sets.
can you make a viedeo why every new champ is an scrimmischer now days ? all junglers the last 3 jears are skrimmischers .wer are the burst mages ,assasins ,real tanks,control mages,specialists or every other class
Paladins work best with shields not healing in games that is, as it gives them a temporary burst of self-sustain or support but doesn't overstep by fully reversing damage dealt.
not only was the last one aurelion sol, but they got rid of that part of his kit because it was too frustrating to play
Yorick is one of my most played champion because I really like minions, I would love to see a new summoner in the game that has different drawbacks and weaknesses
like, I feel like a summoner should be weak without their summons, but they should get a bit more control over them
Aphelios has just 5 qs, what if the move a minion ability had idk, 2 or 3 varients, maybe they are different depending on which kinds of minions he has, tanky minion to soak up damage, maybe has a ranged poke tool like yorick, and if its a ranged minion, maybe it has a melee targeting tool, so either you tank and the minions shoot, or you shoot while the minions tank,
Maybe it's like Kayn where you can only pick one variant to upgrade too over the course of the game, idk, I really want a summoner that doesn't feel too gimicky while also not feeling frustrating to play
I think zyra is good too, I like the concept of using two abilities to summon the minions is nice, maybe the minions summon is also how they are controlled, ie, given 1 instruction and follow till death, if they are summoned with no target, maybe they just guard the area like a trap that attacks whoever comes close
I honestly have no idea how to balance them I just want a summoner :')
take a look at heroes of the storm, there you have a lot of originality in terms of gameplay desing
sometimes im hours talking how to take heroes from HotS and put them into LoL, leaving core talents and the most original ultimate
take uther for example, he resembles something similar to the old kit of taric and he is a good tank/healer that without much modification could enter the rift without problem
or rexxar, he has a permanent summon that you can control and some abilities come from it, if it dies you cant use those abilities until it revives after a while
probius as a builder, he puts turrets and pilons that empowers his kit while his in the area
Taric us still a paladin.
Thanks to how his passive and Q works, if you have a target in Melee range, you have semi-infinite sustain.
Rell also fits, surprisingly. At least until her rework her Q has healing on it, and its pretty strong when used right. Also her teather means she gains much more power when fighting with others than alone.
Otherwise I would say that thanks to existence of moonstone renewer you could technically turn most tanks into paladins. I like to run Rell and Leona with moonstone.
Ba, recently I player Yorick with moonstone and had my ghouls heal my team
I'm really sad malzahar wasn't even mentioned in the video.
Voidlings used to be a huge part of his kit.
8:15 I have to disagree. Only things you really have to manage is last hitting with Q to get ghouls and making sure Maiden falls back and heals with you at fountain (all you have to do is back off yourself and she'll leave the fight too). The rest are skill shots, it's only inconsistent if you miss.
I call Yoricks's summon Granny. "Leave Granny alone you monsters!" is a common thing I yell.
Kayle is also a "Paladin" type of character. She's less supportive than Taric, but leans more toward being a hyper carry.
Azir is and always will be the best summoner. Because the sand soldiers are designed to be untargetable (which solves a over/underpowered problem; see ward killing mechanics) and they are controlled directly.
Syndra is also technically a summoner.
I think the main problem with summoners is that riot doesn't know how to make them fun. All they do is give you a button that summons a minion and you re-press that button to make it attack. Forexmaple DOTA has a lot of summoners some with multiple summons each with they own habilities and it works.
Oof ur words about paladins being a mix of damage and support for the team brought back memories of wotlk where ret pals basically had god mode enabled against all melee opponents. Glad I'd quit playing PvP in WoW long ago
Hey Vars, I wanted to ask if could do a why no one plays/why everyone plays about pyke. He is my favourite champ together with Akali. Furthermore I'm curious how you would rate him
I consider Lulu a puppet master, since Pix gets repositioned with her E and fires a Q whenever Lulu does. Now the question is whether Yuumi counts as a puppet master too.
Interesting how he used ff14 paladin as an example when in the latest expansion they made new summoner a mage class with the "summons" just being flashy explosions that gives u access to mage spells. (Its great and I love it, but not pet class anymore)