I always preferred that Joe Chill, or even just some random nameless guy, was responsible. Why? Well, Batman's vendetta against crime works a lot better when the crime itself is unremarkable. Just a couple of rich people taking a wrong turn in the wrong part of town and losing their lives to cruel, senseless violence. It makes Batman's war against crime a more eternal conflict, because he can never truly make up for what happened. Plus; you don't need the Joker to be the one who killed the Wayne's to make him Batman's greatest foe. Joker already has that title from all the other crazy stuff he's done; so why add an unnecessary complication on top?
In complete agreement with you, well-said! The Joker is already the most iconic supervillain of all time, that backstory is really the only beef I have with the Jack Nicholson version. Imagine, for instance, if in the first Spider-Man movie, The Green Goblin killed Uncle Ben instead of Dennis Carradine. Even if Peter allowed The Green Goblin to get away with a heist to begin with, would take a lot of the weight and responsibility Peter feels as a result if they were destined to become enemies from the beginning. It is rare that everyone significant for good and for ill in one's life is present from the very beginning; we often come across them randomly and develop the relationship from there.
@Ethan Grimsley He's a psychotic murderer who has single handedly filled entire graveyards, he stands against every ideal Batman has, what other reason does he NEED to hate him?
But Its A Rilly Good Story Idea Because Batman Must Allways Fight His Want To Kill The Joker And ... I Just Dont Like The Idea Of The Murder Just Being A Rendom Guy Thats Lazy Wrighting
@@LazerBolt-bf4vf he was never just a random guy, but he also is not the joker in most continuities. Joe chill was a worker for the mob usually, either sent to crime alley knowing the waynes were gonna be there and it was a set up for them specifically, or he just knew rich folk would leave the backway of the theater at some point and staked it out for some money for the mob or because the waynes interfered with the mob. Nowadays its basically accepted that one of 2 things led joe chill to take those shots. The first is that the court of owls pulled the strings to have yet another wayne killed, the second comes from the return of bruce wayne comic where both parents hired joe chill to fake kill the other for some ritual, but neither really wanted the other dead. But the one link is joe chill was always the pawn of a bigger game
@@HovektheArtist But It Seems Like It Was Joker If It Wasnot Him Then Why Has Batman Struglled To Kill Him From The Start ... Just To Be Clear I Mean Even Before He Killed Robin By Blowing Him Up ... ... And There Are 3 Jokers So This Is Just An Idea For A Future Comic Or Film Posably But If You Think It Makes More Scens For It To Be Joe Chill Than Just Make Joe Chill Become The Joker Sencs The Joker Has No True Identity And There Are 3 Of Him So This Would Be A Cool Consept And I Like The Idea Of It Being Joker Because Think About It Batman Must Not Kill The Joker And The Joker Ruened His Life When He Was A Kid ... See Its Kinda An Intresting Idea ... But All Over All In The End For Me It Depends On The Univers Wich Desifers What I Think If Its Something Like Gotham Joe Chill Did It If Its Something Like Batman V Superman Than The Joker Did It Not The Suiside Squad Joker That One Is Robin But For Me In The End For Me It Depends On The Univers And The Evedents
@@LazerBolt-bf4vf batman will not kill the joker for a simple reason. He believes even the joker can be cured and made sane because it means that he is not a lost cause as well. We kind of already have the 3 jokers thing kind of laid out with main joker being one, the comedian being a high probability as onedue to the button. But it is most likely the gold age joker silver age joker and current joker. But it is confirmed joe chill is not one of them due to the time where batman was the god of knowledge and every night for a week he went to joe chills cell and would interrogate him, show him he created batman by killing the waynes, erase his memory, then leave. During that time we found out he has been in jail since shortly after the murder and he is not getting out. Basically batman and the joker are 2 sides of the crazy coin, the joker gave in to the darkness and chaos where batman tries to keep hold and create order. Killing joker has always been the sign that he starts to embrace the chaos, as thats the only thing stopping batman from being joker, one swift snap and then the laughter ends. Batman has "killed" the joker before too and it always ends up with bruce going out of control, becoming the joker, or quitting, either from mind wipe or mental issues brought by the death. Making joe chill the joker is too convenient since theres the question of did batman make the joker, instead it would be the joker made batman who made the joker. As well as losing the mystique of not knowing who the joker is. Is he a failed comedian that saw his wife killed, is he low rank thug who joined red hood gang just to be knocked into ace chemicals, or is he the pale man, immortal devil of gothams laughter, or maybe he is the god tricks and chaos as wonder woman thinks
Lol. But its kinda like Poison Ivy is Pamela Isley, Harley Quinn is Harlene Quinzel etc. Batman names have to be symbolic. I'm almost sad Bruce isn't actually Batté Mann or something. The Joker could easily be Joe Kehr.
In the comics Batman asks Metron's Chair: "What is the Joker's real name?" And the Chair answers: "There are three". So Bruce thinks there must be three Jokers. But, what if he misheard the answer? There are three Thereare tree Gérard Tree The Joker's name is Gérard Tree!
Joker put it best in The Killing Joke "if I'm gonna have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice". Personally I like Joker having no origin given and the Wayne's being killed by a random street thug. Another great vid watchtower
"And made him...brit-ish?" Actually, he's Irish. References aside, Mark Hamill gave him the accent of a very popular Irish-American radio host (his name eludes me), who was a second-generation American, but had some of the Dublin accent his parents had, as was often typical with Irish Americans back in the early 40s as they tended to spend time with other Irishmen at the time rather than mingle much with other Americans. Also, try to run the Joker's accent with not only the Dublin accent, but also with the Highland Scottish accent and the West Country accent: You'll find some similarities. Perhaps his likely often-absent father was Scottish? Assuming that Napier has anything in common with the Joker's real name, it's a Scottish name. Perhaps the Joker's father is from Scotland or England, but his mother, who was presumably more present in his life, was Irish, and that's why his peculiar and varied accent leans more towards north Dublin.
Did you know, the Irish line was actually a re-written line? In the original version of the scene [from the Laughing Fish storyarc in the comics], the copyrighter exclaims "Jesus Christ!"; to which Joker replies by looking behind himself and shouting "WHERE?!". Obviously it was changed to "Great scott!"; "Actually, I'm Irish." to remove any possible offence towards the Christian/Catholic faith.
It's also a Polish name to but your probably right about his early up bringing like I bet his dad was like a drunk and his mom maybe a little less mean but mean nonetheless thus him becoming a Hitman in the mob
I never noticed any accent, but when you say that, he does have the irish 'lilt' Which now makes me wonder about the Blue Meanie leader. we know he was an inspiration in some capacity, right? And that was obviously a british actor, even if he and Max both sounded kind of vague.
Well, he was originally voiced by Tim Curry and Mark had to match lip flaps that were synced to Tim's performance when his first episode was redubbed, so it makes sense that he'd end up with a slight UK accent.
I mean, in the 89 film Batman doesn't recognize Jack Napier as the killer of his parents until he says "Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?"
Well that’s pretty justified because if your parents were murdered and 30 some odd years later you see the guy who killed your parents chances are he’s going to look extremely different so Bruce not realizing that the joker killed his parents until he says ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight makes sense because one it’s been 30 some odd years since that traumatic event so his memory obviously wasn’t as good as when it happened and two the dude does look a lot older and a lot less spry and young than he looked when he committed the murder so when the joker said the exact same thing he said to Bruce when he did the deed is when Bruce put two and two together so in all fairness it does make sense both logically and psychologically
The novelization of the film by Craig Shaw Gardner, however, is very vague as to HOW Bruce finally figures it out; it's even suggested that he had a nightmare shortly before the "discovery," and he just assumed the nightmare was an actual revelation. My personal theory is that Jack Napier DIDN'T do it, and that Bruce just has an extreme hatred of clowns. When the Joker's men appear at City Hall disguised as mimes, Bruce can be seen glaring at them, even though he has no reason to; he doesn't know who they are yet, and in fact he doesn't yet know that the Joker exists! And why do you think Batman was so brutal when dealing with the Red Triangle Circus Gang in the second movie? My guess is that the movie Bruce and his parents saw on the night of the murders had an evil clown as one of its characters, and Bruce mentally conflated that character with the shooter. It's a somewhat absurd theory, but I think it actually makes the Burton films darker, since it means Batman is committing hate crimes due to his pathological fear of clowns.
@@SeasideDetective2 The problem with your theory is that Joker admitted to killing Bruce's parents. He flat out said, "I was a kid when I killed your parents" so Bruce's nightmare was actually a repressed memory which was further addressed in Batman Forever.
Mark Hamill's Joker accent is Mid-Atlantic / Transatlantic. Like 1920's - 1950's Hollywood and old Film Noir movies. It's not British, But it was "Golden Age" Hollywood's fake attempt at sounding classy by using a lot of upper-middle class South-East England phonetics.
Thanks, came to say the same thing. It was called mid- or transatlantic specifically because it included elements from both American accents and British accents. Most importantly, it's historically a *learned* accent, not a regional one which arose organically: Joker could have spoken it naturally if he grew up in that American upper-class environment (which raises its own interesting questions on his background), or he could have intentionally adopted it once he became the Joker. Anyway, there's an extensive Wikipedia article on the accent under the name "Mid-Atlantic accent," and it specifically calls out the Joker as one contemporary example.
I like to think that the Joker chooses to use the accent, much in the same way actors did. As its been said before that the Joker is a fan of the black and white era of movies (comedies especially). So its entirely possible someone who has watched a lot of those old movies would be able to pull off the accent with ease, possibly making it less of a choice and more something familiar that his broken mind could latch onto, which I also like the idea of. I found out its Called a Mid-Atlantic accent from Mark Hamill himself saying as much in something I watched a few years ago. But I had no idea he is listed as an example.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop The problem with that theory, though, is that the Joker has mentioned that some of his favorite films are the silent-era comedies (Charlie Chaplin, etc.) in which no one talked at all. One thing I've REALLY been wondering these past few years is whether Harley Quinn is actually Jewish. They outright stated it in the 1994 BATMAN ADVENTURES HOLIDAY SPECIAL (which later was used as the inspiration for the BATMAN/SUPERMAN episode "Holiday Knights"), but then in SUICIDE SQUAD Margot Robbie spends a good portion of the film talking in what most people would describe as a "normal" American accent (or "General American," which is spoken in north-central Illinois and all states west of that, and by national television news reporters). Yes, there are California Jews, and there are even Jews in places like Iowa, but Harley is supposed to be from Gotham and Gotham is assumed to be "fantasy New York." I've got a feeling that Harley's voice post-Joker is just an affectation, a bit of the "Jewish gun moll" shtick that Mister J, being both a gangster and a comedian, would find appealing. Sort of like Gomez in THE ADDAMS FAMILY pretending to be Hispanic.
I think I like batman vs joker being more of a clashing of ideologies. And I feel like once batman vs joker becomes something so personal, the relationship and dynamic is ruined.
Cuz then it's no longer fueled by being complete opposite ideologies. It's just personal. It's also too convenient. The point of the Wayne murders is that it was a random thing. In a city so corrupt, the most elite citizens could just die like that for no reason at all. That's how bad Gotham is
I like the DCAU comic where Chill is just an old former thug haunted by his murder of the Waynes decades before. Perhaps he is also haunted by the fact that he tried to raise young Jack before he ran off and joined the mob and later became Joker.
@@TimThomason Now THAT is a comic i'd pay money to read. It'd be neat if he somehow lived all the way til 2042 and met his end encountering Terry. I mean it IS possible in the once and future thing episode of Justice League Static comments that they have pills now that extend the human lifespan.
In the original script for Mask of the Phantasm then titled "Masks", the photo of Napier with Valestra's gang was scanned into the Bat-Computer because half his face was obscured by shadow. The computer extrapolates the rest, bring up police fingerprints and "JACK NAPIER" appears on the screen making Bruce seethe: "Joker." All this leads to another flashback of Batman and Jack at the ACE Chemical Plant mixed with surreal Joker imagery. Later when Phantasm comes to Joker's hideout, he says: "Jack Napier, your angel of death awaits." Last but not least, during Andrea's flashback of coming home right as Napier is leaving, he speaks to her! We almost got to hear Hamill's pre-Joker voice. Alas, all this was changed. Seems some people on staff wanted to fully embrace a clear Joker origin culled from Batman '89 and others didn't. Personally, they should have stuck with the original script's treatment of the character.
I like the Todd Phillip’s Joker film that creates a scenario where the Joker indirectly leads to the Death of the Wayne’s. It adds to his whole agent of chaos deal.
What about the fact that the Batman Beyond tie in comic, you have Joe Chill's grand nephew operating as Vigilante, and he says that his uncle killed 2 people 50 years ago?
I personally think that it was big mistake in the history of DC in general to give Batman's parent's killer a name to begin with. They should have made his identity a mystery that would have haunted The Dark Knight for all time and fuel many fan theories to come. They should also always keep The Joker's real identity a mystery too as it makes him that more terrifiying
Facts. I'm also choosing to ignore any attempt at an established origin for the Joker, especially the 3 Joker nonsense that is being mentioned in the comics
I agree with this. Not everyone and everything needs a back story. Sometimes it's better just to leave it a mystery. If I remember correctly, Stephen King has a similar philosophy with his villains.
You COULD interpret that Batman1989 scene as Bruce not flashing back to the scene as it happened, but actually mentally projecting his current enemy into that scene. What if he does that with every enemy? "I played this city like a harp from hell"
The animated series still made Joker the creator of Batman. When Joker murdered Carl Beaumont, he forced Carl's daughter, Andrea to call off her engagement to Bruce thereby destroying any chance Bruce had to find happiness. This left him with only one choice: Dress up as a giant bat and fight criminals every night but this also caused Andrea to become the Phantasm.
as a point of interest, i figured out the implied true identity of the absolute original Joker from the comics: it's Alfred Stryker from the very first Batman story, "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate". this is the story that serves as the basis for all the various Joker origins where he was thrown into a vat of chemicals by Batman, and when they rebooted everything with the New 52, they restarted Batman's story with a remake of "Chemical Syndicate" and iirc explicitly showed Stryker climbing out of the chemicals as the Joker
I always felt it was just a random thug in the animated continuity. I feel that Batman never finds out who he is. This would explain the lack of a Joe Chill story like DC did pre crisis with the legend of the Batman story. There was however a great adaptation of said story in Brave and the Bold.
I like to think Bruce has mentally blocked the identity of his parents' killer due to the shock. Perhaps meeting said killer will bring back his trauma if he acknowledges his face. The Batman acts as his 2nd identity protecting Bruce Wayne from the fear of meeting the killer, thus as Batman who doesn't know the identity can continue his services as a superhero.
There was an episode of Batman Beyond where Terry unmasks himself in front of a scared child he's trying to rescue. A group of villains then find out about it and try to use a machine to see the kids thoughts and discover Terry's identity, but the image they pull up is the face of an action figure. That kid saw Terry's face like, a day ago and already he forgot and just pictured him in his head as a symbol of heroism that gave him comfort because that's what Terry was to him.
Oh and can you please go into those "Batman Adventures" comics please? I really want to know about when they happened, if they're canon or not and whatnot. There's so many of them too!
The Joker's real name was established two seasons before Mask of the Phantasm premiered. One is expected to know this when they see him in the flashbacks and photo. Jack Napier's voice would probably sound like Mark Hamill's normal speaking tone if not a bit ominous. The only reason "Beware the Creeper" retconned his name as just an alias is because the revamped 4th season wanted to remove some of the Burton elements in favor of traditions from the comics. Here's a theory: Jack started using aliases, as criminals often do, and let the idea that even his real name is one of them. A joke on everyone!
I just have one question and it's been bugging me for weeks! If Bruce Wayne's dad was a doctor then who was running Wayne industries? Was he doing both? Was it his wife? Was it somebody else but by some weird writers logic because it belong to the Wayne family Bruce just got to be the CEO?
DyslexicGamer From what I've read, his father owned the company, inherited from his father and his father before him, and so on. But he left the running of day-to-day operations in the hands of someone who he trusted, so he could pursue his medical career. His wife was rich in her own right philanthropist.
As far as I know Bruce has photographic memory. Had it been Jack Napier he would've most probably recognised him pre-joker in mask of the phantasm. Also, if someone you've seen just a couple of times gets chark white skin, green hair and a big permanent smile it would be hard to recognize them, even with photographic memory
Definitely team Joe Chill I like how the Burton movie handled it by making it Joker, but it was never about who killed Thomas and Martha, it's about what killed them: crime There is no good reason for their murder, so Bruce promises to stop the same thing that took his parents away from him
We've seen Joker wear disguises. Convincing ones, even. It's possible the Waynes were a mob hit disguised as a mugging, with pre-Joker disguised as Joe Chill. As far as Alfred, well… have we ever seen him and Joker in the same room at the same time?
@@RadinV1 actually if you look at joker's wiki on the animated series joker's birth year is 1948 and Batman's in 1963 thus they're of age in the 1990s which the year the series takes place despite having a noir vibe from the 40s
@@mikeyholland150 since batman beyond return of the jokers canonicity(is that a word?) Is higher than the wiki page then he must be amongst the same age as Bruce
@@RadinV1 well he did make a clone chip of himself and plant in Tim Drake's neck figuring it for a mole but if he did say age regularly he'd actually be 15 years older than Batman and thus around the time of Batman beyond might be around 91
I've always felt it was better that the one who killed Thomas and Martha Wayne was Joe Chill or, much more preferably, an unknown assailant. Joker is too on the nose and perfectly staged. Batman, in my opinion, has 2 great motivators: Avenging the death of his parents, and making sure no one experiences the trauma he did. While there is a very good story to tell when the killer has a known identity, it does lessen the overarching scenario of batman approaching every criminal as if they could be the one that did it. That angst and brutal screen that Bruce sees the world in helps keep him interesting to me and drives the character forward just as much as wanting to make the world a better place.
Team Joe Chill; it was a convoluted way of having Batman and the Joker be connected in Batman 1989, it was convoluted when it was revealed he killed Carl Beaumont (especially since we'd never really seen pre-Ace Chemical Joker until Mask of the Phantasm), and it feels convoluted here, especially when it depends entirely upon the World's Greatest Detective not recognizing him and the Joker never bringing it up (especially in Return of the Joker, where he finds out Bruce's identity) for the entirety of their relationship.
Mark Hamill's performance as the joker is excellent for an animated series. But the greatest incarnation of the classic villain overall is none other than Heath Ledger's joker because that incarnation of the character is more imaginative and not confined to the limitations of television animation.
"Actually I'm Irish" says the Joker as he busts through the door. Also, what if Sal Valestra set up the Joker at Ace chemicals like in the 89 movie? Just food for thought.
Joker's real name is Josephi Krakawski. He's of Russian decent, but adopted Italian-American attributes from being raised in a predominate Italian American suburb. His parents were very poor and were often ostracized by the people around them, and one day little Joe has had enough of it and decides to just run away. He gets lost in an ally and some thugs find him and ask him if he wants to make a little money by going with them to a jewelry heist where he would sneak into the building using his small size to crawl in through an air vent and let them in from the inside. The heist is a success, the thugs shoot a few cops, Joe himself smacks a guard, and they get out of there with diamonds, full of adrenaline and howling in laughter. Joe gets paid more money in that one night than he has ever seen in his life, and the thugs offer him a place in the gang where he could pull more heists like the one he just did. Joe gladly accepts, never once remembering his parents, and decides he would be in charge of his destiny from that point onward.
I really like this theory but I just like to think he didn't kill the Wayne's. I really like his origins in the animated series. I also like to think the joker and batman are around the same age in the animated series
I'm one of those #KeepJoker'sOriginASecret kind of guys. (Along with #KeepEpilogueASecret, of course.) And, while I'd like to separate Batman and Joker and have their relationship be linear (Batman 'birthed' Joker when he tossed him into chemicals without Jack killing Bruce's parents ), I got genuine chills just imaging how that scrapped episode would've been like. I played it in my head a few times already as I type this comment but, like, wow. Also, I'm neither Team Joe Chill or Team Joe Kurh(?). I'm Team Howard Utley!
I also agree we should never know the Joker’s real name or much about him pre-Joker. Just like we should never see Master Chief’s face (even though I know they’ll screw up and show it to us someday anyway).
If joker killed Batman’s parents, then joker made Batman, say he recognized him as his parents killer then pushed him into the chemicals on purpose, he would feel guilty and would probably give him a reason to keep joker alive. Damn near connecting them.
I really like this theory with all the stuff about the yin and yang having them both created their own nemesises and each other with joker creating Batman and Batman creating the joker it would have just been perfect
You need to consider that BTAS was mostly based on Tim Burton’s 89’ film. Where as anything else afterwards such as New Adventures and Justice League strayed away from the 89’ film.
For what it's worth, most people have poor long-term memory for faces, and this is especially true for children, particularly in traumatic situations. An example: when I was five years old, I was the victim of a crime that I won't name for algorithmic reasons. The perpetrator was an adult man, a stranger. He came within arm's length of me, and I stared into his face in fear and confusion for most of the time involved. I have a very clear memory of his face, so clear I could draw it today. Except it's not a human face. In my memory, it looks more like a Halloween mask, with leathery skin, a hooked nose, and sunken eyes. I know the guy didn’t have a monster face irl because no one noticed him going in or out of the very public place where he committed the crime (a place, as it turned out, where he hung out quite a bit). He didn’t stand out in a crowd, so he probably just had a normal face; the only details of my memory that I think are accurate are his skin/eye color and the intensity of his stare, which he might not have directed at adults. I can only assume Bruce was more traumatized by his parents' deaths than I was by my experience, as I've never felt the need to do more than beat up a punching bag about it. So it follows that his memory might not be even close to accurate. That's the sort of detail that would drive the world's greatest detective a little batty...
Joe chill doesn't even look like mask of Phantasm Jack Napier though. I would however want you to theorize how brainiac fused to darkseid reproduced considering Dwayne McDuffie said darkseid and him and lex were fused to source wall in jlu finale
As we discuss in the video, it’s possible Bruce could remember the face of the killer incorrectly. It’s a loose theory but still a fun one. As for Brainiac, he in fact does not fuse with Darkseid. This is never stated in the show and disputed by Bruce Timm. We are doing a Brainiac timeline sort of video semi-soon.
@@dcauwatchtower but you have acknowledged Bruce timm goes back and forth with batman beyond year and lex told darkseid you destroyed brainiac I'll make you pay. Second I remember seeing a joker dcau Arkham profile which says real name "Jack Napier?"
And if darkseid didn't fuse with brainiac why did luthor said he couldn't hear brainiac in his head and the fact that darkseid had armor and weapons that resembled brainiac
I think the worst part about this is, if the Joker were the Killer, he'd either not care or laugh it off and say " What a hilarious joke!"... Just to piss off Bruce! Que the laugh Jack Napier! 13:18
I like Joe Chill. As in 1930s, 1940s Joe Chill. The one who got killed by a bunch of thugs because he told everyone he’s the reason Batman exists because he killed Batman’s parents.
I think that the idea of Joker killing Bruce’s parents is bad because the idea of a random thug killing Bruce’s parents fuels Joker’s point about “one bad day”. Bruce and the Joker weren’t fated to be nemeses. Each of them had one bad day that shaped them into who they are.
On the subject of Bruce's memories, whenever people remember a thing the memory becomes a little bit more distorted. Batman relives this memory so many times it's probably rather different in his head than it was in the alley a few decades ago.
love what you guys do, keep up the amazing work. I always thought that the batman and joker making each other thing felt too close nit. Batman is a guy who had a really bad day (parent's killed by Joe chill) and it sent him on the path that made him Batman. The joker is a guy who had a bad day (wife and unborn baby die, job goes sideways, ends up in a vat) and it sends him on the path that makes him the joker. I know other ppl have said it, but they are two different parts of a coin, two different ideologies that always clash. One making the other makes it tie up too nicely. And the script for the gun episode, maybe I missed it, but didn't Mr Rigel say that the joker bought the gun but he didnt specify that the Joker killed the Waynes. I know that's what the episode would have alluded to, but nothing concrete. And then, Mr Tim (the heavenly father, blessed be his name) said that it wouldnt line up. That being said, he also said he didn't want brainiac being part fo soop's origin and that was a really cool call so ya.... k, batman fanboy rant over hahaha
Eh, I was never a fan of connecting Joker to the Wayne Murders like that. Joker is one of the only characters who can get away with being a total mystery in my opinion...or, at least, what appears to be a total mystery. I personally think it would be really cool if the backstories could all be pieced together into some form of cohesive background, instead of mindless lies; Joker's too smart to not realise that his inconstant history would come back to bite him eventually, so it would make sense for him to keep a record of what he's saying - whether or not it's his actual history, a complete fabrication he designed just to f*ck with Batman or somewhere between the two extremes is up to the writer I guess.
Even though it's never explicitly said, the reason I think batman never realized who joker was despite meeting him twice before he became joker is because Batman suffers from OCD, which makes it extremely hard to put obvious things together very often as ones brain tends to operate very specifically. It's why Riddler can't simply not leave clues, he's compelled to. It's also why riddler could never figure out Batman's identity, despite literally being the "second" smartest person in Gotham and having every clue under the sun to go "BATMAN IS BRUCE WAYNE" but when his OCD is cured via the lazeras pit it finally clicks because he's no longer under the effects of those specific wires in his brain.
I Hate the name Jack Napier!, in spanish Napier (Naipe) sounds too much like "playing card". And yes, the joker is a playing card, not funny. I think all the origin stories of the Joker are true, we just haven't put them all together.
So you also must hate the name Edward Nigma for the Riddler! Napier in spanish sounding much like "playing card" is perfectly fateful for the Joker, the name is also a homage in memorial to Alan Napier, Adam West Batman's Alfred, who had died in 1988. And the name Jack links it to Jack Torrance in The Shining, which was the inspiration for casting Jack Nicholson for Joker in the first place, and it also breaths some reality to it as Jack is also obviously Jack Nicholson's real name.
11:04 This has actually been turned into a comic. Not 100% on the title as it's been a long time since I've read it. From what I remember Alfred dons the red lipstick and chalked face as the joker because that's when he sees Bruce most alive... or something along those lines. In the same issue I think it starts with the funeral of batman but again it was a long time ago
I've never liked the idea that the Joker killed the Waynes. Largely because I prefer the Wayne murders being a random act of crime, no sense, no reason, no ironic twist of fate. Sometimes things just... happen.
The one thing I don't buy, even if they tried to make it work in that tie-in comic, is that Bruce would not have a clear recollection of the killer's face. Going as far back as the golden age in 1948's Batman #47, it was an explicit plot point that Bruce stared directly at Joe Chill's face, memorizing every feature, to the point that Chill was freaked out and said, "Stop lookin' at me like that!" Years later when Batman sees a photo of an older Chill while working a smuggling case, he immediately recognizes him. Granted, there have been so many versions of the origin over the years, but I have always felt that that detail from the original telling makes sense to carry over, that in that moment where his life changed, Bruce memorized the face of the first murderer that shattered his world.
For those watching this after October 2019: We saw it in the Joker movie. The Joker did not kill Bruce's parents, but was responsible for their deaths as he caused the chaos leading to it. I do like this rendition as it further explains why Bruce became a symbol of order as the Batman; he wanted to fight the chaos that lead to his parents' demise.
As a kid I always thought the Joker killed Bruce’s parents. It’s what my parents taught me and it’s what the movies said. It wasn’t until much, much later I found out it was some guy called Joe Chill and that just didn’t have the same gravitas.
I honestly prefer the Joker being an incarnation/reborn version of Alfred Stryker, the very first Batman villain, who presumably died falling into a vat of chemicals.
We know that there are three jokers. What if one of them really killed Bruce's parents and killed by batman in the killing joke, while the other jokers are alive
Thanks for this video! I really wasn't expecting a something like this, but I did enjoy it. Personally, I prefer for the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents to be Joe Chill rather than the Joker. Bruce's crusade against should be against crime in general rather than towards a specific person. Also, it's too convenient for me that the man who killed Bruce Wayne's parents also ends up being the Joker. This element is something that should have stayed exclusively to the Tim Burton movies. Speaking of those movies, there is something that needs to be said about them. I'm going to flat out admit that they are terrible excuses for Batman movies. Batman murders people with a smile on his face!? The Joker being given a definitive name, dancing to Prince music, and wanting to get in bed with Vicki Vale!? Catwoman having a split personality as well as adding supernatural elements to her character!? The Penguin being raised by actual penguins in a sewer, being more similar to Killer Croc than the character he is supposed to be based on in the comics, using actual rocket strapped penguins to take over Gotham, the movie wanting us to both sympathize with him and yet still cheer for his defeat!? The movies spend more time focusing on the villains than the title character. What the heck, Tim Burton!? You can't just twist the characters into whatever you want. Some deviation is acceptable, but when you go against the core of these characters, or make some absolutely bizarre changes for no rhyme or reason; it doesn't work. You need to have read more than just The Killing Joke. People say Joel Schumacher ruined Batman. No, Tim Burton did. The reason the first two movies got praise was due to him getting the Adam West image out of the public consciousness. I am so thankful I was able to see proper adaptations of Batman through the DCAU and the Nolanverse movies before watching those movies to see what they were like.
Yep! It's a common misconception, because of the similarities to his Killing Joke comedian origin. All that's happening in "Make 'Em Laugh" is that The Joker enters a comedy contest 2 years in a row, both times in disguise.
No but in the DCAU Joker is still partially responsible for Bruce becoming Batman because as shown in Mask of the Phantasm when Bruce was training to become Batman he met Andrea Beaumont and fell in love with her and he was going to give up his crusade to be with her to the point where he goes to Thomas and Martha's grave to ask them if it's OK to break his vow to avenge them because he's happy with Andrea. But thanks to Andrea's dad Carl embezzling money from the Valestra mob and having to go abroad to escape them until Arthur Reeves told Valestra where they were when Carl wouldn't fund his first election campaign and they sent their hitman who would later become The Joker to kill Carl. After that Bruce threw himself into being Batman with his chance at happiness lost.
I prefer the idea that the killer of Batman’s parents has no face. Joe Chill is such an every-man Name. He symbolises Street crime perfectly. A mugging in an alley. It wasn’t The Joker who took Batman’s parents... it was crime that took Batman’s parents.
What if Jim gordan shot the waynes being a dirty cop and does not arrest batman knowing he is bruce and helping him to try to say sorry for the mistake he made so long ago like if agree
IT WAS PLASTIC MAN, I'LL BE A SUNOVABITCH
Is that why we never see him in JLU?
BACHUR no it was condiment king
It was Jim Gordon
Its joker who killed Batman's parents
Terrywasn't born yet
What I love about that Joe Chill comic is the fact that he’s ironically scared of Bruce Wayne and not Batman
I always preferred that Joe Chill, or even just some random nameless guy, was responsible. Why? Well, Batman's vendetta against crime works a lot better when the crime itself is unremarkable. Just a couple of rich people taking a wrong turn in the wrong part of town and losing their lives to cruel, senseless violence. It makes Batman's war against crime a more eternal conflict, because he can never truly make up for what happened.
Plus; you don't need the Joker to be the one who killed the Wayne's to make him Batman's greatest foe. Joker already has that title from all the other crazy stuff he's done; so why add an unnecessary complication on top?
In complete agreement with you, well-said! The Joker is already the most iconic supervillain of all time, that backstory is really the only beef I have with the Jack Nicholson version.
Imagine, for instance, if in the first Spider-Man movie, The Green Goblin killed Uncle Ben instead of Dennis Carradine. Even if Peter allowed The Green Goblin to get away with a heist to begin with, would take a lot of the weight and responsibility Peter feels as a result if they were destined to become enemies from the beginning. It is rare that everyone significant for good and for ill in one's life is present from the very beginning; we often come across them randomly and develop the relationship from there.
@Ethan Grimsley He's a psychotic murderer who has single handedly filled entire graveyards, he stands against every ideal Batman has, what other reason does he NEED to hate him?
Becuase Haveing A Random Guy The Murder Is Lazy Wrighting
@@LazerBolt-bf4vf You're fucking stupid, bud.
@@mg9138 pretty he sure he wouldn't know what lazy writing is, even if it hit him upside the head.
I never liked the idea of Joker being the one who killed Bruce's parents. Seems too convenient.
Bruh joker isnt joker at that point
But Its A Rilly Good Story Idea Because Batman Must Allways Fight His Want To Kill The Joker And ... I Just Dont Like The Idea Of The Murder Just Being A Rendom Guy Thats Lazy Wrighting
@@LazerBolt-bf4vf he was never just a random guy, but he also is not the joker in most continuities. Joe chill was a worker for the mob usually, either sent to crime alley knowing the waynes were gonna be there and it was a set up for them specifically, or he just knew rich folk would leave the backway of the theater at some point and staked it out for some money for the mob or because the waynes interfered with the mob. Nowadays its basically accepted that one of 2 things led joe chill to take those shots. The first is that the court of owls pulled the strings to have yet another wayne killed, the second comes from the return of bruce wayne comic where both parents hired joe chill to fake kill the other for some ritual, but neither really wanted the other dead. But the one link is joe chill was always the pawn of a bigger game
@@HovektheArtist But It Seems Like It Was Joker If It Wasnot Him Then Why Has Batman Struglled To Kill Him From The Start ... Just To Be Clear I Mean Even Before He Killed Robin By Blowing Him Up ... ... And There Are 3 Jokers So This Is Just An Idea For A Future Comic Or Film Posably But If You Think It Makes More Scens For It To Be Joe Chill Than Just Make Joe Chill Become The Joker Sencs The Joker Has No True Identity And There Are 3 Of Him So This Would Be A Cool Consept And I Like The Idea Of It Being Joker Because Think About It Batman Must Not Kill The Joker And The Joker Ruened His Life When He Was A Kid ... See Its Kinda An Intresting Idea ... But All Over All In The End For Me It Depends On The Univers Wich Desifers What I Think If Its Something Like Gotham Joe Chill Did It If Its Something Like Batman V Superman Than The Joker Did It Not The Suiside Squad Joker That One Is Robin But For Me In The End For Me It Depends On The Univers And The Evedents
@@LazerBolt-bf4vf batman will not kill the joker for a simple reason. He believes even the joker can be cured and made sane because it means that he is not a lost cause as well. We kind of already have the 3 jokers thing kind of laid out with main joker being one, the comedian being a high probability as onedue to the button. But it is most likely the gold age joker silver age joker and current joker. But it is confirmed joe chill is not one of them due to the time where batman was the god of knowledge and every night for a week he went to joe chills cell and would interrogate him, show him he created batman by killing the waynes, erase his memory, then leave. During that time we found out he has been in jail since shortly after the murder and he is not getting out.
Basically batman and the joker are 2 sides of the crazy coin, the joker gave in to the darkness and chaos where batman tries to keep hold and create order. Killing joker has always been the sign that he starts to embrace the chaos, as thats the only thing stopping batman from being joker, one swift snap and then the laughter ends. Batman has "killed" the joker before too and it always ends up with bruce going out of control, becoming the joker, or quitting, either from mind wipe or mental issues brought by the death.
Making joe chill the joker is too convenient since theres the question of did batman make the joker, instead it would be the joker made batman who made the joker. As well as losing the mystique of not knowing who the joker is. Is he a failed comedian that saw his wife killed, is he low rank thug who joined red hood gang just to be knocked into ace chemicals, or is he the pale man, immortal devil of gothams laughter, or maybe he is the god tricks and chaos as wonder woman thinks
Uh... No, that would be Joe Chill. I know everything about Batman.
But In The Animated Universe Is The Joker The Guy Who Murdered Thomas And Martha Wayne Not In Comics But In The Animated Universe
dmax 321 boom wat
Checks out
I know, you what to know why, because I'm Batman
no you dont nooooooob i just bad worded at you 😈😈😈
Joker's real name is...
Joe Kehr.
Lol. But its kinda like Poison Ivy is Pamela Isley, Harley Quinn is Harlene Quinzel etc. Batman names have to be symbolic. I'm almost sad Bruce isn't actually Batté Mann or something. The Joker could easily be Joe Kehr.
In the comics Batman asks Metron's Chair: "What is the Joker's real name?"
And the Chair answers: "There are three". So Bruce thinks there must be three Jokers. But, what if he misheard the answer?
There are three
Thereare tree
Gérard Tree
The Joker's name is Gérard Tree!
Wasn't "Joe Kerr" used in one ep as an alias?
Also, look up the word "jackanapes".
It-s pronounced as Joe Kurr*
Nerd Aura Joseph Kerr.
Joker put it best in The Killing Joke "if I'm gonna have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice". Personally I like Joker having no origin given and the Wayne's being killed by a random street thug. Another great vid watchtower
"And made him...brit-ish?"
Actually, he's Irish.
References aside, Mark Hamill gave him the accent of a very popular Irish-American radio host (his name eludes me), who was a second-generation American, but had some of the Dublin accent his parents had, as was often typical with Irish Americans back in the early 40s as they tended to spend time with other Irishmen at the time rather than mingle much with other Americans. Also, try to run the Joker's accent with not only the Dublin accent, but also with the Highland Scottish accent and the West Country accent: You'll find some similarities. Perhaps his likely often-absent father was Scottish? Assuming that Napier has anything in common with the Joker's real name, it's a Scottish name. Perhaps the Joker's father is from Scotland or England, but his mother, who was presumably more present in his life, was Irish, and that's why his peculiar and varied accent leans more towards north Dublin.
Did you know, the Irish line was actually a re-written line?
In the original version of the scene [from the Laughing Fish storyarc in the comics], the copyrighter exclaims "Jesus Christ!"; to which Joker replies by looking behind himself and shouting "WHERE?!". Obviously it was changed to "Great scott!"; "Actually, I'm Irish." to remove any possible offence towards the Christian/Catholic faith.
It's also a Polish name to but your probably right about his early up bringing like I bet his dad was like a drunk and his mom maybe a little less mean but mean nonetheless thus him becoming a Hitman in the mob
I never noticed any accent, but when you say that, he does have the irish 'lilt'
Which now makes me wonder about the Blue Meanie leader. we know he was an inspiration in some capacity, right? And that was obviously a british actor, even if he and Max both sounded kind of vague.
Well, he was originally voiced by Tim Curry and Mark had to match lip flaps that were synced to Tim's performance when his first episode was redubbed, so it makes sense that he'd end up with a slight UK accent.
Damn. The Joker's a Scotsman. I'm mind-blown. Scot-American, but still a Scotsman. Damn.
I mean, in the 89 film Batman doesn't recognize Jack Napier as the killer of his parents until he says "Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?"
in fairness, he had put on a lot of weight in the ensuing decades. though they did cast a pretty convincing 'young jack nicholson'
Well that’s pretty justified because if your parents were murdered and 30 some odd years later you see the guy who killed your parents chances are he’s going to look extremely different so Bruce not realizing that the joker killed his parents until he says ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight makes sense because one it’s been 30 some odd years since that traumatic event so his memory obviously wasn’t as good as when it happened and two the dude does look a lot older and a lot less spry and young than he looked when he committed the murder so when the joker said the exact same thing he said to Bruce when he did the deed is when Bruce put two and two together so in all fairness it does make sense both logically and psychologically
@@KairuHakubi lol
The novelization of the film by Craig Shaw Gardner, however, is very vague as to HOW Bruce finally figures it out; it's even suggested that he had a nightmare shortly before the "discovery," and he just assumed the nightmare was an actual revelation. My personal theory is that Jack Napier DIDN'T do it, and that Bruce just has an extreme hatred of clowns. When the Joker's men appear at City Hall disguised as mimes, Bruce can be seen glaring at them, even though he has no reason to; he doesn't know who they are yet, and in fact he doesn't yet know that the Joker exists! And why do you think Batman was so brutal when dealing with the Red Triangle Circus Gang in the second movie? My guess is that the movie Bruce and his parents saw on the night of the murders had an evil clown as one of its characters, and Bruce mentally conflated that character with the shooter. It's a somewhat absurd theory, but I think it actually makes the Burton films darker, since it means Batman is committing hate crimes due to his pathological fear of clowns.
@@SeasideDetective2
The problem with your theory is that Joker admitted to killing Bruce's parents. He flat out said, "I was a kid when I killed your parents" so Bruce's nightmare was actually a repressed memory which was further addressed in Batman Forever.
Mark Hamill's Joker accent is Mid-Atlantic / Transatlantic. Like 1920's - 1950's Hollywood and old Film Noir movies. It's not British, But it was "Golden Age" Hollywood's fake attempt at sounding classy by using a lot of upper-middle class South-East England phonetics.
Thanks, came to say the same thing. It was called mid- or transatlantic specifically because it included elements from both American accents and British accents. Most importantly, it's historically a *learned* accent, not a regional one which arose organically: Joker could have spoken it naturally if he grew up in that American upper-class environment (which raises its own interesting questions on his background), or he could have intentionally adopted it once he became the Joker.
Anyway, there's an extensive Wikipedia article on the accent under the name "Mid-Atlantic accent," and it specifically calls out the Joker as one contemporary example.
I like to think that the Joker chooses to use the accent, much in the same way actors did. As its been said before that the Joker is a fan of the black and white era of movies (comedies especially). So its entirely possible someone who has watched a lot of those old movies would be able to pull off the accent with ease, possibly making it less of a choice and more something familiar that his broken mind could latch onto, which I also like the idea of.
I found out its Called a Mid-Atlantic accent from Mark Hamill himself saying as much in something I watched a few years ago. But I had no idea he is listed as an example.
I thought Aquaman was the one with a Mid-Atlantic accent.
Thank you I don't get how he sounds British
@@RainMakeR_Workshop The problem with that theory, though, is that the Joker has mentioned that some of his favorite films are the silent-era comedies (Charlie Chaplin, etc.) in which no one talked at all.
One thing I've REALLY been wondering these past few years is whether Harley Quinn is actually Jewish. They outright stated it in the 1994 BATMAN ADVENTURES HOLIDAY SPECIAL (which later was used as the inspiration for the BATMAN/SUPERMAN episode "Holiday Knights"), but then in SUICIDE SQUAD Margot Robbie spends a good portion of the film talking in what most people would describe as a "normal" American accent (or "General American," which is spoken in north-central Illinois and all states west of that, and by national television news reporters). Yes, there are California Jews, and there are even Jews in places like Iowa, but Harley is supposed to be from Gotham and Gotham is assumed to be "fantasy New York." I've got a feeling that Harley's voice post-Joker is just an affectation, a bit of the "Jewish gun moll" shtick that Mister J, being both a gangster and a comedian, would find appealing. Sort of like Gomez in THE ADDAMS FAMILY pretending to be Hispanic.
I think I like batman vs joker being more of a clashing of ideologies. And I feel like once batman vs joker becomes something so personal, the relationship and dynamic is ruined.
MovieBlocks Productions A.K. How come?
Cuz then it's no longer fueled by being complete opposite ideologies. It's just personal. It's also too convenient. The point of the Wayne murders is that it was a random thing. In a city so corrupt, the most elite citizens could just die like that for no reason at all. That's how bad Gotham is
Evan Railman and even Bruce won't admit it, it's not worth fixing.
Agreed their rivalry should be by chance
Captain Jakemerica why do all these villains have to have personal connection to the heroes?
Joe Chill was Jack Napier's uncle who raised him after the mysterious death of Jack's parents. Jack goes on to follow his Uncle into a life of crime.
I like the DCAU comic where Chill is just an old former thug haunted by his murder of the Waynes decades before. Perhaps he is also haunted by the fact that he tried to raise young Jack before he ran off and joined the mob and later became Joker.
@@TimThomason Now THAT is a comic i'd pay money to read. It'd be neat if he somehow lived all the way til 2042 and met his end encountering Terry. I mean it IS possible in the once and future thing episode of Justice League Static comments that they have pills now that extend the human lifespan.
In the original script for Mask of the Phantasm then titled "Masks", the photo of Napier with Valestra's gang was scanned into the Bat-Computer because half his face was obscured by shadow. The computer extrapolates the rest, bring up police fingerprints and "JACK NAPIER" appears on the screen making Bruce seethe: "Joker." All this leads to another flashback of Batman and Jack at the ACE Chemical Plant mixed with surreal Joker imagery. Later when Phantasm comes to Joker's hideout, he says: "Jack Napier, your angel of death awaits." Last but not least, during Andrea's flashback of coming home right as Napier is leaving, he speaks to her! We almost got to hear Hamill's pre-Joker voice. Alas, all this was changed. Seems some people on staff wanted to fully embrace a clear Joker origin culled from Batman '89 and others didn't. Personally, they should have stuck with the original script's treatment of the character.
I like the Todd Phillip’s Joker film that creates a scenario where the Joker indirectly leads to the Death of the Wayne’s. It adds to his whole agent of chaos deal.
What about the fact that the Batman Beyond tie in comic, you have Joe Chill's grand nephew operating as Vigilante, and he says that his uncle killed 2 people 50 years ago?
I personally think that it was big mistake in the history of DC in general to give Batman's parent's killer a name to begin with. They should have made his identity a mystery that would have haunted The Dark Knight for all time and fuel many fan theories to come. They should also always keep The Joker's real identity a mystery too as it makes him that more terrifiying
Amen
Agreed. The killer of the Waynes is suppose to be the driving force of Batman. Attaching any name to the killer ruins the mystique.
Facts. I'm also choosing to ignore any attempt at an established origin for the Joker, especially the 3 Joker nonsense that is being mentioned in the comics
I agree with this. Not everyone and everything needs a back story. Sometimes it's better just to leave it a mystery. If I remember correctly, Stephen King has a similar philosophy with his villains.
I just wish they came up with a better name than "Joe Chill".
Alfred killed the Wayne’s Confirmed
Justice Productions wow imagine a storyline with Alfred be the villain.! The man who killed Wayne’s!
He actually did on earth 3
There also one where he is the joker
Vasilis Koutsokostas well there was a fan story that Alfred is the Joker and the rest of the villains are actors.
It was Captain Clown.
You COULD interpret that Batman1989 scene as Bruce not flashing back to the scene as it happened, but actually mentally projecting his current enemy into that scene. What if he does that with every enemy? "I played this city like a harp from hell"
The animated series still made Joker the creator of Batman. When Joker murdered Carl Beaumont, he forced Carl's daughter, Andrea to call off her engagement to Bruce thereby destroying any chance Bruce had to find happiness. This left him with only one choice: Dress up as a giant bat and fight criminals every night but this also caused Andrea to become the Phantasm.
Joker doesn't have a British accent it's supposed to be a mid Atlantic accent according to Mark Hamill
as a point of interest, i figured out the implied true identity of the absolute original Joker from the comics: it's Alfred Stryker from the very first Batman story, "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate". this is the story that serves as the basis for all the various Joker origins where he was thrown into a vat of chemicals by Batman, and when they rebooted everything with the New 52, they restarted Batman's story with a remake of "Chemical Syndicate" and iirc explicitly showed Stryker climbing out of the chemicals as the Joker
I've always thought that was a neat touch in the new 52 version
I always felt it was just a random thug in the animated continuity. I feel that Batman never finds out who he is. This would explain the lack of a Joe Chill story like DC did pre crisis with the legend of the Batman story. There was however a great adaptation of said story in Brave and the Bold.
Telltale Batman has a great interpretation of the story as well
I wonder if the name the Valestra inspired the name Valeska for Jerome/Jeremiah in Gotham?
It did inspire it.
I like to think Bruce has mentally blocked the identity of his parents' killer due to the shock. Perhaps meeting said killer will bring back his trauma if he acknowledges his face. The Batman acts as his 2nd identity protecting Bruce Wayne from the fear of meeting the killer, thus as Batman who doesn't know the identity can continue his services as a superhero.
There was an episode of Batman Beyond where Terry unmasks himself in front of a scared child he's trying to rescue. A group of villains then find out about it and try to use a machine to see the kids thoughts and discover Terry's identity, but the image they pull up is the face of an action figure. That kid saw Terry's face like, a day ago and already he forgot and just pictured him in his head as a symbol of heroism that gave him comfort because that's what Terry was to him.
If that's the case, it helps that he doesn't remember the face, lest he be tempted to *KILL* the man who has it.
Can't believe Soldier Sam killed Bruce's parents!
Oh and can you please go into those "Batman Adventures" comics please? I really want to know about when they happened, if they're canon or not and whatnot. There's so many of them too!
Bruce timm said that they aren't canon. However they are cool.
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 good argument. However i dont think that the producers of the dcau(like bruce w. Timm) do think about the comics
The Joker's real name was established two seasons before Mask of the Phantasm premiered. One is expected to know this when they see him in the flashbacks and photo. Jack Napier's voice would probably sound like Mark Hamill's normal speaking tone if not a bit ominous. The only reason "Beware the Creeper" retconned his name as just an alias is because the revamped 4th season wanted to remove some of the Burton elements in favor of traditions from the comics. Here's a theory: Jack started using aliases, as criminals often do, and let the idea that even his real name is one of them. A joke on everyone!
"When you were in Kindergarten, the 5th graders looks like mid-30s"
How true
I just have one question and it's been bugging me for weeks!
If Bruce Wayne's dad was a doctor then who was running Wayne industries? Was he doing both? Was it his wife? Was it somebody else but by some weird writers logic because it belong to the Wayne family Bruce just got to be the CEO?
DyslexicGamer From what I've read, his father owned the company, inherited from his father and his father before him, and so on.
But he left the running of day-to-day operations in the hands of someone who he trusted, so he could pursue his medical career.
His wife was rich in her own right philanthropist.
I guess that makes sense for comic writers who really don't understand how business works. But it is fiction I suppose
DyslexicGamer That's about it.
DyslexicGamer Do you know who Lucius Fox is?
As far as I know Bruce has photographic memory. Had it been Jack Napier he would've most probably recognised him pre-joker in mask of the phantasm. Also, if someone you've seen just a couple of times gets chark white skin, green hair and a big permanent smile it would be hard to recognize them, even with photographic memory
Video starts 0:00 thank me later.
❤️
And it should have ended at 0:04 after he said, "No."
💔
69th like
I now hate myself for taking credit for a like let alone making a 69 joke
Definitely team Joe Chill
I like how the Burton movie handled it by making it Joker, but it was never about who killed Thomas and Martha, it's about what killed them: crime
There is no good reason for their murder, so Bruce promises to stop the same thing that took his parents away from him
This is getting out of hand now there are two potential wayne murderers?!
What if they were partners, and joes haunted because of how fucked up Joker was/is? Maybe feels guilty for not stoping him murder the Wayne’s?
Belurso Jango! Finish her off!
Now I'm just imagining a montage akin to the alternate Who Shot Mr. Burns animation sequences, with just every possible person shooting the Waynes
New Sun here, love the delivery of your content. I’ll make sure to check out more, thanks for the video!
This was my first visit. Good job on the Jack Napier/Joe Chill theory.
We've seen Joker wear disguises. Convincing ones, even. It's possible the Waynes were a mob hit disguised as a mugging, with pre-Joker disguised as Joe Chill.
As far as Alfred, well… have we ever seen him and Joker in the same room at the same time?
What if Pre-Joker was Joe Chills boss?! That would kinda make sense...
A teenager being a 40 year old's boss?
@@RadinV1 actually if you look at joker's wiki on the animated series joker's birth year is 1948 and Batman's in 1963 thus they're of age in the 1990s which the year the series takes place despite having a noir vibe from the 40s
@@mikeyholland150 since batman beyond return of the jokers canonicity(is that a word?) Is higher than the wiki page then he must be amongst the same age as Bruce
@@RadinV1 well he did make a clone chip of himself and plant in Tim Drake's neck figuring it for a mole but if he did say age regularly he'd actually be 15 years older than Batman and thus around the time of Batman beyond might be around 91
@@mikeyholland150 even if you're right it wouldn't make sense for a mafia hitman to hire another one.
It's not what you know, it's what you can prove in court.
I've always felt it was better that the one who killed Thomas and Martha Wayne was Joe Chill or, much more preferably, an unknown assailant. Joker is too on the nose and perfectly staged.
Batman, in my opinion, has 2 great motivators: Avenging the death of his parents, and making sure no one experiences the trauma he did. While there is a very good story to tell when the killer has a known identity, it does lessen the overarching scenario of batman approaching every criminal as if they could be the one that did it. That angst and brutal screen that Bruce sees the world in helps keep him interesting to me and drives the character forward just as much as wanting to make the world a better place.
Team Joe Chill; it was a convoluted way of having Batman and the Joker be connected in Batman 1989, it was convoluted when it was revealed he killed Carl Beaumont (especially since we'd never really seen pre-Ace Chemical Joker until Mask of the Phantasm), and it feels convoluted here, especially when it depends entirely upon the World's Greatest Detective not recognizing him and the Joker never bringing it up (especially in Return of the Joker, where he finds out Bruce's identity) for the entirety of their relationship.
Mark Hamill's performance as the joker is excellent for an animated series. But the greatest incarnation of the classic villain overall is none other than Heath Ledger's joker because that incarnation of the character is more imaginative and not confined to the limitations of television animation.
"Actually I'm Irish" says the Joker as he busts through the door. Also, what if Sal Valestra set up the Joker at Ace chemicals like in the 89 movie? Just food for thought.
Maybe that is why he wanted revenge , tie loose ends and do it more personal.
I figured the joker said that to be funny, considering what the dude said prior to that
Joker's real name is Josephi Krakawski. He's of Russian decent, but adopted Italian-American attributes from being raised in a predominate Italian American suburb. His parents were very poor and were often ostracized by the people around them, and one day little Joe has had enough of it and decides to just run away. He gets lost in an ally and some thugs find him and ask him if he wants to make a little money by going with them to a jewelry heist where he would sneak into the building using his small size to crawl in through an air vent and let them in from the inside. The heist is a success, the thugs shoot a few cops, Joe himself smacks a guard, and they get out of there with diamonds, full of adrenaline and howling in laughter. Joe gets paid more money in that one night than he has ever seen in his life, and the thugs offer him a place in the gang where he could pull more heists like the one he just did. Joe gladly accepts, never once remembering his parents, and decides he would be in charge of his destiny from that point onward.
I really like this theory but I just like to think he didn't kill the Wayne's. I really like his origins in the animated series. I also like to think the joker and batman are around the same age in the animated series
How about the idea that was put in the recent Joker Movie, that the Joker incited events that lead to the Waynes being killed
I'm one of those #KeepJoker'sOriginASecret kind of guys. (Along with #KeepEpilogueASecret, of course.) And, while I'd like to separate Batman and Joker and have their relationship be linear (Batman 'birthed' Joker when he tossed him into chemicals without Jack killing Bruce's parents ), I got genuine chills just imaging how that scrapped episode would've been like. I played it in my head a few times already as I type this comment but, like, wow.
Also, I'm neither Team Joe Chill or Team Joe Kurh(?). I'm Team Howard Utley!
I also agree we should never know the Joker’s real name or much about him pre-Joker. Just like we should never see Master Chief’s face (even though I know they’ll screw up and show it to us someday anyway).
If joker killed Batman’s parents, then joker made Batman, say he recognized him as his parents killer then pushed him into the chemicals on purpose, he would feel guilty and would probably give him a reason to keep joker alive. Damn near connecting them.
I really like this theory with all the stuff about the yin and yang having them both created their own nemesises and each other with joker creating Batman and Batman creating the joker it would have just been perfect
You need to consider that BTAS was mostly based on Tim Burton’s 89’ film. Where as anything else afterwards such as New Adventures and Justice League strayed away from the 89’ film.
In the Tim Burton films, yes he is DEFINITELY responsible for killing Batman’s parents.
For what it's worth, most people have poor long-term memory for faces, and this is especially true for children, particularly in traumatic situations.
An example: when I was five years old, I was the victim of a crime that I won't name for algorithmic reasons. The perpetrator was an adult man, a stranger. He came within arm's length of me, and I stared into his face in fear and confusion for most of the time involved. I have a very clear memory of his face, so clear I could draw it today.
Except it's not a human face. In my memory, it looks more like a Halloween mask, with leathery skin, a hooked nose, and sunken eyes. I know the guy didn’t have a monster face irl because no one noticed him going in or out of the very public place where he committed the crime (a place, as it turned out, where he hung out quite a bit). He didn’t stand out in a crowd, so he probably just had a normal face; the only details of my memory that I think are accurate are his skin/eye color and the intensity of his stare, which he might not have directed at adults.
I can only assume Bruce was more traumatized by his parents' deaths than I was by my experience, as I've never felt the need to do more than beat up a punching bag about it. So it follows that his memory might not be even close to accurate.
That's the sort of detail that would drive the world's greatest detective a little batty...
Joe chill doesn't even look like mask of Phantasm Jack Napier though. I would however want you to theorize how brainiac fused to darkseid reproduced considering Dwayne McDuffie said darkseid and him and lex were fused to source wall in jlu finale
He could've been wearing a face mask.
As we discuss in the video, it’s possible Bruce could remember the face of the killer incorrectly. It’s a loose theory but still a fun one.
As for Brainiac, he in fact does not fuse with Darkseid. This is never stated in the show and disputed by Bruce Timm. We are doing a Brainiac timeline sort of video semi-soon.
@@dcauwatchtower but you have acknowledged Bruce timm goes back and forth with batman beyond year and lex told darkseid you destroyed brainiac I'll make you pay. Second I remember seeing a joker dcau Arkham profile which says real name "Jack Napier?"
@@dcauwatchtower and there's fact that McDuffie interpreted tala reviving darkseid as revenge since she could have revived brainiac
And if darkseid didn't fuse with brainiac why did luthor said he couldn't hear brainiac in his head and the fact that darkseid had armor and weapons that resembled brainiac
I think the worst part about this is, if the Joker were the Killer, he'd either not care or laugh it off and say " What a hilarious joke!"... Just to piss off Bruce!
Que the laugh Jack Napier! 13:18
I do like the murderes of the wyanes being unknown in the dcau. That it's a tragic event that has no biger meaning and closure.
I like Joe Chill. As in 1930s, 1940s Joe Chill. The one who got killed by a bunch of thugs because he told everyone he’s the reason Batman exists because he killed Batman’s parents.
I don't really care because I see the person that the Joker was before he was the Joker as a different person to who he is after he becomes the Joker.
6:58 Not as bad as Joker's Millions where he's literally renting out an apartment under the alias Mr. Joe Kerr.
I think that the idea of Joker killing Bruce’s parents is bad because the idea of a random thug killing Bruce’s parents fuels Joker’s point about “one bad day”. Bruce and the Joker weren’t fated to be nemeses. Each of them had one bad day that shaped them into who they are.
On the subject of Bruce's memories, whenever people remember a thing the memory becomes a little bit more distorted. Batman relives this memory so many times it's probably rather different in his head than it was in the alley a few decades ago.
love what you guys do, keep up the amazing work. I always thought that the batman and joker making each other thing felt too close nit. Batman is a guy who had a really bad day (parent's killed by Joe chill) and it sent him on the path that made him Batman. The joker is a guy who had a bad day (wife and unborn baby die, job goes sideways, ends up in a vat) and it sends him on the path that makes him the joker. I know other ppl have said it, but they are two different parts of a coin, two different ideologies that always clash. One making the other makes it tie up too nicely.
And the script for the gun episode, maybe I missed it, but didn't Mr Rigel say that the joker bought the gun but he didnt specify that the Joker killed the Waynes. I know that's what the episode would have alluded to, but nothing concrete. And then, Mr Tim (the heavenly father, blessed be his name) said that it wouldnt line up. That being said, he also said he didn't want brainiac being part fo soop's origin and that was a really cool call so ya....
k, batman fanboy rant over hahaha
It was so in burtons Batman movie with my boy Keaton. “You ever dance with the devil in the pale moon light?”
3:03 omg that’s so true, older kids looked old af
Fun Fact: Bob Kane actually liked the idea of Joker killing Batman's parents, and wished he had thought of that himself when he created thr character.
Eh, I was never a fan of connecting Joker to the Wayne Murders like that. Joker is one of the only characters who can get away with being a total mystery in my opinion...or, at least, what appears to be a total mystery.
I personally think it would be really cool if the backstories could all be pieced together into some form of cohesive background, instead of mindless lies; Joker's too smart to not realise that his inconstant history would come back to bite him eventually, so it would make sense for him to keep a record of what he's saying - whether or not it's his actual history, a complete fabrication he designed just to f*ck with Batman or somewhere between the two extremes is up to the writer I guess.
Even though it's never explicitly said, the reason I think batman never realized who joker was despite meeting him twice before he became joker is because Batman suffers from OCD, which makes it extremely hard to put obvious things together very often as ones brain tends to operate very specifically. It's why Riddler can't simply not leave clues, he's compelled to. It's also why riddler could never figure out Batman's identity, despite literally being the "second" smartest person in Gotham and having every clue under the sun to go "BATMAN IS BRUCE WAYNE" but when his OCD is cured via the lazeras pit it finally clicks because he's no longer under the effects of those specific wires in his brain.
I Hate the name Jack Napier!, in spanish Napier (Naipe) sounds too much like "playing card". And yes, the joker is a playing card, not funny. I think all the origin stories of the Joker are true, we just haven't put them all together.
So you also must hate the name Edward Nigma for the Riddler! Napier in spanish sounding much like "playing card" is perfectly fateful for the Joker, the name is also a homage in memorial to Alan Napier, Adam West Batman's Alfred, who had died in 1988. And the name Jack links it to Jack Torrance in The Shining, which was the inspiration for casting Jack Nicholson for Joker in the first place, and it also breaths some reality to it as Jack is also obviously Jack Nicholson's real name.
Edward Nygma is an alias used by Edward Nashton
11:04 This has actually been turned into a comic. Not 100% on the title as it's been a long time since I've read it. From what I remember Alfred dons the red lipstick and chalked face as the joker because that's when he sees Bruce most alive... or something along those lines. In the same issue I think it starts with the funeral of batman but again it was a long time ago
I think i found another cool comic book channel
I've never liked the idea that the Joker killed the Waynes. Largely because I prefer the Wayne murders being a random act of crime, no sense, no reason, no ironic twist of fate. Sometimes things just... happen.
Team unknown thug is for me, Batman will never stop because he can never have justice himself. Or so I want my head canon to state.
The one thing I don't buy, even if they tried to make it work in that tie-in comic, is that Bruce would not have a clear recollection of the killer's face.
Going as far back as the golden age in 1948's Batman #47, it was an explicit plot point that Bruce stared directly at Joe Chill's face, memorizing every feature, to the point that Chill was freaked out and said, "Stop lookin' at me like that!"
Years later when Batman sees a photo of an older Chill while working a smuggling case, he immediately recognizes him.
Granted, there have been so many versions of the origin over the years, but I have always felt that that detail from the original telling makes sense to carry over, that in that moment where his life changed, Bruce memorized the face of the first murderer that shattered his world.
Joker is Also know as Jeremiah Valeska in Gotham.
J Turner I still prefer Jerome as the Joker
Plus he went by Arthur once...
@@l.pricetag.5207 Same
Allow me to offer my applause for “the open nature of his nomenclature”. Good job.
Yea jokers my pal we go out for drinks on a Sunday night
For those watching this after October 2019: We saw it in the Joker movie. The Joker did not kill Bruce's parents, but was responsible for their deaths as he caused the chaos leading to it. I do like this rendition as it further explains why Bruce became a symbol of order as the Batman; he wanted to fight the chaos that lead to his parents' demise.
Amr Sobeh But it’s still an Elseworlds tale
If joker killed the Wayne's, wouldn't he have said something in ROTJ flashback, when he finds out Bruce is batman?
Ethan Grimsley he’d still have jokers memories though
Joke Chillker.
Jack Fakier
Who’s to say Joker’s name wasn’t Joe Chill
As a kid I always thought the Joker killed Bruce’s parents. It’s what my parents taught me and it’s what the movies said. It wasn’t until much, much later I found out it was some guy called Joe Chill and that just didn’t have the same gravitas.
Bruce was nine and his parents took him to a movie and when they went out joe tried to kill bruce his parents took the bullets
You all forget light comes from dark corresponding with each other in an interstellar dance
Totally the joker, they had a whole script for it!!!
I honestly prefer the Joker being an incarnation/reborn version of Alfred Stryker, the very first Batman villain, who presumably died falling into a vat of chemicals.
He has a name
First name: THE
LAST NAME: JOKER duh 😅
THE JOKER duh 😅 is a good name
We know that there are three jokers. What if one of them really killed Bruce's parents and killed by batman in the killing joke, while the other jokers are alive
Thanks for this video! I really wasn't expecting a something like this, but I did enjoy it. Personally, I prefer for the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents to be Joe Chill rather than the Joker. Bruce's crusade against should be against crime in general rather than towards a specific person. Also, it's too convenient for me that the man who killed Bruce Wayne's parents also ends up being the Joker. This element is something that should have stayed exclusively to the Tim Burton movies.
Speaking of those movies, there is something that needs to be said about them. I'm going to flat out admit that they are terrible excuses for Batman movies. Batman murders people with a smile on his face!? The Joker being given a definitive name, dancing to Prince music, and wanting to get in bed with Vicki Vale!? Catwoman having a split personality as well as adding supernatural elements to her character!? The Penguin being raised by actual penguins in a sewer, being more similar to Killer Croc than the character he is supposed to be based on in the comics, using actual rocket strapped penguins to take over Gotham, the movie wanting us to both sympathize with him and yet still cheer for his defeat!? The movies spend more time focusing on the villains than the title character.
What the heck, Tim Burton!? You can't just twist the characters into whatever you want. Some deviation is acceptable, but when you go against the core of these characters, or make some absolutely bizarre changes for no rhyme or reason; it doesn't work. You need to have read more than just The Killing Joke. People say Joel Schumacher ruined Batman. No, Tim Burton did. The reason the first two movies got praise was due to him getting the Adam West image out of the public consciousness. I am so thankful I was able to see proper adaptations of Batman through the DCAU and the Nolanverse movies before watching those movies to see what they were like.
Are you finished, oh Enlightened, learned one?
6:25 Don’t we hear his voice in the episode with Condiment King?
I suppose we do! Assuming that's how he spoke pre-Joker. The comedian flashbacks in that are only from a year prior, when he's already The Joker.
@@dcauwatchtowerIs he?
Yep! It's a common misconception, because of the similarities to his Killing Joke comedian origin. All that's happening in "Make 'Em Laugh" is that The Joker enters a comedy contest 2 years in a row, both times in disguise.
5:02 AIRPLANE!!!!!!!
Having been a huge fan of Batman (1989) I always assumed Jack Napier was the Joker plan and simple.
I know his name its Arthur Fleck....no....ill leave then
A. Fleck! Rehab time!
No but in the DCAU Joker is still partially responsible for Bruce becoming Batman because as shown in Mask of the Phantasm when Bruce was training to become Batman he met Andrea Beaumont and fell in love with her and he was going to give up his crusade to be with her to the point where he goes to Thomas and Martha's grave to ask them if it's OK to break his vow to avenge them because he's happy with Andrea. But thanks to Andrea's dad Carl embezzling money from the Valestra mob and having to go abroad to escape them until Arthur Reeves told Valestra where they were when Carl wouldn't fund his first election campaign and they sent their hitman who would later become The Joker to kill Carl. After that Bruce threw himself into being Batman with his chance at happiness lost.
The true answer is actually that Joker got plastic surgery and a name change from being Joe Ker👍🏻Done lmao
I prefer the idea that the killer of Batman’s parents has no face. Joe Chill is such an every-man Name. He symbolises Street crime perfectly. A mugging in an alley. It wasn’t The Joker who took Batman’s parents... it was crime that took Batman’s parents.
What if Jim gordan shot the waynes being a dirty cop and does not arrest batman knowing he is bruce and helping him to try to say sorry for the mistake he made so long ago like if agree
*Green Lantern
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 cool
You should've titled the video "Has Batman ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"
First comment
In one of the Joker episodes in the first season of the Animated Series it shows the Joker's real name being "Jack Napier"
Yes, but later this was said to be one of many aliases
That was real deep dig character history of "Mr. J" .... I didn't know so much about him before this day. Thank you so much James #watchtowerdatabase
The Red Hood wasn't even mentioned - that's what the original comics say the Joker used to be.
the comedian that turned out to be the joker was already the joker by the time of when that contest aired in the episode
I remember thinking that Joker killed Bruce’s parent’s, in like… EVERY version. I don’t know why, but I guess it added a bit more spice to things.
PLOT TWIST! Both are Jokers. You're a Joker. Everyone is The Joker.
We are all Jerome!