How to spot and deal with abusive players (intentional or unintentional) Warhammer 40k!
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- There are ALOT of things that happen in this game, that can unintentionally (or intentionally) be used to make for an abusive gaming environment, lets figure out some common ones, and how to deal with it.
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Развлечения
Re: Leaders having OC1 . For the longest time I was 99% sure my Warboss had 2 OC, but he's only got 1!
I absolutely made this mistake myself
depends on the leader too. squigbosses are OC3. but for the most part. infantry characters are OC1. mounted/vehicle/monster ones tend to be more
I watch these sort of videos as I'm terrified of unintentionally cheating/being a bad player in any way. It holds me back from playing more I think
oh dont let it hold you back! Go forth and smash, just be aware of some frustrating things that can happen as you and your friends learn
this is super helpful. i've never played a single game yet (currently painting my deff dread). it is nice to have an idea of how i can be a better opponent in the future!
Alot of people over complicate things, its really just recognizing you are playing a 2 player game :)
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 i really liked your section on communicating intent. reminds me of a book i read that was all about intent based speaking
Looking forward to those measuring tools.
You dont need to activate a trap card - the idea of the "trap card" is to put your opppnent in a situation where all decisions available lead to bad outcomes for them
This is the way
I feel really bad about getting rules wrong or making mistakes. In a friendly game (all games are friendly) it's sometimes best to overcorrect mistakes. Like one time I scored more wounds than I should've because I accidentally applied lethal hits when i didn't have lethals. My opponent and I couldn't remember if I got one or two lethals. I just took out two dice and kept the game moving even though we could've gone back and forth trying to figure out one or two.
yeah thats an easy way to do it, its either that or just reroll the whole thing
Great video man! I’ve had the clock used against me as a weapon and it felt aggressive from the off!
Love this guys energy
Great content buddy. Keep up the hard work.
Cheers home slice! I really appreciate your support
also be aware about people declaring an intent that is not possible, seen that more and more.
sadly happens alllll the time
"My intent is to hide from shooting from this angle"
*places enormous model in direct los from that angle*
Thank you for making this video. Subbing to the channel for it. Great lessons for new players like myself.
I watched the stream you are on about and agree with all that you said. The same player that is lose with movement is then super tight with their opponent on scoring. Annoyed me.
sadly these things matter alot. To be clear, i like that player alot, i think he is a good guy, its just the consequence of doing things sloppily :/
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 agreed, nice player off game but it is like you are saying. You can't have double standards in a game as it creates bad sentiment.
If you are on the same page as your opponent, cool. But if they are strict in some areas and not others - that's an issue.
Thank you for posting this. I’ve been guilty of these and needed to hear it.
At some point we have all been guilty of these at one point or another! Good on you for accepting that and deciding to work on it!
Love my Kill Team measuring tools, doesn't crush any models if I drop them on accident, too.
oooo that is super nice. I have broken..... more than a few models haha
In the top 3 best how-to 40K videos I’ve ever seen.
oh cheers bud, glad it was useful!
Another Awesome Video
I unintentionally was a rules bully for a while. Usually it was on "obscure" rules, but I would do my best to explain. My opponent would explain thier view and it ruined the game as it turned into an argument.
I have decided to go into all games with the idea that I will always defer to a "to" first and look into the rules more after the game. At tournaments this is an actual to. Friendly games at the club it is another player. Friendly private games or might just be a dice roll. This might result in some rules being played wrong for that game, but I do it with an understanding that puts only for that game and a commitment to read into the rules more so I'm more prepared for next time. This prevents us from having high stake debates (dice the game is already over) and additional mental fatigue.
While this is my default, of the opponent wants to look into the rules during that game, in open to it. Just so long as we have a mutual understanding that neither of us is out to prove who is right, but simply to better understand.
Warhammer is a game of perfect information.
You never have to give away your strategy, or how you can combo several abilities together.
But your opponent should be able to plan and play out their turn with the full knowledge of what you can do.
I can reactive move with any infantry etc.
I can lone operative XYZ units etc
100% agreed my man!
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 i also watched that ork vs BA match live stream aswell and saw you in there. not naming anyone. but the ork player was extremely sloppy with coherency and movement, and everyone kept defending them saying it doesn't matter, when infact it does. those gretchin stretched all the way out probably take up 2-4" extra space on the table. tried explaining the pile in issues that you described in this video, but everyone defends it. whether intentional or not, this sloppiness gains the player unfair advantages.
I think the way your abilities combo together should also be freely shared
@pius1922 not necessarily. Would depend on the situation.
But say, for example, I'm playing grey knights. My opponent has full knowledge of can use mist of deimos to go into strategic reserves.
They move within 9" knowing that and agree they will disappear.
You don't have to tell them you can rapid Ingress them back in. It's a core mechanic of the game, and screening should be considered as part of their movement.
On the other hand. When I play marines, gladius specifically. I do let my opponent know when I use squad tactics, I can use that movement to embark into a transport if I roll high enough.
And I'm usually positioned on an objective, or tucked away where they have to come near me anyway.
Communication is an underestimated tool in playing these games.
The vehicle movement I see alot. Especially transports full of good infantry. Hard to want to explain to your opponent how wrong it is, especially when you are winning
Best content going
Good to be aware of all of this! I just caught myself on the advance all units at once. Got any tips to be mindful on? Im not that rules savvy but i do sort of declare intent but in a form of a question if im unsure on the core principles of it.
It just takes experience and making sure you are not abusing rules, which we all do to some extent until it is pointed out to us by others :) Basically just take feedback as constructive.
Does anyone else let their opponents first movement phase determine how loose or rigid you are going to be?
When playing a new person i certainly do.
As an Eldar player, I always watch dice hitting each other in the tray whenever I or others have to reroll a dice. If it hits another dice and changes the number is something I try to keep an eye out for
i never say that I "know" that something has what it has for sure. I always say something like "I know it should" or "last time I checked" while I go and search for the rule. I've been unintentionally wrong due to misreading a rule. I've never done it on purpose but I've been wrong accidentally a lot
this is the way, takes nothing to look it up :)
I live in a small country with a relatively small warhammer community. This means perhaps a couple of hundred people participating in tournaments in the whole country on a regular basis with most of those people living in one city.
One person organises most of the events. There are also a few talented players in the community who go participate at WTC for our national team.
They've formed a bit of an unofficial 'old boys club' where big ego-stroking, status-enhancing circle-jerking are commonplace. Its a small pond where everyone wants to be the big fish.
This means that all of the TOs and judges have their noses so far up eachother's and the 'old-boys' arses that they will almost never go against one of the 'old boys' in their decisions.
If you question the status-quo then you're ostracized or left-out. It sucks.
that... sounds awful
I'm glad others picked up on the "incorrect" pile in movement in that game. I found it slightly odd that even the commentary were saying "this is fine", seemingly in disagreement with a lot of comments they were getting from viewers. Top players being allowed to play loosely because they are top players looks bad, and gives them a seemingly unfair advantage to further improve their standing.
(A similar thing happened in the same game/same player, with stringing units out of coherency. Again, the commentary was providing excuses for this).
yeeeaaaaaah, that is an issue
Watching the Live Stream last weekend with the Ork player I knew you would do a video on it. It was sloppy as hell and I agree how it played out was not correct but it was technically possible. It would have been such an awesome learning moment for everyone on stream had the movement been clean.
I agree 100%
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 so here is my question. Why didnt his opponent ask him to do it properly?
If I remember correctly, they were running short on time at the end of the match. Might've been a consideration, but I don't know.
In casual games with friends I tend to forego the rotation of vehicle stuff when playing on WTC boards. They become so excruciatingly slow that I very much doubt if that was how it was intended by GW to begin with.
Also I find it often way too finnicky for the very reason you unintentionally display xD You want to start rotating and "oh, you can't, going through a wall there!" Now you have to determine exactly where the model was before you did the first bit of movement. Ugh... xD
sure but there are many intereactions in the game where you simply discuss have agree with your opponent before you strat the move.
Awesome content as usual, thanks for making this! I have a question! In the example of moving the Kill Rig around the corner, you state you have to pay for pivot and that you measure the rotation of the "base". There's a core rule note in the rules commentary, which i think lays this out, that says "When measuring to and from vehicles with bases (excluding aircraft and walkers) always measure to or from its base or hull, whichever is closest...". Otherwise big vehicles that have small circular bases (E.G. Devilfish) wouldn't have to pay for rotation at all! Or is there something I am missing?
You got it.
I'm scared by that hat inside!
Had a question about the Strat “realm of chaos” Chaos Daemons. It’s a strat that removes 2 units from the battlefield to reserve and specifically says to place down next movement phase. My friend claimed I cannot do this in the first battle round but the units didn’t start in reserve? Wouldn’t that make this Strat useless?
Yes you can. In the rule commentary ctrl f: Arriving from Strategic Reserves in the First Battle Round
@@cristalpowah oh sweet thank you for the info bratha! Still new to the game that helps with a complicated army 🤙
You could make they rotation better by rotating with but as an axis - in tts it does require doing rotation and move, but it you keep tail end of the model in same spot at the end of it and measure distance from the prow youd get two-three inches closer while adhering to the rules
100%
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Only mentioned that cause example (I understand the need for quickness on such a complicated topic) could have been misinterpreted by some as the way you shown to be the only "not scummy way". Great vid
I mess up on strat timing a lot
Super easy one to mess up! It does get easier as you start to question timing more often though, keep it up!
Subbed
Do you go to any tournaments in the US?
rarely since i live in Europe, i am looking into sponsorship to travel to LVO next year though :)
I love that you mentioned sloppy movement. It's definitely a thing, and I know your other videos are demonstrating concepts and you need models to cheese a little bit to show the example, but I cringe whenever you move 3.1 for a "pile in" move, haha.
lol i can definitely be more careful during my explanation videos in the future! Fair play
I hate to win by got'ya moments. Its back from some eddition (cant remember, I have been playing since 2nd) where spacewolfes got army wide heroic intervene in their codex and I played at a friendly casual RTT and faced of vs spacewolfes, since it was a friendly casual they allowed the SW codex even though it was released the same day since the only player got it in mail the day before.
Anyway, he went first and advanced up the board. In my turn I moved upp alot of infantery (AM) to move block his next turn. When we got to assault phase he smugly showed me the change that came with the codex and heroic intervened into my line, crushed it in melee and concolidated closer to my army.
Edit. After that I always reminde my oponent what I can do when they do thinga just to be sure theydont get coughr by surprise.
That got'ya costed me like 80 guardsmen and the game. I was basicaly tabled at the end of my turn 2 because I didnt have enough room to fall back from him.
If I’m running 2 big meks with meganobz and Ghaz with meganobz. Can I deepstrike with a warboss in mega armor solo?
yes :)
I had an issue in a tournament where my opponent playing chaos daemons using a soul bringer with nurgle mark telling me it was t12 all game for me to find out near the end that nurgle mark doesnt give that model +1 toughness.
TO couldnt do anything at that point.
Thats a tough one, because that changes your opponent's decisions in Every game about when and if to shoot that model, If it were me i would drop from the tournament if i made that mistake
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 I lost that match because of it, I would have played very differently if I had known his guy was only t11.
Just like relationships, most problems in Warhammer can be solved by communicating more and walking through stuff step by step! :)
This guy gets it!
I absolutely agree with everything in your video(and it is all presented great!), EXCEPT for your opinion on the clock. A player is always responsible for their own time. According to the chess clock guidelines, it is supposed to be passed to the defender when they are making saves. It is then up to the defender to pass it back to the attacker. Could such an act be misconstrued as maybe a little passive aggressive by passing the clock on 3 saves? Yes, for sure. But, it is still within the rules and the optimal way to use clocks. You never know if the defender might want to slow-roll for a potential CP re-roll or something like that, or maybe they are fiddling with how they remove casualties, or they have FNPs to roll, etc.
The way i look at it, the clock is a thing for both players to be aware of to make the game not stall. It is not to be used as a weapon
On measuring, another one bad players will try is "oh.. its half an inch out...thays all good right?" But itll be on the absolute key charge and theyll try say their "intent" was to be closer, but they couldn't be
Yeah playing by "intent" is only possible if the "intent" is actually possible haha
My second game on 40k my buddy punished me and didn't allow me to advance. I thought that time I can move my units and then advance who I wanted and I wanted to advance all because it was my Waagh turn. He sayed I should advance the unit same time I move it. True that, but I was new and didn't remember. Felt bad because only few charges was successful and obviously I lost the game.
Second time was my latest game when I was removing boyz models while they died and later he mentioned that my unit was on coherence... One Boyz models was behind big enemy unit and I didn't see it properly where I was and I had to remove one extra model. Of course I would of removed models in row so they stay correctly, but he chose again to be dig
Sounds like your buddy's ego couldn't handle a loss. Hopefully he figures things out.
That Otter looks suspicious to me....
He IS sus
Based square edge dice lets gooooo
Urrrghhh I hate it when opponents deploys models in my time - definitely a huge feel bad
that one is a biiiiig problem
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 I would be very interested in ordering the 9" and 6" measuring devices as well as the dice (only have access to the common 3"/2"/1" one). Do you deliver to China? If so, could you share the link please matey?
Edit: The 9" one is perfect since Move Move Move is the strongest rule in the Guard codex 😀
I am currently in the planning phase :) we have dice that should be available for order in a week or two, but have not produced our measuring devices yet!
A feelsbad moment I had recently:
Playing as Orks vs a mates Blood Angels - both still very much learning.
I'm setting up a charge with my Squighogs into his Death Company Dread, while my Snaggas and Beastboss are nearby lining up his other Dread for a charge.
For the sake of it, I shoot my Squighogs into his DC Dread for it all to bounce off (as expected). Then he gotchas me with Frenzied Reprisal and flamers all my Snaggas to death.... Fun!
yeah that is a toughy, basically i explicitly tell people about that pre game, and i remind them once in game. The way i see it, if they forget after that its on them, but i need people to not just have a brain fart because its a mechanism that is not common in the game.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 yea i used to over-remind players to the point where i could never use tricks or abilities to their full potential, not ill remind them once but after that i cant play their game for them.
yeah, me and 5 mates started at 250 points, every month adding 250 points to get an army to 2k. all learning our own army yet alone another 5 armys.
Cool video. There were a couple of points about movement i disagreed with, but generally a good video. For all the cheating, sloppy play and BM in my 20+ years of wargaming, intent is what is most important. Just enjoy the game, i have seen games won against people who used loaded dice. Generally people who cheat are bad players and in my experience, if you are a good player you will still usually beat them despite them cheating 😂
What 40K simulator are you using?
Table top simulator
Table Top Simulator, it rocks for practice
The vehicle movement rotation measurements are bs, but it is how it works.
i mean not having to pay for rotation would make them quite insane, you would get a crazy amount of "free Movement"
I agree actually, and tend not to play it that way with friends, especially on terrain-heavy boards. Either you see it as "a lot of free movement" or "these things can't get effin' *anywhere*". Generally I feel like just agreeing on a pivot point and then not measuring the movement while turning makes for more fun games.
Movement and positioning are so important. I think that is compounded by many people focusing on damage dealing/absorbing, and abilities when picking units, then "fudging" when they get those slow moving units on the table - Centurion Devastators look awesome in UnitCrunch, but pale a bit when you actually start moving them 4" a turn.
Vehicle movement is a pain, perhaps they should just allow unlimited rotation in place and adjust movement downward - in reality, a vehicle with 10" of movement maneuvering through buildings is lucky to get 6" on the ground when accounting for rotations, so give it 6" and the only pi we have to worry about is cherry :)
thats definitely a way around it
Onus
Gonna have to disagree on your interpretation on how much movement needs to be spent on rotation. I also don't agree with the first way of measuring, but the way you have done it feels like rules bullying on your part unless you point out the rule that says that rotating a model requires movement. A fair solution in real life games is to use a premeasured string for the movement that you can lay in the arc the vehicle travels. This is the most accurate way of measuring it from point of base to point of movement RAW. If not, you start devolving the fun of the game to the point where if you start telling me to "pay for rotation" despite that not being in the rules, then I wont rotate my vehicles at all and have them moving in an immersion breaking but technically correct way (Sliding sideways with bases oriented horizontally for maximum move blockage) since there are no facing rules for vehicles in 40k.
Core rules Pg 13 "The distance a model
moves is measured using the part of its base that moves furthest
along its path. If a model does not have a base, measure using
whichever part of that model moves the furthest" you measure for rotation bud
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 If you measure for rotation, the word rotation would be in the rule bud, there is no explicit cost to movement for rotation like in Battletech. Read where it says you follow along a "path" and then look at your weird vehicle movement that moves, rotates in place 90 degrees and for some reason takes the linear length of that 90 degree rotation then, instead of measuring arc length of the path traveled. Look at my solution which follows a natural "path" the model follows along, with the leading edge of the model moving exactly it's movement in distance. It's the best method for keeping both RAW and RAI.
The best way to move with vehicles keeping both RAW and RAI is to draw a path whose length is equal to the movement length which allows the minimum clearance of a model, half it's width if measuring from the center of the farthest forward part of the model or base, then move that model point to point along the path, with natural rotation coming along for free as it moves along the path.
Again, you either should use a string so you don't have to do calculus to figure out the exact length of a curved line, or draw a polygon with each segments total distance equal to the movement distance if you want to trade speed for accuracy at the expense of the moving player, making sure there's enough clearance for the model/base to clear the corner of the building. You end up somewhere between your first example which is bad measuring giving advantage, and your desired method of measurement is bad measuring giving disadvantage.
tl;dr There is no explicit cost associated with rotating a model, but both ways you demonstrated of measuring vehicles turning around terrain are equally lazy/malicious depending on intent. I offer a solution which is fulfils both staying true to Rules as Written while being closer to rules as intended for how vehicles work in reality. It ends up being between the two lengths given.
I believe we are saying the same thing my man, i think you are getting caught up by the limitations of tts, we have no "string" to measure with there
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 We both agree the first method is poor, I just also see your solution as just as poor. In TTS or if using the type of straight premade lengths you are promoting, I would suggest making a polygon. For example if you got 10" of movement, you can make a three section segmented line segment of 3", 5" 2" forming a 90 degree turn which you follow along giving free rotation in exchange for not doing the proper curved line which would have the rotation naturally taken care of since it's the arc length.
In TTS, you can do each movement and turn as a single step, so in your Killrig example above, you measure out 3" straight forward and move model 3", draw a line from center of front of base/model 45 degrees and 5" away and then move the model point to point, rotating the model 45 degrees as part of the movement, then measure another 45 degree turn and 2" away move the model to the last spot point to point again.
In real life, when I don't have string, I bend my tape measure until I mess it up and it can't retract anymore.
Maybe make your measuring sticks thin and bendy like the old GW red rod of death so we can measure curves more accurately?
Your section on movement doesn’t quite seem right.
Nowhere in the 10th edition rules does it say that rotating a model costs movement. All models are free to pivot in place.
The model you used to explain your rotation payments is a kill rig which is a vehicle on a base.
Vehicles with bases has its own section in the rules commentary that specifies all measurements are made from the furthest point of the model. The model is free to move and pivot, but no part of the model can exceed the units maximum movement characteristic.
The way this is played in my local area in NoVa is generally we just bend a tape measure the 10” around terrain (+advance if applicable) no part of the model can exceed this measurement.
It does bud, Core rules, you must measure from the furthest point moved on a model
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 after asking around about it in my local discord and discussing the same concept worded about 3 different ways, turns out I’ve just been playing sloppy the entire last year.
I’ve not actually seen it described before in the way you broke it down in TTS. Most common description I’m familiar with is more like the knight in chess description where say a gladiator lancer with 10” move goes forward 7” to clear a 5” ruin and then used the rest of its move to face 90 degrees to the right to start heading up a lane.
Always good to learn the right way 👍
You are not sloppy with movement you play Orks…. 1/2 inch can change a waaggh. I play genestealersz I am super concerned about my deployment zone measure and opponents at star of game . I have scout 8. You are not pedantic his consequent.
The ‘before game summary’ is nonsense ImO. It’s like the barber holding up the mirror 🪞 to show you the back. You just nod and agree.
If you have specific questions ask them.
some people play like this. I think its nonsense to require people to memorize 1000+ datasheets and even more strats/exceptions. To each their own though
Especially when codices are paywalled
If I announce that my army has some 'gotchas' you have been warned.
I like activating my trap cards.
However enhancements and detachment rules are announced. The implications, however, are not.
absolutely, no need to play the game for your opponent or reveal your game plan, its just about letting them know what your capabilities are
I do not understand this idea around feels bad and gotchas, especially as the only example of an acceptable time to not remind of a rule is a final of a super major ??? Is it actually playing the game to go to make a charge into a unit that has a reactive move and have your opponent stop you by reminding you of that ? There is no onus on opponents in any other game I know of to remind you of good and bad moves, I wouldn't ever lie about having a rule but I don't see why people are so adverse to making a mistake and being punished for it ? Isn't that all part of the skill and practice in games that involve strategy ? Obviously people would take it too far and a really experienced player could just ruin a new players experience and that's bad you should guide in that scenario but why has this gotten to the point where it's iffy to not prod your opponent into not making mistakes even in a GT ? Why have rules that are reactions if you are constantly warning them you have that reaction ?
Making mistakes is 100% part of the game. But if people do not know you have an ability that breaks the core mechanics of the game, then they cannot make informed decisions.
Found "that guy"
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 in chess you don't get told an opponent plans to move their bishop, your skill is judged by how well you can predict the moves to come and how well you react to them. And I think my struggle comes from a place of if the game was designed to be open and informed why are all the rules designed to be locked off at every turn ? Id agree the way Warhammer should be played is 100% information if everyone had access to that information but they don't. Just feels counter intuitive.
@therandomoguy3809 but you know how far the bishop moves. If you were playing someone in chess who wasn’t as familiar with it, wouldn’t you tell them “ the bishop moves diagonally” or would you just not tell them how the pieces move? The point is that both players both know the rules and then make decisions off of those rules. The reactive move isn’t to surprise your opponent, it is to force your opponent to make decisions that put the game in your favor.
@@therandomoguy3809 pretty sure it's a rough comparison when the entire game of chess has less rules involved than one single combat patrol faction. knowing how the pieces move is a prerequisite to playing chess, but knowing how your opponent's specific models and detachments work is not a prerequisite for playing 40k. the polite thing to do, since rules aren't even free as you yourself mention, is to inform your opponent of what you can do with your pieces since most people won't already know that. If they do, then you don't have to. This video is about etiquette and polite play, not about what is strictly necessary to follow the rules.
I like how in the first 8 minutes he yeaches you how to waste time and slow play while giving it the color of legitimacy
you are a bit of a salty bear eh :P