this video took me way too long because I edited about 20 minutes worth of stupid cornercases out of it lol anyways thanks to Objective Ctrl for sponsoring these antics - go check 'em out ya nerd ➡ www.kickstarter.com/projects/objectivectrl/precision-miniature-magnets-thematic-game-aids ➕ objectivectrl.com/
Yeah, it's a hallmark of GW's game design and one of their biggest weaknesses IMO. Their rules seem simple until they start stacking addendums and conditional clauses to them and it quickly becomes a nightmare.
@TacticalTortoise I love how irl every time an explanation is given it follows the following format Very simple and easy to follow explanation Person learning thinks/says something like "cool got it" Then an awkward "weeellll" followed by the "however, in this case" or "unless" or "sometimes" etc Person learning becomes unsure of how anything works anymore
How does it work for things like Valkyries if they go into hover and lose Aircraft? Do you still measure to the base or pick one of the very flung out parts of it? The Valkyrie is a massive footprint if you are using its hull, wings and tail. So could you put down models well away from its base that get out? Since you measure from the very tip of the wing? Can things be charged when under the wing of a Valkyrie by enemies, since its engagement range would be its hull/wing? I have always been in the thinking that if it has an accessible base, you measure to the base.
I love 40K and have only been involved since the end of 9th/start of 10th. But I think it’s still (despite the streamlining for 10th) too complex if it needs so many erratas, data sheet changes and codex updates within an average 3-year cycle between new editions.
I’m a Drukhari collector rather than player - just to be clear if someone is measuring to my Raider/Ravager hull they could use a spear tip of one of the mounted Drukhari to class that as LoS/range?? seems insane haha
So just for clarification, in the “Measurement Madness” portion you would need to draw line of sight to the further distance because the Knight was not fully in the terrain?
You say abilities like Brotherhood Librarian are rare…but that’s how Grenades work too…which is pretty common. I’ve often had to throw grenades thru a wall when the model I move out to get LOS to the other unit is like 12-16” away. So either that one guy is suddenly a major league pitcher able to throw twice as far, or he’s yelling to the guy closer but obstructed…little to the left….lot it Carl!!
If one model in a unit is within range of an enemy but the rest of the models in said unit are strung back and out of range, do all models in that unit still get to shoot?
How do you measure LoS to a Triarch Stalker? It does not come with a base and some players pose its legs so it looks more dynamic (Not me). Howwever the Front Legs are huge. Their have high knees and the legs extend outward no matter how much you push them inwards. Also, I just watched a video that said if a unit containing multiple infantry models is trying to target another unit of several infantry. However, if one of your models is not able to see the same unit, your entire unit is unable to target and shoot your opponent's unit despite the fact all of them have visibility to the same unit accept your one dude that is in a ruin which is also behind an obstructing terrain piece. Refarding another issue, sometimes I come across players who are shocked that i get to shoot and deal multiple attacks if my entire unit can draw LoS to just one member of his unit of 20 Warriors while the other 19 are behind a building. I simultaneously roll all my shooting attacks against the one visible Warrior and if I successfully deal10 wounds, his entire unit has to make saving throws vs 10 wounds. He assumed that by allocating the first successful wound which ends up destroying his one visible model will prevent the 9 remaining hits will prevent any further damage to his Warriors which is not correct. Since my unit is using the same ranged weapon everything is simultaneously and does not prevent the fact that damage still needs to be resolved vs his entire unit despite I could only see one infanty model in his unit. Even I was thrown off by tgat rule when i started 9th edition. However, 10th edition has some pretty dumb and complicated LoS rules which I feel like where unattended and GW doesn't want to reword the rules for LoS and ranged attacks. What ever happened to Simple, but not simple? Or maybe this is what they meant by Simple but not?
1. You measure true line of sight to the closest point on the Stalker. For the purposes of this rule, all parts of the stalker become its "hull", so measuring to the closest tip of an outstretched leg is valid. 2. This is incorrect. Units have line of sight to each other as long as one model of unit A is visible to any model in unit B. For determining eligible targets for attacks, it's done using each model. So in your example, if all but one model in your attacking unit can see at least one of the enemy models in the target unit, all of them but one can shoot that unit. 3. Your opponent is incorrect here. All of the units attacks are allocated at once, even if only a single enemy model is visible. This means you get to roll the attacks and he has to roll the saves even if the first model pulled from failed saves is the only visible model. This likewise applies to melee combat. If you have multiple melee profiles in your attacking unit, your opponent can pull models in such a way that the units are no longer in engagement range, but you still get to roll all of the melee attacks for your unit.
The video you watched about attack targetting may have been referring to cover? Most terrain features give cover to models if the entire attacking unit doesn't have LOS to them, which will automatically apply if any of the attackers can't see them. Might be worth a second look. Also yeah, Triarch Stalkers measure and draw LOS to anywhere on the model - posing the legs differently can shrink/enlarge their footprint.
10:55 The rules excerpt screenshotted here is out of date -- towering was removed from the exceptions. (Not disagreeing with anything actually stated in the video, just noting in case anyone sees it and thinks Towering still ignores the obstructions like Aircraft)
I’m confused in the example of the daemon prince and the termagaunts, the closest termagaunt is wholly within a ruin, does that not make him visible? Don’t the rules state models can see into and out of the ruin as normal if the model is wholly within the ruin? Or does the fact that not all the termagaunts are within the same ruin mean they’re not visible?
And same with the daemon prince and the knight, is the daemon prince not wholly within the ruin? So is he not visible regardless of height of the wall and whether the infantry could see him? So much confusion
Units within ruins can be seen as normal; which means that the normal LOS rules apply (the model has visibility if there is any unbroken line between them). If true LOS is blocked to a model you still can't see it. Check out my terrain video for more stuff about ruins: ruclips.net/video/1OfqjO28Uss/видео.html
@@TacticalTortoise thanks 🙏🏽 I get it now, I for some reason didn’t realize true line of sight overrode the ruin rules. But makes sense. Your videos are awesome and you’re very good at breaking down all the nuances of rules. Keep up the amazing work!
How does line of sight work with "overwatch"? A unit start out of line of sight (behind building) Then moves in line of sight and end up behind a building to block line of sight? My friend was claiming that I could not shoot him. Cause he started and ended out of line of sight.
Wait a minute. So if a player wants to shoot his Stormraven Gunship (aircraft keyword) he would have to measure LOS from the base? And NOT the outstretched wings?
Base to base is the only way to do LoS rules right. Shooting the tips of tentacles and gun barrels peeking out of cover is just stupid. Awesome sponsor! I can’t wait for their base magnets!
How does a units height factor in with base to base measurement? I only started playing tabletop wargames with 10th edition so am not sure how it would work. Also high ground. Even a slight height advantage would hide the base behind the terrain even if a lot of the model was visible still.
What if I see only 1 model of a squad of let's say 5 models. This squad just wanted to avoid getting damaged and only score missions. They are behind a ruin and I just moved there so that I can see at least one model. But as said, I can only see 1/5. Can I attack all the other models / whole squad? Are the remaining attacks getting counted and applied? So does the defender then has to distribute the remaining attacks / damage to the others models which technically can't be seen anymore. OR can I only kill that 1 model and that's it?
So this is something that I've learned recently. I've had opponents who have toe'd into terrain piece with something like a big vehicle in order to "see through" that terrain piece, and as it turns out, this isn't allowed if that big vehicle isn't wholly within the terrain feature. Page 14 of the rules commentary has a good figure for this.
These rules are so bad. So many things are abstract, which isnt automatically bad, but the action is still so clunky that it shows james workshop has no idea what fun is supposed to look or sound like
If it upsets you that bad.... Play a different game. There are so many out there, and they all have different rules/mechanics. In fact, I play about 8 different games with my Warhammer models, Warhammer and 7 different model agnostic games.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
this video took me way too long because I edited about 20 minutes worth of stupid cornercases out of it lol
anyways thanks to Objective Ctrl for sponsoring these antics - go check 'em out ya nerd ➡ www.kickstarter.com/projects/objectivectrl/precision-miniature-magnets-thematic-game-aids ➕ objectivectrl.com/
Warhammer is one of those games that could really benefit from what games use known as a "collision cylinder".
Monty Python’s “How to Not Be Seen” already taught me so much.
The number of words like "but" or "unless" or "except" is a good indicator of what u need to know about gw
Yeah, it's a hallmark of GW's game design and one of their biggest weaknesses IMO. Their rules seem simple until they start stacking addendums and conditional clauses to them and it quickly becomes a nightmare.
@TacticalTortoise I love how irl every time an explanation is given it follows the following format
Very simple and easy to follow explanation
Person learning thinks/says something like "cool got it"
Then an awkward "weeellll" followed by the "however, in this case" or "unless" or "sometimes" etc
Person learning becomes unsure of how anything works anymore
13:18 Why can't the Demon Prince shoot at the Termagants inside of the ruin? I thought the rule is that all models can see into a ruin normally.
Amazing and insightful video Trevy! So happy to sponsor this and many more! Keep being awesome!!!
Thanks for supporting the channel ;)
How does it work for things like Valkyries if they go into hover and lose Aircraft? Do you still measure to the base or pick one of the very flung out parts of it? The Valkyrie is a massive footprint if you are using its hull, wings and tail. So could you put down models well away from its base that get out? Since you measure from the very tip of the wing? Can things be charged when under the wing of a Valkyrie by enemies, since its engagement range would be its hull/wing? I have always been in the thinking that if it has an accessible base, you measure to the base.
As a new player this is very helpful. Thanks for making it and making everything easy to follow!
I love 40K and have only been involved since the end of 9th/start of 10th. But I think it’s still (despite the streamlining for 10th) too complex if it needs so many erratas, data sheet changes and codex updates within an average 3-year cycle between new editions.
Do units block line of sight ? So if a termaguant was behind a big unit saying a psycophage .
Does that big unit block the smaller one being shot ?
Ty. This is a good start. It was more about ranging targets than any moving.
I believe "pile in" is a thing? How to screen correctly?
I’m a Drukhari collector rather than player - just to be clear if someone is measuring to my Raider/Ravager hull they could use a spear tip of one of the mounted Drukhari to class that as LoS/range?? seems insane haha
Yes, but you can also use that spear tip to shoot from. That means if they can see you you can see them.
So just for clarification, in the “Measurement Madness” portion you would need to draw line of sight to the further distance because the Knight was not fully in the terrain?
By the time I get my head around main rules, the next FAQ or edition comes out and changes everything
Edition rollovers are the devil
You say abilities like Brotherhood Librarian are rare…but that’s how Grenades work too…which is pretty common. I’ve often had to throw grenades thru a wall when the model I move out to get LOS to the other unit is like 12-16” away. So either that one guy is suddenly a major league pitcher able to throw twice as far, or he’s yelling to the guy closer but obstructed…little to the left….lot it Carl!!
If one model in a unit is within range of an enemy but the rest of the models in said unit are strung back and out of range, do all models in that unit still get to shoot?
How do you measure LoS to a Triarch Stalker? It does not come with a base and some players pose its legs so it looks more dynamic (Not me). Howwever the Front Legs are huge. Their have high knees and the legs extend outward no matter how much you push them inwards.
Also, I just watched a video that said if a unit containing multiple infantry models is trying to target another unit of several infantry. However, if one of your models is not able to see the same unit, your entire unit is unable to target and shoot your opponent's unit despite the fact all of them have visibility to the same unit accept your one dude that is in a ruin which is also behind an obstructing terrain piece.
Refarding another issue, sometimes I come across players who are shocked that i get to shoot and deal multiple attacks if my entire unit can draw LoS to just one member of his unit of 20 Warriors while the other 19 are behind a building. I simultaneously roll all my shooting attacks against the one visible Warrior and if I successfully deal10 wounds, his entire unit has to make saving throws vs 10 wounds. He assumed that by allocating the first successful wound which ends up destroying his one visible model will prevent the 9 remaining hits will prevent any further damage to his Warriors which is not correct. Since my unit is using the same ranged weapon everything is simultaneously and does not prevent the fact that damage still needs to be resolved vs his entire unit despite I could only see one infanty model in his unit. Even I was thrown off by tgat rule when i started 9th edition.
However, 10th edition has some pretty dumb and complicated LoS rules which I feel like where unattended and GW doesn't want to reword the rules for LoS and ranged attacks.
What ever happened to Simple, but not simple? Or maybe this is what they meant by Simple but not?
1. You measure true line of sight to the closest point on the Stalker. For the purposes of this rule, all parts of the stalker become its "hull", so measuring to the closest tip of an outstretched leg is valid.
2. This is incorrect. Units have line of sight to each other as long as one model of unit A is visible to any model in unit B. For determining eligible targets for attacks, it's done using each model. So in your example, if all but one model in your attacking unit can see at least one of the enemy models in the target unit, all of them but one can shoot that unit.
3. Your opponent is incorrect here. All of the units attacks are allocated at once, even if only a single enemy model is visible. This means you get to roll the attacks and he has to roll the saves even if the first model pulled from failed saves is the only visible model. This likewise applies to melee combat. If you have multiple melee profiles in your attacking unit, your opponent can pull models in such a way that the units are no longer in engagement range, but you still get to roll all of the melee attacks for your unit.
The video you watched about attack targetting may have been referring to cover? Most terrain features give cover to models if the entire attacking unit doesn't have LOS to them, which will automatically apply if any of the attackers can't see them. Might be worth a second look.
Also yeah, Triarch Stalkers measure and draw LOS to anywhere on the model - posing the legs differently can shrink/enlarge their footprint.
Might look into those adhesive magnets, not sure I'm needing anti glare.
10:55 The rules excerpt screenshotted here is out of date -- towering was removed from the exceptions. (Not disagreeing with anything actually stated in the video, just noting in case anyone sees it and thinks Towering still ignores the obstructions like Aircraft)
Whenever I think about playing current 40k I always come back to this channel to remember why I fuckin stopped 😅😅
I’m confused in the example of the daemon prince and the termagaunts, the closest termagaunt is wholly within a ruin, does that not make him visible? Don’t the rules state models can see into and out of the ruin as normal if the model is wholly within the ruin? Or does the fact that not all the termagaunts are within the same ruin mean they’re not visible?
And same with the daemon prince and the knight, is the daemon prince not wholly within the ruin? So is he not visible regardless of height of the wall and whether the infantry could see him? So much confusion
Units within ruins can be seen as normal; which means that the normal LOS rules apply (the model has visibility if there is any unbroken line between them). If true LOS is blocked to a model you still can't see it.
Check out my terrain video for more stuff about ruins: ruclips.net/video/1OfqjO28Uss/видео.html
@@TacticalTortoise thanks 🙏🏽 I get it now, I for some reason didn’t realize true line of sight overrode the ruin rules. But makes sense. Your videos are awesome and you’re very good at breaking down all the nuances of rules. Keep up the amazing work!
@@Ryan-wf7shHappy to help! ;)
The thing about the LOS and distance also applies to the grenade Strat it seems?
Yep! I even talk about it in my video about Grenades: ruclips.net/video/YqDOR2ZAiTk/видео.htmlsi=nCzmv5qlID7_f97w
If a model has partial cover can a vehicle shoot at it ?
Yep; they'll just have cover
How does line of sight work with "overwatch"?
A unit start out of line of sight (behind building)
Then moves in line of sight and end up behind a building to block line of sight?
My friend was claiming that I could not shoot him. Cause he started and ended out of line of sight.
You can shoot him while he’s in LOS, to get out of LOS he had to go thru LOS hence you can over watch
Thank you! This was very informative… if a bit frustrating 😅
So what Iearned is that 40k is in need of a complete rules rewrite. Good to know.
10 times already
Thank you this was much needed
Glad it was helpful!
say you have a unit with differant guns and one of those guns is completely behind a wall can it shoot what the rest of the unit sees?
Nope; each model draws LOS and range independently.
I play casual and most of the stuff apart from base to base and cover/ruins seems really unintuitive tbh
Why the hell would keep the legacy usage of the word hull in your game...like of course we're gonna assume the literal hull
Thanks for the clarification 😊
Anyone know how high off an objective you can be and still contribute OC? Ex. 2 to 3 story ruins over objective
5"
Wait a minute.
So if a player wants to shoot his Stormraven Gunship (aircraft keyword) he would have to measure LOS from the base? And NOT the outstretched wings?
If it is not in Hover Mode, yeah.
Once it hovers it's no longer aircraft so the commentary entry doesn't apply (see my Aircraft vid)
Errr sorry
missed you were talking about LOS - that's ALWAYS hull, but measurement changes based on whether it's hovering or not
Base to base is the only way to do LoS rules right. Shooting the tips of tentacles and gun barrels peeking out of cover is just stupid.
Awesome sponsor! I can’t wait for their base magnets!
Hear hear!
Base-based LOS rules would be SO much better omg
@@TacticalTortoise My friends and I house rule base-to-base LOS (except vehicles with massive overhangs) and it really is so much better
@@Birri919 sounds amazing - crossing my fingers GW figures it out soon xD
How does a units height factor in with base to base measurement? I only started playing tabletop wargames with 10th edition so am not sure how it would work.
Also high ground. Even a slight height advantage would hide the base behind the terrain even if a lot of the model was visible still.
Great video man thanks 🙌
Lone of sight have always been the jankiest part of 40k rules
What if I see only 1 model of a squad of let's say 5 models. This squad just wanted to avoid getting damaged and only score missions. They are behind a ruin and I just moved there so that I can see at least one model. But as said, I can only see 1/5. Can I attack all the other models / whole squad? Are the remaining attacks getting counted and applied? So does the defender then has to distribute the remaining attacks / damage to the others models which technically can't be seen anymore. OR can I only kill that 1 model and that's it?
The butt threw me off.... i can rest now lol
I'm sorry to hear that - you should be allowed to stay on that butt for as long as you want 😉
So this is something that I've learned recently. I've had opponents who have toe'd into terrain piece with something like a big vehicle in order to "see through" that terrain piece, and as it turns out, this isn't allowed if that big vehicle isn't wholly within the terrain feature. Page 14 of the rules commentary has a good figure for this.
These rules are so bad. So many things are abstract, which isnt automatically bad, but the action is still so clunky that it shows james workshop has no idea what fun is supposed to look or sound like
If it upsets you that bad.... Play a different game. There are so many out there, and they all have different rules/mechanics.
In fact, I play about 8 different games with my Warhammer models, Warhammer and 7 different model agnostic games.
As a newbie (I've played like three matches), this is honestly the most off putting aspect of the rules so far.
I should not need a PHD to understand the rules of a game.
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