Why Scale Creep Is a Good Thing
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 фев 2022
- 💨 FART QUEST Series:
geni.us/uz5ybt (Amazon)
💨 FART QUEST - THE GAME - A combination of board game and proper D&D-style RPG, and a great intro to Dungeons & Dragons: read.macmillan.com/mcpg/fart-...
💨 DICE HEADS TRIBE
www.myminifactory.com/users/D...
DICE HEADS PATREON
/ diceheads
- KNARB MAKES 10MM Extravaganza: • You're playing D&D at ...
___________________
👉Scale creep can be controversial - but I think it's actually a good thing. Here's why.
⚠️ Pick up Late Pledges:
👕MERCH: 3d-printed-tabletop.creator-s...
✨Essential Equipment List:
🏆 Become a Patron:
Models Shown In This Video From:
👉Vae Victis Miniatures: / vaevictisminiatures
👉Bite The Bullet: / bitethebullet
👉Miniac Mini Menagerie Kickstarter: 3dpt.me/miniac
👉Dice Heads: www.myminifactory.com/users/D...
🧴Phrozen Aqua 4K Resin: geni.us/v0S9o (Amazon)
🖨️Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K: geni.us/AMaB (Amazon)
🧴Phrozen Aqua 8K Resin: phrozen3d.com/collections/3d-...
🖨️Phrozen Sonic Mini 8K - phrozen3d.com/products/phroze...
___________________________
🔔SUBSCRIBE: ruclips.net/user/3DPrintedta...
➟ GET STARTED 3D PRINTING MINIATURES & TERRAIN: • Printing The Game - Ge...
✌ Currently Printing On:
Resin - Elegoo Mars 2 Pro: geni.us/nJm3 (Amazon)
Resin - Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K - geni.us/YgYpC (Amazon)
Resin - Elegoo Mercury Plus - Cure & Wash Station - geni.us/0odsm (Amazon)
FDM - Creality Ender 3 v2 - geni.us/eUurf (Amazon)
FDM - Creality CR-10 v2 - geni.us/sL8q (Amazon)
FDM - Lottmax SC-10 - geni.us/yIDcjNE (Amazon)
Filament/Resin I Use:
FDM - eSun PLA+ Gray - geni.us/pV52 (Amazon)
FDM - eSun PLA+ Brown - geni.us/lrFu (Amazon)
Resin - EPAX Hard Gray - geni.us/xX0V85 (Amazon)
Resin - Elegoo Gray - geni.us/wjCmBVj (Amazon)
Cure & Wash Station: geni.us/0odsm (Amazon)
Slap Mats for Resin: geni.us/g51AJis (Amazon)
✂️Supplies I used often:
Mini & Model File Set - geni.us/gXwW (Amazon)
Rustoleum 2X Flat White Primer - geni.us/OIgu (Amazon)
Cheap Brush Set - geni.us/WjwsCt (Amazon)
Dikale Gray PLA - geni.us/ZgYA (Amazon)
Citadel Choose 5 Paints - geni.us/foEZg (Amazon)
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
Игры
I think this video mostly defends the idea that "bigger scales are better" rather than the specific issue of scale creep, which has it's own problems with backwards compatibility and company policies. I also think it's worth pointing out that scale creep can be a lot worse in wargames than RPGs, where old models can be made illegal and redesigns can end up being boosted in power to push sales.
This is very true. He is just advocating larger scales are better. Scale creep actually refers to miniatures getting bigger WITHIN the same scale. So when GW makes their "28mm" regular human over 32mm to the eyes, that is scale creep. They didn't change the game to suddenly be 32mm. That is a big problem as it creates manufactured obsolescence.
My old carnifex model still cries with his freaky 4 claw mouth.. but hes dmaller so i ise him to escape LoS :)
@@actualwafflesenjoyer are you still allowed to play with marines on 25mm bases? I haven't played a modern GW game since 6th edition 40k. GW manufactures obsolescence into their rules where the new hotness is almost always OP for whatever edition it comes out in. then gets nerfed to hell the next edition.
@@HeadCannonPrime yup, 25mm base marines are playable even along side primaris and idk if they are very viable but they seem to be according to auspex tactics
Yeah that is the video I was expecting! Thank you!
With rise of 3D printing I see more reason for slightly larger scales often being less fragile and easy to print. But my big concern with scale creep is scenery. If you like having lots of scenery then either the models looks too big/won’t fit in/with the scenery, or you make the scenery bigger and you just can’t fit enough of your town/dungeon/castle/forest/etc on your table.
Its exactly the opposite actually. SMALLER scale is easier to paint because you DON'T actually have paint all the details! Switch to 10-15mm and you will never paint eyes again.
That is fair, but I like the balance of more detail to be honest. You can paint to a lower tabletop standard with the smaller minis, and I think 10mm would be better if you just wanted quick and dirty simpler representation on the table for sure.
@@3DPrintedTabletop As a wargame player I prefer more spectacle on the board. What looks cooler, a unit of 25 guys with spears representing a whole army or literally 250 guys?
@@HeadCannonPrime These recent huge, super detailed minis are designed to look good on zoomed in photos (in online shops, on competition photos), but entire armies of them tend to turn into chaotic mass of details.
@@HeadCannonPrime 250,000 GUYS!!! THINK OF THE BOOOOOOOOOOIS!
I disagree because I find the slightly larger scale easier and more enjoyable to paint. FYI at 32-35mm scale you don’t need to paint the eyes either, I don’t, and I could not care less about the eyes. Eyes neither break or make a model, but the awesome details do.
I get what you're saying and you're certainly correct. But the thing is, your perspective is from that of the hobbyist or DnD player. From the perspective of the wargamer, scale creep is a problem. 40k with lots of vehicles or terrain is already really cumbersome.
I appreciate the perspective and comment! I get advocating for realistic scales for terrain and such would be a much bigger sell, but with such big tables, would a few MM on the same base sizes really make a big difference if the game's rules don't rely on LOS very much?
@@3DPrintedTabletop Are tables getting bigger too?
@@3DPrintedTabletop Well, the base sizes aren't the same. If you look at Warhammer in 1984, back when 25mm was the standard, the standard base size was 20mm. If you look at the 1990's, because of scale creep, 25mm became the standard base size. And these days, the standard base size is even larger, and for understandable reasons. I mean, you 3D print, so you probably already realize that scaling is never only in one dimension. It's in three dimensions. Take a 25mm miniature, that is 25mm high, and fits on a 20mm base. Scale that up to 28mm, and the miniature won't fit on a 20mm base anymore. It'll have to be at least 22.4mm to fit the 28mm scale up. Now take that to 32mm. It won't even fit on a 25mm base at that scale, because the same sculpt is going to need a base that's greater than 25.6mm. It isn't just scale creep. It might be more illustrative to call it volume creep. If I have a soldier in 25mm on a 20mm base, that's 7854 cubic mm. That same soldier in 32mm will be 16215 cubic mm, or more than twice the size. Twice the size means that the distances are doubled, and the same table is now half as wide and half as long as the same game played in 25mm.
I think having a bigger mini for your character is cool as a reference but in actual play I like the idea of smaller scale much better (for many of the reasons on Knarb's channel)
This blatantly ignores what it can do to wargaming ranges. Bigger scale is nice for painters obviously but many only get and paint minis to play games with them, and at least the way GW is handling it by shoe-horning in lore excuses for the scale creep and treating them like their own subfaction, will lead to many collections being considered illegal eventually.
Also bigger does not mean easier to paint. Sure picking out individual smaller details is easier, but there's so many more of them it presents the new challenge of actually painting all of them. Many don't enjoy newer GW mini's because they have so many small fiddly bits. Also, that's more open space for newer painters to figure out what to do with, while getting your highlights looking good even in open areas is pretty easy on smaller minis.
Not arguing for smaller scale or against bigger ones, just saying this video seems kind of unfair and ignores the flaws of larger minis and scale-creeping, at least when it comes to wargames.
It can definitely have an effect on competitive brackets and games where LOS is a factor, but there are many wargames that are much more base-centric (like 40K at the moment). Many mini-agnostic wargames like Stargrave just need all the minis to be a consistent scale.
At the end of a day, a model company, such as GW or anyone has to sell minis. If old collectors don't buy new ones anymore because they "have them" then their losing sales. You see it in every company. Old models always get phased out eventually or become purely collection pieces. Their always welcome in friend games though.
Based on sales data I say that there are many more people who like the new GW minis that the many people you mention that don’t. If the people who don’t like the new minis are not buying them then those people are not GW’s target market. GW needs people who buy minis and if a group of people don’t want to GW is ok with that, because they are only interested in the group of people who do want to buy them. There is nothing wrong with either group of people. Those who like the new minis will buy them and those who don’t won’t. Perhaps the people who don’t like them will find other manufacturers to buy from and perhaps they won’t, either way it is no one’s problem but the people who don’t like them.
There's one issue you didn't focus on, consistency. I don't mind scale creep, but I got back into 40k after a while and now none of my old marines look right next to the new ones. Expanding my existing army with Primaris feels odd. If the scale creep were for a new faction, that wouldn't be as bad, similar to having mixed scales in D&D. But having mixed scales in what is supposed to be a uniform army doesn't work for me.
I am taking the stance against bigger models.
The one thing not touched on is storage.
The bigger the miniatures become, the bigger the storage is to try to accommodate these, not to mention if you have to transport them to a club or event you want to use them at.
Add that in the against pile for bigger miniatures.
And I agree with the below comments where the bigger more complicated models appeals to the painters out there more then the wargamers.
Many people outside North America do not have large spaces they live in.
Outside of a hobby store or a local club they play on smaller tables, bigger miniatures eat up that much more space on a small board that you would like to have some interesting terrain on.
Dovetailing into the above statement this also means your terrain is going to have to be bigger to account for the bigger miniatures.
Which then means you need even more storage/places to put this larger terrain.
Your arguments in regards to RPG's are valid and I have no objection to those.
But when it comes to wargaming, such as 40K, that opens up all the worms I touched on above and many others have touched on.
RPG's and wargaming is not an apples to apples comparison and a clear line should be drawn between them.
Someone else mentioned about size in a unit.
I want constancy when I field my armies, where the units or more or less a similar size.
If I am playing Humans and my opponent is playing humans, they should be relatively close in size to each other (especially if the wargame is based on Medieval or Renaissance times when Humans were generally shorter then what you have today).
If I field a unit of 25MM and 32MM you are really going to notice the difference.
I could also make the argument that scale creep is a really bad thing and a de facto standard should be used.
A good example of that outside of wargaming is with Model trains, in that people agreed that a HO scale (1/87th) model for example would be this scale and this height and everything should be based on this set of standards. You did not have manufactures making 1/86th scale or 1/88th scale models and claiming they were HO scale.
It just looks odd and out of place the more you mix these scales where you eye notices something wrong, but is not quite sure what it is rather that is in a army or in the case of a model train going down the tracks.
Touching on scale something that could really work against the hobby as a whole is having 25mm, 28mm, 32mm and 35mm scale miniatures.
Someone new who comes into the hobby to play a fantasy wargame is going to be awfully confused by which scale is the most popular or even worse where one system uses 32mm (which is what GW is running towards) and another uses 28mm.
The sooner a standard is agreed upon, the better for all involved.
This does not prevent us having multiple standards just like model trains have multiple scales, what it does do is make sure more cross compatibility and more choice is given to the customer. And I for one prefer that we have more choices.
If we go the standards route, 28mm could be one standard and 40mm could be another standard.
Then we have the smaller scales such as 6mm and 10mm and 15mm, this would be a win for everyone and not lead to additional confusion and possibly off put someone new to the hobby.
Those are my thoughts on it.
Honestly, as I get older, I look at more smaller scale stuff. Currently printing a boatload of forest dragon 10 mm #definitelynotwarmaster. They arent too hard to paint effectively, and a massive army looks sooo good on the table
So, you uhhh, want one of those magnifying headsets?
Um...what? OF COURSE!
Most of the Terrain I print is in the 25-28mm scale.
The more scaling up that happens the more things I will have to reprint to make them usable. Especially gridded smaller items like houses, towers etc.
Plus I already have thousands of early 2000s D&D Pre-painted Plastic minis that would look out grossly out of proportion.
When Halfings start being taller than Humans you have problems.
I just felt like pointing out the change in detail probably has less to do with scale/size but in the fact that modern minis are “sculpted” on computer and their molds as laser etched rather than being pressed from a master model that was hand sculpted
Scale creep isn't good, and you keep conflating creep with actual scale change.
I'd be curious to see a comparison of a few minis printed at differing scales, especially focusing on how it difficult would be to clean up the scarring from larger supports vs defects from having smaller supports.
I'm sorry, i'm with Knarb on this one, at least for playing. For painting though, you can even go all the way up to 75mm!
75mm Why would you limit yourself to so small for a painted piece 😈
Also, I don't think an argument between 15, 10, or 6 mm against 32 is really a scale creep issue. It's got much more to do with storage, game board size, cost, etc. than just models getting bigger. There is no scale creep from those small scales to my knowledge unless we're talking about Epic being turned into the Apocalypse cash cow. I don't think there's another example. I see more of the reverse. People play Kings of War in 15mm, not least because of the portability for tournaments.
Storage is something I hadn’t considered - and absolutely skews towards 10mm. It’s a huge advantage. Thanks for bringing it up!
direct scaling is an issue ive dealt with in starships and there are arguments for both fleet scale and capital ship scale have good arguments to them. while painting is basically the same with both its a question of your play area. you can field a ton of ships in a smaller play area with fleet scale.
All these beautiful minis make me want a resin printer so bad.
As a painter, I love the upscale, but at a DM with limited board space, the bigger sculpts can cause a problem. Great video with the subject clearly presented with pros and cons. Keep up the fantastic content.
Thank you for the introduction to Fart Quest! I just went through the previews available on Amazon and it looks absolutely hilarious!!
Bigger scales are not better just different. If you think bigger models always look better I encourage you to look up Forest Dragons Stls. Small scale and absolutely gorgeous models. And a table absolutely full of tiny goblins and elves is so dang cool.
I enjoy painting and much prefer a 28-36mm scale. But there are a few issues that it causes too, and smaller scales have some benefits.
*Benefits of 28-36mm scales:*
Overall allows for more personality and compelling detail.
More room to paint = easier for beginners or more room to nuance for experts (but could have problem of _needing_ nuanced if the next item is lacking)
More space for interesting details in the model itself (deeper layers of complexity).
Larger, so easier to see across a table, doubly so for remote players.
Thick enough to allow for deeper detail (easier to paint)
Bigger allows for more contrast between sizes of models and parts of those models (eg thin bowstring)
Which allows for more true life-like dimensions or more exaggerated dimensions, whichever is your fancy.
Easier to add things like led's.
Enough weight to stay in place better when someone bumps the gaming table
*Smaller scale models:*
Take up less table space (print those maps at a smaller scale and save on printing supplies too)
(within reason) Much faster to paint a large batch to an ok level.
Much faster to print and less resin, both in model size and supports.
Operate more in impression, so can often get away without very many details and badly painted and still be ok for playing purposes.
Easy to bulk transport (especially when you consider terrain and scatter!)
May be more fragile, but may survive a table drop by being light enough. (larger models have mass and likely tiny bits sticking out to break).
Much less design work for models in that there isn't room for as much detail.
Don't carry the same expectation for dynamic poses as larger models (simpler is acceptable and also means groupings fit together more easily)
Much easier to hide in the Christmas tree, because you grew up insisting on secreting legos into the tree decorations despite your mom's protestations that this was supposed to be the "fancy tree" year.
As a final note: I have found that GM's like using physical characteristics of players models as ques making them aspects of the game, and the players like that too. Larger models have more stuff that the GM can use that way.
"Long red hair and swords hanging from your back -I can see you're not from around. If you're interested, I've got some coins for someone not bound in fealty to our grand royal pompous __"...
I just started 3d printing love your videos
Why can't we just have both? With 3d printing, there's a lot less of a financial hit in having duplicate minis in 15mm for, say, wilderness encounters and cooler looking 35mm or even 54mm minis for the dungeon.
Haven't painted minis before but I did have some experience painting those 1/144 RG pilot figures (those are like 1cm tall). I strained my eyes real bad after a few of them. Definitely feel that a larger scale is better, at least for painting, but you would need to do more shading in order to fill in that extra space which I don't have the skill for yet.
You made an excellent argument for why moving to a larger scale might be a good idea (I've been considering printing some minis in 44mm scale and using a 2" grid battle mat to restore the classic 22mm 1" battle mat proportionality and gain detail even beyond the 32mm that the 22 has crept to over the last 20 years). Of course, this would halve the max size of maps, but the scale remains accurate, with nothing spilling out of its square and you could even fit multiple figures in a square just like you could back at 22mm.) but not much of a defense of creep. Creep just breaks the relationship between the figures, the mat, and everything else.
I think as long as you get the mini to fit onto an appropriate sized base so it fits on battle maps with 1 inch squares, you are golden. I know it's less important for wargaming, but still :P
I'm with ya Velrock!
Agreed, and now a hobbyist can be penalized for modeling the model in extravagant ways due to LOS.
@@angrybadgerminis3077 forgive the gamer in me, but LOS means "line of sight" to me, which I'm sure is not what you are saying. Mind if I ask what that stands for? :P
@@velrockartminiatures That's exactly what I meant. :)
@@angrybadgerminis3077 oh it took me a minute to understand, but I think I get what you are saying. You are talking about line of sight in wargames yes?
LoL, GW doesn't make models big to charge more. They raise prices on 20 or 30 year old models regularly, regardless of size. They make giant monsters with intricate pieces to try to stay at the top of the pack for plastics. That way, yes, they can charge more. But it's nothing to do with scale creep. They just raise prices as soon as they think the market can bear it.
I agree (like I said: my comments section isn’t unanimous about this though :D)
Smaller scales allows people in to the hobby aswell they can by more for less, experiment with diffrent armies for less , less space for terrain and general storage also great for traveling to shop or tourneys, more epic feeling, less detail need to paint Slap on the contrast! I've started as a 28mm high elfplayer, now I'm skirmishing and war gaming and 3d printing in 10 and 15mm, more fits on the build plate so less cleaning and such
I kinda more on "small scale is better" side, cause you can go for rich scenery without sacrificing your living room for storage area.
Plus, it's easier to carry around.
More tactical approach to combat is kinda just a nice addition.
Although i would have to carry around a set of tweezers and magnifying glasses if i use this scale.
Dunno if i would wanna go 6mm or 10-15mm tho.
6mm sounds like too small, but also allows you to fit entire towns on battlemaps (scenery and all).
Also, an interesting note about supports is that smaller models are much much lighter (decreasing size by half decreases weight by three fourths and all), so even light autosupports might work at low scale.
As for people with health problems... that is actually a valid point. Although i suppose that it could be done with assistance from other players, it would rob some of that enjoyment.
It seems like scale bigger scale is more convenient to play with and focuses on personal details of characters, while lower scale is more convenient to carry around or store and focuses more on grand scope of things.
Like, plopping down that giant Tiamat mini on a 6mm scale would make Tiamat be tall like a sky-scraper, truly conveying the "this is a god-like being" feel.
Pretty sure there was an interview where they expressed that they wanted to do Marines in a more true scale for the lore, but feared no one would buy them so they contrived all the primaris BS, if you do the conversions for the size, the pirmaris are around 1/2 a mm shy of being their proper height or a normal space marine at that size (7.5 - 8ft, at 28mm size)
I would’ve been fine with a regular space marine scaled up bigger (maybe with slightly bigger proportions to compensate) to be honest. I’d love to read that article/interview if you find it!
When you don't notice autoplay started this after Knarb's 1/60 scale video and you wonder if you're having a stroke.
What this video has taught me is that I should only buy 6 mm 3d sculpt files.
I'm glad there are different scales available, especially for wargaming. Sometimes you want a platoon on platoon scale action, sometime you want to show the hex and counter folks how amazingly awesome a modeled division looks.
My biggest thought on the matter is.. Why not both? This is something I've thought for a while. Knarb makes a good argument that certain scenes work best at small scales. Cities, large battles, etc all are fantastic use of very distance, and in turn work best when the minis are tiny. BUT when you're doing smaller stuff, dungeon crawling, spaces where you -don't- need to have such a zoomed out perspective of things? Larger minis work better. If a fight is only realistically taking place in a single room or in some spaces adjacent, it doesn't need to be so tiny that you can see the entire dungeon laid out in its entirety.
So, the idea of larger for details is great, but not everyone has the ability to play a game on the living room floor and larger scale means the scale of the game's ranges, movement and need of space comes in to account. Not everyone plays at the larger scales, yet all we see out there being pushed are the 15mm and bigger scale. Myself, I like the 6mm to 10mm scale and having limited space means I get more for my buck and more out of the 3d printing.
I’ve watched both videos and here is my 2¢ . Larger minis are great if you are doing say a dungeon or a small enclosed place , but the second you are outside and you have monsters like a dragon who already had crazy range of movement (2 ft at the base 1 square =5 foot) now by upscaling his even more crazy by Having an even larger distance it can travel and wreak havoc.
So larger for indoors smaller for outdoors basically
I am going from 32/28mm to a smaller scale for my skirmish and wargaming games. Lots of 3D printable minis and terrain in my to do list. I save a lot of material when printing at smaller scale, also space is an issue. Which means I can have more minis and terrain for a variety of game settings.
YES!!! I have scaled up to I think 1:35 scale. Or there abouts. Unfortunately it is the most common for model military vehicles- so purchasing at the scale can be frustrating for anything fantasy. (husband has a 3d printer luckily.) This scale still works with a lot of the terrain supplies still, but also makes scratch bashing/building easier for diorama's.
I do think it a little odd that there isn't more overlap or companies serving not only the ttrpg community, but diorama-ists, and doll house makers. We are all doing the same things, just at slightly different scales. I just think with more competition (which tends to bring cheaper prices) could open up more people into the communities- regardless of purpose of the project (ttrpg, versus art, etc.). I am in favor of sizing up. I already have.
Like many others have said, my main problem with scale creep is just that it's different from all the hundreds of other models I've already printed and painstakingly painted. Some variation in size is okay on the D&D map, but my original player minis are always tiny tiny compared to the huge 32mm models with flamboyant poses. Also my terrain that I've spent hundreds of hours on making, looks all wrong - tiny tables, doorways that look like kindergarden play sets. So I keep scaling down...
Question though: in Lychee, when you open a Patreon's actual Lychee file and downscale that - the actual supports aren't smaller right? The thickness and tip size stay the same, but the danger is that the supports go all wonky and appear inside the model.
I think it also depends higly on the played game. I play mostly 9thage/warhammer fantasy and there is nothing worse than having 30 models of 28mm scale and then a set of blow up aos models together in one unit. It just looks bad when you want a coherent regiment or squad of models. I guess on a dnd table it is perfectly fine because better and bigger monsters feel natural, as they stand on their own. But mixing and matching in an army that you paint for a year or two just hurts my heart.
Also a bigger model is also not always easier to paint, I would actually argue that it is the other way around (unless you go 10 or 6mm). But when you have a 72mm model you kind of can not getaway with just a white and black dot for the eyes. Also the bigger the model the worse stuff like washes or contrast paints look. Washes and contrast paints is what makes the entry easy, not the possibility to paint more details because on a bigger model you can actually see them. You could argue that painting eyes is not needed on 10 or 25mm but the bigger you get the more details you have to paint.
So no, in my opinion it hurts the coherency of an army but is mostly fine for dnd. And bigger does not equal easier to paint, rather the contrary.
Why not do both larger and smaller?
So, have one half of the map at a small scale to show a few hundred in-game feet across, a "zoomed out" view, then on the other side, you can have a larger scale "zoomed in" view.
This lets you see a larger area and track creatures at greater distances which will mostly be ranged combat, while also being able to see larger minis of the PCs and the melee situation much better.
For example, you might have the party fighting goblins in melee on the large scale side, while tracking the goblin archers firing from distant positions on the small scale side.
With two feet of space, one square foot can be 1"=60', then the other three squares of 1' wide can be 1"=5' and show the zoomed in view of particular spaces on the zoomed area. This can be particularly distinguished by using red, green, and blue square tokens on the zoomed out map to show which squares the zoomed in zoomed in maps are showing, while the zoomed in maps have borders and maybe even the gridlines, in their color. And which each zoomed out square being 60', that is one round of double movement for standard characters in dnd, making it easy to track movement on both scales.
If I ever go back to fantasy or sci-fi wargaming, I'm going 15mm. And the reasons are easy to understand: I can get larger regiments on the table, more vehicles and war engines, and better tactics playing in 15mm than I would in 32mm. It isn't a matter of detail or intricacies any more than comparing the detail and intricacies of an O-scale train layout to an N-scale train layout.
Yeah, I don't think that bigger miniatures are necessarily easier to paint, quite the contrary: with bigger miniatures you'll generally have more details to paint, and since everything will be more visible, you essentially have less margin of error, because any mistake will be certainly easier to spot from a distance. Also, because of that you will find yourself feeling the need to actually paint on a higher standard, since everything is so much easier to see, on a smaller scale you not only don't need to go crazy on the details, but you might be actually better off with simpler paint jobs.
All of those things together will end leading to super long painting sessions when compared to smaller scaless, which, depending on what you're painting can be very frustrating.
Also there's another thing: spaaaaace, especially regarding terrain and boards. With a 10mm or 15mm scale you can just essentially play big 40k games on a Kill Team board (given the proper adjustments to range and movement), and the terrain will be much easier and faster to make and paint whether you're scratch building, printing or buying premade stuff (and much easier to store too!). Luke from Geek Gaming Scenics made a great video talking about the subject.
So yeah, in the end I do agree that there cases for both sizes, and I do agree that the primaris look waaaaay better than the firstborn, but more because of their poses than their actual size. Maybe the better option for an apartment dweller is using 28/32mm minis and terrain for small skirmish games and TRPGs, and leaving the small scale minis for the bigger army games.
Also ignore table size
Scale go up
If you keep the map size the same
You entire play area becomes bigger
Not everybody have unlimited space
Terrain needs to get bigger too
Multilevel structures can get real annoying
And base sizes, as well ignored in the video. You can remove the mini from the base. Sure. Then why use it in the first place, if its a non requeriment.
Scale going up appeal for those who are into painting, of course
I think the main points go mini's is to get a quick easy way to see what's happening and to increase immersion.
Whatever size works for that, based on your priorities for each, is the best scale.
I do like slightly larger than standard mini's. But totally understand the desire for other sizes.
Honestly if Primaris weren't treated like the new faction that completely replaces the current Space Marines also invalidating them in every way, and just were BIGGER MODELS WITH A THE NEXT ARMOUR TYPE, all this would have been 10000 times better. This VERY MUCH isn't about just the bigger scale.
I really really like the idea of going smaller for RPGs I'm on KNARB MAKES side for this
As a gamer since the ‘70s, I am firmly in the bigger camp. I like the better detail and ease of painting at a higher quality. I occasionally pull out an old lead 25mm from my pile of shame, then put it right back. Too hard to paint to my standard.
While I agree with virtually all of your points, I think you slipped up by implying that scale creep is categorically better, full stop. Larger scales have their benefits, to be sure, but they also have considerable detriments, which shouldn't be ignored. On the one hand, they're easier to paint, have lots of nice details, and make a much larger impact on the tabletop. On the other hand, they take longer to paint, can take more work to make look good, and take more space--_especially_ if you account for terrain.
As well, you overlook an important distinction between "larger scale" and "scale creep." Larger scale is perfectly fine on its own--scale creep is when a model range starts off in one scale, then slowly transitions to a larger scale. Sure, the new scale might have its benefits, but it makes older, un-updated minis look silly by comparison.
All the same, I do want to emphasize that you make good points, especially about how larger scales can be more welcoming to new members in the hobby. I just think it's important to recognize that it's not quite black-and-white. :)
Remember Inquisitor? That was like…54mm? At that scale you can use a bucket-o-army men and have 100 minis for under $20. The plastic may not be the best but the sculpts are pretty good.
I will address one of the elephants in the room. Where did you score the STL of Scott's Elf Warrior?
Copy/pasted from another comment :) I've been helping Scott out with the KS for several months and printed out a scaled down version to push the limits of the Sonic Mini 8K printer I'm reviewing and see what I could get out of it. Was pretty impressed, and dang...it was a difficult paint :D
myself i tend to print most of my models out to 100mm as i use them more as display models. and have no problems with miniatures increasing in size as you say it makes them more easy to paint and can go to town on the details. for gaming i tend to upsize stuff to 50mm scale for my 3d prints.
I like the idea of smaller minis for practical reasons, but seeing big epic miniatures is also nice
The creep in size of minis sure makes them easier to paint, BUT on the table, in the middle of a battle, I don't want a diorama - and that includes anything professionally based to look like the figure is toting around its own biome, a mini diorama. That makes the figs a mismatch for the setting, the buildings. Skirmishing = 1/60th (5mm = 1 ft; 25mm = 5ft. Using skirmishing scale you are advocating a complete mismatch between the figs and the setting. The players get a FALSE sense of the spatial relationships between the characters and between the characters and the setting features. The PLAY is the thing!\\ I couldn't care less if they are easier to paint - that's the tail wagging the dog.
Great stuff friend 👏 👍
I have many thousands of minis most are 28mm, and I can't see how I would be able to store my minis if they were any bigger. I also do a lot of war games were we play with hundreds of troops on either side, and bigger models would not allow that.
What are your settings for printing in fdm machines
If you double the size of the Games Workshop miniature, you can play their Inquisitor game!
I scale most my Cyberforge (Titanforge) up by 20%, the models goes from 32mm total height to around 40-45mm depending on the mini! This makes a MAJOR difference to me, and the "brittle parts" also get more sturdy :D
how do you have miniacs wood elf? i knew there was a secret society with all you minitubers!!
I've been helping Scott out with the KS for several months and printed out a scaled down version to push the limits of the Sonic Mini 8K printer I'm reviewing and see what I could get out of it. Was pretty impressed, and dang...it was a difficult paint :D
@@3DPrintedTabletop you gotta show that sometime soon!
“They’re easier to paint” translates to me as “I am very new to painting miniatures and have never painted any older ones”.
Obviously that is not that case here. Just saying - it makes that little sense. I was waiting for the ball to drop when they said at the start “easier to paint … AND more detail” … but it never did.
Bigger, more detailed miniatures are NOT “easier to paint”. The detail is actually even more intricate and the the computer generated sculpts make it harder to reach lots of places.
They’re not just not harder to paint, they take WAY longer.
Painting an old school 90s model after a modern one is like a relaxing breath of fresh air.
this is a bit ot but could you please tell me how the ultramarine reiver was painted? I like that scheme.
100% agree with you on this. Iove the details on Loot Studios minis but I hate printing them because they are so small and the support removel is a nightmare! Also yeah its way to hard to paint something that small
I usually scale up my loot minis by 10% before I print them at 32mm, they almost always still fit on their bases(without scaling those up) but you can crank out some extra detail and a little more room room for painting
Got into 3D printing using an Ender 3 to print DnD minis. Realized a little late I was printing my minis slightly larger than the recommended scale... But I think a tad bigger is better. 32mm is better.
No idea scale creep was a thing. Here for another banger of a video
It’s because those awesome toys you always get come in all shapes and sizes :D
54mm is a nice tabletop scale. GW Inquisitor is an example.
Honestly I always thought the scale creep fuss was a bit rediculous. Minis are supposed to get better as time goes on, and they can add a lot more detail to them now, which a slightly larger scale helps. I've got about 4 generations of space marine models in my collection, and some can rave about the older ones for nostalgia... to me they have always gotten better looking. They used to be so stunty and awkward body poses, now their much more dynamic.
Where is that treant mini from? The printed one that is
I prefer "Firstborn" Space Marines. Its what I grew up on and frankly I like their look way better. Primaris just dont look Grimdark to me.
Why not both? Keep the big minis for artistry and evocative visuals, then have some tiny versions at lower detail for tactical play and long-range terrains!
3:49 can we take a minute to apreciate how primaris marines doesn't even look like SM .... the skull helm is reserved to chaplins, they reduced the size of the shoulder pads in relation to the overal scale, the bolt rifle looks like a generic assault rifle from any scify, the made all chapters identical, gravis aromr prevent any kind of tactical flexibility where assault jump pack was a easy to take off lore wize.
Primaris are just an excuse for GW to sell a second SM army to player by nerfing old models pushing them out of the meta .
Pouches everywhere. The Primaris look like a 90s-era Rob Liefeld version of Marines.
How do they not look like marines?
Because of smaller shoulderpads and skull helmets??
As for the gun, boltguns also look super generic.
@@pinoarias8601 Bolt rifles are longer and therfore look finer, resembling any assault weapon, they lack the stocky side and look less agressiv.
Same thing for primaris, making them taller but not lager means they are geting a slimer silhouete which make them looking generic.
The skull helm is a mark for a certain role withing the Legiones Astartes, the fact that GW chose to ignore once again pre-existing lore is an other mark of how poorly designed Primaris are.
With you there.
32mm with realistic proportions is way better than 28mm heroic proportions. Fight me.
If I fight you it would be like Nacho Libre against those guys in the street…therefore I concede 😂
I think there are way more issues in the war gaming community where scale creep affects mechanics and invalidate older models. From the D&D and painting side I think larger models are great for having things to focus on and being more memorable, especially if someone is sitting 3-4 ft from the minis, and I find them more enjoyable to paint. If slightly larger bases cause problems with distance mechanics one could just go with measuring sticks instead of grids.
That being said I'd love to have tons of tiny models that can be printed/painted quicker with less material for various uncommon settings or for easier traveling. Needing a chest/large box to carry minis because there's a dragon or the like, set pieces or just alot of possible minis to encounter is pretty awful.
I don't own any minis, but I don't think the "more expensive" complaint would last too long. If multiple companies all start selling larger minis, then people can go to whichever one they prefer. This will lead some of the companies to try and reel in those buyers with lower prices or better quality. This, in turn, will cause the other companies to do the same or risk losing customers to their competition. A basic free market system at work always results in better products for the customer.
Many printable models come with files for both a large bust and 32mm scale mini. So you could print a mini for use on the table, and also have a bust your players can keep next to them to show everyone at the table what the character they are playing looks like. The bust would also make a great souvenir to display to remember the campaign after it is over.
Personally, I like to keep the scale of the minis on the table consistent with each other to give a sense of how powerful the adversary is.
And Primaris isn't an example of scale creep. They should have been that big the whole time. Space marines have always been significantly bigger than normal humans in the lore. 40k players have been complaining for decades that Space Marines should be taller than Guardsmen.
5:14 Anyone know where the centaur mini is from?
They’re from our Uncharted Lands collection! You can find the specific model in this set: lostadventures.co/products/bhantar
@@3DPrintedTabletop Thanks, Danny! I'm always on the lookout for great centaur minis, they're one of my favorite races in dnd!
Super pumped about the latest download drop from Kickstarter that drop yesterday.
Thank you Dawn! Is there anything you are most excited about/ready to print?!
@@3DPrintedTabletop town square and watch tower.. I am getting the Fart quest books and printing the minis for my niece Jess for her birthday in April.
Detail, paintability, and 3d printability just aren't important to me. I think the hobby is big enough for your giant figs AND my smaller 25/28mm figures. The thing about GW is that they just don't care about you or me, and they take us wherever they want to go.
How do you have Miniacs Wood Elf STL... share?
I think there's a real split in the hobby between the people who enjoy the painting process and the people who don't but paint anyway because base plastic/resin/metal is always uglier than any paint job. For the people who love painting, larger scale is great because you really get to flex on those details and there's just more of your favourite parts to paint that you get to enjoy (like I really enjoy painting skin, so a big giant is one of my favourite things to paint). For the people that don't love painting, the extra extraneous detail that looks cool but doesn't necessarily actually add much to the core aesthetic and story of the model (looking at all the stuff hanging off of Stormcast Eternals belts >
Hey where is that treant model from it looks amazing! Also I love bigger minis but I hate the cost of resin. Not sure if creep is good or bad, but we are certainly entering a gold age of 3d models. The quality of some designers out there these days are just breathtaking. I say if they want to set the scale to 32mm to make them look amazing go for it.
3:40 Are bigger minis inherently more expensive? I would guess barely.
It does not matter so long as everything is at a similar scale. It also depends on the game. Some games scale matters a lot more other games it could be a flat token. If you like to paint then bigger can be better. But smaller has its pros as well. Bigger means more detail that needs more thought when painting.
bigger minis can be printed hollow, so they may not even be that much more expensive.
whats plastic? lol
I prefer the chunkier old range of minis. I hate scale creep! It fucks up all the proportion with the terrain that I crafted and so on. Just stick to the bloody 32 mm (28 mm heroic) that you claim to produce.
I care not, as long as Space marine is at least 2 foot higher than ordinary Grunt. difference should be noticeable at elast..
My RPG table, grid size, and bases sizes are all fixed. That doesn't leave any room for scale creep. Bigger sizes are less forgiving to mistakes and take longer to paint. I will gladly trade you your "days of scrubbing mold release" to avoid the today's fragile sculpts that break when you touch them. In short, scale creep Bad, metal Good!
Danny - Metroid helmet? Let’s talk about that ;)
scale is so inconsistent already that my kingdom death mini's fit well enough alongside form of my Raging hero and oathmark mini's on the table anyway. I do think it is bad when GW is using it an an excuse to nearly double prices on models.
20 years from now
They will rival our size
I think both scales have their merits and it depends mostly on your play groups. Larger minis lend towards more heroic, small scale combat, whereas smaller minis seem to support larger scale battles and potentially more army-centric combat.
Accessibility is definitely a huge factor and I think that's what makes me wish Wiz Kids printed their minis at a larger scale, so newer/younger/disabled/whatever painters can get into the hobby.
I do love the idea of smaller scale over the larger one, but the illegibility of your individual minis at that scale really distances me from the character, when a lot of visual lifting of the action is done by the model.
Crossposted on both videos for discussion.
Minis dont have to be detailed. Its for wargaming. For strategic learning purposes. Bigger scale minis need bigger areas to play. Your arms are only so long. The table can only be so big.
if the scale is said a certiam amount (I.e 1/144) and it comes out bigger like 1/120th it annoys people who really want accurate scale to the source material. This is apparent in gundam plastic models with the hg line for gundam wing, f90, and crossbones.
hi. great vids. where can i find 3d printed proxy warhammer imperial gaurd??
thats 40k imp gaurd.
Well, have to say this is probably the first time I wanted to stuff a sock in Danny's mouth. Not about the scale, but him calling the primaris marines a 'glow-up'. The look of them, in my opinion, is terrible. It's nothing to do with the scale, people have been wanting GW to put out slightly larger space marines for years, so they weren't the same size as the guardsmen minis. But everything about the primaris marines just doesn't fit with the setting. Their look, their lore, their rules. It's like when someone makes something god-awful for dinner, but they're so convinced it's amazing they keep shoving it in your face and stopping you from finding something else to eat.
But on the question of scale in general. Yeah, bigger minis often look more impressive, are easier to paint, and generally are a good thing... Except when they're not. Aside from the biggest issue being their cost (or in the case of 3d printing, time and material requirements), the scale of a mini may have some impact on how the game is played. For example, to go back to old school GW games, 40K has always been popular. But the issue was, unless you were playing in a gymnasium, you couldn't use realistically sized armies, and weapons has unrealistically short ranges. Enter Epic. Epic scaled everything down in an attempt to simulate larger battles, with bigger units, and more realistic ranges. It didn't quite reach full realism, but it did a good job of representing larger battles with a grander scale to them. For example, you'd never realistically be able to field (or afford) and entire space marine chapter in 40K. But in Epic, you could do that pretty easily, and regularly.
Other games use a smaller scale simply for convenience or to keep more in-line with the wider game and model market. Battletech could produce their minis at any scale, but any larger and the required space for a game becomes unreasonable. Gaslands has a scale that's set by third party, since that game uses dye-cast toy cars for their minis. Games like D&D (at least back in 3.5e days) used 1 inch squares as the foundation of measurement for miniatures, so your average character had to fit onto a 1 inch square base. Of course, there was some wiggle room there, but you couldn't go too far out of scale, because there was a reasonable limit in place.
They could have easily put the "detail" of Primaris on the first born, and its proven in the Deathwatch models from the Overkill game. I totally agree with all you said.
I volunteer as tribute for you to put a sock in my mouth if it means leaving a thoughtful comment like this one. Cheers!
Space Marines are boring and bad. Primaris are just a bigger versionof that blandness.
@@3DPrintedTabletop Then allow me to throw in a bonus, just to shove that sock in a bit deeper. This is a perfect argument as for why 3D printing is such a boon to the gaming community as a whole. Don't like the scale? Change it. As you mentioned yourself, with a few caveats, when you 3d print your minis, you're able to adjust the scale as you see fit. You could easily reduce, for example, the average 40K mini to one third it's usual size, and simply convert inches to centimeters, allowing you to field armies three times the size on the same table. Or conversely, take something like a BattleTech mech mini, and scale it up to a size to be the centerpiece of a 32mm scale skirmish game. The flexibility that 3d printing affords gamers is an unprecedented and often overlooked advantage to buying pre-produced miniatures.
In fact, when I myself had been thinking about working on my own table-top wargame, I set out from the start with the assumption that players would be printing their own minis for it. And as such, I had intended to include rules for different levels of combat. Starting with the small scale, large battles as the base game, with accompanying rules for larger scale skirmish gameplay, where infantry (normally represented as a single stand of several tiny figures) would be printed in the typical 32mm heroic scale, with small mech and vehicles printed larger to match. I'd be able to not only cater to different sub-groups in the wargaming community, but also give more incentive to people to make more use of their printers.
Also, on a side note. We've got the same name. So I suppose this would be considered brutal Danny vs Danny combat. Have at thee!
@@mycatistypingthis5450 Eh, I'd more say Ultramarines are boring and bad. Primaris just infects the other chapters with the same blandness.
When you have an existing army and they stop making them at the same scale the creep SUCKS
I have found painting larger minis easier, so I agree with you on that.
I prefer 32mm D&D models. Much more detailed. What size (not scale) are Primaris Marines?
preach brother
Having watched both videos produced by the two of you I'm inclined to try out 10mm more.
The reasons presented are fair. I like a good looking model as much as the next person. But when it comes to storage and quantity of models I don't think 10mm can be beat. I get annoyed painting a group of 5 models from GW taking anywhere between 5-15hrs. And that's just the wargaming aspect of things. D&D, depending on monster variety and terrain, can be much much worse.
Going into the world of D&D, while you can absolutely proxy models if you don't have them, I like the idea of being able to make and paint up an entire scenario and models in a day. Even if it's not the best looking thing you'd be much closer to it then if you were 2-3x bigger. Ontop of that the comment about dragon flight is correct.
Final takeaway, stop playing dragons like large punching bags and burn your players from the rooftops. It's a dragon not a pissed swan. :P