73 - Coloring/Staining Blotchy Woods
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This video is from a live demo I did on Wed. Nov 19th, 2008. The topic was staining blotchy woods. After the demo, Ive included a portion of the Q&A from the chat room. Thanks to everyone who participated!
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NM. "You can really never go wrong with doing this procedure as cautionary thing." All I needed to hear!
This really works! Finished some veneer plywood by sealing first and then applying the same gel stain and it looks amazing. Thanks for the great tip!!
Your knowledge, passion for the art and manner of delivering the information is inspiring and greatly appreciated.
I appreciate that!
This guy is no Joke he was given a gift a great talent for working with and understanding wood. Thanks for your videos.
12 YEAR OLD VIDEO...AND ONE OF THE BEST ON THE SUBJECT!.. ACTUALLY HAVEN'T SEEN ANOTHER ONE COVERING GEL STAIN AS A SOLUTION @... THANKS BUD!
10 year old video was exactly what I needed to know. Thanks
I made a rocking chair and didn't know about the blotchy of the maple i used, its still on the scrap heap and i decided to quit wood work, but now i know what to do next time and i now plan to resume wood work ! Thanks !
Such a great video, Paul. Thank you!
Marc-I made some Alder shelves and wanted an espresso look to match some other furniture in the room. I practically ruined them with a blotchy application of Minwax Jacoba. I watched this video and was able to save the project with some gel stain!! Thanks!!!
I wish I'd seen this before I bought new cans of Varathane... But, now I know. Shellac & General Finishes Gel Stain. I can't wait for the first project!
general finish gel stain is GREAT
i don't care how long your videos are you keep me hooked the whole time :)
Massive amounts of great information! Thank you! Now, on my way to Amazon Prime to watch your series.
Almost 40 years ago the old time owner of a paint store turned me on to shellac... My shop has never been without it since... In the last few years the price has skyrocketed! It used to be a cheap alternative to other finishes but no longer... Great video as always!
Thanks! I am floorguy and we have been using that same sealcoat for years. More as a first coat under waterborne finishes. Sealcoat and then gels,thats a great idea!
I'm dying an alder wood door in the morning and the result that you had on the first side is exactly what i'm
looking for
thanks for the vid. i'm making a box out of cherry and maple so they blotch easily. I never knew shellac could be a blotching preventative measure. When i pore fill with timbermates i use a coat of shellac to prevent the wood from being stained. Very cool and a bit counter intuitive. Shellac rocks my socks
Thank you for sharing this video, have a lot of respect for you.
If a piece of wood is water popped and sanded, dyes will give a very transparent result.
Color variation, specially in Alder is not considered a defect, as long as end user is ok with it, but to choose a character grade wood and expect to turn it into select grade by staining it, is frowned upon by some naturalist finishing masters.
Gel stains are almost never used by good finishers, because they cover the grain instead of enhancing it.
A penetrating sealer that is diluted enough that gets into the soft part of the wood will do a nice job of sealing those areas, leaving a better balance between soft and hard part of the wood resulting in a more uniform stain job, but grain stays readable instead of being buried under a coat of color.
Usually a 10% sealer can be applied and a soft sanding is followed after drying, any stain can be applied after that.
That’s what I was thinking in the end some people probably like the color variations . I prefer to see more grain myself rather than mudding it out
I actually recently started using the water based spray poly by minwax and I like it. Spraying anything is an art and you must know how to do it properly to achieve good results. I build a lot of tables and and when I have tables that have stained legs and aprons I find the spray poly to work perfect.
I love hearing a good success story! Glad it worked out for you!
Great video! You explained everything so a amatuer like me could understand. I am refinishing a mid century maple library card catalog cabinet, and I was freaking out how to get the color a bit darker. Your color obtained from the 1lb cut and walnut got exactly the color I want!
Yes it will. If you can, make up a scrap piece to test on. To get everything to match up, you're going to have to layer on quite a bit of color. A dye is a good place to start and a gel stain does a good job of helping mask some grain. But playing with scraps is the only way to make sure it's going to look the way you want. Might even have to consider using toners with a contrast that strong.
This was a great video!!
Glad you liked it!!
Of course
I was looking for some good advice on finishing pine...I think Ive found some great advice here! Thanks
Regarding the Olympic gel stain, I totally agree with your "poop in a can" analogy. I tried the mahogany stain only once and swore that I would never use it again. Also, shellac makes an excellent sealer against silicone contamination which can come from using furniture pollishes. It's far better than any fisheye flowout product because it doesn't contaminate the surface, or your spray equipment, with more silicone.
Always very helpful videos. Thanks for sharing!
Can you use a shellac and then a darker danish oil? I would imagine that it shouldn't be an issue but wanted to make sure
Am I not seeing it the same way as everyone else? I actually liked the other side. I like for the knot holes to be darker and have that kind of look to it. Is that considered "wrong" if I am making my own stuff? Maybe I cannot see what part is "blotchy." I usually either paint something or leave it natural with a coat of linseed oil. I'm looking at dyes, because I want to try to replicate the purpleheart color without the high price of actually using purpleheart. I will probably be using cedar or pine, because those are what I can possibly afford. I don't mind knots showing through. I love that.
Brandywine6969 I agree with you when it comes to alder like he was using. The blotching is mostly centered around the knots. But when it comes to something like birch the blotching appears to be too random and looks like a mistake.
Blotching is terrible with birch - but if you do a thin shellac sealer coat and use a "GEL" stain it helps a ton - I think it all depends on how porous the wood is. Ring species, ash, black locust, catalpa, chestnut, elm, hickory, mulberry, and oak, the larger vessels or pores (as cross sections of vessels are called) are localized in the part of the growth ring formed in spring, thus forming a region of more or less open and porous tissue.
But with something such as BIRCH - the pores are everywhere - not just localized around the knots. So using a sealer then a gel stain is a life saver. I also love darker knots and no matter what you do - all knots have pores around the outside edges of the rings of the knots - even more so than anywhere else on any wood. Hopefully that helps!
Also - I'll use a cheap hard wood - and veneers of expensive woods - more expensive does not always mean more durable!!!!!!!! Work smart - not hard! lol and Veneers stain just the same as anything else!
I agree, i prefer the deeper wood grains and knots too lol
@@Xplorer228 Same for poplar. Dark stain can come out light, but with random black looking blotchiness (like it's dirty). The same for even maple when using gel stain (why did I even try using that crap?). Wood conditioner and gel stain make an especially bad combo with poplar for some reason.
I was thinking of what he said at 25:20 when I started watching this video, basically sometimes I think blotching looks good if it's consistent in the project.
Best rule of thumb is to always seal your work with the same product as the top coat. Lacquer sealer for lacquer top coat, Water base sealer for water base top coat, Oil based sealer or primer for oil based topcoat or paint. etc..
The company I use to work for used a lot of cherry which can be very blotchy. We would use half/half solution of water and denatured alcohol and spray it on the cherry. The water raised the grain and the alcohol just helped it dry faster. After its good and dry the stain came out much more even. Of course you need to have a good even sanding job.
Fabulous overview.
fo show a awesome video. A great lesson learned.
Perfect timing watching this! I'm in the process of redoing a cherry coffee table. I wanted to show wood grain, so I first tried a plain clear coat, because of the differences in the pieces of wood I did not care for that look. I decided to use a dark stain. After several attempts to get it a uniform look, besides painting, I was unsure of how to move forward. Also not excited about starting from scratch, I am definitely going to try the suggestion of using the gel stain over what I've done. Fingers crossed it turns out. I planned on finishing with lacquer to keep in the Queen Anne style. Can you use that over gel?
I wish you worked closer to the camera. Good info.
Great demonstration.
If you want to save your material from shelf life disasters, I store all my cans upside down on the shelf. It seals the product 100% and solids that settle are on top later than on the bottom when you open to mix tithe product up. Note, if the can is not sealed properly, you will know if right away.
Nothing wrong with glue size per se, but I like using shellac for more consistency from project to project. Plus glue size has a lot of water in it, so you'll wind up raising the grain more than with shellac. Just a personal preference on my part really.
I learned a lot and thoroughly enjoy your video on fight bitchiness. Thanks.
Exactly what I needed for my project - thanks!
@Rodgleztube Oh I see. Because we actually ran two cameras: one for the live feed and one for the recording. We later learned to keep the cameras closer together so I can at least look in the same general direction.
Just be sure to practice on scrap. the amount and concentration of shellac will affect the amount of color absorption. Too much, and you won't get any color at all. Also consider using something that works even better than shellac: Charles Neils Blotch Control Formula
Keep in mind that with flame maple on a guitar, you actually WANT the blotching to occur. If you use the method described in this video, you will cut down on the contrast that makes tiger maple so awesome. I have another video called Pop Goes the Maple that describes the process I use for getting the best grain contrast. But really, you can just use the water-based stain alone and get good results.
This video is much appreciated. Thanks a lot.
This was a recorded live session. That laptop has the chat room on it so I can read the questions and comments. Not sure what you mean by "why view elsewhere?"
My apologies if anyone has already mentioned this but shellac has a shelf life so be sure you need a lot of it before you buy a lot of it, I think Zinsser claim 3 years but you can find that 1 year is really all you'll get from a batch, I'm incredibly boring so I love mixing the flakes with the alcohol
I completely agree. But what makes you say that?
Maybe its just the 360 resolution... but i like the blotch side where you can see the character of the wood still
Keep your seal coat longer by blowing into your can after holding your breath as long as you can with the lid partway on, then quickly closing the lid. This works for all solvent paints, oils.
good shit i like it informative and not boring thanks
If you're health conscious I'd like to recommend something different than Kleen Strip SLX. It has a lot of methanol in it - up to 60% plus some other nasty stuff that seems to dissolve paint easily. For a little more money you can get the "green" version, which I believe is only 5% methanol.
I am using aromatic cedar as it is plentiful and cheap where I live. mI use a 2 lb cut ,sand with 320 and then use Johnson paste wax as a final finish. I have furniture that I finished like this 10+ years ago and when the finish starts looking less than perfect I simply recoat with the wax and it buffs out to a perfect look. Also using shellac as a finish is great if something gets a scratch or blemish I just re sand that spot ,re-shellac and wax. I prefer it to poly or varnish. The other thing about using shellac is there is usually only one hour between coats.
Excellent explanation but i still wonder why when i apply oil stain on my projects, mainly pine woods, the reg i use to clean /dry the stain (whipping cloth) dries quickly and gets rough with full of pitches 🤔
Transtint makes incredibly dark dyes. General Finishes also has some dark water-based dyes as well as very dark stains. I'm sure there's something there that will suit her tastes.
Great video, but it didn't solve my issues with staining with MInwax Pecan with Polyurethane. I had to go back and sand a part that was too dark and one part that was showing a magic marker squiggle. I got them sanded out, but when I applied the stain w/ PolyU it was lighter than the rest of the bannister top. But still, I learned a few things with your expert presentation. Thanks so much.
thank you Mark
I'm still up in the air on Monocoat. It's really just an oil finish so I don't think it offers nearly the protection levels that the brochure claims, at least when compared to a standard film finish.
There's a prestain conditioner I use and it usually takes care of the blotching issues
yeah , always more options staining a finish than staining the timber.
this is a old furniture trick and it was common to cut oil varnish 50 /50 for as sealer and a smooth finish then lay your stains
It might, but it may also prevent the stain from penetrating as deep, resulting in a lighter color. So you'll want to test on scraps first.
Oooh, hoping this works on 1961 vintage fir! Going to try on our built-in master bedroom dressers... 16 drawers total. No scrap wood, except a few pieces of fir siding from old wall panels. Wish me luck!
From my back. :) I use old t-shirts. The whole family knows I use them so I tend to get a bunch of old clothes.
Hey dude. Would you be willing to give me a little help please. I am going to refinish a beechwood gun stock. I want the grain to lift as much as possible and I'm using a grey stain for a rustic satin or flat finish. Are there any tricks to bring contrast to this type of wood? I would like the grain to go dark then have lighter parts of grey wood from the dark grain...have u got any tips for me please?
Thanks.👍🏼
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Thanks. Marc. I can't wait to see this thing when its done. Walnut and Cherry sooooo nice to plane and cut dovetails into.
Just one more reminder that you get what you pay for. The trick is finding out where the compromises are... Sometimes, that process hurts.
do you have a video on maple wood using water based stain?
For blotchy stained wood, spray a coat of the same stain onto the lighter parts to even up the color.
A few years back I built a pool table. Mostly out of maple, but the sides were a very clean poplar. I was worried about blotchiness, but I used that gel stain, and the finish was amazing. No blotchiness and a really consistent look. I know that poplar is generally a paint grade wood, but it did't have any purple or green. It almost looked like maple. I definitely got a good cut, but the gel stain was the hero in the project. excellent product.
Marc, alway's i mean ALWAY'S put a rag ovev the can before sealing the lid. I had to repaint a whole kitchen/dinning room because my helper taped the top on with a hammer and drop's of stain went everwhere.
I saw that one and it was informative, just wondered whether the maple routered edge on my table (very white in comparison to the walnut) would be a challenge to make the same dark color.
What do you do when you want the stain to take in the tiger maple figure ...but want to avoid the blotchiness where the knots are? I have a huge tiger maple slab that I will be trace coating first with dye
I am considering building a bookcase with birch ply. I want that mid century medium walnut vibe. So, the best combo for this would be a 1lb cut of the shellack and a gel stain of the desired color? I haven't reached the end on finishing recommendations... poly?
Great video, thank you, sir. Is it possible without stripping to lighten a piece that has been stained too dark and already has a coat of urethane over the stain?
Bought some Sealcoat. It works great - no blotchy wood! However, I'm having trouble getting the wood as dark as I'd like it. Thanks!
i am building a green and green chest with darrell pearth's plans he used mahogany and i am using cherry. my question js should i use the lacquer before i use the general finish dyes
Could you do a tutorial on taking paint off cabinet doors step by step?! I plan to do that in my house..... but keep finding different ways to get it done.
Well I'm avoiding blotches in the following way - I apply nitrocellulose sanding sealer as couple of coats, then add pigment to nitrocellulose lacquer, apply 1-3 layers, depending on color I need and then clear coat. Problem solved.
well, that's not really staining, is it? What you are doing is a toning process.
Why not add a bit of gel stain to the diluted shellac sealer to start the process? Just a thought.
I know you recommend general finishes gel stain but how does the minwax gel stain hold up?
Do you have any friends that can help you with the camera?😂 Just kidding, great information in your video. I personally enjoyed watching 🙏
Marc, Enjoy all your tutorials but much is said about how to avoid blotch but nothing about how to correct a table top that has blotching. I have done a lot of furniture staining with success using full shellac, but this time I stripped and sanded this Cherry lowboy with 150 grit, 180 , and then 220 grit and applied MiniWax oil base pre-stain conditioner. Applied it, left it on 15 min and wiped it off and stained the piece with oil base red mahogany by Varthane the NEXT DAY, well it turned out horrible. It states on the pre-stain can to apply stain in 2 hours, do you think by waiting until the next morning caused this blotching? Also is there anything I can do to correct the blotching without sanding it down to the bare wood and starting over. Any suggestions are most appreciated. Ed
Yup!
@bencuri I might recommend you try Charles Neils blotch control. Its a water-based sealer and it won't reactivate when hit with your alcohol-based stain.
Great info. I want to restain an existing knotty pine paneled wall to remove the "orange" tone it has. Do you think it's necessary to shellac first or will it be safe to just stain over the existing surface? Would gel stain be the way to go?
Is the use of shellac an option if you're just not sure if you will have staining issues? Just a safety measure?
Great video. What would you recommend for a deep mahogany look on a formal dining room table top made of maple with walnut veneer? I've got it all stripped down now to refinish.
we can't buy denatured alcohol now, is there something else to thin the shellac?
Best way to test if shellac is still good is to put a big drop on some glass. If the shellac dries hard it's still good. If it stays tacky, throw the can away.
It is great to see how well shellac works as a sealer to avoid blotching. However here at home I mostly use powder stain that can be dissolved in alcohol, and I guess for that the shellac is not the best as sealer under it, because they use the same solvent. What else can be compatibile? Linseed oil? Or some very thinned varnish? How much should be the oil/varnish and solvent ratio? I want to stain beech and apple anyway.
I need your help....I have a pine door. Did a red Chestnut stain. It was a disaster. I have sanded it with some 320 sand paper so the wood grain is showing and I must admit, the grain is gorgeous.... Now I don't know what to do now. I'm scared to stain it again...but it's surely still very ugly in certain spots.. what do I do? This is lovely 100 year old door... I really want to keep it. What cool method can I do the make it work. Should I use a gray color stain and wipe it off to antique it. Oh Gosh I'm lost. Help Please!!!
"one mans blotch is another mans figure"....perfect. this will be the exact words that im going to use when i do this one complaint on a billiard table I made. thanks. ;)
It would be helpfull to have close ups. Really can't see differences from the distances being shown now.
Thanks for the video! I refinished my birch kitchen cabinets using the 50/50 shellac/denatured alchohol, then used slightly thinned out minwax oil based gel stain and Varathane polyurethane in matte finish..and they came out great! Now I'm on to the next project which is refinishing an old heywood wakefield chair (Maple) Awesome chair, and I MUST NOT screw it up, so I wanted to ask you before jumping in:
1. Is the General Finishes "Java" Gel Stain you used an oil based stain?
2. Can this stain be reapplied once dry for darker color if needed?
I realize the video is 10 years old :) but if you're still there somewhere, I'd sure appreciate the info :)
You can restain it as many times as you want to. Just be careful around the ends of the board, as they come out a lot darker with each coat. Depending on the wood, you can see a fair bit of difference to bery little at all. I've also combined hues. First laying down expresso or mocha, letting it dry, then a dark mahogony, which affects the lighter areas more and adds eat dimension to the wood.
Any tips for matching maple? I have an old butcher block work bench that I am convert to a kitchen island and extending the top with a matching maple butcher block. I am having trouble getting the top to match with the different aged woods.
I have a project using plywood and gel stain. Would you recommend sealing that?
If using the pre-stain conditioner rather than the shellac, do you still wait for the pre-stain conditioner to dry completely or do you apply the stain after 15 min or so?
what about a water based stain?
i will be wooking on staining a flammed maple top on a guitar a strong purple color and i want to know what i should use.
I'm reversed on that statement anyway. Obviously a stain penetrates the wood thus blotchiness in some woods. But stain is the one that's suppose to lay on top. Anyway back to the original question. For me to have gotten what I wanted, I did a coat using my dye. If it wasn't dark enough or vibrant enough rather, I just did another. Any stain based custom color of stain has been terrible and any high end dye color has yielded great results. I don't do much of this. In the last 7 years....maybe two projects with a bright color. Generally, a gel stain or a natural color dye has been the main system I use.
I may have missed it, but will the seal coat help when applying a dye vs a stain? Or will a conditioner work for dye?
I know you are a Powermatic fan as I am. I have several older Powermatic Artisan machines. I am looking to upgrade to a Powermatic 8" jointer with helical head and 220 single phase but they are not to be found. What has happened to them?
There are so many different Denature Alcohol, which one??? Does it matter? And what if you can't get the powder? How would you mix the liquid Shelac with what kind of Alcohol?
Will this work well on the yellow pine stairs that I’m trying to make a walnut color? P