Can Gyrobombers really move that fast?
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2021
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Игры
"I can understand how that screaming can get annoying."
I say that about every goblin in recruitment stance.
Nah, try the dark elf sorceresses. Their scream is most annoying way.
@@XXXmar123 Malekith screams like he is still burning in the Flame of Asurian. Very annoying... but pretty cool in its own way
yeah, I also fucking hate Goblins. I just want to see them dead everytime they raid or recruit
Dwarfs fighting against the Empire on Ulthuan controlled by Morathi. Ok.
These are strange times
Well Lothorn Has a massive Herdstone raised put in harbor in my game :P
I'm at turn 120 in my Thorek campaign...
Morathi has Ulthuan and just took Couronne. Mannfred took out the entire Empire and had over 40 settlements which are mostly mine now.
But the best part? Half of Norsca is owned by f#@%£&* Tilea...
AI is trippin'
@@Meyna86 my clan moulder endgame was endless stacks of southern realms. tilea,estalia, border prince, thegans errantry, knights of origo and flame. I took out all major factions precisely to avoid geting swamped but that made things only worse. A lot worse.
@@Meyna86 "southern realms" at it's best :D
Welcome to Estalia Gentledawi, I will not lie, your chances of survival are slim.
high*
This would be really good vs a Rite of Primeval Glory army
I played Fortunate Son in a loop since the battle started.
It was truly magnificent
Should have played Paranoid, Balthasar Gelt would have been proud of you then
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen!
You right
There is Bardcore cover of that.
You are welcome.
Shouldn't that have been Aces High?
I think one of the biggest things holding back the damage output of the bombers is the stupid way the AI chooses targets within a formation -- I have no earthly idea why CA made it so that it seems to prioritize hitting models on the flanks of a formation instead of in the center with certain units. With the bombers it means they're very clearly missing a ton of shots for no good reason whatsoever because they aren't that accurate and they're aiming for models that *aren't* surrounded by other models.
Watch the Zerkovich guide on targeting. They always aim for the closest model in the unit.
@@ggleplussuxx4787 From my own experience earlier, they have to have the enemy formation's banner in line of sight. I was trying to get my thunderers to shoot some orcs through a hole in the walls. Even though half of the formation was clearly in sight, they kept trying to charge past the wall because the banner was slightly obscured.
I hate this shit so much. Especially with artillery during siege battles.
if you move them closer to the unit, they appear to wisen a bit up, and shoot more for center. It happens more at 30% range or so, instead of standing at max range.
It's not a trivial problem to solve. What happens if they always shoot for the center of the unit and then the unit is spread out? Obviously it would be even nicer if they'd try to fire intelligently, taking their type of attack and the target into consideration, but I suspect CA don't want to complicate the AI that much, given the amount of models on the battlefield.
the speed when they got chased by the griffon probably topped out at 140 at best
the general on griffon gets bonus speed when in charging range though, I'd say it's closer to 150
Gyro's could be a load of fun if they had a manual control option like arty, become a bit of a flight sim then.
Isn’t there mods for things like this? Mods that let you control a model within a unit?
@@dionysius4353 manual controll of arty is in the game as standard, never seen one that would allow you to do the same with anything else, but I have never looked to hard.
Ooooo that would be sick
legend: trying to record an intro
Valmir von Raukov: RrRrRrAaAaAaAa!
Gyrobomber: "anti-infantry"
legend: They suck at dealing with infantry
Quite a few units with the 'Anti-Infantry' tag aren't actually good at fighting infantry.
S'cause the folks designing the game aren't very good at designing efficient anti-infantry units. They sound great on paper usually, but in practice it's like " Aaaand my men are getting shredded by infantry when they're supposed to mulch infantry. "
Durthu and Drycha start sweating.
Also, is there a list to the max speed of units ? We had this multiple times that units only were that fast on paper
Wow, calm down. Maybe, you also want tooltips in this game to show some useful info - like what fear and terror effects do? Or how does armor work? Or hit chance depending on MA / MD stats? Or what charge actually does? Or tutorial for newbee players about ability to rotate spells direction? Or billions of other things that you can learn only from youtube guides?
We here in Total War don't like to explain such things, you know.
@@jerondiovis6128 :(
@@jerondiovis6128 Well, the max speed has the issue that it's tied to animations, so it's not an actual value that can be shown. That's something to test out manually and usually only relevant in absurd situations.
The other things though, I fully agree. Warhammer is the most complex TW game yet and probably also the one with the least amount of tutorial. Had I not watched it for more than a year before getting it, I would have been totally lost, and even so there were many things I only figured out/found online long after I could have used them.
@@jerondiovis6128 This is total war. We don't need fancy instructions or helpful tips that are actually useful and not just annoying.
Every unit is different.
You need to test it in steps vs prev. lvl of Speed buff.
This can only be made over video taping each and then count time from a fix A to B distance moving in X time.
When X does not change anymore with more Speed(buff), your prev. buff lvl die hit the max.
Skaven weapon teams with 6x Warlocks Speedbuff hit their max Speed 1 Warlock E. before with 5. But since they bring down many more stats up like recharge shots, which hits max also with animation 2,3sec with 6 Warlocks + the dmg buff, 6x Warlocks is the effective max power peak Warlocks can add.
From here on adding a weaponteams unit is more effective adding power. with a RuinLord and 2x Plag monk heros you add to skaven weaponteams army the max effective power ratio available with magic dmg and deff ratio.
So with 1x Lord 2x PlagPriests 6x Warlocks 11x Weaponteams units/Catas you builded the highest peak of a weaponsteam skaven army.
Less Warlocks and more PlagPriests is lacking power per shot giving with less ammo on field related to focus to much on magic and deff spawning to gain time.
Time is in games represent by HP/Ehp
-Time is in games represent by Damage
If your *TTK* (Time To Kill) is to low, you need "time" to beat the other side while "trading" of any sort.
You can increase or better said decrease TTK to kill faster with harder hitting hits per shot, which saves ammo as well, while less in need of your own "Time".
Nvm.
Video tape, get a fix A to B distance all move in test. Compare until X is not chaging anymore.
Cheers
Gyrobombers: I don't you have any idea how fast I really am.
The damage in the opening volleys from these is nuts, but they're really bad at actually finishing things off. Kind of comparable to a wind spell- when a unit is near full models and in formation, it rips through them, but using it on a disrupted unit of 10 models is not going to do a thing. I think the best way to use these might be to fire off a volley or two and then target something else, and let the initial target regroup so that your shot pattern will be more effective against them
this
shooting en masse from a single angle didn't help. the missiles run away and your units fire shots at where they were instead of leading them properly, due to the high angle they're firing from. attacking from multiple angles with squadrons fixes the issue, you'll end up spraying the entire general area.
Welcome to Vietnam, gentlemen.
Runesmith is for damaging the walls because there is no siege attacker in this army
Seems like their rapid fire "inaccuracy" really helps, kind of like how a hellstorm is better because it spreads its shots
Thorek Ironbrow: TSK TSK TSK, SHAME, A SHAME, TSK, TSK, TSK
This doomstack would have really benefitted from a control group because some of the Gyrobomber kept getting obstructed by other Gyros and something like 3 to 5 Gyros were unable to fire every time Legend focused down a unit.
The problem with missile strength calculation is that it assumes it shoots the 8 shots instantly, but it takes time for it to shoot them. Same thing with ratling gunners, the calculation assumes they shoot their entire magazine instantly.
No, if you read the description it takes fire rate into account, but it doesn't take speed of projectile, but it should not matter much
quite sure the volley shots are fired at once. Its that the animation cannot be reduced so therefore reload time cannot be reduced that animation time
@@genrikhekkerman7981 It takes the calculated rate of fire into account, but stacking bonuses high enough can let the calculated ROF go below the floor set by the minimum animation lengths (both shooting and reloading). And the Missile Strength calculation doesn't account for the animation floor limit on ROF, it just does simple math based on the calculated values that don't actually work out that way in the live battle. Even arrow volleys suffer from this discrepancy, though it's less obvious than with rapid-fire guns like ratling guns, gyrobombers and helblaster volley guns.
@@genrikhekkerman7981 It only takes into account reload speed. Units like gyrobomber shoot their volleys in a line and it takes time (about 1.5 seconds for gyrobomber). It is even worse for ratling guns that take like 5 seconds to shoot their volley (18 shots), so their missile strength is ridiculously inflated beyond it's actual value. It probably works full strength in auto resolve though which is partly why weapon team stacks perform so well in it.
How to make up for the inaccuracy.
1.) Move in on your targets for a close barrage. (Ranged units will flee due to AI and its use of skirmish, in other words, no retaliation.)
2.) Aim for blobs of moving infantry. Many missed opportunities here.
With those two little things I believe this stack to be very useful.
they need to make the Gyrobombers have 2 different attacks like the Eagle claw bolt throwers.
Flame thrower Gyrocopters/bombers would be badass. Flying Iron drakes yo
you forgot to play Fortunate Son for the heli buff
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen!
As much as I love the Dawi, their war machines really do suck, at least in the way they're implemented. I just got the Thunderbarge mod, and _that_ is one hell of a way to implement war machines.
I can't seem to make the Thunderbarge do any work for me... That lack of mobility, plus not having a way to fire the broadsides, kills me. The bomb effect it has, too, is quite weak, to say nothing of the fact that it's difficult to maneuver it into position over a blob with how slow it is.
@@EagleScoutmano The modder made the conscious choice for the player to be unable to fire the broadsides, since there's either directional or 360 aiming capabilities. The way that I use it is zig-zaging it back and forth in front of the infantry, and the broadsides usually pick good targets by themselves. It is fairly slow, but fast for a Dwarven unit. I'll agree that the bombs are pretty shit, so I don't usually bother.
@@TheWhiteDragon3 so if there are foes on the sides, the Thunderbarge broadsides will fire? I will do some more experimenting with it. Thanks for the info though!
started playing the game about a month ago, and absolutely love it! your videos and suggestions are also very good, played the game after i've watched you playing high elves vortex campaign. that being said i would love to see being added the possibility to set types of formations, like checker board, so you won't have to do it manually. AoE i think is a good example of how to do it. think it would help a lot when dealing with micro managment and multiple waves of enemies
One of those pilots better have been named Barry Allen with how fast they were going.
I would have thought flying units wouldn';t have to worry about those damn caps.
Problem with Gyrobomber guns is theyre piss poor inaccurate
I found main gun despite having over 1000 MS they barely do ajy damage at all, been testing them against single entity, monsters, large and Infantry units and nothing was done.
Seems to me that that's actually what made them better than Legend expected. Spreading the damage thanks to inaccuracy, instead of overshooting the same guy.
Though that's only good for a doomstack I guess.
I love these medieval games with helicopters and laser cannons
6:45 I’ve never seen a more beautiful kill box in all my life
One thing I've noticed is usually the length of the video reflects the efficiency of these different doomstacks you try out.
Late comment.
1. Gyrocopters (Steam, short-range) are good for clearing most range units. They have such short range that by the time they get there the enemy range units will keep running away from you and not return fire, but it is important to always have one unit to stop other range units from firing by flying over them constantly. Fire on the move is extremely useful here. Threats are Ushabtis with great bows, Jezzails, sniping lords, accurate long-range units.
Also, fantastic against range units that do not have 360 firing arcs on a wall during a siege. They just can't do anything. It is recommended to have 3-4 of units, one to prevent other range units from firing while the others concentrate fire on an enemy range unit. Preferably with guard mode turned off.
Firing all at once with this variant is not a big issue because they are inaccurate, to begin with. With that being said 3-4 is enough.
2. Gyrocopters (Brimstone Gun). Good against cavalry (Do not fire at the same time), 16 entities a unit of any kind. Good against single entities that do not flinch as much. The best weapon against Chaos artillery. Not so much for Vampire Coast because they will be destroyed by the gun units before they can reach big mama mortar.
Also good at cleaning up units for being so accurate. (Again, do not fire all at once). 5-6 should be sufficient.
3. Gyrobombers are fantastic at concentrated firing. Lords, single entities of any kind, 4 entities a unit of any kind, highly armoured units, huge tight formation (Chokepoint or when your lord is surrounded, so a nearly unkillable lord such as Grombrindal is absolutely perfect for this.) The biggest middle finger in your doomstack but need to be very specific at what they are good at.
Fill the remaining slots with this version after you have recruited enough engineers and the other 2 variants.
Spamming any one type of unit of these 3 units is not ideal. It will be micro intensive but very adaptable to most situations.
It is actually less fun for me to play against factions that have units with Fire whilst Moving and 360 firing arcs because they do not care if you are rushing at them. Lizardmen actually gave me a lot of pain while using a Gyro Doomstack. Waywatchers, Shadow Warriors, cavalry with long-range (Except Outriders due to their shorter range), are all painful for this stack.
Runesmiths give 10% increased missile damage (”Sharpen Weapons”) AND reduces enemy missile and magic resistance by 10% (skill ”Wardbreaker”).
You can't reduce those resistances below 0, though. And gyrobombers do physical damage, so the magic resistance reduction would only really help Grom, who probably doesn't need that help a whole lot.
Tbf they don't need to be in the army for the latter, just in the same region, so having a master engineer instead of the runesmith while having the runesmith just walk along the army would work better
@@monochromaticspider Are you sure you can't reduce resistances below 0? I thought you could, similar to regen or tree units being weak to fire. Do they not get take more damage from fire attacks?
@@praaaaaallly Yeah, you can reduce resistances below zero, the effect is extra bonus damage. Monochromatic Spider is incorrect. That's the reason how Imrik can do way more damage to single entities than his weapon damage suggests.
@@praaaaaalllyYou cannot reduce resistances below 0. However, you CAN increase weaknesses as much as you want. Since Imrik was brought up, it should be said that he gives weakness, not reduces resistance.
Gyrobombers: You shouldn’t underestimate my power
at least it seems like a ton of fun to play this army!
2:00 legendary Math lesson
I noticed the gyrobomber shooting animation attacks in a line similar to dragon breath - it would probably serve to maximize their damage to aim them in a similar way (getting to the side of a long formation and letting off a volley)
Imagine being in the air and you're obstructed ...
A bandaid fix for the targeting issue is to use the stop command after every volley and issue a new attack order. You can see that the first volley is always a lot more spread out than the follow ups.
I have never heard the words "Overkill" and "Problem" in the same sentence.
I feel like these dwarvendoomstacks arent really that good. Dwarven armies are the best when they have a balanced composition
Trollhammer torpedoes was pretty sick
Thoreks Quarellers were pretty great, too.
@@genadity The old trollhammer stack was the greatest stack I had seen at that time (aside from the fear stacks which I always thought were super boring).
? This is way better than a balanced dwarf army, at least against most enemies. The runesmith stack is way better than a balanced army against pretty much anyone.
Your typical army should be balanced as the dwarfs. But each LL has something they can use better; thorek with runesmiths or quarrelers. Grombrindal with this. Belegar with bugmans rangers. Etc
@@spirit959ful yea man, shit was crazy
One of biggest weaknesses of the Gyrobombers is the fact that they always tend to colliding together so much and getting in very tight messy formations
This will always causing friendly fire or at least blocking a handful of them from firing
That's really up to CA to fix their fucking awful AI pathfinding.
Oh my God the Griffin in the beginning screeching lol.
Please make a tier list video for top doomstacks per race. Thank you!
Dwarves forever
F, with an F! 😂
I thought it was my system somehow already being crap. But thanks for letting me know about the memory leak issue.
That army looks like it would be really fun vs Vampire Counts.
Always be interested using gyrobombers, it looks very strong (sure, long to get ready with heroes upgraded etc, but potentially extremely strong).
Next time I try a Dawi campaign (last one was long ago, didn’t went well vs Grimgor in mid game, a bit overwhelmed around the Wastelands if I remember lol), I will definitely try out a Gyrobomber army.
I guess you don’t need 14 of them, 12 is enough… that gives plenty free space to get enough master engineers and lots of ammos replenishment, etc.
On my list to do things in WH2 !(which is quite long already, lol… life expectancy of that game is just huge) 😂
GG
I used the older version of this stack and it worked pretty well, the new changes don't really change it just buff it. From my experience though, the bombers work best if you split them into 3-4 groups to harass/kite/shoot enemy missile units, this is mostly only effective against armies that bring ranged units but only a few. As for dropping bombs, groups of 2-4 bombers work well to spread the bombs over clumped infantry without wasting bombs, and not take all day. The BEST use of this stack is to just auto counter chaos invasion, works 100% of the time every time. But it is also good against, VC and Norsca, so consider it as a very viable option for northern expansion. Its also very strong against lizardmen if you have to deal with them.
Cue flight of the Valkyrie
I think the runesmith is in there for the siege cheese with wrath and ruin
The way they flattened the poor huntsman general
"We need to take out these mortars before they kill their own troops"
No more drinks for Legend tonight!
Sees gyrobomber stack
-WELCOME TO ESTALİA GENTELMAN
Does that memory leak thing also cause slight flashing because for me I'm a campaign map sometimes but only when I play Green skins the campaign map and then eventually the rest of the game starts flashing not like flickering in and out of existence but like someone's quickly flicking on and off a light bulb in the game so imagine the fog of war is there but it's like strobing it's really f****** annoying and I hate it because I love playing greenskins but I can't stand to see that in the game
Lock them in a *wide* crescent formation, envelop a section of the enemy forces, focus fire on the inevitable blob of units, retreat, repeat.
Imagine if dwarf engineers could get a helicopter mount.
@Legend I think speed works like armour in that it stacks multiplicatively so it's diminishing returns.
Am wondering if putting in a couple ok of normal gyrocopters in the army would be good, as those have really good anti infantry attacks and could make dealing with guns a lot easier.
The speed of Gyrobombers is capped at 130.
Gyrocopter turned into A10warthog
when will you do lizardmen unit tier list
The problem with comparing stats on ranged units from missile infantry to single entities/artillery/war machines isn't that these ones are displayed incorrectly, but rather that the missile infantry is displayed incorrectly.
Sisters of Avelorn do roughly 25 damage per shot, per entity. For some reason, they chose to display the unit's damage output per entity, when it has 80 entities per unit. When in reality, each SoA unit has 80 shots per volley, meaning roughly 2000 damage per volley. If you can get 3x volleys per 10 seconds, you can easily reach 6-10k damage over 10 seconds.
Now, this is without taking account of accuracy, overkill, etc; but it's pointing out that these units have dramatically less, not more, firepower than missile infantry does.
On the next episode of Numbers With Legend ©️
Would be interesting to see a doomstack comprised of normal gyros with these boosts
Malakai Makaisson: "Ta is so betiful lad"
I really like this doomstack. If i am a little bit critical, i think you could have played the battle slightly better with a bit more micro, just to make sure the bombers are closer to some of their targets, and more effective targeting in general. Because sometimes they were shooting at missile units right at the end of their range, and they were missing like 90% of their bullets, but i think a but of micro can improve that accuracy. And the empire is not a horrible missile faction, i think this maybe could do better than you think vs dark elfs and high elves. I still think you are right in a 9/10, or even 8/10, its not a 10/10 in my opinion either. Overall a pretty easy, but strong doomstack.
What was that healing rune? Never seen it b4
i was having problems with memory leak in a different game and theres a free program called intelegent standby list cleaner which solved it maby it would work for you also?
Impressive calculator action in the begining
i think we determined the speed cap to be about 120 roughly(varying on different units) didnt we, it was an ooolder video
@23:00 you revealed your runesmith for just a moment
It would be cool if Master engineers had gyrocopter mounts.
I feel like gyro bombers should be able to cycle ammo types
Also the ammount of lying stat screens due to animation limitations is very annoying… there is no reason to cap the gyro bombers speed… if you out the time to make them go fast, they should go fast
Welcome to estallia gentlemen! (Fortunant son starts playing.)
I love the smell of a grudging in the morning.
The old meme leak in TW some had luck switching to map view zoom in out?
Gyrobomber stack without the sky hammer is heresy.
I feel like this army would really struggle at killing dark elves, or any army with a lot of ap missile infantry
What about a Thunderbarge Doomstack?
Fire while moving units usually have this problem. I dont know why, but it is annoying. I saw this all shooting 1 target of 100 infantary unit with Shadow warriors and walkers, waywatchers too. When they stand and shoot it is fine, but when they run back as shooting it is horrible.
2:08 You're obviously using a TKL keyboard
what about swapping the rune smith for a thane so in the 2nd half of the battle you bring him out, enemies cluster round him and you create a bombing zone. This also makes their bursts more effective
CA should make a mechanic where they'll tell you the max potential speed of a unit someplace on the unit card.
This is why Ratlinguns inaccuracy is a benefit, there is no way two shots from one volley hit the same model.
Boot, scoot'n'boogy
It would be nice if in WH3, they showed the hard caps on stats
my gyro doomstack would have at least some normal gyros and basically use one or 2 to harass the ranged units and keep them skirmishing while the rest stay pretty stationary shooting. using them all together for the same task is pretty inefficient.
I feel like it would be good against single entity doom stacks
Swiftly! Quickly!
They need to add some more complex behaviors to units to push total war into the next level. Like something besides skirmish maybe for gyrobombers they'll do raking fire against infantry and drill fire on monsters and monstrous infantry and while we're at it make skirmish a bit better.
Like where did the loose and tight formations go? Schiltron? Shield walls? These might be useful in Warhammer...
Welcome to Estalia gentlemen.
I wonder how it would perform if grombrindal will blob them up
Welcome to Estalia gentlemen.... or should I say Ulthuan....
I use this stack in my campaigns, it's a 10/10 siege army.
Why didn't you put Grombrindal and the ghost heroes into combat though? No magic damage in that empire army, you could of used them to clump up the empire troops to then hit with bombs and gyro ammo
I mean that is a fair point, but if you use them that way it would make the battle too easy.
It would not be testing a sepcific unit at that point, but the entire army as a whole.
Which is not the purpose of the video i believe.
Quick question, did you use them all at once or need to split into multiple targets to prevent overkill?
He's testing the gyrobombers in this battle not the heroes and lord. It's not a disater battle, but rate my doom stack.
@@quano5409 When I use it? Small groups. 2-4. Run them parallel to the wall bombing and gunning. Since the shots overshoot or undershoot usually that means they fire down the line and get more kills.
@@ehk5948 Yeah other dude said that too. I don't see it as the Heroes taking away much, if you're using them as bait. Still, it's at least a decent reason you and other guy offered. Fair enough.
Honestly think you just need to cycle targets, right click a unit... volley... right click other unit... volley. The shots are explosive so they knock people around, but that intial hit melts. Also think if u could micro these into like 2-3 man squads they also be better. Sure they don't melt like you expect, but they out trade any unit in game.
i think legend is starting to like flying units more
Gyrobomber is imo one of the most wasted units in this game. I literally never get them since they're almost worthless, not to mention their cost and effort to use.
Being able to waste enemy artillery is useful
@@silverhost9782 lord can do it lol, or gyrocopter
This would be so much better if they had the fire whilst moving tech
You should have your heroes charge in that way the enemy groups up and you can kill them easier and faster once you have deleted all the range units
That's what I was thinking
Flying units have a movement animation? I mean, they bob up and down. It's not like they have to sync with how fast the ground is moving between their feet
I think the inaccuracy ended up helping avoid over killing a single unit. Maybe not by much but healthy units sure get shredded.
Dawi Airforce welcoming Emperium peasants to Barak Zorn.