Clone Fulgrim IS the true Fulgrim as much as snake demon version. They are two halves of the same whole. Clone Fulgrim should be called Loyalist Fulgrim, as he needs no redemption. And, ALL Primarchs are engineered from the start, making a "clone" is not the same as cloning a human. Primarchs are vessels for the warp spirit that makes them who they are. Loyalist Fulgrim is worthy of being that vessel. He is therefore Fulgrim. Not a copy.
That is fane-theory combined with canon lore. You could equally be wrong. The Clone is ultimately a dead-end plot point. It's a trigger GW will most likely never pull.
@@MrOwneddeath true, but they had models, a history on the table top and was not just a side plot in the second book in a trilogy from an author, who no longer writes for GW. Novels characters very rarely become major Lore elements.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I mean, if you disregard the godawful short story Reflection Cracked, it might just as well be true. But yea, I doubt GW will go anywhere with clone Fulgrim.
@@Matihood1 Idk about that. I definitely think GW's keeping Clonegrim in their pocket for something. Just think about the amount of revenue and attention from fans they would receive if the loyalist clone of Fulgrim were to return, and the 3rd legion was reborn anew? It would also make for a great story about learning how to love one's self; Rho talked about it himself that Fulgrim's fall to chaos was because he gave in to the daemon inside his sword, and so turned to decadence & hedonism as a way of coping with his actions. He was the one who killed Ferrus, and later Roboutte, and even if he was purged of chaotic corruption, he would still have to live with that. Well who better to help him cope with his own actions, than himself? Who would help him return to the light and stay in it, better than a version of himself who had come to terms with his own actions, and knows how to cope with it? I really do think so much potential revenue does ride on loyalist Fulgrim returning to the Imperial fold
It would be a hella of a twist if it turns out Roboute knew all along that the Alpha legion were double agents or at least found out during his confrontation with Omagon during the Scouring.
“Magnus please come home.” “WHY!?” “Guilliman’s elf waifu can cure your sons of Ahriman’s screw-up” “And?” “We also have Crotalids” “. . .Crikey I’m convinced.”
Hard disagree on the Screwup... Magnus was willing to let them all die ... at least Ahriman did something ... plus he is actively looking for a way to remedy his failing.
You’re wrong about the Alpha Legion, they have always been loyal, that’s why they were created - to do the things that no other primarch could countenance, and you even quoted some of the supporting lore. The Alpha Legion is so loyal that they’ve even allowed some of themselves to have their physical bodies corrupted by chaos, a fear no other legionnaire could succeed at without it being clear to the chaos gods that they were being fooled. The Hydra awakes.
But here's the thing: The fate of his legion is the very thing that binds Magnus to Chaos. It was only to preserve his legion, to preserve his sons, that Magnus chose Chaos; he would have paid any other price but his sons. So if we're talking about the redemption of traitor *legions* , the Thousand Sons and Magnus should by far be the top contenders. If there had been *any* way to preserve his sons while joining back with the Emperor, Magnus would have done it and, I do believe, would still do it. Magnus didn't choose Chaos, he chose his sons, as any true father would.
I agree. I didn't read the book so I might be missing something, but Magnus was more loyal to this son's than the emperor. This isn't an evil trait, just an unfortunate one. And honestly, if the emperor was a totally piece of shit to him repeatedly. What kind of trust was he going to have for the emperor plan. If Magnas's sons were a lost cause, and he had free will again, I don't think he would have a reason to keep being a baddy. Maybe not a goodie, but not a baddy.
gotta agree with the alpha legion being number one. My theory for them is that only one of the twins wanted to side with horus, and the other, with the emperor.
Maybe omegon didn't know his father , so good chance he is the one that chose to betray , alpharius lives I have a theory and it was omegon that was slain. Alpharius was loved by his father and he didn't hate him . No way alpharius would fall to his brother or for that mater out maneuvered by him Stop being said there's still the matter of the cabal and their prophecy that if alpha legion did not go traitor the imperium would fall
Being the Alpha legion anything is possible, but what if the twins decided to play both sides to cover up thier loyalty towards the emperor?. In doing so they could act as they wished and no one would suspect them for being for one side, Chaos would see them fight on their side along the other chaos legion and giving the loyalists the image of them being traitors and vice versa. Then again no one really knows when it comes to the Alpha legion, my thought was simply based on the idea of them splitting up on purpose to use part of their legion to act as the bad guys working for chaos in a convincing way just enough to hide the fact that they worked for the emperor all along yet made sure to keep everyone both friend and foe in the dark.
There is a theory Kurze was wearing a soulstone (in his crown) when he died, 10,000 years safe from the chaos gods might have done wonders for his sanity. Also I do wonder if the AL had a 3rd primarch only known by the other two
@@chrispilkington8662 To be honest... 20 primarchs. 2 - no data. 18 legions = 18 primarchs, including Alpharius. + Omegon = 19 + Third One = 20. Possibly greatest plottwist (including Sanguinius beating Horus, going Black Rage and crippling Emperor)
Guilliman yelled across the battlefield to the enemy before him. The word his father had told him to say had the desired affect. Every one of the enemies who heard him immediately clicked on their vox and repeated the word to all their forces. Everything became still and silent for a few moments before two figures emerged and strode across the battlefield to stand before Guilliman. They took off their helmets and stared at him, two identical sets of eyes reading every muscle of his face. Guilliman repeated the word his father had told him. In perfect unison came their response, "For the Emperor!" As if in response, the rest of the enemy marines and even some of his Ultramarines called out, "Hydra Dominatus!" The Emperor must have had new orders for two of his most secret weapons.
@@thatguynobodylikes8892 I remember learning about the Legions and i think Baldamort or Oclcus did a pov of a Loyalist getting pinned down as the Alpha Legion fought doing good and bad things as the confusion ran rampart. You know it bad when Space Marines who process stuff really fast are stunned for moments as they see their "allies" just blasg their comardes away and... can you even trust anyone?
Magnus was loyal to his legion and his people. This was always his character. There was no choice in this context. The emperor messed up and so did the space wolves but if that situation or choice could change…..well
the fault of the space wolves was instead of following the original orders of Big E be believed the new orders that horus gave him to put Magnus the Red to the sword. The Reason Russ believed horus is becuase at the time horus had not revealed himself a traitor.
@@lairoftheobsidianwolf5784 Russ also didn't like Magnus on a personal level. He probably feels guilty for this later, but he probably was a little happy when he got the orders to destroy Prospero and kill Magnus.
@@lairoftheobsidianwolf5784 Russ gradually found more reasons to justify his hate of Magnus as they tried to get into contact with him but when it came down for it, Hatred won and Russ came down Axe screaming to kill Magnus.
That was then, he has since done such things as sacrificing a million people, having their throats cut individually, to do a magic spell! (Psychic Awakening) And that's just one of his most recent doings - there's 10 millennia of that sort of thing.
Hey Rho! This has been a great little miniseries, I’d love to see you do the reverse next. Which of the loyal legions are most likely to fall to chaos?
@@pyraastarte9737 the iron warriors weren’t that bad. If we are talking about Pertarabo himself it’s the emperors fault for not being a good dad. If he didn’t leave Terra the traitors would have breached the palace and won. His legions big grievance is annihilating the fists at the iron cage
I still run with the head cannon that Perti is STILL loyalist, to a measure. Emps saw the coming of the Nids and Necrons and knew that chaos was required to merge with humanity to have the range of weapons needed. Which is how Emps got the chaos gods to give him the power to fill the primarchs with warp-stuff. Further to that, Perti's gift was all knowledge and the ability to see the Eye. These gifts made him the perfect candidate to be the Primarch tasked with entering the warp and bending it to the will of the imperium. Emps trained him and his legion to take on the foulest of tasks, and to hold no loyalty to the Imperium itself, but to the completion of the task at hand regardless of the cost. Perti knew what was coming so built himself iron guard without hearts because he knew his men would be fodder for the warp. But the games of the Chaos gods overtook Emps and the fall of Horus was not expected (or it was*) and so the task became moot. When the emperor eventually wakes up, he call up the greatest weapons that the combination of warp tech and humanity built with the hands of the architect.
Seems like the emperor dropped the ball with magnus. He could've just said "yep, we'll try" then let nature takes it's course and still have Magus heading his new marines. What is that image of purtarbo holding magnus from?
Number one for me is the Fallen legion. They are mostly untainted by chaos and are working with the enemy out of desperation and little choice. Daddy Lion will come back, forgive them and lead one of the most massive and destructive crusades not seen for 10000 years. Or Asmodai could have a word with all the traitor legions and "redeem" them. He's a really nice guy.
Magnus and his legion were already engaged with demons and forbidden spells that kept pushing the influence of Tzeentch stronger to the materium...I'm sure it was Tzeentch or indirectly who gave Magnus a temporary pause on the flesh change in exchange for an eye.
Pretty sure Tzeentch was the one responsible for the flesh change to begin with . The sneaky bastard had Magnus by the balls all along he was either too arrogant or/and ignorant to see it.
Slaashesh needed Fulgrim yo be disgusted at himself to give in. Nurgle literally just sat on the Death Guard till they gave in. Khrone was like "Great my Second choice legion came in" But Tzeentch had Magnus pretty much from Birth and he had no way to get out of the Fate Weaver web.
You forgot to mention Konrad Curze's soul gem. The crown that contains it could have been cleansed of the Night Haunter or sent to the Chaos Gods to become a Daemon Prince upon his death. Freeing him to come back as a more sane version of his self. With the Legion being divided between his two halves.
Curze sought vindication by his death. Now imagine how hilarious if he found out that he too was a perpetual. He freaked out when he discovered Vulkan was one because, altho unlikely, showed that he could unknowingly be one too. If death couldn't grand him vindication, maybe finding out he was a perpetual would torment him enough to seek redemption. Just look at what happened to Sevatar on the Dark Angels ship.
@@fbussier80 well, all the Primarchs are perpetuals in their own way for sure, they'll all be back one day after all, and we've seen basic humans be able to come back from warp so for a Primarch with the aid of the Emperor and/or Chaos isn't too much of a stretch
@@boutinpowered8373 Where does it say/reference that "all Primarchs are perpetuals in their own way"? Lorgar was genuinely worried about Angron dying to the nails. Omegon actually felt Alpharius dying. Ferrus is actually dead, the Emperor could only summon an avatar in his image. Even his clones were insta-killed by Demon Fulgrim. Sanguinus is dead and gone. Horus was wiped out of existance by the Emperor (Even demonhood can't respawn him) and his clone got annihilated by Abaddon the Harmless. So... how are they "all perpetual in their own ways" exacly? Did i miss something?
Well, I have always viewed the Alpha Legion as the best candidate for a redemption arch. But Also the Fallen from the Dark angles I would love to see Luther get redemption even if it kills him in the end.
Didn’t we find out in the alpharius book of the Horus heresy set that alpharius and omegon switched names Which means alpharius is alive and omegon is dead especially seeing as the special armor the primarch wore was omegon’s armor he had from the planet he landed on while alpharius was on terra the whole time? I’m confused but that’s alpha legion for you. Hydra Dominatus!
You have to remember the switch your talkin bout happened WAAAAY late in the HH. And when the switch did happen omegon HEAVILY went against his twin but still stayed to try to bring more alpha legion with him Edit : also remember and idr the name so i could be wrong on name but with the fight for the emperors beacon when st. Celestine toly loyalist to let the alpha legion a "traitor legion" to keep the beacon at all costs that was a detachment of omegons loyal sons. As well remember back to Big E and malcadors game i believe they called it war there were 2 hydra cards. 1 with malcador (the traitor) and one with Big E (the loyalist) and when he was called out on it Big E said it was his secret move so it leaves credit to either omegon is alive OR omegon loyalist are still imperium loyalist. Molt likely this detachment bein thebalpha legion that turned renegade i forget their name but they only atk the imperium if deemed ABSOLUTELY neccessary
The thing we have to consider is what we actually actually know about the twins. Omegon (imo Alpharius) wore a plain power armor which in HOH belonged to Alpharius, and Omegon had the pale spear (sarrasata) and Pythian scales, and Alpharius in the old lore (imo Omegon) was somewhat cocky and had a inferiority complex due to arriving so late in the game. Which we know Alpharius was indeed first found. Alot of people will say well the book could be lying and the author said there would be no point in writing it if it was all lies.
@@IronWithin The opening paragraph was the unabridged truth. He was not Alpharius. The beginning paragraph takes place at the end. He was without a doubt Omegon posing as Alpharius, so that way He would have a genuine reaction to meeting his brother Primarch, as the Alpharius had already met them.
I just hate it that the emps said oh yea we have to kill your sons lol. At least they should had the honour of fighting and dying for the emperor then I can see a magnus who would follow his father
Imo, the Emperor knew that Magnus would reject any offer that'd cost his sons. So what was the point in letting Magnus into the throneroom? I think it was to both show Magnus that he *could* indeed still be redemed, even now 10.000 years later, and to give him Revelation's ring for whatever significance that might have in the future.
The Alpha legion seems like a great choice, have it explained that very few of the more senior members that turned traitor survived the herasy itself, and the resulting alpha legion spent 10k years weakening chaos from inside. Eventually chaos got wise, and the loyalists send the corrupted on suicide runs against other warbands and comes pubicly back into the fold.
Regarding Alpha Legion, I personally believe both Alpharius and Omegon are dead. The fact that the legion got shattered completely and that many warbands turn straight up to chaos doesn't give me any confidence that there's a living primarch of the legion still out there somewhere, guiding his legion. The Alpha Legion just became too much of a mess imo.
I think Alpharius and Omegon made it out alive or basically did a memory transfer thing so their personality will override the implanted marine. Especially since their whole thing is "schemes within schemes"
I did like the idea of the loyalist primarch leading a traitor Legion. But now I think if Alpharias was never a traitor, so I don't know what to think.
Perterabo redeemed?? >Never felt empathy for anyone ever >Was petty and spiteful and had to win at everything (destroyed the statues when his brother's was better) >Made his sons murder 10% of their brothers for literally no reason before even meeting them >Let his sons die by the thousands for fear of his fragile ego being hurt >Massacred his whole planet's civilian population >Murdered his little sister, the only person who ever showed him affection, in cold blood >None of this was influenced by chaos like Fulgrim was >Hated Rogal Dorn because he needed to be the best at everything because he was a petty manbaby Redemption implies that the person was once good but became bad or fell to evil. Perterabo was ALWAYS a petty, spiteful, egotistical, psychopathic douche. He didn't need chaos to make him what he was. There is nothing to redeem because he was never a good person.
If the Emperor made Magnus choose between his loyalty to his father an his loyalty to his sons, I can see the fact that Magnus chose his own sons as a kind of test - which he passed.
Regarding Perturabo, we know for certain that there was quite a lot of loyalist Iron Warriors during the Heresy. Heck, there are hints that there exist loyalist chapters within the Imperium that descended from the Iron Warriors. The legion didn't want to betray the Emperor. If Perturabo had a chance to talk to the Emperor after the razing of Olympia, I believe he would've remained loyal.
Malcador specifically says the Primarchs were pitted against each other and treated well or poorly by the Emperor by design. To put them against one another. Perturabo just needed some recognition. Just a hint of self worth from his brothers and the Emperor and he would have stayed loyal. I think the most likely candidate for redemption is Perty and the Iron Warriors.
@@jldavis337 You omitted the last part of his speech where he only said those words to comfort someone in their death bed, which means he lied I mean, he _literally_ said he lied in verbatim too
@@takebacktheholyland9306 he lied about her soul not being torn apart when she died. The talk about Primarchs was a confession. How would it be comforting to tell her the plan and how it’s been compromised? How is it comforting to hear it was all a lie? She saw what was awaiting her and Malcador didn’t want her to be afraid of THAT.
Where did you read that? Only a couple resisted Perturabos will during the razing of Olympia and those who did were killed... afaik the only Loyal Iron Warrior was Warsmith Dantioch. SMH they all felt used and abused by the Imperium and that is why they rebelled.
@@MrFallenone What? Only Dantioch? There are talks about a whole bunch of Iron Warriors assisting Maccrage during the heresy. Dantioch was definitely not the only one.
Something that I've kicked around in my noodle for a while now is that if the Thousand Sons did get redeemed that those without bodies could get absorbed into the Legion of the Damned or the Imperial Demons.
Alpharius is almost certainly out there still. Robute killed one of their empowered legionaries like we know already they can do, and even he said it felt too easy. This pretty much proves to me alpharius is still out there. Possibly still loyal, possibly just insane and corrupted.
Alpharius was killed by Dorn. Even Omegon chapter in the story stated that “For the first time ever, he could not feel his twin, he was truly alone” or something along those lines.
@@craynak actually in the new book it is revealed that they switched names when omegon was found, and the og alpharius was actually the first son found and was on terra. so although he was calling himself omegon in that book, they revealed/retconned that it was alpharius going by omegon at the time.
@@craynak They switched to lessen the risk of Horus finding out their secret when the one found later during the Heresy decided it was time they reveal their presence to Horus ... by atempting to assassinate him, as all the others were already found ... and observed. Which was their task granted by the Emperor ... to observe all the new found Primarchs.
I'm gonna guess the top 4 before watching: -TSons: if Magnus gets his noble shard returned -Alpha: possible double agent loyalists -Children: Fulgrim might not have fallen if not corrupted...or fulgrim clone does something -Warriors: Perty prob just wants some gratitude Edit: 3 out of 4, not bad
Really interesting video. Considering that Rho allowed for a potential rebirth of primarchs, including recreating them in a second primarch program; I am a little surprised to see Angron right at the bottom. Angron was absolutely a victim of his circumstances. Imagine Angron without the butcher's nails, and imagine if he had not been forced to abandon his gladiator brothers due to the Emperor's meddling. I can see him being a completely different character, though also a character that we have essentially no knowledge of. He would be an entirely different person. I would most like Curze to be redeemed though. I feel like it could actually be done with the current lore (his soul in a soulstone in the crown, and the precedent of Vulkan being cured of insanity after being reborn), and that it would add a nice twist without completely ruining the long-running story lines. As likely as it is that the Alpha Legion are secret loyalists, it would damage the overall story to have them become loyalists in the era that we play in, as it would take away all of the mystery and essentially force GW writers to 'explain everything'. For all the other characters, it is simply too unlikely that they will ever be in a situation where they can be reborn or redeemed. I do like the idea of an Eldar prophecy about Lorgar realising that he was tricked and in his ascended daemonic form comes back to save humanity; but having that actually happen would ruin the current state of the game too much. So back to Curze; bring him back, have him accepted by Guilliman despite him being VERY uncomfortable about it, and still have half or more of the Night Lords remain 'traitor' because they are too far gone or love their freedom or whatever (which allows everyone to keep playing their armies!). Curze could even get in some nice quips about how he was right about the Emperor being wrong, a fool and a hypocrite, (in private obviously) but still ultimately siding with a pure, justice-oriented and law-abiding mankind. I can even imagine him and the inquisition getting along well with their brutal methods, and that causing an interesting rift between him with the Imperial-establishment, and Guilliman who sees it as backwards, barbaric and against the Emperor's vision, but who nonetheless accepts Curze out of necessity. I would still prefer it if we had no primarchs return, and I think the books have gone too far in giving us glimpses into their personalities. I preferred it when they were these semi-mythical characters that we could never truly know, but who inspire us through the little snippets that are remembered of them. As we have them returning though, Curze is the best candidate for a redeemed primarch!
I definitely wouldn't have the Night Lords this high. Sure they were designed as a terror legion but... they, like the Word Bearers (though not in a full switch to Chaos way) had fallen from the light as a Legion before the Heresy even started. As a fellow Lore Master noted "they can now do whatever they wish, to whoever they wish, whenever they wish" and they've always been predisposed to do so. Iron Warriors are tricky given they and Pertuarbo got a really rough deal in the scheme of things and have a very justified anger about it, though some of it they caused themselves by never speaking up, and for the Imperium that's almost worse than an outside corrupting force in terms of being able to redeem them. Though at the same time they're still loyal to Pertuarbo and aren't nearly as badly corrupted, mentally or physically, as other legions on the list. Thousand Sons strike me as the easiest of the Legions to redeem, since I think The Emperor undoing the Rubric would probably sway many within the Legion on the spot as many, though not all, are actively trying to save their Battle Brothers. Likewise Magnus only ended up falling because he tried to defend the Legion. Alpha Legion... to quote Monty Python "MY BRAIN HURTS!".
"and they've always been predisposed to do so." LOL no. The tainted stock of new recruits from Nostramo was the reason they became savages who tortured for the sake of inflicting pain. The old Terran legionaries and the early good stock recruits were following Konrads teachings.
I like the prospects of Kurze being redeemed and brought back to what he was suppose to be. What that is would be very intriguing. Maybe an assassin with a blind sense of Justice.
I wouldn't put the Night Lords very high on my list even though they're one of my favorite Legions. After reading the Night Lords books, I've found that the VIII is too consumed by hatred of the Imperium (or anything that isn't torture for that matter) to be redeemed. Should Konrad return they could be reunited and become a big pain in the ass for the Imperium. The most likely is probably the Alpha Legion, but their lore makes my head hurt so I don't really have an opinion on them. If Magnus and Ahriman could be brought back to the Imperium and the random mutations in the Thousand Sons gene-seed be corrected, save for a few Tzeench believers the Thousand Sons could definitely return. Though it would be a very cold relationship. Personally, I would like to see the Iron Warriors return to the fold, hell they help the Imperium sometimes, and are the least Chaos-y of the Traitor Legions, if the Emperor forgives Perturabo and brings him back to his side, then the majority of the IV comes back and tactically they would be the most advantageous of the Traitor Legions to have back. Their logistics rival the Ultramarines, Perturabo is a genius when come to technology and siege warfare, and they are some the most devastating forces in the Milky Way. Plus having a meeting with the Minotaurs and their Primarch would be fun. I can only see some of the Deathguard return with Mortarion, and for the Emperor's Children with Clonegrim.
I like the pet theory that only one of the two Alpharius or Omegon truly turned but it wasn't as simple as one of them turned and the other went along with it but was secretly loyal as a spy. I think the one who took the lead in overtly turning the legion was secretly loyal and the one who was only supposedly going along with it as a secret loyalist, overt traitor was secretly actually a traitor. Plots on plots, twists on twists and layers on layers as the forces of chaos got to one but not the other and we can't know which. Nobody can know which was which. And even if we could know which was truly loyal, we can't know which is dead.
I just assume like every daemon primarch that not logar, he was tricked and got screwed over. Pert does seem like the type of guy who would let his pride over take his insight and get daemon hood against his will. Legit besides logar none of daemon primarchs wanted this.
I doubt pertuarbo would come back. If he did he would have to unchain Dorn he keeps locked up in his basement. Would love the clone Fulgrim to come back as a loyalist.
The truth is the Alpha Legion should have been number 9, but since it''s the Alpha Legion, the lie is it should be number 1, but the truth, should it ever be revealed is the actually the lie and the lie the truth, so in reality, they should have been
I've been a watcher of your vids since you started your channel, Wolf Lord, and please keep them coming. I was hoping you might post a pic of the plaque RUclips send for getting 100k subscribers.... well done!
I believe that Fulgrim was never released from the control of the deamon. And that when the clone was created his soul found the pure vessel and that clone Fulgrim was truly Fulgrim reborn. His pure soul finally free from the warp. I also believe there are loyalist Emporer's children out there amongst the stars. And hidden in other legions as chapters. He is also the Phoenix. And a Phoenix is always reborn.
This video has made me realize a crucial possibility. What if Wolf Lord Rho has been brainwashed by the Alpha Legion? He may not have claimed to be Alpharius but he certainly made this final list with absolute confidence. A trait seen in brainwashed victims of the Legion. Granted his evidence is pretty good.
Iron Warriors. Didn’t want to turn traitor. Have fought against chaos while falling to chaos. The emperor could easily offer Perty Dorn’s role as Praetorian of Terra and he would be chuffed to bits. Guilliman knows he’s not the chaos warped piece of shit like Morty or Angron and besides I’m sure Perty would be open to consistent heresy checks before receiving Primaris. All he wanted to do was create stuff and he could work alongside the Mechanicus to create new weapons of war.
that plotline was resolved in Fury of Magnus. it became apparent, that no shard was pure or loyal, all of them was equally capable of choosing Emperor or Chaos. They ultimately chose Chaos, as the Emperors ultimatum was unacceptable.
@@carlstanford7607 are you referring to plot points from the Ahriman trilogy? Or the shard used up to create Janus? Magnus made his choice completely and fully. There are only one of him left in the setting, and that is The Crimson King, Demon Magnus.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I think its only the shards which were connected to the Magnus at the time of the choice. I highly doubt he collected all of them.
A thought on the 15th would be if the rubrics could be returned to life, would they stay with Magnus or would they rebel and seek redemption? Edit: and then I get to the part where Ro talks about it. 😖
The simple answer is that none of the traitor legions can be redeemed except the Thousand Sons as far as the major legions go. The Deathguard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Emperors Children are just way way too far gone and mutated beyond redemption. You could say that maybe the Red Corsairs would be possible as they run under the chaos undivided banner. Though the Black Legion are also chaos undivided I don't see them turning back either. The only real traitors that will probably make the jump back to true Loyalist at some point is the Alpha Legion. We know for a fact there's still Alpha Legion who are loyalist, especially after finding out that the true first found was Alpharius and not Horus, found early enough to be raised by the Emperor and told he was to infiltrate all the other legions and do whatever it took to protect the Imperium. Like I said, all of the other legions are far too mutated and corrupted for them to be brought back. It's possible the Emperor could cleanse the traitor Primarchs of their corruption but there's no reason to heal/fix the fallen astartes, might as well just get rid of them and make new ones from uncorrupted gene seed. That's just how I feel about it though, love hearing the perspective of other people. *Fuck Erebus btw*
Nr. 1 is the iron guard because they hate all god's and they just feel betrayed by everyone. Nr. 2 is the thousand sons under the conditions that Magnus gets his missing soul shards back. We should not forget that Magnus is literally missing his "Loyalty shard" and the problem with the space wolves is because of Horus deception. Nr. 3 the Alpha Legion they could be very well the ultimate spy act.
@@MajinOthinus that’s what I keep hearing, but I’m super sketched by the guy from all I’ve read so far- I’m only on book 12 of HH. The Dark Angels lore confuses me more than it enlightens me tbh
Honestly the Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are the best and obvious choices. I will say I think the Thousand Sons are above the Night Lords as the terror lords don't have a Primarch leading them and without Konrad coming back and pushing for it or a re-emergence of Sevetar bringing the Legion back together but that's debatable way as he hates the Emperor.
Strangely, when I discovered W40K back in ... 1995, my first thought about the Night Lords was that they are horrible and all deserve to die in a horrible manner. But the more I got older, the more I learned to appreciate them and in that video, we have another example of the complexity of this chapter.
I’m thinking Konrad would be 2nd. Seeing how death cured Vulken’s insanity, I feel Konrad allowed his death to potentially cure himself. Perhaps his soul in a Eldar soul gem, needing a body to take over or operate like a wraith. But that’s just my opinion and theory. Alpha I think is already redeemed and is doing spy work for emperor even if the loyalist do not know. The rest of your list is solid.
i believe clone grim might be able to get some of the less corrupt emperors children to be saved those plus some chapters that are most likely using emperors children gene seed would also follow clonegrim
Well for the night lords you defo got a point, pure gene seed, chaos at bay and in addition to that: they were the least murderous in term of body count with the alpha legion in comparison to the other legions. Vulkan is nice alright, he also has a kink for napalming people. Conrad is not cool because he likes to have after school vivisection studies, however he didn t genocide entire planets so if one thinks in terms of humanity: which approach is best ? As a last thought: Perty, Morty, altarboy, Conrad and Angron: Could the problem lies in the emperor himself and not in his sons ? Hiding your mistakes through a " you were made like that" sounds like a man, because the emperor is a man, that has it bitter and tries not to lose his face. And concerning the Alpha Legion, their emblema has 3 heads, could the big G be the third head ? brothers and twins..
It does make more since for the Alpha legion to be the one traitor legion to be redeemed. For it was Omegon that was killed posing as Alpharius. Alpharius has a high chance of returning. I can see Conrad Curze return only possible with the Eldar spirit stone theory becoming full cannon. If Guilaman & Yennead end up stumbling upon the soul stone and she does her revival skill. Conrad Curze could be a phantom like primearch before he gets a new Eldar tech/Primaris primearch body.
I mean, with Magnus, all the Big E had to do was show him how badly he was played a fool by the Chaos God he very well worships, thinking he had a choice in his story. While the Emperor wouldn’t be a better option, at least the cover would be lifted from his eyes.
The 15th are irreconcilable. They are farther gone in my view than the 17th. They sold themselves not only to Tzeench, but entirely had sold out their father BEFORE the siege, which is why the Emperor saw them as beyond redemption. As far as the 8th,.I still want to know what happened to Jago Sevatarion. I feel that HE HIMSELF could bring a certain percentage of the legion around. The 8th are like the wayward/prodigal sons of the Emperor. If they would return, there would be much rejoicing. Maybe it's because I see the Carcharadons as a Nightlords successor, but I could easily see the 8th, if given enough slack, going galactic Punisher/Batman on the Emperor's foes.
I suspect 'Alpharius' in the Bequin novels is actually Omegon. Why else would he personally be assisting Eisenhorn/ Ravenor if nothing else than to directly combat a threat against the very idea of the Imperium. Besides, who else could go toe to toe with Constantin Valdor than a Primarch?
Magnus chose his sons over his father. Showing that he was still noble. If Emps were to reverse the Rubric and save Magnus' sons, he'd pledge his loyalty instantly. Magnus to me is the Primarch who most sees his Legion as his family. Losing them was not an option, so he rejected his father. His father saving them would break the hold Chaos has on him.
TBH you matched me legion for legion - mostly - it was a dead hest for last place - black legion and Worm bearers and I could not separate thr rest untill the fnal two, I cannot believe that Perturabo really would stay in that position and would finally repent
Cannot argue with your rankings at all. Had both Iron warriors and Alpha legion in top two also. There's no doubt in my mind after reading the alpharius novel that Omegon is Loyal. But the question is, would you take a pure and loyal Curze or a pure and loyal Fulgrim!?
The ultimate balance breaker is perturabo. He probably the only one who could fix the astronomican and maintain the golden throne. With those fixed the emperior could finaly begin to heal
i think mortarion and the deathguard should move up to the nightlords spot and switch them. Mortarion is in a much better position to turn against chaos especially after events of godblight where he is no longer the darling of nurgle and saw emperor is still very much capable of kicking some ass despite being called a corpse. A teamwork with Isha to screw over nurgle would be cool. i feel that while he wouldnt serve the emperor he would go out with a bang to do as much damage as possibile to chaos out of pure spite. The nightlords dont want or seek redemption nor do they suffer nearly to the degree like the deathguard do who were basically forced into chaos service. the nightlords rebelled because they never had a true love for the imperium in the first place and acted like the tools they were using the tactics they were almost encouraged to do by the emperor for making them that way.
Not really... the Traitors still have more active Primarchs. This would give Loyalists 2 active and 1 incapacitated with the Lion. Not to mention Guilliman and Alpharius DON'T get along or like each other's tactics. The Alpha Legion becoming Loyalist and Alpharius/Omegon coming back would create a lot of drama. Assuming all the primarchs return... short of saying Dorn is really dead... then the loyalists would likely have more.
Bringing back Kurz? Every single one of them would default back to the imperium out of fear of him. Iron warriors? They felt more like they would still be anti-imperium. As for the last one? Hard to say as you could claim half of them joined to sabotage the forces of chaos and the other half joined in purpose.
I think the Word Bearers are the most likely to be redeemed. They have always venerated the Emperor as a God, and I think the "Lectitio Divinitatus" still forms a central part of their psyche. Their journey very much mirrors the Ba'hai beliefs, where each iteration of faith has been led by a different prophet - Abraham, Jesus, Muhummad - each evolution taking humanity further along the path. The initial denial of divinity, the fall to chaos, and then subsequent acceptance of the Emperor as a true chaos god may lead the Word Bearers to renounce the ruinous powers and dedicate themselves to their original, true God. I wonder if the Emperor manifesting "miracles" more and more, and literal "Saints" flying about, if the next stage is for the Emperor to actually die, and ascend to true divinity - an action that redeems the Word Bearers and "cures" Lorgar - as Lorgar would then be canonised as a prophet, not a heretic.
I think any of the legions whose Primarchs have become a full Daemon Prince are past redeemtion. They've just gone too far. They won't go against their Primarch, and their Primarchs have become a literal extension of their Chaos Gods. That leaves just two options, really. The Night Lords and the Alpha Legion.
I wouldn't put Magnus below Mortarion, 4th sound about right for me. Magnus and the Thousands Sons are much like their icon, the Uroberos, in the way that deep down inside, they were always looking for a chance of redemption. The curse of Tzeetch was just too strong, so the more they tried they deeper they pulled themselves to the heresy.
If the Emperor wouldn't heal the Thousand Sons then, he surely won't now. For all the Emperors knowledge and power, he always seemed to fall short in wisdom and compassion.
Question could you do a similar list with the loyalist Primarchs instead ala which Primarchs where the closets to fall to chaos? It could be had the Emperor not chosen Dorn to be the praetorian of Terra, when Horus called he would have joined the side of the traitors, seeing the Emperor´s choice of not choosing him as an unforgivable slight against his honor or something like that.
Clone Fulgrim IS the true Fulgrim as much as snake demon version. They are two halves of the same whole. Clone Fulgrim should be called Loyalist Fulgrim, as he needs no redemption. And, ALL Primarchs are engineered from the start, making a "clone" is not the same as cloning a human. Primarchs are vessels for the warp spirit that makes them who they are. Loyalist Fulgrim is worthy of being that vessel. He is therefore Fulgrim. Not a copy.
That is fane-theory combined with canon lore. You could equally be wrong. The Clone is ultimately a dead-end plot point. It's a trigger GW will most likely never pull.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I would never say never, I mean.... we got squats back.....
@@MrOwneddeath true, but they had models, a history on the table top and was not just a side plot in the second book in a trilogy from an author, who no longer writes for GW.
Novels characters very rarely become major Lore elements.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I mean, if you disregard the godawful short story Reflection Cracked, it might just as well be true. But yea, I doubt GW will go anywhere with clone Fulgrim.
@@Matihood1 Idk about that. I definitely think GW's keeping Clonegrim in their pocket for something. Just think about the amount of revenue and attention from fans they would receive if the loyalist clone of Fulgrim were to return, and the 3rd legion was reborn anew?
It would also make for a great story about learning how to love one's self; Rho talked about it himself that Fulgrim's fall to chaos was because he gave in to the daemon inside his sword, and so turned to decadence & hedonism as a way of coping with his actions. He was the one who killed Ferrus, and later Roboutte, and even if he was purged of chaotic corruption, he would still have to live with that. Well who better to help him cope with his own actions, than himself? Who would help him return to the light and stay in it, better than a version of himself who had come to terms with his own actions, and knows how to cope with it?
I really do think so much potential revenue does ride on loyalist Fulgrim returning to the Imperial fold
It would be a hella of a twist if it turns out Roboute knew all along that the Alpha legion were double agents or at least found out during his confrontation with Omagon during the Scouring.
I liked the lore when alphareus (maybe(?)) Said to dorn "we need to talk" right before dorn attacked and killed him. Maybe was trying to tell him?
maybe alpharious killed roboute and took his place
Roboute wasn't replaced by Alpharius, he was always Alpharius
@@adampatrick9639 ooooo good one
@@thatguynobodylikes8892 what if....Roboute took Alpharious's place?
I’m pleasantly surprised how high you have the Night Lords. I would love to see a reborn Kurze, pure of purpose. Batman 40k 🤣
More like Vlad Tsepesh than Batman.
Corax is Batman
What if kurze is still alive
Nah, emo girl is good where she is. Dead and Decapitated
Corona Nox theory is still alive
“Magnus please come home.”
“WHY!?”
“Guilliman’s elf waifu can cure your sons of Ahriman’s screw-up”
“And?”
“We also have Crotalids”
“. . .Crikey I’m convinced.”
Hard disagree on the Screwup... Magnus was willing to let them all die ... at least Ahriman did something ... plus he is actively looking for a way to remedy his failing.
Love the tts reference
You’re wrong about the Alpha Legion, they have always been loyal, that’s why they were created - to do the things that no other primarch could countenance, and you even quoted some of the supporting lore. The Alpha Legion is so loyal that they’ve even allowed some of themselves to have their physical bodies corrupted by chaos, a fear no other legionnaire could succeed at without it being clear to the chaos gods that they were being fooled.
The Hydra awakes.
Hydra Dominatus Brother
Problem is that loyal Primarch is dead and his evil twin is rocking about in his place.
@@psychedashell No, I’m Spartacus!! …. oops, …. I am Alpharius… :)
@@robertkb64 No, I am Alpharius. :)
@@psychedashell is omegan evil? Have we heard much about him after the heresy?
But here's the thing: The fate of his legion is the very thing that binds Magnus to Chaos. It was only to preserve his legion, to preserve his sons, that Magnus chose Chaos; he would have paid any other price but his sons. So if we're talking about the redemption of traitor *legions* , the Thousand Sons and Magnus should by far be the top contenders. If there had been *any* way to preserve his sons while joining back with the Emperor, Magnus would have done it and, I do believe, would still do it. Magnus didn't choose Chaos, he chose his sons, as any true father would.
I agree. I didn't read the book so I might be missing something, but Magnus was more loyal to this son's than the emperor. This isn't an evil trait, just an unfortunate one. And honestly, if the emperor was a totally piece of shit to him repeatedly. What kind of trust was he going to have for the emperor plan. If Magnas's sons were a lost cause, and he had free will again, I don't think he would have a reason to keep being a baddy. Maybe not a goodie, but not a baddy.
Eh, with that logic the same could be said for mortarion and the death guard.
No
@@aljrvh Except that we know from Warhawk, that Mortarion willingly strove towards becoming a slave to Chaos, when he let Typhus back in.
@@TheDarthMarko Compelling argument!
gotta agree with the alpha legion being number one. My theory for them is that only one of the twins wanted to side with horus, and the other, with the emperor.
Maybe omegon didn't know his father , so good chance he is the one that chose to betray , alpharius lives I have a theory and it was omegon that was slain. Alpharius was loved by his father and he didn't hate him . No way alpharius would fall to his brother or for that mater out maneuvered by him
Stop being said there's still the matter of the cabal and their prophecy that if alpha legion did not go traitor the imperium would fall
Being the Alpha legion anything is possible, but what if the twins decided to play both sides to cover up thier loyalty towards the emperor?. In doing so they could act as they wished and no one would suspect them for being for one side, Chaos would see them fight on their side along the other chaos legion and giving the loyalists the image of them being traitors and vice versa.
Then again no one really knows when it comes to the Alpha legion, my thought was simply based on the idea of them splitting up on purpose to use part of their legion to act as the bad guys working for chaos in a convincing way just enough to hide the fact that they worked for the emperor all along yet made sure to keep everyone both friend and foe in the dark.
There is a theory Kurze was wearing a soulstone (in his crown) when he died, 10,000 years safe from the chaos gods might have done wonders for his sanity.
Also I do wonder if the AL had a 3rd primarch only known by the other two
It is hydra dominatus. I know a hydra has many, many heads, but it’s typically 3…
@@jackb1272 as well as the hydra on the banner having three heads. And having a third hidden primarch works well as operational security
@@chrispilkington8662 To be honest... 20 primarchs. 2 - no data. 18 legions = 18 primarchs, including Alpharius.
+ Omegon = 19
+ Third One = 20.
Possibly greatest plottwist (including Sanguinius beating Horus, going Black Rage and crippling Emperor)
Guilliman yelled across the battlefield to the enemy before him. The word his father had told him to say had the desired affect. Every one of the enemies who heard him immediately clicked on their vox and repeated the word to all their forces.
Everything became still and silent for a few moments before two figures emerged and strode across the battlefield to stand before Guilliman. They took off their helmets and stared at him, two identical sets of eyes reading every muscle of his face. Guilliman repeated the word his father had told him.
In perfect unison came their response, "For the Emperor!" As if in response, the rest of the enemy marines and even some of his Ultramarines called out, "Hydra Dominatus!"
The Emperor must have had new orders for two of his most secret weapons.
What’s this from?
@@williamwilson1870 I think he came up with it.
@@Subject_Keter Ah, that would make sense.
i love the part "the rest of the enemy marines and even some of his Ultramarines called out, "Hydra Dominatus!"
@@thatguynobodylikes8892 I remember learning about the Legions and i think Baldamort or Oclcus did a pov of a Loyalist getting pinned down as the Alpha Legion fought doing good and bad things as the confusion ran rampart.
You know it bad when Space Marines who process stuff really fast are stunned for moments as they see their "allies" just blasg their comardes away and... can you even trust anyone?
Magnus was loyal to his legion and his people. This was always his character. There was no choice in this context. The emperor messed up and so did the space wolves but if that situation or choice could change…..well
the fault of the space wolves was instead of following the original orders of Big E be believed the new orders that horus gave him to put Magnus the Red to the sword. The Reason Russ believed horus is becuase at the time horus had not revealed himself a traitor.
@@lairoftheobsidianwolf5784 Russ also didn't like Magnus on a personal level. He probably feels guilty for this later, but he probably was a little happy when he got the orders to destroy Prospero and kill Magnus.
@@lairoftheobsidianwolf5784 Russ gradually found more reasons to justify his hate of Magnus as they tried to get into contact with him but when it came down for it, Hatred won and Russ came down Axe screaming to kill Magnus.
That was then, he has since done such things as sacrificing a million people, having their throats cut individually, to do a magic spell! (Psychic Awakening) And that's just one of his most recent doings - there's 10 millennia of that sort of thing.
Hey Rho! This has been a great little miniseries, I’d love to see you do the reverse next. Which of the loyal legions are most likely to fall to chaos?
I WANT to say Alpha Legion but the truth is we don't know a whole lot on them to be sure. So I'll have to say Iron Warriors.
Hydra Dominatus
Hydra Dominatus
@@alphariusomegon7654 awesome.
Bro nothing can redeem the iron warriors
For the Emperor! Hydra Dominatus!
@@pyraastarte9737 the iron warriors weren’t that bad. If we are talking about Pertarabo himself it’s the emperors fault for not being a good dad. If he didn’t leave Terra the traitors would have breached the palace and won. His legions big grievance is annihilating the fists at the iron cage
Imperium: Are you with us or against us?
Alpha Legion: ...Yes!
I still run with the head cannon that Perti is STILL loyalist, to a measure. Emps saw the coming of the Nids and Necrons and knew that chaos was required to merge with humanity to have the range of weapons needed. Which is how Emps got the chaos gods to give him the power to fill the primarchs with warp-stuff.
Further to that, Perti's gift was all knowledge and the ability to see the Eye. These gifts made him the perfect candidate to be the Primarch tasked with entering the warp and bending it to the will of the imperium. Emps trained him and his legion to take on the foulest of tasks, and to hold no loyalty to the Imperium itself, but to the completion of the task at hand regardless of the cost. Perti knew what was coming so built himself iron guard without hearts because he knew his men would be fodder for the warp.
But the games of the Chaos gods overtook Emps and the fall of Horus was not expected (or it was*) and so the task became moot.
When the emperor eventually wakes up, he call up the greatest weapons that the combination of warp tech and humanity built with the hands of the architect.
Seems like the emperor dropped the ball with magnus. He could've just said "yep, we'll try" then let nature takes it's course and still have Magus heading his new marines.
What is that image of purtarbo holding magnus from?
Number one for me is the Fallen legion. They are mostly untainted by chaos and are working with the enemy out of desperation and little choice. Daddy Lion will come back, forgive them and lead one of the most massive and destructive crusades not seen for 10000 years.
Or Asmodai could have a word with all the traitor legions and "redeem" them. He's a really nice guy.
REDEEM MOTHAFUCKAAA
Asmodai: REPEEEEEEEEEEEEEENT
heard rumors the fallen are getting removed from the chaos codex maybe they will get their own supplement or maybe they will become loyalist
@@thatguynobodylikes8892 Hope changes are being made. I'd prefer they either joined back up with the Lion or be wiped out in one last epic battle.
@@postwar142 I’d like that, then the dark angels won’t be so paranoid
Magnus and his legion were already engaged with demons and forbidden spells that kept pushing the influence of Tzeentch stronger to the materium...I'm sure it was Tzeentch or indirectly who gave Magnus a temporary pause on the flesh change in exchange for an eye.
Pretty sure Tzeentch was the one responsible for the flesh change to begin with . The sneaky bastard had Magnus by the balls all along he was either too arrogant or/and ignorant to see it.
Slaashesh needed Fulgrim yo be disgusted at himself to give in.
Nurgle literally just sat on the Death Guard till they gave in.
Khrone was like "Great my Second choice legion came in"
But Tzeentch had Magnus pretty much from Birth and he had no way to get out of the Fate Weaver web.
It is stated...Give pause to the FC, when they get high on power unpause
You forgot to mention Konrad Curze's soul gem. The crown that contains it could have been cleansed of the Night Haunter or sent to the Chaos Gods to become a Daemon Prince upon his death. Freeing him to come back as a more sane version of his self. With the Legion being divided between his two halves.
Curze sought vindication by his death. Now imagine how hilarious if he found out that he too was a perpetual. He freaked out when he discovered Vulkan was one because, altho unlikely, showed that he could unknowingly be one too.
If death couldn't grand him vindication, maybe finding out he was a perpetual would torment him enough to seek redemption.
Just look at what happened to Sevatar on the Dark Angels ship.
@@fbussier80 well, all the Primarchs are perpetuals in their own way for sure, they'll all be back one day after all, and we've seen basic humans be able to come back from warp so for a Primarch with the aid of the Emperor and/or Chaos isn't too much of a stretch
@@boutinpowered8373 Where does it say/reference that "all Primarchs are perpetuals in their own way"?
Lorgar was genuinely worried about Angron dying to the nails.
Omegon actually felt Alpharius dying.
Ferrus is actually dead, the Emperor could only summon an avatar in his image. Even his clones were insta-killed by Demon Fulgrim.
Sanguinus is dead and gone.
Horus was wiped out of existance by the Emperor (Even demonhood can't respawn him) and his clone got annihilated by Abaddon the Harmless.
So... how are they "all perpetual in their own ways" exacly? Did i miss something?
Well, I have always viewed the Alpha Legion as the best candidate for a redemption arch. But Also the Fallen from the Dark angles I would love to see Luther get redemption even if it kills him in the end.
Didn’t we find out in the alpharius book of the Horus heresy set that alpharius and omegon switched names Which means alpharius is alive and omegon is dead especially seeing as the special armor the primarch wore was omegon’s armor he had from the planet he landed on while alpharius was on terra the whole time? I’m confused but that’s alpha legion for you.
Hydra Dominatus!
I wouldn't believe everything in that book. Especially anything pertaining to Alpharius AND Omegon being alive or dead.
You have to remember the switch your talkin bout happened WAAAAY late in the HH. And when the switch did happen omegon HEAVILY went against his twin but still stayed to try to bring more alpha legion with him
Edit : also remember and idr the name so i could be wrong on name but with the fight for the emperors beacon when st. Celestine toly loyalist to let the alpha legion a "traitor legion" to keep the beacon at all costs that was a detachment of omegons loyal sons.
As well remember back to Big E and malcadors game i believe they called it war there were 2 hydra cards. 1 with malcador (the traitor) and one with Big E (the loyalist) and when he was called out on it Big E said it was his secret move so it leaves credit to either omegon is alive OR omegon loyalist are still imperium loyalist. Molt likely this detachment bein thebalpha legion that turned renegade i forget their name but they only atk the imperium if deemed ABSOLUTELY neccessary
The thing we have to consider is what we actually actually know about the twins. Omegon (imo Alpharius) wore a plain power armor which in HOH belonged to Alpharius, and Omegon had the pale spear (sarrasata) and Pythian scales, and Alpharius in the old lore (imo Omegon) was somewhat cocky and had a inferiority complex due to arriving so late in the game. Which we know Alpharius was indeed first found. Alot of people will say well the book could be lying and the author said there would be no point in writing it if it was all lies.
Opening paragraph of the book said it best, "I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
@@IronWithin The opening paragraph was the unabridged truth. He was not Alpharius. The beginning paragraph takes place at the end. He was without a doubt Omegon posing as Alpharius, so that way He would have a genuine reaction to meeting his brother Primarch, as the Alpharius had already met them.
I just hate it that the emps said oh yea we have to kill your sons lol.
At least they should had the honour of fighting and dying for the emperor then I can see a magnus who would follow his father
Imo, the Emperor knew that Magnus would reject any offer that'd cost his sons. So what was the point in letting Magnus into the throneroom? I think it was to both show Magnus that he *could* indeed still be redemed, even now 10.000 years later, and to give him Revelation's ring for whatever significance that might have in the future.
I’d love to see the Deathguard redeemed. I don’t believe Mortarion ever wanted to be a vassal of chaos he just wanted to run his legion his own way
The Alpha legion seems like a great choice, have it explained that very few of the more senior members that turned traitor survived the herasy itself, and the resulting alpha legion spent 10k years weakening chaos from inside.
Eventually chaos got wise, and the loyalists send the corrupted on suicide runs against other warbands and comes pubicly back into the fold.
In an Imperium with Flesh Tearers and Charcharodons... Can't we just give the Night Lords a chance.
Ok, here's a potential theory, the Spear of Russ could help redeem a legion or a primarch
It's a great theory actually, the only problem is whomever is using that spear probably isn't looking to redeem someone…
@@wchamp170 Be redeemed by the Emperor's Mercy! (savagely jams the spear through their chest)
Isn't it the Spear of Diomedes?
@@RedSky-vf8bf The Emperor named the spear the "Dionysian", then it was named Gungnir and everyone else called it the Spear of Russ
Regarding Alpha Legion, I personally believe both Alpharius and Omegon are dead. The fact that the legion got shattered completely and that many warbands turn straight up to chaos doesn't give me any confidence that there's a living primarch of the legion still out there somewhere, guiding his legion. The Alpha Legion just became too much of a mess imo.
That’s what Alpharius, or maybe Omegon, would want you to believe.
I think Alpharius and Omegon made it out alive or basically did a memory transfer thing so their personality will override the implanted marine.
Especially since their whole thing is "schemes within schemes"
I did like the idea of the loyalist primarch leading a traitor Legion. But now I think if Alpharias was never a traitor, so I don't know what to think.
I don't think the alpha legion ate shattered at all
@@deusmortis9751 You know what? You're right. Alpharius Omegon just fell to Tzeentch. It's all Just As Planned.
I was fairly certain he'd say "Dark Angels" for number 1 before starting
Perterabo redeemed??
>Never felt empathy for anyone ever
>Was petty and spiteful and had to win at everything (destroyed the statues when his brother's was better)
>Made his sons murder
10% of their brothers for literally no reason before even meeting them
>Let his sons die by the thousands for fear of his fragile ego being hurt
>Massacred his whole planet's civilian population
>Murdered his little sister, the only person who ever showed him affection, in cold blood
>None of this was influenced by chaos like Fulgrim was
>Hated Rogal Dorn because he needed to be the best at everything because he was a petty manbaby
Redemption implies that the person was once good but became bad or fell to evil. Perterabo was ALWAYS a petty, spiteful, egotistical, psychopathic douche. He didn't need chaos to make him what he was. There is nothing to redeem because he was never a good person.
If the Emperor made Magnus choose between his loyalty to his father an his loyalty to his sons, I can see the fact that Magnus chose his own sons as a kind of test - which he passed.
knowing Big E, that wouldn't be the case
Regarding Perturabo, we know for certain that there was quite a lot of loyalist Iron Warriors during the Heresy. Heck, there are hints that there exist loyalist chapters within the Imperium that descended from the Iron Warriors. The legion didn't want to betray the Emperor. If Perturabo had a chance to talk to the Emperor after the razing of Olympia, I believe he would've remained loyal.
Malcador specifically says the Primarchs were pitted against each other and treated well or poorly by the Emperor by design. To put them against one another. Perturabo just needed some recognition. Just a hint of self worth from his brothers and the Emperor and he would have stayed loyal. I think the most likely candidate for redemption is Perty and the Iron Warriors.
@@jldavis337 You omitted the last part of his speech where he only said those words to comfort someone in their death bed, which means he lied
I mean, he _literally_ said he lied in verbatim too
@@takebacktheholyland9306 he lied about her soul not being torn apart when she died. The talk about Primarchs was a confession. How would it be comforting to tell her the plan and how it’s been compromised? How is it comforting to hear it was all a lie? She saw what was awaiting her and Malcador didn’t want her to be afraid of THAT.
Where did you read that? Only a couple resisted Perturabos will during the razing of Olympia and those who did were killed... afaik the only Loyal Iron Warrior was Warsmith Dantioch.
SMH they all felt used and abused by the Imperium and that is why they rebelled.
@@MrFallenone What? Only Dantioch? There are talks about a whole bunch of Iron Warriors assisting Maccrage during the heresy. Dantioch was definitely not the only one.
Well if we are to follow the bread crumbs from the Siege of Terra .... Thousand Sons
Yeah the suns never wanted any of this and were manipulated into this by Horus. Plus magnus fragment did help create the gray knights
@@dragb9284 arch did a great video on the potential for a loyalist konrad
Something that I've kicked around in my noodle for a while now is that if the Thousand Sons did get redeemed that those without bodies could get absorbed into the Legion of the Damned or the Imperial Demons.
Damn! That was a good series and I'm glad you put Perty and his legion where you. I've always liked the 4th and believed they could be redeemed.
Alpharius is almost certainly out there still. Robute killed one of their empowered legionaries like we know already they can do, and even he said it felt too easy. This pretty much proves to me alpharius is still out there. Possibly still loyal, possibly just insane and corrupted.
Alpharius was killed by Dorn. Even Omegon chapter in the story stated that “For the first time ever, he could not feel his twin, he was truly alone” or something along those lines.
@@craynak actually in the new book it is revealed that they switched names when omegon was found, and the og alpharius was actually the first son found and was on terra. so although he was calling himself omegon in that book, they revealed/retconned that it was alpharius going by omegon at the time.
@@craynak They switched to lessen the risk of Horus finding out their secret when the one found later during the Heresy decided it was time they reveal their presence to Horus ... by atempting to assassinate him, as all the others were already found ... and observed. Which was their task granted by the Emperor ... to observe all the new found Primarchs.
@@xavier84623 which book does it state they switched their names earlier on so technically Alpharius was pretending to be Omegon?
Emperors Children can be redeemed if the Noise Marines stop playing Despacito and Mambo No.5.
Don't forget that cotton eyed Joe remix, that's a warcrime in itself
Cuban Shuffle
Since your done with the redemption possibilities, are you gonna do a most likely to fall series??? Cause that would be awesome!
Successor chapters fall to chaos all the time.
I'm gonna guess the top 4 before watching:
-TSons: if Magnus gets his noble shard returned
-Alpha: possible double agent loyalists
-Children: Fulgrim might not have fallen if not corrupted...or fulgrim clone does something
-Warriors: Perty prob just wants some gratitude
Edit: 3 out of 4, not bad
Not far out
Really interesting video. Considering that Rho allowed for a potential rebirth of primarchs, including recreating them in a second primarch program; I am a little surprised to see Angron right at the bottom. Angron was absolutely a victim of his circumstances. Imagine Angron without the butcher's nails, and imagine if he had not been forced to abandon his gladiator brothers due to the Emperor's meddling. I can see him being a completely different character, though also a character that we have essentially no knowledge of. He would be an entirely different person.
I would most like Curze to be redeemed though. I feel like it could actually be done with the current lore (his soul in a soulstone in the crown, and the precedent of Vulkan being cured of insanity after being reborn), and that it would add a nice twist without completely ruining the long-running story lines. As likely as it is that the Alpha Legion are secret loyalists, it would damage the overall story to have them become loyalists in the era that we play in, as it would take away all of the mystery and essentially force GW writers to 'explain everything'. For all the other characters, it is simply too unlikely that they will ever be in a situation where they can be reborn or redeemed. I do like the idea of an Eldar prophecy about Lorgar realising that he was tricked and in his ascended daemonic form comes back to save humanity; but having that actually happen would ruin the current state of the game too much. So back to Curze; bring him back, have him accepted by Guilliman despite him being VERY uncomfortable about it, and still have half or more of the Night Lords remain 'traitor' because they are too far gone or love their freedom or whatever (which allows everyone to keep playing their armies!). Curze could even get in some nice quips about how he was right about the Emperor being wrong, a fool and a hypocrite, (in private obviously) but still ultimately siding with a pure, justice-oriented and law-abiding mankind. I can even imagine him and the inquisition getting along well with their brutal methods, and that causing an interesting rift between him with the Imperial-establishment, and Guilliman who sees it as backwards, barbaric and against the Emperor's vision, but who nonetheless accepts Curze out of necessity.
I would still prefer it if we had no primarchs return, and I think the books have gone too far in giving us glimpses into their personalities. I preferred it when they were these semi-mythical characters that we could never truly know, but who inspire us through the little snippets that are remembered of them. As we have them returning though, Curze is the best candidate for a redeemed primarch!
From who is the art where the Night Lord is standing behind the guardsman with the torch? I really like that piece.
I definitely wouldn't have the Night Lords this high. Sure they were designed as a terror legion but... they, like the Word Bearers (though not in a full switch to Chaos way) had fallen from the light as a Legion before the Heresy even started. As a fellow Lore Master noted "they can now do whatever they wish, to whoever they wish, whenever they wish" and they've always been predisposed to do so.
Iron Warriors are tricky given they and Pertuarbo got a really rough deal in the scheme of things and have a very justified anger about it, though some of it they caused themselves by never speaking up, and for the Imperium that's almost worse than an outside corrupting force in terms of being able to redeem them. Though at the same time they're still loyal to Pertuarbo and aren't nearly as badly corrupted, mentally or physically, as other legions on the list.
Thousand Sons strike me as the easiest of the Legions to redeem, since I think The Emperor undoing the Rubric would probably sway many within the Legion on the spot as many, though not all, are actively trying to save their Battle Brothers. Likewise Magnus only ended up falling because he tried to defend the Legion.
Alpha Legion... to quote Monty Python "MY BRAIN HURTS!".
"and they've always been predisposed to do so." LOL no. The tainted stock of new recruits from Nostramo was the reason they became savages who tortured for the sake of inflicting pain. The old Terran legionaries and the early good stock recruits were following Konrads teachings.
@@MrFallenone The Emperor recruited from Prisons and such for the Night Lords on Terra.
I think Perty can redeemed but then who gonna make Spicy Battery. Keep him in the traitor side is much more advantagous plus bro can research the Warp
The black legion is a strange one because they have fought for the imperium aswell as against them
I like the prospects of Kurze being redeemed and brought back to what he was suppose to be. What that is would be very intriguing. Maybe an assassin with a blind sense of Justice.
I wouldn't put the Night Lords very high on my list even though they're one of my favorite Legions. After reading the Night Lords books, I've found that the VIII is too consumed by hatred of the Imperium (or anything that isn't torture for that matter) to be redeemed. Should Konrad return they could be reunited and become a big pain in the ass for the Imperium.
The most likely is probably the Alpha Legion, but their lore makes my head hurt so I don't really have an opinion on them.
If Magnus and Ahriman could be brought back to the Imperium and the random mutations in the Thousand Sons gene-seed be corrected, save for a few Tzeench believers the Thousand Sons could definitely return. Though it would be a very cold relationship.
Personally, I would like to see the Iron Warriors return to the fold, hell they help the Imperium sometimes, and are the least Chaos-y of the Traitor Legions, if the Emperor forgives Perturabo and brings him back to his side, then the majority of the IV comes back and tactically they would be the most advantageous of the Traitor Legions to have back. Their logistics rival the Ultramarines, Perturabo is a genius when come to technology and siege warfare, and they are some the most devastating forces in the Milky Way. Plus having a meeting with the Minotaurs and their Primarch would be fun.
I can only see some of the Deathguard return with Mortarion, and for the Emperor's Children with Clonegrim.
I like the pet theory that only one of the two Alpharius or Omegon truly turned but it wasn't as simple as one of them turned and the other went along with it but was secretly loyal as a spy. I think the one who took the lead in overtly turning the legion was secretly loyal and the one who was only supposedly going along with it as a secret loyalist, overt traitor was secretly actually a traitor. Plots on plots, twists on twists and layers on layers as the forces of chaos got to one but not the other and we can't know which. Nobody can know which was which. And even if we could know which was truly loyal, we can't know which is dead.
You sound almost like a certain ex-Enquisitor with his explanations of Eldar ways. I like it.
Personaly, yes the Night Lords on first position, second Alpha Legion.
Still not understand why they made Pert a demon....
I just assume like every daemon primarch that not logar, he was tricked and got screwed over. Pert does seem like the type of guy who would let his pride over take his insight and get daemon hood against his will.
Legit besides logar none of daemon primarchs wanted this.
Perturabo.
" We could turn loyalist again but only if the yellow imperial chickens turned traitor"
I doubt pertuarbo would come back. If he did he would have to unchain Dorn he keeps locked up in his basement. Would love the clone Fulgrim to come back as a loyalist.
You know all he wants from Dorn is an affitmation of his superiority ... which will never happen.
The truth is the Alpha Legion should have been number 9, but since it''s the Alpha Legion, the lie is it should be number 1, but the truth, should it ever be revealed is the actually the lie and the lie the truth, so in reality, they should have been
I've been a watcher of your vids since you started your channel, Wolf Lord, and please keep them coming.
I was hoping you might post a pic of the plaque RUclips send for getting 100k subscribers.... well done!
FOR THE EMPEROR HYDRA DOMINATUS
No forgiveness no Redemption for traitors and heretics only fire:)
I believe that Fulgrim was never released from the control of the deamon.
And that when the clone was created his soul found the pure vessel and that clone Fulgrim was truly Fulgrim reborn. His pure soul finally free from the warp.
I also believe there are loyalist Emporer's children out there amongst the stars. And hidden in other legions as chapters.
He is also the Phoenix. And a Phoenix is always reborn.
This video has made me realize a crucial possibility.
What if Wolf Lord Rho has been brainwashed by the Alpha Legion?
He may not have claimed to be Alpharius but he certainly made this final list with absolute confidence.
A trait seen in brainwashed victims of the Legion. Granted his evidence is pretty good.
@@DanielScutt I am Alpharius. "You". The Hydra Awakens.
Thank you for getting to the point rho
Iron Warriors. Didn’t want to turn traitor. Have fought against chaos while falling to chaos.
The emperor could easily offer Perty Dorn’s role as Praetorian of Terra and he would be chuffed to bits.
Guilliman knows he’s not the chaos warped piece of shit like Morty or Angron and besides I’m sure Perty would be open to consistent heresy checks before receiving Primaris.
All he wanted to do was create stuff and he could work alongside the Mechanicus to create new weapons of war.
And the iron warriors have always removed warp taint and replaced it with tech.
IW: fuck them demons
*proceed to shove those demons into demon engines*
Konrad is coming back, one his sons has his soul stone
The Dark Angels need redemption more than the Alpha Legion.
Nice! Top 4 matched mine perfectly!
What about the loyal shard of Magnus? Wouldn't that have an impact?
that plotline was resolved in Fury of Magnus. it became apparent, that no shard was pure or loyal, all of them was equally capable of choosing Emperor or Chaos.
They ultimately chose Chaos, as the Emperors ultimatum was unacceptable.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen one shard has not chosen
@@carlstanford7607 are you referring to plot points from the Ahriman trilogy? Or the shard used up to create Janus?
Magnus made his choice completely and fully. There are only one of him left in the setting, and that is The Crimson King, Demon Magnus.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I think its only the shards which were connected to the Magnus at the time of the choice. I highly doubt he collected all of them.
Morty, magnus, perturabo is my opinion to be redeemed. Alpha legion are still loyal.. aren't they?
Pretty sure in a weird way. Wel depends on loyal to who there loyal to the emperor not the imperium
I don't even think the Alpha Legion know anymore; they've operated so deeply away from each other that some of their numbers have fallen to chaos
A thought on the 15th would be if the rubrics could be returned to life, would they stay with Magnus or would they rebel and seek redemption?
Edit: and then I get to the part where Ro talks about it. 😖
The Night Lords are too spooky to be redeemed
The simple answer is that none of the traitor legions can be redeemed except the Thousand Sons as far as the major legions go. The Deathguard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Emperors Children are just way way too far gone and mutated beyond redemption. You could say that maybe the Red Corsairs would be possible as they run under the chaos undivided banner. Though the Black Legion are also chaos undivided I don't see them turning back either.
The only real traitors that will probably make the jump back to true Loyalist at some point is the Alpha Legion. We know for a fact there's still Alpha Legion who are loyalist, especially after finding out that the true first found was Alpharius and not Horus, found early enough to be raised by the Emperor and told he was to infiltrate all the other legions and do whatever it took to protect the Imperium. Like I said, all of the other legions are far too mutated and corrupted for them to be brought back. It's possible the Emperor could cleanse the traitor Primarchs of their corruption but there's no reason to heal/fix the fallen astartes, might as well just get rid of them and make new ones from uncorrupted gene seed. That's just how I feel about it though, love hearing the perspective of other people.
*Fuck Erebus btw*
Nr. 1 is the iron guard because they hate all god's and they just feel betrayed by everyone.
Nr. 2 is the thousand sons under the conditions that Magnus gets his missing soul shards back. We should not forget that Magnus is literally missing his "Loyalty shard" and the problem with the space wolves is because of Horus deception.
Nr. 3 the Alpha Legion they could be very well the ultimate spy act.
Now make a “most likely to fall” set for the loyalists! Sorry lion, your top of my list there buddy
The Lion? Of all people? The Lion is, and has always been (maybe with the exception of Alpharius (turned Omegon)), by far the least likely to fall.
@@MajinOthinus that’s what I keep hearing, but I’m super sketched by the guy from all I’ve read so far- I’m only on book 12 of HH. The Dark Angels lore confuses me more than it enlightens me tbh
Honestly the Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are the best and obvious choices. I will say I think the Thousand Sons are above the Night Lords as the terror lords don't have a Primarch leading them and without Konrad coming back and pushing for it or a re-emergence of Sevetar bringing the Legion back together but that's debatable way as he hates the Emperor.
Strangely, when I discovered W40K back in ... 1995, my first thought about the Night Lords was that they are horrible and all deserve to die in a horrible manner.
But the more I got older, the more I learned to appreciate them and in that video, we have another example of the complexity of this chapter.
I’m thinking Konrad would be 2nd. Seeing how death cured Vulken’s insanity, I feel Konrad allowed his death to potentially cure himself. Perhaps his soul in a Eldar soul gem, needing a body to take over or operate like a wraith. But that’s just my opinion and theory.
Alpha I think is already redeemed and is doing spy work for emperor even if the loyalist do not know.
The rest of your list is solid.
i believe clone grim might be able to get some of the less corrupt emperors children to be saved
those plus some chapters that are most likely using emperors children gene seed would also follow clonegrim
Well for the night lords you defo got a point, pure gene seed, chaos at bay and in addition to that: they were the least murderous in term of body count with the alpha legion in comparison to the other legions. Vulkan is nice alright, he also has a kink for napalming people. Conrad is not cool because he likes to have after school vivisection studies, however he didn t genocide entire planets so if one thinks in terms of humanity: which approach is best ? As a last thought: Perty, Morty, altarboy, Conrad and Angron: Could the problem lies in the emperor himself and not in his sons ? Hiding your mistakes through a " you were made like that" sounds like a man, because the emperor is a man, that has it bitter and tries not to lose his face. And concerning the Alpha Legion, their emblema has 3 heads, could the big G be the third head ? brothers and twins..
It does make more since for the Alpha legion to be the one traitor legion to be redeemed. For it was Omegon that was killed posing as Alpharius. Alpharius has a high chance of returning. I can see Conrad Curze return only possible with the Eldar spirit stone theory becoming full cannon. If Guilaman & Yennead end up stumbling upon the soul stone and she does her revival skill. Conrad Curze could be a phantom like primearch before he gets a new Eldar tech/Primaris primearch body.
I mean, with Magnus, all the Big E had to do was show him how badly he was played a fool by the Chaos God he very well worships, thinking he had a choice in his story. While the Emperor wouldn’t be a better option, at least the cover would be lifted from his eyes.
I would say the best choices for Traitor Primarchs to return to Loyalist? Honestly our best bets.
1. Magnus
2. Mortarion
3. Perturabo
4. Angron
fascinating series. but what about the reverse? which of the Loyalists are most likely to be Corrupted?
Very good list but when are you doing a loyal chapter to chaos list?
The 15th are irreconcilable. They are farther gone in my view than the 17th.
They sold themselves not only to Tzeench, but entirely had sold out their father BEFORE the siege, which is why the Emperor saw them as beyond redemption.
As far as the 8th,.I still want to know what happened to Jago Sevatarion.
I feel that HE HIMSELF could bring a certain percentage of the legion around.
The 8th are like the wayward/prodigal sons of the Emperor. If they would return, there would be much rejoicing.
Maybe it's because I see the Carcharadons as a Nightlords successor, but I could easily see the 8th, if given enough slack, going galactic Punisher/Batman on the Emperor's foes.
do a series on the most likely loyalist chapters that still bear the name of their legions to turn to chaos.
I suspect 'Alpharius' in the Bequin novels is actually Omegon. Why else would he personally be assisting Eisenhorn/ Ravenor if nothing else than to directly combat a threat against the very idea of the Imperium.
Besides, who else could go toe to toe with Constantin Valdor than a Primarch?
Magnus chose his sons over his father. Showing that he was still noble.
If Emps were to reverse the Rubric and save Magnus' sons, he'd pledge his loyalty instantly. Magnus to me is the Primarch who most sees his Legion as his family. Losing them was not an option, so he rejected his father. His father saving them would break the hold Chaos has on him.
Isn't there a piece of Konrad's soul in the Corona Nox or was that retcond?
This was a fun journey! With the most likely legion in mind, when can we expect Alpha Legion week?
The night lords wouldn’t trust anything from the emperor. Even if it was Cruze.
i still think it wouldve been way cooler if Perturabo was the only traitor Primarch that was NOT a daemon prince.
Him being a daemon prince is Imperial propaganda.
TBH you matched me legion for legion - mostly - it was a dead hest for last place - black legion and Worm bearers and I could not separate thr rest untill the fnal two, I cannot believe that Perturabo really would stay in that position and would finally repent
Cannot argue with your rankings at all. Had both Iron warriors and Alpha legion in top two also. There's no doubt in my mind after reading the alpharius novel that Omegon is Loyal. But the question is, would you take a pure and loyal Curze or a pure and loyal Fulgrim!?
The ultimate balance breaker is perturabo. He probably the only one who could fix the astronomican and maintain the golden throne. With those fixed the emperior could finaly begin to heal
i think mortarion and the deathguard should move up to the nightlords spot and switch them. Mortarion is in a much better position to turn against chaos especially after events of godblight where he is no longer the darling of nurgle and saw emperor is still very much capable of kicking some ass despite being called a corpse. A teamwork with Isha to screw over nurgle would be cool. i feel that while he wouldnt serve the emperor he would go out with a bang to do as much damage as possibile to chaos out of pure spite. The nightlords dont want or seek redemption nor do they suffer nearly to the degree like the deathguard do who were basically forced into chaos service. the nightlords rebelled because they never had a true love for the imperium in the first place and acted like the tools they were using the tactics they were almost encouraged to do by the emperor for making them that way.
But if the Alpha Legion gets redeemed, one of the loyalists has to fall. Which Primarch would be most likely to fall, or to has fallen already.
Not really... the Traitors still have more active Primarchs. This would give Loyalists 2 active and 1 incapacitated with the Lion. Not to mention Guilliman and Alpharius DON'T get along or like each other's tactics. The Alpha Legion becoming Loyalist and Alpharius/Omegon coming back would create a lot of drama. Assuming all the primarchs return... short of saying Dorn is really dead... then the loyalists would likely have more.
or a third faction forms.
:-p
the night lords could be brought under control because servran or have you spell his name is locked up in the dungeon.
Bringing back Kurz?
Every single one of them would default back to the imperium out of fear of him.
Iron warriors? They felt more like they would still be anti-imperium.
As for the last one? Hard to say as you could claim half of them joined to sabotage the forces of chaos and the other half joined in purpose.
I think the Word Bearers are the most likely to be redeemed.
They have always venerated the Emperor as a God, and I think the "Lectitio Divinitatus" still forms a central part of their psyche. Their journey very much mirrors the Ba'hai beliefs, where each iteration of faith has been led by a different prophet - Abraham, Jesus, Muhummad - each evolution taking humanity further along the path. The initial denial of divinity, the fall to chaos, and then subsequent acceptance of the Emperor as a true chaos god may lead the Word Bearers to renounce the ruinous powers and dedicate themselves to their original, true God.
I wonder if the Emperor manifesting "miracles" more and more, and literal "Saints" flying about, if the next stage is for the Emperor to actually die, and ascend to true divinity - an action that redeems the Word Bearers and "cures" Lorgar - as Lorgar would then be canonised as a prophet, not a heretic.
I think any of the legions whose Primarchs have become a full Daemon Prince are past redeemtion. They've just gone too far. They won't go against their Primarch, and their Primarchs have become a literal extension of their Chaos Gods. That leaves just two options, really. The Night Lords and the Alpha Legion.
Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors I think. I'd love to see a redeemed Perturabo kick Daemon Angron's arse again
I wouldn't put Magnus below Mortarion, 4th sound about right for me. Magnus and the Thousands Sons are much like their icon, the Uroberos, in the way that deep down inside, they were always looking for a chance of redemption. The curse of Tzeetch was just too strong, so the more they tried they deeper they pulled themselves to the heresy.
If the Emperor wouldn't heal the Thousand Sons then, he surely won't now. For all the Emperors knowledge and power, he always seemed to fall short in wisdom and compassion.
I hope the Short custody can change Magnus and both of them try to save the imperium of their own way.
Question could you do a similar list with the loyalist Primarchs instead ala which Primarchs where the closets to fall to chaos?
It could be had the Emperor not chosen Dorn to be the praetorian of Terra, when Horus called he would have joined the side of the traitors, seeing the Emperor´s choice of not choosing him as an unforgivable slight against his honor or something like that.
ever since andy clark has given us that moment oh boi