The Best Race of the Year | Ronde van Vlaanderen 2023 | Lanterne Rouge Cycling Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 22 сен 2024
- In this episode Patrick Broe and Benji Naesen recap the 2023 edition of the Ronde van Vlaanderen.
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Lanterne Rouge
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Benji Naesen
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Credits:
Photos | Cor Vos (unless stated otherwise)
Data | First Cycling
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Another great edition of De Ronde. I really thought Pedersen was going to pinch it when he got a good gap, but I clearly underestimated how much Pogi had left in the tank for those final climbs, wow.
Timestamps
[Mens Race]
[0:00] Intro/Men's course breakdown
[2:45] Break development
>5:05 MvDP out of position; behind the split
>8:20 Big crash
[10:20] GCN Ad
>11:20 Break finally goes
>13:58 Kortekeer
>15:00 Molenberg
>19:30 Oude Kwaremont/Paterberg (Second Ascent)
>25:50 Koppenberg
>27:49 Taaienberg
>29:45 Pedersen attacks the break
>30:23 Kruisberg
>34:17 Oude Kwaremont/Paterberg (Final Ascent)
[36:00] Post race thoughts
>43:37 Race results
>46:10 Quickstep sprinting and crashing
[Women's Race]
[49:58] Race overview
>50:55 Koppenberg/AVV crash
>53:55 Oude Kwaremont/Paterberg
>57:22 Race results
Petition to rename Oude Kwaremont to Pogačarberg starts now!
He put MVP in a blender at that point !!!
And ends. Now.
Nerd
Eeesh. No
Amazing performance from Pogacar! It was probably MVDPs best RVV, but it still was not enough.
Agree that MVDP made a bit of a mistake on Kruisberg and at the beginning, but probably it would not have made the difference. He said himself that he was happy with his performance but that Pog is just something special. In the end MVDP was just incredible strong too.
WVA has never ever dropped MVDP in a race like this, the other way round has happened many times now. WVA is the one that looked incredibly disappointed afterwards, in the end he got nowhere near. A lot of people seem to find it very hard to accept that he is just not as strong in these kind of races as the other two, and keep predicting him winning. But he can only win if the other two are not there of not on top form
JV tactics today were very subdued and weak. WVA said after the race that he did not expect such a difficult race and early mano a mano. But his own team contributed to that big time by having a relatively weak rider in the break and letting the gap grow so big so Pogacar and MVDP had no choice but starting very early.
WVA is a spectacular rider but I must agree. The only way he can win is to hold and and win from the small group. He will not be dropping Pog nor MVDP on these climbs.
Bravo! - Epic!
Really happy to see Pogi win. Can't lie, when the gap got to 3 minutes to the break I started to get worried but as soon as they hit the climb and Pogi attacked, the gap absolutely melted and I knew it was going to come back. I wonder whether if Pogi wins another TdF or two, if he would be willing to shift his goals and go all in for Roubaix and MSR.
Roubaix, yes. He can win MSR if he's lucky, but it's not hard enough. He'd have to be able to darkhorse it somehow. MvdP pulled off that solo move this year because he didn't touch the wind till the top of the Poggio and no one was keying off him. Hard to see that happening with Pogacar because everyone knows he needs to go solo. Evidence for MSR not being hard enough is: Ganna was able to hold his wheel on the Poggio. No way Ganna holds his wheel on Oude Kwaremont.
@@S0ulinth3machin3 Pogacar got a bit unlucky this year with Ganna being able to close him. He had van Aert and van der Poel gapped but Ganna on the wheel, so there is actually a chance that he wins through sheer strength.
@@S0ulinth3machin3 Agreed about MSR. A perfect storm of things kind of need to happen for him to pull it off. It's definitely possible but I think he needs a situation where other big names like MvDP and WVA look at each other instead of immediately closing him down. Winning big races like Flanders makes that possibility of him just being given airspace less and less likely but who knows crazier things have happened.
@@stefanjoeres7149 he gapped them but both of them finished ahead of him. Pogacar can win MSR if he rides solo to the finish, just like today. Unfortunately for him, MSR isn't that hard. MvdP was able to do it but it was because no one was watching him (and Wout underestimated him because of the opening week performances). In contrast, EVERYONE is going to watch Pogacar. Everyone watched him today, but this race (RVV) is hard enough that he was able to force the issue. MSR only has 2 contested climbs at the end. The one before the coast isn't contested.
@@stefanjoeres7149 You talking about MSR? I don't think so. van der Poel would have been able to close that gap easily. You saw his attack at the top. The Poggio isn't hard enough, Pogacar doesn't have an advantage on the Poggio like he does on Oude Kwaremont (it's longer and steeper).
The way for a different outcome probably would have been for MVDP and WVA to work together pulling back pog until after the last climb and then duke it out in the finish. But MVDP pokered on being able to stay with pog again, probably because he thought Wout was the bigger threat
Pogi was too good, in this condition is hard to think a way to beat him
"What if MvDP doesn't try and drop WvA on the Kuisberg" is a very interesting alternate-world question. Sure Pogaçar then drops them both on the Oude Kwaremont (with WvA dropping first), but if they are close-ish and together at the top, they can then chase 2v1 rather than 1v1... The E3 got into MvDP's head and he was trying to get rid of WvA too soon. Or maybe that's just hindsight ^^'
Thank you guys again for the great podcast! All I can say about Pogi is just wow. Just the strongest today. The question now is can he become only the second rider in history to win 3 Monuments in a single season? We'll see if he can hold his form until the end of April but he should be co-favorite at Liege along with Remco. He's also the fastest sprinter there. At Lombardia, he's always the big favorite anyway. I think he wins 3 Monuments this season.
Then, at the women's race, Kopecky was just the strongest. Another SD Worx masterclass. She's undeniably the big favorite next week at Roubaix too. The team is just too strong.
Kopecky definitely favorite for PR because she looks incredibly strong. Her team will not be as strong though I think, no Reuser, no Vollering probably. But on the other hand there is no other team that looks really strong either.
@@rulifaller8474 Wait what? No Reusser? Any reason why she's not doing it? She would've been perfect on the team for PR.
@@monsiogabar525 yeah agree. guess she does not like the cobbles, a but like AVV. But maybe she will change her mind given her recent good form.
@@rulifaller8474 She is definitely more suited to Roubaix with her being such an engine on the flat so I would be surprised if she missed it.
Losing the sprint to van Aert in E3 may have influenced van der Poel's decision to want to drop van Aert. If Pogacar is as strong in future editions, then van der Poel will need help from van Aert.
Does he need help or just an better race flow?
He got gapped big time on cross wind.
Had an peeing break and therefore entered Korketer at the end of the field and had to fight back after DSM sprinted at the front of the field.
Had an little mechanically issue at 1 climb so had to go harder to close it down immiatly.
Attacked by himself at 1 climb.
These are factor which played part of it aswell.
A legendary ride from Pogacar. He's so unbelievably good, I can't wait to see what else he can do this year
It is unbelievable.
Great race with all the riders on the finishing position they deserved. Only sad thing were the many massive crashes that took out a number of favourites. (I don't say that the podium would have looked any different, but I can't stop wondering what Madouas, Mohoric, Girmay and a few others could/would have done.)
Pogacar would probably have won anyway, but with Mohoric and Madouas up there, Küng and Wright could have played the numbers maybe. It wouldn't have changed the podium probably, but it would have changed the race dynamics in the front group.
But with the race they presented us fans, we can only be happy. 😊
Looking forward to the match ups between Pog and Remco at LBL and Lombardia which we couldn't get to see last year, as well as the WC.
It'll be a good matchup but if Remco cant beat Roglich ,then he cant beat Pog. Pog is a superior rider. We always think MVDP is on a different level than the rest but Pog is on an even higher level.
If I didn't know that Maciejuk caused the crash, based on Benji’s pronunciation of his name I would have no idea who you were talking about 😅
Looking forward to see Pog launching a thermobiblical attack in Roubaix one day
It 's really inspiring to watch Pogacar win Le Ronde like this. He's a special rider and I believe could even win Paris-Roubaix if the stars align.
Very few are capable of all 5 IMO and the stars need to align. He is one of them and with today's performance he should certainly prioritize winning all 5.
@@cyclingboss469 1st focus on all 3 GT's imo, then PR. It shouldn't be too difficult winning Giro and Vuelta for him, even later on, but you don't know what will happen and this is the easier goal for him to achieve, maybe even next year already if he tries it then (which I somewhat expect him to do). MSR can fit with nearly any goal and can be done every year.
Benji pulling out the “thermo-biblical” , that’s high praise, near the top I believe. I don’t know how many levels might exist above it? Any insight Benji?
Pogi ❤
Reusser indicated she wasn't feeling well and Kopecky just set a non-blistering pace on Kruisberg (according to what she herself said), and Reusser still dropped unexpectedly to Kopecky. So Reusser probably was just not strong enough to stay ahead.
Thanks!
Feels like Trek and Quickstep did absolutely everything right, and left no cards on the table. Pedersen and Asgreen were on fantastic days but even if they had a 5 minute gap with 50k I think Pog could have crossed it.
Imo VDP lost the race with that action on the Kruisberg (not saying he'd win without it, but he lost it there). If you can drop Wout there, he also drops on Kwaremont/Paterberg. But this does cause them to ride with 2 instead of 3 for longer than needed and push harder to stop Wout from coming back. All Mathieu does there is make the race harder which works in Pog's favor. If Mathieu wants to drop Wout with an attack, it should have happened on Paterberg if Wout was still there and Mathieu felt still good enough. And if Wout and Mathieu both get dropped by Pog, but they stay together, it is 2v1 in the flat chase. Lastly the difference on top of Paterberg was 12", if Mathieu saved that earlier spend energy on Kruisberg (and after), it might have been enough to stay with Pog or close enough to jump to him after Paterberg with a full on last ditch effort.
He also either wasn't great enough to afford that move, or really acted weaker for some time (probably the later). Before his attack he looked the weakest of the big 3, dropping off Wout's wheel on the 2nd Kwaremont, dropping a small gap on Koppenberg that Wout closed, ....
As for VH not dropping back immediately, apparently he wanted to drop back immediately after the Kruisberg when Wout got dropped, but Wout told him to wait. A stupid move considering VH wouldn't have done much in that group in the first place and in the end VH rode slightly faster than Trentin and Wout would have maybe saved enough energy to win the sprint for 3rd in the end.
JV's numbers are indeed pretty useless when they remain in the same group as VDP/Pogacar, which is why I was surprised they were happy to only have VH in front. I did expect Benoot and Laporte to try and follow too or at least instigate some moves themselves to try and get upfront. A lead out train is pretty much useless if you know Pog will full on attack on Kwaremont, Wout just needs be in Pog's wheel at that moment.
Ofcourse Pog was crazy strong, so a deserved win and it would have been difficult to stop him from winning, but not impossible imo.
That is a lot of captain hindsight. In an alternate reality they do not drop Wout on Kwaremont/Paterberg. Kwaremont is pretty a different effort and it is difficult to get large gaps on the Pater. They broke and isolated Wout with the Kluisberg attack, Wout had to work alone for a while and still came back to the chasing group on the Kwaremont/Paterberg combo. I'm not sure it is that specific burst that cost MVDP the win either. The Kluisberg is the most favorable remaining climb at that point in the race, not as steep as the Pater that favors the lighter Pog. The effort was not a net loss either; Pog had to do the same effort and was seemingly close to dropping. If I'd had to pinpoint a specific effort where MVDP loses his edge; the chain drop effort by MVDP was longer and completely asymmetric/net loss as it was an effort Wout/Pogi did not have to do.
This analysis assumes you know who wins, no!
@@edfiganiak ?
Fantastic race. Watched every Km of both. I was torn between Pog or MVDP winning. Just happy to have a good race -minus the horrific crash.
I chose Kopecky to win and my velogames team is happy!
Thanks for the recap. I couldn't watch it same day, so it was great to revisit the race!
On the DQ, its the same with most things in life (unfortunately), authorities only ever seem to punish the outcome, not the action ... if you want to stop something happening, punishing the action is the only way to prevent these happening, its also the only FAIR way!
Mads with post race permagrin cause he knows he forced the selection and created great odds by doing the work of two during the earlier attacks and then again in the final. Monster
Benji, keeps us posted on the Belgie pundits looking at Wout's gift last week... it'll be a rough week leading to PR
The crazy part is that if any of the big 3 says; "screw you guys I'm not fully chasing for 50 km", they'd have given away RVV for free with this weird 'not chasing' and they are never coming back to the front of the race. I get wanting to weaken MVDP's team. But his team was gone and there was no reason to not just put 1/2 guys in front to keep the time difference in check. Now all Jumbos were smoked after one Pogi attack either way and everyone was forced to work in full just to stay in the race, making a harder race, disfavoring WVA.
Ik really didnt understand that Jumbo didnt exploit MVDP being back after the Bahrain putsch.
And overall way to passive.
Asked my friends couple of days ago... "how do you anticipate without blowing up when they catch up on you?" Only answer is to send in domestiques which means a crazy start like 2016. When I saw WvA in the back I immediately said he shouldn't be there for 30-50 kms because eventually it'll split and then Mathieu just let's it happen.
I actually liked the DSM move on the Kortekeer, Ineos seemed to be in on it, but you just gotta keep going and don't stop a few km after because you won't distance or hurt a lot of guys. It's just bizarre that Mathieu would yet again be playing in the back knowing how narrow it is there.
UCI is going to ban these types of unsportsmanlike moves 100%, and with reason. Eekhoff's Strava shows they went 3km/h at one point, up a steep and narrow slope. That is ridiculous and endangers riders (you saw riders falling). It was tolerated before, but DSM really took it too far today.
Hmmmm how are they going to ban it ?
@@paulangeloff400 It can be fined based on the current rulebook. They will start enforcing it now.
Will remco race this ever ?
I think they specifically waited with van hoydonk whether pog reached the group and the second that happend they abandoned the group. Bit of a conservative strategy but tbh I don't think anyone of jumbo had it today
It's the first time I recall both of you completely giving in and saying nothing could've changed the result.
RIP cycling tactics. Pog will win no matter what.
Can Powless Top 10 every monument this season?
He didn't ride Strade, which is absolutely a monument and I won't let anyone tell me differently.
@@Adanteh strade is not a monument.
Wouldn't that be an amazing accomplishment - go Neilsen !!
No he can't. Although being a big fan from Neilson, he will never finish top ten in Roubaix.
@@swissbiggy never say never
Pogi is a monster simple
I feel like JV made a big mistake letting the group get 3 minutes. Like they didnt chase at all. The only way the could win was let WvA follow Pog and VdP, and then not work with them waiting for Laporte and Benoot to catch up. But because the break was ahead WvA couldn't afford to sit in. I don't think it would have changed the race winner, but I think it was a big tactical mistake nonetheless
It was a great day, apart from the DSM/INEOS slow pace I enjoyed every second of it.
Unfortunately the split in the women's race happened because a slippery/muddy Koppenberg after the men's race, everybody except Reuser had to walk.👍👋
Dont understand how passive Jumbo Visma was today. Wout seems lacking peak shape, his crash must have taken something out of him. Seems hard to beat Pogi in the future, maybe something for Remco to handle?
Dont see remco dropping everyone last kwaremont and also not on Paterberg and he has no sprint so it will be difficult but maybe a weird attack in between the hellingen could do the job he should try
How does GCN+ not have rights to stream in the US? This is one of the big ones. Come on GCN. At least LR is available.
flobikes at $150 year, worth every penny
Get a VPN and watch as if you were in the UK.
Fantastic recap. Benji needs a new shirt.
Pedersen and Asgreen did not have the legs. Could see it right after they started the breakaway.
No comment on Vollering celebration? 😢
Should MVDP have worked with Pedersen after he caught up with him on the flatter part of Kwaremont? A caveat to that is they would lose a lot on Paterberg to stay together; I still think them working on the flat would have eaten into the gap to Pogi and maybe increase the chance of winning for both.
Nahh they were gassed, it wouln't make a difference. Pedersen had little left after his attack
No Pedersen was death already, he did finish on one minute of MVDP, so he would not have been of any help anymore. The strongest just won IMHO.
Pogi is a beast.
Wout is going to do some reevaluation, He might need to consider shedding some Kgs. If he wants to beat Pogi or MVDP.
FK YEAH 😊
pogačar wasn’t caught up in the big crash
I think if MvdP wins Roubaix quick, like this year or next year, he can possibly lose a few kg and focus on winning LBL and Lombardia for a couple of years. Will be hard with Pogi, Remco and others but I think he, Pogi and Wout can all win all 5.
Lombardia will be realy hard especialy if Pog is there to make it hellishly hard.
@@KKKKKKK777js sooner or later pog will do other races like vuelta then its time for that but i dont think mvdp can lose that much weight
A Wout, MVP & Pog sprint gives reasonably even odds to Wout & MvP. So Jumbo shouldn't have ridden to weaken MvP with the Laporte joining Pog. Really it suits MvP & Wout to work together to beat Pog and take their chances to win in the sprint.
Geed up for two americans in the top ten!
I think you understimate/not mention enough how tough this RVV was even compared to previous editions, due to the break formation and the very potent group 1. The big 3 really had to pull every single flat km for the last ~50, such a difference compared to like E3, when they just had to "not stop" to keep the others behind. I believe this is what lead MVDP to that questionable attack, assumed he can follow on kwaremont and paterberg based on last year and this spring, and identified VWA as the main threat. But since the harder the race, climbs matter the more (4km 4% Poggio anyone?), he should've focused on Pogi.
I think Pogi can easly win MS in any year with a bit of luck, but he must lose Roubaix a few times first, make himself seen less of a threat and go for a long solo to have a real chance. Or beef up and give up GT hopes, but that still not guarantee anything. Still the best rider since the Cannibal.
Are you gonna do a separate recap video or do you not have the rights?
Hi gents, no highlights ?
Van Aert gets 3rd if Van Hooydonck is there to pull him back earlier
*whispers* Mads Pedersen is a superior classics sprinter to Wout van Aert
I don't understand why Jumbo didn't send Van Hooydonck back as soon as WVA was dropped.
Van Hooydonck was up in the lead group and hadn't had to do a pull all day. He had an opportunity to get a career-best result at one of the biggest races. Instead he sacrificed himself to get Wout back up for what Wout will have dozens of chances for glory, this could have been one of the biggest days of Van Hooydonck's career.
@@sldulin This wasn't a comment on what Jumbo should have done.
Although arguably Wout getting 3rd is more important than Van Hooydonck getting a top 10.
It was a response to them saying on the pod they didn't think Van Hooydonck dropping earlier changes much.
Which ultimately if Wout doesn't have to pace full gas by himself for 5k and gets brought back to the main group sooner my view is he gets a solo 3rd.
@@LennieNelson55 He probably is - which is why Wout would be solo in this scenario
Big blunder at 48 minute. You probably think Roubaix.
Given everything that Pogacar has done over the past few years and now destroying classics specialists on their own terrain I do think that doping questions need to be coming up more. Given the history of the sport and the dodginess of team UAE, I personally find it difficult to watch this stuff.
Understandable but for now there are no signs of doping so just enjoy my g
Too bad TJV didn't bring Dilion Van Barle
I rate that win beating MVDP that way higher than his TDF victories. I wonder if Pogacar agrees with me?
First
Are you 9 years old?
@@jonjust7796 7
@@Imthekingofdogshite OK, maybe change your profile pic? BTW it’s bedtime
@@jonjust7796 maybe stay in your lane.
@@Imthekingofdogshite stop writing weird shit like that if you are more than 9 years old as your pic suggests. It’s creepy
It will probably take more time than I. Have but it's Lance again. Let's agree everything should be legal and regulated
Can WVA finally win something? Gotta say I’m pretty tired of his fans saying “you just wait till the next one.” Or, just maybe, he isn’t the best cyclist in the world.
Pogi has that special recipe 💉🥴
if Pogacar is on ped's Wout Van Aert and Mathieu Van Der Poel and every top rider in any top team are too, so he would still be a once in a lifetime talent.
@@popies4676 and that’s why Lance is the greatest cyclist ever 🙃
@@popies4676 I agree but also don’t, just because a person is the best when everyone is doped does not mean he would be the best if everyone is without doping because some have a better doping plan then others or just don’t respond as good as others to it, still he’s probably the best all round rider
@@philipb.1950 I understand what you're saying but you could say exactly the same for teams that have more money so they can invest more in better training. The playing field is never fair, it never was and never will be unless they make sure all teams have the same budget same gear and same training, but that would be ridiculous i think.
@@jonjust7796 I think that's still Eddy Merckx, but Lance is up there, winning the tour 7 times while everyone was doped to the max is really impressive.
To be honest WVA getting dropped made me very very happy
Roubaix > Ronde, generally speaking.