kosh already knew this. That's why he was sad and angry that it was the only way. He had grown to like John. He was hoping to beat john out of it, but he taught him well.
Great scene. Kosh knew his fate once he entered the fight. He was telling John "I'm not going to be there" literally. That's the sacrifice. Just excellent.
That is one of the few things that irk me. I mean, why have theese ancient folks always have to be so unneccessarily cryptic. "Look mate, we've dealt with the Shadows for a fucking long time. There are things that evolved - let's call them 'unwritten rules'. Especially when it comes to interfering. You with me so far? Ok. When I send ships to support you now - they'll find a way to murderize me. [lifts proverbial finger] Ah! Don't even say it. Your puny tec is quite a few notches below that of the Shadows. If they want me dead, you can't even try to prevent it. So in short - I can help you now - but you will be alone in the end, because I very, very likely will be dead by then. That's the deal - take it or leave it."
I believe it was this moment that Kosh resized this cycle was different, and that the time had come for the Vorlons, and Shadows to leave. From this point forward every action he took was to that end.
I absolutely agree. Everything about that scene is like the first time a son bucks his fathers authority for the right reasons. The first time the father looks at his son and sees the man he hoped to raise instead of the little boy he was so accustomed to...
I think that Kosh had been working towards the First Ones leaving since a few centuries after learning about his pending death from Valen. It just that up to this moment, he thought he could find a work around.
I think Kosh also had a bit of respect for Sheridan. The child who was bullied enough and pushed around until finally he had enough. Even when Kosh punished him, he stood stoic. Kosh probably thought "Impudent, brash, but brave" wlling to sacrifice it all to show Kosh death didn't even frighten him anymore. Sheridan's bravery impressed Mollari, Delenn (to the point of marriage) and even Kosh who DID help him at Za Ha Dum.
Not a regular ant. A fire ant. And a fire ant that is stinging the god with each bite. When I first watched this scene all of those years ago I thought something bad was going to happen to Kosh. But in my wildest dreams I didn't think he would go out the way he did.
In tabletop game. GM: "You are talking a God into helping you but he refuses and tells you to leave him alone. What do you do?" Paladin with a herocomplex, a deathwish, and absolute disregard for self preservation: "UP YOURS!!!"
Those were the moments i loved more about B5.. how well it was writen and in the long run.. You see this scene and you think its just the eager to fight hero recklessly begging for help to the wise ancient powerful guy But then just later you find out its not what it seemed.. Sheridan was right (for a chance).. Kosh knew it.. he knew what he had to do and he knew it would cost him his life.. but he was just not ready.. and he couldnt tell Sheridan (or most surelly Sheridan would back off to protect Kosh).. this probably angered Kosh even more and this was the slap in the face he needed.. "i know what i have to do and what it will cost me.. but im in the end scared of it and i cant even tell you" The conversation he has later with Sheridan impersonating his father while he dies just perfectly closes this dialoge.. Also puts into perspective how good a character Kosh was .. wish his replacement would be something more than an asshole
I think it was more then that. The Vorlons wouldn't come out and fight the Shadows. Maybe at the end to "run them off". But the Shadows are allowed to tear down the anthills so the Vorlons can rebuild. I think Kosh knew that this would change all of that. And as you said it would cost his own life. Up until this point it's all a game. But after this all bets are off. The Shadows are pissed, and step up there game. And the Vorlons loose it. I think Kosh knew what he would set in motion. And he was scared. Not just of death. But of the change to come. In the end he sacrificed his own life to give the younger raceses a chance to break out from under the first ones influence. A very very well written character.
@@sasquatchycowboy5585 Kosh was the embodiment of Vorlon acceptance and tolerance. Once Kosh died, the Vorlons accepted nothing but obedience. Ultimate Order, versus the Shadows' embodiment of chaos.
Ulkesh (the replacement "Kosh") was an ***hole because the character was meant to highlight the difference between Kosh and other Vorlons. He also resented the lesser races because Kosh - his mentor - had given his life for them, which is something the other Vorlons (including Ulkesh) saw as pointless.
The reason Kosh got so angry was because he was scared. He knew that once the Vorlons entered the fight he was going to be murdered by Morden and his Shadow puppeteers.
no, he knew exactly what was going to happen and was hoping he would talk john out of it. he said "there was a price to be paid" but he could not tell john that it was him who needed to pay it.
In tabletop game. GM: "You are talking a God into helping you but he refuses and tells you to leave him alone. What do you do?" Paladin with a herocomplex, a deathwish, and absolute disregard for self preservation: "UP YOURS!!!"
Each and every time I look at and see this scene, part of me is left both in fear and in wonder which path Humans will follow on the day when their "Civilization" changes forever. The moment in which Humanity finally understands not only that they are not alone, but they discover that Humans are no longer at the top of the food chain. Part of me hopes Humanity will have prepared enough Swedish meatballs before that time comes. Humans will need them.
When I saw this as a kid i immediately knew what Kosh meant. My father got involved with anime and fairy tales since i was small. I teared up at this scene. Kosh was really meant, if he helped him now, he wouldn't be able to save him later, cause Kosh knew he himself would be dead.
Excellent! I've been looking for this clip where Kosh says "Yes, _now!"_ 3:44 "I will do as you ask. But there is a price to pay. I will not be there to help you when you go to Za'ha'dum." To which Sheridan says, "You already said if I go to Za'ha'dum I will die." "Yes, _now!"_
I think if Sheridan had known the true price he would not have demanded, and if Kosh had known they would not have acquiesced. I don't mean Kosh's life, Kosh knew that would be the price. Yes Sheridan probably would have backed down if he knew Kosh would be signing their own death warrant, but in the end that wasn't the real price. The real price was the Vorlons going on a genocidal rampage (and the Shadows following suit). Billions dead, with no regard for innocents guilty only of being born on the wrong planet. Whole civilisations and species wiped out. Far more deaths than would have been if the Vorlons stayed out of the war, even if it meant the Shadows winning. I think had Kosh really known the consequences, they wouldn't have yielded even to Sheridan.
I think he would have, he doesn't regret his decision, and I think during his deathbed confessional to John later he sees what Lorien sees, the Vorlons and Shadows have lost their way and now that humanity is on the scene the new cycle is complete just in an unexpected way. Where the first races had Lorien to unite them and guide them, the 2nd ones have that job split between the oldest (Minbari to guide) and youngest (humans to unite) races, who are connected in ways that neither fully understand.
i think the price was kosh's death. The vorlons went exterminatus as a final solution type of deal. You gotta remember both the shadows and vorlons never fought directly. they used younger races to basically settle a bet. they could simply wipe the slate clean and start over, till john showed up.
Correction, when the Vorlons were ready the Shadows were scared as AF! When Londo confronted Morden for the last time he notices that Morden is afraid and so were the Shadows!
@@spartybrearly7221 in the final war shadows brought their planet killer (that nanomachine cloud that was devouring everything) ... vorlons and shadows were old, they didnt want to kill themselfs ... but the game changed and both sides were going berzerk ... without old ones help, lower races would be wiped out and then 1 huge battle vorlons vs shadows
@@vynnyn5489 best description ever: the thing is with ST it's mostly black and white, it spoon-fed the viewers it's lessons. With B5? The writing of Molari and G'kar's story alone is worth all ST movies combined.
@@DeltaPi314 As I've gotten older "My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter because I've forgotten how to dance." continues to have a deeper meaning..
@@vynnyn5489 beautiful writing. Amazing character development... Things that the woke media will never allow again because it distracts from the propaganda they shoving down our throat. Edit: it's actually how Hollywood expects writers to do their characters now: immature, unreasonable, wishy-washy and childish. Because it caters to their target audience. People my age just don't bother paying to see a CGI movie with cookie cutter actors
Star Trek had two pilots with different casts and only had a contract package of 13 episodes when they started in 1965/66. They had no long term contract, only a habit of Desilu of keeping shows for at least 5 years. Star Trek struggled to get 13 episodes in the can before Christmas. They only made 10 new (overbudget and late). Roddenberry took the two ROUGH pilots, reedited them to make three weeks out of them to avoid the fine and immediate cancellation giving them time to catch up. Telling stories miniseries of a novel style was rarely done. "The Untouchables" was the closest I recall before the 70s. Semi episodic but one built on the other in a specific gangster narrative. S1 TOS was the character arc of Kirk. That is the continuing story. Kirk who didn't want to kill his oldest friend Gary becoming the Kirk Hero by City and Operation Annihilate. That was the best they could do. TNG didn't really get out of copying dated 60s TV till Best of Both Worlds.
You see Kosh's "mind blown" moment when Sheridan says "maybe one more death will help balance out the books". We have so many cultural references about sacrificing ourselves with our short lives but how must it be to sacrifice yourself as an immortal being? Cool stuff.
I wonder, could Kosh see future events? Did he suddenly see that by Sheridan going to Z'Ha'Dum, he would encounter Lorien? Kosh's final statement also implied he saw that Sheridan would finally see the truth of what happened to his wife.
"Never Threaten a Man that has nothing left to Loose" if I learned anything from that scene at like 12years old it was that. Either way he knew he was dead, atleast this way everyone else had a chance.
Imagine if Aragorn called Gandalf a coward, that’s the kind of standoff we’re talking about here. Sheridan either had balls of steel or was just that desperate, or both.
No they were Platonist deamons (yes the spelling is correct not demons) or aeons or the two heavenly armies of angels. The were not the true form of the first one, which is a symbol of the true G-d in this tale. Sheridan had to die to meet him. The Vorlons manipulated the temporal universe to their will and fabricated telepathy and myth to make themselves Michael, Gabriel and Raphael while the Sladows did the same as The Serpent, Lucifer, Satan, etc... It is Platonism, mixed with Tennyson, mixed with Gnostics, mixed with Thomas Aquinas. IOW science fiction civilization tales. Dune, Hyperion, and several others are that.
you what he told them? “Lo, there do I see my father. Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. Lo, there do I see the line of my people, Back to the beginning! Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them, In the halls of Valhalla! Where the brave may live forever!”
Look here 😁 Jeffrey Willerth is an actor. Although the voice of Kosh was actor Ardwight Chamberlain, Willerth was the man in the encounter suit. He was born June 5, 1958. He and his former wife, Patricia Tallman have a son together; Julian Tallman.
***** ...but if so few of his people supported the attack on the Shadows (or maybe just him), why didn't *they* try and kill Kosh themselves, because he broke the 'no direct action' clause of the Shadow-Vorlon proxy war (at least until the Shadows got so out of control that the Vorlons thew up their nonexistent hands, said "Screw it, burn them all" and tried to get rid of them directly-- with everyone else in their way), thereby 'upsetting the apple cart' as it were? Or was it likely that the Vorlons would have *tried* to assassinate Kosh, its just that the Shadows got to Kosh first? And its proven that a Vorlon *can* kill another Vorlon, as seen when Ulkesh (the second Kosh, and *Ul*kesh is his full name, by the by) tried to kill Sheridan, and the part of Kosh inside him got loosed to fight Ulkesh-- if a fragment of a Vorlon could do that, I shudder to think what an actual scrap between two full Vorlons would be able to do.
"there are still few of us" that support Kosh's point of view. It's Vorlon politics. Perhaps his group is slowly growing in influence, but for now Kosh and his supporters, who want to take an active role, are still in the minority, and presumably the debate still rages on the Vorlon homeworld, which might also explain why he was vulnerable enough for the Shadow's to come and get him.
Yep, what Luke said. Kosh and those that agreed with him were the minority among Vorlons. Heck, Ulkesh (the guy that replaced Kosh) was his protege and even HE didn't agree with many of Kosh's views on the lesser races.
You know, when I read this title, I instantly thought of the phrase "Khas Naradah" or the such said by Zeratul in the original Starcraft 1. ruclips.net/video/LJTGm1D1GYs/видео.html Surprisingly, the word "Khas" in Khalani (Protoss Language) means "He who brings order" which is synonymous with Kosh here, being an alien attuned to Order. Looking at the context of which it is used, it means the one who brings order is ordered to do something, and thus with Zeratul getting it done with a simple mouse click, and then you have Kosh here which just won't budge until you annoy him much like clicking on Zeratul too much LOL :)
Many of the names used in B5 came from Lord of the Rings. "Kosh" is a word chanted by the orcs in Moria when the Balrog comes. Gandalf said it means "fire". And the mines of Moria, also known as Khazad-dûm (obvious source for Za'ha'dum). The Rangers, Lorien (Lothlorien), and this one is a slight stretch, Mr. Morden (Mordor).
It is an assumption. He assumes if they could then they would have done it without dragging Delen's race and his into the situation...as they drag in the rest. This played out in SG1 with Thor and the Asgard against the Gaold...then the Replicators as they called in a favor. This should have played out in original Star Trek with Balock's First Federation. When The Borg showed up in TNG and several other crisis...why didn't starfleet call to Balock. Conveniently forgotten. It is a literary metaphor of G-d or Daemons (not demons). Why not just wipe our the evil aeons and archons. The false gods. Why make humans decide and fight them?
@@STho205 DOesn't really work with capital-G-God. The Vorlons couldn't just snap the Shadows out of existence. Same - even more so - with the Asgard. They were holding on to dear life against the replicators and were only bluffing against the Goauld. With Star Trek, you can take the Q as nigh-omnipotent beings as comparison. Why do they allow others to suffer? They at least have the excuse that they are fallible beings that just ascended (to a far higher plane than the ascended in SG, and with fewer rules). They didn't create humanity or the Universe, they just observe it and play with it. And they don't pretend they are merciful.
@@boooster101 most Sci Fi with godlike beings is based on: Gnostic Sethism Platonism Arianism (Bishop Arias and Jesus is not God but God's messenger) Mormonism and especially....Scientology. In many of these heresies, as viewed by trinitarian or Jewish orthodox) there are rival gods in the temporal realm, even if there is one perfect form God above it all....that God does not interact. B5 is based on 1st Ones coming into existence then the Vorlons and Shadows are Aeons that become Archons....administrators of this galaxy. They are paired as Plato described, appearing good and evil but beyond good and evil. The galaxy is corrupt and all races are fundamentally evil, they just appear good because they are being watched by others. People are born evil and must be forced to be good. For some it becomes more natural than others, and their spirit element is gold or silver, not brass or copper. Everyone's equal but some are more equal than others by their essential form....Plato. SF writers love this stuff. It has nothing to do with traditional orthodox religion though it may seem Familia....they pick the weird religion or Greek and Egyptian mythology for fun stories of the bizarre.
@@STho205 because the moment you introduce the God... The arguments of real life tend to crop up like the problem of evil. And that's not too tough and controversial for scifi. Think of Marvel, TOAA is God. And they absolutely had to go down the "i work in mysterious ways" excuse whEn Spiderman met him.
@@boooster101 comic books all use heresy religions. Always have. If you try to apply it to modern religion you can be mislead. You need to understand stable mainstream theology to compare. Otherwise it may as well be Apollo or Horus or Quexiquotle.
The needs of the few out weight the needs of the many...DOes a superior intellect bow down to 3, 4, 5 worlds of people whotry to live inpeace? KOSH had a very sticky problem
You think Sinclair was epic when he basicaly CREATED the first ranger in the shadow war back in their time? Yea think again, Sheridan is multiple times as badass. He basicaly STOPED GOD from going anywhere UNTIL he got what he wanted.
I think Kosh knew his line from the scrip, and did not improvise much, Sheridan performed his lines with a bit of reservation, in all I think they should have had a few more takes, we could ponder this from the director's point of view, but nah. lol.
"1 more death the balance out the books", then Kosh realised it was his own.
kosh already knew this. That's why he was sad and angry that it was the only way. He had grown to like John. He was hoping to beat john out of it, but he taught him well.
Great scene. Kosh knew his fate once he entered the fight. He was telling John "I'm not going to be there" literally. That's the sacrifice. Just excellent.
Kosh could've told Sheridan he would die.
@ODIN Force It would've also made more sense and helped the cause more.
Then he would not have asked if he knew what would be sacrificed.
That is one of the few things that irk me. I mean, why have theese ancient folks always have to be so unneccessarily cryptic.
"Look mate, we've dealt with the Shadows for a fucking long time. There are things that evolved - let's call them 'unwritten rules'. Especially when it comes to interfering. You with me so far? Ok.
When I send ships to support you now - they'll find a way to murderize me. [lifts proverbial finger] Ah! Don't even say it. Your puny tec is quite a few notches below that of the Shadows. If they want me dead, you can't even try to prevent it.
So in short - I can help you now - but you will be alone in the end, because I very, very likely will be dead by then.
That's the deal - take it or leave it."
@Robert Nett ..exactly how Sheridan felt.
"All you've done is stand there and look cryptic." And he's damn good at it!
Acting!
Bruce Boxleitner is magnificent in this scene. A true hero.
That's because he fights for the Users.
Can you imagine being the security guard sent to respond to Sheridan yelling at Kosh? You just come around the corner, and just "Nope!"
NOPE. You're on your own bitch! 😂😂😂
Lmao!
Epic truth.
It's amazing how Kosh struggles not with Sheridan, but with compassion and love for the younger races that have awakened in him.
I believe it was this moment that Kosh resized this cycle was different, and that the time had come for the Vorlons, and Shadows to leave. From this point forward every action he took was to that end.
I absolutely agree. Everything about that scene is like the first time a son bucks his fathers authority for the right reasons. The first time the father looks at his son and sees the man he hoped to raise instead of the little boy he was so accustomed to...
Yes, I completely agree. And Kosh didn't want to die (who does?!) but knew it would cost him his life but it was necessary.
I think that Kosh had been working towards the First Ones leaving since a few centuries after learning about his pending death from Valen. It just that up to this moment, he thought he could find a work around.
I think Kosh also had a bit of respect for Sheridan. The child who was bullied enough and pushed around until finally he had enough. Even when Kosh punished him, he stood stoic.
Kosh probably thought "Impudent, brash, but brave" wlling to sacrifice it all to show Kosh death didn't even frighten him anymore. Sheridan's bravery impressed Mollari, Delenn (to the point of marriage) and even Kosh who DID help him at Za Ha Dum.
babylon effect 3??? comander sheri-perd??
Kosh just signed his own death warrant. And John did not understand.
A god conversing with an ant.
Nice.
And the ant winning.
Not a regular ant. A fire ant. And a fire ant that is stinging the god with each bite.
When I first watched this scene all of those years ago I thought something bad was going to happen to Kosh. But in my wildest dreams I didn't think he would go out the way he did.
@@kenmcauliffe3028 plot armour
What was that!?!
In tabletop game. GM: "You are talking a God into helping you but he refuses and tells you to leave him alone. What do you do?"
Paladin with a herocomplex, a deathwish, and absolute disregard for self preservation: "UP YOURS!!!"
I feel like you could quote almost this entire speech as a dnd paladin and it would be almost perfect. Maybe for a cleric as well
"Captain, todays report, the only unusual thing were some weird localized energy surges"
"Oh, that was Kosh going all Darth Vader on me"
such a great scene, Kosh was scared and he knows it has to be done and that there will be consequences, he tells Sheriden as much later.
Vorlon Joke.
two Vorlons flirting :
- I like you?
- Perhaps.
- I hate when you do that.
- No.
Those were the moments i loved more about B5.. how well it was writen and in the long run..
You see this scene and you think its just the eager to fight hero recklessly begging for help to the wise ancient powerful guy
But then just later you find out its not what it seemed.. Sheridan was right (for a chance).. Kosh knew it.. he knew what he had to do and he knew it would cost him his life.. but he was just not ready.. and he couldnt tell Sheridan (or most surelly Sheridan would back off to protect Kosh).. this probably angered Kosh even more and this was the slap in the face he needed.. "i know what i have to do and what it will cost me.. but im in the end scared of it and i cant even tell you"
The conversation he has later with Sheridan impersonating his father while he dies just perfectly closes this dialoge..
Also puts into perspective how good a character Kosh was .. wish his replacement would be something more than an asshole
I think it was more then that. The Vorlons wouldn't come out and fight the Shadows. Maybe at the end to "run them off". But the Shadows are allowed to tear down the anthills so the Vorlons can rebuild. I think Kosh knew that this would change all of that. And as you said it would cost his own life. Up until this point it's all a game. But after this all bets are off. The Shadows are pissed, and step up there game. And the Vorlons loose it. I think Kosh knew what he would set in motion. And he was scared. Not just of death. But of the change to come. In the end he sacrificed his own life to give the younger raceses a chance to break out from under the first ones influence. A very very well written character.
Yes. I was reminded of this a lot when I watched Arrival with the tapping on the glass.
@@sasquatchycowboy5585 Kosh was Space Jesus then... noice!
@@sasquatchycowboy5585 Kosh was the embodiment of Vorlon acceptance and tolerance. Once Kosh died, the Vorlons accepted nothing but obedience. Ultimate Order, versus the Shadows' embodiment of chaos.
Ulkesh (the replacement "Kosh") was an ***hole because the character was meant to highlight the difference between Kosh and other Vorlons. He also resented the lesser races because Kosh - his mentor - had given his life for them, which is something the other Vorlons (including Ulkesh) saw as pointless.
Kosh didn’t leave him either. He broke off a piece of himself and stuck it with John
The reason Kosh got so angry was because he was scared. He knew that once the Vorlons entered the fight he was going to be murdered by Morden and his Shadow puppeteers.
Kosh was afraid and he masked that fear by lashing out at Sheridan.
no, he knew exactly what was going to happen and was hoping he would talk john out of it. he said "there was a price to be paid" but he could not tell john that it was him who needed to pay it.
Kosh was testing sheridan, when sheridan showed he was willing to pay the price, kosh matched his will to sacrifice with his own.
When a giant holds a conversation with an insect. An the insect is right.
*And* the insect is right.
Free spell check for you my friend.
Great series 💯
I love the huge homage to this moment in Homeworld Cataclysm. If there ever was a good show to borrow from.
I played cataclysm but I cannot recall such a moment. Interesting.
I think it's where you force the Bentusi to help you.
I love that his go to response to Kosh was "up yours".
Was that even possible?
*no*
In tabletop game. GM: "You are talking a God into helping you but he refuses and tells you to leave him alone. What do you do?"
Paladin with a herocomplex, a deathwish, and absolute disregard for self preservation: "UP YOURS!!!"
This is one of the reasons I love Babylon 5. Partially because of the smack-talking of alien races.
One of my favorite scenes was the short view into the court room where the "Grey" aliens are on trial for abducting a humans ancestor.
Love Bruce's performance in this scene.❤..
Each and every time I look at and see this scene, part of me is left both in fear and in wonder which path Humans will follow on the day when their "Civilization" changes forever. The moment in which Humanity finally understands not only that they are not alone, but they discover that Humans are no longer at the top of the food chain. Part of me hopes Humanity will have prepared enough Swedish meatballs before that time comes. Humans will need them.
Its obvious that we are going to need more meatballs.
We have always been here, amongst you. You do not understand.... but you will in time.
That's what IKEA is for.
Everything changes when Jesus Christ returns 😇
@@snbforever No, you're thinking of the Fire Nation attacking.
When I saw this as a kid i immediately knew what Kosh meant. My father got involved with anime and fairy tales since i was small.
I teared up at this scene. Kosh was really meant, if he helped him now, he wouldn't be able to save him later, cause Kosh knew he himself would be dead.
Love the series and the way they did it. Still, in retrospect, knowing what was to come, Kosh could have told him. If I help you, this will happen...
Epic moment in the series!!!
Excellent! I've been looking for this clip where Kosh says "Yes, _now!"_
3:44 "I will do as you ask. But there is a price to pay. I will not be there to help you when you go to Za'ha'dum."
To which Sheridan says, "You already said if I go to Za'ha'dum I will die."
"Yes, _now!"_
Kosh Naranek was my first crush❤ that force choke....
Yes...............
Up yours !
Brilliant.
I think if Sheridan had known the true price he would not have demanded, and if Kosh had known they would not have acquiesced.
I don't mean Kosh's life, Kosh knew that would be the price. Yes Sheridan probably would have backed down if he knew Kosh would be signing their own death warrant, but in the end that wasn't the real price.
The real price was the Vorlons going on a genocidal rampage (and the Shadows following suit). Billions dead, with no regard for innocents guilty only of being born on the wrong planet. Whole civilisations and species wiped out. Far more deaths than would have been if the Vorlons stayed out of the war, even if it meant the Shadows winning.
I think had Kosh really known the consequences, they wouldn't have yielded even to Sheridan.
It is a possibility.
I think he would have, he doesn't regret his decision, and I think during his deathbed confessional to John later he sees what Lorien sees, the Vorlons and Shadows have lost their way and now that humanity is on the scene the new cycle is complete just in an unexpected way. Where the first races had Lorien to unite them and guide them, the 2nd ones have that job split between the oldest (Minbari to guide) and youngest (humans to unite) races, who are connected in ways that neither fully understand.
Kosh did know. That's why he was so reluctant; not just losing his own life but the cost to so many others.
.Vorlons and Shadows were using Lower races as pawns in a cycle which would continue if Sheridan and Ti-Lynn hadn't called them out.
i think the price was kosh's death. The vorlons went exterminatus as a final solution type of deal. You gotta remember both the shadows and vorlons never fought directly. they used younger races to basically settle a bet. they could simply wipe the slate clean and start over, till john showed up.
As shown in Passing Through Gethsemane, kosh is also afraid but ultimately accepts his fate.
Correction, when the Vorlons were ready the Shadows were scared as AF! When Londo confronted Morden for the last time he notices that Morden is afraid and so were the Shadows!
That was in response to the Shadow capital getting nuked, now they felt they could completely defeat them. They said as much as the lady in the ice.
Because the game rules had been changed from proxy wars to total war and they knew it was all in this time.
Sheridan’s presumption is incorrect. The Vorlons easily destroyed a Shadow fleet in the episode ‘Interludes and Examinations‘ .
@@spartybrearly7221 in the final war shadows brought their planet killer (that nanomachine cloud that was devouring everything) ... vorlons and shadows were old, they didnt want to kill themselfs ... but the game changed and both sides were going berzerk ... without old ones help, lower races would be wiped out and then 1 huge battle vorlons vs shadows
This is why B5 is something Star Trek can never even hope to reach.
Don't get me wrong, I ::love:: me some Star Trek! But Star Trek is a comic book and B5 is a novel.
@@vynnyn5489 best description ever: the thing is with ST it's mostly black and white, it spoon-fed the viewers it's lessons.
With B5? The writing of Molari and G'kar's story alone is worth all ST movies combined.
@@DeltaPi314 As I've gotten older "My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter because I've forgotten how to dance." continues to have a deeper meaning..
@@vynnyn5489 beautiful writing. Amazing character development...
Things that the woke media will never allow again because it distracts from the propaganda they shoving down our throat.
Edit: it's actually how Hollywood expects writers to do their characters now: immature, unreasonable, wishy-washy and childish. Because it caters to their target audience. People my age just don't bother paying to see a CGI movie with cookie cutter actors
Star Trek had two pilots with different casts and only had a contract package of 13 episodes when they started in 1965/66. They had no long term contract, only a habit of Desilu of keeping shows for at least 5 years.
Star Trek struggled to get 13 episodes in the can before Christmas. They only made 10 new (overbudget and late). Roddenberry took the two ROUGH pilots, reedited them to make three weeks out of them to avoid the fine and immediate cancellation giving them time to catch up.
Telling stories miniseries of a novel style was rarely done. "The Untouchables" was the closest I recall before the 70s. Semi episodic but one built on the other in a specific gangster narrative.
S1 TOS was the character arc of Kirk. That is the continuing story. Kirk who didn't want to kill his oldest friend Gary becoming the Kirk Hero by City and Operation Annihilate.
That was the best they could do.
TNG didn't really get out of copying dated 60s TV till Best of Both Worlds.
Das sind Freunde die sich miteinander anlegen. Sie sind sich uneins.
"You do not understand..... But you will....". That was chilling...
I appreciate Sheridan's defiance, my god "Leave now." "Up yours!"
Kosh may have roughed up Sheridan for backtalk, but he was probably thinking "I knew it, the kid's got it. That's my boy!"
You see Kosh's "mind blown" moment when Sheridan says "maybe one more death will help balance out the books". We have so many cultural references about sacrificing ourselves with our short lives but how must it be to sacrifice yourself as an immortal being? Cool stuff.
You DO NOT UNDERSTAND ... the most understated understatement ever ...
Hey, they're like Vulcans and Klingons .. A Vorlon is going to do what a Vorlon is going to do.
I wonder, could Kosh see future events? Did he suddenly see that by Sheridan going to Z'Ha'Dum, he would encounter Lorien? Kosh's final statement also implied he saw that Sheridan would finally see the truth of what happened to his wife.
Kosh my favourite character in B5. Shame he had to be killed off. But that's the way it had to be.
At 1:20 he refers to a "non-localised phenomenon". That's how Delenn described the soul.
4:35 Something like speaking in parables. Only if you are on the right path will you see something more than a story.
"Never Threaten a Man that has nothing left to Loose"
if I learned anything from that scene at like 12years old it was that. Either way he knew he was dead, atleast this way everyone else had a chance.
Imagine if Aragorn called Gandalf a coward, that’s the kind of standoff we’re talking about here. Sheridan either had balls of steel or was just that desperate, or both.
Arguing with Kosh is like arguing with Asian Dad…strict parenting.
Kosh.
Cryptic and enigmatic to the last.
Dude meets a god :)
No they were Platonist deamons (yes the spelling is correct not demons) or aeons or the two heavenly armies of angels.
The were not the true form of the first one, which is a symbol of the true G-d in this tale. Sheridan had to die to meet him. The Vorlons manipulated the temporal universe to their will and fabricated telepathy and myth to make themselves Michael, Gabriel and Raphael while the Sladows did the same as The Serpent, Lucifer, Satan, etc...
It is Platonism, mixed with Tennyson, mixed with Gnostics, mixed with Thomas Aquinas. IOW science fiction civilization tales. Dune, Hyperion, and several others are that.
I love the alien costuming. It do's not look out dated.
I love this scene.
amazing scene
Kosh ... at that moment decided to die ... so was not available to stop Sheridan dying at Z'ha'dum, so instead had to rely on Lorien ...
So EPIC!!!
you what he told them? “Lo, there do I see my father.
Lo, there do I see my mother,
and my sisters, and my brothers.
Lo, there do I see the line of my people,
Back to the beginning!
Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take my place among them,
In the halls of Valhalla!
Where the brave may live forever!”
отличнейшая сцена
Согласен, как и многие другие )
Both the Vorlons and Shadows think that it's their role to guide the Younger Races.
The truth is also a two-edged sword.
Look here 😁
Jeffrey Willerth is an actor. Although the voice of Kosh was actor Ardwight Chamberlain, Willerth was the man in the encounter suit.
He was born June 5, 1958. He and his former wife, Patricia Tallman have a son together; Julian Tallman.
"Put your money where your mouth is"
John Sheridan is my hero for all time ❤
Once again, he was deceptive, because part of him did go with sheridan to zhahadum😮
Obey the emperor's will
Frank Welker - Megatron's voice
A more sophisticated species would have just stood there and let Sheridan rant until he collapsed from exhaustion.
Hmmm...conflict making them stronger...they're kind of proving the Shadows' point here.
There is always a price to pay😂😂
John might not have understood but we do
When kosh narrowed his eye lens at Sheridan, as if to say , who do you think your talking to.? You knew he was in trouble 😅
Clearly the Vorlon equivalent of "What the fuck did you just say to me, you little bitch?!"
Kosh was with him at 🤓
Yes.
❤❤
How many Kosh? HOW MANY MORE LIVES?
I wonder what he means when he says "there are still few of us"? Will there be more vorlons in the future, do they hibernate or something similar?
***** ...but if so few of his people supported the attack on the Shadows (or maybe just him), why didn't *they* try and kill Kosh themselves, because he broke the 'no direct action' clause of the Shadow-Vorlon proxy war (at least until the Shadows got so out of control that the Vorlons thew up their nonexistent hands, said "Screw it, burn them all" and tried to get rid of them directly-- with everyone else in their way), thereby 'upsetting the apple cart' as it were? Or was it likely that the Vorlons would have *tried* to assassinate Kosh, its just that the Shadows got to Kosh first?
And its proven that a Vorlon *can* kill another Vorlon, as seen when Ulkesh (the second Kosh, and *Ul*kesh is his full name, by the by) tried to kill Sheridan, and the part of Kosh inside him got loosed to fight Ulkesh-- if a fragment of a Vorlon could do that, I shudder to think what an actual scrap between two full Vorlons would be able to do.
"there are still few of us" that support Kosh's point of view. It's Vorlon politics. Perhaps his group is slowly growing in influence, but for now Kosh and his supporters, who want to take an active role, are still in the minority, and presumably the debate still rages on the Vorlon homeworld, which might also explain why he was vulnerable enough for the Shadow's to come and get him.
@@lukedogwalker He definitely knew the Shadows would kill him, and he allowed them to. Otherwise the fight would have had more impact on the station.
Yep, what Luke said. Kosh and those that agreed with him were the minority among Vorlons. Heck, Ulkesh (the guy that replaced Kosh) was his protege and even HE didn't agree with many of Kosh's views on the lesser races.
@@0megacron Exactly Kosh seen them as younger races, where many other vorlons seen them as Lesser.
You know, when I read this title, I instantly thought of the phrase "Khas Naradah" or the such said by Zeratul in the original Starcraft 1. ruclips.net/video/LJTGm1D1GYs/видео.html
Surprisingly, the word "Khas" in Khalani (Protoss Language) means "He who brings order" which is synonymous with Kosh here, being an alien attuned to Order. Looking at the context of which it is used, it means the one who brings order is ordered to do something, and thus with Zeratul getting it done with a simple mouse click, and then you have Kosh here which just won't budge until you annoy him much like clicking on Zeratul too much LOL :)
Many of the names used in B5 came from Lord of the Rings. "Kosh" is a word chanted by the orcs in Moria when the Balrog comes. Gandalf said it means "fire". And the mines of Moria, also known as Khazad-dûm (obvious source for Za'ha'dum). The Rangers, Lorien (Lothlorien), and this one is a slight stretch, Mr. Morden (Mordor).
*cliks the gear to up this from one pixel res* .... ah one pixel res it is! Still important scene with Kosh!
This ends the argument who is more powerful shadows or vorlons even kosh admitted the vorlons can't beat the shadows
It was also a numbers game I think the vorlons were at zero population growth for awhile and the shadow would reproduce between hibernating
Don't think Kirk said "Up yours!" to an Elder God even once.
Ben Sisko punched a god right in the face.
JYES
ละเบียบเกเหลักยัองไม่ได้จัด.เดีนทางมักสวนกันชนกันเลื้อยไป.แนวละนาดคอืทางเดีนของลอนเวทุกๆทัน
ลงตรวดสหมอละพูมดวงดาว.ดาวบุกลุกต่างเอาเองนะเดวิด
How does Sheridan know the Vorlons couldn’t take the entire Shadow fleet by themselves!?
It is an assumption. He assumes if they could then they would have done it without dragging Delen's race and his into the situation...as they drag in the rest.
This played out in SG1 with Thor and the Asgard against the Gaold...then the Replicators as they called in a favor.
This should have played out in original Star Trek with Balock's First Federation. When The Borg showed up in TNG and several other crisis...why didn't starfleet call to Balock. Conveniently forgotten.
It is a literary metaphor of G-d or Daemons (not demons). Why not just wipe our the evil aeons and archons. The false gods. Why make humans decide and fight them?
@@STho205 DOesn't really work with capital-G-God. The Vorlons couldn't just snap the Shadows out of existence. Same - even more so - with the Asgard. They were holding on to dear life against the replicators and were only bluffing against the Goauld.
With Star Trek, you can take the Q as nigh-omnipotent beings as comparison. Why do they allow others to suffer? They at least have the excuse that they are fallible beings that just ascended (to a far higher plane than the ascended in SG, and with fewer rules).
They didn't create humanity or the Universe, they just observe it and play with it. And they don't pretend they are merciful.
@@boooster101 most Sci Fi with godlike beings is based on: Gnostic Sethism
Platonism
Arianism (Bishop Arias and Jesus is not God but God's messenger)
Mormonism
and especially....Scientology.
In many of these heresies, as viewed by trinitarian or Jewish orthodox) there are rival gods in the temporal realm, even if there is one perfect form God above it all....that God does not interact.
B5 is based on 1st Ones coming into existence then the Vorlons and Shadows are Aeons that become Archons....administrators of this galaxy. They are paired as Plato described, appearing good and evil but beyond good and evil. The galaxy is corrupt and all races are fundamentally evil, they just appear good because they are being watched by others. People are born evil and must be forced to be good. For some it becomes more natural than others, and their spirit element is gold or silver, not brass or copper.
Everyone's equal but some are more equal than others by their essential form....Plato.
SF writers love this stuff. It has nothing to do with traditional orthodox religion though it may seem Familia....they pick the weird religion or Greek and Egyptian mythology for fun stories of the bizarre.
@@STho205 because the moment you introduce the God... The arguments of real life tend to crop up like the problem of evil.
And that's not too tough and controversial for scifi.
Think of Marvel, TOAA is God. And they absolutely had to go down the "i work in mysterious ways" excuse whEn Spiderman met him.
@@boooster101 comic books all use heresy religions. Always have. If you try to apply it to modern religion you can be mislead.
You need to understand stable mainstream theology to compare. Otherwise it may as well be Apollo or Horus or Quexiquotle.
The needs of the few out weight the needs of the many...DOes a superior intellect bow down to 3, 4, 5 worlds of people whotry to live inpeace? KOSH had a very sticky problem
You do not understand.... but you will
omg... i do sound like a vorlon/elohim.
And Kosh dies at the end of this episode when Morden and his Shadow buddies ambush him.
You think Sinclair was epic when he basicaly CREATED the first ranger in the shadow war back in their time? Yea think again, Sheridan is multiple times as badass. He basicaly STOPED GOD from going anywhere UNTIL he got what he wanted.
I think Kosh knew his line from the scrip, and did not improvise much, Sheridan performed his lines with a bit of reservation, in all I think they should have had a few more takes, we could ponder this from the director's point of view, but nah. lol.
DO SOMETHING !!!
Then the Shadows killed Kosh.
What was Naranek supposed to mean?
Either “ambassador” or “respected elder”, I assume.
It's a title or rank within the Vorlon government. One of the books suggested it means "Speaker", but either way it's pretty high up there.
You do not understand.
'
Don't just do something ! Stand there !
The Poor-mans Arisian. And John is too frail, and not wise enough to even be fit for a Lens, let alone contribute to The Unit.
Donald Trump and NATO.
haha exactly
In no way at all.
...except that in B5, both parties are noble, and powerful, and not a bunch of losers.