this Dialog that Kosh delivers to Sharadin in the form of his father is just brilliant ... just shows how much he really cared for him, how amazing Kosh really was. He admits he was at fault and a little scared, and proud, but he apologises. RIP Kosh ... you were the best Vorlon, you really were
Kosh was the only one of the old races who cared about the younger races. Exposure, maybe. But he knew the Vorlons wanted to fuck them up, just like the shadows. But he was like Lorien. Knew they needed their own path and sacrificed his life for the new future. Fucking hero alien! Love B5
This whole thing - Sheridan standing up to Kosh, and after Kosh gives in, his even misinterpreting the "If you want to withhold your help when the time comes" as being a bit of pettiness and only realizing that it was because Kosh knew what the consequences would be for the Vorlons moving openly was one of the most brilliant bits of character and plot in a pretty bloody brilliant series. (paraphrased) "He was afraid - you would never think he could be afraid . . ."
This scene was in my opinion one of the saddest scenes in the Babylon 5 series. Kosh was always my favorite character, and the fact he gave his life to help give the hope needed to organize the younger races. Self Sacrifice if ever i have seen it.
The genius of this scene is that Kosh, when faced with his death, hurries himself to to Sheridan as if Sheridan were his Confessor. Kosh blames himself for his stubbornness, and wants to tell his "son" how proud he is of him -- hence appearing as Sheridan's dad. And yet Kosh is so much older, and wiser... bet yet he becomes vulnerable here, not to the Shadows, but to Sheridan. This is one of the most powerful scenes you'll watch in fiction.
Not a lot tears me up but even after all these years this scene makes me misty-eyed. He was a dick most of the time but I loved Kosh-something that became more certain when Ulkesh/Kosh 2.0 crashed the party.
I like how the scene ties very well with another episode, the one with the mass murderer brainwashed and serving with brother Theo's monks. At some point, the monk, wonders what he would do if he was put in the position of Jesus at Garden of Ghetsemani and by the end of the episode, he gets his wish. Surprisingly, Kosh was put exactly in the same position: he knew shadows would come after his ass and he could have chosen to walk away, take his ship and fly to Vorlon homeworld, but instead, he decided to hold his ground and face the shadows.
This scene just adds to make Kosh more or just as human as us. To which later in the series even Lyta comments that this Kosh seems to have cared more about the younger races than the other Vorlons.
That may have even been the first time the Shadows and Vorlon had ever fought, and its likely the "agreement" had existed for millions of years. By destroying a fleet of Shadows, Kosh destroyed the Shadows veneer of invincibility, seriously weakening them and throwing their plans into disarray. Kosh was one of the oldest Vorlons, so he could probably remember the Vorlons being a young race. Most Vorlons had closed minds, Kosh had an open one.
+oomusd I agree with what you say, but I remember hearing a woman on a podcast actually saying what Kosh was doing in this scene was "Manipulative, Patriarchal bullshit" suffice to say I disagree with her opinion!
According Lorien, the Vorlon are younger but not by much. Remember when Sheridan was on Zhadun, Lorien said his people discovered the Vorlon and the Shadows in their "infancy"
I have mixed feelings for this scene. on the one hand, it's well done and beautiful. on the other Kosh was one of my favorite characters and I didn't want to see him go.
I love how Kosh turned when he sensed Morden and the Shadows. He may not have a face but I could tell he was having that moment from Signs and Portents, thinking, "You really want to do this again?"
Ser Torrhen Clegane well I'm just saying that considering Mr Morden brock/picked the lock this would quickly eliminate the just popping in for a friendly visit option whom else would break into a Vorlons quarters in the middle of the night and you have a point maybe Vorlons only sleep two minutes a day for all we know
For me Kosh wasn't like the rest of the vorlons he still acted like a father thinking he was right but he cared for the younger races and especially he cared for Sheridan I think he really loved Sheridan.. I wonder if Kosh knew Sheridan is going to be a legend or he just felt Sheridan has a destiny?? Anyway I always loved Kosh and Sheridan scenes and this one is making me teary.
A reply to an old comment, but I find that Bruce did not know this was Kosh in the scene until 5 years later unbelievable. Just look at 2:08, where Sheridan's face show he understands that it isn't his dad, but really was Kosh. Plus the whole calling out the name Kosh in his sleep. I'm fairly certain Bruce knew that he was talking to Kosh in the scene.
At the end of the episode they put Kosh's belongings in his ship. It was made for and apart of him so in memory of Kosh as its last act it flys into the sun.
Ulkehs' voice was meant this way for the exact purpose of conveying that this wasn't Kosh and his ways were different. Likely he was "younger" than Kosh as well.
The Vorlons and the Shadows believed the younger races should become like them (the result of their ideologies would be that only those races who did things their way would survive. They believe everyone should be like them. Kosh, being one of the oldest Vorlons, maybe even one of the first of his kind, could remember when the Vorlons were themselves a young race.
IDK if Vorlons were younger, way I figured it, they were more like "brothers" with the Shadows being the younger ones. Eitherway, fact being: it took several (more than the two with Morden) to take Kosh down. And they still had to bust through whatever protection offered by the encounter suit (cracking the shell to reach the inside, esque), before they could expose him out (this part is signified by when we see on Morden's face the light cracking out in middle) and fight him "on the level".
Vorlons are practically uncorporeal, while shadows are corporeal, they can became invisible and squeese anywhere but have a real physical presence (IR camera wich shows them in the cell with Morden) It would take special weapons or powers to kill a Vorlon while standard weapons can hurt the Shadows.. Shadows certainly at this point would know what they had to do to kill a Vorlon .. younger races didnt.. but their weapons still could kill unprotectd Shadows
Interludes and Examinations. S03E15. One of the best scenes from the whole show. "Its ok son. See, ***as long as you're here, I'll always be here***" Poignant and enigmatic. Love it.
the later kosh was more a warrior, the original kosh was a diplomat, a guide so to speak... and he was more attached to the other species, cared for them... it was a really sad moment when he was killed.
We know there was a titanic struggle between the Shadows and Kosh. Note the shadows sent three of them to kill Kosh. I wonder how many Kosh took with him more than three i'd wager.
+RustiSwordz None. Kosh accepted that he was the price to pay for Vorlon assistance in the war. He made them work for it but if he had killed any the Shadows would have looked for further vengeance and Kosh didn't want that.
that i think is why they start becoming much harsher and more ruthless after this point ... when kosh died a part of them died with him, the better part that really did care for others
with all of them being telepaths, it is possible that the vorlons developed a united mind, no longer being complete individuals, more like sharing a part of yourself with all others. for example when he died, all other vorlons immediately knew, because a part of themselves died with kosh.
Kosh is a great being, caring and guiding the younger races... Kosh is also a manipulative bastard... Both are true its all a matter of perspective. Kosh takes on the role of many gods/angels and well if your religious imagine if you found out your religion was actually just based on some alien visit intended to direct your development and evolution.. If G'kar knew his revelation was from Kosh would he have accepted it as readily as he accepted a revelation from his holiest figure?
The Shadows and the Vorlons have both been around the same amount of time. In that time the Shadows and the Vorlons have warred on and off, so they would have had to come up with methods of killing Vorlons outside of there ships, or else they would be vulnerable.
Unlikely, given Kosh's more lenient stance as opposed to the rest of the Vorlons (Ulkesh in particular). A telepathic link, certainly, but they're still individuals.
@bluntman1138 I think the misunderstanding came from when Ulkesh first came to babylon 5. They asked him what he was called, and kept saying Kosh. "We are all Kosh".
@thedragon133 If you mean Ulkesh I'd say that he was more military than warrior. Ulkesh always thought that Kosh was soft and Kosh always considered Ulkesh to be dangerous. Ulkesh also used to be the ambassador to Mimbar, he makes a cameo when Sinclair leaves Mimbar for his final visit to Babylon 5.
I don't think it was the first time they ever fought but it's possible that the Agreement stipulates that the Vorlons can intervene directly on behalf of the Younger Races but at the cost of one of their own. However, given how selfish and self-centered the Vorlons are it is probably rare that a Vorlon would sacrifice itself in such a manner.
The vorlons and the shadows were more like two brothers fighting. Lorien was like the dad that the two competed for attention. The other first ones were like little cousins.
It sucked that Kosh was murdered by the Shadows. He actually cared about the younger races unlike his asshole of a successor. I wonder how many of the Vorlons were like Kosh? In any case, I can imagine many Vorlons wanting to wipe out the Shadows or at the very least, make them suffer for killing Kosh, I know that I would.
the guy who watched in the gas mask got his in the end. as i recall, the centauri cut off his head and put it on a pike. just thought id put that out there to ease those who might have though Kosh wouldnt be avenged
I'm not sure that all Vorlons were telepaths, advanced as they were...in discussing the aliens from third space lyra makes special note that every one of their species were telepaths, as if this was something special, even in relation to the Vorlons...
@mornmeril or maybe like the shadows with Delenn Ivanova and Lyta (when they visited Zhadum looking for sheridan) He went for an image that was just important for Sheridian coz we know that he always put emphasis on caring for his dad. (eg Calling before he declared independence for B5)
@bluntman1138 They have only seen the series? His real name was never mentioned there, it isn't that surprising that some people either don't know it or might think that 'Ulkesh' is an unofficial/fan name that somehow got attached to him.
@dtapia1000 If I remember correctly, Sheridan asked Kosh to take the open fight with Shadows. At the request of Sheridan, Vorlon fleet at first time repelled the Shadows attacks in open format. So, tacit Agreement on Non-Aggression between Vorlons and Shadows has been broken. Kosh murder was the response of Shadows.
From what I can tell, the Shadows were the eldest of the First Ones save Lorien's people with the Vorlons being one of the youngest of the FOs (although I'm not sure about this).
As much as I understand why Sheridan said what he said to Kosh earlier in this episode I cannot help but blame him for Kosh getting killed. I know the Vorlons were needed but if Sherridan hadn't pushed like he did, then Kosh, my favourite character by the way, wouldn't have been murdered like this.
Stupid that kosh died like this, considering how we see a vorlon kick ass later when the new kosh is fighting B5 security nothing can touch him yet we see regular centari firearms kill mordons shadow guards with little difficulty how is it kosh dies so easy? disapointing. The shadow war ending was disapointing as well. Still an awsome series though.
rediculous scene, Sheridan raped a Shadow with a normal PPG yet a full squad couldnt even touch a vorlon Encounter suit lol kosh would have just raped mordan and those shadows really.
this Dialog that Kosh delivers to Sharadin in the form of his father is just brilliant ... just shows how much he really cared for him, how amazing Kosh really was. He admits he was at fault and a little scared, and proud, but he apologises.
RIP Kosh ... you were the best Vorlon, you really were
When Kosh turns to Mordin and tilts his helmet, its almost as if he was saying "What took you so long?"
And so Kosh died... most of him... he left a little part of himself in Sheriden... the part which told Sheriden "Jump. Jump now.".
Kosh was the only one of the old races who cared about the younger races. Exposure, maybe. But he knew the Vorlons wanted to fuck them up, just like the shadows. But he was like Lorien. Knew they needed their own path and sacrificed his life for the new future. Fucking hero alien! Love B5
This whole thing - Sheridan standing up to Kosh, and after Kosh gives in, his even misinterpreting the "If you want to withhold your help when the time comes" as being a bit of pettiness and only realizing that it was because Kosh knew what the consequences would be for the Vorlons moving openly was one of the most brilliant bits of character and plot in a pretty bloody brilliant series.
(paraphrased) "He was afraid - you would never think he could be afraid . . ."
This scene was in my opinion one of the saddest scenes in the Babylon 5 series. Kosh was always my favorite character, and the fact he gave his life to help give the hope needed to organize the younger races. Self Sacrifice if ever i have seen it.
The genius of this scene is that Kosh, when faced with his death, hurries himself to to Sheridan as if Sheridan were his Confessor. Kosh blames himself for his stubbornness, and wants to tell his "son" how proud he is of him -- hence appearing as Sheridan's dad. And yet Kosh is so much older, and wiser... bet yet he becomes vulnerable here, not to the Shadows, but to Sheridan.
This is one of the most powerful scenes you'll watch in fiction.
Not a lot tears me up but even after all these years this scene makes me misty-eyed. He was a dick most of the time but I loved Kosh-something that became more certain when Ulkesh/Kosh 2.0 crashed the party.
I like how the scene ties very well with another episode, the one with the mass murderer brainwashed and serving with brother Theo's monks. At some point, the monk, wonders what he would do if he was put in the position of Jesus at Garden of Ghetsemani and by the end of the episode, he gets his wish.
Surprisingly, Kosh was put exactly in the same position: he knew shadows would come after his ass and he could have chosen to walk away, take his ship and fly to Vorlon homeworld, but instead, he decided to hold his ground and face the shadows.
This scene just adds to make Kosh more or just as human as us. To which later in the series even Lyta comments that this Kosh seems to have cared more about the younger races than the other Vorlons.
That may have even been the first time the Shadows and Vorlon had ever fought, and its likely the "agreement" had existed for millions of years. By destroying a fleet of Shadows, Kosh destroyed the Shadows veneer of invincibility, seriously weakening them and throwing their plans into disarray.
Kosh was one of the oldest Vorlons, so he could probably remember the Vorlons being a young race. Most Vorlons had closed minds, Kosh had an open one.
If you ever live to be more than 100,000 years old, you might be a little cryptic too!
Damn... This scene still gets me. Poor old Kosh. A powerful ending for a powerful character.
it was a moment of beauty, how Kosh, in the end, opened to Sheridan to assure him it was the good decision.
+oomusd I agree with what you say, but I remember hearing a woman on a podcast actually saying what Kosh was doing in this scene was "Manipulative, Patriarchal bullshit" suffice to say I disagree with her opinion!
always thought it was cool that the dad was played by Ron Howard's real like father. He did a great job!
According Lorien, the Vorlon are younger but not by much. Remember when Sheridan was on Zhadun, Lorien said his people discovered the Vorlon and the Shadows in their "infancy"
I have mixed feelings for this scene. on the one hand, it's well done and beautiful. on the other Kosh was one of my favorite characters and I didn't want to see him go.
*sniff sniff* After all these years, it still gets me. RIP Kosh.
I love how Kosh turned when he sensed Morden and the Shadows. He may not have a face but I could tell he was having that moment from Signs and Portents, thinking, "You really want to do this again?"
It's the tipt of his head.
who else would be walking in unannounced in the night
Who's to say that his other visitors didn't show up at night? We know next to nothing about Vorlon sleeping habits. Maybe he is nocturnal.
Ser Torrhen Clegane well I'm just saying that considering Mr Morden brock/picked the lock this would quickly eliminate the just popping in for a friendly visit option whom else would break into a Vorlons quarters in the middle of the night and you have a point maybe Vorlons only sleep two minutes a day for all we know
Good point.
For me Kosh wasn't like the rest of the vorlons he still acted like a father thinking he was right but he cared for the younger races and especially he cared for Sheridan I think he really loved Sheridan.. I wonder if Kosh knew Sheridan is going to be a legend or he just felt Sheridan has a destiny?? Anyway I always loved Kosh and Sheridan scenes and this one is making me teary.
A reply to an old comment, but I find that Bruce did not know this was Kosh in the scene until 5 years later unbelievable. Just look at 2:08, where Sheridan's face show he understands that it isn't his dad, but really was Kosh. Plus the whole calling out the name Kosh in his sleep. I'm fairly certain Bruce knew that he was talking to Kosh in the scene.
At the end of the episode they put Kosh's belongings in his ship. It was made for and apart of him so in memory of Kosh as its last act it flys into the sun.
I always loved this scene
Igot the impression that Kosh showing himself as John's father means he treated Sherridan like a son.
Ulkehs' voice was meant this way for the exact purpose of conveying that this wasn't Kosh and his ways were different.
Likely he was "younger" than Kosh as well.
Its a triumph of a sci fi series when we can emphathise with a less anthropomorphic entity.
The Vorlons and the Shadows believed the younger races should become like them (the result of their ideologies would be that only those races who did things their way would survive. They believe everyone should be like them.
Kosh, being one of the oldest Vorlons, maybe even one of the first of his kind, could remember when the Vorlons were themselves a young race.
IDK if Vorlons were younger, way I figured it, they were more like "brothers" with the Shadows being the younger ones.
Eitherway, fact being: it took several (more than the two with Morden) to take Kosh down.
And they still had to bust through whatever protection offered by the encounter suit (cracking the shell to reach the inside, esque), before they could expose him out (this part is signified by when we see on Morden's face the light cracking out in middle) and fight him "on the level".
yeah, Sheridan probably had as much of an impact on Kosh, as Kosh had on Sheridan.
Vorlons are practically uncorporeal, while shadows are corporeal, they can became invisible and squeese anywhere but have a real physical presence (IR camera wich shows them in the cell with Morden) It would take special weapons or powers to kill a Vorlon while standard weapons can hurt the Shadows.. Shadows certainly at this point would know what they had to do to kill a Vorlon .. younger races didnt.. but their weapons still could kill unprotectd Shadows
As Ulkesh Kosh said, "We are all Kosh"
Thematically very similar to Passing Through Gethsemane, another good B5 episode.
Interludes and Examinations. S03E15.
One of the best scenes from the whole show.
"Its ok son. See, ***as long as you're here, I'll always be here***" Poignant and enigmatic. Love it.
Is it me or does Morden actually look sad when you see Kosh's destruction in his face plate?
the later kosh was more a warrior, the original kosh was a diplomat, a guide so to speak... and he was more attached to the other species, cared for them... it was a really sad moment when he was killed.
We know there was a titanic struggle between the Shadows and Kosh. Note the shadows sent three of them to kill Kosh. I wonder how many Kosh took with him more than three i'd wager.
+RustiSwordz None. Kosh accepted that he was the price to pay for Vorlon assistance in the war. He made them work for it but if he had killed any the Shadows would have looked for further vengeance and Kosh didn't want that.
Probably at least one of the three.
*sniff* RIP Kosh. I heard people were pretty pissed on-set when JMS killed him off.
that i think is why they start becoming much harsher and more ruthless after this point ... when kosh died a part of them died with him, the better part that really did care for others
with all of them being telepaths, it is possible that the vorlons developed a united mind, no longer being complete individuals, more like sharing a part of yourself with all others. for example when he died, all other vorlons immediately knew, because a part of themselves died with kosh.
Kosh was AWESOME WHY DID THEY HAVE TO KILL HIM = (
They are all Kosh.
Kosh is a great being, caring and guiding the younger races... Kosh is also a manipulative bastard... Both are true its all a matter of perspective. Kosh takes on the role of many gods/angels and well if your religious imagine if you found out your religion was actually just based on some alien visit intended to direct your development and evolution..
If G'kar knew his revelation was from Kosh would he have accepted it as readily as he accepted a revelation from his holiest figure?
Rance howard. Cool Oppie's dad.
Couldn't have put it better myself.. Such a sad part of B5...
*sniff sniff* Damn it ...something in my eye .... Kosh .....
The Shadows and the Vorlons have both been around the same amount of time. In that time the Shadows and the Vorlons have warred on and off, so they would have had to come up with methods of killing Vorlons outside of there ships, or else they would be vulnerable.
@dtapia1000 |The creator says that Kosh himself insisted. Not the actor, the character in his head. It was his time.
Unlikely, given Kosh's more lenient stance as opposed to the rest of the Vorlons (Ulkesh in particular). A telepathic link, certainly, but they're still individuals.
According to expanded universe novels, Shadows are also beings of pure energy, but they prefer material form.
it shows how much trust sheridan had earned with kosh and it later turns out he had placed a small part of his personality into him as well :)
@bluntman1138 I think the misunderstanding came from when Ulkesh first came to babylon 5. They asked him what he was called, and kept saying Kosh. "We are all Kosh".
@thedragon133 If you mean Ulkesh I'd say that he was more military than warrior. Ulkesh always thought that Kosh was soft and Kosh always considered Ulkesh to be dangerous. Ulkesh also used to be the ambassador to Mimbar, he makes a cameo when Sinclair leaves Mimbar for his final visit to Babylon 5.
I don't think it was the first time they ever fought but it's possible that the Agreement stipulates that the Vorlons can intervene directly on behalf of the Younger Races but at the cost of one of their own. However, given how selfish and self-centered the Vorlons are it is probably rare that a Vorlon would sacrifice itself in such a manner.
miss the grumpy old floating sack of whatever :>
The vorlons and the shadows were more like two brothers fighting. Lorien was like the dad that the two competed for attention. The other first ones were like little cousins.
It sucked that Kosh was murdered by the Shadows. He actually cared about the younger races unlike his asshole of a successor. I wonder how many of the Vorlons were like Kosh?
In any case, I can imagine many Vorlons wanting to wipe out the Shadows or at the very least, make them suffer for killing Kosh, I know that I would.
the guy who watched in the gas mask got his in the end. as i recall, the centauri cut off his head and put it on a pike. just thought id put that out there to ease those who might have though Kosh wouldnt be avenged
I'm not sure that all Vorlons were telepaths, advanced as they were...in discussing the aliens from third space lyra makes special note that every one of their species were telepaths, as if this was something special, even in relation to the Vorlons...
@mornmeril
or maybe like the shadows with Delenn Ivanova and Lyta (when they visited Zhadum looking for sheridan)
He went for an image that was just important for Sheridian coz we know that he always put emphasis on caring for his dad. (eg Calling before he declared independence for B5)
"Kosh..."
Made me cry ;_;
yes
Be forever Kosh...
Кош!!!!
such a sad episode, it cant believe i got upset when they killed off kosh, his replacement in my opinion did measure up.
And you know what's the funny part? Darwin actually thought that Altruism is GOOD for survival of the species, after giving it some thought.
@dtapia1000 It was inevitable. At this time the pebbles were in motion.
las sombras y los vorlon son los mas jovenes de los first ones,y se requirieron mas de 4 sombras para matar a kosh
@bluntman1138 : Ulkesh's name was never given in the series as shown on TV, thus "Kosh 2".
or that Sherridan was family maybe a Vorlon like Valan was human
@bluntman1138 They have only seen the series? His real name was never mentioned there, it isn't that surprising that some people either don't know it or might think that 'Ulkesh' is an unofficial/fan name that somehow got attached to him.
as kosh would say...
here the circuit is complete.
Yeah, that part can only be commented upon with a simple "LOLOWNED".
@dtapia1000 If I remember correctly, Sheridan asked Kosh to take the open fight with Shadows. At the request of Sheridan, Vorlon fleet at first time repelled the Shadows attacks in open format. So, tacit Agreement on Non-Aggression between Vorlons and Shadows has been broken. Kosh murder was the response of Shadows.
So this is what happens when an "angel" dies rip Kosh
@bluntman1138 because that WAS his official fan name before he was given his name Ulkesh. ;)
It's Ron Howard's dad!
From what I can tell, the Shadows were the eldest of the First Ones save Lorien's people with the Vorlons being one of the youngest of the FOs (although I'm not sure about this).
How the hell are you supposed to kill a Vorlon?! They aren't even a physical form!
Why are people calling him Kosh 2. His name is officially Ulkesh Kosh.
@jamesholder13
a lot of sibling rivalry methinks
well, according to b5 angels are just vorlons. ;-)
what chapter??
Morden should've known then he was a marked man by all on B5.
-This-. Seconded
Why didn't he just leave Babylon 5?
But all the vorlons are named kosh so that creates it's own set of confusion.
If went wonder how it would of turned out
me too
the vorlons were a lot younger than the shadows, even though they were "first ones". like humans and minbari.
@mornmeril You too huh?
As much as I understand why Sheridan said what he said to Kosh earlier in this episode I cannot help but blame him for Kosh getting killed.
I know the Vorlons were needed but if Sherridan hadn't pushed like he did, then Kosh, my favourite character by the way, wouldn't have been murdered like this.
@bluntman1138
Ulkesh Naranek
FUUUUUUCK RUclips is full of spoilers.
Stupid that kosh died like this, considering how we see a vorlon kick ass later when the new kosh is fighting B5 security nothing can touch him yet we see regular centari firearms kill mordons shadow guards with little difficulty how is it kosh dies so easy? disapointing.
The shadow war ending was disapointing as well. Still an awsome series though.
Ugh.
rediculous scene, Sheridan raped a Shadow with a normal PPG yet a full squad couldnt even touch a vorlon Encounter suit lol kosh would have just raped mordan and those shadows really.
altruism is a fault, not a virtue. Kosh was *not* altruistic.
Kosh was ridiculously=looking with those little wings on his shoulders. Very poor character design.