I feel that a deeper dive into translation would be too much for me, being a layman and not having enough knowledge to appreciate the nuances. I would still watch it of course for the little information I could get from it... bur don´t let my comment discourage you from doing it. I appreciate your effort and passion doing these vidsl. Thank you very much for this garden of knowledge you keep watering and tending. All the best for you
@@fernandosanz4422 Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand that. I will make an effort to make it as easy to understand as I can if I do :)
I appreciate your logical and unbiased academic approach to questions like this. A lot of other people seem to let their religious beliefs influence their opinion on these topics, this is a very refreshing take! Thank you Sir.
Poetic Edda's always been my absolute favorite book and Hávamál is my favorite poem in it, I've read it so many times and yet it's so deep and there's so much to learn every time. It's so fascinating. Thank you for the analysis and the references in the description!!
Hey Jon, Very interessting video. The hanging of Odin had indeed an esoteric load, and it has parallels with other cultures. The Hanged God was also know in the classical world, and this was also associated with initiation. Orpheos-Bakkikos, was a hanged God, and in wich Orpheus became Bachcus. The god of initiation and extacy. The symbol is older then christainity and maybe christians took it over from pagans... ? Early christians had the fish as symbol, not the cross. Besides Europe, we find that hanging in the wolrd tree is common in Siberian shamanism, where the shaman should also remain nine nights in the world tree before he starts his magic flight. That world tree had an eagle on the top and a monster at his roots, just like Yggdrasil. There is no mentioning of Odin having a magic flight after hanging on the world tree. But we have the myth of his visit with Gunnlod, he enters like a snake (symbol of regeneration, leaving the old skin behind), and after 3 nights (and each night drinking of the mead), he steels the mead in the shape of an eagle (flying to the heavens/gods). This is like the shamanic magic fligth. And there is a parallel with christianity, because after 3 days in his grave, Jesus resurrected. Maybe there is a connection with the initiation as, remaining 3 nights in the underwolrd/grave/cave (home of the dragon/snake), and hanging on the world tree, extacy (wine, mead, mushrooms), and the magic flight (the eagle). There is a lott more esoteric symbolism in this then at first sight. greetings, Benny
Hi Benny, yes there is so much more to this than I've mentioned here. I do touch on initiation, but even then we're assuming the translation and context is correct, and there are significant doubts about that and I will go into the detail more in the future. Thanks for taking the time to comment :)
I was wondering about this too - could it be that both Odin and Jesus' 'sacrifice' are connecting to an earlier tradition rather than the former the latter ?
@@julesgosnell9791 I personally think it's unlikely at a low level of analysis, but I'm sure an argument could be made at a high level that all forms of sacrifice are fundamentally for the same reason, they are sacrifices after all.
"Nor do I know how tenaciously the reader is going to cling to the idea, advertised by Dr. Freud, that all higher thought, except psychoanalysis, is a function of infantile anxiety." [The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology, Joseph Campbell, 1991, Part 3: Ch. 5- "Shamanism"]
That one was short but sweet. What beliefs influence other beliefs as time passes and times change have always been of great interest to me. It is fascinating to look at who takes credit for what, and who reviles what, when it comes to myth and folklore. Though this is a common quality of humankind, I have always been especially keen on hunting down and sussing out patterns. I think that's why I like this field of study, and specifically this channel. Jon tells us what is said, what the scholarly consensus is, how he sees it and why.
I hope you're still considering an interview/discussion with Biblical scholar Ben Stanhope. I recall him admiring the Norse myths and mentioning how he sees similarities in Odin sacrificing himself to get the runes for himself and humanity or Tyr offering his hand to bind Fenrir (these his claim). It would be interesting to see you two guys chat about creation-stories, cosmology or combat-myths. He has a lot of insight in the Bible and Ancient Near East, while you have with Indo-European stuff, and where these cultural worldviews resemble and differ from each other.
What you did not mention is that this same scene is depicted on the tomb lid of Lord Pakal in The House of the Nine Sharpened Spears. Here he hangs from the windy tree, or tree of the four winds, and "falls back", just as Odin does.
What jumps to mind for me is Odin has referred himself (I forget which story) as the High, the Higher, and the Highest, which to me sounds like Odin the man, Odin the spirit, and Odin the god. Odin sacrificed himself as Odin the man to Odin the god, which allowed Odin the spirit to enter the underworld to gain knowledge, as many heroes and gods in many mythos have done.
Well, strictly speaking he didn’t. You’re quoting Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Prose Edda where that comes from, and he very much added a Christian bias to the story. And so it is likely that this has happened here making us think Odin is comparing himself to the trinity etc
Doubly so in a language written over 700 years ago, and which itself was written in an abbreviated and unformatted form, and which itself was a scribed and subject to human error.
Now, I am totally alone on this, but if there was a slim possibility that I might be close, I think a great example is the Buddhist symbol of The 1000 Petal Lotus that is the seat/throne of each Buddha in the sutras (origin of suture, meaning [woven] threads). I wanna say I "discovered", but have to settle for 'made up' the idea that the image is literally a reference to the physical brain. The Buddha likewise, though a historic figure, is simultaneously a symbol of... 'A frame of mind'. The symbol of the Buddha on the lotus is the reality of the relationship between the brain & [a type of] behavior. The Buddha raises the [1000 petal) lotus[es] out of the 'sea' (water=The [collective] unconscious), raises it into 'the air' (air/winds are thought operations; i.e. the mind we each "hear") & then reveals the truth. But the imagery IS the message.... To me. Like, in the Bible, I believe the prime figure of evil is a symbol for a fully matured, initiated (if I may), shamanistically developed, Self; i.e. a healthy, uninjured, balanced Psyche. And "God" is literally a symbol for "personal opinion", which can be further distilled to an actual psychic injury, as real as a physical amputation. But, I am just a janitor.... & a troll.
I’m very interested in hearing more about the connection between hanging gods and shamanic practices. Love having a cup of tea and listening to your videos.
"They [The Greeks] also looked upon the Oak as having produced the first men, & Oak trees were called first mothers. The Romans also shared this belief. And Juvenal, in his Sixth Satire, speaks of mankind as born of the opening Oak which, motherlike, fed man with her own acorns; while Ovid says that man's first food was acorns dropping from the tree of Jove." [The Forest: In Folklore & Mythology, Alexander Porteous, 1928/2002, p. 157] "The most primitive & simple of religious beliefs among both northern & southern races connected the object with the divinity, & when the Ancients declared the Oak sacred to Zeus, they identified the tree with the god-in other words, the tree itself was the god, & in very primitive times was worshipped as such. This hypothesis is still further elaborated by the fact that the Oak is the tree most often struck by lightning, & Zeus, being the God of Thunder, or the Thunder itself, dwelt in, or rather had his being in, an Oak tree. Prof. Harris puts it thus: "The Thunder-god goes back to the Thunder-man, or into the Thunder-bird or Thunder-tree; Zeus takes the stately form in vegetable life of the Oak-tree, or if he must be flesh & blood, he comes back as a Red-headed Woodpecker. " The parasites of the Oak such as Mistletoe & Ivy, would evidently partake of the attributes of the tree & would thus be the thunder also. In the case of the Ivy a new & subordinate Thunder God would become evolved under the name of Dionysos, & Prof. Harris says: "Dionysos is the ivy; in the first instance he is ivy, nothing more or less" ; & again; "The tree is the thunder & makes all its parasites & its denizens thunder also."" [The Forest: In Folklore & Mythology, Alexander Porteous, 1928/2002, p. 160-61]
I've just found your channel and this is very interesting! Perhaps we all descend as descendents into this material matter with dimensional awareness? 🤔.
Hello Mr. White! It’s me again. I hope this shows how strongly my previously stated POV seems worthy of consideration. -I think that this segment of the Hávamá l referrs to the author’s personal story about his Koryos rite of passage ritual. -It was an encrypted way to pass details about their Koryos ritual to other like minded followers. -It seems that the writer believed that Odin was his clan’s ritual leader. -”Given to Odin, myself to myself” The writer is sacrificing his boyhood for the clan, which he will forever be a part of. -Maybe when mentioning the tree, it was a symbol of writer’s clan tree, just as we use family trees today. -The tree has roots that evidentially predated anyone’s knowledge. The Neanderthals went extinct like 35kya, right? Yeah, the wolf ritual’s origin story had probably long been forgotten by the time this was written. -The writer seems to be referring to himself as the tree’s fruit as it hangs from tree branches, until it’s fully mature. After the ritual, the writer will find his place on earth. Probably plant his own seeds, become a berserker, or maybe even ritual leader himself somewhere. -Being a windswept tree indicates that the writer (the fruit) will be fully exposed to challenging elements, such as wind. -The ritual probably lasted for 9 months to correlate with human gestation cycles symbolizing rebirth. -”Was given no food nor drink” to a person who has studied the Koryos, this is too obvious to describe. - Some runes were given by the clan’s cult leader and the elders, but more runes would also be learned first hand, during the ritual’s 9 months of wolf like lawlessness. During the raids, there was probably a lot of “shreiking and screaming”. All the while he took mental notes regarding his various successful strategies. He would traditionally pass these runes down to later initiates. -The spear is THE only traditional Koryos ritual weapon so I’m not surprised to hear about the writer being marked by one. I wonder if he believed that he was branded by the famous Gungnir spear. Because dying in battle was glorious to them, maybe that was the spear mark being referred to.. It could go either way, really. Most probably, the author couldn’t find any better way of mentioning the spear. He would’ve had to do it very carefully. This detail could’ve been the most easily noticed by Christians. I hear your skepticism about Christian influences but this one doesn’t seem to be as badly corrupted as many others histories that I’ve studied. Christians and other monarchs, are most likely the reason why the poem was written so cryptically. The Koryos was absolutely meant to be kept a secret for reasons which we can discuss later. Again, this is a continuation of my original hypothesis. They won’t keep appearing in your comments if they’re not appreciated. Would you like to discuss Alexander the Great’s Lion helmet also? Google my name. There’s only one Gringo Curt, but I live in paradise just so you know that you’re contacting the correct person. Cheers!
I appreciate good writing but not as much as I appreciate finding details that paint a more logical picture than history movies are presently showing the public. Originally, I just wanted to put everything sapien onto a timeline. Then I wanted it to make sense, because no one could. This seemed rather hopeless, until I found the Koryos. Now finally, I think that my timeline sensibly and logically leads a seamless line into how world corruption evolved into what we experience even now. I think that this subject is much bigger than you are realizing. It's much more than just understanding a few Viking vs. Christian tales. When Europe became full of Koryos Cultists, the clan leaders would have needed to become political otherwise they would've just kept knocking each other's legs out from underneath themselves. The Koryos is an expansion focused cult ritual. When there were Koryos from sea to sea, the expansion part could no longer be a thing. You are a great teacher. hopefully you're the kind that's motivated to keep learning. We don't grow if we lose motivation. This idea of mine, is the big kind. It runs into other subjects. In other words, it could be a really good networking tool, from your viewpoint. RUclips likes that, right? It's all around your wheelhouse and luckily it's beyond it too. How much you want to grow is up to you. Hit me up... Costs you nothing.
good video! This would be related to the sacrifices to the god Esus prior to Christianity, possibly related to the Indo-European worldview of cyclical death and rebirth
Hello, John! Thanks for the new video! Are there stories about the hanging of a deity or hero in other Indo-European cultures? Do Indians or Iranians have such stories?
To mind there is Attis and Osiris, and you could probably throw Adonis in there and maybe Isis, depending on the versions of the myth, as deities who were hanged? Heroes are more plentiful, and perhaps I will make a video about these as there is too much to write here :)
@@Crecganford Many thanks! It is very interesting! May I ask you, when you have the opportunity, to make a video about Zarathustra? Why was the concept of "suryas" and "asuras" opposite among Iranians and Indians? Is there an analogue of the Soma or Haoma drink among European "relatives"?
@@ПсихоТехникаОсвобождения Not yet, as I'm still researching the origins of Zoroastrianism and was in the British Library only yesterday going over some old books. I will get to make it one day :)
An interesting question, and off the top of my head I can't say I am aware of one, but I have never looked. In what way do you think they might be related? And I can make a better assessment from this response. Many thanks.
I am a Norse pagan i have been a believer of the Norse gods ever since I was 5 years old and the old Norse religion has always spoke to me in my heart thats why the the Norse religion is my religion may lord Odin and lord Thor bless and keep you safe friend skal and peace
I have a question about Sacrifice more generally. What are the natural analogies that would help us understand where the idea of sacrifice comes from? I garden, figs grow well where I live. To look at the fig and wasp imagery from Mesopotamia, I can wrap my had around that. But where else in nature do we see these being rooted?
I have produced a video about how to make a world which explains the mythology or perhaps better worded, the cosmogony, of where this is sourced, and around giving balance back to the cosmos.
These are good questions, and ones I can't answer in such a short space here as the answers are complex. I think my only option is to make a video trying to answer some of these questions, although I've just translated a marvelous thesis on this from Norway, and so perhaps I'll have to make two videos... either way, keep watching this channel and one day I will be able to answer these.
Hi, these stories are referencing the sun and the zodiac. Of it n in 5his poem is Orion and the reference of nine days is the time that Orion is visable for each year(the day being one month). We also hear of Odin hanging by his leg(like the hanged man of the tarot). From the top of the north when Orion is first visable he would appear upright , and as the year goes on he appears to turn upside down. There is also a tree in the heavens and with these we might be able to date the creation of the Odin story?? IDK. The spear is possibly one of the planets (probably mars) transiting through the Orion constalation. Thanks, good vids of some stories I'm familiar with but didn't know of their origin, saved a lot of research time. Take care.
Just a thought: could this bear ekkos of the sacrifice of yemo, where Mannus sacrifices "himself" in the form of his twin to gain the power to create the world?
Odin consulting a seeress to learn of impending doom in battle (at Ragnarok) resembles King Saul consulting the Witch of Endor to learn of his impending doom in battle the next day
This leaves me with the impression that like for 1st century Jewish sects and teachings of the period, we don't have enough manuscripts. Hopefully more will be discovered.
@@Crecganford looking forward to it! As a swede with Eddas from 1890 til now, it is not just fascinating to see the different interpretations, but also the different meanings of the written words.
Dude, no offense, BUT... FUCK ALL YOU SAID... PLEASE RELEASE JUST THE FULL STANSAS WITH THAT VOICE FROM THE INTRO... Holy shit, MORGAN FREEMAN READS THE EDDA... FAM YOU GOT A HIT THERE
Norse is older and cames with waves from Siberia/Anatolia. I’ve always seen it as why the Church was easily established in Scandinavia. Much of the two religions overlapp.
I was wondering if the Tree found planted ROOTS UP in a monolithic circle on coast of I belive Ireland might have something to do with Norse or Indo European Mythologies???
If Odin received the knowledge from his mother and the 9 days represents the 9 months of pregnancy I have to wonder if the noose was a symbolic representation of the umbilical cord and the reason he was able to survive without food or water. Would this then mean that Yggdrassil is actually an embodiment of Bestla in this story or more generally the mother of all creation?
The hanging upside down you mean? That is related to how death takes you as Kolyo (the IE goddess of death) tied the noose around the feet to drag you down. As for Odin and Jesus, the answer is a little more complicated than a straight yes or no... I hope you watch the video to understand.
@@Crecganford thank you for the reply. I watched and found the video interesting I do see what you mean about the answer being nuanced.. I love the work you do and hope you realize your knowledge sharing is appreciated.
To me it's more likely that this poem was based on an even older story of Odin mutilates himself to acquire the mystery of the runes at makes sense with the way Shamanic initiations worked with the potential initiate being brought near death and often times dying during the initiation ritual.
I'm not saying I am correct, but from what I think I have learned from Joseph Campbell, Jung & The Corpus Hermeticum, specifically, but not exclusively, is that all communication conveys [a] human experience (even corporate & governments). Myths either facilitate what can be called, Jungian Individuation. Or, like PersoJudeoChristianIslamo monotheism, obstruct it. If I may draw from Rick & Morty (The cartoon), in season 4, Morty is bit by a snake in outer space. He exclaims shock at a snake being in space. To which Rick replies, "Morty, it's space, literally everything is in space." I interpret myth based on the golden rule: everything comes from the human psyche. But, I am just a janitor without a high school education. As such, I find the interpretation of the hanging combined with the the number 9 as being related to the actual human birth experience, deeply ingrained somewhere in each of our own personal psyches, to be brilliant. I have been exposed to this Oden myth & never had a clue. But as I believe every mythological pantheon is actually a map of the human psyche it fits perfectly.
There are many ancient gods from all over the world who went through a sacrificial ritual of some sort, most of which predate Christian texts. The book by Kersey Graves called "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors" is a good place to start. It has some aspects to it that are outdated or deserves constructive criticism of course, but in general it is a good primer. The point I am trying to raise is that it could have been a legitimate idea to the Germans/Norse without the influence of Christianity and it is quite clear that Christianity borrowed this idea from older pagan sources.
Odin's one eye, is symbolic for opening of the third eye, as he drinks of the well of Mimir .An Odin priest or more likely a shaman, seeking union with his god .in a sacrificial ritual "myself to myself". A hint to this , is sitting on the top of Yggdrasil . In egypt Horus gives his eye to Osiris , as a sacrifice . The eye of Horus or the falcon sitting behind the pharaohs head is a representation for the pineal gland or the third eye...this is an old idea that still is present India .In Upanishads they say , it was first discovered by the seers or shamans.Thank you Jon , I really like your videos and insight into this topic, but this time what interessted me what that which you found unlikely 😀
Shamans are practitioners in sibirian tradition as a spiritual leader or guide in a tribe. They commune with spirits and it has nothing to do with other regions nor with gods.
Ah, synchronism between cultures? I do think this is possible due to how we see the wearing of the hammer spread from Denmark up into Middle Scandinavia, and the spread of Christian influence at the same time.
Could Odin have not hanged himself by the neck, but by the feet? Mabe so, and the sacrifice of his eye could be due to high blood pressure from hanging upside down for nine days? Just thought about it.
There are different ways of looking at it, but one of the simplest views is that if the poem is about Odin the person, and he is sacrificing to Odin the god, then this makes sense (as much as mythology and religion can).
Old norse poet - "Let us preempt and subvert the spread of Christianity with our own death and resurrection myth - put it in!" Snorri Sturluson- "Let us not tempt fellow Christians with a cooler death and resurrection myth - leave it out!"
Maybe a remnant of the past when the farming matriarchal societies were being taken over by the patriarchal. If one interprets the Adam and Eve story as the story of the farmers taking over society, where the tree of knowledge represents farming knowledge and Eve is the one who gets the knowledge first and then gives it to Adam, but at a cost. The cost is he must change from a free man who lives a free life in a paradise of hunting and adventure to basically a farming slave ruled by the matriarchs. He must also, in order to prevent the hereditary transfer of the kingship, which is for protecting the towns and farms, sacrifice his eldest son. Thus we have he sacrifice of the SON/Sun. Which we know is a real thing in ancient Canaan after finding their remains under houses in villages. But then the son was resurrected. Human sacrifice of the eldest son is in the story of Abraham where God demands it and then suddenly changes his mind, probably marking the end of human sacrifice in that region. Heracles stops human sacrifice in the areas he conquered, which may be a result of the indo-european invasion of the herders taking over the matriarchal farmers and re-establishing the patriarchal hereditary kingships. Goes back to the Greek descriptions of the ages of man, the gold, or the great heroes, the silver, when women ruled men, and then on to the bronze and the age of the Greek heroes we know. Jesus and Odin maybe just the cultural adjustments of the same myth, when human sacrifice and the patriarchal system was ressurrected.
There are some very interesting points in there, and I'm not sure how much you understand about the Old Norse mythology, but you touch on some little known understanding. I will answer some of these questions in another video I am making soon. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Another issue I have with the Christian cognate hypothesis is that, as an origin story for the runes, it would have had to have dated to many hundreds of years after the development of the elder futhark. Some may have no problem with this but, given how magical writing was regarded to any culture that received it, I find it hard to believe the Germanics wouldn’t have already had their own myth that wouldn’t have been dislodged so easily by a new contender. I’m not certain, of course. But this seems to way against the Christian parallels.
When you say magic what do you actually mean. I would love to know your opinion on how magic fit into their world view and mythology. What powers they thought the runes held or symbolised.
@Crecganford ... you might find interesting to consider... (read below if you are intrigued, cause it's going to be too long for a short intro comment like this).
... that there is a connection between both stories that is beyond thinking one is a transfiguration of the other, but more like, both represent the same knowledge encrypted in a different way, and presented in a way according to each culture? The story of Christ, is often misconstrued and shared with abundant contradictions only to hide there is a strong esoteric element attached to it. There is the christ as a figure of spiritual achievement, and there is a Christ, which became well known. But the Christ is not just something that happened once nor is owned by one Jesus that later on became Jesus Christ, but "the christ" is related to a developed potential, the verb becoming a mind that reaches its climax (an image that in other cultures is sometimes represented as the serpent, Kundalini ascending through the spine to the top intellectual center, or the Cobra representing the Nature from where everything comes from connected to the sun, which represents the rise of that potential). Those myths, stories, narrations or historical records (doesn't matter which) talk about the mind waking, coming to life, from the primordial abyss. That abyss, the never-ending chaos that is the source of everything that could be, is the fertile field for an individuated mind to spring. The ascension of the mind from the dark depths in which every dragon and terror exists to enlightened heights, is the contact between two natures. In men, that represents that the earthly mind, plagued with material thoughts where monsters crawl and the personality is divided into multiple aspects (that even fight one another sometimes) finally ascending to a clarity in which the personalities disappear and the self becomes integrated. All that, is mainly achieved by the power of the word. Words are paths to that which is unknown, and they affect the mind making it grow. The true understanding of words, the better comprehension of those symbols and parables, leads the mind from oblivion to a lasting memory that trascends time. That is the gift. Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, could be considered from that point of view in a completely different manner. The word "Yggdrasil", whether "Yggr" means Odin himself or "terror", could be the vehicle of Odin, or the vehicle of awe in the case of terror. That has to be contemplated from the perspective that "Odin" comes from a root that talks about mental excitation, inspiration or divine aspects, a spiritual rise and when we talk about "horse", we actually talk about something that "runs", "flows", or "carries" like a car also would. Hence why it could have an implication as "vehicle of the mental arousal". And that takes things to the image itself, the tree, being a representation of the inner world that has to rise and die, just like sanctification, sacrifice, requires for a mind to achieve it's complete journey towards elevation. Specially if we think of the tree, specially the ash tree, as a representation of man. Then, inside each man gods, monsters and all sorts of duality systems, creatures and battles are happening till his own personality is completely destroyed (a representation of the ego's death) and it can be born again from that after his own Ragnarok. The "christ" is that which is ointed , and being rubbed with oil means being touched by the divine. It's a representation of protection, but also of sun light as intellectual clarity in the climax of the superior intellectual center of the body (or at least where some beliefs locate such, which others simply put in the place of the pineal gland). So the christ is the mind being born, the "Nativitas" (birth), the "Christmas" of the self, which ascends through the tree from the bottom where serpents are and where from it's roots he drinks from the waters of memory to gain knowledge (consider memory and the similarity with "mimir" and many other languages in which "מאמר" -Ma’amár or memra-, memoria, dimma, the root *men- , all reflect the same aspects of figures such as Mnemosyne and the muses, all connected with the capacities of the mind. And not only that, but there is always a connection with water as the source of that mind springing out to life. One of the clearest examples is Noah finally finding land after the flood, representing the mind that was able to rise from the depths of that endless abyss in which all the rest perished, and the first sign of that land is an olive branch meaning the well being and peace between man and God). Odin sacrifices himself to himself, and sacrifice is making something sacred, meaning to "sanctify" it, to make it worthy of spiritual quality, elevate, given to God, towards God. In his Own sacrifice, the death of all he is at that moment gives birth to the Odin he becomes when he finds the true power of the word, through which he is able to interact with the forces the runes represent (same as being dexterous with words and being able to give structure to more complex thoughts and create through them, bridged from one mind to another). Anyway... I know I said a lot and maybe it wasn't that much, I hope it starts a thought in you that made it worth reading all this in any case. In sum, besides considering texts being corrupted, there is a knowledge crossing through time in different shapes and languages, that always leads to the rise of the mind from the depths of the abyss in which the cycle never ends, and that only the mind which rises from that depth is able to reach heaven, to pull itself out of the entropy of the serpent that bites its own tail, and make a straight line that cuts the vicious circle. The actual christ of christianity is aiming to that, same as Jesus teachings are aimed to that (lets not forget the symbolisms around a man who walks over water, his followers being called or associated with "fish", his disciples being known as "fishermen", and him turning water into wine -water being the primordial element from which the mind is born and wine being the fruit of the earth). And I'll stop here to avoid extending myself even further. I hope, again, it was worth the reading in some way. Thank you for your video. I really appreciate someone takes the time to dedicate it to such matters, and do it so carefully. The love you put into it is clearly present in that.
Thank you for taking the time to comment so much, I do have to disagree though, especially because much of which people read about Odin was written by Christians; Odin is often more misunderstood than Christ in my opinion.
@@Crecganford I insist, thank you. For what you share and even for replying so cordially. But I could only agree with that about Odin being often more misunderstood than Christ. My point was that, from the get go, christianity is not understood even by the most devoted christians. If they knew what they're doing they would realize they tend to be more like unwillingly satanists by trying to be good christians. If that happens with the figure of Christ... Odin has no chance to be viewed in a fairly comprehensive way. Ecclesiastic authors are not always the best exponents of true and original christianity, so even granting them good intentions, they tend to pervert everything they touch. Like Odin. Even Christ. I'll extend myself in the next comment, to try and underline the point to which I'm guiding the focus. I will try to keep it as brief as possible, but stil I know I wil fail:
@@Crecganford This follows my previous comment: the main point I'm trying to make, has to do with the perspective of a deeper knowledge encrypted in both stories. Which can be taken by separating key elements from each. There is a big esoteric proportion in all that which is usually disguised according to each culture or not disguised sometimes but simply painted with the colors they are more familiar with. And these cosmologies approached from a point of view that involves that, are better understood and make more sense entirely. Each on their own and also combined showing a lot of points in common. For example the figure of Christ is of a dual nature, since he is in contact with the soil, the earthly, and at the same time comes from a divine nature. Both are finally unified when Jesus is baptized in water (the baptism itself is a representation of the conscious, luminous, mind emerging from the dark waters of the subconscious. He will, later on, willingly accept his sacrifice fulfilling his journey and ascending to the kingdom of heaven. Odin is a God in form of a wanderer descending to a land in which he will be reborn after his sacrifice and interaction with water. Despite the differences, in both cases the elements have pillars in common with an impressive symbolic weight. And that weight points to ancient knowledge practically lost. Odin doesn't lose an eye as much as he gives one eye to the well. The water, symbol of the depths of the mind, is now a realm in which he has one eye, representing that duality of a figure that is on the shore between two worlds, or two ways to see. He can see the conscious side, the perceptive reality and as well the subconscious side, the imperceptible reality. All that taken to any man and from a serious esoteric look, would be equal to him facing his own unknown depths, descending to the lowest parts of himself to face his obstacles in order to achieve wisdom. Which will only come to him when he is able to sacrifice his personality, what he built himself upon in order to set his spirit actually free from those features that hold back its strength and obstacle the spirit's connection to all knowledge. When his spirit, his essence is in contact with his soul (considering the spirit as the true incorruptible essence of any being and the soul as the storage of knowledge obtained through experiences marked in memory). The will, which is a masculine principle, descends to be in touch with his soul, his memory, through sacrifice, in order to be complete. Which means his death, since he is detached from his previous personality, and a new man , a new conscious, is born from that. That is the dual principle, integrated in one perfect matrimony between soul and spirit, subconscious and conscious, giving birth to a complete mind, that can see beyond what's visible. I'm not trying to correct anything, since I actually can tell how carefully you get on board of it. My aim, is to add an esoteric (I insist, a serious esoteric) perspective to add better definition to the big picture. Considering the Hávamál: He knows that he hangs from that windy tree, spear wounded. The windy tree paints the image of something yet not that firm, nor that solid that is taking shape, and wind is it's primordial feature. Wind could be associated with the primordial chaos from where things spring out, a confusing and unstable base, but more probably, in this case, symbolizes the "wind" that is insufflated in everything that lives, the spiritual essence, the high creator that moves across and above the water. The spear head is a triangle, a wedge, which has association with a higher intelligence that shapes what’s below, with the higher mind creating through the impressions left by its presence. By that spear he is marked. Nine full nights, nine being the number an end and new beginning, a transposition to a new plane. It's the idea of a new birth after death. It’s about transmutation, the end of a cycle, the culmination of a ring. In association with other myths that are about the birth of a mind or conscience, nine are the muses which represent mental capacities for development and knowledge. They’re daughters of the goddess of memory, of remembrance. The word “muse” itself refers to “mind”, and again there is a really outstanding similarity with “Mímir” and “Memoir”, “Memra”, and many other words referring to that same concept. Later on actually mentions having nine mighty songs from Mimir, which has a striking resemblance to nine muses from Memory (Mnemosyne), specially since “muses” and “music” have the same meaning, and singing is what the muses do as well. Uttering incantations through voice or instruments. Nights, because night is the lunar tide, the moment of the subconscious, the time in which things are not visible, were truth is postponed and only intuition allows to “see”. “To Odin, Myself to Myself”, to mental inspiration, himself as seed from a creator to himself as individual. That tree that rose from roots no man ever knows, it’s the mind, the conscience that extends its branches in each, though nobody consciously knows where that comes from, unless they see it through intuition, a part of knowledge that is not granted by reasoning nor learning through direct perception. All the poem can be read through that cypher and understood coherently. Usually, most myths have this underlying message, from norse mythology, to greek, and christian belief as well. There are differences, but it seems there is a rite that is mostly respected by sources here and there, that even when someone corrupts the text, it seems that the words can't be completely erased nor twisted. It's more about confusing the trail so it gets more confusing and difficult to follow it.
the difference is the Jesus sacrifices himself to himself for humanity and free us from Sin, Odin sacrifices himself to himself for mystic knowledge and the power of Language (the runes, a symbolic key). Jesus doesn't need to grasp for the runes because he himself is The Word. I have no difficulty accepting different origins and concepts behind Odin's legend and Jesus's crucifixion, as you correctly say Odin's sounds more like an initiation, possibly shamanic.
From what I have read the Christianizing seemed to be sprinkled around, not well thought out and orchestrated to look pagan. I and someone who asked me, what is the true meaning of the number nine globally. I don't see off hand it in my notes, but there was something about (IIRC) the nine day week in History & Chronology of the Myth-Making Age. The best guess would be the time of human gestation.
I’m watching a bit late, but any videos using your expertise on ancient Norse texts would be great. I’m sad to say I’m quite ignorant of true Norse tradition being American therefore having so much cultural stereotyping to not have any confidence in any lingering information in my brain.
I have spent a couple of months translating some excellent thesis on this, and will present some views soon, which are interesting and a whole new look at these. I hope you watch when it comes out.
Sorry but i just dont understand the need to compare Odin and Jesus. Jesus is a fictional character that never lived and Odin has been alive since the biginning of the world or even earlier
Odin is theoretically the equivalent of Manu, the first primordial being… but this is to answer many Abrahamic scholars who ask me this question when they interview me.
Maybe Odin was the first to do this ritual which made him the All father, then later Jesus also preformed the ritual to become his own version of an All father.
I have produced a video discussing the All Father, and what I think it really meant. At the end of the day, myths evolve and change, and this is what is happening here.
The story of Jesus in its modern form wasn't really written until much later (than when the story takes place). I always assumed they placed the Norse and Greek myths over Judaism to get to Christianity, using Jesus as a central figure to place certain myths around. I also see some of Baldur's story in Jesus' story. Also how there isnt really an underworld in judaism, from what i understand, and the Christian hell seems to be a combination of Helheim and Tartarus. Would that have even been possible?
I think you’re very correct. The more foundational elements of the Christ myth are from Greco-Roman influence (with some Zoroastrianism here and there) and then Judaism as the coating on top. This includes all the “prophecy fulfillment”, which are mostly copy-pasting the Old Testament or inserting things to be fulfillments of random prophecy. Basically, you have an Indo-European myth inside a shell of Judaic connections.
I vaguely recall from Frazer's ''The Golden Bough'' of a pre-Christian, Northern European sacrificial fertility rite involving nailing or otherwise affixing a king or god substitute to an evergreen tree as part of a fertility rite. In most of these early rites, I believe, that it was necessary for the healthy sacrifice to be ''willing'', or at least complaisant, possibly drugged into compliance? Another aspect that springs to mind is the possibility of a shamanistic practice of auto-erotic asphyxiation, leading to an out-of-body experience or altered consciousness.
I was learnt from other experts on Odin that Jesus was a copy of Odin in the sacrifice. I don’t think Jesus was a sacrifice I think Romans killed because at that moment they were killing in the cross a lot of people in order to create control and fear among between the people. God is love he don’t want these killings and wars and sacrifices. Roman Catholics do this they blamed to the Jews the death of Jesus they say were the Jews who killed him and God sacrificed his own son bu actually was the Roman who killed Jesus. This is not a sacrifice this is a murder.
You have good knowledge but you don't understand the deeper meanings of Christianity to see the correlations... like giving himself to himself... in Christianity we are God's little g... psalms 82:6 he gives himself to himself because he died for our sins... which is really himself...matthew 25:40... see for you truly to comprehend whether Odin was jesus or not you have to have a indebt of Christianity....somewhat of a mystic depth because it goes deeper then that... even 9 in Christianity means completeness or it is finished... you always have to have a indebt of hebrew it's way way deeper then your comprehending... but you still did a Good job... with what you where able to do
@@joshuadavis2099 This is an academic channel, and you are now mistranslating and relying on confirmation bias. I will leave you to your theories, but I will continue to spread the truth.
@@Crecganford lol typical answer once you school someone... I bet you caint refute none of the correlation I just made... But it's all good bro... If you have to wait for the main stream media or some school to approve the truth for you to believe you'll never discover the truth....
After aske embla were created the gods raised temples and worship began after Odin made the first blot sacrifice if himself thus he sanctified the nine worlds and drew all heros to himself then got a drink as in the sumble then gained wisdom and valhall began.. thus we make blot have a sumble and then feast with the gods as in Valhall.. Odin did what jesus claimed to long before jesus even existed. Jesus is the copy. The fall of Odin is necassary to redeem all after ragnarok.
In my opinion, it seems like the verses are certainly Old Norse in origin but do bear some Christian influence..... If you are at all familiar with the Old Saxon Heliand, you will see how there are many ancient Germanic retellings of stories of Jesus and his disciples to make them more palatable, for lack of a better term, to the recently-converted Saxons..... To me, these verses of Odin's sacrifice to himself seems very much like that, like it was an old story that developed earlier during the Viking Age, roughly c. 750 - 1050 CE, and it was finally written down in Old Icelandic in the 13th century, by literate Christian Icelandic scribes, who were writing in Latin script and who were very familiar with the Old Norse "pagan" traditions but were their selves Christians, and they were writing these sagas and all this poetry and prose in order to preserve as much of the old stories and tales and traditions as they could...... For me personally, there is just too much that is so close to the story of Christ's crucifixion for it to have no Christian influence whatsoever..... However, I feel that it is not actually Christian in nature, but perhaps an Old Norse "pagan" answer to the gospel story, perhaps from a time when Old Norse pagans were still holding out and competing with Christianity for influence and prestige, possibly during the early 11th century?? But certainly by the time that the sagas and eddas were written down in Old Icelandic, in Latin script, during the 13th century, the whole of Scandinavia had been Christianized, as well as Iceland, but I feel that there was perhaps a stronger connection to and a deeper respect for the old ways in Medieval Iceland, and that is why the scribes there, although Christian by the 13th century, worked to compile so many sagas and tales and poetry that hearkened back to the Old Norse pagan world of the Viking Age.....
Would you like a deeper dive into the meaning and translation of the Havamal, or another poem like the Voluspa?
yes please
@@cecilrhodes1057 Which poem interests you the most? The Havamal or Voluspa?
@@Crecganford I would like the havamal, also have you read the kalevala and how would you compare vainamoinen to odin?
I feel that a deeper dive into translation would be too much for me, being a layman and not having enough knowledge to appreciate the nuances. I would still watch it of course for the little information I could get from it... bur don´t let my comment discourage you from doing it. I appreciate your effort and passion doing these vidsl. Thank you very much for this garden of knowledge you keep watering and tending. All the best for you
@@fernandosanz4422 Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand that. I will make an effort to make it as easy to understand as I can if I do :)
I appreciate your logical and unbiased academic approach to questions like this. A lot of other people seem to let their religious beliefs influence their opinion on these topics, this is a very refreshing take! Thank you Sir.
Thank you, I do my best to keep my answers academic :)
@@Crecganford Morgan Freeganford ,-)
Poetic Edda's always been my absolute favorite book and Hávamál is my favorite poem in it, I've read it so many times and yet it's so deep and there's so much to learn every time. It's so fascinating. Thank you for the analysis and the references in the description!!
And thank you for watching.
I love your videos! I will always enjoy a deeper dive. Thank you always for sharing your work with us
I love that deep dive and translation. Thanks for your great work
Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.
Hey Jon,
Very interessting video. The hanging of Odin had indeed an esoteric load, and it has parallels with other cultures. The Hanged God was also know in the classical world, and this was also associated with initiation. Orpheos-Bakkikos, was a hanged God, and in wich Orpheus became Bachcus. The god of initiation and extacy. The symbol is older then christainity and maybe christians took it over from pagans... ? Early christians had the fish as symbol, not the cross. Besides Europe, we find that hanging in the wolrd tree is common in Siberian shamanism, where the shaman should also remain nine nights in the world tree before he starts his magic flight. That world tree had an eagle on the top and a monster at his roots, just like Yggdrasil. There is no mentioning of Odin having a magic flight after hanging on the world tree. But we have the myth of his visit with Gunnlod, he enters like a snake (symbol of regeneration, leaving the old skin behind), and after 3 nights (and each night drinking of the mead), he steels the mead in the shape of an eagle (flying to the heavens/gods). This is like the shamanic magic fligth. And there is a parallel with christianity, because after 3 days in his grave, Jesus resurrected. Maybe there is a connection with the initiation as, remaining 3 nights in the underwolrd/grave/cave (home of the dragon/snake), and hanging on the world tree, extacy (wine, mead, mushrooms), and the magic flight (the eagle). There is a lott more esoteric symbolism in this then at first sight. greetings, Benny
Hi Benny, yes there is so much more to this than I've mentioned here. I do touch on initiation, but even then we're assuming the translation and context is correct, and there are significant doubts about that and I will go into the detail more in the future. Thanks for taking the time to comment :)
I was wondering about this too - could it be that both Odin and Jesus' 'sacrifice' are connecting to an earlier tradition rather than the former the latter ?
@@julesgosnell9791 I personally think it's unlikely at a low level of analysis, but I'm sure an argument could be made at a high level that all forms of sacrifice are fundamentally for the same reason, they are sacrifices after all.
"Nor do I know how tenaciously the reader is going to cling to the idea, advertised by Dr. Freud, that all higher thought, except psychoanalysis, is a function of infantile anxiety."
[The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology, Joseph Campbell, 1991, Part 3: Ch. 5- "Shamanism"]
Most enjoyable OJ. I'd like to know more about the translation and interprestion of old Norse poetry. Look forward to that!
Fantastic work, what a wonderful resource of knowledge you have.
Thank you for watching, and for your comments, they are all appreciated.
Odin as a southern gentleman throws me. I never pictured the val father sounding like Doc Holiday. Thank you for sharing your insights.
That's the last time I book Morgan Freeman to do narration :(
That one was short but sweet.
What beliefs influence other beliefs as time passes and times change have always been of great interest to me. It is fascinating to look at who takes credit for what, and who reviles what, when it comes to myth and folklore.
Though this is a common quality of humankind, I have always been especially keen on hunting down and sussing out patterns. I think that's why I like this field of study, and specifically this channel. Jon tells us what is said, what the scholarly consensus is, how he sees it and why.
Thank you, your kind words are appreciated
Your videos are amazing. Keep up the excellent work.
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to leave a comment.
Another excellent well thought out video Jon.many thanks.
Thanks Hengist
Thanks brother , from southern Maryland. Skal!
And thank you for watching
I’ll grab a cup of coffee, thank you ☕️🙏🏻
Very interesting. Thanks. I'd like to hear more.👍
Thank you for watching
Av watched a few of these now, and av waved you away each time yer invited me for a brew, but am enjoying mesen so al take yer up onnit on this video
Brilliant video lad. I was extremely attentive as your lecture progressed. Thank you for a cracking good job!
Thank you for watching
Just discovered your work and loving your videos so far, can't wait to catch up on all of them!
Can I ask where you got your shirt?
Hi Jessie, thanks for your kind words. The T-Shirt is one I designed, available here: crecganford.creator-spring.com/listing/50-names-of-odin
@@Crecganford thanks so much! Awesome design
I hope you're still considering an interview/discussion with Biblical scholar Ben Stanhope. I recall him admiring the Norse myths and mentioning how he sees similarities in Odin sacrificing himself to get the runes for himself and humanity or Tyr offering his hand to bind Fenrir (these his claim).
It would be interesting to see you two guys chat about creation-stories, cosmology or combat-myths. He has a lot of insight in the Bible and Ancient Near East, while you have with Indo-European stuff, and where these cultural worldviews resemble and differ from each other.
I would love to hear your translations and a deeper dive into these poems and texts!
I working on it, and have finished the first draft of translations. Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
What you did not mention is that this same scene is depicted on the tomb lid of Lord Pakal in The House of the Nine Sharpened Spears. Here he hangs from the windy tree, or tree of the four winds, and "falls back", just as Odin does.
I will talk about analogues to Odin’s story one day, as it helps us understand who he really was.
What jumps to mind for me is Odin has referred himself (I forget which story) as the High, the Higher, and the Highest, which to me sounds like Odin the man, Odin the spirit, and Odin the god. Odin sacrificed himself as Odin the man to Odin the god, which allowed Odin the spirit to enter the underworld to gain knowledge, as many heroes and gods in many mythos have done.
Well, strictly speaking he didn’t. You’re quoting Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Prose Edda where that comes from, and he very much added a Christian bias to the story. And so it is likely that this has happened here making us think Odin is comparing himself to the trinity etc
It's important to understand that what a word is and what we think it represents is not always the same.
Doubly so in a language written over 700 years ago, and which itself was written in an abbreviated and unformatted form, and which itself was a scribed and subject to human error.
Now, I am totally alone on this, but if there was a slim possibility that I might be close, I think a great example is the Buddhist symbol of The 1000 Petal Lotus that is the seat/throne of each Buddha in the sutras (origin of suture, meaning [woven] threads). I wanna say I "discovered", but have to settle for 'made up' the idea that the image is literally a reference to the physical brain. The Buddha likewise, though a historic figure, is simultaneously a symbol of... 'A frame of mind'. The symbol of the Buddha on the lotus is the reality of the relationship between the brain & [a type of] behavior. The Buddha raises the [1000 petal) lotus[es] out of the 'sea' (water=The [collective] unconscious), raises it into 'the air' (air/winds are thought operations; i.e. the mind we each "hear") & then reveals the truth. But the imagery IS the message.... To me. Like, in the Bible, I believe the prime figure of evil is a symbol for a fully matured, initiated (if I may), shamanistically developed, Self; i.e. a healthy, uninjured, balanced Psyche. And "God" is literally a symbol for "personal opinion", which can be further distilled to an actual psychic injury, as real as a physical amputation. But, I am just a janitor.... & a troll.
I’m very interested in hearing more about the connection between hanging gods and shamanic practices. Love having a cup of tea and listening to your videos.
Thank you! You can never have too much tea :)
"They [The Greeks] also looked upon the Oak as having produced the first men, & Oak trees were called first mothers. The Romans also shared this belief. And Juvenal, in his Sixth Satire, speaks of mankind as born of the opening Oak which, motherlike, fed man with her own acorns; while Ovid says that man's first food was acorns dropping from the tree of Jove."
[The Forest: In Folklore & Mythology, Alexander Porteous, 1928/2002, p. 157]
"The most primitive & simple of religious beliefs among both northern & southern races connected the object with the divinity, & when the Ancients declared the Oak sacred to Zeus, they identified the tree with the god-in other words, the tree itself was the god, & in very primitive times was worshipped as such. This hypothesis is still further elaborated by the fact that the Oak is the tree most often struck by lightning, & Zeus, being the God of Thunder, or the Thunder itself, dwelt in, or rather had his being in, an Oak tree. Prof. Harris puts it thus: "The Thunder-god goes back to the Thunder-man, or into the Thunder-bird or Thunder-tree; Zeus takes the stately form in vegetable life of the Oak-tree, or if he must be flesh & blood, he comes back as a Red-headed Woodpecker. " The parasites of the Oak such as Mistletoe & Ivy, would evidently partake of the attributes of the tree & would thus be the thunder also. In the case of the Ivy a new & subordinate Thunder God would become evolved under the name of Dionysos, & Prof. Harris says: "Dionysos is the ivy; in the first instance he is ivy, nothing more or less" ; & again; "The tree is the thunder & makes all its parasites & its denizens thunder also.""
[The Forest: In Folklore & Mythology, Alexander Porteous, 1928/2002, p. 160-61]
I've just found your channel and this is very interesting!
Perhaps we all descend as descendents into this material matter with dimensional awareness? 🤔.
I think I need another cup of tea before reading that again! Thank you for watching.
Hello Mr. White! It’s me again.
I hope this shows how strongly my previously stated POV seems worthy of consideration.
-I think that this segment of the Hávamá l referrs to the author’s personal story about his Koryos rite of passage ritual.
-It was an encrypted way to pass details about their Koryos ritual to other like minded followers.
-It seems that the writer believed that Odin was his clan’s ritual leader.
-”Given to Odin, myself to myself” The writer is sacrificing his boyhood for the clan, which he will forever be a part of.
-Maybe when mentioning the tree, it was a symbol of writer’s clan tree, just as we use family trees today.
-The tree has roots that evidentially predated anyone’s knowledge. The Neanderthals went extinct like 35kya, right? Yeah, the wolf ritual’s origin story had probably long been forgotten by the time this was written.
-The writer seems to be referring to himself as the tree’s fruit as it hangs from tree branches, until it’s fully mature. After the ritual, the writer will find his place on earth. Probably plant his own seeds, become a berserker, or maybe even ritual leader himself somewhere.
-Being a windswept tree indicates that the writer (the fruit) will be fully exposed to challenging elements, such as wind.
-The ritual probably lasted for 9 months to correlate with human gestation cycles symbolizing rebirth.
-”Was given no food nor drink” to a person who has studied the Koryos, this is too obvious to describe.
- Some runes were given by the clan’s cult leader and the elders, but more runes would also be learned first hand, during the ritual’s 9 months of wolf like lawlessness. During the raids, there was probably a lot of “shreiking and screaming”. All the while he took mental notes regarding his various successful strategies. He would traditionally pass these runes down to later initiates.
-The spear is THE only traditional Koryos ritual weapon so I’m not surprised to hear about the writer being marked by one. I wonder if he believed that he was branded by the famous Gungnir spear. Because dying in battle was glorious to them, maybe that was the spear mark being referred to.. It could go either way, really. Most probably, the author couldn’t find any better way of mentioning the spear. He would’ve had to do it very carefully. This detail could’ve been the most easily noticed by Christians.
I hear your skepticism about Christian influences but this one doesn’t seem to be as badly corrupted as many others histories that I’ve studied. Christians and other monarchs, are most likely the reason why the poem was written so cryptically. The Koryos was absolutely meant to be kept a secret for reasons which we can discuss later.
Again, this is a continuation of my original hypothesis. They won’t keep appearing in your comments if they’re not appreciated.
Would you like to discuss Alexander the Great’s Lion helmet also?
Google my name. There’s only one Gringo Curt, but I live in paradise just so you know that you’re contacting the correct person.
Cheers!
There is so much written about these stanzas, and it is always interesting to consider well written pieces about it
I appreciate good writing but not as much as I appreciate finding details that paint a more logical picture than history movies are presently showing the public. Originally, I just wanted to put everything sapien onto a timeline. Then I wanted it to make sense, because no one could. This seemed rather hopeless, until I found the Koryos. Now finally, I think that my timeline sensibly and logically leads a seamless line into how world corruption evolved into what we experience even now. I think that this subject is much bigger than you are realizing.
It's much more than just understanding a few Viking vs. Christian tales.
When Europe became full of Koryos Cultists, the clan leaders would have needed to become political otherwise they would've just kept knocking each other's legs out from underneath themselves. The Koryos is an expansion focused cult ritual. When there were Koryos from sea to sea, the expansion part could no longer be a thing.
You are a great teacher. hopefully you're the kind that's motivated to keep learning. We don't grow if we lose motivation. This idea of mine, is the big kind. It runs into other subjects. In other words, it could be a really good networking tool, from your viewpoint. RUclips likes that, right?
It's all around your wheelhouse and luckily it's beyond it too. How much you want to grow is up to you.
Hit me up... Costs you nothing.
I would love to see those tattoos ^__^
What, mine? Perhaps I'll throw them up on my Instagram soon...
good video! This would be related to the sacrifices to the god Esus prior to Christianity, possibly related to the Indo-European worldview of cyclical death and rebirth
Hello, John!
Thanks for the new video!
Are there stories about the hanging of a deity or hero in other Indo-European cultures? Do Indians or Iranians have such stories?
To mind there is Attis and Osiris, and you could probably throw Adonis in there and maybe Isis, depending on the versions of the myth, as deities who were hanged? Heroes are more plentiful, and perhaps I will make a video about these as there is too much to write here :)
@@Crecganford Many thanks! It is very interesting! May I ask you, when you have the opportunity, to make a video about Zarathustra? Why was the concept of "suryas" and "asuras" opposite among Iranians and Indians? Is there an analogue of the Soma or Haoma drink among European "relatives"?
understand that it is impossible to answer briefly, so - sometime in the future..
@@ПсихоТехникаОсвобождения Not yet, as I'm still researching the origins of Zoroastrianism and was in the British Library only yesterday going over some old books. I will get to make it one day :)
@@Crecganford Oh, this will be very interesting! I'll be waiting impatiently!
Is there a connection, in your opinion, between the widespread "cult of the hanging god" and the american indians sacred sun dance? Thank you
An interesting question, and off the top of my head I can't say I am aware of one, but I have never looked. In what way do you think they might be related? And I can make a better assessment from this response. Many thanks.
just a question.. is the
'spirit " of the old was alive ? thANK YOU.kraig jillson
Yes! More about translations and trying to figure out what the Vikings probably really believed 👍
I am a Norse pagan i have been a believer of the Norse gods ever since I was 5 years old and the old Norse religion has always spoke to me in my heart thats why the the Norse religion is my religion may lord Odin and lord Thor bless and keep you safe friend skal and peace
I have a question about Sacrifice more generally. What are the natural analogies that would help us understand where the idea of sacrifice comes from? I garden, figs grow well where I live. To look at the fig and wasp imagery from Mesopotamia, I can wrap my had around that. But where else in nature do we see these being rooted?
I have produced a video about how to make a world which explains the mythology or perhaps better worded, the cosmogony, of where this is sourced, and around giving balance back to the cosmos.
@@Crecganford Thank you, I will look again with that in mind. I appreciate you.
What is the relation/ similarity with the ritual in Voluspa? And where and how does Bestla come in to this? I'm really confused :/
These are good questions, and ones I can't answer in such a short space here as the answers are complex. I think my only option is to make a video trying to answer some of these questions, although I've just translated a marvelous thesis on this from Norway, and so perhaps I'll have to make two videos... either way, keep watching this channel and one day I will be able to answer these.
Hi, these stories are referencing the sun and the zodiac. Of it n in 5his poem is Orion and the reference of nine days is the time that Orion is visable for each year(the day being one month). We also hear of Odin hanging by his leg(like the hanged man of the tarot). From the top of the north when Orion is first visable he would appear upright , and as the year goes on he appears to turn upside down. There is also a tree in the heavens and with these we might be able to date the creation of the Odin story?? IDK. The spear is possibly one of the planets (probably mars) transiting through the Orion constalation. Thanks, good vids of some stories I'm familiar with but didn't know of their origin, saved a lot of research time. Take care.
Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment, it is appreciated.
I need a Morgan Freeman narrating the full Hávamál audio book.
I'm negotiating this :)
@String Vest Are you talking of the Star Trek synopsis?
If you could do one on the pre nordic Thygg would be appreciated
Just a thought: could this bear ekkos of the sacrifice of yemo, where Mannus sacrifices "himself" in the form of his twin to gain the power to create the world?
Odin consulting a seeress to learn of impending doom in battle (at Ragnarok) resembles King Saul consulting the Witch of Endor to learn of his impending doom in battle the next day
Yes, there are similarities.
This leaves me with the impression that like for 1st century Jewish sects and teachings of the period, we don't have enough manuscripts. Hopefully more will be discovered.
I hope so too, for all cultures and religions. There is just so much we don't know.
Yes please, do the translations! It is awesome to get an english perspective.
Thank you for watching, and I am working on it, it's a big project, but I hope to have it finished in a few months.
@@Crecganford looking forward to it! As a swede with Eddas from 1890 til now, it is not just fascinating to see the different interpretations, but also the different meanings of the written words.
I was always under the impression that Baldar was a possible addition (more likely an adaptation) as a representative Jesus figure in Snori’s work.
Then you should watch my video on Baldr which explains exactly who he is here; ruclips.net/video/WDdMvIDTqBg/видео.html
Dude, no offense, BUT... FUCK ALL YOU SAID... PLEASE RELEASE JUST THE FULL STANSAS WITH THAT VOICE FROM THE INTRO... Holy shit, MORGAN FREEMAN READS THE EDDA... FAM YOU GOT A HIT THERE
Norse is older and cames with waves from Siberia/Anatolia. I’ve always seen it as why the Church was easily established in Scandinavia. Much of the two religions overlapp.
yes we want more :)
Thank you for watching.
I was wondering if the Tree found planted ROOTS UP in a monolithic circle on coast of I belive Ireland might have something to do with Norse or Indo European Mythologies???
I'm not familiar with that symbolism; I will keep an eye out for it though. Thank you for watching and for taking the time to comment.
If Odin received the knowledge from his mother and the 9 days represents the 9 months of pregnancy I have to wonder if the noose was a symbolic representation of the umbilical cord and the reason he was able to survive without food or water. Would this then mean that Yggdrassil is actually an embodiment of Bestla in this story or more generally the mother of all creation?
A lot of the Norse gods have injuries. Odin lacks an eye, Tyr has lost a hand, Thor has a flint shard in his head... power demands a price.
They do!
I wonder if this is where the hanged man tarot card came from. I doubt Jesus had any influence Odin. Odin did anything to increase his knowledge.
The hanging upside down you mean? That is related to how death takes you as Kolyo (the IE goddess of death) tied the noose around the feet to drag you down. As for Odin and Jesus, the answer is a little more complicated than a straight yes or no... I hope you watch the video to understand.
@@Crecganford thank you for the reply. I watched and found the video interesting I do see what you mean about the answer being nuanced.. I love the work you do and hope you realize your knowledge sharing is appreciated.
They are both different perspectives of the same experience, although the stories have been altered.
To me it's more likely that this poem was based on an even older story of Odin mutilates himself to acquire the mystery of the runes at makes sense with the way Shamanic initiations worked with the potential initiate being brought near death and often times dying during the initiation ritual.
I'm not saying I am correct, but from what I think I have learned from Joseph Campbell, Jung & The Corpus Hermeticum, specifically, but not exclusively, is that all communication conveys [a] human experience (even corporate & governments). Myths either facilitate what can be called, Jungian Individuation. Or, like PersoJudeoChristianIslamo monotheism, obstruct it. If I may draw from Rick & Morty (The cartoon), in season 4, Morty is bit by a snake in outer space. He exclaims shock at a snake being in space. To which Rick replies, "Morty, it's space, literally everything is in space." I interpret myth based on the golden rule: everything comes from the human psyche. But, I am just a janitor without a high school education.
As such, I find the interpretation of the hanging combined with the the number 9 as being related to the actual human birth experience, deeply ingrained somewhere in each of our own personal psyches, to be brilliant. I have been exposed to this Oden myth & never had a clue. But as I believe every mythological pantheon is actually a map of the human psyche it fits perfectly.
There are many ancient gods from all over the world who went through a sacrificial ritual of some sort, most of which predate Christian texts. The book by Kersey Graves called "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors" is a good place to start. It has some aspects to it that are outdated or deserves constructive criticism of course, but in general it is a good primer.
The point I am trying to raise is that it could have been a legitimate idea to the Germans/Norse without the influence of Christianity and it is quite clear that Christianity borrowed this idea from older pagan sources.
Odin's one eye, is symbolic for opening of the third eye, as he drinks of the well of Mimir .An Odin priest or more likely a shaman, seeking union with his god .in a sacrificial ritual "myself to myself". A hint to this , is sitting on the top of Yggdrasil . In egypt Horus gives his eye to Osiris , as a sacrifice . The eye of Horus or the falcon sitting behind the pharaohs head is a representation for the pineal gland or the third eye...this is an old idea that still is present India .In Upanishads they say , it was first discovered by the seers or shamans.Thank you Jon , I really like your videos and insight into this topic, but this time what interessted me what that which you found unlikely 😀
Shamans are practitioners in sibirian tradition as a spiritual leader or guide in a tribe. They commune with spirits and it has nothing to do with other regions nor with gods.
Hail Odin!
I am interested to know if the wearing of Thors Hammer was/is a responce to the crucifix or worn was/is independantly as a sign of 'faith' ?
Ah, synchronism between cultures? I do think this is possible due to how we see the wearing of the hammer spread from Denmark up into Middle Scandinavia, and the spread of Christian influence at the same time.
@@Crecganford thank you
9 realms.
👍
Morgan Freeman is Odin cool
That wouldn't make sense since its not a multi ethnic faith.
Could Odin have not hanged himself by the neck, but by the feet? Mabe so, and the sacrifice of his eye could be due to high blood pressure from hanging upside down for nine days? Just thought about it.
Yes, there is that possibility if it was Odin who was hanging... but that is to come in another video.
How can you sacrifice yourself to yourself? That's never made sense to me.
There are different ways of looking at it, but one of the simplest views is that if the poem is about Odin the person, and he is sacrificing to Odin the god, then this makes sense (as much as mythology and religion can).
Old norse poet - "Let us preempt and subvert the spread of Christianity with our own death and resurrection myth - put it in!" Snorri Sturluson- "Let us not tempt fellow Christians with a cooler death and resurrection myth - leave it out!"
True story...
Maybe a remnant of the past when the farming matriarchal societies were being taken over by the patriarchal. If one interprets the Adam and Eve story as the story of the farmers taking over society, where the tree of knowledge represents farming knowledge and Eve is the one who gets the knowledge first and then gives it to Adam, but at a cost. The cost is he must change from a free man who lives a free life in a paradise of hunting and adventure to basically a farming slave ruled by the matriarchs. He must also, in order to prevent the hereditary transfer of the kingship, which is for protecting the towns and farms, sacrifice his eldest son. Thus we have he sacrifice of the SON/Sun. Which we know is a real thing in ancient Canaan after finding their remains under houses in villages.
But then the son was resurrected. Human sacrifice of the eldest son is in the story of Abraham where God demands it and then suddenly changes his mind, probably marking the end of human sacrifice in that region. Heracles stops human sacrifice in the areas he conquered, which may be a result of the indo-european invasion of the herders taking over the matriarchal farmers and re-establishing the patriarchal hereditary kingships. Goes back to the Greek descriptions of the ages of man, the gold, or the great heroes, the silver, when women ruled men, and then on to the bronze and the age of the Greek heroes we know.
Jesus and Odin maybe just the cultural adjustments of the same myth, when human sacrifice and the patriarchal system was ressurrected.
There are some very interesting points in there, and I'm not sure how much you understand about the Old Norse mythology, but you touch on some little known understanding. I will answer some of these questions in another video I am making soon. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Another issue I have with the Christian cognate hypothesis is that, as an origin story for the runes, it would have had to have dated to many hundreds of years after the development of the elder futhark. Some may have no problem with this but, given how magical writing was regarded to any culture that received it, I find it hard to believe the Germanics wouldn’t have already had their own myth that wouldn’t have been dislodged so easily by a new contender. I’m not certain, of course. But this seems to way against the Christian parallels.
Got to be an easier way to learn runes
If you want magic from them then you must sacrifice something.
Couldn't one just offer a cup of tea and a couple of digestives
@@whysogrim697 That would be easier :)
When you say magic what do you actually mean. I would love to know your opinion on how magic fit into their world view and mythology. What powers they thought the runes held or symbolised.
@@whysogrim697 I need a cup of tea before I answer that, it's a small question with a big answer. In fact, I'll put that on my videos to do :)
@Crecganford ... you might find interesting to consider... (read below if you are intrigued, cause it's going to be too long for a short intro comment like this).
... that there is a connection between both stories that is beyond thinking one is a transfiguration of the other, but more like, both represent the same knowledge encrypted in a different way, and presented in a way according to each culture?
The story of Christ, is often misconstrued and shared with abundant contradictions only to hide there is a strong esoteric element attached to it. There is the christ as a figure of spiritual achievement, and there is a Christ, which became well known. But the Christ is not just something that happened once nor is owned by one Jesus that later on became Jesus Christ, but "the christ" is related to a developed potential, the verb becoming a mind that reaches its climax (an image that in other cultures is sometimes represented as the serpent, Kundalini ascending through the spine to the top intellectual center, or the Cobra representing the Nature from where everything comes from connected to the sun, which represents the rise of that potential).
Those myths, stories, narrations or historical records (doesn't matter which) talk about the mind waking, coming to life, from the primordial abyss. That abyss, the never-ending chaos that is the source of everything that could be, is the fertile field for an individuated mind to spring.
The ascension of the mind from the dark depths in which every dragon and terror exists to enlightened heights, is the contact between two natures. In men, that represents that the earthly mind, plagued with material thoughts where monsters crawl and the personality is divided into multiple aspects (that even fight one another sometimes) finally ascending to a clarity in which the personalities disappear and the self becomes integrated.
All that, is mainly achieved by the power of the word.
Words are paths to that which is unknown, and they affect the mind making it grow.
The true understanding of words, the better comprehension of those symbols and parables, leads the mind from oblivion to a lasting memory that trascends time.
That is the gift.
Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, could be considered from that point of view in a completely different manner.
The word "Yggdrasil", whether "Yggr" means Odin himself or "terror", could be the vehicle of Odin, or the vehicle of awe in the case of terror. That has to be contemplated from the perspective that "Odin" comes from a root that talks about mental excitation, inspiration or divine aspects, a spiritual rise and when we talk about "horse", we actually talk about something that "runs", "flows", or "carries" like a car also would. Hence why it could have an implication as "vehicle of the mental arousal".
And that takes things to the image itself, the tree, being a representation of the inner world that has to rise and die, just like sanctification, sacrifice, requires for a mind to achieve it's complete journey towards elevation. Specially if we think of the tree, specially the ash tree, as a representation of man.
Then, inside each man gods, monsters and all sorts of duality systems, creatures and battles are happening till his own personality is completely destroyed (a representation of the ego's death) and it can be born again from that after his own Ragnarok.
The "christ" is that which is ointed , and being rubbed with oil means being touched by the divine. It's a representation of protection, but also of sun light as intellectual clarity in the climax of the superior intellectual center of the body (or at least where some beliefs locate such, which others simply put in the place of the pineal gland). So the christ is the mind being born, the "Nativitas" (birth), the "Christmas" of the self, which ascends through the tree from the bottom where serpents are and where from it's roots he drinks from the waters of memory to gain knowledge (consider memory and the similarity with "mimir" and many other languages in which "מאמר" -Ma’amár or memra-, memoria, dimma, the root *men- , all reflect the same aspects of figures such as Mnemosyne and the muses, all connected with the capacities of the mind. And not only that, but there is always a connection with water as the source of that mind springing out to life. One of the clearest examples is Noah finally finding land after the flood, representing the mind that was able to rise from the depths of that endless abyss in which all the rest perished, and the first sign of that land is an olive branch meaning the well being and peace between man and God).
Odin sacrifices himself to himself, and sacrifice is making something sacred, meaning to "sanctify" it, to make it worthy of spiritual quality, elevate, given to God, towards God. In his Own sacrifice, the death of all he is at that moment gives birth to the Odin he becomes when he finds the true power of the word, through which he is able to interact with the forces the runes represent (same as being dexterous with words and being able to give structure to more complex thoughts and create through them, bridged from one mind to another).
Anyway... I know I said a lot and maybe it wasn't that much, I hope it starts a thought in you that made it worth reading all this in any case.
In sum, besides considering texts being corrupted, there is a knowledge crossing through time in different shapes and languages, that always leads to the rise of the mind from the depths of the abyss in which the cycle never ends, and that only the mind which rises from that depth is able to reach heaven, to pull itself out of the entropy of the serpent that bites its own tail, and make a straight line that cuts the vicious circle.
The actual christ of christianity is aiming to that, same as Jesus teachings are aimed to that (lets not forget the symbolisms around a man who walks over water, his followers being called or associated with "fish", his disciples being known as "fishermen", and him turning water into wine -water being the primordial element from which the mind is born and wine being the fruit of the earth).
And I'll stop here to avoid extending myself even further.
I hope, again, it was worth the reading in some way.
Thank you for your video. I really appreciate someone takes the time to dedicate it to such matters, and do it so carefully. The love you put into it is clearly present in that.
Thank you for taking the time to comment so much, I do have to disagree though, especially because much of which people read about Odin was written by Christians; Odin is often more misunderstood than Christ in my opinion.
@@Crecganford I insist, thank you. For what you share and even for replying so cordially.
But I could only agree with that about Odin being often more misunderstood than Christ.
My point was that, from the get go, christianity is not understood even by the most devoted christians.
If they knew what they're doing they would realize they tend to be more like unwillingly satanists by trying to be good christians.
If that happens with the figure of Christ... Odin has no chance to be viewed in a fairly comprehensive way.
Ecclesiastic authors are not always the best exponents of true and original christianity, so even granting them good intentions, they tend to pervert everything they touch.
Like Odin.
Even Christ.
I'll extend myself in the next comment, to try and underline the point to which I'm guiding the focus.
I will try to keep it as brief as possible, but stil I know I wil fail:
@@Crecganford This follows my previous comment:
the main point I'm trying to make, has to do with the perspective of a deeper knowledge encrypted in both stories. Which can be taken by separating key elements from each.
There is a big esoteric proportion in all that which is usually disguised according to each culture or not disguised sometimes but simply painted with the colors they are more familiar with. And these cosmologies approached from a point of view that involves that, are better understood and make more sense entirely. Each on their own and also combined showing a lot of points in common.
For example the figure of Christ is of a dual nature, since he is in contact with the soil, the earthly, and at the same time comes from a divine nature. Both are finally unified when Jesus is baptized in water (the baptism itself is a representation of the conscious, luminous, mind emerging from the dark waters of the subconscious. He will, later on, willingly accept his sacrifice fulfilling his journey and ascending to the kingdom of heaven.
Odin is a God in form of a wanderer descending to a land in which he will be reborn after his sacrifice and interaction with water.
Despite the differences, in both cases the elements have pillars in common with an impressive symbolic weight.
And that weight points to ancient knowledge practically lost.
Odin doesn't lose an eye as much as he gives one eye to the well. The water, symbol of the depths of the mind, is now a realm in which he has one eye, representing that duality of a figure that is on the shore between two worlds, or two ways to see.
He can see the conscious side, the perceptive reality and as well the subconscious side, the imperceptible reality.
All that taken to any man and from a serious esoteric look, would be equal to him facing his own unknown depths, descending to the lowest parts of himself to face his obstacles in order to achieve wisdom.
Which will only come to him when he is able to sacrifice his personality, what he built himself upon in order to set his spirit actually free from those features that hold back its strength and obstacle the spirit's connection to all knowledge.
When his spirit, his essence is in contact with his soul (considering the spirit as the true incorruptible essence of any being and the soul as the storage of knowledge obtained through experiences marked in memory).
The will, which is a masculine principle, descends to be in touch with his soul, his memory, through sacrifice, in order to be complete.
Which means his death, since he is detached from his previous personality, and a new man , a new conscious, is born from that.
That is the dual principle, integrated in one perfect matrimony between soul and spirit, subconscious and conscious, giving birth to a complete mind, that can see beyond what's visible.
I'm not trying to correct anything, since I actually can tell how carefully you get on board of it. My aim, is to add an esoteric (I insist, a serious esoteric) perspective to add better definition to the big picture.
Considering the Hávamál:
He knows that he hangs from that windy tree, spear wounded. The windy tree paints the image of something yet not that firm, nor that solid that is taking shape, and wind is it's primordial feature. Wind could be associated with the primordial chaos from where things spring out, a confusing and unstable base, but more probably, in this case, symbolizes the "wind" that is insufflated in everything that lives, the spiritual essence, the high creator that moves across and above the water.
The spear head is a triangle, a wedge, which has association with a higher intelligence that shapes what’s below, with the higher mind creating through the impressions left by its presence.
By that spear he is marked.
Nine full nights, nine being the number an end and new beginning, a transposition to a new plane. It's the idea of a new birth after death. It’s about transmutation, the end of a cycle, the culmination of a ring. In association with other myths that are about the birth of a mind or conscience, nine are the muses which represent mental capacities for development and knowledge. They’re daughters of the goddess of memory, of remembrance. The word “muse” itself refers to “mind”, and again there is a really outstanding similarity with “Mímir” and “Memoir”, “Memra”, and many other words referring to that same concept.
Later on actually mentions having nine mighty songs from Mimir, which has a striking resemblance to nine muses from Memory (Mnemosyne), specially since “muses” and “music” have the same meaning, and singing is what the muses do as well. Uttering incantations through voice or instruments.
Nights, because night is the lunar tide, the moment of the subconscious, the time in which things are not visible, were truth is postponed and only intuition allows to “see”.
“To Odin, Myself to Myself”, to mental inspiration, himself as seed from a creator to himself as individual.
That tree that rose from roots no man ever knows, it’s the mind, the conscience that extends its branches in each, though nobody consciously knows where that comes from, unless they see it through intuition, a part of knowledge that is not granted by reasoning nor learning through direct perception.
All the poem can be read through that cypher and understood coherently. Usually, most myths have this underlying message, from norse mythology, to greek, and christian belief as well. There are differences, but it seems there is a rite that is mostly respected by sources here and there, that even when someone corrupts the text, it seems that the words can't be completely erased nor twisted. It's more about confusing the trail so it gets more confusing and difficult to follow it.
the difference is the Jesus sacrifices himself to himself for humanity and free us from Sin, Odin sacrifices himself to himself for mystic knowledge and the power of Language (the runes, a symbolic key). Jesus doesn't need to grasp for the runes because he himself is The Word.
I have no difficulty accepting different origins and concepts behind Odin's legend and Jesus's crucifixion, as you correctly say Odin's sounds more like an initiation, possibly shamanic.
Morgan Freeman?
Sort of...
It's ego death for oden. It scapegoating with christ
From what I have read the Christianizing seemed to be sprinkled around, not well thought out and orchestrated to look pagan. I and someone who asked me, what is the true meaning of the number nine globally. I don't see off hand it in my notes, but there was something about (IIRC) the nine day week in History & Chronology of the Myth-Making Age. The best guess would be the time of human gestation.
I’m watching a bit late, but any videos using your expertise on ancient Norse texts would be great. I’m sad to say I’m quite ignorant of true Norse tradition being American therefore having so much cultural stereotyping to not have any confidence in any lingering information in my brain.
I will come back to making more videos on this culture in the not too distant future as I do miss talking about it.
What do the stanzas REALLY mean? not talking about the academic bs Jackson Crawford explanation. What do the stanzas REALLY mean?
I have spent a couple of months translating some excellent thesis on this, and will present some views soon, which are interesting and a whole new look at these. I hope you watch when it comes out.
Why did Odin sound like Morgan Freeman? 🤦🏻♂️
For the RUclips algorithm...
Ragnarok is pronounced 'roun-øh-rok'
Sorry but i just dont understand the need to compare Odin and Jesus. Jesus is a fictional character that never lived and Odin has been alive since the biginning of the world or even earlier
Odin is theoretically the equivalent of Manu, the first primordial being… but this is to answer many Abrahamic scholars who ask me this question when they interview me.
Maybe Odin was the first to do this ritual which made him the All father, then later Jesus also preformed the ritual to become his own version of an All father.
I have produced a video discussing the All Father, and what I think it really meant. At the end of the day, myths evolve and change, and this is what is happening here.
The story of Jesus in its modern form wasn't really written until much later (than when the story takes place). I always assumed they placed the Norse and Greek myths over Judaism to get to Christianity, using Jesus as a central figure to place certain myths around. I also see some of Baldur's story in Jesus' story. Also how there isnt really an underworld in judaism, from what i understand, and the Christian hell seems to be a combination of Helheim and Tartarus. Would that have even been possible?
You might enjoy Mythvision here on RUclips. He has many videos with many scholars discussing the Jesus story and myth.
I think you’re very correct. The more foundational elements of the Christ myth are from Greco-Roman influence (with some Zoroastrianism here and there) and then Judaism as the coating on top. This includes all the “prophecy fulfillment”, which are mostly copy-pasting the Old Testament or inserting things to be fulfillments of random prophecy. Basically, you have an Indo-European myth inside a shell of Judaic connections.
No he's portraying Odin Pagan Religion!
I think you didn't watch the video :)
@@Crecganford True, I didn't.....I usually do. Thankyou
I vaguely recall from Frazer's ''The Golden Bough'' of a pre-Christian, Northern European sacrificial fertility rite involving nailing or otherwise affixing a king or god substitute to an evergreen tree as part of a fertility rite. In most of these early rites, I believe, that it was necessary for the healthy sacrifice to be ''willing'', or at least complaisant, possibly drugged into compliance?
Another aspect that springs to mind is the possibility of a shamanistic practice of auto-erotic asphyxiation, leading to an out-of-body experience or altered consciousness.
Frazer is entertaining, but not to quote on anything but comedy.
I always thought of shamanistic reasoning. Never considered a parallel with Christ
I was learnt from other experts on Odin that Jesus was a copy of Odin in the sacrifice. I don’t think Jesus was a sacrifice I think Romans killed because at that moment they were killing in the cross a lot of people in order to create control and fear among between the people. God is love he don’t want these killings and wars and sacrifices. Roman Catholics do this they blamed to the Jews the death of Jesus they say were the Jews who killed him and God sacrificed his own son bu actually was the Roman who killed Jesus. This is not a sacrifice this is a murder.
You have good knowledge but you don't understand the deeper meanings of Christianity to see the correlations... like giving himself to himself... in Christianity we are God's little g... psalms 82:6 he gives himself to himself because he died for our sins... which is really himself...matthew 25:40... see for you truly to comprehend whether Odin was jesus or not you have to have a indebt of Christianity....somewhat of a mystic depth because it goes deeper then that... even 9 in Christianity means completeness or it is finished... you always have to have a indebt of hebrew it's way way deeper then your comprehending... but you still did a Good job... with what you where able to do
Odin was not Jesus
@@joshuadavis2099 Odin has been around longer than Jesus, so simple maths means he isn't.
@@joshuadavis2099 This is an academic channel, and you are now mistranslating and relying on confirmation bias. I will leave you to your theories, but I will continue to spread the truth.
@@Crecganford lol typical answer once you school someone... I bet you caint refute none of the correlation I just made... But it's all good bro... If you have to wait for the main stream media or some school to approve the truth for you to believe you'll never discover the truth....
@@joshuadavis2099 nope, my time is too important to waste on your arguments
After aske embla were created the gods raised temples and worship began after Odin made the first blot sacrifice if himself thus he sanctified the nine worlds and drew all heros to himself then got a drink as in the sumble then gained wisdom and valhall began.. thus we make blot have a sumble and then feast with the gods as in Valhall.. Odin did what jesus claimed to long before jesus even existed. Jesus is the copy. The fall of Odin is necassary to redeem all after ragnarok.
In my opinion, it seems like the verses are certainly Old Norse in origin but do bear some Christian influence.....
If you are at all familiar with the Old Saxon Heliand, you will see how there are many ancient Germanic retellings of stories of Jesus and his disciples to make them more palatable, for lack of a better term, to the recently-converted Saxons.....
To me, these verses of Odin's sacrifice to himself seems very much like that, like it was an old story that developed earlier during the Viking Age, roughly c. 750 - 1050 CE, and it was finally written down in Old Icelandic in the 13th century, by literate Christian Icelandic scribes, who were writing in Latin script and who were very familiar with the Old Norse "pagan" traditions but were their selves Christians, and they were writing these sagas and all this poetry and prose in order to preserve as much of the old stories and tales and traditions as they could......
For me personally, there is just too much that is so close to the story of Christ's crucifixion for it to have no Christian influence whatsoever.....
However, I feel that it is not actually Christian in nature, but perhaps an Old Norse "pagan" answer to the gospel story, perhaps from a time when Old Norse pagans were still holding out and competing with Christianity for influence and prestige, possibly during the early 11th century??
But certainly by the time that the sagas and eddas were written down in Old Icelandic, in Latin script, during the 13th century, the whole of Scandinavia had been Christianized, as well as Iceland, but I feel that there was perhaps a stronger connection to and a deeper respect for the old ways in Medieval Iceland, and that is why the scribes there, although Christian by the 13th century, worked to compile so many sagas and tales and poetry that hearkened back to the Old Norse pagan world of the Viking Age.....
yeshua might be balder or... another son of odin.
An intriguing idea although I cannot see any reason to think this.
@@Crecganford the paralles uncanny.