I was thinking about the myths of the Kalevala and whether they fit into these archaic myths from prehistory. I suppose they aren’t properly Norse but I find them very interesting.
@@ggilleland8903 I'm talking to an expert on the Kalevala Monday afternoon, and I'll ask him what his thoughts are and let you know. There is certainly some kind of "Solar" motif going on in some of it.
@@Valdagast @crecganford I think we should consider a bit more the mixed, evolutionary heritage of most myths in what are considered (mainly) Indo-European cultures. To make it very binary: it seems there is a mix of earlier mother goddess / agrarian type cultures and associated myths, which were fused / taken over / invaded by pastoralist herder / warrior cultures with their associated myths and stories. That sketch of a model seems to apply from China to Europe (along the steppe corridor - surprise). The result being a fusion of myths and stories from both sources. This might happen through groups of young men of herder cultures setting off to go west and fusing into agrarian cultures either by marriage and/or by more violent invasions again and again over time. Notably, even Plato seems have been influenced in his mythical stories and politico-philosophical system by both ‚types’ of cultures: a more democratic, egalitarian one seemingly from his mother’s family side and a more hierarchical, aristocratic one from his father‘s side.
You're really good at the storytelling aspect of these. Not saying you should stop this regular content, but you should consider branching out & maybe doing a new channel of like, simple animations & your narration of all these mythical tales. So the kids can find out about who they are and where they come from.
Love the story of Thor and Jormungandr being a devotee of Thunor.also love hearing stories about Indra.been meaning to purchase a copy of the rig veda/mahabharata many thanks John.
Yes, this story fascinated me once I understood its origins, real Indo-European myth here. As for getting a copy of the Vedas, a decent translation, much like the Eddas, I would recommend getting a few versions and always comparing them. Try and get one also written by an Indian author, as early English translations may have had some bias in them, much as Snorri did with the Prose Edda.
The painting shown at 15:28 was not of Indra and Vritra, it was actually Krishna and Kaliya Naga. But, maybe those stories are also related. The Vritra vs Indra was a much older story. Here is the story about Krishna and Kaliya Snake: The great serpent Kaliya took residence in the sacred river Yamuna. His many poison fanged heads created a toxicity level deathly dangerous to THE COWS and all people that drank and bathed downstream. Outraged, Krishna jumped on Kaliya's hoods attempting to beat the serpent into submission. In defense, Kaliya coiled around Krishna's body. But after failing to crush Krishna, he then tried to drown him by dragging him deep into the water. But, then Krishna bounded back up onto the hoods of Kaliya, much to his surprise. Krishna danced on Kaliya's multiple heads as if he was an excited frantic child. In a short amount of time, extensive damage had been inflicted upon the plates protecting the snake's skull. The exhausted and battered Kaliya desperately begged for mercy. Our cowherd hero Krishna then granted permission for him to vacate his beloved river and relocate somewhere else. The sweet waters of the Yamuna returned to their original pure state and the grateful residents of Vrindaban cheered and celebrated.
Yes, it does, but finding good multi-headed india cultured dragon slaying pictures is difficult :) But still I do feel the Mahabharata would pick up some of these themes, so I thought I could get away with it :)
the interesting connection is that Krishna is the complete incarnation of Vishnu and Vishnu is the younger brother of Indra in the Vedas - if many religions hold very similar themes then i’d argue that this is all metaphorical/essentially valuable parables and that they aren’t literally blood-related brothers but instead they’re jungian archetypes with metaphorically compatible themes regarding personal,societal, universal , and spiritual growth
@@JA-yx9mq Yes! That sounds right to me. And, Vishnu amazingly evolved from being Indra's little bro from back in the Vedic days to becoming the "Greatest God" in the Hindu Trinity. Though the millions of followers of Shiva and Durga etc would disagree. Major branches of Vaishnava (Vishnuite) teachings have put Vishnu as the "Primeval Godhead" and the original source of all Avatars. Certain sub-branches elevated Krishna to be "the source of Vishnu as well as the source of all the other Avatars (Gaudiya Vaishnavism). The deck of cards (gods) gets reshuffled according to how culture changes by merging with other cultures by conquest or proximity.
I look to the sky and assume the the Midgard Serpent is what we call the Milky Way, circling the Earth. If you are at sea, the Mitgard Serpent ends in the ocean far, far away!
Or ... how about saying that the Midgard Serpent is the body of water that encircles the known world, after the post-Ice Age flooding of the Mediterranean basin ?
The irony is that Set seems to have originally had a role similar to storm gods like Baal, but over time became identifies with traditional enemies of such gods like the Greek Typhon.
My first thought hearing this story and having seen your recent video on fighting dragons, is that this sounds like a masculine coming of age ritual. Especially given that Thor is dressed as a boy, ie that there is a secretly a powerful man inside him.
New subscriber here. I’ve been binging on Native American stories about battles between horned water serpents and the thunder bird, kills ‘em with lightning, so I was listening to this story in that context. Do you think there are parallels between these stories in your video and the Native American horned serpent stories?
Fascinating, I've listened once and will listen again! An idea for this water serpent who was encircling the earth, is that this relates to the rising sea levels after the last Ice Age. European people would have witnessed the spread and growth of the coastal waters, seen land being 'eaten' by the ravishing waters, and imagined that the waters were encircling Europe and would eventually meet in a circle around them (the head taking hold of the tail). For instance, there was the post-Ice Age flooding of the North Sea, cutting NW Europe & Scandinavia off from Britain. And the flooding of the Mediterranean basin, or at least the eastern Mediterranean which I understand was once a land valley connecting the land to the north and south. Europeans would indeed have felt surrounded by a monstrous water-serpent ... ?
Another possibility for the Midgard serpent (as well as my suggestion below for the rising coastal sea levels) is that this represents the Gulf Stream. From what I've read about later legends from the end of the Bronze age, ie. the Odyssey, the Gulf Stream appeared to be well known to the Bronze Age sailors who called it the "Ocean River". They understood it was a river in the sea and they thought that it went to the end of the world. For example, they used it for going the 'north-way' , ie. up along the coast of Norway. Maybe when they first encountered this relentless current - in the early days of sea-faring or perhaps as a new phenomenon after the Ice Age - they thought that it was a water-serpent, and were fearful of it getting longer and longer and presumed that it would eventually encircle their known world, ie. the head eating the tail ... What do you think ?! I'm basing this "Ocean River in the Odyssey tale = the Gulf Stream" on the amazing research done by Felice Vince who has placed the Odyssey in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea at the end of the Bronze Age, when the climate was cooling. His book, "Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales" is really worth reading, makes sense of a lot of things, so much in there :)
This is great, thanks for taking us through this. I loved the engraved representations of this myth, such as the Gosforth stone. But I wonder a bit why you think that the water element was added later to the Norse myths, rather than thinking it was dropped from the eastern Vedic myths. In your video on the Ferryman, you made a convincing argument that the myth had its origin in northern Europe and got dispersed to the east, and because water & sea-faring did not have the same significance to that society as it did to the Bronze Age Norse, the water part got dropped. Couldn't the same apply here ? The Aryans who travelled east to India are thought to have brought the Veda myths with them, presumably a derivation or branch of the Norse Eddas. At least that's what I've come to understand.
The Morrigan in Irish mythology is a Triple Deity who was a war and land goddess. She is known for stealing cattle as a way to create wars. A lot of people don't think about Her connection to cattle. In one of the stories, a woman involved is transformed into a river. I cant remember details off the top of my head.
Have you ever heard the story of Lambton's worm? It's not exactly an ancient epic, but is a poem native to the Northeast of England. I find very interesting how tales have themes and tropes that morph throughout time, place, and culture. I wonder what myths and fables will be told to the children in another thousand years.
I think there is something missing here... In the creation myth we see that the cattle evolves into a dragon while outsiders are being changed into a dragon in the raiding myth... It's strange that the reward and the enemy would both be serpents/dragons... unless there is some other connection between the creation stories and the raiding stories that is being missed. I'd guess it'd have to be something about having to sacrifice the hunter gatherer way of life for the agrarian way of life. At that point HG would be considered outsiders/enemies but simultaneously, farmers and cattle, so far as i remember, didn't last a very long lasting way of life until long after these stories would have been invented, but I'm sure there would have been attempts through out that period so this story could possibly be a warning and that's why both end up being dragons? Just a thought.
Where do we see the cattle turn into a dragon, as I think I'm missing that reference. However the who serpent motif, or strictly speaking motifs are quite complex, and I hope to cover them further soon.
@@Crecganford The Cattle from the creation myth that becomes Tiamat. That would be, if I'm following correctly, the same or close to the same cattle that is stolen and retrieved in the raiding myth.
@@DurakkenThe cattle that are sacrificed in the creation myths is not necessarily the same as the cattle that are stolen and retrieved, though the two motifs can be conflated which is what appears to have happened in Mithraism.
What do you think Soma was made of ? Are the ingredients ever revealed historically? Thanks for the videos ! Super entertaining, and amazing story telling !!!! :D
Thank you for watching, and a good question. However, that answer is for another video specifically, as these drinks have a complex history which is too long to write here. But that video is in the pipeline, but not sure how long it will be before I can publish it.
I feel like there’s some parallels with the Thor Midgard serpent fishing story, and the Polynesian story of Maui fishing with his brothers and pulling up part of Hawaii/New Zealand myths. What do you think?
Interesting, and thanks for watching and your comment. I think that whilst they may have similar motifs, and similar aspects with regards boating may influence similar stories, but the reasoning behind the stories are different. So maybe not from the same original source, even if they have similarities.
Could it be that the Gobekli Tepe civilization was the common ancestor of both Mesopotamian and Indo-European myths? After all, it spread from Anatolia to Mesopotamia and west and north east Anatolia. North east Anatolia being the the original area of proto-European civilization from which it spread west into Europe and east towards Iran and India. All these cultures seem to share myths about a sky/stormgod defeating a water snake, with a special place for cows and bulls. And all these myths have newer generations of gods defeating the older generations (Titans, Jotun/giants, and whatever Tiamat etc was). The Gobekli Tepe people had agriculture from a very early time period (10,000bc), since sickles and signs of agriculture are found at Gobekli Tepe. They could easily be the "Annunaki/wise men that came from the north" from which the Mesopotamians claimed they learned knowledge(technology) and farming from. For hunter gatherers, it might've looked like these people were in control of nature (Be able to control huge (tamed) beasts, growing crops etc) and therefore had divine knowledge. Perhaps they were even the first god-kings. Or maybe even the mightiest families were turned into-, or later inspired a pantheon. Anyway, they seem to have passed some of the same myths/customs to wherever they went.
Hey, sorry, I missed this comment when you posted it. There maybe some influence here although EEFs aren't PIE, but there is some overlap in terms of migrations, and PIE needed to get their farming knowledge somewhere. I will talk about this at some point, but it requires a lot of work making maps, but I will get there as it is my hope to have explanations for the history of Eurasian cultures and religion, from 20k years ago to 2k years ago.
@@Texasmade74 I do believe that we have enough evidence to say Tiamat was a cow in her original form, but as we know myths evolve and change with the cultural and religious landscape.
@@Crecganford Thank you for your answer. However it would fit in many areas, given that 7500 BC the Gobekli Tepe culture and site was still in use in Anatolia and there is quite a bit of evidence pre-proto-indo-European originated in Anatolia: "Piggot (1983) states that PIE contains words for technologies that make their first appearance in the archaeological record in the Late Neolithic, in some cases bordering on the early Bronze Age, some belonging to the oldest layers of PIE. The lexicon includes words relating to agriculture (dated to 7500 BC), stockbreeding (6500 BC), metallurgy (5500 BC), the plough (4500 BC), gold (4500 BC), domesticated horses (4000-3500 BC) and wheeled vehicles (4000-3400 BC)." Ref : Piggott, Stuart (1983). The Earliest Wheeled Transport: From the Atlantic Coast to the Caspian Sea. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press. ISBN 978-0-80-141604-0. According to Renfrew, the spread of Indo-European proceeded in the following steps: "Around 6500 BC: Pre-Proto-Indo-European, in Anatolia, splits into Anatolian and Archaic Proto-Indo-European, the language of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European farmers who migrate to Europe in the initial farming dispersal. Archaic Proto-Indo-European languages occur in the Balkans (Starčevo-Körös culture), in the Danube valley (Linear Pottery culture), and possibly in the Bug-Dniestr area (Eastern Linear pottery culture). Around 5000 BC: Archaic Proto-Indo-European splits into Northwestern Indo-European (the ancestor of Italic, Celtic, and Germanic), in the Danube valley, Balkan Proto-Indo-European (corresponding to Gimbutas' Old European culture) and Early Steppe Proto-Indo-European (the ancestor of Tocharian)...." Ref : Renfrew, Colin (2003). "Time Depth, Convergence Theory, and Innovation in Proto-Indo-European: 'Old Europe' as a PIE Linguistic Area". In Bammesberger, Alfred; Vennemann, Theo (eds.). Languages in Prehistoric Europe. Heidelberg: Universitätsverlag Winter GmBH. pp. 17-48. ISBN 978-3-82-531449-1. Given that most Europeans have a significant amount of Anatolian farmer DNA (and we know Gobekli Tepe people were farming over 11000 years ago). And we actually have 2 theories of origin (Anatolian and Kurgan) and we have strong evidence for both, perhaps we should not point to one and say : these are the ancestral people and culture of Europeans. Perhaps we had the language of the Anatolians, the genetics of both, and the culture of the steppe people (Yamnaya and the later Beaker and Gravehill/Urn cultures etc) and it became one big mix.
The Sumerians took this story too, when Hadad comes down from Heaven to kill Leviathan. The Jews took it later as God himself comes down from Heaven to kill Leviathan.
Northern Eurasia do not have lightning or snakes anywhere as near as Equatorial places. So most probably the "Thunder god slaying water serpent" myth originated near the equator.
The climate of Earth has changed dramatically over the last 20k years, even the last 10k years, and so I couldn't say for sure that that is accurate. Certainly the dragon myth we currently tell is from the PIE speaking cultures, but the word Dragon has been around for 20k+ years and so myths have been around much longer than we have stories for.
@@Crecganford In archeological science there's very few things we can say for sure. That is why I used the term most probably above! Also climate near the poles, at all times of glaciation , most probably cannot produce tropical storms and heavy rain. Also what make you think, people near the equator, who's going through storms in day to day life wouldn't have a storm God but the others?
@@mytube12 I agree, there were no tropical storms near the poles, although I do prescribe to the thought that part of the Abrahamic god's make up was originally a storm god, but this storm god seems to have come from a volcano in the region, rather than a storm. It is also fascinating stuff.
@@Crecganford volcanic lightning is rare and they should have mentioned it directly since if it's the more important since it's rare! Most probably these stories or versions of these stories were brought to these regions during migration!
This is a fantastic question, and one I will be answering in the next couple of months, with a couple of videos on Dragons and Serpents. It is all to do with the change in culture forced the change in the story with the Serpent, and what the result of defeat was. But at one point in our ancestors past defeating the serpent allowed them to control water, and this is where Hydra initially came to be. I hope you stick around to watch them.
@@Crecganford Yes yes yes absolutely. I realized after I had posted the question. Haha sorry for the dumb question, just thought I would leave it all up there so you have more overall comments, thereby influencing the youtube algorithms so that more people can hopefully see your videos !!
I think these stories are about climate change. My environmental policy professor went into a long discussion about how old stories are warnings for us in the future, about how we humans interact with Nature.
Sorry. I know I comment twice on every video. I just have thoughts. I wonder how this relates to the icons of ths Minoan snake handlers - which we know was a more matriarchal/egalitarian culture. In the places where we see snakes/dragons withholding water / treasure / life / knowledge, do we see any evidence of snake veneration? In the areas where snakes and dragons are still venerated, is it because of their isolation from the snake-slayer myth?
There are example of snake worship and sacrifice through European culture, but with geography and timelines so vast, we really do need to be specific on time and place to be able have a detailed discussion.
2 года назад+3
In this video, you say that a god can't sacrifice to himself. But isn't that exactly what it's claimed Odin did when he hanged himself on Yggdrasil to gain knowledge of the runes and things, Odin sacrificng himself to himself?
This is a great question with no quick way of answering it. I will do another video about Odin hanging, to explain more, but will ensure I answer this question in it.
I must have missed the Tiamat and bovine connection, do you have a reference to that? Through my research all of these hero and dragon stories are about the Taurid Stream bombarding the world as in the Younger Dryas Impacts Theory. Even in Gobekli Tepe there are two central monoliths surrounded by twelve smaller monoliths, one of the central figures stands on seven birds of the Pleiades and the adversary stands alongside with a bull on its chest. I think it is profound that there are two references to the constellation of Taurus to which said stream seems to emanate from in the center of the shrine that was build just after the 12,900 year old destruction of the Earth.
I have a video on the Enuma Elish, within that, and probably the video description I refer to the discovery of another copy of the 5th tablet that infers that Tiamat is a cow.
@@Crecganford - Thanks, I'll check that out. Your not buying any of that, eh? Maybe in time... A Kalevala expert, can you ask about the Kaali Craters on Saaremaa? Also at the beginning of Kalevala 210 The teal on the maidens knee " And she laid her eggs all golden, Six gold eggs she laid within it, And a seventh she laid of iron.". See what I mean? Maiden, bird, seven, and iron, four references to the Pleiades where the iron nickle meteors come from.
Runo XIV 307 'Open now thy celfts in heaven, And in all the sky thy windows, Let the iron hail fall downwards, Send thou down the frozen masses, On the mane of that good courser, On the back of Hiisi's courser.' Ukko then, the great Creator, Jumala 'mid clouds exalted, Heard and rent the air asunder, Clove in twain the vault of heaven, Scattered ice, and scattered iceblocks, Scattered down the iron hailstones, Smaller than a horse's head is, Larger than a head of man is, On the mane of that good courser, On the back of Hiisi's courser. Jumala is a superbolide not lightning.
@@bardmadsen6956 Sorry, as an aside, I'm not an expert on Globeki Tepe, and so I just don't have an informed opinion yet, although it does interest me and when I do we can have a good discussion about it :)
@@Crecganford - Cool, email so images can be attached. I might be able to help as I have found that it takes many different sources to even get a good look at it.
so what are the chances that thor is literal lightning, the bulls head is mars and Jormungandr is the tectonic plates ? so when thor comes down with the bulls head, the mountains raise . if you look at the scar on mars it looks alot like pitting from plasma discharge.
If I'm honest, I would say it is very unlikely. Tectonic plates have only been known about for less than 100 years, and Thor means thunder as opposed to lightning. Just these issues would cast some doubt of the hypothesis.
I’m not sure of the origin of the 3-headed god. I have read some some papers about it, but I think I need to do more research before I can answer this properly.
I thought you didn't consider Thor a storm god? Did you change your mind? Thor (or rather, Hymir) brings back food from the fishing trip even if he doesn't bring back the cattle. Maybe the cattle has split into two - one as the bull's head and one as the whalefish Hymir catches.
My opinion is atill the same, Thor is a sky god, but has warrior god properties, and has the storm god properties a sky god would have which aren't the same as storm gods, which tie him with other storm gods who aren't sky god. I'm not sure if that makes sense, perhaps I should do a specific video on this?
One of the ways my head works is that it tends to lose details of names and timescales but retains patterns of narratives and behaviours. One of the patterns I recognised many moons ago is that many epics of warriors vs monsters appear to follow the same arc as newly created gods from chaos vs aboriginal gods or forces. In my view, most warrior myths are a retelling of the creation / god myths woven around a known or fictitious hero. Not only do the biblical tales of the Old Testament follow the same arc, so do many of the myths surrounding the life of Jesus. Considering your knowledge of these myth cycles I need hardly give specific examples... you know what they are! What is the origin of the many-headed water serpent? You need look no further than the post-glacial maximum warming and rising sea levels. Most ancient peoples were within sight of coastlands. While locals would be aware, even if only from recent tribal history of land lost to the sea, those who travelled would become aware by of changing coastlines, of how the waters at every coastline were eating up the land, which would include grazing land. Thus loss of grazing land = loss of cattle to a many-headed encroachment / sea-serpent. What is important here is that even when the action takes place near a mountain-top, it is a water-serpent, even a sea-serpent that is the antagonist. The sky-god or storm-god vs serpent of the deep, may simply be a reflection of the observation that a storm at sea results in high, random and very destructive wave-action, the result of the battle between the storm-god and sea-serpent. But eventually the storm abates and the sea calms as the storm-god overcomes the sea-serpent... at least temporarily. On a human level a fisherman fighting a big fish on his line or hauling in a net will see the water churned to foam. In summary: form-out-of-chaos> elder gods > supplanted by younger gods (who now comprise the pantheon) > demi-gods of gods + mortals> warrior heroes. Similar antagonists and actions repeat on a diminishing scale, like a fractal mythologem. (I've just made that metaphor up, how impressed am I with myself?) And that sequence leads to the inevitable conclusion that man cannot live by Mandelbrot alone.
An unrelated question recently i heard one of the many myths regarding the greek aphrodite, and i suddendly had a doubt, why hestia is seen as the first born of the olympian if aphrodite was born from uranus severed genitals by chronus, wouldn't this timeline make her older if not even totally separated from the 12 olympians?
I certainly don’t know, but if there is any ancient stories or myths that come from North America that resembles the younger dress event, or squatter man, can you please sir give us your thoughts on that. Thank you in advance
Yes, I am slowly putting together a piece on the YD event, both from a flood myth perspective, and influence on Indo European culture. But I do have some sources on NA culture, and so will happily expand it, or do a separate video. Thanks for watching :)
I'm taking a chance that since your channel is new, you check back occasionally on older videos. So, here I go. Does evidence suggest that Africa had a separate origin for its spirituality or ideas about gods, death and fertility? Is there evidence showing an indirect influence of PIE? Did the desert severely hamper communication with Sub-Saharan Africa (apart from the east coast Sub Saharan)?
My knowledge of African culture is very very limited, although I briefly touch it when talking about American Gods in an earlier video. I'm sure there were pantheons in some parts on the continent. But it is complicated, but I do not believe it has any direct impact on PIE, nor even EEFs, but the basic concept of animism. The best place to look is the Australians who are in effect a snapshot of the people's who left Africa around 75k ago (this is a super-high-level view).
The biblical God also had the same battle with the leviathan, in the book of Job god is talking to job and explains to him how he put a hook in the jaw of leviathan God had 2 meetings with the leviathan and defeated it in the 2nd meeting cutting its throat very very similar
I have papers saying that Set had the head of a Jackal, I'm not sure if I reference them in the description, but I do have some backing to that statement.
Another question, pederasty and homosexuality is common in ancient greek myth, and zeus himself reproduce a variety of these myths then, are there any moment where zeus has had any of these relationship? I at least never heard of these.
The circle of mythology looks like annual economic activity. The government through its central bank issues currency which enters the economy. People perform or create goods/services in which money goes into their pockets and in return they pay the government back in taxes. I guess we're living in our own mythology.
I’m wondering about the failures of Thor being historically legitimate in relation to The epic of Gilgamesh in which he fails in morality and accomplishment but ultimately becomes a hero. So while there probably is Christian bias, the opposite side of the coin is Gilgamesh as a story archetype perhaps
That's a good point, and I must say it isn't a unanimously accepted idea about UT and Thor, but it is one that has grown significantly recently. I'll see if I can find a paper on it.
@@Crecganford A very much Thor like figure is also figured in the Rigveda (Indra). A red haired stormgod with a lightning bolt weapon that rides a wagon that defeats a dragon/snake. The Hittites had Tarhunna/Taru as sky-god wealding a lightning weapon that defeated a snake/dragon. (perhaps the name Thor comes from this name? Taru->Tar->T(h)or) Given that the myth already existed at least 1500BC in Anatolia, India, and Sumeria, the myth might be much older. We know the Gobekli Tepe civilization spread around the area around 10000bce. To the place where the hypotized Proto-European culture started (Anatolia and current day Georgia) from which it spread to India and Europe, and to downstream the Euphrates and Tigris and possibly introducing agriculture in Mesopotamia (sickles and signs of agriculture are found at Gobekli Tepe long before it started in Mesopotamia). Looking at the art and artstyle, the Gobekli Tepe civilization is very European looking. With boars, dogs, ducks, bears and so on. And bulls and cows had a very special place in their religion. I don't know if you are following a channel that is called "Survive the Jive". He did recently a very interesting video about "passing holes", which are also found in Gobekli Tepe. So perhaps the Mesopotamian religion and the Indo-European religion share a common ancestor. Due to their mastery over crops and very high level of technology, the people from Gobekli Tepe might've been the inspiration for the "gods/wise men that taught humanity knowledge" etc. After all, the Mesopotamians said the annunaki that taught them knowledge and farming came from the north. All these religions also have a story about older generations (Titans, Giants, Tiamat etc) of gods that get defeated by a newer generation. And again snakes/dragons play a huge role in all mythologies including the Gobekli Tepe one. Perhaps they also inherited this from the Gobekli Tepe civilization. You really should do research into Gobekli Tepe. I am curious what you think :)
@@mver191 Yes, a lot of the points you mention outside of Globeki Tepe I have already covered in my videos including those connections. And I will eventually get around to make a video showing human cultural and religous evolution from the Younger Dryas event to the Proto Indo Europeans to cover some of what you are saying, and it will mention Globeki Tepe and other other centers of culture in the region at the time.
A three faced god in the Mediterranean reminds one of the Pashupati seal from the Indus Valley civilization: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal where there might be a link e.g. through trade from the IVC to the gulf of Persia and then from there on to the Mediterranean. Or maybe the IVC (demise?) influenced a part of what was told by Plato as the stories of the ancients - like the one on Atlantis - via Persia and Egypt onto the Mediterranean and thus Greece? (Very speculative, I know).
The academic view is that a three head god was worshipped across the Indo-Mediterranean sub-continent, and so may have stemmed from the same source or have been the "same" god, or as much as it could be.
@@charly996 It was referenced in a book by Bruce Lincoln. I did re-read it. I will try and post a quote from it tomorrow. Thank you for reminding me :)
@@Texasmade74 I didn't say the PIE went into Africa, not in any significant numbers anyway, but some of their myths did. Mark Pagel did work on this, and you can see influence in Genesis of PIE myth and Egypt myth mixing.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Are there any Old Norse myths you would like to know more about?
I was thinking about the myths of the Kalevala and whether they fit into these archaic myths from prehistory. I suppose they aren’t properly Norse but I find them very interesting.
@@ggilleland8903 I'm talking to an expert on the Kalevala Monday afternoon, and I'll ask him what his thoughts are and let you know. There is certainly some kind of "Solar" motif going on in some of it.
Ragnarok. Would be great to know what Indo-European ancestry that has. I don't know of apocalyptic tales in other PIE mythologies.
@@Valdagast that's a great idea!
@@Valdagast @crecganford I think we should consider a bit more the mixed, evolutionary heritage of most myths in what are considered (mainly) Indo-European cultures. To make it very binary: it seems there is a mix of earlier mother goddess / agrarian type cultures and associated myths, which were fused / taken over / invaded by pastoralist herder / warrior cultures with their associated myths and stories. That sketch of a model seems to apply from China to Europe (along the steppe corridor - surprise).
The result being a fusion of myths and stories from both sources. This might happen through groups of young men of herder cultures setting off to go west and fusing into agrarian cultures either by marriage and/or by more violent invasions again and again over time.
Notably, even Plato seems have been influenced in his mythical stories and politico-philosophical system by both ‚types’ of cultures: a more democratic, egalitarian one seemingly from his mother’s family side and a more hierarchical, aristocratic one from his father‘s side.
You're really good at the storytelling aspect of these. Not saying you should stop this regular content, but you should consider branching out & maybe doing a new channel of like, simple animations & your narration of all these mythical tales. So the kids can find out about who they are and where they come from.
Thank you for the feedback and suggestion, perhaps I'll give that a go. Watch this space! :)
This MF predicting the future 2 years ago
an underrated channel for sure! Great work Jon.
Mythvision brought me here
Thank you :)
Love the story of Thor and Jormungandr being a devotee of Thunor.also love hearing stories about Indra.been meaning to purchase a copy of the rig veda/mahabharata many thanks John.
Yes, this story fascinated me once I understood its origins, real Indo-European myth here. As for getting a copy of the Vedas, a decent translation, much like the Eddas, I would recommend getting a few versions and always comparing them. Try and get one also written by an Indian author, as early English translations may have had some bias in them, much as Snorri did with the Prose Edda.
@@Crecganford thanks for the heads up.much appreciated
The painting shown at 15:28 was not of Indra and Vritra, it was actually Krishna and Kaliya Naga. But, maybe those stories are also related. The Vritra vs Indra was a much older story.
Here is the story about Krishna and Kaliya Snake:
The great serpent Kaliya took residence in the sacred river Yamuna. His many poison fanged heads created a toxicity level deathly dangerous to THE COWS and all people that drank and bathed downstream. Outraged, Krishna jumped on Kaliya's hoods attempting to beat the serpent into submission. In defense, Kaliya coiled around Krishna's body. But after failing to crush Krishna, he then tried to drown him by dragging him deep into the water. But, then Krishna bounded back up onto the hoods of Kaliya, much to his surprise.
Krishna danced on Kaliya's multiple heads as if he was an excited frantic child. In a short amount of time, extensive damage had been inflicted upon the plates protecting the snake's skull. The exhausted and battered Kaliya desperately begged for mercy.
Our cowherd hero Krishna then granted permission for him to vacate his beloved river and relocate somewhere else. The sweet waters of the Yamuna returned to their original pure state and the grateful residents of Vrindaban cheered and celebrated.
Yes, it does, but finding good multi-headed india cultured dragon slaying pictures is difficult :) But still I do feel the Mahabharata would pick up some of these themes, so I thought I could get away with it :)
the interesting connection is that Krishna is the complete incarnation of Vishnu and Vishnu is the younger brother of Indra in the Vedas - if many religions hold very similar themes then i’d argue that this is all metaphorical/essentially valuable parables and that they aren’t literally blood-related brothers but instead they’re jungian archetypes with metaphorically compatible themes regarding personal,societal, universal , and spiritual growth
@@JA-yx9mq Yes! That sounds right to me.
And, Vishnu amazingly evolved from being Indra's little bro from back in the Vedic days to becoming the "Greatest God" in the Hindu Trinity. Though the millions of followers of Shiva and Durga etc would disagree.
Major branches of Vaishnava (Vishnuite) teachings have put Vishnu as the "Primeval Godhead" and the original source of all Avatars. Certain sub-branches elevated Krishna to be "the source of Vishnu as well as the source of all the other Avatars (Gaudiya Vaishnavism).
The deck of cards (gods) gets reshuffled according to how culture changes by merging with other cultures by conquest or proximity.
I would be interested in Loki the trickster stories, the trickster archetype appears in creation myths from non proto Indo European culture's as well.
One of the best channels on RUclips....
Thank you so much.
Thank you for the time and energy you bring you to these videos they make everyday better
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment
I look to the sky and assume the the Midgard Serpent is what we call the Milky Way, circling the Earth. If you are at sea, the Mitgard Serpent ends in the ocean far, far away!
Or ... how about saying that the Midgard Serpent is the body of water that encircles the known world, after the post-Ice Age flooding of the Mediterranean basin ?
Great job again Jon! It's good to see how the myths developed over time!
Thank you so much for continuing to watch these videos!
The irony is that Set seems to have originally had a role similar to storm gods like Baal, but over time became identifies with traditional enemies of such gods like the Greek Typhon.
My first thought hearing this story and having seen your recent video on fighting dragons, is that this sounds like a masculine coming of age ritual. Especially given that Thor is dressed as a boy, ie that there is a secretly a powerful man inside him.
New subscriber here. I’ve been binging on Native American stories about battles between horned water serpents and the thunder bird, kills ‘em with lightning, so I was listening to this story in that context. Do you think there are parallels between these stories in your video and the Native American horned serpent stories?
Where are you finding native American mythologies?
Excellent work and very well referenced.
Jormungandr is one my personal favorites.
Just subscribed, second video I've watched and so far very well done, thanks!
Thank you for watching and subscribing, it means a lot. If you have any questions please ask away.
Fascinating, I've listened once and will listen again! An idea for this water serpent who was encircling the earth, is that this relates to the rising sea levels after the last Ice Age. European people would have witnessed the spread and growth of the coastal waters, seen land being 'eaten' by the ravishing waters, and imagined that the waters were encircling Europe and would eventually meet in a circle around them (the head taking hold of the tail).
For instance, there was the post-Ice Age flooding of the North Sea, cutting NW Europe & Scandinavia off from Britain. And the flooding of the Mediterranean basin, or at least the eastern Mediterranean which I understand was once a land valley connecting the land to the north and south. Europeans would indeed have felt surrounded by a monstrous water-serpent ... ?
Another possibility for the Midgard serpent (as well as my suggestion below for the rising coastal sea levels) is that this represents the Gulf Stream. From what I've read about later legends from the end of the Bronze age, ie. the Odyssey, the Gulf Stream appeared to be well known to the Bronze Age sailors who called it the "Ocean River". They understood it was a river in the sea and they thought that it went to the end of the world. For example, they used it for going the 'north-way' , ie. up along the coast of Norway. Maybe when they first encountered this relentless current - in the early days of sea-faring or perhaps as a new phenomenon after the Ice Age - they thought that it was a water-serpent, and were fearful of it getting longer and longer and presumed that it would eventually encircle their known world, ie. the head eating the tail ... What do you think ?!
I'm basing this "Ocean River in the Odyssey tale = the Gulf Stream" on the amazing research done by Felice Vince who has placed the Odyssey in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea at the end of the Bronze Age, when the climate was cooling. His book, "Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales" is really worth reading, makes sense of a lot of things, so much in there :)
This is great, thanks for taking us through this. I loved the engraved representations of this myth, such as the Gosforth stone. But I wonder a bit why you think that the water element was added later to the Norse myths, rather than thinking it was dropped from the eastern Vedic myths. In your video on the Ferryman, you made a convincing argument that the myth had its origin in northern Europe and got dispersed to the east, and because water & sea-faring did not have the same significance to that society as it did to the Bronze Age Norse, the water part got dropped. Couldn't the same apply here ? The Aryans who travelled east to India are thought to have brought the Veda myths with them, presumably a derivation or branch of the Norse Eddas. At least that's what I've come to understand.
The Morrigan in Irish mythology is a Triple Deity who was a war and land goddess. She is known for stealing cattle as a way to create wars. A lot of people don't think about Her connection to cattle. In one of the stories, a woman involved is transformed into a river. I cant remember details off the top of my head.
Have you ever heard the story of Lambton's worm? It's not exactly an ancient epic, but is a poem native to the Northeast of England. I find very interesting how tales have themes and tropes that morph throughout time, place, and culture. I wonder what myths and fables will be told to the children in another thousand years.
I can’t recall it, but I shall look it up! Thank you.
What about the Labors of Heracles? Hydra killing and lots of cattle motif. Similar super strong hero type as well
I think there is something missing here...
In the creation myth we see that the cattle evolves into a dragon while outsiders are being changed into a dragon in the raiding myth... It's strange that the reward and the enemy would both be serpents/dragons... unless there is some other connection between the creation stories and the raiding stories that is being missed. I'd guess it'd have to be something about having to sacrifice the hunter gatherer way of life for the agrarian way of life. At that point HG would be considered outsiders/enemies but simultaneously, farmers and cattle, so far as i remember, didn't last a very long lasting way of life until long after these stories would have been invented, but I'm sure there would have been attempts through out that period so this story could possibly be a warning and that's why both end up being dragons?
Just a thought.
Where do we see the cattle turn into a dragon, as I think I'm missing that reference. However the who serpent motif, or strictly speaking motifs are quite complex, and I hope to cover them further soon.
@@Crecganford The Cattle from the creation myth that becomes Tiamat. That would be, if I'm following correctly, the same or close to the same cattle that is stolen and retrieved in the raiding myth.
@@DurakkenThe cattle that are sacrificed in the creation myths is not necessarily the same as the cattle that are stolen and retrieved, though the two motifs can be conflated which is what appears to have happened in Mithraism.
What do you think Soma was made of ? Are the ingredients ever revealed historically? Thanks for the videos ! Super entertaining, and amazing story telling !!!! :D
Thank you for watching, and a good question. However, that answer is for another video specifically, as these drinks have a complex history which is too long to write here. But that video is in the pipeline, but not sure how long it will be before I can publish it.
I feel like there’s some parallels with the Thor Midgard serpent fishing story, and the Polynesian story of Maui fishing with his brothers and pulling up part of Hawaii/New Zealand myths. What do you think?
Interesting, and thanks for watching and your comment. I think that whilst they may have similar motifs, and similar aspects with regards boating may influence similar stories, but the reasoning behind the stories are different. So maybe not from the same original source, even if they have similarities.
Could it be that the Gobekli Tepe civilization was the common ancestor of both Mesopotamian and Indo-European myths?
After all, it spread from Anatolia to Mesopotamia and west and north east Anatolia. North east Anatolia being the the original area of proto-European civilization from which it spread west into Europe and east towards Iran and India. All these cultures seem to share myths about a sky/stormgod defeating a water snake, with a special place for cows and bulls. And all these myths have newer generations of gods defeating the older generations (Titans, Jotun/giants, and whatever Tiamat etc was).
The Gobekli Tepe people had agriculture from a very early time period (10,000bc), since sickles and signs of agriculture are found at Gobekli Tepe. They could easily be the "Annunaki/wise men that came from the north" from which the Mesopotamians claimed they learned knowledge(technology) and farming from. For hunter gatherers, it might've looked like these people were in control of nature (Be able to control huge (tamed) beasts, growing crops etc) and therefore had divine knowledge. Perhaps they were even the first god-kings. Or maybe even the mightiest families were turned into-, or later inspired a pantheon.
Anyway, they seem to have passed some of the same myths/customs to wherever they went.
Mesopotamia doesn't make use of a serpent much but the story of Marcus vs Tiamat comes to mind as does Ninurta and Anzu who isn't a serpent at all
Hey, sorry, I missed this comment when you posted it. There maybe some influence here although EEFs aren't PIE, but there is some overlap in terms of migrations, and PIE needed to get their farming knowledge somewhere. I will talk about this at some point, but it requires a lot of work making maps, but I will get there as it is my hope to have explanations for the history of Eurasian cultures and religion, from 20k years ago to 2k years ago.
@@Texasmade74 I do believe that we have enough evidence to say Tiamat was a cow in her original form, but as we know myths evolve and change with the cultural and religious landscape.
@@Crecganford Thank you for your answer.
However it would fit in many areas, given that 7500 BC the Gobekli Tepe culture and site was still in use in Anatolia and there is quite a bit of evidence pre-proto-indo-European originated in Anatolia:
"Piggot (1983) states that PIE contains words for technologies that make their first appearance in the archaeological record in the Late Neolithic, in some cases bordering on the early Bronze Age, some belonging to the oldest layers of PIE. The lexicon includes words relating to agriculture (dated to 7500 BC), stockbreeding (6500 BC), metallurgy (5500 BC), the plough (4500 BC), gold (4500 BC), domesticated horses (4000-3500 BC) and wheeled vehicles (4000-3400 BC)."
Ref : Piggott, Stuart (1983). The Earliest Wheeled Transport: From the Atlantic Coast to the Caspian Sea. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press. ISBN 978-0-80-141604-0.
According to Renfrew, the spread of Indo-European proceeded in the following steps:
"Around 6500 BC: Pre-Proto-Indo-European, in Anatolia, splits into Anatolian and Archaic Proto-Indo-European, the language of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European farmers who migrate to Europe in the initial farming dispersal. Archaic Proto-Indo-European languages occur in the Balkans (Starčevo-Körös culture), in the Danube valley (Linear Pottery culture), and possibly in the Bug-Dniestr area (Eastern Linear pottery culture).
Around 5000 BC: Archaic Proto-Indo-European splits into Northwestern Indo-European (the ancestor of Italic, Celtic, and Germanic), in the Danube valley, Balkan Proto-Indo-European (corresponding to Gimbutas' Old European culture) and Early Steppe Proto-Indo-European (the ancestor of Tocharian)...."
Ref : Renfrew, Colin (2003). "Time Depth, Convergence Theory, and Innovation in Proto-Indo-European: 'Old Europe' as a PIE Linguistic Area". In Bammesberger, Alfred; Vennemann, Theo (eds.). Languages in Prehistoric Europe. Heidelberg: Universitätsverlag Winter GmBH. pp. 17-48. ISBN 978-3-82-531449-1.
Given that most Europeans have a significant amount of Anatolian farmer DNA (and we know Gobekli Tepe people were farming over 11000 years ago). And we actually have 2 theories of origin (Anatolian and Kurgan) and we have strong evidence for both, perhaps we should not point to one and say : these are the ancestral people and culture of Europeans.
Perhaps we had the language of the Anatolians, the genetics of both, and the culture of the steppe people (Yamnaya and the later Beaker and Gravehill/Urn cultures etc) and it became one big mix.
The Sumerians took this story too, when Hadad comes down from Heaven to kill Leviathan. The Jews took it later as God himself comes down from Heaven to kill Leviathan.
Yes, that's right, and I talk about this in my Enuma Elis and Genesis videos if you're interested
Northern Eurasia do not have lightning or snakes anywhere as near as Equatorial places. So most probably the "Thunder god slaying water serpent" myth originated near the equator.
The climate of Earth has changed dramatically over the last 20k years, even the last 10k years, and so I couldn't say for sure that that is accurate. Certainly the dragon myth we currently tell is from the PIE speaking cultures, but the word Dragon has been around for 20k+ years and so myths have been around much longer than we have stories for.
@@Crecganford In archeological science there's very few things we can say for sure. That is why I used the term most probably above! Also climate near the poles, at all times of glaciation , most probably cannot produce tropical storms and heavy rain. Also what make you think, people near the equator, who's going through storms in day to day life wouldn't have a storm God but the others?
@@mytube12 I agree, there were no tropical storms near the poles, although I do prescribe to the thought that part of the Abrahamic god's make up was originally a storm god, but this storm god seems to have come from a volcano in the region, rather than a storm. It is also fascinating stuff.
@@Crecganford volcanic lightning is rare and they should have mentioned it directly since if it's the more important since it's rare! Most probably these stories or versions of these stories were brought to these regions during migration!
Concerning water serpents,
Where does Herakles battling the Hydra fit into all of this?
This is a fantastic question, and one I will be answering in the next couple of months, with a couple of videos on Dragons and Serpents. It is all to do with the change in culture forced the change in the story with the Serpent, and what the result of defeat was. But at one point in our ancestors past defeating the serpent allowed them to control water, and this is where Hydra initially came to be. I hope you stick around to watch them.
@@Crecganford Looking forward to it already!
Do you think you could cover the myth of Trito at one point ? :P
I do have a video called the First Dragon Slayer, which maybe is what you are after; ruclips.net/video/DUnha1AI3Hk/видео.html
@@Crecganford Yes yes yes absolutely. I realized after I had posted the question. Haha sorry for the dumb question, just thought I would leave it all up there so you have more overall comments, thereby influencing the youtube algorithms so that more people can hopefully see your videos !!
I think these stories are about climate change. My environmental policy professor went into a long discussion about how old stories are warnings for us in the future, about how we humans interact with Nature.
Sorry. I know I comment twice on every video. I just have thoughts. I wonder how this relates to the icons of ths Minoan snake handlers - which we know was a more matriarchal/egalitarian culture. In the places where we see snakes/dragons withholding water / treasure / life / knowledge, do we see any evidence of snake veneration? In the areas where snakes and dragons are still venerated, is it because of their isolation from the snake-slayer myth?
There are example of snake worship and sacrifice through European culture, but with geography and timelines so vast, we really do need to be specific on time and place to be able have a detailed discussion.
In this video, you say that a god can't sacrifice to himself. But isn't that exactly what it's claimed Odin did when he hanged himself on Yggdrasil to gain knowledge of the runes and things, Odin sacrificng himself to himself?
This is a great question with no quick way of answering it. I will do another video about Odin hanging, to explain more, but will ensure I answer this question in it.
I must have missed the Tiamat and bovine connection, do you have a reference to that? Through my research all of these hero and dragon stories are about the Taurid Stream bombarding the world as in the Younger Dryas Impacts Theory. Even in Gobekli Tepe there are two central monoliths surrounded by twelve smaller monoliths, one of the central figures stands on seven birds of the Pleiades and the adversary stands alongside with a bull on its chest. I think it is profound that there are two references to the constellation of Taurus to which said stream seems to emanate from in the center of the shrine that was build just after the 12,900 year old destruction of the Earth.
I have a video on the Enuma Elish, within that, and probably the video description I refer to the discovery of another copy of the 5th tablet that infers that Tiamat is a cow.
@@Crecganford - Thanks, I'll check that out. Your not buying any of that, eh? Maybe in time... A Kalevala expert, can you ask about the Kaali Craters on Saaremaa? Also at the beginning of Kalevala 210 The teal on the maidens knee " And she laid her eggs all golden, Six gold eggs she laid within it, And a seventh she laid of iron.". See what I mean? Maiden, bird, seven, and iron, four references to the Pleiades where the iron nickle meteors come from.
Runo XIV 307 'Open now thy celfts in heaven, And in all the sky thy windows, Let the iron hail fall downwards, Send thou down the frozen masses, On the mane of that good courser, On the back of Hiisi's courser.' Ukko then, the great Creator, Jumala 'mid clouds exalted, Heard and rent the air asunder, Clove in twain the vault of heaven, Scattered ice, and scattered iceblocks, Scattered down the iron hailstones, Smaller than a horse's head is, Larger than a head of man is, On the mane of that good courser, On the back of Hiisi's courser. Jumala is a superbolide not lightning.
@@bardmadsen6956 Sorry, as an aside, I'm not an expert on Globeki Tepe, and so I just don't have an informed opinion yet, although it does interest me and when I do we can have a good discussion about it :)
@@Crecganford - Cool, email so images can be attached. I might be able to help as I have found that it takes many different sources to even get a good look at it.
so what are the chances that thor is literal lightning, the bulls head is mars and Jormungandr is the tectonic plates ? so when thor comes down with the bulls head, the mountains raise .
if you look at the scar on mars it looks alot like pitting from plasma discharge.
If I'm honest, I would say it is very unlikely. Tectonic plates have only been known about for less than 100 years, and Thor means thunder as opposed to lightning. Just these issues would cast some doubt of the hypothesis.
Seeing the Mediterranean three headed god made me think of Janus. Do you think he cane from that, or from Yanu being a twin and therefore two heads?
I’m not sure of the origin of the 3-headed god. I have read some some papers about it, but I think I need to do more research before I can answer this properly.
Fair play. Thanks for the relly
I thought you didn't consider Thor a storm god? Did you change your mind?
Thor (or rather, Hymir) brings back food from the fishing trip even if he doesn't bring back the cattle. Maybe the cattle has split into two - one as the bull's head and one as the whalefish Hymir catches.
My opinion is atill the same, Thor is a sky god, but has warrior god properties, and has the storm god properties a sky god would have which aren't the same as storm gods, which tie him with other storm gods who aren't sky god. I'm not sure if that makes sense, perhaps I should do a specific video on this?
@@Crecganford Yes, please.
One of the ways my head works is that it tends to lose details of names and timescales but retains patterns of narratives and behaviours.
One of the patterns I recognised many moons ago is that many epics of warriors vs monsters appear to follow the same arc as newly created gods from chaos vs aboriginal gods or forces. In my view, most warrior myths are a retelling of the creation / god myths woven around a known or fictitious hero. Not only do the biblical tales of the Old Testament follow the same arc, so do many of the myths surrounding the life of Jesus. Considering your knowledge of these myth cycles I need hardly give specific examples... you know what they are!
What is the origin of the many-headed water serpent? You need look no further than the post-glacial maximum warming and rising sea levels. Most ancient peoples were within sight of coastlands. While locals would be aware, even if only from recent tribal history of land lost to the sea, those who travelled would become aware by of changing coastlines, of how the waters at every coastline were eating up the land, which would include grazing land. Thus loss of grazing land = loss of cattle to a many-headed encroachment / sea-serpent. What is important here is that even when the action takes place near a mountain-top, it is a water-serpent, even a sea-serpent that is the antagonist.
The sky-god or storm-god vs serpent of the deep, may simply be a reflection of the observation that a storm at sea results in high, random and very destructive wave-action, the result of the battle between the storm-god and sea-serpent. But eventually the storm abates and the sea calms as the storm-god overcomes the sea-serpent... at least temporarily. On a human level a fisherman fighting a big fish on his line or hauling in a net will see the water churned to foam.
In summary: form-out-of-chaos> elder gods > supplanted by younger gods (who now comprise the pantheon) > demi-gods of gods + mortals> warrior heroes. Similar antagonists and actions repeat on a diminishing scale, like a fractal mythologem.
(I've just made that metaphor up, how impressed am I with myself?) And that sequence leads to the inevitable conclusion that man cannot live by Mandelbrot alone.
An unrelated question recently i heard one of the many myths regarding the greek aphrodite, and i suddendly had a doubt, why hestia is seen as the first born of the olympian if aphrodite was born from uranus severed genitals by chronus, wouldn't this timeline make her older if not even totally separated from the 12 olympians?
I certainly don’t know, but if there is any ancient stories or myths that come from North America that resembles the younger dress event, or squatter man, can you please sir give us your thoughts on that. Thank you in advance
Yes, I am slowly putting together a piece on the YD event, both from a flood myth perspective, and influence on Indo European culture. But I do have some sources on NA culture, and so will happily expand it, or do a separate video. Thanks for watching :)
@@Crecganford oh please sir, do it in a separate video! You truly must be sent from the Proto Indo Arian gods
@@briananderson2219 Ok, I will do :)
I'm taking a chance that since your channel is new, you check back occasionally on older videos. So, here I go. Does evidence suggest that Africa had a separate origin for its spirituality or ideas about gods, death and fertility? Is there evidence showing an indirect influence of PIE? Did the desert severely hamper communication with Sub-Saharan Africa (apart from the east coast Sub Saharan)?
My knowledge of African culture is very very limited, although I briefly touch it when talking about American Gods in an earlier video. I'm sure there were pantheons in some parts on the continent. But it is complicated, but I do not believe it has any direct impact on PIE, nor even EEFs, but the basic concept of animism. The best place to look is the Australians who are in effect a snapshot of the people's who left Africa around 75k ago (this is a super-high-level view).
The biblical God also had the same battle with the leviathan, in the book of Job god is talking to job and explains to him how he put a hook in the jaw of leviathan God had 2 meetings with the leviathan and defeated it in the 2nd meeting cutting its throat very very similar
Why would anyone want to skip the story? That would be like having cake with no icing.
Anubis is a jackel headed deity, Set has an unknown animals head.
I have papers saying that Set had the head of a Jackal, I'm not sure if I reference them in the description, but I do have some backing to that statement.
Another question, pederasty and homosexuality is common in ancient greek myth, and zeus himself reproduce a variety of these myths then, are there any moment where zeus has had any of these relationship?
I at least never heard of these.
The cauldron would be the prize?
In the Old Norse story it was
slavs have triglav a three headed/faced god
The circle of mythology looks like annual economic activity. The government through its central bank issues currency which enters the economy. People perform or create goods/services in which money goes into their pockets and in return they pay the government back in taxes. I guess we're living in our own mythology.
That’s an interesting analogue, thank you for sharing!
Indra killed Vritta (Serpent Dragon Demon) story stoled by Christians and called Them fallen angel war
I’m wondering about the failures of Thor being historically legitimate in relation to The epic of Gilgamesh in which he fails in morality and accomplishment but ultimately becomes a hero. So while there probably is Christian bias, the opposite side of the coin is Gilgamesh as a story archetype perhaps
That's a good point, and I must say it isn't a unanimously accepted idea about UT and Thor, but it is one that has grown significantly recently. I'll see if I can find a paper on it.
@@Crecganford A very much Thor like figure is also figured in the Rigveda (Indra). A red haired stormgod with a lightning bolt weapon that rides a wagon that defeats a dragon/snake.
The Hittites had Tarhunna/Taru as sky-god wealding a lightning weapon that defeated a snake/dragon. (perhaps the name Thor comes from this name? Taru->Tar->T(h)or)
Given that the myth already existed at least 1500BC in Anatolia, India, and Sumeria, the myth might be much older.
We know the Gobekli Tepe civilization spread around the area around 10000bce. To the place where the hypotized Proto-European culture started (Anatolia and current day Georgia) from which it spread to India and Europe, and to downstream the Euphrates and Tigris and possibly introducing agriculture in Mesopotamia (sickles and signs of agriculture are found at Gobekli Tepe long before it started in Mesopotamia).
Looking at the art and artstyle, the Gobekli Tepe civilization is very European looking. With boars, dogs, ducks, bears and so on. And bulls and cows had a very special place in their religion.
I don't know if you are following a channel that is called "Survive the Jive". He did recently a very interesting video about "passing holes", which are also found in Gobekli Tepe.
So perhaps the Mesopotamian religion and the Indo-European religion share a common ancestor.
Due to their mastery over crops and very high level of technology, the people from Gobekli Tepe might've been the inspiration for the "gods/wise men that taught humanity knowledge" etc. After all, the Mesopotamians said the annunaki that taught them knowledge and farming came from the north.
All these religions also have a story about older generations (Titans, Giants, Tiamat etc) of gods that get defeated by a newer generation. And again snakes/dragons play a huge role in all mythologies including the Gobekli Tepe one. Perhaps they also inherited this from the Gobekli Tepe civilization.
You really should do research into Gobekli Tepe. I am curious what you think :)
@@mver191 Yes, a lot of the points you mention outside of Globeki Tepe I have already covered in my videos including those connections. And I will eventually get around to make a video showing human cultural and religous evolution from the Younger Dryas event to the Proto Indo Europeans to cover some of what you are saying, and it will mention Globeki Tepe and other other centers of culture in the region at the time.
@@Crecganford looking forward to it! :)
First!!!!
A three faced god in the Mediterranean reminds one of the Pashupati seal from the Indus Valley civilization: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal where there might be a link e.g. through trade from the IVC to the gulf of Persia and then from there on to the Mediterranean. Or maybe the IVC (demise?) influenced a part of what was told by Plato as the stories of the ancients - like the one on Atlantis - via Persia and Egypt onto the Mediterranean and thus Greece? (Very speculative, I know).
The academic view is that a three head god was worshipped across the Indo-Mediterranean sub-continent, and so may have stemmed from the same source or have been the "same" god, or as much as it could be.
@@Crecganford Thanks! I had missed that the connection was ‚established‘ already. What are the sources on that particular topic?
@@charly996 I'll try and dig out a paper I can refer to in the next day or two and reply here for you :)
@@Crecganford Any success in digging out that paper?
@@charly996 It was referenced in a book by Bruce Lincoln. I did re-read it. I will try and post a quote from it tomorrow. Thank you for reminding me :)
Set and Apep are not indo European and are not similar at all in any shape,form,or fashion
Correct, but I don't think I ever said they were, just the story is similar, and that we certainly know Indo European stories went back into Africa
@@Crecganford wtf no they never went into Africa
@@Crecganford Egypt was not sub Saharan but it most certainly wasn't indo European either
@@Crecganford to change the subject I would like you to cover the uniformity or non uniformity of proto indo European religions
@@Texasmade74 I didn't say the PIE went into Africa, not in any significant numbers anyway, but some of their myths did. Mark Pagel did work on this, and you can see influence in Genesis of PIE myth and Egypt myth mixing.