I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded. Cheers Matt
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ? Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose. The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north. I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
@@philippe94416 The dodecahedron gives a compact but non obvious way to encode which wheel was to be used based on the choice of which hole pair is up/down.
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@RUclipsr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
It is convincing but not conclusive. Certainly plausible but not certainly proven. I am not saying Mr. Geevan is wrong, just that there may be other theories equally plausible and we don't have a smoking gun.
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
It is a logical idea 💡 with materials explanation, but they have been found in multiple sizes so far. This means not one size fits all. Either it means specialisation if the holes are not universal or they were not consistent, which would be counter productive for general use. It was speculated they were not Roman in origin so may be locally made with Celtic metal working heritage. The Romans either used an existing technology or commissioned it, or they were there before. Expensive, so a game, a reward, a religious item, a design piece, or as suggested logically here, a cypher system? I would be more interested in the manufacture process? Mass cast produced or parts piece by piece braised together. Might help understand the frequency of use or origin, including of the metal which might also reveal the smelting location.
This is one of the more substantiated theories I've seen in regards to the Roman dodecahedrons. However, I'm far from convinced. As some have pointed out, the found dodecahedrons aren't uniform in shape, size and size of the holes, I wonder do they have to be? They aren't used like the enigma cipher kogs, it only needs to fit the disks it was made to fit when it was made. Instead of having entire sets of wheels to be made and sent out for all parties like Germany did for the enigma. Instead it might be a much more exclusive cipher where discs weren't made obsolete. Then as long as the letters on the discs match positions on both ends of communication it will work no matter the size difference of dodecahedrons and discs. Please correct me if I'm wrong
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
@@associatedblacksheepandmisfits thanks for your reply. I am not sure whether or not it would apply to the icosahedron, but a small number of my commentators believe that it would.
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
Dear Matt. I am very happy that the RUclips algorithm suggested this video to me. I knew about the dodecahedron, but never thought about it very much. Your approach explains everything I had on mind. I must say that your hypothesis is very intriguing and I highly support it. I am aware that I might experience a bookcase example of confirmation bias, but the way you explained and showed your hypothesis was really convincing and simply makes sense however I look at it. I hope your findings will be analyzed by experts in various fields and your work will be scrutinized and confirmed as the most plausible explanation we have as of 2024. I have deep respect for you, as you managed not only to figure it out, but also create a video of this quality and make it publicly available. Hats off to you! You have my deepest respect. As said previously, I must also acknowledge the mysterious ways of the RUclips algorithm, that suggested this video to me. I am very grateful that I had a chance to see it. When it comes to likes, I am very hesitant to like a video. This one is only the 2nd or 3rd video this year to receive a like from me. And it is a very well deserved one. I treat my thumbs up as a very valuable resource, that only really great videos get. Dear Mr. Matt Geevan, I am pleased to give a like to this video you made. Best wishes, Erik. It was a pleasure to watch this video and a privilege to leave this comment.
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman! A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily. An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network. It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size? Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself.... As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work? Also... what about tolerance? Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller.... or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
I don't think it is necessary for them to be of the same size. Probably older commanders, having presbyopia, wanted larger letter discs, and hence larger dodecahedra. What needs to be the same is relative position of corresponding openings on the device, and their number of outer rings, which supposedly uniquely enumerates/identifies the side on dodecahedron which left the imprint on wax seal. Each communicating station (commander) needs to have coding/decoding wheels with same sequences of signs and pegs matching corresponding openings on their own dodecahedron.
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
No flaws? He didn't explain why they bothered to make it a dodecahedron. He said why instead of other shapes but why make it a polygon at all, there's no need with this explanation. To much complexity for no gain is a pretty big red flag.
There is a flaw: the wax seal it’s too much sensibile to heat or random bumps so if the message would have been delivered with a damaged wax seal, there would have no way to decypher the text. Anyway, very interesting.
Remarkable! My congratulations on figuring out this mystery and, more to the point, admiration for the amount of time and effort it must have taken you. Your explanation appears to settle all the questions.
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome. Cheers Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
@@lubumbashi6666 You do need the object to determine the size of the hole opposite to the size of the seal. This might be where the video is wrong: The disc cylinder size intended to match is not the one that matches the seal, but the one directly opposite to it on top. That way, if all you you have is the letter, its seal and the discs, you still don't know which set of discs to use. The messages might even be short and simple enough to have several false decoy messages decipherable when randomly matching several discs to the letter, even if the decoder knows they should not match the seal.
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center. I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12). I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Really interesting Michael ! I wondered how the two solids could be related ! any chance you could send me a picture or simple sketch of what you are thinking ? my email address is matt.gevan@aol.com Cheers Matt
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
Here is some of the evidence you are looking for :- ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html and here is the the evidence that supports that :- ruclips.net/video/U1amilJffaU/видео.html
Congratulations, that is the most convincing explanation so far! Your explanation makes so much sense! And I imagine the process was very similar to your demonstration.
Very clever... very clever... My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo. Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes. Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments. Cheers Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
to be made with the 'lost wax' process a mold would be needed which splits in half to incorporate the clay internal structure (otherwise you would have a solid dodecahedron) This would leave a fine line around it. The clay internal structure could be chiseled out, today we would use special 'green sand'. The holes could be accurately cast from the internal clay dodecahedron by means of cylinders sticking out through to what would be the outside surface, these cylinders would also position the internal clay structure accurately to the outside form. To be accurate the internal structure would need a steel mold to form it. The outside form would be made of a steel mold. This would require very skilled tool makers, probably not beyond the Romans capabilities. Although the mold for the clay internal dodecahedron could be used thousands of times it would be very expensive to make, as would the outside form. Has a contact line of the mold halves been found? A very interesting post of yours which deserves the deliberation of experts.
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
I appreciate your theory. It's exciting. I have one also, that I can't disprove. Here are some questions for your theory: 1. All current dod finds have differing opening radiuses when compared to each other. A secret communication pathway would need either all or many dods/cipher wheels to be duplicates between communicators or at least have pairs with who you’re communicating with (according to your theory-let me know if I'm wrong). Statistically, duplicate dods would have been found, already. No two duplicate dods have been found to my knowledge (let me know if you know otherwise). 2. Your explanation as to why they are only found in the N/NW/Britain - The high degree of ambush probability in the find areas vs the South and Eastern areas around the Mediterranean, not needing a code machine because of using a ship for message transfer. How do you defend this more thoroughly? 3. Contrary to published work/articles, many (MANY) dods DO show signs of wear around the holes (see the Corbridge, Tongeren, Jublains, xxx, etc. dods……). My theory is based on wood polearm weapon shaft procurement by wealthy Gallic merchants with Auxiliary troop arms officers, but also includes weapon head removal/tapering. Why do you say there are no signs of wear? It's obvious on the larger hole sizes and largest opposing holes of multiple dods. 4. You said, there are 12 different sized holes in the dods. In reality, some dods have some holes that are identically sized (IOWs more than 2 holes that are exactly the same size). Why would the code designer limit the 12 code wheel combos?
thanks for your reply Richard - About 130 dodecahedrons have been found during the last 285 years, maybe another 130 dodecahedrons may be found during the next 285 years. I don't understand 'how statistically duplicate dodecahedrons would have been found' ? As a simple analogy experiment, if you took 130 pairs of socks and buried one of each pair somewhere in the Roman empire, then buried the other socks somewhere else - exactly how long would it take to find a pair? Travel across land was slow and dangerous for a variety of reasons. Boats or ships were the most secure means of transporting both goods and messages around the South and Eastern parts of the empire. Areas close to Italy were perhaps more friendly territories. I'm afraid that here is not a great deal of information that we can trust given about the Dodecahedron. The code wheels could have been double-sided, giving 24 combinations for each dodecahedron. I just showed a simple, basic arrangement. Cheers Matt
Well, first of all, recent research has shown that we now, very seriously, doubt that this is even a Roman device, as we’ve speculated for the last 100 years. It is believed to be a bit older than Roman. Few are still clinging to the old, “it’s Roman” theory.
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting ! I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use. Cheers Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
That sir is one heck of an impressive feat. It is without doubt a very realistic reason for the dodecahedrons and I really think you have cracked it. To me it is just too much of a coincidence that all these steps line up so perfectly for it not to have been their purpose. Congratulations
Thanks very much for your very kind comments , Ben ! here is some evidence from the same time in history to support it :- ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html Cheers Matt
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”. -The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing -Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle -Will not catch fire when candle burns down -Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them) -The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces -The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers. I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe. Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also. Thanks Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
@@TheAlchaemist Yes, that was one of the issues occurring to me. But I think it is a minor detail, especially if the disc is rotated after every letter as suggested above. Both encoding and decoding give continuous text with no spaces, but the Romans were accustomed to reading that.
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that! Best regards, and congratulations!
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
If someone knew that it was an object owned by a military officer but did not know its purpose, they might replicate it with identical holes. Either out of a sense of symmetry or just because it would be easier to drill all the holes the same.
In my mind, you have solved the mystery. Too many of your points are spot on. This isn’t a tiny coincidence, It’s proof. You have my sincere congratulations 🍾. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Anyone that disputes your discovery is a prat ….. (Yes, I’m outspoken and get straight to the point.)
Thanks for your reply, Jamie ! I hope you will enjoy my next video that goes live at 13:00hrs UK time today where I will show you the evidence. Cheers Matt
You've made a very compelling argument for your theory. I think you may turn out to be the colossus who broke the Roman "Enigma" machine. I love to see practical men humble the academic giants and I think you have joined the ranks of Wally Wallington, Jean-Pierre Houdin and John Harrison. This proposed solution can also offer many reasons as to why these dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes. Congratulations Mr. Geevan, I hope this changes your life for the better. Paul
The obvious problem with your hypothesis is that there is no standard set of hole sizes in known Roman dodecahedrons (or for that matter in the size of the dodecahedrons). Standard sizes would be needed for the cryptographic scheme you describe to work.
I was looking for a comment that would mention this, and here it is... You are absolutely correct and that's why I don't believe that the hypothesis presented in this video is correct. Saying "all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike" is all but admitting that this video is nothing more than wishful thinking, albeit quite clever wishful thinking. There are also several other problems with this hypothesis, but others in this comment section have addressed most of them.
@@Matt.Geevan I disagree. I would argue that very varied dodecahedrons are features of the system, not bugs. You would want as few identical ones as possible. Ideally you would want just one pair to be completely sure only your peer can decipher the message. One network should have as few participants as possible. A General would want to use one design of dodecahedron for communication with Rome, and anpother one for communication with other commanders. If the item is too standardized, the system looses reliability. The fact that all found dodecahedrons are completely different in shape supports the proposed theorey of encryption device very well. Even that 20-sided item that was found, with the tiny holes, could just be an even more complex iteration of the theory you put forward. Imagin the other way around: If it was the case, that dodecahedrons were commonly found to be of identical shape, like types of pottery vessels, we might look simply at a decorative object of originally polished bronze. We would be more likely in candle holder land. That the opposite is the case, supports your theory.
No, I don't think that is necessarily true at all. For instance, if you double the size of the dodecahedron, then no, the code wheels from the original won't fit on the larger one... But if you have double size code wheels for the larger "decoder", then all you need to do is apply a ratio on the impression of the hole in the wax seal. It would be no problem to put a caliber/slide rule on that, and then multiply it by two(or suitable ratio) - viola, you have the correct "sized" wheel. It is the sequence of the letters on the wheel which is the secret - not the size of the wheel axil that is used. Or even more simply... have wheels numbered 1-9, and have some way of encoding which sized wheel you used. The code on the wheels is the critical thing - and could even be effectively used as "one-time-cyphers". Many possibilities to making it work.
Different sizes dodecahedrons doesn't really undermine the theory at all. It just means the corresponding wheels were also different sizes. More than likely just different code networks, probably at much different times. Miniaturizing technology is nothing new.
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
You have the most compelling explanation to date. Everything makes sense, even where they've been found. Nobody knew what they were other than the living members of the Roman army who knew about their use. Once that person died, the Dodecahedron was considered as just a trinket, and buried with bodies, or lost, or tossed away accidentally. Since nobody else knew they had been used to encipher messages, the knowledge of their use disappeared. Thank you. You've earned a subscription.
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
Very plausible, and kudos for the explanation - interestingly, modern war codes (including Enigma) were split into 5-letter groups for ease of dissemination. Now one must find out why this mechanism was not universally used throughout the Roman empire - including Italy too. By geographic location of their findings, perhaps it was a device used against the Romans, not by them...
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you. For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use. Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times. Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT. "1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions. 2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction. 3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours. The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without. You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you. Have a nice day. PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning? What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
The intro with the Gladiator wheat field & Dead can Dance spoils the ending of the film EVERY TIME! If you don't want to know, don't scroll down... First, find a painting called "The Harvesters". It's an oil painting on wood completed by Pieter Bruegel the Elder in 1565. It depicts the harvest time set in a landscape, in the months of July and August or late summer. Notice the wheat? Look how tall it is! It wasn't until the "green revolution" in the 1950's that we developed high yield, much shorter wheat. Shorter wheat meant less damage from wind & rain and the yeild per acre went up too. So Romans ambling through hip height wheat mever happened.
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere. One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense. Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
I've been wondering about these mysterious Roman dodecahedrons for some years since I first became aware of their existence and this explanation is such an elegant solution that is must be right, well done sir for sussing this out, as far as I'm concerned the mystery is now solved
This theory is a very good reason to support the fact that so few of these have been found. What a GREAT way to get kids to understand very cryproc ciphers. I really desire to make one for my grandbabies... oh, the possibilities are endless
interesting notion and it would work but not convinced. to use them you would need a complete set of all of the dowels plus both disks for each face plus the dodecahedron on both ends, sender and receiver. the dodecahedrons that have been found come in various sizes and not too many have been recovered. you'd need a decent sized box to contain all of these items which if captured spoils everything. What military commander is going to drag that around with them? Seems that there would also be some historical documentation of them plus the fact that most people of this time period couldn't read at all let alone foreigners reading latin so not much need for codes although not completely unnecessary. If they used coded messages at all they more than likely would have just used scytales.Perhaps, though, they are part of this system.
Thanks for your reply jayka. To be a minimum user, you would only need the Dodecahedron, the Plaintext wheel and one code wheel. Other code wheels would be issued to users as the need dictated. Even if the box was the size of say a small microwave, there would be no problem transporting this along with the tents, carpets, furniture, beds and chairs used by the officer classes. Someone intent on accessing the code and trying to break it, would obviously have access to someone adept in reading Latin, I think. I understand that a scytale is a transposition cipher, where all the actual letters of the message are present on the belt and are limited to small messages, these were okay for the ancient Greek era. Cheers
@@Matt.Geevan The scytale rquired the same diameter stick to wrap the message around. I thought that's where you were going, that the holes would be the measure of the stick, but how would they tell which hole. I think maybe they only had a certain number of sticks, and just tried each one till a coherent message came up.
I agree with kevinurben6005 that as the theory stands it doesn't necessarily need the dodecahedron hole variety. But, I'm imagining each dodecahedron having a full set of wheels. One for each hole. These wheel sets would obviously match across all users of the system. You would then spread portions of a single message over any amount, and any variety, of wheels in a predesignated format very similar to your rotation per word protocol. Which particular wheel subset to be used at which time would be predetermined by the network and would change on a schedule. Even the wheel turn protocol could be dynamic. The layer of evolving wheel changes added to the layer of dynamic wheel turns would add enormous complexity to the system. Even if you managed to get an entire set of system wheels, without the most current predetermined wheel sequence, a trial and error hack would take forever. I don't think romans did anything half-ass. If they made an encryption system then it probably went far beyond single layer of encoding.
Thanks Kevin ! your ideas sound really interesting. As you can see from my video, I just tried to keep the coding system very simple to try and show that the theory could be possible. It could have been more complex as you suggest. Cheers Matt
Seems absolutely spot on. I would be very surprised if any competing theory can look as convincing as this. I subscribed, this is one of the bigger eye openers I have seen in a long time.
Excellent explanation. Most compelling of any I have heard. I would add though that they would probably use the coding of the "*" symbol to indicate end of word, to further hide the length of words in the message, just as you suggest they used the diamond with dot to hide double letters.
Thank you very much for your reply, Tomasz - yes, I think you are correct with this idea, as it would make the coding much more secure ! I will cover some of these ideas that commentators have suggested to improve the coding in my next video that I will be releasing in the coming weeks. I just tried to show a simple coding and de-coding system, so that people could easily understand my theory, and see how the system could work. Best Regards Matt
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly. While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility. To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness. It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes. This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
That could just mean that different code networks at different times used different sizes of wheels and dodecahedrons. You are the second person to state this and I cant see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit. They would obviously be incompatible if those code networks were unrelated and operated generations apart.
@@silvercloud-u5g Thanks very much for your reply - I am interested in your idea as to 'can't see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit' . Please could you assist me by elaborating a little. Thanks Matt
Bravo! And this also explains the use of the icosahedrons: 20 sides, and 20 essential letters in the ancient Latin alphabet. They were a simpler way of quickly using a code, but it would be easier to crack. There were unbobbled ones with letters on the faces, and then there were bobbled ones with slightly dished faces (for holding wax, so that the letters could be inscribed onto the faces, and later obliterated by fire if you wanted to inscribe new combinations. The bobbles kept the icosahedron lifted proud of the waxed faces. I feel that the icosahedrons were the prototype that inspired your dodecahedron system. The dodecahedrons vary in size, so the bobbles are not equally spaced, but as long as the central face holes were made to standard or reciprocal, corresponding sizes, your system would still work. Perhaps the wheels had 5 slots rather than holes, to make the variance in dodecahedron sizes irrelevant. I hope and trust you understand what I am trying to suggest. 👍 p.s. You deserve an award for this!
Wow cleverclogs, that all sounds great ! Your link between the icosahedron and the dodecahedron is engaging, and the slot idea is ingenious! Perhaps I can make one and demonstrate it in my next video. Cheers Matt
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later. Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer ! I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
Ingenious! I have little doubt you have nailed it. There is no doubt that the Roman army had to have had a coding/decoding device. And I am sure that the Dodecahedrons having been discovered at Roman army installations gave you the first clue of their possible use. Congratulations!
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
So you took 2 circles and rotated them 72 degress...Seems like you don't actually need the Dodecahedron . Where is the use of the device? The sealing part is just useles and the right wheel choice is weird too , much easier to pass a word password and rotate the word to agreed formula only you two know . So I do not see how this is beneficial.
Good points. Also these dodecahedrons haven't been found throughout the Roman empire. Most notably they have never been found in Rome, which would be expected if they were used as hypothesised in this video.
@@humfreee There is also nice theory about it being like a "money counter seal," you would tie string around one side to count the decimal point acooring to number of loops and then put a seal on it, so you would have the exact amout of coins in the chest. But that seems to suffer of same falacy , no need for Dodecahedron with holes to achieve this. Same falcacy as in "finger ring measuring" device.
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
There is a thing we did as kids using a wooden cotton reel, with 4 panel pins nailed in one end, and a length of wool. We called it French knitting. Basically a woven rope could be made from a simple twisted thread. Rope is amazingly useful and by weaving could increase the ability to lift heavier weights. Thin ropes could be woven into thicker ropes which were even stronger. one thing about soldiering or sailoring, is that you have a lot of time on your hands, and using something like the dodecahedron, you could make standard sized ropes, even with multiple cores for various purposes when nothing more important was happening. You could use wool, animal hair, flax or hemp, or even leather thongs and animal sinews to make strong ropes. I have even seen these things used with wire to make jewellery chains of soft metal like gold, silver, and copper.
One commenter stated that “the obvious flaw” in the theory is that none of the tetrahedrons were the same. One, all 131 examples extant have not been in the same room together to be compared. Two each “group” had their wheels and tetrahedrons custom made, else anyone with a tetrahedron would be able to read their message. Would not want the authorities reading your private mail and would not want civilians able to purchase the system able to read military messages. Three these would likely be periodically remade and old ones destroyed (the fragment comes to mind). What I would like to see is if any of the other components, now able to be identified, have been found.
I totally agree with you that the 131 dodecahedrons have not been measured accurately, so no one can draw any conclusion from this 'fact'. Totally agree with you that members of the same group had their dodecahedrons and their code wheels 'custom made' just for them to use. Yes - periodically, the wheels would be remade and old ones destroyed. How would you feel about the theory if any of the other components had been found ?
I think you have an amazing imagination and are intelligent. But I believe your unfortunately wrong. Because there have been other designed where this theory wouldn't work. And I believe there would be easier ways to do something similar.
the different size holes are for measuring dry spaghetti portions, the knobs are for testing doneness by wrapping the cooked pasta around the knobs. : ) long before slicing and dicing were part of the kitchen tool kit...
@@trimbaker1893 Not a probable explanation I’ve heard before, it’s as good as all the hundreds of other suggested uses for such a device. Did the Romans eat Spaghetti?
Matt , in addition to previous comments regarding its manufacture in replicated accurate numbers i;d like to add yet more possibly overlooked details which continue to confirm the objects sophistication. For every Dodecahedron made a unique, now melted away, hard wax version existed . Every detail added to the wax version would recover into the final bronze/ brass casting so the manufacture of the wax had to be perfect . Today its easy as the single 'master; handmade version would be immersed in silicon rubber complete with a catalyst to cure . Once cured using a scapel the now flexible rubber mould would be cut off the 'master ' and then used to form the hard wax investment version of the object . Vents, runners risers and pouring cups would be added in wax before covering with fine clay moulding material . Once dry its slowly heated up to melt out all the wax leaving space for molten metal to cast the item . Once cooled its all broken apart and the excess runners etc are cut off and the object is dressed with files and engravers etc . This process is well understood and used daily throughout industry and in jeweller making . The Romans did the same but without a flexible mould to replicate the hard wax originals . No one seems to have discussed this vital and critical hurdle which they obviously overcame as identical repeat versions exist. Making the waxes is the key to the difficulty and expense again proving the objects 'elite' function . Wax originals could have been made from 12 flat pentagons, all exactly the same size but differing in surface decoration and centre hole size. Made from uniform wax sheet and cut to shape or even moulded individually in carefully made wooden 'dies' six pairs could be assembled in hard wax and stuck together on their edges by melting the edges with a thin knife or similar tool. The knobs ,in wax , could be simply stuck onto the corners with a touch of heat to melt the contact. Without doubt the skill of the Roman metal workers, using gold and silversmithing techniques still in use today confirms without any doubt this objects 'high end ' function. One can't dismiss the technical issues that replicating scores of these accurately raised at the time and how ingenious the silver or coppersmith was who made them . I'm convinced just one workshop knocked them out , on state commission , and employed dedicated staff just making hard waxes . Making just one is hard enough, but dozens would need an organised disciplined workshop employing the best craftsmen anywhere . For this reason , again, no cheap back street deal going on here- this was a high end big city expensive order ,from the state or army etc and not for commercial trade or gain . I would love to own an original and am prepared to spend big money should one appear in auction. Jonathan UK
Great Stuff, Jonviol ! Your comments are really interesting and detailed. I mentioned to one of my commentators how making identical dodecahedrons could be done. First of all a wax master is made.(WM) The bottom half is used to make an impression in the wet casting medium (pumice or cuttlefish slurry) - (WC1) When dry, the top half of the wax master is used in the wet casting medium. - (WC2) When both are dry, WC1 and WC2 are put together to make as many identical Wax Models as are required. I think that the last one that went for public auction went for £33K !
@@Matt.Geevan Its clear that your understanding of the process is incomplete. 'First of all a wax master is made ' Yes but how ?? In two halves ? But how ? .Making scores of wax masters is a huge undertaking. How was it done ? Once one has been invested and melted out you need another wax . Just how was it made without silicon rubber as a mould ? And they were not carved out of a solid block of wax. I believe that 12 pentagons were cut from wax sheet or cast as 6 pairs in open wooden moulds. Joined with a hot spatula and knobs added then sprued up with vents runners and risers etc. These would be accurate and dead easy to make .Imagine you were making one from thick cardboard, as a toy . Mark out and cut 12 pentagons all the same size. Cut the holes then glue them all together .Not difficult and self aligning provide they are all exactly the same size. Worth thinking about as it proves , to my mind at least, that this object was critical as a tool to function as you nicely demonstrated . And yes $33 k is pricey !! Better than an E type Jag though !!!!!!!!!!!1
No - there are many ways to achieve this in the casting shop. A wax master is just a single, three dimensional solid shape of what you want the final object to look like, in one piece, then an outer cast is made in two halves in say, Plaster of Paris. The two halves are then used to make another wax replica, and another and another, and as many as you want. Then , the wax replicas are then used to make the other 'fired' casting moulds to make the dodecahedrons via the lost wax process. Once you've got the two halves of the 'fired' casting mould, it is then carved or modelled to replicate the final product as required. The insides of each part are then painted up with molten wax to form a wax layer inside each half. Once the wax layer is about say 0.3" thick, casting sprues are added to the the wax, and the two halves of the fired casting mould are put together, and the internal void is filled with casting sand. This assembly is then placed in the casting box. Then the molten bronze is poured in, which melts the wax and fills the space were the wax was ( about 0.3" thick ) After its has been left to cool, the casting mould is removed and knocked off the bronze casting. Using something like a screwdriver or gouge, the casting sand is removed from the central void. The Scrap Bronze 'risers' are cut off, and any scrap 'flash' is cut off and re-melted down for further use. The bronze casting is then 'dressed' for its final use. I would have to think twice about the 'E' Type Jag though ! Cheers Matt
That's quite an interesting theory, sounds plausible.. although, it would require all of the dodecahedrons were identical, which they weren't. Admittedly, they might be area specific ciphers, not universal to the entire army, I'd like to see some measurements of ones found near each other.
thanks for your reply - yes I would like see some detailed measurements for comparison purposes , and I think you are correct with the idea that the Dodecahedrons were area specific. Cheers
Compelling demonstration! A couple of possible objections: 1. for this system to be used among a network of a Legion's forts, each fort would need a matching encryption set. I'm not sure any two dodecahedrons are found with matching hole diameters. 2. Why should all the holes be circular? It would be a bit quicker and easier if holes were, say, square, triangular, round, pentagonal, etc. 3. A set of flat plates would be much easier to manufacture than this challenging 3D structure.
Many thanks for you reply,Steve ! I don't know if you have managed to watch my original video on the subject:- ruclips.net/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/видео.html You will see that for the system to work, the holes need to be round to allow the codewheel to keep in register with the plaintext wheel. Each Fort in a communication group would need matching Dodecahedrons as you so rightly pointed out, but not neccessarily a complete set of matching codewheels - only the codewheels that they were intended to possess by their Communication Group's Leader, whoever that was. For example, one Fort could possess the same codewheels as the three adjacent forts had, and the local cavalry groups to the east and west for example, but maybe not the cavalry group to the south, for example. The issue of the codewheels shaped the battlegroup's lines of communication, on a 'need to know' basis. As you will see from the original video, you will see that when the Dodecahedron is used to decode a message, the Dodecahedron is placed onto the Wax seal in the correct position, and its the OPPOSITE hole of the Dodecachedron that is used to proceed with the decoding process, so the 3 dimensional shapes geometry is a crucial part of the coding systems function. Cheers Matt
@@Matt.Geevan Yes, I see that circular holes do make sense now. I do think we should expect a bit more uniformity of hole dimensions. At a minimum, I'd expect pairs to be manufactured with matching hole size. But in use, pairs would be geographically separated, so perhaps not finding matching pairs would be expected. Regardless, brilliant thinking here!
@@stevec7923 Thanks very much for your interest in my theory. Yes - matching pairs or sets of Dodecahedrons were made 'centrally' then distributed as required by the communication network.
NOT SO FAST! There is at least one glaring flaw with this explanation. No two dodecahedrons were alike. If they had all been produced alike, or even in pairs, I could almost buy into this. But there was no standardization with them. That standardization would have been necessary for this theory to work in the manner described. I suppose a standard numbering system for the holes could have been employed and a means of communicating that key could have allowed an operator with a similar device to effectively decode the message. No wax seal would have been involved, however. But the other flaw with this theory is the wheels. These would have been made out of brass or bronze for the same reason the dodecahedron was metal. The wheels would have been stored with the dodecahedron as a necessary part of the device. You even showed this at the beginning of your demonstration. None have been found. With so many dodecahedrons recovered, surly a decoding wheel should have been recovered by now. I will chalk this one up as an interesting though not very likely theory. Do make more content. You made me think.
OBJECTION OVERRULED, FOR TWO REASONS: (1) You cannot state with certainty that there was no standardisation and thus that "no two dodecahedrons were alike". According to the relevant Wikipedia article, in total, only about 130 Roman bronze dodecahedrons have been found -- in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the United Kingdom, 33 of them in Roman-occupied parts of Britain. They could easily have been cast in identical pairs, or larger identical sets, using the lost-wax (French: cire perdue) technique, which is very accurate and was widely used in the Mediterranean and Northern Europe since the Bronze Age. As, according to Matt's theory, identical dodecahedrons would be kept in separate locations, this would explain why identical pairs have not yet been found. It's hard to imagine what technique other than lost-wax casting of bronze could have been used. (2) There is no logical reason why the code wheels would have to be made of metal. They could easily have been crafted from flat thin wood, papyrus or parchment (dried animal skin). Such materials would rapidly decompose in damp climates. Finally, your assertion that "a standard numbering system for the holes could have been employed" is illogical, as the use of a wax seal carrying the unique imprint of one face of the dodecahedron, as demonstrated by Matt, makes such a system redundant. The obvious advantage of the wax seal is that the recipient can immediately see that the cassette containing the encoded message that has just been handed to him by a military messenger has not been opened in transit.
@@robst247NOT SO FAST! 1a. Roman dodecahedrons range in size from 4 CM to 11 CM., information from the same Wikipedia article you quoted.There is no standardization of size. There is no standardization of the knob spacing or of the holes. There are comparison photographs and I can say with a degree of certainty from what I can see and from what I've read, that no two have been found to be exactly enough alike for the purpose of locks and keys in wax seals. 1b. Knowing who had which proposed identical unit from some garrison to a recipient out in the field or visa-versa would have been difficult, especially if there are hundreds or thousands of them. I work in logistics. I think the maintenance of this system would have been daunting. Lost and broken parts alone would have been a nightmare. 2. There is no logical reason the dodecahedrons should be made of metal. Matt's argument is for durability. Okay. That stands to reason for the code wheels as well, then. If it was quicker and easier to fabricate the wheels out of wood or ceramic then the same could be said of the dodecahedron itself. Wood is durable enough for this use. Nobody questions wood's durability for axe handles and bows. In fact, it makes more sense to me to make the big parts out of wood and the small parts out of metal or maybe ceramic especially for a military device. The military wants things as cheap as effectively possible. 3. I'm trying to help this theory here. The wax was found inside the dodecahedron, not on the knobs, and is either remnants of the casting process or perhaps from its use as a candle holder. Since the sizes are non-standard, which prohibits their use as a key for an identical lock, these dodecahedrons could still have functioned as decoder rings. The operator would have to know which corresponding face or hole size to use to know which set of code wheels to use. The wax seal is a really thoughtful idea, but not practical in the face of non-standard sizing. 4. And finally, no code wheels have ever been found. People have been buried with these things without the code wheels. I think that's like burying someone in a suit minus the pants and tie. I'm no peer, and this theory should be peer reviewed. As impressive as I think this theory is, I can punch holes in it. I don't think it would stand up to a peer review. Cheers!
@@JamesStripling 1a. There's no need for standardisation. The only requirement is for two camps that communicate with each other clandestinely to have dodecahedrons and code wheels of the same size. As identical dodecahedrons would be kept at different camps (many) miles apart, it makes perfect sense that no identical pairs have (yet) been found. 1b. There's no logistical problem. Two (or a few) communicating camps having identically sized dodecahedrons and identical code wheels presents no challenge at all. All you need per chain or subnetwork in the larger communication network is a single trustworthy craftsman, skilled in carving and casting, in one camp and a trusted officer to take one or a few dodecahedrons and one or a few sets of code wheels to another camp or a few other camps! It's easy and ingenious -- typical of Roman technology. 2. Bronze is the obvious choice for making pairs (or small sets) of identical dodecahedrons. Bronze can be cast using the lost-wax process, which is highly accurate. The wax models would be made in two halves, by pouring wax into master moulds made of soapstone or pumice, which are easy to carve with knife and/or chisel. The two wax halves of the model would then be welded together, sprues and gates would be added, then the whole assembly would be coated in several layers of silica slurry, which would dry hard. Once the final layer of silica slurry had hardened, the wax would be melted out in a kiln and molten bronze would be poured in. After the bronze had cooled and solidified, it would be hacked out of the silica, then cleaned and filed. We know that the Romans used silica slurry, as they also used silica-rich concrete for building construction. The Pantheon and the Colosseum in Rome are the most iconic examples of Roman concrete construction. 3. The wax found in dodecahedrons might indeed be left over from the lost-wax casting process. The notion that the dodecahedrons were candle-holders is silly and illogical. There are many far simpler ways of making functional or decorative candle-holders. Why would anyone go to the considerable trouble of making high-precision, geometrically near-perfect, lost-wax cast bronze dodecahedrons for such a mundane purpose? And why have most of the 133 dodecahedrons thus far unearthed (not thousands or hundreds of thousands, as you suggested) been found in or near military camps in outlying regions of the Roman empire where raids by rebels and brigands were most common? 4. There's no need to make the code wheels of metal, so why do it? The code wheels are temporary, disposable commodities -- indeed, they MUST be. Thin wooden sheets, papyrus or parchment (stretched and dried animal hide) would suffice. After code wheels had been used for a short period of time, they would be burned so that they could not fall into enemy hands and be deciphered. New code wheels using different Caesar letter substitutions would be issued fairly regularly. Because code wheels were burned, none have been found. Think of the Enigma code machines in WWII. The machines needed to be high-precision, durable, metal constructions. The master code (key) was regularly changed to reduce the risk of code-breaking by the enemy. The more you think about Matt's theory, the more it makes sense. All the other theories that you can find online are silly, fantastical and/or illogical.
@@robst247 I think Matt's theory makes sense. The artifacts found don't support it, though. Where are the code wheels? There are 12 code wheels for each dodecahedron. Lots more if whatever sufficed as military supply periodically sent out new wheel sets due to damage, loss, or security updates. Surely one would have been found. From what I recall from reading about the dodecahedrons, none exhibited any unusual wear, like dials turning on their faces or shafts rotating in the holes. As far as using the dodecahedron as a candle holder, what else would you do with it while not breaking codes, knit gloves? I just don't think this theory is a slam-dunk solution to the mystery. What foundry created these dodecahedrons? What facility created the wheels, kept up on the updates for the wheel sets and kept records of who got them and where they were? There is a library alone for that information. What facility created the message card with the correct key size for the dodecahedron in question, and kept those in stock when a message needed to be sent? And you don't think that's a logistics problem? This video demo looks great. Make that a viable military communication system with all the procurement and supply and record keeping that goes along with it. All of that information is missing. So, no, I'm not convinced.
I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded.
Cheers
Matt
Absolutely agree! Best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done!
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ?
Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose.
The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north.
I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
@@philippe94416 The dodecahedron gives a compact but non obvious way to encode which wheel was to be used based on the choice of which hole pair is up/down.
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Thanks Will, much appreciated !
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@RUclipsr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
It is convincing but not conclusive. Certainly plausible but not certainly proven. I am not saying Mr. Geevan is wrong, just that there may be other theories equally plausible and we don't have a smoking gun.
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
Thanks Ken, I just tried to piece together the information that we have
@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
It is a logical idea 💡 with materials explanation, but they have been found in multiple sizes so far. This means not one size fits all. Either it means specialisation if the holes are not universal or they were not consistent, which would be counter productive for general use.
It was speculated they were not Roman in origin so may be locally made with Celtic metal working heritage. The Romans either used an existing technology or commissioned it, or they were there before. Expensive, so a game, a reward, a religious item, a design piece, or as suggested logically here, a cypher system?
I would be more interested in the manufacture process? Mass cast produced or parts piece by piece braised together. Might help understand the frequency of use or origin, including of the metal which might also reveal the smelting location.
This is one of the more substantiated theories I've seen in regards to the Roman dodecahedrons. However, I'm far from convinced.
As some have pointed out, the found dodecahedrons aren't uniform in shape, size and size of the holes, I wonder do they have to be?
They aren't used like the enigma cipher kogs, it only needs to fit the disks it was made to fit when it was made. Instead of having entire sets of wheels to be made and sent out for all parties like Germany did for the enigma. Instead it might be a much more exclusive cipher where discs weren't made obsolete. Then as long as the letters on the discs match positions on both ends of communication it will work no matter the size difference of dodecahedrons and discs. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Great video, Matt. This is the best explanation of the purpose for the dodecahedron I've seen. Congratulations on your 1st video!
Many thanks @superstring101 !
The Roman Enigma Machine...
Cheers.
Thanks @zachariaszut - Exactly !
Perhaps they had Alanus Turingus to help.
The best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done! Youve put the pieces together that nobody else could!
Thank you for your kind reply !
@@frontenac5083 Curious to hear your arguments.
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
@@Matt.Geevanwould the same apply to Icosahedron also ?
@@associatedblacksheepandmisfits thanks for your reply. I am not sure whether or not it would apply to the icosahedron, but a small number of my commentators believe that it would.
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
Thanks James, I really appreciated your comments !
Dear Matt. I am very happy that the RUclips algorithm suggested this video to me. I knew about the dodecahedron, but never thought about it very much. Your approach explains everything I had on mind. I must say that your hypothesis is very intriguing and I highly support it. I am aware that I might experience a bookcase example of confirmation bias, but the way you explained and showed your hypothesis was really convincing and simply makes sense however I look at it. I hope your findings will be analyzed by experts in various fields and your work will be scrutinized and confirmed as the most plausible explanation we have as of 2024. I have deep respect for you, as you managed not only to figure it out, but also create a video of this quality and make it publicly available. Hats off to you! You have my deepest respect. As said previously, I must also acknowledge the mysterious ways of the RUclips algorithm, that suggested this video to me. I am very grateful that I had a chance to see it. When it comes to likes, I am very hesitant to like a video. This one is only the 2nd or 3rd video this year to receive a like from me. And it is a very well deserved one. I treat my thumbs up as a very valuable resource, that only really great videos get. Dear Mr. Matt Geevan, I am pleased to give a like to this video you made. Best wishes, Erik. It was a pleasure to watch this video and a privilege to leave this comment.
Thanks very much for your kind comments, Erik !
Well, colour me impressed! This is such a well thought out solution to the mystery and the most compelling I've seen to date.
your comments are much appreciated !
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks very much for your insight.
Cheers
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman!
A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
many thanks ! - I'm glad you liked it
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily.
An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
Thanks Ron, I really think that you've hit the nail on the head with your batch manufacturing and distribution ideas - well done !
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network.
It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size?
Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself....
As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work?
Also... what about tolerance?
Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller....
or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
I don't think it is necessary for them to be of the same size. Probably older commanders, having presbyopia, wanted larger letter discs, and hence larger dodecahedra. What needs to be the same is relative position of corresponding openings on the device, and their number of outer rings, which supposedly uniquely enumerates/identifies the side on dodecahedron which left the imprint on wax seal. Each communicating station (commander) needs to have coding/decoding wheels with same sequences of signs and pegs matching corresponding openings on their own dodecahedron.
@@lostbutfreesoulwell, they would need to be the same size for the sealing aspect to work, though not for the ecoding-decoding.
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The lack of documentation on their use is what messes with me too.....
@@lostbutfreesoul Yes - this is really frustrating, but it's all part of the mystery !
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
Yes - that is the most skillful part of the decoding - that's where I think that the rings surrounding the holes help the decoder with this process.
if indeed you owned the correct wheel.
First prize! I think you cracked it, love the down-to-earth approach. Can see no flaws yet.
Thanks very much Billy !
No flaws? He didn't explain why they bothered to make it a dodecahedron. He said why instead of other shapes but why make it a polygon at all, there's no need with this explanation. To much complexity for no gain is a pretty big red flag.
There is a flaw: the wax seal it’s too much sensibile to heat or random bumps so if the message would have been delivered with a damaged wax seal, there would have no way to decypher the text.
Anyway, very interesting.
Remarkable! My congratulations on figuring out this mystery and, more to the point, admiration for the amount of time and effort it must have taken you. Your explanation appears to settle all the questions.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Glad you enjoyed it @GemApps !
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome.
Cheers
Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
You would have to ask a Roman slave if it was too big.
absolutely, Manuel - spot on !
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
Thank you! Cheers!
Makes perfect sense with the military camp pattern of discovery, within harshly contested territories. Absolutely brilliant.
Many thanks for your comments, Wrath !
Makes no sense at all. You don't need an object like that to line up wheels.
@@lubumbashi6666 You do need the object to determine the size of the hole opposite to the size of the seal. This might be where the video is wrong: The disc cylinder size intended to match is not the one that matches the seal, but the one directly opposite to it on top. That way, if all you you have is the letter, its seal and the discs, you still don't know which set of discs to use. The messages might even be short and simple enough to have several false decoy messages decipherable when randomly matching several discs to the letter, even if the decoder knows they should not match the seal.
@@lubumbashi6666 but which wheel do you need to use ?
Great video man and honestly the best and most logical answer I’ve seen to the mystery
Thanks @fatmatt1746 - I've just tried to follow the evidence.
Cheers
Matt
That's the most illogical use I've seen for the word "logical".
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
Thanks very much for your observation !
Cheers
Matt
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center.
I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
Michael, thanks very much for your comments on my theory. Your modification ideas are really interesting !
Much appreciated !
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12).
I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Really interesting Michael ! I wondered how the two solids could be related ! any chance you could send me a picture or simple sketch of what you are thinking ?
my email address is matt.gevan@aol.com
Cheers
Matt
This totally made my evening!
many thanks !
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
Glad you enjoyed it Brian !
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
Here is some of the evidence you are looking for :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
and here is the the evidence that supports that :-
ruclips.net/video/U1amilJffaU/видео.html
Congratulations, that is the most convincing explanation so far! Your explanation makes so much sense! And I imagine the process was very similar to your demonstration.
Thank you, Matt !
Very clever... very clever...
My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo.
Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes.
Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments.
Cheers
Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
Maybe the system was abandoned
@@Deppel57 Nobody uses Nokias anymore : )
@@Deppel57 Most likely yes and replaced by another system.
to be made with the 'lost wax' process a mold would be needed which splits in half to incorporate the clay internal structure (otherwise you would have a solid dodecahedron) This would leave a fine line around it. The clay internal structure could be chiseled out, today we would use special 'green sand'. The holes could be accurately cast from the internal clay dodecahedron by means of cylinders sticking out through to what would be the outside surface, these cylinders would also position the internal clay structure accurately to the outside form. To be accurate the internal structure would need a steel mold to form it. The outside form would be made of a steel mold. This would require very skilled tool makers, probably not beyond the Romans capabilities. Although the mold for the clay internal dodecahedron could be used thousands of times it would be very expensive to make, as would the outside form. Has a contact line of the mold halves been found? A very interesting post of yours which deserves the deliberation of experts.
Fascinating and logical. Made perfect sense to me . Thanks for the video.
thanks @Valisk131 Glad you liked it!
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
Not only was I entertained but illuminated as well! Bravo, sir!
thank you !
As those decahedrons also occure here in Bavaria, I always wondered about their meaning.
I like this idea very much!
Respect for figuring that out!
Thank you very much, Lookey !
Psst its a knitting tool for gloves…why you find them in cold regions
I appreciate your theory. It's exciting. I have one also, that I can't disprove. Here are some questions for your theory:
1. All current dod finds have differing opening radiuses when compared to each other. A secret communication pathway would need either all or many dods/cipher wheels to be duplicates between communicators or at least have pairs with who you’re communicating with (according to your theory-let me know if I'm wrong). Statistically, duplicate dods would have been found, already. No two duplicate dods have been found to my knowledge (let me know if you know otherwise).
2. Your explanation as to why they are only found in the N/NW/Britain - The high degree of ambush probability in the find areas vs the South and Eastern areas around the Mediterranean, not needing a code machine because of using a ship for message transfer. How do you defend this more thoroughly?
3. Contrary to published work/articles, many (MANY) dods DO show signs of wear around the holes (see the Corbridge, Tongeren, Jublains, xxx, etc. dods……).
My theory is based on wood polearm weapon shaft procurement by wealthy Gallic merchants with Auxiliary troop arms officers, but also includes weapon head removal/tapering. Why do you say there are no signs of wear? It's obvious on the larger hole sizes and largest opposing holes of multiple dods.
4. You said, there are 12 different sized holes in the dods. In reality, some dods have some holes that are identically sized (IOWs more than 2 holes that are exactly the same size). Why would the code designer limit the 12 code wheel combos?
thanks for your reply Richard - About 130 dodecahedrons have been found during the last 285 years, maybe another 130 dodecahedrons may be found during the next 285 years. I don't understand 'how statistically duplicate dodecahedrons would have been found' ?
As a simple analogy experiment, if you took 130 pairs of socks and buried one of each pair somewhere in the Roman empire, then buried the other socks somewhere else - exactly how long would it take to find a pair?
Travel across land was slow and dangerous for a variety of reasons. Boats or ships were the most secure means of transporting both goods and messages around the South and Eastern parts of the empire.
Areas close to Italy were perhaps more friendly territories.
I'm afraid that here is not a great deal of information that we can trust given about the Dodecahedron.
The code wheels could have been double-sided, giving 24 combinations for each dodecahedron. I just showed a simple, basic arrangement.
Cheers
Matt
Well, first of all, recent research has shown that we now, very seriously, doubt that this is even a Roman device, as we’ve speculated for the last 100 years. It is believed to be a bit older than Roman. Few are still clinging to the old, “it’s Roman” theory.
Thanks for your reply, NorthernChev - If you watch at 30:09 you will see that I said exactly that.
This is great! I have been curious about these objects for years and this seems to be the most plausible explanation yet!
much appreciated, Dave !
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting !
I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use.
Cheers
Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
Very heterodox use of the word "convincing".
That sir is one heck of an impressive feat. It is without doubt a very realistic reason for the dodecahedrons and I really think you have cracked it. To me it is just too much of a coincidence that all these steps line up so perfectly for it not to have been their purpose. Congratulations
Thanks very much for your very kind comments , Ben !
here is some evidence from the same time in history to support it :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Cheers
Matt
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
Thanks very much, William - yes, that's a really interesting point !
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”.
-The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing
-Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle
-Will not catch fire when candle burns down
-Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them)
-The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces
-The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
That's okay, Roger. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers.
I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe.
Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also.
Thanks
Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
My thoughts exactly! You nailed it.
@@TheAlchaemist Yes, that was one of the issues occurring to me. But I think it is a minor detail, especially if the disc is rotated after every letter as suggested above. Both encoding and decoding give continuous text with no spaces, but the Romans were accustomed to reading that.
and why would one be found in a woman's tomb? Why would some be so adorned ?
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that!
Best regards, and congratulations!
many thanks for your comments !
Thank you. One off the bucket-list.
Cheers !
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
Thanks Alexander ! I really found your comments interesting. The icosahedron is probably a totally different subject.
Cheers
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
Thank you, much appreciated, Colin !
"To end your opponent rightly, take your encoding dodecahedron and throw it at him."
It was a knitting tool for gloves already proven
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
Absolutely Dave !
If someone knew that it was an object owned by a military officer but did not know its purpose, they might replicate it with identical holes. Either out of a sense of symmetry or just because it would be easier to drill all the holes the same.
Brilliant! Well done, sir. Highly compelling.
Glad you liked it, Alan!
In my mind, you have solved the mystery.
Too many of your points are spot on.
This isn’t a tiny coincidence, It’s proof.
You have my sincere congratulations 🍾. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Anyone that disputes your discovery is a prat …..
(Yes, I’m outspoken and get straight to the point.)
Thanks for your reply, Jamie ! I hope you will enjoy my next video that goes live at 13:00hrs UK time today where I will show you the evidence.
Cheers
Matt
I've no idea if you're right, but your theory has the merits of being simple, consistent, plausible, and fiendishly clever. Kudos, sir. tavi.
Thanks for your comments, Richard.
You've made a very compelling argument for your theory. I think you may turn out to be the colossus who broke the Roman "Enigma" machine. I love to see practical men humble the academic giants and I think you have joined the ranks of Wally Wallington, Jean-Pierre Houdin and John Harrison. This proposed solution can also offer many reasons as to why these dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes.
Congratulations Mr. Geevan, I hope this changes your life for the better. Paul
Your comments are much appreciated - many thanks !
The obvious problem with your hypothesis is that there is no standard set of hole sizes in known Roman dodecahedrons (or for that matter in the size of the dodecahedrons). Standard sizes would be needed for the cryptographic scheme you describe to work.
You are correct Ernest - all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike enough to show that this theory could work.
Cheers
Matt
I was looking for a comment that would mention this, and here it is... You are absolutely correct and that's why I don't believe that the hypothesis presented in this video is correct. Saying "all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike" is all but admitting that this video is nothing more than wishful thinking, albeit quite clever wishful thinking. There are also several other problems with this hypothesis, but others in this comment section have addressed most of them.
@@Matt.Geevan I disagree. I would argue that very varied dodecahedrons are features of the system, not bugs. You would want as few identical ones as possible. Ideally you would want just one pair to be completely sure only your peer can decipher the message. One network should have as few participants as possible. A General would want to use one design of dodecahedron for communication with Rome, and anpother one for communication with other commanders. If the item is too standardized, the system looses reliability. The fact that all found dodecahedrons are completely different in shape supports the proposed theorey of encryption device very well. Even that 20-sided item that was found, with the tiny holes, could just be an even more complex iteration of the theory you put forward.
Imagin the other way around: If it was the case, that dodecahedrons were commonly found to be of identical shape, like types of pottery vessels, we might look simply at a decorative object of originally polished bronze. We would be more likely in candle holder land. That the opposite is the case, supports your theory.
No, I don't think that is necessarily true at all.
For instance, if you double the size of the dodecahedron, then no, the code wheels from the original won't fit on the larger one...
But if you have double size code wheels for the larger "decoder", then all you need to do is apply a ratio on the impression of the hole in the wax seal.
It would be no problem to put a caliber/slide rule on that, and then multiply it by two(or suitable ratio) - viola, you have the correct "sized" wheel.
It is the sequence of the letters on the wheel which is the secret - not the size of the wheel axil that is used.
Or even more simply... have wheels numbered 1-9, and have some way of encoding which sized wheel you used.
The code on the wheels is the critical thing - and could even be effectively used as "one-time-cyphers".
Many possibilities to making it work.
Different sizes dodecahedrons doesn't really undermine the theory at all. It just means the corresponding wheels were also different sizes. More than likely just different code networks, probably at much different times. Miniaturizing technology is nothing new.
I watched Simon Whistler bang on for ages about how no one knows what these things were.
And I believed him, until now!
Well done sir, well done!
Much appreciated James !
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
Your reply is much appreciated @laurencedarabia2000 Thanks !
You have the most compelling explanation to date. Everything makes sense, even where they've been found. Nobody knew what they were other than the living members of the Roman army who knew about their use. Once that person died, the Dodecahedron was considered as just a trinket, and buried with bodies, or lost, or tossed away accidentally. Since nobody else knew they had been used to encipher messages, the knowledge of their use disappeared. Thank you. You've earned a subscription.
Thanks very much for your comments !
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
If his decoder theory is correct then only two had to match, the ones issuing orders and the one receiving them
Exactly Dagroovi ! Thank you
you are correct Maggs - we only have to find two which are the same.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
You are a very clever man. I do hope you get the full credit and are recognised as the discoverer of the answer
Thanks very much for your reply.
Absolutely great - a very convincing solution to that riddle....
Thank you @MrFrankie180
That makes perfect sense ! And it also explains why dodecahedrons are mostly found near military sites ....
Thanks very much for your reply, John !
Bravo 👏A extremely well thought out hypothesis. If this is not the true purpose of the Dodecahedron then it is a waste
Thanks @PADARM !
Very plausible, and kudos for the explanation - interestingly, modern war codes (including Enigma) were split into 5-letter groups for ease of dissemination. Now one must find out why this mechanism was not universally used throughout the Roman empire - including Italy too. By geographic location of their findings, perhaps it was a device used against the Romans, not by them...
thanks very much for your comments Steven.
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you.
For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use.
Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times.
Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT.
"1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device
Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions.
2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device
Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction.
3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism
Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
Thanks CoffeWorker - a really interesting reply !
An AI programme does not "reason".
Therefore, all these "conclusions" are bound to be flawed to begin with.
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours.
The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without.
You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you.
Have a nice day.
PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning?
What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
The intro with the Gladiator wheat field & Dead can Dance spoils the ending of the film EVERY TIME!
If you don't want to know, don't scroll down...
First, find a painting called "The Harvesters".
It's an oil painting on wood completed by Pieter Bruegel the Elder in 1565. It depicts the harvest time set in a landscape, in the months of July and August or late summer.
Notice the wheat? Look how tall it is!
It wasn't until the "green revolution" in the 1950's that we developed high yield, much shorter wheat.
Shorter wheat meant less damage from wind & rain and the yeild per acre went up too.
So Romans ambling through hip height wheat mever happened.
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
yes thanks Ron ! You are correct ! I read all about the Vigenere cipher some years ago in Simon Singh's 'The Code Book'
marvellous reading !
Cheers
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
Thanks very much for your kind comments , Bruce !
That is a very compelling hypostasis, thank you for putting it all together.
Thanks for your reply
I think he bridged that gap between hypothesis and theory!
Very convincing. Makes perfect sense. Congratulations on your discovery!
Thanks Ede
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere.
One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense.
Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
Thanks very much Bob for your comments !
I've been wondering about these mysterious Roman dodecahedrons for some years since I first became aware of their existence and this explanation is such an elegant solution that is must be right, well done sir for sussing this out, as far as I'm concerned the mystery is now solved
Your comments are much appreciated Rotax ! Thank you.
17:55 This device was known as nemorosa orbis (woody disk) , the ancient predecessor of the floppy disk
This really is the first explanation that makes sense thank you for sharing
Thanks very much, Mike !
By jove I believe you've cracked it/ Well done!
your comments are appreciated @davejob630, I just tried to follow the facts
This theory is a very good reason to support the fact that so few of these have been found. What a GREAT way to get kids to understand very cryproc ciphers. I really desire to make one for my grandbabies... oh, the possibilities are endless
Thanks for your reply !
interesting notion and it would work but not convinced. to use them you would need a complete set of all of the dowels plus both disks for each face plus the dodecahedron on both ends, sender and receiver. the dodecahedrons that have been found come in various sizes and not too many have been recovered. you'd need a decent sized box to contain all of these items which if captured spoils everything. What military commander is going to drag that around with them? Seems that there would also be some historical documentation of them plus the fact that most people of this time period couldn't read at all let alone foreigners reading latin so not much need for codes although not completely unnecessary. If they used coded messages at all they more than likely would have just used scytales.Perhaps, though, they are part of this system.
Thanks for your reply jayka. To be a minimum user, you would only need the Dodecahedron, the Plaintext wheel and one code wheel. Other code wheels would be issued to users as the need dictated. Even if the box was the size of say a small microwave, there would be no problem transporting this along with the tents, carpets, furniture, beds and chairs used by the officer classes. Someone intent on accessing the code and trying to break it, would obviously have access to someone adept in reading Latin, I think.
I understand that a scytale is a transposition cipher, where all the actual letters of the message are present on the belt and are limited to small messages, these were okay for the ancient Greek era.
Cheers
@@Matt.Geevan They found hundreds of preserved roman letters on thin sheets of wood at a fort dig.Ordinary soldiers could read and write latin
@@Matt.Geevan The scytale rquired the same diameter stick to wrap the message around. I thought that's where you were going, that the holes would be the measure of the stick, but how would they tell which hole. I think maybe they only had a certain number of sticks, and just tried each one till a coherent message came up.
I agree with kevinurben6005 that as the theory stands it doesn't necessarily need the dodecahedron hole variety. But, I'm imagining each dodecahedron having a full set of wheels. One for each hole. These wheel sets would obviously match across all users of the system. You would then spread portions of a single message over any amount, and any variety, of wheels in a predesignated format very similar to your rotation per word protocol. Which particular wheel subset to be used at which time would be predetermined by the network and would change on a schedule. Even the wheel turn protocol could be dynamic. The layer of evolving wheel changes added to the layer of dynamic wheel turns would add enormous complexity to the system. Even if you managed to get an entire set of system wheels, without the most current predetermined wheel sequence, a trial and error hack would take forever. I don't think romans did anything half-ass. If they made an encryption system then it probably went far beyond single layer of encoding.
Thanks Kevin ! your ideas sound really interesting. As you can see from my video, I just tried to keep the coding system very simple to try and show that the theory could be possible. It could have been more complex as you suggest.
Cheers
Matt
Absolutely marvellous, congratulations on your well researched, amazingly rationalised, astonishing realised discovery . .amazing...Absolutely fantastic.
Congratulations
Many thanks for your kind comments Ernie - I'm glad you enjoyed it !
Cheers
Matt
Discovery?
Did I miss something?
Seems absolutely spot on.
I would be very surprised if any competing theory can look as convincing as this.
I subscribed, this is one of the bigger eye openers I have seen in a long time.
many thanks for your kind comments and subscription, Jimbo !
Best Regards
Matt
Hi Jimbo - I think that i have found some evidence to support this:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Very Impressive presentation. I am persuaded that this was the use of these objects. Thank You.
Thank you @lynwood7205
Incredible, no words to express my feelings, you are genius...❤
Wow, thank you!
This is amazing information. Thank You for your brilliance !
Many thanks for your kind comments, Deborah !
Excellent explanation. Most compelling of any I have heard. I would add though that they would probably use the coding of the "*" symbol to indicate end of word, to further hide the length of words in the message, just as you suggest they used the diamond with dot to hide double letters.
Thank you very much for your reply, Tomasz - yes, I think you are correct with this idea, as it would make the coding much more secure !
I will cover some of these ideas that commentators have suggested to improve the coding in my next video that I will be releasing in the coming weeks.
I just tried to show a simple coding and de-coding system, so that people could easily understand my theory, and see how the system could work.
Best Regards
Matt
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly.
While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility.
To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness.
It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes.
This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
yes you are correct frenchfriar, I don't think any work has been done to measure and categorise all the dodecahedrons already found
That could just mean that different code networks at different times used different sizes of wheels and dodecahedrons. You are the second person to state this and I cant see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit. They would obviously be incompatible if those code networks were unrelated and operated generations apart.
@@silvercloud-u5g Thanks very much for your reply - I am interested in your idea as to 'can't see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit' . Please could you assist me by elaborating a little.
Thanks
Matt
Here is some evidence that I have discovered :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Your first video? Wow. I can't wait for more videos. I love the way you explain things.
Welcome aboard!
Looks like some of them took their secrets to grave. Well done.
Thanks ! @capsual2015
Bravo! And this also explains the use of the icosahedrons: 20 sides, and 20 essential letters in the ancient Latin alphabet. They were a simpler way of quickly using a code, but it would be easier to crack. There were unbobbled ones with letters on the faces, and then there were bobbled ones with slightly dished faces (for holding wax, so that the letters could be inscribed onto the faces, and later obliterated by fire if you wanted to inscribe new combinations. The bobbles kept the icosahedron lifted proud of the waxed faces. I feel that the icosahedrons were the prototype that inspired your dodecahedron system.
The dodecahedrons vary in size, so the bobbles are not equally spaced, but as long as the central face holes were made to standard or reciprocal, corresponding sizes, your system would still work. Perhaps the wheels had 5 slots rather than holes, to make the variance in dodecahedron sizes irrelevant. I hope and trust you understand what I am trying to suggest. 👍 p.s. You deserve an award for this!
Wow cleverclogs, that all sounds great ! Your link between the icosahedron and the dodecahedron is engaging, and the slot idea is ingenious! Perhaps I can make one and demonstrate it in my next video.
Cheers
Matt
Thanks for your help cleverclogs - I think I have found some evidence:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later.
Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer !
I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at
Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
Thanks @i0i
Ingenious! I have little doubt you have nailed it. There is no doubt that the Roman army had to have had a coding/decoding device. And I am sure that the Dodecahedrons having been discovered at Roman army installations gave you the first clue of their possible use. Congratulations!
Thanks very much James for your reply. Yes - that was one of the clues, but not the first clue !
Cheers
Matt
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
I'm not sure you're agreeing with most dictionaries as to the definition of the word "plausible".
Terrific piece of work sir... have puzzled this myself for a long time based on some kind of codex, now solved. Thank you.
Thank you ! if you would like to see the evidence I have discovered :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
So you took 2 circles and rotated them 72 degress...Seems like you don't actually need the Dodecahedron . Where is the use of the device? The sealing part is just useles and the right wheel choice is weird too , much easier to pass a word password and rotate the word to agreed formula only you two know . So I do not see how this is beneficial.
Good points. Also these dodecahedrons haven't been found throughout the Roman empire. Most notably they have never been found in Rome, which would be expected if they were used as hypothesised in this video.
The sealing process lets the receiver know which hole size to have facing downward when he sets up his dodeca
@@humfreee Maybe Rome was free of military action during those centuries
@@humfreee There is also nice theory about it being like a "money counter seal," you would tie string around one side to count the decimal point acooring to number of loops and then put a seal on it, so you would have the exact amout of coins in the chest. But that seems to suffer of same falacy , no need for Dodecahedron with holes to achieve this. Same falcacy as in "finger ring measuring" device.
@@mikev4621 still , you dont need the dodeca for that.
Absolutely fascinating and incredible how it was worked out.
much appreciated, Chris !
Thanks Chris - here is the evidence:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
what about the ones found without holes in the center of each face?
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
thanks for your reply - I think that the holes were drilled 'as and when' to suit the requirements of the communication system.
@@Matt.Geevan Oh, right!
That clarifies this, then.
There is a thing we did as kids using a wooden cotton reel, with 4 panel pins nailed in one end, and a length of wool. We called it French knitting. Basically a woven rope could be made from a simple twisted thread. Rope is amazingly useful and by weaving could increase the ability to lift heavier weights. Thin ropes could be woven into thicker ropes which were even stronger. one thing about soldiering or sailoring, is that you have a lot of time on your hands, and using something like the dodecahedron, you could make standard sized ropes, even with multiple cores for various purposes when nothing more important was happening. You could use wool, animal hair, flax or hemp, or even leather thongs and animal sinews to make strong ropes. I have even seen these things used with wire to make jewellery chains of soft metal like gold, silver, and copper.
Many thanks for your reply, Tika. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject.
One commenter stated that “the obvious flaw” in the theory is that none of the tetrahedrons were the same. One, all 131 examples extant have not been in the same room together to be compared. Two each “group” had their wheels and tetrahedrons custom made, else anyone with a tetrahedron would be able to read their message. Would not want the authorities reading your private mail and would not want civilians able to purchase the system able to read military messages. Three these would likely be periodically remade and old ones destroyed (the fragment comes to mind). What I would like to see is if any of the other components, now able to be identified, have been found.
I totally agree with you that the 131 dodecahedrons have not been measured accurately, so no one can draw any conclusion from this 'fact'.
Totally agree with you that members of the same group had their dodecahedrons and their code wheels 'custom made' just for them to use.
Yes - periodically, the wheels would be remade and old ones destroyed.
How would you feel about the theory if any of the other components had been found ?
I wonder if they already have been and are tucked away in archives as "unknown artifacts".@@Matt.Geevan
@@KM-fx7pz Thanks for your reply - You may very well be correct !
yes - here is the evidence I have found:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Wow! I’ll bet you’re right! Astounding!
Thanks very much for your reply.
I think you have an amazing imagination and are intelligent. But I believe your unfortunately wrong. Because there have been other designed where this theory wouldn't work. And I believe there would be easier ways to do something similar.
the different size holes are for measuring dry spaghetti portions, the knobs are for testing doneness by wrapping the cooked pasta around the knobs. : ) long before slicing and dicing were part of the kitchen tool kit...
@@ChrisBlackwood-p2w right?
@@trimbaker1893 Not a probable explanation I’ve heard before, it’s as good as all the hundreds of other suggested uses for such a device.
Did the Romans eat Spaghetti?
@@ChrisBlackwood-p2w invented the stuff I reckon...
thanks - everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject.
I don't think that the Romans invented pasta...... or pizza !
Amazingly impressive reasoning
Thanks John !
Matt , in addition to previous comments regarding its manufacture in replicated accurate numbers i;d like to add yet more possibly overlooked details which continue to confirm the objects sophistication. For every Dodecahedron made a unique, now melted away, hard wax version existed . Every detail added to the wax version would recover into the final bronze/ brass casting so the manufacture of the wax had to be perfect . Today its easy as the single 'master; handmade version would be immersed in silicon rubber complete with a catalyst to cure . Once cured using a scapel the now flexible rubber mould would be cut off the 'master ' and then used to form the hard wax investment version of the object . Vents, runners risers and pouring cups would be added in wax before covering with fine clay moulding material . Once dry its slowly heated up to melt out all the wax leaving space for molten metal to cast the item . Once cooled its all broken apart and the excess runners etc are cut off and the object is dressed with files and engravers etc . This process is well understood and used daily throughout industry and in jeweller making . The Romans did the same but without a flexible mould to replicate the hard wax originals . No one seems to have discussed this vital and critical hurdle which they obviously overcame as identical repeat versions exist. Making the waxes is the key to the difficulty and expense again proving the objects 'elite' function . Wax originals could have been made from 12 flat pentagons, all exactly the same size but differing in surface decoration and centre hole size. Made from uniform wax sheet and cut to shape or even moulded individually in carefully made wooden 'dies' six pairs could be assembled in hard wax and stuck together on their edges by melting the edges with a thin knife or similar tool. The knobs ,in wax , could be simply stuck onto the corners with a touch of heat to melt the contact. Without doubt the skill of the Roman metal workers, using gold and silversmithing techniques still in use today confirms without any doubt this objects 'high end ' function. One can't dismiss the technical issues that replicating scores of these accurately raised at the time and how ingenious the silver or coppersmith was who made them . I'm convinced just one workshop knocked them out , on state commission , and employed dedicated staff just making hard waxes . Making just one is hard enough, but dozens would need an organised disciplined workshop employing the best craftsmen anywhere . For this reason , again, no cheap back street deal going on here- this was a high end big city expensive order ,from the state or army etc and not for commercial trade or gain . I would love to own an original and am prepared to spend big money should one appear in auction. Jonathan UK
Great Stuff, Jonviol ! Your comments are really interesting and detailed.
I mentioned to one of my commentators how making identical dodecahedrons could be done.
First of all a wax master is made.(WM)
The bottom half is used to make an impression in the wet casting medium (pumice or cuttlefish slurry) - (WC1)
When dry, the top half of the wax master is used in the wet casting medium. - (WC2)
When both are dry, WC1 and WC2 are put together to make as many identical Wax Models as are required.
I think that the last one that went for public auction went for £33K !
@@Matt.Geevan Its clear that your understanding of the process is incomplete. 'First of all a wax master is made ' Yes but how ?? In two halves ? But how ? .Making scores of wax masters is a huge undertaking. How was it done ? Once one has been invested and melted out you need another wax . Just how was it made without silicon rubber as a mould ? And they were not carved out of a solid block of wax. I believe that 12 pentagons were cut from wax sheet or cast as 6 pairs in open wooden moulds. Joined with a hot spatula and knobs added then sprued up with vents runners and risers etc. These would be accurate and dead easy to make .Imagine you were making one from thick cardboard, as a toy . Mark out and cut 12 pentagons all the same size. Cut the holes then glue them all together .Not difficult and self aligning provide they are all exactly the same size. Worth thinking about as it proves , to my mind at least, that this object was critical as a tool to function as you nicely demonstrated . And yes $33 k is pricey !! Better than an E type Jag though !!!!!!!!!!!1
No - there are many ways to achieve this in the casting shop. A wax master is just a single, three dimensional solid shape of what you want the final object to look like, in one piece, then an outer cast is made in two halves in say, Plaster of Paris.
The two halves are then used to make another wax replica, and another and another, and as many as you want.
Then , the wax replicas are then used to make the other 'fired' casting moulds to make the dodecahedrons via the lost wax process.
Once you've got the two halves of the 'fired' casting mould, it is then carved or modelled to replicate the final product as required.
The insides of each part are then painted up with molten wax to
form a wax layer inside each half.
Once the wax layer is about say 0.3" thick, casting sprues are added to the the wax, and the two halves of the fired casting mould are put together, and the internal void is filled with casting sand.
This assembly is then placed in the casting box.
Then the molten bronze is poured in, which melts the wax and fills the space were the wax was ( about 0.3" thick )
After its has been left to cool, the casting mould is removed and knocked off the bronze casting.
Using something like a screwdriver or gouge, the casting sand is removed from the central void.
The Scrap Bronze 'risers' are cut off, and any scrap 'flash' is cut off and re-melted down for further use.
The bronze casting is then 'dressed' for its final use.
I would have to think twice about the 'E' Type Jag though !
Cheers
Matt
That's quite an interesting theory, sounds plausible.. although, it would require all of the dodecahedrons were identical, which they weren't. Admittedly, they might be area specific ciphers, not universal to the entire army, I'd like to see some measurements of ones found near each other.
thanks for your reply - yes I would like see some detailed measurements for comparison purposes , and I think you are correct with the idea that the Dodecahedrons were area specific.
Cheers
@@frontenac5083 Not a native English speaker, are you?
And 'era' specific - technology may have advanced .That would explain why such valuable devices have been found abandoned in such numbers
Compelling demonstration! A couple of possible objections: 1. for this system to be used among a network of a Legion's forts, each fort would need a matching encryption set. I'm not sure any two dodecahedrons are found with matching hole diameters. 2. Why should all the holes be circular? It would be a bit quicker and easier if holes were, say, square, triangular, round, pentagonal, etc. 3. A set of flat plates would be much easier to manufacture than this challenging 3D structure.
Many thanks for you reply,Steve ! I don't know if you have managed to watch my original video on the subject:-
ruclips.net/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/видео.html
You will see that for the system to work, the holes need to be round to allow the codewheel to keep in register with the plaintext wheel.
Each Fort in a communication group would need matching Dodecahedrons as you so rightly pointed out, but not neccessarily a complete set of matching codewheels - only the codewheels that they were intended to possess by their Communication Group's Leader, whoever that was. For example, one Fort could possess the same codewheels as the three adjacent forts had, and the local cavalry groups to the east and west for example, but maybe not the cavalry group to the south, for example. The issue of the codewheels shaped the battlegroup's lines of communication, on a 'need to know' basis.
As you will see from the original video, you will see that when the Dodecahedron is used to decode a message, the Dodecahedron is placed onto the Wax seal in the correct position, and its the OPPOSITE hole of the Dodecachedron that is used to proceed with the decoding process, so the 3 dimensional shapes geometry is a crucial part of the coding systems function.
Cheers
Matt
@@Matt.Geevan Yes, I see that circular holes do make sense now. I do think we should expect a bit more uniformity of hole dimensions. At a minimum, I'd expect pairs to be manufactured with matching hole size. But in use, pairs would be geographically separated, so perhaps not finding matching pairs would be expected.
Regardless, brilliant thinking here!
@@stevec7923 Thanks very much for your interest in my theory.
Yes - matching pairs or sets of Dodecahedrons were made 'centrally' then distributed as required by the communication network.
NOT SO FAST! There is at least one glaring flaw with this explanation. No two dodecahedrons were alike. If they had all been produced alike, or even in pairs, I could almost buy into this. But there was no standardization with them. That standardization would have been necessary for this theory to work in the manner described. I suppose a standard numbering system for the holes could have been employed and a means of communicating that key could have allowed an operator with a similar device to effectively decode the message. No wax seal would have been involved, however.
But the other flaw with this theory is the wheels. These would have been made out of brass or bronze for the same reason the dodecahedron was metal. The wheels would have been stored with the dodecahedron as a necessary part of the device. You even showed this at the beginning of your demonstration. None have been found. With so many dodecahedrons recovered, surly a decoding wheel should have been recovered by now.
I will chalk this one up as an interesting though not very likely theory.
Do make more content. You made me think.
"No two dodecahedrons were alike."
Agreed.
There's also a lot of easier ways to make a cypher decoder.
OBJECTION OVERRULED, FOR TWO REASONS: (1) You cannot state with certainty that there was no standardisation and thus that "no two dodecahedrons were alike". According to the relevant Wikipedia article, in total, only about 130 Roman bronze dodecahedrons have been found -- in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the United Kingdom, 33 of them in Roman-occupied parts of Britain. They could easily have been cast in identical pairs, or larger identical sets, using the lost-wax (French: cire perdue) technique, which is very accurate and was widely used in the Mediterranean and Northern Europe since the Bronze Age. As, according to Matt's theory, identical dodecahedrons would be kept in separate locations, this would explain why identical pairs have not yet been found. It's hard to imagine what technique other than lost-wax casting of bronze could have been used.
(2) There is no logical reason why the code wheels would have to be made of metal. They could easily have been crafted from flat thin wood, papyrus or parchment (dried animal skin). Such materials would rapidly decompose in damp climates.
Finally, your assertion that "a standard numbering system for the holes could have been employed" is illogical, as the use of a wax seal carrying the unique imprint of one face of the dodecahedron, as demonstrated by Matt, makes such a system redundant. The obvious advantage of the wax seal is that the recipient can immediately see that the cassette containing the encoded message that has just been handed to him by a military messenger has not been opened in transit.
@@robst247NOT SO FAST! 1a. Roman dodecahedrons range in size from 4 CM to 11 CM., information from the same Wikipedia article you quoted.There is no standardization of size. There is no standardization of the knob spacing or of the holes. There are comparison photographs and I can say with a degree of certainty from what I can see and from what I've read, that no two have been found to be exactly enough alike for the purpose of locks and keys in wax seals.
1b. Knowing who had which proposed identical unit from some garrison to a recipient out in the field or visa-versa would have been difficult, especially if there are hundreds or thousands of them. I work in logistics. I think the maintenance of this system would have been daunting. Lost and broken parts alone would have been a nightmare.
2. There is no logical reason the dodecahedrons should be made of metal. Matt's argument is for durability. Okay. That stands to reason for the code wheels as well, then. If it was quicker and easier to fabricate the wheels out of wood or ceramic then the same could be said of the dodecahedron itself. Wood is durable enough for this use. Nobody questions wood's durability for axe handles and bows. In fact, it makes more sense to me to make the big parts out of wood and the small parts out of metal or maybe ceramic especially for a military device. The military wants things as cheap as effectively possible.
3. I'm trying to help this theory here. The wax was found inside the dodecahedron, not on the knobs, and is either remnants of the casting process or perhaps from its use as a candle holder. Since the sizes are non-standard, which prohibits their use as a key for an identical lock, these dodecahedrons could still have functioned as decoder rings. The operator would have to know which corresponding face or hole size to use to know which set of code wheels to use. The wax seal is a really thoughtful idea, but not practical in the face of non-standard sizing.
4. And finally, no code wheels have ever been found. People have been buried with these things without the code wheels. I think that's like burying someone in a suit minus the pants and tie. I'm no peer, and this theory should be peer reviewed. As impressive as I think this theory is, I can punch holes in it. I don't think it would stand up to a peer review.
Cheers!
@@JamesStripling 1a. There's no need for standardisation. The only requirement is for two camps that communicate with each other clandestinely to have dodecahedrons and code wheels of the same size. As identical dodecahedrons would be kept at different camps (many) miles apart, it makes perfect sense that no identical pairs have (yet) been found.
1b. There's no logistical problem. Two (or a few) communicating camps having identically sized dodecahedrons and identical code wheels presents no challenge at all. All you need per chain or subnetwork in the larger communication network is a single trustworthy craftsman, skilled in carving and casting, in one camp and a trusted officer to take one or a few dodecahedrons and one or a few sets of code wheels to another camp or a few other camps! It's easy and ingenious -- typical of Roman technology.
2. Bronze is the obvious choice for making pairs (or small sets) of identical dodecahedrons. Bronze can be cast using the lost-wax process, which is highly accurate. The wax models would be made in two halves, by pouring wax into master moulds made of soapstone or pumice, which are easy to carve with knife and/or chisel. The two wax halves of the model would then be welded together, sprues and gates would be added, then the whole assembly would be coated in several layers of silica slurry, which would dry hard. Once the final layer of silica slurry had hardened, the wax would be melted out in a kiln and molten bronze would be poured in. After the bronze had cooled and solidified, it would be hacked out of the silica, then cleaned and filed.
We know that the Romans used silica slurry, as they also used silica-rich concrete for building construction. The Pantheon and the Colosseum in Rome are the most iconic examples of Roman concrete construction.
3. The wax found in dodecahedrons might indeed be left over from the lost-wax casting process.
The notion that the dodecahedrons were candle-holders is silly and illogical. There are many far simpler ways of making functional or decorative candle-holders. Why would anyone go to the considerable trouble of making high-precision, geometrically near-perfect, lost-wax cast bronze dodecahedrons for such a mundane purpose? And why have most of the 133 dodecahedrons thus far unearthed (not thousands or hundreds of thousands, as you suggested) been found in or near military camps in outlying regions of the Roman empire where raids by rebels and brigands were most common?
4. There's no need to make the code wheels of metal, so why do it? The code wheels are temporary, disposable commodities -- indeed, they MUST be. Thin wooden sheets, papyrus or parchment (stretched and dried animal hide) would suffice. After code wheels had been used for a short period of time, they would be burned so that they could not fall into enemy hands and be deciphered. New code wheels using different Caesar letter substitutions would be issued fairly regularly. Because code wheels were burned, none have been found.
Think of the Enigma code machines in WWII. The machines needed to be high-precision, durable, metal constructions. The master code (key) was regularly changed to reduce the risk of code-breaking by the enemy.
The more you think about Matt's theory, the more it makes sense. All the other theories that you can find online are silly, fantastical and/or illogical.
@@robst247 I think Matt's theory makes sense. The artifacts found don't support it, though. Where are the code wheels? There are 12 code wheels for each dodecahedron. Lots more if whatever sufficed as military supply periodically sent out new wheel sets due to damage, loss, or security updates. Surely one would have been found. From what I recall from reading about the dodecahedrons, none exhibited any unusual wear, like dials turning on their faces or shafts rotating in the holes. As far as using the dodecahedron as a candle holder, what else would you do with it while not breaking codes, knit gloves? I just don't think this theory is a slam-dunk solution to the mystery. What foundry created these dodecahedrons? What facility created the wheels, kept up on the updates for the wheel sets and kept records of who got them and where they were? There is a library alone for that information. What facility created the message card with the correct key size for the dodecahedron in question, and kept those in stock when a message needed to be sent? And you don't think that's a logistics problem? This video demo looks great. Make that a viable military communication system with all the procurement and supply and record keeping that goes along with it. All of that information is missing.
So, no, I'm not convinced.
You Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Nicely done.
Thank you kindly !