I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded. Cheers Matt
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ? Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose. The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north. I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
@@philippe94416 The dodecahedron gives a compact but non obvious way to encode which wheel was to be used based on the choice of which hole pair is up/down.
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@RUclipsr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
It is convincing but not conclusive. Certainly plausible but not certainly proven. I am not saying Mr. Geevan is wrong, just that there may be other theories equally plausible and we don't have a smoking gun.
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
@@associatedblacksheepandmisfits thanks for your reply. I am not sure whether or not it would apply to the icosahedron, but a small number of my commentators believe that it would.
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
Except: 1) They are not particularly associated with military sites and 2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
Dear Matt. I am very happy that the RUclips algorithm suggested this video to me. I knew about the dodecahedron, but never thought about it very much. Your approach explains everything I had on mind. I must say that your hypothesis is very intriguing and I highly support it. I am aware that I might experience a bookcase example of confirmation bias, but the way you explained and showed your hypothesis was really convincing and simply makes sense however I look at it. I hope your findings will be analyzed by experts in various fields and your work will be scrutinized and confirmed as the most plausible explanation we have as of 2024. I have deep respect for you, as you managed not only to figure it out, but also create a video of this quality and make it publicly available. Hats off to you! You have my deepest respect. As said previously, I must also acknowledge the mysterious ways of the RUclips algorithm, that suggested this video to me. I am very grateful that I had a chance to see it. When it comes to likes, I am very hesitant to like a video. This one is only the 2nd or 3rd video this year to receive a like from me. And it is a very well deserved one. I treat my thumbs up as a very valuable resource, that only really great videos get. Dear Mr. Matt Geevan, I am pleased to give a like to this video you made. Best wishes, Erik. It was a pleasure to watch this video and a privilege to leave this comment.
Except: 1) They are not particularly associated with military sites and 2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
No flaws? He didn't explain why they bothered to make it a dodecahedron. He said why instead of other shapes but why make it a polygon at all, there's no need with this explanation. To much complexity for no gain is a pretty big red flag.
There is a flaw: the wax seal it’s too much sensibile to heat or random bumps so if the message would have been delivered with a damaged wax seal, there would have no way to decypher the text. Anyway, very interesting.
Except: 1) They are not particularly associated with military sites and 2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman! A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily. An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
Except: 1) They are not particularly associated with military sites and 2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
Congratulations, that is the most convincing explanation so far! Your explanation makes so much sense! And I imagine the process was very similar to your demonstration.
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
It is a logical idea 💡 with materials explanation, but they have been found in multiple sizes so far. This means not one size fits all. Either it means specialisation if the holes are not universal or they were not consistent, which would be counter productive for general use. It was speculated they were not Roman in origin so may be locally made with Celtic metal working heritage. The Romans either used an existing technology or commissioned it, or they were there before. Expensive, so a game, a reward, a religious item, a design piece, or as suggested logically here, a cypher system? I would be more interested in the manufacture process? Mass cast produced or parts piece by piece braised together. Might help understand the frequency of use or origin, including of the metal which might also reveal the smelting location.
This is one of the more substantiated theories I've seen in regards to the Roman dodecahedrons. However, I'm far from convinced. As some have pointed out, the found dodecahedrons aren't uniform in shape, size and size of the holes, I wonder do they have to be? They aren't used like the enigma cipher kogs, it only needs to fit the disks it was made to fit when it was made. Instead of having entire sets of wheels to be made and sent out for all parties like Germany did for the enigma. Instead it might be a much more exclusive cipher where discs weren't made obsolete. Then as long as the letters on the discs match positions on both ends of communication it will work no matter the size difference of dodecahedrons and discs. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network. It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size? Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself.... As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work? Also... what about tolerance? Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller.... or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
I don't think it is necessary for them to be of the same size. Probably older commanders, having presbyopia, wanted larger letter discs, and hence larger dodecahedra. What needs to be the same is relative position of corresponding openings on the device, and their number of outer rings, which supposedly uniquely enumerates/identifies the side on dodecahedron which left the imprint on wax seal. Each communicating station (commander) needs to have coding/decoding wheels with same sequences of signs and pegs matching corresponding openings on their own dodecahedron.
I think your theory is perfectly laid out and makes a lot of sense. Also it addresses the question of why such an elaborate and expensive (for the time), object actually existed. It would be the contemporary equivalent of a military grade communication system, unavailable and unknown in its workings for the layman.
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
Except: 1) They are not particularly associated with military sites and 2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
@@lubumbashi6666 You do need the object to determine the size of the hole opposite to the size of the seal. This might be where the video is wrong: The disc cylinder size intended to match is not the one that matches the seal, but the one directly opposite to it on top. That way, if all you you have is the letter, its seal and the discs, you still don't know which set of discs to use. The messages might even be short and simple enough to have several false decoy messages decipherable when randomly matching several discs to the letter, even if the decoder knows they should not match the seal.
Except: 1) They are not particularly associated with military sites and 2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome. Cheers Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
Interesting theory with at least one drawback. For your theory to work all recipients of coded messages would have to have identical sized dodecahedrons. From what I have read, no two of the found dodecahedrons are even closely matched in size or hole sizes. Have any metal casters tried to cast a dodecahedron? I have done a few small pieces of lost wax casting and would balk at trying to cast something so intricate.
Thanks for your comment, Alan ! Yes - you are correct, the Dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes because, for example, one has been found from 159 AD and another on has been found from say, 259 AD. That is, the two have been found from different series that were made 100 years apart from each other, so we are getting two different 'snapshots' in the historical timeline Yes - metal casters have made dodecahedrons - ruclips.net/video/KpTDHYRxklA/видео.html
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
Here is some of the evidence you are looking for :- ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html and here is the the evidence that supports that :- ruclips.net/video/U1amilJffaU/видео.html
That sir is one heck of an impressive feat. It is without doubt a very realistic reason for the dodecahedrons and I really think you have cracked it. To me it is just too much of a coincidence that all these steps line up so perfectly for it not to have been their purpose. Congratulations
Thanks very much for your very kind comments , Ben ! here is some evidence from the same time in history to support it :- ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html Cheers Matt
I first encountered this enigma as a side note and as an illustration n an archeological text entitled "Gods Graves and Scholars" in 1952 or 1953 chronicling the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb in Egypt by Howard Carter. It belonged to my mother who was an expert in ancient writing who found it baffling and pointed it out to me.. I have been puzzled by it all my life and have spent much time musing and pondering over the riddle it presents over all these years. Now at last many years later I have stumbled across your brilliant and detailed unravelling of this mystery. I am very impressed and delighted. I cannot begin to imagine the effort you must have expended and the time taken to solve it. I am grateful to you. In memory of my mother it is very meaningful to me, wonderful, thank you very much. I am immensely pleased.
@@Matt.Geevan I have had an idea ! My lightbulb has gone on....I must share it with you. I have not had the opportunity to physically examine a bronze dodecahedron - but it occurs to me that the rings may have added significance apart from hole enlarging potential - being - a coded signal for the recipient indicating degree of urgency or danger for example - in advance of opening and decoding. The wax impression on the received enclosed tablet would at a glance indicate classification equivalent to the modern confidential or secret or uk eyes only or top secret or ultra markings on envelopes containing official classified content. Has each hole have the same number of rings or do they vary ?
@@Matt.Geevan Another observation:- It seems that they were not strictly speaking "standardised". From images I have looked at it seems some are larger, others smaller, others even decorated. This would imply specialisation and the possibility they were cast and issued in matched pairs or triples to be used in specific information chains, not unlike the "need to know" barriers imposed in modernity to maintain secrecy in protected information linkages. It gets progressively more and more intriguing.
Yes Albert - I think you are correct ! I believe that they were manufactured in small sets for each specific Communication Group as required. This kept the coding secure within each Comms Group
Seems absolutely spot on. I would be very surprised if any competing theory can look as convincing as this. I subscribed, this is one of the bigger eye openers I have seen in a long time.
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers. I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe. Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also. Thanks Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
@@TheAlchaemist Yes, that was one of the issues occurring to me. But I think it is a minor detail, especially if the disc is rotated after every letter as suggested above. Both encoding and decoding give continuous text with no spaces, but the Romans were accustomed to reading that.
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
I appreciate your theory. It's exciting. I have one also, that I can't disprove. Here are some questions for your theory: 1. All current dod finds have differing opening radiuses when compared to each other. A secret communication pathway would need either all or many dods/cipher wheels to be duplicates between communicators or at least have pairs with who you’re communicating with (according to your theory-let me know if I'm wrong). Statistically, duplicate dods would have been found, already. No two duplicate dods have been found to my knowledge (let me know if you know otherwise). 2. Your explanation as to why they are only found in the N/NW/Britain - The high degree of ambush probability in the find areas vs the South and Eastern areas around the Mediterranean, not needing a code machine because of using a ship for message transfer. How do you defend this more thoroughly? 3. Contrary to published work/articles, many (MANY) dods DO show signs of wear around the holes (see the Corbridge, Tongeren, Jublains, xxx, etc. dods……). My theory is based on wood polearm weapon shaft procurement by wealthy Gallic merchants with Auxiliary troop arms officers, but also includes weapon head removal/tapering. Why do you say there are no signs of wear? It's obvious on the larger hole sizes and largest opposing holes of multiple dods. 4. You said, there are 12 different sized holes in the dods. In reality, some dods have some holes that are identically sized (IOWs more than 2 holes that are exactly the same size). Why would the code designer limit the 12 code wheel combos?
thanks for your reply Richard - About 130 dodecahedrons have been found during the last 285 years, maybe another 130 dodecahedrons may be found during the next 285 years. I don't understand 'how statistically duplicate dodecahedrons would have been found' ? As a simple analogy experiment, if you took 130 pairs of socks and buried one of each pair somewhere in the Roman empire, then buried the other socks somewhere else - exactly how long would it take to find a pair? Travel across land was slow and dangerous for a variety of reasons. Boats or ships were the most secure means of transporting both goods and messages around the South and Eastern parts of the empire. Areas close to Italy were perhaps more friendly territories. I'm afraid that here is not a great deal of information that we can trust given about the Dodecahedron. The code wheels could have been double-sided, giving 24 combinations for each dodecahedron. I just showed a simple, basic arrangement. Cheers Matt
@Matt.Geevan brings up a good point. How about another? The hedrons were effective tools used to knit the fingers in gloves in medieval Europe. The nobs made for a useful hold on the current level of weave on the finger. As the weave progressed, the length could be tested by putting a finger into the hole. While that may not be the original purpose, it became a common purpose. The holes accommodated different sized finger covers that fit like - are you ready for it? - a glove!
@@The_Real_Danger_Mouse Matt's thoughts are well received (and entertaining), but there would have been some standardization of some aspects of the dods (or pairs found...not one pair was found; it's obvious they were created in situ...this is VERY IMPORTANT for all our you that are trying to figure this out for yourselves). Also, they would have been found in a wider area of the realm. In addition, we can use a loo / toilet seat for a shoe, for a really big horse foot, but that's not the point. There's no material evidence of Roman knitting in this period. I have studied all the hole sizes (of all known dod finds) and some would not accommodate this use. Also, French knitting is not based on a hole size....it's based on the # of pins. I appreciate your comment. If you have any questions, let me know.
@@richardallday7387 I did not say they were made for knitting, only that hedrons found were employed as tools for knitting. With a lack of texts and art references, only hypotheticals can be offered.
Thanks very much for your comments, Mark ! You can see the Evidence that I have discovered to support my theory at ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/jin5fVedzqM/видео.html Cheers Matt
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center. I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12). I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Really interesting Michael ! I wondered how the two solids could be related ! any chance you could send me a picture or simple sketch of what you are thinking ? my email address is matt.gevan@aol.com Cheers Matt
You do realize that for this to actually work, both sender and receiver must be in possession of the exact same dodecahedron. Plus as yet, no coding wheels have been found. Nice theory though.
The coding wheels would have been made out of light material which is easily and quickly disposable if necessary, good opsec would be to destroy those things regularly as to not leave dangerous loose ends.
Thanks for your reply Gary, - yes, you are correct - sender and receiver both need same dodecahedrons. No coding wheels have been found yet. Cheers Matt
Absolute genius! A quick question, have any of the decoding wheels ever been found? I think there's another video here for you. How you worked this out! It really is an astonishing piece of work.
You have the most compelling explanation to date. Everything makes sense, even where they've been found. Nobody knew what they were other than the living members of the Roman army who knew about their use. Once that person died, the Dodecahedron was considered as just a trinket, and buried with bodies, or lost, or tossed away accidentally. Since nobody else knew they had been used to encipher messages, the knowledge of their use disappeared. Thank you. You've earned a subscription.
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
If someone knew that it was an object owned by a military officer but did not know its purpose, they might replicate it with identical holes. Either out of a sense of symmetry or just because it would be easier to drill all the holes the same.
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that! Best regards, and congratulations!
I'd like to add some further details confirming the technical sophistication of this item's manufacture . Lost Wax casting or investment casting enables a 3D form to be produced in one pour as the copy wax is melted out of the moulded plaster , or similar material into which the wax was immersed leaving the accurate void to be filled . This filling has to be done quickly into a hot mould to prevent 'freezing' of the molten metal . It must flow into every void and expel all the air so sprues and runners and risers and pouring cups are added, in wax, prior to investing . It is a hugely skilled technique to guarantee a complete fill every cast, made more difficult as this thing is relatively thin skeletal monocoque . For this reason alone and anyone who is experienced in investment casting will agree, without modern centrifuges and propane gas torches to keep everything up to temperature , these Roman jobbies are of the very highest standard skill wise and would have been manically expensive to make . This confirms that they are not a casual toy or random art object-- that they had a hugely important function- and without doubt the only organisation with the cash to get these made ,in numbers , was the State . AS a cipher tool with code wheels now lost, its function is so obvious . Why did it take so long to find out ? Are the Geevan's unique ??
@jonviol - I've been really impressed by your extensive research in the subject of the Dodecahedron's manufacturing process ! I totally agree with your conclusion that they could have only been manufactured in quantities by the State. This is a great piece of work - Well Done !
@@Matt.Geevan Yes , not really extensive just recalling 7 years working in the Jewellery Quarter Birmingham mass producing gold and silver objects using investment casting techniques exactly the same as the technique which this almost 2000 y o dodecahedron demonstrates . Every aspect requires a full control of materials and understanding of how heat alters behaviour in manufacturing a final solid object and minimising failed pours- a total waste of all the effort . Making the waxes is so so difficult and historians never seem to grasp its preliminary expenditure of time and think only about the final cast cold finished result. If hundreds of these were produced, most likely as 130 have so far been found so far , we have proof of a large organised system working harmoniously in an intelligent practical environment . Sourcing clean copper, tin , zinc, fluxes, powdered calcium, charcoal and air pumps , waxes and thickeners , hand tools ,saws files etc ,is no different then than today . Scores of people, no phones, delivery vans, electric lights and so on . But we have electricity , silicon rubbers for mould making and high carbon steel for tool making . The deeper I examine this matter the greater is the conviction that we have here an example of State led mass production predating the industrial revolution by at least 1000 years and the how many different trades required to work together for a successful solution to a dedicated need . No art object this, no toy or coin sampler- hugely sophisticated in every possible way . .Jonathan
There is a thing we did as kids using a wooden cotton reel, with 4 panel pins nailed in one end, and a length of wool. We called it French knitting. Basically a woven rope could be made from a simple twisted thread. Rope is amazingly useful and by weaving could increase the ability to lift heavier weights. Thin ropes could be woven into thicker ropes which were even stronger. one thing about soldiering or sailoring, is that you have a lot of time on your hands, and using something like the dodecahedron, you could make standard sized ropes, even with multiple cores for various purposes when nothing more important was happening. You could use wool, animal hair, flax or hemp, or even leather thongs and animal sinews to make strong ropes. I have even seen these things used with wire to make jewellery chains of soft metal like gold, silver, and copper.
Very clever... very clever... My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo. Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes. Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments. Cheers Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
to be made with the 'lost wax' process a mold would be needed which splits in half to incorporate the clay internal structure (otherwise you would have a solid dodecahedron) This would leave a fine line around it. The clay internal structure could be chiseled out, today we would use special 'green sand'. The holes could be accurately cast from the internal clay dodecahedron by means of cylinders sticking out through to what would be the outside surface, these cylinders would also position the internal clay structure accurately to the outside form. To be accurate the internal structure would need a steel mold to form it. The outside form would be made of a steel mold. This would require very skilled tool makers, probably not beyond the Romans capabilities. Although the mold for the clay internal dodecahedron could be used thousands of times it would be very expensive to make, as would the outside form. Has a contact line of the mold halves been found? A very interesting post of yours which deserves the deliberation of experts.
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”. -The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing -Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle -Will not catch fire when candle burns down -Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them) -The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces -The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
Ingenious! I have little doubt you have nailed it. There is no doubt that the Roman army had to have had a coding/decoding device. And I am sure that the Dodecahedrons having been discovered at Roman army installations gave you the first clue of their possible use. Congratulations!
A good explaination of this thing but I'm not convinced. Makes sense except that I'm not sure why a difficult to manufacture bulky bronze device with different size holes is needed. You could achieve the same effect with a peg in the larger plain wheel or a smaller, flat peg board and using the same diameter peg & hole combination in the middle for all coded wheels. This way you wouldn't be limited to only 12 cypher wheels, you could have a unique code wheel for each agent with a partner available at one or possibly more authorised communication centres. All that you need to know is who the message comes from or is intended for to identify which wheel to use. Even without the bronze dodecahedron you could decode any message so long as you knew which code wheel had been used to encrypt it and you had a copy to hand.
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
What is the consistency of the hole sizes between the different dodecahedrons that have been found? Based on the tolerance in creating the holes, the holes sizes should be spaced apart in size to prevent an accidental overlap. Based on your theory of wax impressions and the envelope, opposing faces of the dodecahedron should always match between dodecahedrons. Has this been the case? Is there a published list of hole sizes and faces?
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting ! I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use. Cheers Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
This theory is a very good reason to support the fact that so few of these have been found. What a GREAT way to get kids to understand very cryproc ciphers. I really desire to make one for my grandbabies... oh, the possibilities are endless
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you. For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use. Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times. Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT. "1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions. 2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction. 3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours. The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without. You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you. Have a nice day. PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning? What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
Yes - very good indeed. Of course the Hail Decimus offers a keystone to try and crack the code, but you could swap the disc for each day of the week - Disc 1 for Monday, 2 for Tuesday etc. A great version of a one time code pad. Well done!
It was used in the Making of various ropes, cords strings for equipment, and also used in the making of a type of gold chains (known as Viking chains),
Thanks for your comments, Pete ! You will find this video interesting about the Viking Chain - ruclips.net/video/CpxNHJH_-7Y/видео.html Everyone in the world can own a stick.
In my mind, you have solved the mystery. Too many of your points are spot on. This isn’t a tiny coincidence, It’s proof. You have my sincere congratulations 🍾. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Anyone that disputes your discovery is a prat ….. (Yes, I’m outspoken and get straight to the point.)
Thanks for your reply, Jamie ! I hope you will enjoy my next video that goes live at 13:00hrs UK time today where I will show you the evidence. Cheers Matt
Excellent explanation. Most compelling of any I have heard. I would add though that they would probably use the coding of the "*" symbol to indicate end of word, to further hide the length of words in the message, just as you suggest they used the diamond with dot to hide double letters.
Thank you very much for your reply, Tomasz - yes, I think you are correct with this idea, as it would make the coding much more secure ! I will cover some of these ideas that commentators have suggested to improve the coding in my next video that I will be releasing in the coming weeks. I just tried to show a simple coding and de-coding system, so that people could easily understand my theory, and see how the system could work. Best Regards Matt
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
Matt you're a genius. Which is bound to make some people very unhappy. Just prior to discovering your video I had watched a few on the dodecahedron. My thought was it was probably something to do with military . That was good instinct. You put all the pieces together. Bravo!
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere. One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense. Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
I like the theory that they were used to make viking chain which had many uses. Also these things are found all over the place. If everyone had one how would you keep your secrets ?
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
With several components needed for this, have any components or pieces of (even if they are misidentified), other than the dodecahedron itself been found? Very interesting presentation.
Well, first of all, recent research has shown that we now, very seriously, doubt that this is even a Roman device, as we’ve speculated for the last 100 years. It is believed to be a bit older than Roman. Few are still clinging to the old, “it’s Roman” theory.
One commenter stated that “the obvious flaw” in the theory is that none of the tetrahedrons were the same. One, all 131 examples extant have not been in the same room together to be compared. Two each “group” had their wheels and tetrahedrons custom made, else anyone with a tetrahedron would be able to read their message. Would not want the authorities reading your private mail and would not want civilians able to purchase the system able to read military messages. Three these would likely be periodically remade and old ones destroyed (the fragment comes to mind). What I would like to see is if any of the other components, now able to be identified, have been found.
I totally agree with you that the 131 dodecahedrons have not been measured accurately, so no one can draw any conclusion from this 'fact'. Totally agree with you that members of the same group had their dodecahedrons and their code wheels 'custom made' just for them to use. Yes - periodically, the wheels would be remade and old ones destroyed. How would you feel about the theory if any of the other components had been found ?
That makes perfect sense!! And different sizes of dodecahedron could have each its own set of codes and maybe use the greek alphabet as well, since greek was the roman elite’s language. The number of combinations possible could be huge, yet the system in itself is extremely simple. Congratulations for having found out this very plausible explanation of this “mistery”
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later. Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer ! I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
I've been wondering about these mysterious Roman dodecahedrons for some years since I first became aware of their existence and this explanation is such an elegant solution that is must be right, well done sir for sussing this out, as far as I'm concerned the mystery is now solved
the different size holes are for measuring dry spaghetti portions, the knobs are for testing doneness by wrapping the cooked pasta around the knobs. : ) long before slicing and dicing were part of the kitchen tool kit...
@@trimbaker1893 Not a probable explanation I’ve heard before, it’s as good as all the hundreds of other suggested uses for such a device. Did the Romans eat Spaghetti?
That's okay, Thomas, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Weaving is a repetitive activity, and many Dodecahedrons are quite heavy. A tool made of wood would be much lighter in weight. A finger for a knitted glove would only have 5 stitches in it to surround each finger. Gold Chains can be easily woven with a wooden stick :- ruclips.net/video/CpxNHJH_-7Y/видео.html Anyone in the world can own a stick.
@Matt.Geevan I am not sure if you have seen the Dodecahedron being used to weave? So it slides onto a stick which removes the step of winding onto the card and also taking it off the card, splaying the daisy loops then taping the loops onto a stick, much faster. Then once the length of weave is acheived instead of pulling it through a board with decreasing sized holes you pull it back through the decreasing holes in the dodecahedron, again, efficient and less tools needed. If a large weave is required i.e the larger/heavier dodecahedron would be fitted onto an appropriate stick one end of which driven into the ground so you are two hands free. After watching the video you sent, I am now even more convinced as to the weaving application.....Good to talk.
Thanks very much for your reply, Stanley ! As you will see in my next video being published soon, perhaps the wheels had 5 slots rather than holes, to make the variance in dodecahedron sizes irrelevant. As long as the hole sizes and orientations matched within the communication group, the system would still work. This allowed different companies to make all the dodecahedrons, and the hole configurations were drilled to suit the requirements of the specific communication group using them. Cheers Matt
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly. While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility. To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness. It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes. This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
That could just mean that different code networks at different times used different sizes of wheels and dodecahedrons. You are the second person to state this and I cant see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit. They would obviously be incompatible if those code networks were unrelated and operated generations apart.
@@silvercloud-u5g Thanks very much for your reply - I am interested in your idea as to 'can't see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit' . Please could you assist me by elaborating a little. Thanks Matt
I agree with kevinurben6005 that as the theory stands it doesn't necessarily need the dodecahedron hole variety. But, I'm imagining each dodecahedron having a full set of wheels. One for each hole. These wheel sets would obviously match across all users of the system. You would then spread portions of a single message over any amount, and any variety, of wheels in a predesignated format very similar to your rotation per word protocol. Which particular wheel subset to be used at which time would be predetermined by the network and would change on a schedule. Even the wheel turn protocol could be dynamic. The layer of evolving wheel changes added to the layer of dynamic wheel turns would add enormous complexity to the system. Even if you managed to get an entire set of system wheels, without the most current predetermined wheel sequence, a trial and error hack would take forever. I don't think romans did anything half-ass. If they made an encryption system then it probably went far beyond single layer of encoding.
Thanks Kevin ! your ideas sound really interesting. As you can see from my video, I just tried to keep the coding system very simple to try and show that the theory could be possible. It could have been more complex as you suggest. Cheers Matt
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
Beautifully logical and coherent explanation, thank you. The dodecahedrons seem a bit delicate for use in military battle environments especially where rapid deployments and tactical repositionings would have been frequent. Might businessmen, bankers, and administrators, with their stable, physically safe(r) offices have been the target market for this encryption system?
Absolutely Harold ! As you will see in my video at about 30:00, I don't believe that the dodecahedron coding system was invented by the military, for the military. I believe that it was invented originally for commercial or business reasons, in much the same way as the Enigma Machine was in the early 1920's. The Roman military simply adopted the system because of its security and its simplicity of use. Many thanks for your comment.
I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded.
Cheers
Matt
Absolutely agree! Best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done!
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ?
Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose.
The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north.
I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
@@philippe94416 The dodecahedron gives a compact but non obvious way to encode which wheel was to be used based on the choice of which hole pair is up/down.
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Thanks Will, much appreciated !
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@RUclipsr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
It is convincing but not conclusive. Certainly plausible but not certainly proven. I am not saying Mr. Geevan is wrong, just that there may be other theories equally plausible and we don't have a smoking gun.
The best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done! Youve put the pieces together that nobody else could!
Thank you for your kind reply !
@@frontenac5083 Curious to hear your arguments.
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
@@Matt.Geevanwould the same apply to Icosahedron also ?
@@associatedblacksheepandmisfits thanks for your reply. I am not sure whether or not it would apply to the icosahedron, but a small number of my commentators believe that it would.
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
Yes - that is the most skillful part of the decoding - that's where I think that the rings surrounding the holes help the decoder with this process.
if indeed you owned the correct wheel.
Well, colour me impressed! This is such a well thought out solution to the mystery and the most compelling I've seen to date.
your comments are much appreciated !
Except:
1) They are not particularly associated with military sites
and
2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
Dear Matt. I am very happy that the RUclips algorithm suggested this video to me. I knew about the dodecahedron, but never thought about it very much. Your approach explains everything I had on mind. I must say that your hypothesis is very intriguing and I highly support it. I am aware that I might experience a bookcase example of confirmation bias, but the way you explained and showed your hypothesis was really convincing and simply makes sense however I look at it. I hope your findings will be analyzed by experts in various fields and your work will be scrutinized and confirmed as the most plausible explanation we have as of 2024. I have deep respect for you, as you managed not only to figure it out, but also create a video of this quality and make it publicly available. Hats off to you! You have my deepest respect. As said previously, I must also acknowledge the mysterious ways of the RUclips algorithm, that suggested this video to me. I am very grateful that I had a chance to see it. When it comes to likes, I am very hesitant to like a video. This one is only the 2nd or 3rd video this year to receive a like from me. And it is a very well deserved one. I treat my thumbs up as a very valuable resource, that only really great videos get. Dear Mr. Matt Geevan, I am pleased to give a like to this video you made. Best wishes, Erik. It was a pleasure to watch this video and a privilege to leave this comment.
Thanks very much for your kind comments, Erik !
Except:
1) They are not particularly associated with military sites
and
2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
First prize! I think you cracked it, love the down-to-earth approach. Can see no flaws yet.
Thanks very much Billy !
No flaws? He didn't explain why they bothered to make it a dodecahedron. He said why instead of other shapes but why make it a polygon at all, there's no need with this explanation. To much complexity for no gain is a pretty big red flag.
There is a flaw: the wax seal it’s too much sensibile to heat or random bumps so if the message would have been delivered with a damaged wax seal, there would have no way to decypher the text.
Anyway, very interesting.
Except:
1) They are not particularly associated with military sites
and
2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
@@rerooar I haven't watched the whole video yet, but is this theory based on the English or Latin alphabet?
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman!
A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
many thanks ! - I'm glad you liked it
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily.
An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
Thanks Ron, I really think that you've hit the nail on the head with your batch manufacturing and distribution ideas - well done !
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The lack of documentation on their use is what messes with me too.....
@@lostbutfreesoul Yes - this is really frustrating, but it's all part of the mystery !
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
Thank you! Cheers!
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
Thanks James, I really appreciated your comments !
Except:
1) They are not particularly associated with military sites
and
2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
Congratulations, that is the most convincing explanation so far! Your explanation makes so much sense! And I imagine the process was very similar to your demonstration.
Thank you, Matt !
Great video, Matt. This is the best explanation of the purpose for the dodecahedron I've seen. Congratulations on your 1st video!
Many thanks @superstring101 ! I'm just following the facts that we have found so far.
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
Thanks Ken, I just tried to piece together the information that we have
@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
It is a logical idea 💡 with materials explanation, but they have been found in multiple sizes so far. This means not one size fits all. Either it means specialisation if the holes are not universal or they were not consistent, which would be counter productive for general use.
It was speculated they were not Roman in origin so may be locally made with Celtic metal working heritage. The Romans either used an existing technology or commissioned it, or they were there before. Expensive, so a game, a reward, a religious item, a design piece, or as suggested logically here, a cypher system?
I would be more interested in the manufacture process? Mass cast produced or parts piece by piece braised together. Might help understand the frequency of use or origin, including of the metal which might also reveal the smelting location.
This is one of the more substantiated theories I've seen in regards to the Roman dodecahedrons. However, I'm far from convinced.
As some have pointed out, the found dodecahedrons aren't uniform in shape, size and size of the holes, I wonder do they have to be?
They aren't used like the enigma cipher kogs, it only needs to fit the disks it was made to fit when it was made. Instead of having entire sets of wheels to be made and sent out for all parties like Germany did for the enigma. Instead it might be a much more exclusive cipher where discs weren't made obsolete. Then as long as the letters on the discs match positions on both ends of communication it will work no matter the size difference of dodecahedrons and discs. Please correct me if I'm wrong
That is a very compelling hypostasis, thank you for putting it all together.
Thanks for your reply
I think he bridged that gap between hypothesis and theory!
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network.
It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size?
Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself....
As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work?
Also... what about tolerance?
Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller....
or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
I don't think it is necessary for them to be of the same size. Probably older commanders, having presbyopia, wanted larger letter discs, and hence larger dodecahedra. What needs to be the same is relative position of corresponding openings on the device, and their number of outer rings, which supposedly uniquely enumerates/identifies the side on dodecahedron which left the imprint on wax seal. Each communicating station (commander) needs to have coding/decoding wheels with same sequences of signs and pegs matching corresponding openings on their own dodecahedron.
@@lostbutfreesoulwell, they would need to be the same size for the sealing aspect to work, though not for the ecoding-decoding.
Great video man and honestly the best and most logical answer I’ve seen to the mystery
Thanks @fatmatt1746 - I've just tried to follow the evidence.
Cheers
Matt
That's the most illogical use I've seen for the word "logical".
I think your theory is perfectly laid out and makes a lot of sense. Also it addresses the question of why such an elaborate and expensive (for the time), object actually existed. It would be the contemporary equivalent of a military grade communication system, unavailable and unknown in its workings for the layman.
Thanks very much for your comments ! Absolutely - a Military Grade Communication System.
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks very much for your insight.
Cheers
Except:
1) They are not particularly associated with military sites
and
2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
Thanks very much for your observation !
Cheers
Matt
Fascinating and logical. Made perfect sense to me . Thanks for the video.
thanks @Valisk131 Glad you liked it!
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
This is great! I have been curious about these objects for years and this seems to be the most plausible explanation yet!
much appreciated, Dave !
This totally made my evening!
many thanks !
Makes perfect sense with the military camp pattern of discovery, within harshly contested territories. Absolutely brilliant.
Many thanks for your comments, Wrath !
Makes no sense at all. You don't need an object like that to line up wheels.
@@lubumbashi6666 You do need the object to determine the size of the hole opposite to the size of the seal. This might be where the video is wrong: The disc cylinder size intended to match is not the one that matches the seal, but the one directly opposite to it on top. That way, if all you you have is the letter, its seal and the discs, you still don't know which set of discs to use. The messages might even be short and simple enough to have several false decoy messages decipherable when randomly matching several discs to the letter, even if the decoder knows they should not match the seal.
@@lubumbashi6666 but which wheel do you need to use ?
The Roman Enigma Machine...
Cheers.
Thanks @zachariaszut - Exactly !
Perhaps they had Alanus Turingus to help.
Except:
1) They are not particularly associated with military sites
and
2) They are only found in northern and western provinces. There are none in Italy, for example.
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
Glad you enjoyed it Brian !
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome.
Cheers
Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
You would have to ask a Roman slave if it was too big.
absolutely, Manuel - spot on !
Interesting theory with at least one drawback. For your theory to work all recipients of coded messages would have to have identical sized dodecahedrons. From what I have read, no two of the found dodecahedrons are even closely matched in size or hole sizes.
Have any metal casters tried to cast a dodecahedron? I have done a few small pieces of lost wax casting and would balk at trying to cast something so intricate.
Thanks for your comment, Alan ! Yes - you are correct, the Dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes because, for example, one has been found from 159 AD and another on has been found from say, 259 AD.
That is, the two have been found from different series that were made 100 years apart from each other, so we are getting two different 'snapshots' in the historical timeline
Yes - metal casters have made dodecahedrons -
ruclips.net/video/KpTDHYRxklA/видео.html
I think glove finger knitting frames show the best theory. Several youtube sites show the process.
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
Here is some of the evidence you are looking for :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
and here is the the evidence that supports that :-
ruclips.net/video/U1amilJffaU/видео.html
That sir is one heck of an impressive feat. It is without doubt a very realistic reason for the dodecahedrons and I really think you have cracked it. To me it is just too much of a coincidence that all these steps line up so perfectly for it not to have been their purpose. Congratulations
Thanks very much for your very kind comments , Ben !
here is some evidence from the same time in history to support it :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Cheers
Matt
I first encountered this enigma as a side note and as an illustration n an archeological text entitled "Gods Graves and Scholars" in 1952 or 1953 chronicling the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb in Egypt by Howard Carter. It belonged to my mother who was an expert in ancient writing who found it baffling and pointed it out to me.. I have been puzzled by it all my life and have spent much time musing and pondering over the riddle it presents over all these years. Now at last many years later I have stumbled across your brilliant and detailed unravelling of this mystery. I am very impressed and delighted. I cannot begin to imagine the effort you must have expended and the time taken to solve it. I am grateful to you. In memory of my mother it is very meaningful to me, wonderful, thank you very much. I am immensely pleased.
Thanks very much for your kind reply, Albert !
@@Matt.Geevan I have had an idea ! My lightbulb has gone on....I must share it with you. I have not had the opportunity to physically examine a bronze dodecahedron - but it occurs to me that the rings may have added significance apart from hole enlarging potential - being - a coded signal for the recipient indicating degree of urgency or danger for example - in advance of opening and decoding. The wax impression on the received enclosed tablet would at a glance indicate classification equivalent to the modern
confidential or secret or uk eyes only or top secret or ultra markings on envelopes containing official classified content. Has each hole have the same number of rings or do they vary ?
@@albertlabos8400 That's a very interesting idea, Albert ! From what I have seen, the number of rings vary around each hole.
@@Matt.Geevan Another observation:- It seems that they were not strictly speaking "standardised". From images I have looked at it seems some are larger, others smaller, others even decorated. This would imply specialisation and the possibility they were cast and issued in matched pairs or triples to be used in specific information chains, not unlike the "need to know" barriers imposed in modernity to maintain secrecy in protected information linkages. It gets progressively more and more intriguing.
Yes Albert - I think you are correct ! I believe that they were manufactured in small sets for each specific Communication Group as required. This kept the coding secure within each Comms Group
Seems absolutely spot on.
I would be very surprised if any competing theory can look as convincing as this.
I subscribed, this is one of the bigger eye openers I have seen in a long time.
many thanks for your kind comments and subscription, Jimbo !
Best Regards
Matt
Hi Jimbo - I think that i have found some evidence to support this:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
As those decahedrons also occure here in Bavaria, I always wondered about their meaning.
I like this idea very much!
Respect for figuring that out!
Thank you very much, Lookey !
Psst its a knitting tool for gloves…why you find them in cold regions
This really is the first explanation that makes sense thank you for sharing
Thanks very much, Mike !
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers.
I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe.
Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also.
Thanks
Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
My thoughts exactly! You nailed it.
@@TheAlchaemist Yes, that was one of the issues occurring to me. But I think it is a minor detail, especially if the disc is rotated after every letter as suggested above. Both encoding and decoding give continuous text with no spaces, but the Romans were accustomed to reading that.
and why would one be found in a woman's tomb? Why would some be so adorned ?
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
Thanks very much for your kind comments , Bruce !
I appreciate your theory. It's exciting. I have one also, that I can't disprove. Here are some questions for your theory:
1. All current dod finds have differing opening radiuses when compared to each other. A secret communication pathway would need either all or many dods/cipher wheels to be duplicates between communicators or at least have pairs with who you’re communicating with (according to your theory-let me know if I'm wrong). Statistically, duplicate dods would have been found, already. No two duplicate dods have been found to my knowledge (let me know if you know otherwise).
2. Your explanation as to why they are only found in the N/NW/Britain - The high degree of ambush probability in the find areas vs the South and Eastern areas around the Mediterranean, not needing a code machine because of using a ship for message transfer. How do you defend this more thoroughly?
3. Contrary to published work/articles, many (MANY) dods DO show signs of wear around the holes (see the Corbridge, Tongeren, Jublains, xxx, etc. dods……).
My theory is based on wood polearm weapon shaft procurement by wealthy Gallic merchants with Auxiliary troop arms officers, but also includes weapon head removal/tapering. Why do you say there are no signs of wear? It's obvious on the larger hole sizes and largest opposing holes of multiple dods.
4. You said, there are 12 different sized holes in the dods. In reality, some dods have some holes that are identically sized (IOWs more than 2 holes that are exactly the same size). Why would the code designer limit the 12 code wheel combos?
thanks for your reply Richard - About 130 dodecahedrons have been found during the last 285 years, maybe another 130 dodecahedrons may be found during the next 285 years. I don't understand 'how statistically duplicate dodecahedrons would have been found' ?
As a simple analogy experiment, if you took 130 pairs of socks and buried one of each pair somewhere in the Roman empire, then buried the other socks somewhere else - exactly how long would it take to find a pair?
Travel across land was slow and dangerous for a variety of reasons. Boats or ships were the most secure means of transporting both goods and messages around the South and Eastern parts of the empire.
Areas close to Italy were perhaps more friendly territories.
I'm afraid that here is not a great deal of information that we can trust given about the Dodecahedron.
The code wheels could have been double-sided, giving 24 combinations for each dodecahedron. I just showed a simple, basic arrangement.
Cheers
Matt
@Matt.Geevan brings up a good point. How about another? The hedrons were effective tools used to knit the fingers in gloves in medieval Europe. The nobs made for a useful hold on the current level of weave on the finger. As the weave progressed, the length could be tested by putting a finger into the hole. While that may not be the original purpose, it became a common purpose. The holes accommodated different sized finger covers that fit like - are you ready for it? - a glove!
@@The_Real_Danger_Mouse Matt's thoughts are well received (and entertaining), but there would have been some standardization of some aspects of the dods (or pairs found...not one pair was found; it's obvious they were created in situ...this is VERY IMPORTANT for all our you that are trying to figure this out for yourselves). Also, they would have been found in a wider area of the realm.
In addition, we can use a loo / toilet seat for a shoe, for a really big horse foot, but that's not the point. There's no material evidence of Roman knitting in this period.
I have studied all the hole sizes (of all known dod finds) and some would not accommodate this use. Also, French knitting is not based on a hole size....it's based on the # of pins.
I appreciate your comment. If you have any questions, let me know.
@@richardallday7387 I did not say they were made for knitting, only that hedrons found were employed as tools for knitting. With a lack of texts and art references, only hypotheticals can be offered.
Very well done. The most plausible explanation I've ever seen.
Thanks very much for your comments, Mark !
You can see the Evidence that I have discovered to support my theory at
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
and ruclips.net/video/jin5fVedzqM/видео.html
Cheers
Matt
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center.
I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
Michael, thanks very much for your comments on my theory. Your modification ideas are really interesting !
Much appreciated !
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12).
I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Really interesting Michael ! I wondered how the two solids could be related ! any chance you could send me a picture or simple sketch of what you are thinking ?
my email address is matt.gevan@aol.com
Cheers
Matt
Wow! This is the most logical and practical answer I have heard on this. Bravo!!!
Wow, thanks!
You do realize that for this to actually work, both sender and receiver must be in possession of the exact same
dodecahedron. Plus as yet, no coding wheels have been found.
Nice theory though.
The coding wheels would have been made out of light material which is easily and quickly disposable if necessary, good opsec would be to destroy those things regularly as to not leave dangerous loose ends.
Thanks for your reply Gary, - yes, you are correct - sender and receiver both need same dodecahedrons. No coding wheels have been found yet.
Cheers
Matt
Hi Gary - here is the evidence:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Absolute genius!
A quick question, have any of the decoding wheels ever been found?
I think there's another video here for you. How you worked this out! It really is an astonishing piece of work.
many thanks ! I may take you up on that idea.
No - I don't think any decoding wheels have been found as of yet.
I love your videos !
Here is the codewheel evidence that I have discovered:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
@@Matt.Geevan oh thank you on both counts, Matt! I will check this out!
Absolutely great - a very convincing solution to that riddle....
Thank you @MrFrankie180
You have the most compelling explanation to date. Everything makes sense, even where they've been found. Nobody knew what they were other than the living members of the Roman army who knew about their use. Once that person died, the Dodecahedron was considered as just a trinket, and buried with bodies, or lost, or tossed away accidentally. Since nobody else knew they had been used to encipher messages, the knowledge of their use disappeared. Thank you. You've earned a subscription.
Thanks very much for your comments !
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
Absolutely Dave !
If someone knew that it was an object owned by a military officer but did not know its purpose, they might replicate it with identical holes. Either out of a sense of symmetry or just because it would be easier to drill all the holes the same.
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that!
Best regards, and congratulations!
many thanks for your comments !
I'd like to add some further details confirming the technical sophistication of this item's manufacture . Lost Wax casting or investment casting enables a 3D form to be produced in one pour as the copy wax is melted out of the moulded plaster , or similar material into which the wax was immersed leaving the accurate void to be filled . This filling has to be done quickly into a hot mould to prevent 'freezing' of the molten metal . It must flow into every void and expel all the air so sprues and runners and risers and pouring cups are added, in wax, prior to investing . It is a hugely skilled technique to guarantee a complete fill every cast, made more difficult as this thing is relatively thin skeletal monocoque . For this reason alone and anyone who is experienced in investment casting will agree, without modern centrifuges and propane gas torches to keep everything up to temperature , these Roman jobbies are of the very highest standard skill wise and would have been manically expensive to make . This confirms that they are not a casual toy or random art object-- that they had a hugely important function- and without doubt the only organisation with the cash to get these made ,in numbers , was the State . AS a cipher tool with code wheels now lost, its function is so obvious . Why did it take so long to find out ? Are the Geevan's unique ??
@jonviol - I've been really impressed by your extensive research in the subject of the Dodecahedron's manufacturing process !
I totally agree with your conclusion that they could have only been manufactured in quantities by the State. This is a great piece of work - Well Done !
@@Matt.Geevan Yes , not really extensive just recalling 7 years working in the Jewellery Quarter Birmingham mass producing gold and silver objects using investment casting techniques exactly the same as the technique which this almost 2000 y o dodecahedron demonstrates . Every aspect requires a full control of materials and understanding of how heat alters behaviour in manufacturing a final solid object and minimising failed pours- a total waste of all the effort . Making the waxes is so so difficult and historians never seem to grasp its preliminary expenditure of time and think only about the final cast cold finished result. If hundreds of these were produced, most likely as 130 have so far been found so far , we have proof of a large organised system working harmoniously in an intelligent practical environment . Sourcing clean copper, tin , zinc, fluxes, powdered calcium, charcoal and air pumps , waxes and thickeners , hand tools ,saws files etc ,is no different then than today . Scores of people, no phones, delivery vans, electric lights and so on . But we have electricity , silicon rubbers for mould making and high carbon steel for tool making . The deeper I examine this matter the greater is the conviction that we have here an example of State led mass production predating the industrial revolution by at least 1000 years and the how many different trades required to work together for a successful solution to a dedicated need . No art object this, no toy or coin sampler- hugely sophisticated in every possible way . .Jonathan
@@jonviol Thanks Jonathan, this is a really useful insight into the whole manufacturing process - Thank you !
There is a thing we did as kids using a wooden cotton reel, with 4 panel pins nailed in one end, and a length of wool. We called it French knitting. Basically a woven rope could be made from a simple twisted thread. Rope is amazingly useful and by weaving could increase the ability to lift heavier weights. Thin ropes could be woven into thicker ropes which were even stronger. one thing about soldiering or sailoring, is that you have a lot of time on your hands, and using something like the dodecahedron, you could make standard sized ropes, even with multiple cores for various purposes when nothing more important was happening. You could use wool, animal hair, flax or hemp, or even leather thongs and animal sinews to make strong ropes. I have even seen these things used with wire to make jewellery chains of soft metal like gold, silver, and copper.
Many thanks for your reply, Tika. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject.
Thank you. One off the bucket-list.
Cheers !
Your first video? Wow. I can't wait for more videos. I love the way you explain things.
Welcome aboard!
Very clever... very clever...
My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo.
Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes.
Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments.
Cheers
Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
Maybe the system was abandoned
@@Deppel57 Nobody uses Nokias anymore : )
@@Deppel57 Most likely yes and replaced by another system.
to be made with the 'lost wax' process a mold would be needed which splits in half to incorporate the clay internal structure (otherwise you would have a solid dodecahedron) This would leave a fine line around it. The clay internal structure could be chiseled out, today we would use special 'green sand'. The holes could be accurately cast from the internal clay dodecahedron by means of cylinders sticking out through to what would be the outside surface, these cylinders would also position the internal clay structure accurately to the outside form. To be accurate the internal structure would need a steel mold to form it. The outside form would be made of a steel mold. This would require very skilled tool makers, probably not beyond the Romans capabilities. Although the mold for the clay internal dodecahedron could be used thousands of times it would be very expensive to make, as would the outside form. Has a contact line of the mold halves been found? A very interesting post of yours which deserves the deliberation of experts.
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
Thanks very much, William - yes, that's a really interesting point !
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”.
-The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing
-Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle
-Will not catch fire when candle burns down
-Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them)
-The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces
-The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
That's okay, Roger. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
Your reply is much appreciated @laurencedarabia2000 Thanks !
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
Thanks Alexander ! I really found your comments interesting. The icosahedron is probably a totally different subject.
Cheers
Brilliant! Well done, sir. Highly compelling.
Glad you liked it, Alan!
Ingenious! I have little doubt you have nailed it. There is no doubt that the Roman army had to have had a coding/decoding device. And I am sure that the Dodecahedrons having been discovered at Roman army installations gave you the first clue of their possible use. Congratulations!
Thanks very much James for your reply. Yes - that was one of the clues, but not the first clue !
Cheers
Matt
Absolutely marvellous, congratulations on your well researched, amazingly rationalised, astonishing realised discovery . .amazing...Absolutely fantastic.
Congratulations
Many thanks for your kind comments Ernie - I'm glad you enjoyed it !
Cheers
Matt
Discovery?
Did I miss something?
A good explaination of this thing but I'm not convinced. Makes sense except that I'm not sure why a difficult to manufacture bulky bronze device with different size holes is needed. You could achieve the same effect with a peg in the larger plain wheel or a smaller, flat peg board and using the same diameter peg & hole combination in the middle for all coded wheels. This way you wouldn't be limited to only 12 cypher wheels, you could have a unique code wheel for each agent with a partner available at one or possibly more authorised communication centres. All that you need to know is who the message comes from or is intended for to identify which wheel to use. Even without the bronze dodecahedron you could decode any message so long as you knew which code wheel had been used to encrypt it and you had a copy to hand.
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
yes thanks Ron ! You are correct ! I read all about the Vigenere cipher some years ago in Simon Singh's 'The Code Book'
marvellous reading !
Cheers
What is the consistency of the hole sizes between the different dodecahedrons that have been found? Based on the tolerance in creating the holes, the holes sizes should be spaced apart in size to prevent an accidental overlap. Based on your theory of wax impressions and the envelope, opposing faces of the dodecahedron should always match between dodecahedrons. Has this been the case? Is there a published list of hole sizes and faces?
This would be great if there is one !
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
If his decoder theory is correct then only two had to match, the ones issuing orders and the one receiving them
Exactly Dagroovi ! Thank you
you are correct Maggs - we only have to find two which are the same.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
Very convincing. Makes perfect sense. Congratulations on your discovery!
Thanks Ede
Very Impressive presentation. I am persuaded that this was the use of these objects. Thank You.
Thank you @lynwood7205
Terrific piece of work sir... have puzzled this myself for a long time based on some kind of codex, now solved. Thank you.
Thank you ! if you would like to see the evidence I have discovered :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting !
I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use.
Cheers
Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
Very heterodox use of the word "convincing".
This theory is a very good reason to support the fact that so few of these have been found. What a GREAT way to get kids to understand very cryproc ciphers. I really desire to make one for my grandbabies... oh, the possibilities are endless
Thanks for your reply !
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you.
For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use.
Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times.
Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT.
"1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device
Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions.
2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device
Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction.
3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism
Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
Thanks CoffeWorker - a really interesting reply !
An AI programme does not "reason".
Therefore, all these "conclusions" are bound to be flawed to begin with.
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours.
The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without.
You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you.
Have a nice day.
PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning?
What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
Yes - very good indeed. Of course the Hail Decimus offers a keystone to try and crack the code, but you could swap the disc for each day of the week - Disc 1 for Monday, 2 for Tuesday etc. A great version of a one time code pad. Well done!
Thanks Mr Mojo !
It was used in the Making of various ropes, cords strings for equipment, and also used in the making of a type of gold chains (known as Viking chains),
Thanks for your comments, Pete ! You will find this video interesting about the Viking Chain - ruclips.net/video/CpxNHJH_-7Y/видео.html
Everyone in the world can own a stick.
@@Matt.GeevanEven this video ends by saying “the other tool we need is a draw plate”. A stick alone cannot accomplish the task.
Wax would probably have been used in making ropes - would keep the fibres stuck to each other..
In my mind, you have solved the mystery.
Too many of your points are spot on.
This isn’t a tiny coincidence, It’s proof.
You have my sincere congratulations 🍾. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Anyone that disputes your discovery is a prat …..
(Yes, I’m outspoken and get straight to the point.)
Thanks for your reply, Jamie ! I hope you will enjoy my next video that goes live at 13:00hrs UK time today where I will show you the evidence.
Cheers
Matt
This is amazing information. Thank You for your brilliance !
Many thanks for your kind comments, Deborah !
Excellent explanation. Most compelling of any I have heard. I would add though that they would probably use the coding of the "*" symbol to indicate end of word, to further hide the length of words in the message, just as you suggest they used the diamond with dot to hide double letters.
Thank you very much for your reply, Tomasz - yes, I think you are correct with this idea, as it would make the coding much more secure !
I will cover some of these ideas that commentators have suggested to improve the coding in my next video that I will be releasing in the coming weeks.
I just tried to show a simple coding and de-coding system, so that people could easily understand my theory, and see how the system could work.
Best Regards
Matt
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
Thank you, much appreciated, Colin !
"To end your opponent rightly, take your encoding dodecahedron and throw it at him."
It was a knitting tool for gloves already proven
Matt you're a genius.
Which is bound to make some people very unhappy.
Just prior to discovering your video I had watched a few on the dodecahedron.
My thought was it was probably something to do with military . That was good instinct. You put all the pieces together.
Bravo!
Much appreciated Carter, I just tried to follow the facts as I understood them.
Cheers
Matt
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere.
One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense.
Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
Thanks very much Bob for your comments !
I like the theory that they were used to make viking chain which had many uses. Also these things are found all over the place. If everyone had one how would you keep your secrets ?
That's okay - everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
I'm not sure you're agreeing with most dictionaries as to the definition of the word "plausible".
I watched Simon Whistler bang on for ages about how no one knows what these things were.
And I believed him, until now!
Well done sir, well done!
Much appreciated James !
By jove I believe you've cracked it/ Well done!
your comments are appreciated @davejob630, I just tried to follow the facts
That's brilliant! Some serious brain power went into figuring out (let alone, developing) that solution to this mystery! Thank you!
Thanks for your comments.
17:55 This device was known as nemorosa orbis (woody disk) , the ancient predecessor of the floppy disk
With several components needed for this, have any components or pieces of (even if they are misidentified), other than the dodecahedron itself been found? Very interesting presentation.
Thanks Crowz ! I admit that none have been found as of yet, but I am still in the process of investigation, so I will keep you all posted.
Cheers
Matt
here is the evidence:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
Well, first of all, recent research has shown that we now, very seriously, doubt that this is even a Roman device, as we’ve speculated for the last 100 years. It is believed to be a bit older than Roman. Few are still clinging to the old, “it’s Roman” theory.
Thanks for your reply, NorthernChev - If you watch at 30:09 you will see that I said exactly that.
This is by far the best theory I have seen. I can't fault your reasoning, well done👍
much appreciated Trevor !
One commenter stated that “the obvious flaw” in the theory is that none of the tetrahedrons were the same. One, all 131 examples extant have not been in the same room together to be compared. Two each “group” had their wheels and tetrahedrons custom made, else anyone with a tetrahedron would be able to read their message. Would not want the authorities reading your private mail and would not want civilians able to purchase the system able to read military messages. Three these would likely be periodically remade and old ones destroyed (the fragment comes to mind). What I would like to see is if any of the other components, now able to be identified, have been found.
I totally agree with you that the 131 dodecahedrons have not been measured accurately, so no one can draw any conclusion from this 'fact'.
Totally agree with you that members of the same group had their dodecahedrons and their code wheels 'custom made' just for them to use.
Yes - periodically, the wheels would be remade and old ones destroyed.
How would you feel about the theory if any of the other components had been found ?
I wonder if they already have been and are tucked away in archives as "unknown artifacts".@@Matt.Geevan
@@KM-fx7pz Thanks for your reply - You may very well be correct !
yes - here is the evidence I have found:-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
That makes perfect sense!! And different sizes of dodecahedron could have each its own set of codes and maybe use the greek alphabet as well, since greek was the roman elite’s language. The number of combinations possible could be huge, yet the system in itself is extremely simple.
Congratulations for having found out this very plausible explanation of this “mistery”
much appreciated !
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later.
Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer !
I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at
Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
Thanks @i0i
I've been wondering about these mysterious Roman dodecahedrons for some years since I first became aware of their existence and this explanation is such an elegant solution that is must be right, well done sir for sussing this out, as far as I'm concerned the mystery is now solved
Your comments are much appreciated Rotax ! Thank you.
Bravo 👏A extremely well thought out hypothesis. If this is not the true purpose of the Dodecahedron then it is a waste
Thanks @PADARM !
the different size holes are for measuring dry spaghetti portions, the knobs are for testing doneness by wrapping the cooked pasta around the knobs. : ) long before slicing and dicing were part of the kitchen tool kit...
@@ChrisBlackwood-p2w right?
@@trimbaker1893 Not a probable explanation I’ve heard before, it’s as good as all the hundreds of other suggested uses for such a device.
Did the Romans eat Spaghetti?
@@ChrisBlackwood-p2w invented the stuff I reckon...
thanks - everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject.
I don't think that the Romans invented pasta...... or pizza !
Thanks for figuring it out, It's been driving me crazy for years. Thanks Again and Have A Great Day ,!
Glad to help, Bill !
I know thats a lot of thought and effort, but I am pretty struck on it being a weaving tool.
That's okay, Thomas, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Weaving is a repetitive activity, and many Dodecahedrons are quite heavy. A tool made of wood would be much lighter in weight. A finger for a knitted glove would only have 5 stitches in it to surround each finger. Gold Chains can be easily woven with a wooden stick :-
ruclips.net/video/CpxNHJH_-7Y/видео.html
Anyone in the world can own a stick.
@Matt.Geevan I am not sure if you have seen the Dodecahedron being used to weave? So it slides onto a stick which removes the step of winding onto the card and also taking it off the card, splaying the daisy loops then taping the loops onto a stick, much faster. Then once the length of weave is acheived instead of pulling it through a board with decreasing sized holes you pull it back through the decreasing holes in the dodecahedron, again, efficient and less tools needed. If a large weave is required i.e the larger/heavier dodecahedron would be fitted onto an appropriate stick one end of which driven into the ground so you are two hands free. After watching the video you sent, I am now even more convinced as to the weaving application.....Good to talk.
Brilliant explanation, thank you
Glad you liked it @Hadwyn !
Very well explained. I’m wondering how the dodecahedrons without large index holes and irregularly shaped spurs would be used in this context.
Thanks very much for your reply, Stanley !
As you will see in my next video being published soon,
perhaps the wheels had 5 slots rather than holes, to make the variance in dodecahedron sizes irrelevant. As long as the hole sizes and orientations matched within the communication group, the system would still work.
This allowed different companies to make all the dodecahedrons, and the hole configurations were drilled to suit the requirements of the specific communication group using them.
Cheers
Matt
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly.
While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility.
To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness.
It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes.
This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
yes you are correct frenchfriar, I don't think any work has been done to measure and categorise all the dodecahedrons already found
That could just mean that different code networks at different times used different sizes of wheels and dodecahedrons. You are the second person to state this and I cant see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit. They would obviously be incompatible if those code networks were unrelated and operated generations apart.
@@silvercloud-u5g Thanks very much for your reply - I am interested in your idea as to 'can't see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit' . Please could you assist me by elaborating a little.
Thanks
Matt
Here is some evidence that I have discovered :-
ruclips.net/video/w87I-sRGtDY/видео.html
I agree with kevinurben6005 that as the theory stands it doesn't necessarily need the dodecahedron hole variety. But, I'm imagining each dodecahedron having a full set of wheels. One for each hole. These wheel sets would obviously match across all users of the system. You would then spread portions of a single message over any amount, and any variety, of wheels in a predesignated format very similar to your rotation per word protocol. Which particular wheel subset to be used at which time would be predetermined by the network and would change on a schedule. Even the wheel turn protocol could be dynamic. The layer of evolving wheel changes added to the layer of dynamic wheel turns would add enormous complexity to the system. Even if you managed to get an entire set of system wheels, without the most current predetermined wheel sequence, a trial and error hack would take forever. I don't think romans did anything half-ass. If they made an encryption system then it probably went far beyond single layer of encoding.
Thanks Kevin ! your ideas sound really interesting. As you can see from my video, I just tried to keep the coding system very simple to try and show that the theory could be possible. It could have been more complex as you suggest.
Cheers
Matt
what about the ones found without holes in the center of each face?
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
thanks for your reply - I think that the holes were drilled 'as and when' to suit the requirements of the communication system.
@@Matt.Geevan Oh, right!
That clarifies this, then.
Beautifully logical and coherent explanation, thank you.
The dodecahedrons seem a bit delicate for use in military battle environments especially where rapid deployments and tactical repositionings would have been frequent. Might businessmen, bankers, and administrators, with their stable, physically safe(r) offices have been the target market for this encryption system?
Absolutely Harold ! As you will see in my video at about 30:00, I don't believe that the dodecahedron coding system was invented by the military, for the military. I believe that it was invented originally for commercial or business reasons, in much the same way as the Enigma Machine was in the early 1920's.
The Roman military simply adopted the system because of its security and its simplicity of use.
Many thanks for your comment.