Rebels and TCW always had the opposite strengths and weaknesses from one another. TCW was more innovative and technically sophisticated, while Rebels has the advantage of telling one cohesive story.
I grew up with TCW but over the years and the more I learned about legends the more I began to see the damage Dave filoni did with the retcons and contradictions especially after I reuniting with the clone wars Micoseries. Kanan beating Maul with minimal effort. But the lengths filoni went to save ahsoka I stopped taking him seriously. Respawn's jedi series perfectly captures how a padawan is and devs don't make you forget you are a padawan level character even after reconnecting with the force. To be fair TCW did have great animations and artstyle in later seasons especially the lightsaber duels. In Rebels the duels were fine but it's difficult to take the likes of Kanan seriously beating the grand inquisitor only to lose to his lessers. At least he doesn't overstay his welcome.
I wish it had the level of brutality and reality the clone wars and Andor have. It's too wishy-washy and gives too much focus on a single rebel cell. Overall if you just watch 15-20 essential episodes (skip the rest) it makes the series more meaningful and realistic. The episodes with Saw Gerrera, Ashoka, Yavin IV, and Maul were awesome.
I mostly agree with you. The brutality could certainly have been toned up and many of the episodes are completely skippable. I would, however, disagree about the show focusing too much on a single rebel cell. Though an anthology show about the various rebel cells would be interesting, I also enjoyed that we stayed with these characters longer, thus getting to know them better.
2:24 Of course she's better than Saxon, she's a Force-Sensitive, unlike him. We saw it repeatedly hinted at in the show itself, and Ahsoka confirms it. Besides, Saxon never did anything that impressive to begin with, while Sabine was confirmed to be a child genius and skilled warrior even before she fought him.
Being Force-Sensitive doesn't automatically make you better than someone else. Jango Fett, who isn't Force-Sensitive, killed many skilled Jedi and even went toe to toe with Obi-Wan Kenobi, a future member of the High Council.
@@carolusmagnus1871 And we never saw Saxon do anything worth praising, unlike Jango and Sabine. We never saw Luminara do anything worth praising when she fought Ventress, while we had seen a weighed down Ahsoka kill three Magnaguards. Being Jedi Master means she either did something truly exceptional, or trained a Padawan into a Knight, and the answer for Luminara is never revealed. Being the Imperial front man for Mandalore just means Saxon is a willing minion, nothing more. Sabine is a one-woman army and technical genius before turning nineteen, and she's Force Sensitive. No contest.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 You're quite conveniently ignoring my argument which is that a Ahsoka and Sabine are children. And Saxon and Luminara have proven themselves by being war veterans. Luminara was a successful and prominent general in the Clone Wars. Saxon was a war veteran from the Clone Wars who appears as one of Maul's top goons in TCW, so it absolutely does show him doing something "praiseworthy." And "she's Force Sensitive" isn't an explanation. Seriously, you need to stop using it. Being Force Sensitive doesn't automatically make you the best of the best. There are plenty of Force Sensitives who get absolutely decimated by non-Force Sensitives. If you don't like my Jango example as he's too notorious, how about the countless unnamed Jedi who have been bested by countless unnamed Mandalorians? Mandalorians are known for being extremely powerful and Gar Saxon is said to be one of the best. Sabine being a technical genius doesn't make her a good fighter. And her being a "one-woman army" doesn't negate the fact that Gar Saxon is also supposed to be a "one-man army".
@@carolusmagnus1871 Saxon has never been shown fighting a dozen Jumptroopers alone while his allies are also swarmed. In ATLA S1, we meet Admiral Zhao, an officer who's risen to the top of the Fire Navy and is said to be a Master Firebender by Iroh out of Zuko's, and by extension Aang's, league. He loses every fight he's in, and neither Zuko or Aang have much trouble doing so. In the season finale, we meet Hahn, who's supposed to be the greatest warrior in the Northern Water Tribe. He's pretty forgetful of important information, and he dies because his target sidestepped him. Both these guys were exactly the same as Saxon: arrogant bullies who thought they were tough and that their enemies were too far beneath them to be a threat. Which means they are only dangerous when they resort to dishonorable tactics and/or throwing a bunch of goons at their adversary. When neither is an option, they crumble fairly easily. And I never heard anyone say Saxon was some great warrior or brilliant commander.
I personally really enjoyed Rebels and it's by far my favourite Star Wars show. I really don't think it should be compared to Clone Wars at all, as they are both incredibly different. Clone Wars has a bigger picture, focuses on lots of different things (Jedi Order, Mandalore, Training, War). It's arcs are also inconsistent and have to be put together like a puzzle. Rebels however, has one consistent storyline focusing on the one small Rebel cell. Which people seem to complain about, but it's literally the point of the show. Focusing on the Ghost Crew. It's a totally different style from everything else within Star Wars. Everything from Animation style to full blown character arcs are in a different style. It's different. And that throws people off a lot, which i don't blame them for, as i was thrown off at the beginning aswell. But i grew to really like it and became attatched to all the characters. And the whole 'Filoni style people with names don't die' is bullshit for many reasons. First off if the people with names DID die at certain points, it would ruin the whole arc. If the arc revolves around a character, that character can't die. Second of all, FIloni literally killed 2 main charatcers in a season. (Well, technically Ezra didn't die but he sure as hell disappeared for years). Not too often that happens in a show, especially a quote on quote "kids show". It really did take me by surpirse when Kanan died. Anyway, i could go on for another hour about how much i like Rebels and how it does have a storyline and characters are important but i won't tire your eyes :)
I'm not sure why you're talking about comparing Rebels to the Clone Wars. That's not what this video is about. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything you said about comparing the two shows. They're very different in that one is an anthology while the other follows a single group of characters. Yes, I mention the Clone Wars in this video, but not as a comparison between the genres. I compare Ahsoka to Ezra and Sabine, but that's a character-to-character comparison. I compare the lack of stakes, but, again, that's nothing to do with the genres, but with an overarching theme in Filoni's writing. And Filoni doesn't harm named characters. Saying Ezra's disappearance is equivalent to a death is ridiculous. If he, as a main character, disappeared in the middle of a season, then MAYBE. But he disappeared at the end of the entire show. That's not equivalent to a death because there's only about five minutes without him in it and they're talking about finding him. And think about it. How are named characters treated when they disappear off screen? Maul falls to his death on Malachor, but wait, no, he's fine. Well, Ahsoka disappears, locked away with Darth Vader, surely she's dead, right? Nope. Time itself is altered to save her. Disappearing doesn't equal death. People who "die" off screen are never dead in Filoni or in Disney Star Wars, apparently. Filoni doesn't kill off named characters as a general rule. Kanan is a notable change, and that's why I made this video. As for saying that killing off main characters wouldn't work because it would ruin arcs, that's also nonsense. The arcs can be constructed around or with the deaths in mind. Writers literally do this all the time. Death is, in fact, a major writing tool for developing arcs, not interfering with them. I could point to countless examples of deaths furthering the plot and character development. And, in fact, I point to one such instance in this video.
I totally agree. It's also my favourite show, and I've watched pretty much everything star wars (except resistance), I just found Rebels so easy and enjoyable to watch and connect with and I preferred the smaller, close knit main characters rather than switching perspectives like Clone Wars did. I am a HUGE sucker for found family storylines, and that's what Rebels was for me, a Star Wars found family story set at the very start of the Rebellion! And I do agree that you shouldn't compare the two, as Clone Wars was more of an expansion on the prequels rather than it's own story. It makes me sad that Rebels doesn't get the love I think it deserved, just because it has a different look and story and concept. As a star wars story, it stands alone and makes it's mark as any of the other stories do. I think that it's one of the best pieces of star wars media, but that's just me. I understand not everyone wants to watch an animated show, and that's okay. (Hope this made sense, I really wanted to add to this but I'm also trying to multitask haha)
My favorite dave filoni chracter is probably the grand inquisitor (even though i think they screwed him over by having a former jedi master lose to a padwan) because his design, personality, fighting style and music
Great choice! I love Jason Isaacs, so I am right there with you. He had quite the presence in the show and could actually appear threatening from time to time. But yes, I agree that they screwed him over.
While I'm old enough to have seen the first Star Wars film on opening night, I'm in a similar boat. With the exception that I was aware of 'The Clone Wars' much earlier on. Saw it, considered it pretty mediocre and moved on. When I first started watching 'Rebels' though, it had been long since finished so I had a good idea on what to expect from it. Yeah you're right on. It really ain't all that good even at its best. Compared to 'The Clone Wars', though, I was pleasantly surprised by the lesser amount of filler, somewhat more likeable characters with more natural and believable interactions and more consistent storytelling. Of course, it still reeks of plot armor, poorly executed concepts that the show, heck the whole franchise would be better off without and member berries galore. Which is my main issue with Star Wars in its current state, honestly. Yet 'Rebels' has this certain something to it that I like. 'The Clone Wars tried and failed to show a galaxy spanning conflict, something that had already been done, and better, nearly twenty years ago by the late Genndy Tartakovsky. 'Rebels' focused on much smaller, self contained adventures and I think it does a fair job at doing so.
I absolutely agree! Rebels felt much more human and relatable. I felt I knew the main cast far better than any of the characters from the Clone Wars despite (technically) having the movies and another TV show to establish those characters.
TCW did a far better job than Tartakovsky. A better Anakin, more plot, more action, and focused on the two main Jedi and one new one as opposed to non-entities like Luminara, Mundi, and so on. Also, the clones are actual people, as opposed to stoic robots made of meat instead of metal.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 A better Anakin? Sure I guess. If by better you mean reductive and swappable. More plot and action? Well that's a given with each feature length. Both were dumbed down and exaggerated massively though The clones, ok, that one comes down to preference the most. I certainly liked them better when they didn't crack jokes all the time and find it funny how "meat robots" is precisely what they became due to their brain chip.
@@thepartydontstoptilliwalkin And in Tartokovsky's show, they were robotic all the time, not just when Palpatine used his override. If they were just that, they wouldn't be skilled soldiers, which is the whole point of them Also, tell me this: Grievous debuts a couple months into the war, the report on him shifts to how they need replacement Jedi as fast as possible, everyone agrees Anakin should be the first to get an early promotion...and we are supposed to believe that only happened two years later? It makes far more sense for him to be promoted at the start as opposed to at the end. And giving him a padawan to train is also about training him. And, what, it's unbelievable he'd have learned from his mistakes in AOTC? As for General Grievous, oh no, the animation style is different so he isn't as fast. He's an actual character as opposed to a monster the heroes run from at every turn. That's who he was in ROTS, just as George intended.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 "And we are supposed to believe that only happened two years later?" Why not? The whole war only lasted three years anyway. As for his padawan, I find it hard to believe the council would trust "Skyguy" (kill me) with their garbage, let alone his own student, but your username renders any discussion on that topic pointless I wager. And you cannot tell me with a straight face that TCW Grievous is anything close to a character and not the cartoony, one dimensional buffoon who runs from padawans and clones at every turn that ROTS made him out to be and TCW doubled down on.
Rebels was a downgrade and the start of Star Wars downfall. To childish, a lot of plot holes, no wars. Ezra and Sabine destroyed the show. Time travel breaks the Lore. Ahsoka stills sucks. Rebels should pick elements from the comics Star Wars: Rebellion, Star Wars: Empire and Star Wars: Purge and Star Wars Force Unsleashed. But instead Filoni made a dumb series with flying copters. Happy New Year m8! God bless you If i wrote Rebels, all protagonists would die in the end. The Rebels would lose most times and they always running (because thats what OT stated... Luke is the Hope, before ep IV the Rebellion was too weak and have major losses). A lot of Wars. Something like Rogue One. No Inquisitors, only Vader a killing machine hunting the Jedi one by one. No Ezra, Sabine and others...only Kanan and Hera.
I'd argue that the Clone Wars TV series was the start of the Star Wars downfall as it was considerably more childish than the Prequels (though not as childish as Rebels, for sure). But, then again, the Prequels were, in many ways, more childish than the Original Trilogy. Yet, if you ask me, the beginning of Star War's downfall can be traced all the way back to the Ewoks. Return of the Jedi made an obvious shift to add specifically child friendly elements which, in my opinion, cheapened the threat of the Empire greatly and brought down the tone of the film (I still adore that film, it's my favorite one, but I can't get over the Ewoks). Each mainstream iteration of Star Wars since has added more childish tones. There are, of course, saving graces every now and again, but it's an overall downward trajectory as I see it. Yet, absolutely, the childishness hit a new high with Rebels! Certainly if it had taken more from the comics and the EU, or if it had just respected its audience and understood that children too can understand good storytelling and don't need everything bubble wrapped, it would have been much better. And Happy New Year to you too! And God bless. Hope it's a great time. Your version of Rebels sounds much better and is certainly much more accurate to the Original Trilogy. Prior to Episode 2 and 3 coming out, I thought Episode 2 would be about Anakin's fall and Episode 3 would be about Vader hunting down and killing the Jedi. As it is, I'm still waiting for a mainstream version of that Vader plot! I think it would be very exciting to see a whole series devoted to it as you suggest. And I wouldn't mind characters aside from Kanan and Hera as long as they're well written. They don't all need to die off either (though Jedi characters certainly should for continuity) as long as they have good arcs and the threat of the Empire remains.
My favorite Dave Filoni character might be the Grand Inquisitor. He lost to Kanan, true, but at no point in Season 1 did it feel like he was easily beatable like the other antagonists. Even when his plans are ruined, like that time when he fought Ezra, Kanan and a bunch of wolves, it's still abundantly clear that no one in the main cast stands any chance against him. A fight with the Grand Inquisitor is a fight the heroes have to run away from. Not only that, but compared to the other Inquisitors, he has personality, presence, and is recognizable. Like Dooku, the stylish way in which he fights combined with his facial expressions tell a lot about him. He's arrogant, he believes in his experience, and he likes to toy around less experienced Jedi before destroying them. The way I could describe his fighting style is that he is, essentially, a wicked version of a teacher, toying with his students to highlight all their mistakes. (as a former fencer, that brings back memories!) And unlike the other Inquisitors, it's easy to believe he actually killed Jedi before. His defeat isn't the most satisfying, but Star Wars has a habit of giving characters - villains especially - unsatisfying demises. Also, worthy of note; a banger theme song. The other possibility is Cad Bane. he's simple, he's cool, he's fun, and he's efficient. He's neither underdevelopped nor overdevelopped proportionately to what he is supposed to be. He's just a plain cool antagonist you can look forward to seeing in any arc.
The Grand Inquisitor is an excellent choice. He was taken more seriously than the other inquisitors and most of Filoni's villains. Having Jason Issacs voice him also helps, haha! There were actual stakes with him. I know a lot of people who like Cad Bane. I could never get into his character because he's too conveniently OP. Like how did he defeat two Jedi in a fist fight?
Change my mind: Rebels should have been an anthology series like Clone Wars, with many more characters, and familiar characters like Rex, Ahsoka, Leia, and Bail Organa playing a bigger role. Also, I wouldn't really compare Ezra to Ahsoka - Ahsoka had much more training and yet Ezra seemed to be a lot more OP. I didn't find either of them annoying, and I fully understood why Ahsoka earned her respect (as she was a genuinely kind and brave person who was skilled at combat and had a good sense of humor). I feel the action scenes weren't as convincing as Clone Wars, but I actually loved the light tone and good humor. The original trilogy, and other action shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender all had reasonably light tones with a good amount of humor, yet they were quite emotional. I enjoyed Rebels ... if I consider it non-canon. They did Rex and Ahsoka dirty in this series and didn't focus enough on the rebellion at large, instead only focusing on our Ghost crew. And don't even get me started on the Time Travel and Space Whales ...
I don't need/want to change your mind. I'm happy that you enjoyed the Clone Wars and like Ahsoka. These are just my thoughts and I'm happy to hear yours. But, if you'd like my thoughts on your thoughts, here they are. I think Rebels did much better than the Clone Wars because it had fewer characters. I feel I know the Rebels' cast much better because we see them in more settings more consistently. We also see them more vulnerable than TCW crew. My comparison between Ezra and Ahsoka is just in the basic sense. I strongly disagree that Ahsoka was genuinely kind. She is one of the most selfish good guys in Star Wars. There are so many examples of this that it would be easier for me to recommend a friend's video on the topic if you'd like more details. As for being brave, I'd say it's more glory-seeking and battle hungry. Again, many examples and a potential video link should you want one. As for Ahsoka's style of humor, humor is very subjective, so not much I can say. I don't often like humor which is designed to put others down, which is the style Ahsoka goes for. I especially don't like this style when coming from someone who is arrogant (which Ahsoka is very full of herself as evidenced in even her most sincere comments and assumptions [as she continually assumes she is able to overcome whatever challenge Anakin or the other Jedi try to protect her from and, as said before, many other examples aside from that]). Ahsoka certainly has more training than Ezra, however she goes against much more powerful enemies, so that kind of balances out the unreasonable OP status. As said in my video on Ahsoka, someone at the padawan level shouldn't be able to have the same level of success as Obi-Wan Kenobi (one of the best Jedi of the day). I agree that the action in Rebels wasn't as believable. The tone was too light for me, not that I have a problem with lightness, but that it was trivializing. But I prefer the humor, I think, to TCWs.The Original Trilogy certainly did have light tones and good amounts of humor. Sometimes they even had the humor at the expense of the villains (I'm thinking about in A New Hope where Han stumbles upon stormtroopers in the Deathstar and his charge comically turns to a retreat.) Yet even though Han survives this, it still shows the stormtroopers as a threat he can't overcome. And the OT balances the light tones with considerable dark ones, showing the threats are real by showing burned skeletons, bloody severed limbs, and the death of a main character. THAT tone certainly didn't carry over.
@@carolusmagnus1871 I'd argue the tone of the first 2 seasons of Clone Wars was closest to the OT. Some Rebels episodes also came close (I'd argue episodes like Twilight of the Apprentice were darker than the Empire Strikes Back), but most of the episodes were fun and lighthearted. That doesn't make it bad, however - there was still plenty of emotion in the show and some good character development. I don't know how you got the impression of Ahsoka being arrogant and self-centered. Some people considered her annoying (like many young, spirited teenagers are like), but I never got that impression of her! Her sense of humor was mainly her one-liners and jokes she cracked, and in the earlier seasons of Clone Wars, she had a spunky and spirited personality (something that Rebels completely took away from her). She was also defeated a lot of times in Clone Wars and got captured, having to be rescued by various people like Anakin or even R2-D2. Yes, she had a lot of victories, but she had defeats as well. And she took them in stride, learning from her mistakes and growing into a competent and brave leader. Rebels did her dirty by completely taking away her personality, giving her minimal screen time, and writing her out of the show. I liked Rebels - especially the arcs that Hera, Kanan, and Ezra had. I think they were well done. The show was far from perfect - the empire seemed somewhat incompetent, and the stakes weren't as high, but I'm happy they didn't go for a very dark tone like the later seasons of Clone Wars. There were also some very questionable lore decisions like helicopter lightsabers, space whales, and time travel (I just consider them non-canon in my head). But I loved how the characters interacted with each other and formed a good bond. I'd still support an anthology series where the Ghost Crew were major characters like the Domino Squad in Clone Wars (they appeared in many episodes and had good arcs), but we saw much more of other characters like Ahsoka, Leia, and Bail Organa, and the show could have continued for a few more seasons so we see Luke and our familiar crew fighting the empire. Just my two cents, of course not everyone will think this way, but I strongly think Rebels should have shown us much more of the galaxy under the empire (the Agent Kallus arc was one of my favorites) and used more characters.
@@empirestate8791 I think people tend to overestimate the light tones of the OT, but I haven't watched the first 2 seasons of TCW in a long time. They certainly did better at having stakes than Rebels, but the B1 battledroids were made into a joke by that show (even in the early seasons). I know they were never intended to be formidable, but they certainly weren't a joke in TPM. They were meant to be intimidating (if only in numbers). We may have different definitions of "dark tones" because even Twilight of the Apprentice wasn't anywhere near as dark as ESB. Maul was a threatening villain and one of the better parts of Rebels, to be sure. But he was a slow-burn threat. There was a constant question of how much trouble he would be. And then he was thrown off the temple and the threat was dismissed. ESB had a similar slow-burn threat of Han and Leia being captured (though they showed that they were being tortured, which is darker).Then we have Vader who "defeats" the main heroes while the main objective is still completed. Although it's different because in Rebels, Ahsoka merely disappears unseen with people assuming she dies. But, the last we see of her, she's actually doing well for herself, charging into the fight. It's a somber moment mixed with hope and despair. In ESB, we see Luke get brutally defeated and mutilated. Vader is established as an unbeatable foe as he defeated Ben in the first movie and now Luke in the second. He's dominant and winning. No, being lighthearted doesn't make something bad. That's what I'm trying to distinguish. Removing stakes is what's bad. When things are so lighthearted that you remove the threat, then it is bad. There is far less emotion when people are standing around joking while being shot at. We should think it's an emotional situation, but there's no danger, so any emotion is meaningless. You can't be emotionally vulnerable about the trials you face when we see that your trials are nonexistent. That's why Hera's emotional journey is so much more impactful; we see her trial is excruciating.As for character development, as I said, Hera and Kanan have good character development. Zeb has some at the beginning, then is wasted space. Ezra has minimal development. And Sabine goes through the motions of having development without actually having any. Ahsoka is extraordinarily arrogant as she not only insists she's right, but that everyone else is wrong. She puts people down in her arguments, not saying things graciously, but viciously. She constantly tears down Anakin (I'm not talking about her jokes. I know she jokes a lot with him, but even when she's serious, she belittles him constantly). She has no respect for Obi-Wan, Bariss, Luminara, or really anyone she comes across. As for Ahsoka being defeated... not really. Defeats have to cost something to be a true defeat, and Ahsoka never pays a price. There are (very occasional) temporary prices to pay, such as when she falls for a trap and is criticized. Yet then Anakin tells her it's not her fault and there are no consequences. She is also "punished" by having to work guard duty, but then the show immediately undermines this punishment by rewarding her by making her the center of the war story again.She never takes defeats in stride. She complains about them and about the light consequences she must suffer. And then those consequences are taken away immediately and she proudly accepts whatever praise she's given when she should, in no way, be being praised. She absolutely doesn't learn from her mistakes because she makes the same mistakes of defiance, disobedience, and brash violence in every single season of the show. I'm not saying I want dark tones or that only dark toned shows are good. I'm saying that, if I'm going to take a threat seriously, I'm going to need to see consequences from that threat. If the threat doesn't/can't do harm, then it isn't a threat. The characters in Rebels rarely treat the villains as threats. And when they do, they're usually able to quickly overcome them, giving the impression that the threats weren't very severe. The character interactions were definitely the best parts of Rebels as they really seemed like a family. I'd be happy to see more about Leia, Ghost Crew, Bail Organa, and even some from Sabé. She's a cool character in the comics with a lot of potential that I'd like to see explored. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I love Star Wars and am always in the mood to hear more opinions and more stories from that universe.
@@carolusmagnus1871 No problem. I definitely disagree with your characterization of Ahsoka. I think she had some of the best character development in Star Wars, as she went from an inexperienced padawan to a brave and competent leader, and I don't think I ever saw her as arrogant, nor did I see her as disrespecting others (that characterization fits Anakin much more, as he slowly descended to the dark side). Rebels completely took away her personality and seemed to make her a brooding emotional wreck who had barely any screen time and lacked any of the qualities that made her great in Clone Wars. I do love the character interactions in Rebels - they did feel like a family, and I felt that it shouldn't have simply been limited to the ghost crew. In the original movies we saw the fighter pilots had a solid relationship with each others, and the rebels got along well, so we definitely should have seen more Leia, Ahsoka (who should have been a central character for all seasons), Bail Organa, Sabe, and even Cassian Andor (who was a very important spy in the rebel alliance). I agree with you that rebels should have had far more stakes - the empire seemed quite incompetent honestly, and there were too many McGuffins or Ex Machina moments. The plot could have also used some improvement (no space whales or time travel). Hera and Kanan were my favorite characters, as they had the most development (though their romance was poorly done). I loved how Kanan had to deal with his blindness and helped Ezra become a more mature person. As for the tone, if you rewatch the OT, you'll see that it's primarily meant to be a fun, family-friendly, somewhat campy adventure. Even the Empire Strikes Back didn't really have many dark moments besides the whole Luke and Vader thing at the end, and Han & C3P0 were comic relief for much of the movie. And of course, there was Yoda, who lightened the mood. The invasion of Hoth wasn't exactly dark either; sure, the rebels had to flee, but it mostly consisted of generic action scenes, and there wasn't too much dialogue or emotion. A New Hope and Return of the Jedi both had light tones, and I'd argue most of Clone Wars was darker. I agree with you that you don't need to have a dark show to have emotions, but there definitely need to be stakes - something Rebels wasn't particularly good at, given how incompetent the Empire was.
@@empirestate8791 Certainly the OT wasn't a dark trilogy in the sense that, as you said, it was light more often than it was dark. It also was considerably campy. ROTJ was even lighter and campier, setting the tone for later films and tv shows to follow. But it was still serious when it needed to be serious and threatening when it needed to be threatening. The villains themselves are rarely the butt of the joke (the Ewoks being the only example I can think of when the stormtroopers are explicitly made into jokes, and Boba in ROTJ was a joke as well). This attitude towards the villains in ROTJ was, tragically, carried over into TCW and Rebels with most of the villains being rather insignificant at at least one major point. But looking to ANH and ESB, the villains are treated with respect and jokes vanish when they enter the scene. And Dagobah as a whole was a rather dark setting, despite Yoda's comic relief. So, though light and campy, OT Star Wars knew when to get serious. TCW, Rebels, and the Sequel Trilogy don't.
Deep dive into another children’s show like Adventure Time and you’ll find the same flaws. Sometimes people just need to accept some shows are written for children, not 30 year old grown men.
Many, MANY children's shows have the same flaws. In fact, many shows for adults do as well. Yet to say "it's for children" isn't an excuse for bad writing. There's a difference between catering to a younger audience and having poor writing. Good children's shows should be able to hold up to scrutiny. I'm sure you can come up with examples of such kids shows just as I can. Batman, the Animated Series is an easy example. By no means perfect, but certainly holding up better than this.
I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work. The Imperials are presented as buffoons from the start, so when the heroes struggle against them, it feels as if it's not because the bad guys are tough, it's because the good guys are morons. Establishing the bad guys as imbeciles makes any struggle the heroes have with them seem artificial unless the heroes are just that bad at the job. The ending especially rankled me. They had no way to beat Thrawn outside of using a Deus Ex Machina that didn't even look cool or interesting. If all it takes to defeat an Imperial fleet is a novice Force-user with some connection to bloody Space Whales, then Kenobi and Yoda could've defeated the Empire a long time ago by using their expert Force powers to have the Space Whales ambush the Imperial Fleet left and right until they're whittled down to a point where the Rebel fleet can defeat them. The way they elevate threats felt artificial. Tarkin shouldn't have shown up until Season 3 or 4; he outranks VADER of all people. It should've started with the local Moff sending regular Imperial Army soldiers after the heroes, then they'd send some battle-hardened Stormtroopers, possibly led by a clone who killed a Jedi in Order 66. Then they'd hire Bounty Hunters and bring in ISB agents and Inquisitors to go after the heroes, then once the heroes beat all of them, only then would Vader and Tarkin take notice. Only then would they send Thrawn in after all conventional options have been thoroughly exhausted.
Are u forgetting that Ezra was a Jedi. Rebels has the best storyline out of all of the animated shows. And Rey had like 2 days training and was able to kick kylo rens butt so…. Whoever made this video has no taste.
100% agree. Rebels had 1 brilliant cohesive storyline and Jedi are nutoriously known for being very powerful thanks to their connection to the force. Ezra is very strong with the force and it guides him, multiple times, throughout the show. We physically see it. And the whole Maul being beat by a Padawan situation is bullshit. Almost everytime we see Kanan he's meditating and strenghtening his connection with the force. The force guides Jedi. Maul was a sith and gets overrun by hatred and anger, while Kanan is able to focus and connect. Another note is that Rebels has one of the most important duels of all time, between Ahsoka and Vader. It's very emotional and shows how powerful Ahsoka is too. So yeah, I agree with you. 100%
LEGIT The show would'nt have worked if it weren't for Zeb being there. He's the one who turned Kallus back from the Empire. He's the one who reclaimed Lira San. He's the one who gets them out of so many situations its unreal. Zeb is a very important and amazing character and I really like him.
I can't really think of anything to say, but have one for the algorithm.
Rebels and TCW always had the opposite strengths and weaknesses from one another. TCW was more innovative and technically sophisticated, while Rebels has the advantage of telling one cohesive story.
I grew up with TCW but over the years and the more I learned about legends the more I began to see the damage Dave filoni did with the retcons and contradictions especially after I reuniting with the clone wars Micoseries.
Kanan beating Maul with minimal effort.
But the lengths filoni went to save ahsoka I stopped taking him seriously.
Respawn's jedi series perfectly captures how a padawan is and devs don't make you forget you are a padawan level character even after reconnecting with the force.
To be fair TCW did have great animations and artstyle in later seasons especially the lightsaber duels.
In Rebels the duels were fine but it's difficult to take the likes of Kanan seriously beating the grand inquisitor only to lose to his lessers. At least he doesn't overstay his welcome.
I wish it had the level of brutality and reality the clone wars and Andor have. It's too wishy-washy and gives too much focus on a single rebel cell. Overall if you just watch 15-20 essential episodes (skip the rest) it makes the series more meaningful and realistic. The episodes with Saw Gerrera, Ashoka, Yavin IV, and Maul were awesome.
I mostly agree with you. The brutality could certainly have been toned up and many of the episodes are completely skippable.
I would, however, disagree about the show focusing too much on a single rebel cell.
Though an anthology show about the various rebel cells would be interesting, I also enjoyed that we stayed with these characters longer, thus getting to know them better.
2:24 Of course she's better than Saxon, she's a Force-Sensitive, unlike him. We saw it repeatedly hinted at in the show itself, and Ahsoka confirms it. Besides, Saxon never did anything that impressive to begin with, while Sabine was confirmed to be a child genius and skilled warrior even before she fought him.
Being Force-Sensitive doesn't automatically make you better than someone else. Jango Fett, who isn't Force-Sensitive, killed many skilled Jedi and even went toe to toe with Obi-Wan Kenobi, a future member of the High Council.
@@carolusmagnus1871 And we never saw Saxon do anything worth praising, unlike Jango and Sabine. We never saw Luminara do anything worth praising when she fought Ventress, while we had seen a weighed down Ahsoka kill three Magnaguards. Being Jedi Master means she either did something truly exceptional, or trained a Padawan into a Knight, and the answer for Luminara is never revealed. Being the Imperial front man for Mandalore just means Saxon is a willing minion, nothing more. Sabine is a one-woman army and technical genius before turning nineteen, and she's Force Sensitive. No contest.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 You're quite conveniently ignoring my argument which is that a Ahsoka and Sabine are children. And Saxon and Luminara have proven themselves by being war veterans. Luminara was a successful and prominent general in the Clone Wars. Saxon was a war veteran from the Clone Wars who appears as one of Maul's top goons in TCW, so it absolutely does show him doing something "praiseworthy."
And "she's Force Sensitive" isn't an explanation. Seriously, you need to stop using it. Being Force Sensitive doesn't automatically make you the best of the best. There are plenty of Force Sensitives who get absolutely decimated by non-Force Sensitives. If you don't like my Jango example as he's too notorious, how about the countless unnamed Jedi who have been bested by countless unnamed Mandalorians? Mandalorians are known for being extremely powerful and Gar Saxon is said to be one of the best. Sabine being a technical genius doesn't make her a good fighter. And her being a "one-woman army" doesn't negate the fact that Gar Saxon is also supposed to be a "one-man army".
@@carolusmagnus1871 Saxon has never been shown fighting a dozen Jumptroopers alone while his allies are also swarmed.
In ATLA S1, we meet Admiral Zhao, an officer who's risen to the top of the Fire Navy and is said to be a Master Firebender by Iroh out of Zuko's, and by extension Aang's, league. He loses every fight he's in, and neither Zuko or Aang have much trouble doing so. In the season finale, we meet Hahn, who's supposed to be the greatest warrior in the Northern Water Tribe. He's pretty forgetful of important information, and he dies because his target sidestepped him.
Both these guys were exactly the same as Saxon: arrogant bullies who thought they were tough and that their enemies were too far beneath them to be a threat. Which means they are only dangerous when they resort to dishonorable tactics and/or throwing a bunch of goons at their adversary. When neither is an option, they crumble fairly easily. And I never heard anyone say Saxon was some great warrior or brilliant commander.
I personally really enjoyed Rebels and it's by far my favourite Star Wars show. I really don't think it should be compared to Clone Wars at all, as they are both incredibly different. Clone Wars has a bigger picture, focuses on lots of different things (Jedi Order, Mandalore, Training, War). It's arcs are also inconsistent and have to be put together like a puzzle. Rebels however, has one consistent storyline focusing on the one small Rebel cell. Which people seem to complain about, but it's literally the point of the show. Focusing on the Ghost Crew.
It's a totally different style from everything else within Star Wars. Everything from Animation style to full blown character arcs are in a different style. It's different. And that throws people off a lot, which i don't blame them for, as i was thrown off at the beginning aswell. But i grew to really like it and became attatched to all the characters.
And the whole 'Filoni style people with names don't die' is bullshit for many reasons. First off if the people with names DID die at certain points, it would ruin the whole arc. If the arc revolves around a character, that character can't die. Second of all, FIloni literally killed 2 main charatcers in a season. (Well, technically Ezra didn't die but he sure as hell disappeared for years). Not too often that happens in a show, especially a quote on quote "kids show". It really did take me by surpirse when Kanan died.
Anyway, i could go on for another hour about how much i like Rebels and how it does have a storyline and characters are important but i won't tire your eyes :)
I'm not sure why you're talking about comparing Rebels to the Clone Wars. That's not what this video is about. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything you said about comparing the two shows. They're very different in that one is an anthology while the other follows a single group of characters.
Yes, I mention the Clone Wars in this video, but not as a comparison between the genres. I compare Ahsoka to Ezra and Sabine, but that's a character-to-character comparison. I compare the lack of stakes, but, again, that's nothing to do with the genres, but with an overarching theme in Filoni's writing.
And Filoni doesn't harm named characters. Saying Ezra's disappearance is equivalent to a death is ridiculous. If he, as a main character, disappeared in the middle of a season, then MAYBE. But he disappeared at the end of the entire show. That's not equivalent to a death because there's only about five minutes without him in it and they're talking about finding him. And think about it. How are named characters treated when they disappear off screen? Maul falls to his death on Malachor, but wait, no, he's fine. Well, Ahsoka disappears, locked away with Darth Vader, surely she's dead, right? Nope. Time itself is altered to save her. Disappearing doesn't equal death. People who "die" off screen are never dead in Filoni or in Disney Star Wars, apparently. Filoni doesn't kill off named characters as a general rule. Kanan is a notable change, and that's why I made this video.
As for saying that killing off main characters wouldn't work because it would ruin arcs, that's also nonsense. The arcs can be constructed around or with the deaths in mind. Writers literally do this all the time. Death is, in fact, a major writing tool for developing arcs, not interfering with them. I could point to countless examples of deaths furthering the plot and character development. And, in fact, I point to one such instance in this video.
I totally agree. It's also my favourite show, and I've watched pretty much everything star wars (except resistance), I just found Rebels so easy and enjoyable to watch and connect with and I preferred the smaller, close knit main characters rather than switching perspectives like Clone Wars did. I am a HUGE sucker for found family storylines, and that's what Rebels was for me, a Star Wars found family story set at the very start of the Rebellion!
And I do agree that you shouldn't compare the two, as Clone Wars was more of an expansion on the prequels rather than it's own story. It makes me sad that Rebels doesn't get the love I think it deserved, just because it has a different look and story and concept. As a star wars story, it stands alone and makes it's mark as any of the other stories do. I think that it's one of the best pieces of star wars media, but that's just me. I understand not everyone wants to watch an animated show, and that's okay. (Hope this made sense, I really wanted to add to this but I'm also trying to multitask haha)
The title made me think you were gonna say how good the show is as in it works so it’s good
My favorite dave filoni chracter is probably the grand inquisitor (even though i think they screwed him over by having a former jedi master lose to a padwan) because his design, personality, fighting style and music
Great choice! I love Jason Isaacs, so I am right there with you. He had quite the presence in the show and could actually appear threatening from time to time. But yes, I agree that they screwed him over.
While I'm old enough to have seen the first Star Wars film on opening night, I'm in a similar boat. With the exception that I was aware of 'The Clone Wars' much earlier on. Saw it, considered it pretty mediocre and moved on.
When I first started watching 'Rebels' though, it had been long since finished so I had a good idea on what to expect from it.
Yeah you're right on. It really ain't all that good even at its best. Compared to 'The Clone Wars', though, I was pleasantly surprised by the lesser amount of filler, somewhat more likeable characters with more natural and believable interactions and more consistent storytelling.
Of course, it still reeks of plot armor, poorly executed concepts that the show, heck the whole franchise would be better off without and member berries galore. Which is my main issue with Star Wars in its current state, honestly.
Yet 'Rebels' has this certain something to it that I like.
'The Clone Wars tried and failed to show a galaxy spanning conflict, something that had already been done, and better, nearly twenty years ago by the late Genndy Tartakovsky. 'Rebels' focused on much smaller, self contained adventures and I think it does a fair job at doing so.
I absolutely agree! Rebels felt much more human and relatable. I felt I knew the main cast far better than any of the characters from the Clone Wars despite (technically) having the movies and another TV show to establish those characters.
TCW did a far better job than Tartakovsky. A better Anakin, more plot, more action, and focused on the two main Jedi and one new one as opposed to non-entities like Luminara, Mundi, and so on. Also, the clones are actual people, as opposed to stoic robots made of meat instead of metal.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 A better Anakin? Sure I guess. If by better you mean reductive and swappable.
More plot and action? Well that's a given with each feature length. Both were dumbed down and exaggerated massively though
The clones, ok, that one comes down to preference the most. I certainly liked them better when they didn't crack jokes all the time and find it funny how "meat robots" is precisely what they became due to their brain chip.
@@thepartydontstoptilliwalkin And in Tartokovsky's show, they were robotic all the time, not just when Palpatine used his override. If they were just that, they wouldn't be skilled soldiers, which is the whole point of them
Also, tell me this: Grievous debuts a couple months into the war, the report on him shifts to how they need replacement Jedi as fast as possible, everyone agrees Anakin should be the first to get an early promotion...and we are supposed to believe that only happened two years later?
It makes far more sense for him to be promoted at the start as opposed to at the end. And giving him a padawan to train is also about training him. And, what, it's unbelievable he'd have learned from his mistakes in AOTC?
As for General Grievous, oh no, the animation style is different so he isn't as fast. He's an actual character as opposed to a monster the heroes run from at every turn. That's who he was in ROTS, just as George intended.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 "And we are supposed to believe that only happened two years later?"
Why not? The whole war only lasted three years anyway.
As for his padawan, I find it hard to believe the council would trust "Skyguy" (kill me) with their garbage, let alone his own student, but your username renders any discussion on that topic pointless I wager.
And you cannot tell me with a straight face that TCW Grievous is anything close to a character and not the cartoony, one dimensional buffoon who runs from padawans and clones at every turn that ROTS made him out to be and TCW doubled down on.
Rebels was a downgrade and the start of Star Wars downfall. To childish, a lot of plot holes, no wars. Ezra and Sabine destroyed the show.
Time travel breaks the Lore. Ahsoka stills sucks.
Rebels should pick elements from the comics Star Wars: Rebellion, Star Wars: Empire and Star Wars: Purge and Star Wars Force Unsleashed. But instead Filoni made a dumb series with flying copters.
Happy New Year m8! God bless you
If i wrote Rebels, all protagonists would die in the end. The Rebels would lose most times and they always running (because thats what OT stated... Luke is the Hope, before ep IV the Rebellion was too weak and have major losses). A lot of Wars. Something like Rogue One. No Inquisitors, only Vader a killing machine hunting the Jedi one by one.
No Ezra, Sabine and others...only Kanan and Hera.
I'd argue that the Clone Wars TV series was the start of the Star Wars downfall as it was considerably more childish than the Prequels (though not as childish as Rebels, for sure). But, then again, the Prequels were, in many ways, more childish than the Original Trilogy. Yet, if you ask me, the beginning of Star War's downfall can be traced all the way back to the Ewoks. Return of the Jedi made an obvious shift to add specifically child friendly elements which, in my opinion, cheapened the threat of the Empire greatly and brought down the tone of the film (I still adore that film, it's my favorite one, but I can't get over the Ewoks).
Each mainstream iteration of Star Wars since has added more childish tones. There are, of course, saving graces every now and again, but it's an overall downward trajectory as I see it.
Yet, absolutely, the childishness hit a new high with Rebels! Certainly if it had taken more from the comics and the EU, or if it had just respected its audience and understood that children too can understand good storytelling and don't need everything bubble wrapped, it would have been much better.
And Happy New Year to you too! And God bless. Hope it's a great time.
Your version of Rebels sounds much better and is certainly much more accurate to the Original Trilogy. Prior to Episode 2 and 3 coming out, I thought Episode 2 would be about Anakin's fall and Episode 3 would be about Vader hunting down and killing the Jedi. As it is, I'm still waiting for a mainstream version of that Vader plot! I think it would be very exciting to see a whole series devoted to it as you suggest.
And I wouldn't mind characters aside from Kanan and Hera as long as they're well written. They don't all need to die off either (though Jedi characters certainly should for continuity) as long as they have good arcs and the threat of the Empire remains.
My favorite Dave Filoni character might be the Grand Inquisitor. He lost to Kanan, true, but at no point in Season 1 did it feel like he was easily beatable like the other antagonists. Even when his plans are ruined, like that time when he fought Ezra, Kanan and a bunch of wolves, it's still abundantly clear that no one in the main cast stands any chance against him. A fight with the Grand Inquisitor is a fight the heroes have to run away from.
Not only that, but compared to the other Inquisitors, he has personality, presence, and is recognizable. Like Dooku, the stylish way in which he fights combined with his facial expressions tell a lot about him. He's arrogant, he believes in his experience, and he likes to toy around less experienced Jedi before destroying them. The way I could describe his fighting style is that he is, essentially, a wicked version of a teacher, toying with his students to highlight all their mistakes. (as a former fencer, that brings back memories!)
And unlike the other Inquisitors, it's easy to believe he actually killed Jedi before. His defeat isn't the most satisfying, but Star Wars has a habit of giving characters - villains especially - unsatisfying demises. Also, worthy of note; a banger theme song.
The other possibility is Cad Bane. he's simple, he's cool, he's fun, and he's efficient. He's neither underdevelopped nor overdevelopped proportionately to what he is supposed to be. He's just a plain cool antagonist you can look forward to seeing in any arc.
The Grand Inquisitor is an excellent choice. He was taken more seriously than the other inquisitors and most of Filoni's villains. Having Jason Issacs voice him also helps, haha! There were actual stakes with him.
I know a lot of people who like Cad Bane. I could never get into his character because he's too conveniently OP. Like how did he defeat two Jedi in a fist fight?
Rebels feels all over the place and underwhelming. Clone Wars is the only piece of animated Star Wars I like.
I think u got it backwards bud
Change my mind: Rebels should have been an anthology series like Clone Wars, with many more characters, and familiar characters like Rex, Ahsoka, Leia, and Bail Organa playing a bigger role. Also, I wouldn't really compare Ezra to Ahsoka - Ahsoka had much more training and yet Ezra seemed to be a lot more OP. I didn't find either of them annoying, and I fully understood why Ahsoka earned her respect (as she was a genuinely kind and brave person who was skilled at combat and had a good sense of humor). I feel the action scenes weren't as convincing as Clone Wars, but I actually loved the light tone and good humor. The original trilogy, and other action shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender all had reasonably light tones with a good amount of humor, yet they were quite emotional. I enjoyed Rebels ... if I consider it non-canon. They did Rex and Ahsoka dirty in this series and didn't focus enough on the rebellion at large, instead only focusing on our Ghost crew. And don't even get me started on the Time Travel and Space Whales ...
I don't need/want to change your mind. I'm happy that you enjoyed the Clone Wars and like Ahsoka. These are just my thoughts and I'm happy to hear yours.
But, if you'd like my thoughts on your thoughts, here they are.
I think Rebels did much better than the Clone Wars because it had fewer characters. I feel I know the Rebels' cast much better because we see them in more settings more consistently. We also see them more vulnerable than TCW crew.
My comparison between Ezra and Ahsoka is just in the basic sense. I strongly disagree that Ahsoka was genuinely kind. She is one of the most selfish good guys in Star Wars. There are so many examples of this that it would be easier for me to recommend a friend's video on the topic if you'd like more details. As for being brave, I'd say it's more glory-seeking and battle hungry. Again, many examples and a potential video link should you want one.
As for Ahsoka's style of humor, humor is very subjective, so not much I can say. I don't often like humor which is designed to put others down, which is the style Ahsoka goes for. I especially don't like this style when coming from someone who is arrogant (which Ahsoka is very full of herself as evidenced in even her most sincere comments and assumptions [as she continually assumes she is able to overcome whatever challenge Anakin or the other Jedi try to protect her from and, as said before, many other examples aside from that]).
Ahsoka certainly has more training than Ezra, however she goes against much more powerful enemies, so that kind of balances out the unreasonable OP status. As said in my video on Ahsoka, someone at the padawan level shouldn't be able to have the same level of success as Obi-Wan Kenobi (one of the best Jedi of the day).
I agree that the action in Rebels wasn't as believable. The tone was too light for me, not that I have a problem with lightness, but that it was trivializing. But I prefer the humor, I think, to TCWs.The Original Trilogy certainly did have light tones and good amounts of humor. Sometimes they even had the humor at the expense of the villains (I'm thinking about in A New Hope where Han stumbles upon stormtroopers in the Deathstar and his charge comically turns to a retreat.) Yet even though Han survives this, it still shows the stormtroopers as a threat he can't overcome. And the OT balances the light tones with considerable dark ones, showing the threats are real by showing burned skeletons, bloody severed limbs, and the death of a main character. THAT tone certainly didn't carry over.
@@carolusmagnus1871 I'd argue the tone of the first 2 seasons of Clone Wars was closest to the OT. Some Rebels episodes also came close (I'd argue episodes like Twilight of the Apprentice were darker than the Empire Strikes Back), but most of the episodes were fun and lighthearted. That doesn't make it bad, however - there was still plenty of emotion in the show and some good character development.
I don't know how you got the impression of Ahsoka being arrogant and self-centered. Some people considered her annoying (like many young, spirited teenagers are like), but I never got that impression of her! Her sense of humor was mainly her one-liners and jokes she cracked, and in the earlier seasons of Clone Wars, she had a spunky and spirited personality (something that Rebels completely took away from her). She was also defeated a lot of times in Clone Wars and got captured, having to be rescued by various people like Anakin or even R2-D2. Yes, she had a lot of victories, but she had defeats as well. And she took them in stride, learning from her mistakes and growing into a competent and brave leader. Rebels did her dirty by completely taking away her personality, giving her minimal screen time, and writing her out of the show.
I liked Rebels - especially the arcs that Hera, Kanan, and Ezra had. I think they were well done. The show was far from perfect - the empire seemed somewhat incompetent, and the stakes weren't as high, but I'm happy they didn't go for a very dark tone like the later seasons of Clone Wars. There were also some very questionable lore decisions like helicopter lightsabers, space whales, and time travel (I just consider them non-canon in my head). But I loved how the characters interacted with each other and formed a good bond. I'd still support an anthology series where the Ghost Crew were major characters like the Domino Squad in Clone Wars (they appeared in many episodes and had good arcs), but we saw much more of other characters like Ahsoka, Leia, and Bail Organa, and the show could have continued for a few more seasons so we see Luke and our familiar crew fighting the empire. Just my two cents, of course not everyone will think this way, but I strongly think Rebels should have shown us much more of the galaxy under the empire (the Agent Kallus arc was one of my favorites) and used more characters.
@@empirestate8791 I think people tend to overestimate the light tones of the OT, but I haven't watched the first 2 seasons of TCW in a long time. They certainly did better at having stakes than Rebels, but the B1 battledroids were made into a joke by that show (even in the early seasons). I know they were never intended to be formidable, but they certainly weren't a joke in TPM. They were meant to be intimidating (if only in numbers).
We may have different definitions of "dark tones" because even Twilight of the Apprentice wasn't anywhere near as dark as ESB. Maul was a threatening villain and one of the better parts of Rebels, to be sure. But he was a slow-burn threat. There was a constant question of how much trouble he would be. And then he was thrown off the temple and the threat was dismissed. ESB had a similar slow-burn threat of Han and Leia being captured (though they showed that they were being tortured, which is darker).Then we have Vader who "defeats" the main heroes while the main objective is still completed. Although it's different because in Rebels, Ahsoka merely disappears unseen with people assuming she dies. But, the last we see of her, she's actually doing well for herself, charging into the fight. It's a somber moment mixed with hope and despair. In ESB, we see Luke get brutally defeated and mutilated. Vader is established as an unbeatable foe as he defeated Ben in the first movie and now Luke in the second. He's dominant and winning.
No, being lighthearted doesn't make something bad. That's what I'm trying to distinguish. Removing stakes is what's bad. When things are so lighthearted that you remove the threat, then it is bad.
There is far less emotion when people are standing around joking while being shot at. We should think it's an emotional situation, but there's no danger, so any emotion is meaningless. You can't be emotionally vulnerable about the trials you face when we see that your trials are nonexistent. That's why Hera's emotional journey is so much more impactful; we see her trial is excruciating.As for character development, as I said, Hera and Kanan have good character development. Zeb has some at the beginning, then is wasted space. Ezra has minimal development. And Sabine goes through the motions of having development without actually having any.
Ahsoka is extraordinarily arrogant as she not only insists she's right, but that everyone else is wrong. She puts people down in her arguments, not saying things graciously, but viciously. She constantly tears down Anakin (I'm not talking about her jokes. I know she jokes a lot with him, but even when she's serious, she belittles him constantly). She has no respect for Obi-Wan, Bariss, Luminara, or really anyone she comes across.
As for Ahsoka being defeated... not really. Defeats have to cost something to be a true defeat, and Ahsoka never pays a price. There are (very occasional) temporary prices to pay, such as when she falls for a trap and is criticized. Yet then Anakin tells her it's not her fault and there are no consequences. She is also "punished" by having to work guard duty, but then the show immediately undermines this punishment by rewarding her by making her the center of the war story again.She never takes defeats in stride. She complains about them and about the light consequences she must suffer. And then those consequences are taken away immediately and she proudly accepts whatever praise she's given when she should, in no way, be being praised. She absolutely doesn't learn from her mistakes because she makes the same mistakes of defiance, disobedience, and brash violence in every single season of the show.
I'm not saying I want dark tones or that only dark toned shows are good. I'm saying that, if I'm going to take a threat seriously, I'm going to need to see consequences from that threat. If the threat doesn't/can't do harm, then it isn't a threat. The characters in Rebels rarely treat the villains as threats. And when they do, they're usually able to quickly overcome them, giving the impression that the threats weren't very severe.
The character interactions were definitely the best parts of Rebels as they really seemed like a family.
I'd be happy to see more about Leia, Ghost Crew, Bail Organa, and even some from Sabé. She's a cool character in the comics with a lot of potential that I'd like to see explored.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I love Star Wars and am always in the mood to hear more opinions and more stories from that universe.
@@carolusmagnus1871 No problem. I definitely disagree with your characterization of Ahsoka. I think she had some of the best character development in Star Wars, as she went from an inexperienced padawan to a brave and competent leader, and I don't think I ever saw her as arrogant, nor did I see her as disrespecting others (that characterization fits Anakin much more, as he slowly descended to the dark side). Rebels completely took away her personality and seemed to make her a brooding emotional wreck who had barely any screen time and lacked any of the qualities that made her great in Clone Wars. I do love the character interactions in Rebels - they did feel like a family, and I felt that it shouldn't have simply been limited to the ghost crew. In the original movies we saw the fighter pilots had a solid relationship with each others, and the rebels got along well, so we definitely should have seen more Leia, Ahsoka (who should have been a central character for all seasons), Bail Organa, Sabe, and even Cassian Andor (who was a very important spy in the rebel alliance). I agree with you that rebels should have had far more stakes - the empire seemed quite incompetent honestly, and there were too many McGuffins or Ex Machina moments. The plot could have also used some improvement (no space whales or time travel). Hera and Kanan were my favorite characters, as they had the most development (though their romance was poorly done). I loved how Kanan had to deal with his blindness and helped Ezra become a more mature person. As for the tone, if you rewatch the OT, you'll see that it's primarily meant to be a fun, family-friendly, somewhat campy adventure. Even the Empire Strikes Back didn't really have many dark moments besides the whole Luke and Vader thing at the end, and Han & C3P0 were comic relief for much of the movie. And of course, there was Yoda, who lightened the mood. The invasion of Hoth wasn't exactly dark either; sure, the rebels had to flee, but it mostly consisted of generic action scenes, and there wasn't too much dialogue or emotion. A New Hope and Return of the Jedi both had light tones, and I'd argue most of Clone Wars was darker. I agree with you that you don't need to have a dark show to have emotions, but there definitely need to be stakes - something Rebels wasn't particularly good at, given how incompetent the Empire was.
@@empirestate8791 Certainly the OT wasn't a dark trilogy in the sense that, as you said, it was light more often than it was dark. It also was considerably campy. ROTJ was even lighter and campier, setting the tone for later films and tv shows to follow. But it was still serious when it needed to be serious and threatening when it needed to be threatening. The villains themselves are rarely the butt of the joke (the Ewoks being the only example I can think of when the stormtroopers are explicitly made into jokes, and Boba in ROTJ was a joke as well). This attitude towards the villains in ROTJ was, tragically, carried over into TCW and Rebels with most of the villains being rather insignificant at at least one major point.
But looking to ANH and ESB, the villains are treated with respect and jokes vanish when they enter the scene. And Dagobah as a whole was a rather dark setting, despite Yoda's comic relief. So, though light and campy, OT Star Wars knew when to get serious. TCW, Rebels, and the Sequel Trilogy don't.
Deep dive into another children’s show like Adventure Time and you’ll find the same flaws. Sometimes people just need to accept some shows are written for children, not 30 year old grown men.
Many, MANY children's shows have the same flaws. In fact, many shows for adults do as well. Yet to say "it's for children" isn't an excuse for bad writing. There's a difference between catering to a younger audience and having poor writing. Good children's shows should be able to hold up to scrutiny. I'm sure you can come up with examples of such kids shows just as I can. Batman, the Animated Series is an easy example. By no means perfect, but certainly holding up better than this.
Garbage show
I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work.
The Imperials are presented as buffoons from the start, so when the heroes struggle against them, it feels as if it's not because the bad guys are tough, it's because the good guys are morons. Establishing the bad guys as imbeciles makes any struggle the heroes have with them seem artificial unless the heroes are just that bad at the job.
The ending especially rankled me. They had no way to beat Thrawn outside of using a Deus Ex Machina that didn't even look cool or interesting. If all it takes to defeat an Imperial fleet is a novice Force-user with some connection to bloody Space Whales, then Kenobi and Yoda could've defeated the Empire a long time ago by using their expert Force powers to have the Space Whales ambush the Imperial Fleet left and right until they're whittled down to a point where the Rebel fleet can defeat them.
The way they elevate threats felt artificial. Tarkin shouldn't have shown up until Season 3 or 4; he outranks VADER of all people. It should've started with the local Moff sending regular Imperial Army soldiers after the heroes, then they'd send some battle-hardened Stormtroopers, possibly led by a clone who killed a Jedi in Order 66. Then they'd hire Bounty Hunters and bring in ISB agents and Inquisitors to go after the heroes, then once the heroes beat all of them, only then would Vader and Tarkin take notice. Only then would they send Thrawn in after all conventional options have been thoroughly exhausted.
Did you even watch my video? I don't think I disagree with anything you said.
Are u forgetting that Ezra was a Jedi. Rebels has the best storyline out of all of the animated shows. And Rey had like 2 days training and was able to kick kylo rens butt so…. Whoever made this video has no taste.
100% agree. Rebels had 1 brilliant cohesive storyline and Jedi are nutoriously known for being very powerful thanks to their connection to the force. Ezra is very strong with the force and it guides him, multiple times, throughout the show. We physically see it. And the whole Maul being beat by a Padawan situation is bullshit. Almost everytime we see Kanan he's meditating and strenghtening his connection with the force. The force guides Jedi. Maul was a sith and gets overrun by hatred and anger, while Kanan is able to focus and connect. Another note is that Rebels has one of the most important duels of all time, between Ahsoka and Vader. It's very emotional and shows how powerful Ahsoka is too. So yeah, I agree with you. 100%
YES! Ezra was not only a jedi but a brilliant one at that! I LOVED watching his development throughout the series and see him grow stronger!
And the show would not have worked if you took any of the characters out
LEGIT The show would'nt have worked if it weren't for Zeb being there. He's the one who turned Kallus back from the Empire. He's the one who reclaimed Lira San. He's the one who gets them out of so many situations its unreal. Zeb is a very important and amazing character and I really like him.