Is the Clone Wars a Kid's Show?
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- The popular consensus is that Star Wars the Clone Wars is a surprisingly mature TV show which elevated storytelling in the minds of many young viewers. In my opinion, it's just the opposite. Thanks to M.E. and Alibi for joining me in this discussion!
Here's their channel, go give them a watch!
/ @imyouralibi6208
Here's where I talk about the writing of Star Wars Rebels
• Why Star Wars Rebels W...
STAR WARS IS NOT JUST FOR THE MEN BUT THE WOMEN AND THE CHILDREN TOO
I HATE THEM!!!! 😠 🤣
When it comes to childrens shows. I use two categories: kids entertainment, and family entertainment. Teletubbies is for kids. The last airbender, star wars, and batman the animated series is family entertainment.
Overall, I agree. I'd just say there's a third, middle category which is kids' entertainment masquerading as family entertainment. The people I've interacted with are convinced that TCW is on the same maturity level as the Last Airbender and Batman the Animated Series, yet I don't see half the depth as in those shows.
@@carolusmagnus1871 Agreed. Your discussion on the seperatists was spot on by the way. Over and over again we see how any droid occupied area suffers and we repeatedly see assassins for the droid army go after members of the republic, like when Dooku, on recording, told ventress to kill that one king In front of yoda. Why not routinly show that recording to everyone every chance you get to make dooku look bad?? Thats just one of many examples.
@@josesosa3337 A really, REALLY good example, too! I'll have to remember that one if I do another video on the topic.
I think it’s simple to say that Star Wars is for everyone
@@Kakaragi I agree
The prequels are good.
You've definitely made some great points about this show clearly being 'for kids', which I can’t deny. I can say with full confidence that almost every episode focusing on C3PO and R2 were basically on the maturity of writing that you'd expect from a Kids show.
However I think there’s one detail that gives this show the leverage that allows people to view it as a good show, which is that it’s semi-Episodic Nature. Thanks to the opening Narration giving a recap on events for every single episode, you can essentially turn on any episode you want and understand it without too much issue. That’s why Gems such as the Umbara Arc, Fives Chip Investigation, or Maul's Entire storyline can be seen with such praise even without the build-up.
It even works in singular episodes that are connected to bad ones, with the prime example being Gregor's story line within the D Squad Arc. A personal example is how I love the Episode *Lair of Grievous* for the idea of being trapped within a sociopath’s funhouse and having to attempt to escape when he hold's all the cards, which I would have to sit through 2 pretty mediocre episodes beforehand if not for Tom Kane recapping them.
My overall point is that there is no denying the Clone Wars is 'for kids', but there is a clear reason why people would view otherwise. Despite every flaw that has been picked up over the show of recent time, I still can say it’s a show I love and would go back to. I left my piece, and shall enjoy what's to come in the overall future!
Being able to just jump in anywhere and know what's going on certainly has its advantages. Unfortunately, it has drawbacks too, such as emotional tones often not carrying over from episode to episode. Like said in the video, torture, military defeats, and emotional conflicts often don't survive the episode they're in.
Obviously this doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable. It is made in small, bite-sized episodes which can all stand on their own. It simply doesn't have the depth a lot of people claim it has.
I'm glad you love the Clone Wars and I'm glad you left your comment!
I don’t think Filoni is as good as people say he is, His writing is about on par with the first two sequels
@breadandcircuses8127 Did you even watch the video?
Like the first 3 words you said.
You don't think
@@sheevinit1490 i bet he didn't watch the entire series either
Somebody can handle other peoples opinions
I really need to take a long look at stuff I remember liking in my youth and start my own review channel. Have one for the algorithm.
I think clone wars pushes the boundaries for a kids show but is still held back from its full potential because it's still technically a kids show.
I would say that The Clone Wars is a show for all ages
Yeah but the CWMMP is not
solid videos. hope you get a viewer decreed pay raise
A nicely done essay. The answer is, of course, yes.
The creators say it is. It has the depth, tone and writing of a kid's cartoon. When it does appear more mature, it never goes all the way. Everybody knows. Even the fans are aware. They just hate admitting it.
I am not a fan of it, but I see how it works as what it is.
@breadandcircuses8127Is this an appeal to popularity fallacy?
The problem I see is that whenever I see someone call something a kids show, they're basically trying to downplay it in some way. Clone Wars for all it's flaws is far from a bad show.
TCW, for its few pros/positives, is far from a good show, or even a legendary show.
@@FMK03 Even I think calling it legendary kinda over hypes it. I still think it's a decent show though.
@@MataNui. I agree, it's a mid/mediocre/decent/okay show at best.
Clone wars was for all the fans I was a kid when these came out and even my father and original trilogy fan loved it. He said it was the best star wars he's seen outside the original 6 films.
TCW/Filoni-stans aren't gonna like this. Great job btw.
This is exactly why I used the first minute of this video to distinguish between a "kid's show" and a show for kids. I have nothing against shows for kids. I have everything against "kid's shows". If you watch my video, I explain the whole thing.
@breadandcircuses8127 someone didnt watch the video
“Unwatchable prequels”??? Whaaaat? I loved the prequels. And honestly growing up I thought everybody did. I only found out that not everybody did once I got on certain social media.
Same. I loved and still love the prequels. They have a lot of problems, but I especially find TPM enjoyable!
@@carolusmagnus1871Oh dude, you scared me. I thought YOU believed they were unwatchable 🤣
@@ECSOrder66 Oh, no no no! I love the Prequels! Just a lot of people I know, specifically the ones who love TCW, don't.
TCW is some of the best of Star Wars and is not “kiddy garbage” it has many adult aspects
While I do think TCW tends to be overhyped by its fans, I think it's more accurate to say it suffers from a lack of consistency rather than the complete absence of any mature or nuanced themes. Certain arcs and episodes paint the violence and its consequences in a decidedly serious tone, such as the Umbara arc, Domino squad episodes, Padawan Lost, and Massacre. I'm not saying there aren't a large amount of childish episodes as well, but the war's depiction being inconsistent doesn't take away from those more serious moments.
The bigger issue I have with this video, though, is the unjustified disparagement of TCW's characterization of its main cast, most notably Anakin. The claim made at 28:50 is very inaccurate, in my opinion, as there are several examples of Anakin not only disagreeing with the Jedi order, but also tapping into anger and hatred in order to protect the people he cares about. Anakin's outburst of violence towards Clovis when he tries to kiss Padme, his torturing of Poggle the lesser to get information, and his similar force choking of Ventress when trying to prove Ashoka's innocence are all moments where Anakin's descent to the dark side is subtlety shown, and not told.
In the prequels, the moral contrast between Anakin and the other Jedi is not shown well at all. Obi-Wan slays Maul and Grievous without a second thought, Windu brutally beheads Jango in front of his son, and yet the audience is supposed to see it as a bad thing when Anakin does the same thing to Dooku. There's just no consistency in the logic there, and to say that Anakin's characterization is better in the prequels than in the clone wars is wildly off-base in my opinion.
I could go into a much longer tangent about how I think the prequels fail at nearly every aspect of storytelling, but the bottom line is that I think it's hypocritical to argue that TCW suffers from a lack of nuance while simultaneously praising the prequels, which are similarly poorly executed when handling mature topics. Padme in particular has absolutely zero intrigue or depth in the prequel movies, she is simply a plot device for motivating Anakin. I prefer the her strong but simple characterization in TCW, she is far more bold and assertive, a bit more like her daughter Leia.
Again, I will concede that TCW is not a masterpiece or even a particularly good show most of the time. But it certainly has more dark moments and more interesting moral themes than the vast majority of kids cartoons, and I don't agree with the distinction that you draw between "shows for kids" and "kids shows". TCW is ultimately a show for kids, but it's also for adults who can accept its childish elements and appreciate its more nuanced ones. Some moments are dark, others are painfully childish, that's just a pitfall you can run into when trying to make a show for all ages. This is just my opinion, but I feel that this video is more so an avenue for you to vent your frustration at the endless amount of praise Clone Wars gets by its fans, rather than being a truly fair and objective analysis.
Jango was shooting at Windu before beheading him. Dooku was literally unarmed and beaten. That's the difference.
A band of brothers style starwars would be awesome
Keep up the good work. Subscribed!
4:07 Well, a couple more of Clone Troopers get beheaded
4:19 I believe Satin got brutal death, but that could be me perhaps?🤷♂️
4:28 And many shows have a Best episodes list. It is frequently no more than a quarter of the total runtime. 8:38 screams of terror as someone is killed gruesomely is enough for most people. 10:56 In the Lonesome Road DLC of Fallout New Vegas, we find the writings of Commander Devlin, who's so obsessed with a war against China that, when the Water Treatment plant needs more funds, he accuses the manager of being a communist spy. Leaving aside comparisons to Dr. Strangelove and the John Birch Society, it's an example of being so obsessed with winning that he forgets why he's trying to win. That's the argument Padme is making.
17:44 which is why the Empire is an acceptable alternative, the whole point of the war. 25:46 In Captain America One, Arnim Zola is made out as a wimpy scientist only reluctantly serving HYDRA. In the Winter Soldier, it turns out that he's a true believer who rebuilt it from scratch, and he was only scared of his immediate superior instead of anything else. Jurgen Voller from Indiana Jones Five is the exact same. Their evil inclinations were always there, and they acted on it, only obeying a greater villain out of fear, just like the Trade Federation. Dooku didn't appear enough to be clear on many things, but we knew he was in league with Sidious and was connected to the Kaminoans, since his Sith name is Tyrannus, Jango's recruiter. 26:20 He's always been stupid and I always hated him. 26:26 And be wrong. 26:49 No, Luke is the one with such simplistic motives. Ahsoka wants to protect others, and fight for fun.
26:50 Some people consider Mace Windu inconsistent or hypocritical because he frequently bends the rules despite criticizing Anakin for doing so. Geetsly is of the opinion Windu is at odds with Anakin not for bending the rules but for bending them for different reasons than Mace himself. People act differently depending on the situation. Ahsoka, Anakin, and Obi-Wan all fight to achieve peace, and their personal goals remain the same for most of the show. In Ahsoka's case, she goes from determined to prove herself to the Jedi to doing whatever is right regardless of praise. 28:44 Except for Anakin gradually getting more willing to use violence against people at odds with him. Culminating in him maiming Trench before dismissing Jedi Values as a weakness. 31:54 A saying I have no patience for. Good intentions are what make the world better, not worse. If we never acted on them, we'd only have bad things in the world.
"many shows have a Best episodes list. It is frequently no more than a quarter of the total runtime."
You're missing the point. The point isn't that some episodes are better than others, the point is that the tone of the show is very childish and cherry picking a handful of examples doesn't change that. It's the same as calling Star Trek TNG a comedy because I can point to numerous funny moments. No. TNG is not a comedy though it occasionally has comedic elements. No. TCW is not a mature show though it occasionally has mature elements.
"screams of terror as someone is killed gruesomely is enough for most people."
Not a lot of screams of terror in TCW. Not a lot of terror in general.
"it's an example of being so obsessed with winning that he forgets why he's trying to win."
And yet this isn't explored, as I said. Nor are the negative consequences of Padme's actions. And her opposition is dumbed down to evil people wanting more power, eliminating every possible good and moral argument which could have been made to oppose her. It's a complex and mature issue, but TCW flattens it into black and white.
"which is why the Empire is an acceptable alternative"
Again, you're missing my point. My point is that there is no complexity. The Separatists don't have any heroes on their side, despite the title of the episode. The Separatists are evil. Black and white. Simplistic.
"Their evil inclinations were always there, and they acted on it, only obeying a greater villain out of fear, just like the Trade Federation."
Again, again, missing my point. I'm not saying characters like this can't exist. I'm saying a layered complexity from the Prequels was removed by making the Trade Federation plain evil.
"Dooku didn't appear enough to be clear on many things,"
And? What I said still stands. He was willing to give up Sidious' identity and plot (in part) for the sake of recruiting Obi-Wan. That puts him at odds with Sidious or, at the very least, playing mind games by introducing doubt into the Jedi Order and a distrust of the Republic. Again, this is flattened in TCW into simple bad guy vs good guy.
"Some people consider Mace Windu inconsistent or hypocritical because he frequently bends the rules despite criticizing Anakin for doing so."
Some people consider many things. The problem is, these considerations aren't coming from TCW but are being imposed on them from outside. Mace Windu doesn't frequently bend any rules in TCW. He is rarely in the show and he doesn't do anything against the Jedi Order's rules when he does appear.
"People act differently depending on the situation."
Not in TCW they don't.
"In Ahsoka's case, she goes from determined to prove herself to the Jedi to doing whatever is right regardless of praise."
Ahsoka stops trying to prove herself to the Jedi because she succeeds. She is proven innocent and is praised by them all, thus she succeeds in her goal. Her no longer seeking that goal isn't a change of character, but no longer needing to strive for something she has.As for doing whatever is "right" regardless of praise, Ahsoka has always done whatever she believes is "right" regardless of the thoughts or orders of others since her first appearance in the movie and on through every season of TCW. She then expects praise and acknowledgement, even after leaving the Order as she talks down to Obi-Wan as morally inferior to her for not agreeing with her agenda.
"Except for Anakin gradually getting more willing to use violence against people at odds with him."
Even is this is true, which there is no such progression, but assuming there is, it is never explained or given a motivation. The only difference is that at some points they play lighthearted, uplifting, and heroic music when Anakin uses violence and other times they play Darth Vader's theme when he uses violence.Music isn't character growth.
"A saying I have no patience for. Good intentions are what make the world better, not worse. If we never acted on them, we'd only have bad things in the world."
You misunderstand the saying. The saying means that good intentions aren't enough to make the world a better place. It isn't saying good intentions are bad. People can do very bad things while intending to do good things. Think about the German doctors and scientists of World War II. Many of them experimented to advance the world of medicine to new heights, a good goal, but good intentions aren't enough, are they?
@@carolusmagnus1871 Those German scientists were more interested in proving their Master Race theory than anything else. But if you are worried about how things might go wrong with your good intentions, never try at all.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 Some of them. But you are being deliberately ignorant here. It is very clear that good intentions can go wrong as INTENDING to do good isn't necessarily actually DOING good. If you can't see this distinction, then I'm not sure how I can better explain it. Intending to do good is a good thing, but it's not good enough. And if you are advocating against caution, then that says a lot. Being worried about how things may go wrong is a very, very good thing. If you say otherwise, I don't see how we can have an honest conversation.
@@carolusmagnus1871 Some people are so cautious, they don't commit to anything, which means they always fail. William Elphinstone was determined to avoid a fight with the Pashtun tribes while retreating from Kabul in 1842, rather than risk the eighteen and a half thousand assorted soldiers and civilians he was responsible for by fighting through. His solution was to disarm most of his army and hope his deal with the Afghan Emir would be enough to ensure safe passage.
Only one soldier and two thousand civilians made it back. That's what happens when caution rules your life.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 And what happens when caution is thrown to the wind? How many examples can you find of that going as a complete disaster?
You are continuing to argue against arguments I didn't make. I said intentions aren't everything. I never said be overcautious. I am not going to keep correcting you. This isn't a complex statement and it's not even all that relevant. You are complaining about an age old saying that I didn't invent and that you obviously don't understand. Intentions don't save anyone. Intentions can go bad. Nothing you've said counters this.
Bollocks to you for saying the prequels were are unwatchable
I enjoy the Prequels. I said my friends claimed the Clone Wars make the unwatchable prequels watchable. I think my friends are wrong.
I can’t believe people are still trying to argue this dogs*** cartoon is somehow NOT a kids show. In 2024 no less.
Wasn’t Anakin beating up Clovis a good show of Anakin falling to the Dark Side?
Not really. It's a specific instance fueled by jealousy. "Falling" is a process, thus needs many instances which go from sleight to significant. Anakin's rivalry with clovis is a single rivalry which only applies to a single person.
@@carolusmagnus1871 It still counts as Anakin using his emotions to fuel his actions and thus use the Force negatively. I would suggest maybe watching the video "The Foundations of Star Wars" if you want to know more of the nuances with using the Force
@@Kakaragi Thank you, but I am already knowledgeable about the nuances with using the Force. And I never said the instance didn't count as Anakin using his emotions to fuel his actions. I said that's not a progression. Anakin uses his emotions to fuel his actions long before Clovis. He uses it in the 2D animated Clone Wars and Attack of the Clones, for example. What we need is a progression from that to Revenge of the Sith. That isn't present. Him getting angry isn't a progression. Him acting emotional isn't a progression.
@@carolusmagnus1871 Does Anakin's duel with Dooku in the episode "Crisis on Naboo" count either? You could tell in Palptine's eyes that he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku
Although, might I ask if you have read any of the Republic comic series?
It is, except the parts of war crimes and cold blooded murder🤪
And the part where obi wan tells anakin they were both drunk. 😂
I mean, they don't really deal with these topics though.
I’ve always said CW was not a kids show. Way too many mature layers for a 10 year old
You mean CW or TCW?
Because CW is very mature while being absolutly over the top.
@@BansheeNT-D TCW is very mature and more subtle, CW is the opposite.
Me when reading the thumbnail: Yes and no. It's a show that may be aimed primarily at kids and/or family audiences but it can still be enjoyed by adults as well. It's for anyone of any age demographic.
This one of the biggest problems of TCW, the lack of consequences for the actions of the characters. I mean look at Caillou...
Mobile Suit Gundam from 1979 made beside of Amuro being a Gary Stu everything right while portraying a war.
Thank you, my friend was trying to get me to watch it for years, and after i finally did iw as so god damn disappointed 😭😭 like im sorry this is for Stupid people with surface level stuff appreciation
As they say, "The exception confirms the rule"
The fact that there are literally a couple of serious moments in 7 seasons says a lot.
And all this slavery, war, cross, skeletons, skull, coffin, on the contrary, only make the series more childish. Shock content for the sake of shock content, the consequences of which everyone will forget in the next scene, like some kind of mlp-bloody-mince-pony content that children make and children watch. Well, that is, I don’t think it’s good for children to watch such guro, but ironically, they mostly watch this to feel like adults. Well, it’s the same crap with TCW.
The exception is the childish moments. And LOTR is FAR WORSE than TCW. Too many good guys survive, far more joking, not enough stakes.
Dude, it's a cartoon. No matter who the majority viewer is, Disney says kids watch it, so it can't be serious. Just stop. Real fans know what it is. War in animated form.
Nice "No true Scotsman" fallacy
It might not be a kids show, but it felt like it was written by children. I'd rather watch Rebels again than Clone Wars.
Rebels is more of a kids show then clone wars. Neither Kanan nor Ezra really ever kill anybody with their lightsabers. Only droids or deflected bullets. There’s one beheading and that was done by maul. There’s alcohol references in clone wars and many stabbings, beheadings, and torture. Rebels has almost none. Now I enjoyed rebels don’t get me wrong but rebels was even more of a kids show then clone wars by far. My guess it’s due to the fact George did clone wars and Disney did rebels.
@shannak657 You didn't watch the video. Mature topics does not equal "not a kids show" A kids show has simplistic, shallow characters, and a confusing plot. Rebels, for all its horrible humor or lack of killing, is NOT a kids show. It has more nuance, a continued working plot and story, characters get consequences for their actions. TCW is.
Bro ST rebels is more child show than TCW
@@bloodhazat264 You joking? Rebels actually has consequences and deals with this. That's more than I can say for TCW. Remember Kanan's death? Were this TCW, everyone would just miraculously forget it, because that's apparently how death works in TCW. In Rebels however, this death impacted everyone from when it happened all the way to the very end of the show.
@@ECSOrder66 you're right, I'm sorry. I just pis off when he say TCW is written by children. (my opinion) I like TCW more, the show is amazing and make me love the characters more and more.
It started out as a literal show for kids. The people who did johnny bravo did it. After star wars fans expressed interest, it changed drastically.
And the prequels are great. In some ways better than the OT.
Except I don't believe the writing matched the tonal shift. As mentioned in the video, I do believe TCW tried to be mature, I just don't think it succeeded. It continued to be a "Kids' Show" (which, of course, I'm distinguishing from a show for kids).
@@carolusmagnus1871 right, but it wasn't supposed to be mature. It was a cartoon. When they figured it will in fact be canon alongside what already existed, they put in more mature concepts while keeping it mild for kids to watch. They had to do things this way to get by the Disney goons in order to gain a following from all demographics in order to get more projects to turn things around. It's a lot more complicated than what you're saying. We should all be grateful for what has been done instead of criticizing the merits of an animated TV show.
@@sonderstudios6675 I think we can both agree that Disney is to blame for a lot of Star Wars going bad, but we can't blame TCW on them as the vast majority of TCW was made prior to Disney owning Star Wars. And as Season 7 of TCW, which actually was produced by Disney had just as much in the way of attempts at maturity as the earlier seasons, I can safely say "the Disney goons" had nothing to do with blocking the maturity of this show.
If you want to shift the argument to blame "the Cartoon Network goons," I still am not buying it as Cartoon Network has had multiple shows for kids that weren't "kids' shows".
And to say TCW wasn't supposed to be mature is flying in the face of what the vast majority of fans say. Even if you mean the first season or two, the other seasons certainly were trying. Thus, I will not be grateful for a failed attempt at maturity. I am glad they tried (as I said in the video), but since they failed, the merits of this TV show should certainly be criticized.
And, on that topic, why shouldn't an animated TV show's merits be criticized, in your opinion? Is it because it's animated? Is it because it's a TV show? What absolves this show from criticism?
My point is as it has always been, the writing of TCW is poor. TV shows can have good writing. Animations can have good writing. Shows for kids can have good writing. TWC does not have good writing.
And it really doesn't matter if the bad writing is due to Dave Filoni or "the goons" of either Disney or Cartoon Network as it is the writing of the show as presented (however it got there) that most fans praise. I never said I was attacking Filoni. I've always said it was the writing that's to blame. Now I'd say that Filoni's newer shows, which aren't animated and are geared towards older audiences still have poor writing, thus it probably is his fault and not any corporate goons, but I don't really care who is to blame. I just care that bad writing is being called good by the vast majority of fans.
@@carolusmagnus1871 that's exactly my point. It started as strictly a kids show to gain a new audience. Disney came in and shit all over all of us. So, they used tcw to gain favor in the audience since Disney was hell bent on destroying the franchise. Filoni and team used tcw as a tool to give the finger to Disney and get back to the fans.
And a content creator, you have a platform to do good. Why throw shade on this? The fans got that rey movie shut down, that's what should be happening. Fighting the real fight. Use the platform responsibly. 👊🏼
@@sonderstudios6675 You don't seem to understand the timeline. Disney didn't own Star Wars when TCW was being created. They were only involved in Season 7. As I just said, the tonal shift you are talking about didn't happen when Disney owned Star Wars. Season 7 tonally matches season 6. Disney cannot be blamed for anything but season 7 of TCW.
It has super goofy clones and battle droids. I couldnt make it past the middle of season 2. Terrible. CLONE WARS however was badass. Clones werent cracking jokes, neither were the droids.
Dude, it's a cartoon. No matter who the majority viewer is, Disney says kids watch it, so it can't be serious. Just stop. Real fans know what it is. War in animated form.
Nah, CWMMP is war in animated form. Same with ATLA. TCW is war for kids. There's a difference.