Just rewatched the Two Towers. He said it would take an army of thousands, to which Saruman replies ten thousand even. He then steps onto the balcony to see the army Saruman has created and a single tear immmediatly rolls down his cheek. Never noticed it before and I think it's a nice touch.
With an epithet like "Wormtongue" did he really have a chance? Gotta be tough people running you down like that all the time. After a while, you're just going to say "screw this, they keep calling me this, might as well go evil."
Forth Eorlingas! I think there was definitely a part of Grima that was capable of redemption, but I feel he was unwilling or unable to bring himself to try. I’m not sure if the cause was due to his own belief that he wasn’t worthy of redemption or lack of confidence in his own ability to maintain good qualities because he was cowardly in some ways and selfish. Or if he had no faith in others to really accept him after his deeds. Perhaps some of both led him to his breaking point, where he was sick to death of being kicked around, but felt like a lost cause, so he just lashed out, took out the bigger evil that had kept him under thumb, then only half heartedly made an escape attempt. He’s definitely got layers. I do wish we had some more context about his life in order to better understand him. Loved the performance in the films, as well. Even with the limitations of his character not appearing for much screen time, he was portrayed in a way that hinted at his complexity in just a few key moments.
I think he WANTED redemption, but I do not think he was CAPABLE of it. What's more I think he knew it. That's why he chose to follow Saruman out of the Shire.
I think Grima's abilities are some of the most enigmatic in LOTR. He clearly has some degree of "magic" in his voice, or there would be no need for Saruman to plant him there with Theoden to poison his mind. If Grima was just a regular advisor saying evil things, I don't think Saruman would have been strong enough to dominate his mind so potently.
Yes, there were opportunities for redemption. That is the tragedy. He has similarities to Gollum and Smaug chasing after treasures and linking with anyone who can help him to increase his power. Did he love Eowyn, or was she a stepping stone to something else? A marriage to a member of the royal family would be significant for him. The entire time he was advising the king, he was also watching Saruman's techniques and abilities. Perhaps to learn from them? He would be the wizard king of Rohan, and from there, Middle Earth.
My interpretation is that Wormtongue was kinda like Littlefinger from ASOIAF. That he was a minor nobleman who’s ambition and lust outweighed any morality he may have had.
I don't think any character is beyond redemption in tolkein's world. Grima was complex and had good and evil within him. But I think even Morgoth could have been redeemed so yeah, anyone can be
You forgot about Gandalf and Theoden's conversation "when Grima became a [traitor] is not known but it can be guessed. ... He gave you honest service once. ..."
I got the impression that Grimer was shunned by everyone because of his physical appearance. This made it easy for Saruman to lure him away from Theoden. I think that, if he'd been more kindly treated, he might have stayed true to Rohan.
Women are powerful motivators, so I've been told. Grima was so in love with Eowyn that he would have done anything to have her. Even turn to Saruman. He wasn't inherently evil, he was just hopelessly obsessed. Anyone who has ever been hopelessly obsessed in their lives will understand this. I know I have been, but I ended up marrying my crush, as opposed to being shot down by an Elf (or Hobbits). Sorry this comment comes so late! I recently revisited the LOTR films, and they rekindled my interest in Grima Wormtongue. He may haunt my steps as often as he likes!
Wormtongue had a chance at different points starting with King Théoden giving Grima a choice to follow his king or take a horse and go wherever he wished. Sadly cowardice was his real ruler and even when he killed Saruman from the back he showed it and it was his downfall. He could not face the consequences of his deeds being a cowardly fellow.
he wasn't evil when he told to saruman but lord there is no force like that and when saruman reveald his forced and said rohan will fall he realised what he did and started crying
I love how Tolkien always brings it full circle, showing that even the most evil, cruel, or benign characters all had their part to play in the story. As pointed out, without Grima ultimately throwing the palentar down to them the quest may have failed. Without Gollum the quest would have failed. Many other things had to come together in just the right order for final victory.
I don't believe anyone is beyond hope. He was so beaten down that he couldn't see a path out and Saruman, being a master manipulator, made sure he stayed that way. It makes we wonder about Grima's early life. If he was raised the way some kids are raised in our world, he would have been predisposed to fall to Saruman. I agree that we are all both of the light and the dark and at some point we are all face with the decision of which path to walk.
I find it interesting that after Saruman's fall, he needed Grima to validate and maintain his sense of superiority. Saruman knew he was essentially at the mercy of King Elessar and mercy could be granted, but Saruman's ego just couldn't accept that. To paraphrase Paradise Lost, better to rule in hell than to be a slave to heaven. And thus Saruman opted to simply become a lowly crime boss, a drastic fall from being Saruman the White/Many Colors. He needed Grima to validate his own ego and thus constantly abused the wretch, never once thinking his abuse would make Grima snap., and why would he? He was Saruman! I don't doubt that Saruman purposefully starved Grima just so that he could pull such a repugnant move as ordering Grima to eat Lotho.
Wasn't it a foregone conclusion that Grima would fall under the spell of Sarumam? Even the wise had difficulty withstanding Saruman's formidable voice. I didn't have much sympathy for him before but living in these times has shown me that even educated people are easily misled.
Grima's last moments make me think of an abuse victim in some way. Beaten down by Sauraman to the point where he thought he had no self esteem or identity but.... Sauraman kicked him one too many times and Grima decided it was over. So he killed Sauraman as he thought it was his only option....
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Personally, I believe that Grima was seduced to the "Dark Side" by Saruman. We know that Saruman had turned "bad" before (probably LONG before) Grima was even born. We also know that Grima was little more than a powerless Civil Servant, in a culture that over valued a "Warrior" mentality, where the "Military" was more esteemed than "Civilians" (and the description of Grima is that he is not of a "Military" disposition. We also know that Grima was not for a traditional "Aristocratic" family in a highly Class structured society. Yet, clearly, Grima was ambitious (one doesn't lust after the highest ranking Royal "Princess" without some serious level of ambition). And there's the possibility of his ancestry. This might be both a "push" and a "pull" factor in Grima's motivations. In a society of tall Blondes, do you really think an average sized "Darkie" isn't going to experience both verbal and physical "discrimination" (aka "Bullying") probably from an early age. And if his non-Rohirrim ancestor had told him that they (meaning "He") were the original Lords of the land now known as "Rohan", do you really think, experiencing the discrimination he did, Grima wouldn't attempt to revenge himself, both for the sins committed against himself and for the sins committed against "his" people? Yet, by the end of "The Scouring of the Shire" Saruman who had tens of thousands of followers and who had plans within plans and fall-back after fall-back, was, suddenly and unexpectedly, alone, with No Follower left and No Fall-back, except Grima. So Saruman, desperate for at least some "adoration" needed Grima, and when Frodo offered Grima a release from his servitude to Saruman, Saruman feared that Grima would accept and he (Saruman) would be left alone and friendless, with the West clearly closed to him. At that point in the story, the person that knows Grima best is Saruman, and if he fears Grima might accept Frodo's offer, then, clearly, Saruman felt that Grima had some possibility for "Redemption" (I rather suspect that the instigator of the murder of Lotho was Saruman). So, without stretching the story far beyond Tolkien's intent, we can easily believe that Grima Wormtongue was redeemable and that Saruman didn't want that...
The Witch King's interrogation of Wormtongue to learn the whereabouts of the Shire is actually depicted in at least one adaptation of the story: the 1981 BBC radio version. It's quite well done. That adaptation also includes "Easter Eggs" like an expanded version of the Gaffer's conversation with Khamul that Frodo overhears part of in the book, the character of Glorfindel in his proper role (rather than being replaced by Arwen or Legolas, as in the film adaptations of that part of the story), and the Scouring of the Shire.
Forth Eorlingas! You're the first of the community to actually mentioned the fact that the Calenardhon WAS a land belonging to Gondor and given to the people of Eorl in reconnaissance for their help in defending the kingdom "Until the Great King confirms my decision" ! Thank you! Edit: his surname was given to him by the king's men and guards. I personally do not think that he would have been truly helpless, and could've been redeemed! However, Sarumane's grip on him was strong but stretched thinner and thinner until Grima's mind snapped and led him to his fate in the Shire!
Having only seen the movie version of his demise I was puzzled by the offer to allow grima to return home if he turns on sarumon. It seemed like a situation where the best he could hope for is exile. Even with a very forgiving king I couldn't imagine him setting foot back in Rohan without every man, woman and child chucking a rock at him. I don't know what redemption would even look like for this character considering he hasn't shown any positive traits beyond "wow, orcs slaughtering all my countrymen would be super sad"
sharkey pressed his broken button at the end, but i think he had been mocked and punished for so much that was sharkeys doing for decades, that he was scared of anything else ptsd they call it, yes redemption is always possible for anyone
Was he truly evil? As far as the film goes, probably not, given Dourif's sympathetic and complex portrayal. An odd moment in the film is when Worm tells Eowyn the truth about her situation in a rather gentle and poetic manner; and, in a mismatch of tone, she replies that his words are "poison". In the books, he seems pretty bad on balance, but not Sauron-evil or even Gollum-evil. I wouldn't take Saruman's accusation of cannibalism terribly seriously; that's just Saruman poisoning the well out of sheer meanness. In the end, Wormtongue wasn't very bright - a common feature among problematic folks.
His lines in the movie to Eowyn about her situation are actually in the books as well, but were spoken there by Aragorn in a conversation with other characters, in Minas Tirith when Eowyn is in the Houses of Healing after defeating the Witch King.
@@DamonNomad82 Interesting, thank you. So that explains why that scene does not work in the movie. A hero says those words in the book! "Poison" - the words seemed sympathetic and kindly meant!
There might have been a chance for Wormtongue's redemption at some point, because all of those who pledged themselves directly to Sauron, or indirectly, via Saruman, did so as a reaction to despair; the belief that there was no hope of victory against Mordor. Denethor would eventually have followed that same path, broken by his use of the Palantir of Minas Tirith, just as Saruman had been broken by his use of the Palantir of Isengard. There might have been hope for them all, if only the situation had played out differently. But once they were entrapped by Sauron, the worst elements of their personalities came into play, and they became the most twisted versions of themselves. As another famous science fantasy franchise once stated, "Fear is the mindkiller..."
I think Grima essentially uses Saruman as a tool for his lust for power and power, and his relationship with Éowyn as a means of legitimizing his post-king power rather than love.
It's hard to attribute any good to a traitor however Tolkien showed him being offered one last chance at the end, redemption arcs were a very key element of Tolkien's works
I believe there was a small chance of redemption for Wormtongue immediately after killing Saruman, but a very precarious one, if someone had tried hard to reach out for him. At least he wasn't "Ringbound". Although, the Palantir may have hooked him.
Its funny that all the best adapted characters in the LotR trilogy are all those whose names start with a "G"-Grima, Gollum, Gandalf, Galadriel & Gimli. All the other character adaptations are off the mark IMHO, to a greater or lesser degree.
Frodo offered Grima the redemption he wasn't able to offer to Gollum. But again, their own actions led to their demise... An important lesson for Frodo to not be the one who passes judgement, but offer redemption, and it is up to the receiver to accept the opportunity.
I think it would be an interesting "What if?" scenario if we explored what would have happened if the Hobbits had not shot him with arrows. Would he have been given peace to stay in the shire a while..or would he have been sent off to be some poor vagrant wandering in the wild?
3:45 What's the source for this description? For once, I thought him being black-haired was a movie-only thing. If anything, based on the book I would've guessed him gray-haired, as he seemed pretty old. And though there's a LOT of Tolkien I haven't yet read, even Tolkien Gateway doesn't say anything on the matter, and in general it seems a pretty thorough source for details like this.
They didn't devour them. Tolkien wrote that no one knows what they did with the bodies but there were large mounds in the earth that never grew flowers again or something like that
There is also Gunnlaugr Omstunga who served the courts of Norway, Ireland, Orkney, Sweden and England. Described as impetuous, audacious, brave,tough, and a skilled author of mostly derogatory poems.
Wormtongue wasn't evil. He was used and manipulated by someone so much smarter than him it wasn't even fair. Even Theodon forgave him because he knew this,
Ultimately, Grima's fate was sealed by his own weakness of character. He's offered salvation more than once, and it's clear that he wants to take it. So, why doesn't he? In the end, I believe he knows himself all too well. He knows what he's done, and it's quite possible that it's even more--and even worse--than Saruman himself might know. Up until the end, he is ever the opportunist. He knows that if he does take the chance to redeem himself he will almost certainly blow it. He is entirely self-destructive and his personality is such that he can never pass the chance, however slight, for real power. So, long before Saruman's taunts cause him to snap, Grima surely as he killed Lotho, is planning to do the same to Saruman.
was wormtognue his actual name? it seemed too on the nose...but if he had the king's ear it seems like no one in court would dare to use it... but it seems to have been widely known (if kept a secret from him...did wormtongue know that's his other name?)
I think grima was beyond redemption by the end of his life. grima had more then one chance to turn ,but always opted not to. He wanted the easy way out. Also look at what he did he knew about what Saruman was doing at isangard with beading orc. He know Saruman was involved with dark lord and witch king. He know about orc raids on villages. He tried to corned Enway her brother was a protector he had exiled he what he was doing theodion was hurting Enway but kept doing all regardless of the fact he was a self center narcissist. He just was not as charismatic and charming as Saruman was. Saruman just forgot how dangerous a narcissist is when cornered
He was not a great evil like souron or morgoth he was not a primal or unforgivable villain for his evil was simple and human he was a coward and a traitor but a very human one
The presentation of Littlefinger in GOT, as a polished, well-dressed smooth talker, was so much better than PJ's depiction of Grima as an obviously evil malcontent.
Just rewatched the Two Towers. He said it would take an army of thousands, to which Saruman replies ten thousand even. He then steps onto the balcony to see the army Saruman has created and a single tear immmediatly rolls down his cheek. Never noticed it before and I think it's a nice touch.
Such a complex character, Tolkien was on a different level!
Interesting stuff! Yes, if Grima could be separated from Sharky sooner, I do believe he had a shot at redemption.
With an epithet like "Wormtongue" did he really have a chance? Gotta be tough people running you down like that all the time. After a while, you're just going to say "screw this, they keep calling me this, might as well go evil."
He did earn the name, after all. Gotta live up to it now. 🤭
Remember it is synonymous with "dragon tongue", as in Glaurung and Smaug.
@@earthlightsmusic2743 I remember that scene in The Desolation of Smaug the dwarves taunted Smaug by calling him worm. I clearly see the connection. 👍
Exact
Forth Eorlingas! I think there was definitely a part of Grima that was capable of redemption, but I feel he was unwilling or unable to bring himself to try. I’m not sure if the cause was due to his own belief that he wasn’t worthy of redemption or lack of confidence in his own ability to maintain good qualities because he was cowardly in some ways and selfish. Or if he had no faith in others to really accept him after his deeds. Perhaps some of both led him to his breaking point, where he was sick to death of being kicked around, but felt like a lost cause, so he just lashed out, took out the bigger evil that had kept him under thumb, then only half heartedly made an escape attempt. He’s definitely got layers. I do wish we had some more context about his life in order to better understand him. Loved the performance in the films, as well. Even with the limitations of his character not appearing for much screen time, he was portrayed in a way that hinted at his complexity in just a few key moments.
I think he WANTED redemption, but I do not think he was CAPABLE of it. What's more I think he knew it. That's why he chose to follow Saruman out of the Shire.
I think Grima's abilities are some of the most enigmatic in LOTR. He clearly has some degree of "magic" in his voice, or there would be no need for Saruman to plant him there with Theoden to poison his mind. If Grima was just a regular advisor saying evil things, I don't think Saruman would have been strong enough to dominate his mind so potently.
I feel that, since he was Suramans minion, Suraman might have bestowed on him a little bit of his own persuasive voice.
I believe that we all have a chance of redemption, no matter how low we've fallen, even Grima
💚
how wholesome
@@sirjaroid4725 🤣
Unless you are Saruaman
Yes, there were opportunities for redemption. That is the tragedy. He has similarities to Gollum and Smaug chasing after treasures and linking with anyone who can help him to increase his power. Did he love Eowyn, or was she a stepping stone to something else? A marriage to a member of the royal family would be significant for him. The entire time he was advising the king, he was also watching Saruman's techniques and abilities. Perhaps to learn from them? He would be the wizard king of Rohan, and from there, Middle Earth.
My interpretation is that Wormtongue was kinda like Littlefinger from ASOIAF. That he was a minor nobleman who’s ambition and lust outweighed any morality he may have had.
That is such an interesting take.
“Late is the Hour , in which this Conjurer Chooses to appear” 🔥🔥
nice video about Grima
The actor did a phenomenal job also that blooper when he talks about his .45 gun lmao
I don't think any character is beyond redemption in tolkein's world. Grima was complex and had good and evil within him. But I think even Morgoth could have been redeemed so yeah, anyone can be
You forgot about Gandalf and Theoden's conversation "when Grima became a [traitor] is not known but it can be guessed. ... He gave you honest service once. ..."
I got the impression that Grimer was shunned by everyone because of his physical appearance. This made it easy for Saruman to lure him away from Theoden. I think that, if he'd been more kindly treated, he might have stayed true to Rohan.
Women are powerful motivators, so I've been told. Grima was so in love with Eowyn that he would have done anything to have her. Even turn to Saruman. He wasn't inherently evil, he was just hopelessly obsessed. Anyone who has ever been hopelessly obsessed in their lives will understand this. I know I have been, but I ended up marrying my crush, as opposed to being shot down by an Elf (or Hobbits). Sorry this comment comes so late! I recently revisited the LOTR films, and they rekindled my interest in Grima Wormtongue. He may haunt my steps as often as he likes!
Wormtongue had a chance at different points starting with King Théoden giving Grima a choice to follow his king or take a horse and go wherever he wished. Sadly cowardice was his real ruler and even when he killed Saruman from the back he showed it and it was his downfall. He could not face the consequences of his deeds being a cowardly fellow.
he wasn't evil when he told to saruman but lord there is no force like that and when saruman reveald his forced and said rohan will fall he realised what he did and started crying
I love how Tolkien always brings it full circle, showing that even the most evil, cruel, or benign characters all had their part to play in the story. As pointed out, without Grima ultimately throwing the palentar down to them the quest may have failed. Without Gollum the quest would have failed. Many other things had to come together in just the right order for final victory.
I don't believe anyone is beyond hope. He was so beaten down that he couldn't see a path out and Saruman, being a master manipulator, made sure he stayed that way. It makes we wonder about Grima's early life. If he was raised the way some kids are raised in our world, he would have been predisposed to fall to Saruman. I agree that we are all both of the light and the dark and at some point we are all face with the decision of which path to walk.
I find it interesting that after Saruman's fall, he needed Grima to validate and maintain his sense of superiority. Saruman knew he was essentially at the mercy of King Elessar and mercy could be granted, but Saruman's ego just couldn't accept that. To paraphrase Paradise Lost, better to rule in hell than to be a slave to heaven. And thus Saruman opted to simply become a lowly crime boss, a drastic fall from being Saruman the White/Many Colors. He needed Grima to validate his own ego and thus constantly abused the wretch, never once thinking his abuse would make Grima snap., and why would he? He was Saruman! I don't doubt that Saruman purposefully starved Grima just so that he could pull such a repugnant move as ordering Grima to eat Lotho.
Wasn't it a foregone conclusion that Grima would fall under the spell of Sarumam? Even the wise had difficulty withstanding Saruman's formidable voice. I didn't have much sympathy for him before but living in these times has shown me that even educated people are easily misled.
Absolutely! And in turn, Saruman was unable to withstand the words of Sauron echoing through his head, each time he used the palantir.
Favourite character, he's a poet
Grima's last moments make me think of an abuse victim in some way. Beaten down by Sauraman to the point where he thought he had no self esteem or identity but.... Sauraman kicked him one too many times and Grima decided it was over.
So he killed Sauraman as he thought it was his only option....
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
He did it for love ❤
Personally, I believe that Grima was seduced to the "Dark Side" by Saruman.
We know that Saruman had turned "bad" before (probably LONG before) Grima was even born.
We also know that Grima was little more than a powerless Civil Servant, in a culture that over valued a "Warrior" mentality, where the "Military" was more esteemed than "Civilians" (and the description of Grima is that he is not of a "Military" disposition.
We also know that Grima was not for a traditional "Aristocratic" family in a highly Class structured society.
Yet, clearly, Grima was ambitious (one doesn't lust after the highest ranking Royal "Princess" without some serious level of ambition).
And there's the possibility of his ancestry. This might be both a "push" and a "pull" factor in Grima's motivations.
In a society of tall Blondes, do you really think an average sized "Darkie" isn't going to experience both verbal and physical "discrimination" (aka "Bullying") probably from an early age. And if his non-Rohirrim ancestor had told him that they (meaning "He") were the original Lords of the land now known as "Rohan", do you really think, experiencing the discrimination he did, Grima wouldn't attempt to revenge himself, both for the sins committed against himself and for the sins committed against "his" people?
Yet, by the end of "The Scouring of the Shire" Saruman who had tens of thousands of followers and who had plans within plans and fall-back after fall-back, was, suddenly and unexpectedly, alone, with No Follower left and No Fall-back, except Grima. So Saruman, desperate for at least some "adoration" needed Grima, and when Frodo offered Grima a release from his servitude to Saruman, Saruman feared that Grima would accept and he (Saruman) would be left alone and friendless, with the West clearly closed to him.
At that point in the story, the person that knows Grima best is Saruman, and if he fears Grima might accept Frodo's offer, then, clearly, Saruman felt that Grima had some possibility for "Redemption" (I rather suspect that the instigator of the murder of Lotho was Saruman).
So, without stretching the story far beyond Tolkien's intent, we can easily believe that Grima Wormtongue was redeemable and that Saruman didn't want that...
The Witch King's interrogation of Wormtongue to learn the whereabouts of the Shire is actually depicted in at least one adaptation of the story: the 1981 BBC radio version. It's quite well done. That adaptation also includes "Easter Eggs" like an expanded version of the Gaffer's conversation with Khamul that Frodo overhears part of in the book, the character of Glorfindel in his proper role (rather than being replaced by Arwen or Legolas, as in the film adaptations of that part of the story), and the Scouring of the Shire.
Forth Eorlingas! You're the first of the community to actually mentioned the fact that the Calenardhon WAS a land belonging to Gondor and given to the people of Eorl in reconnaissance for their help in defending the kingdom "Until the Great King confirms my decision" ! Thank you!
Edit: his surname was given to him by the king's men and guards. I personally do not think that he would have been truly helpless, and could've been redeemed! However, Sarumane's grip on him was strong but stretched thinner and thinner until Grima's mind snapped and led him to his fate in the Shire!
*shouts at the top of his lungs* FORTH, EORLINGAS! RIDE! RIDE TO RUIN! AND THE WORLD'S ENDING!
Forth Eorlingas!!!! I can’t wait for that one.
I feel like the hobbits killing Grima is such an abrupt and unsatisfying end for that character. I suppose that was Tolkien's point, though.
Having only seen the movie version of his demise I was puzzled by the offer to allow grima to return home if he turns on sarumon. It seemed like a situation where the best he could hope for is exile. Even with a very forgiving king I couldn't imagine him setting foot back in Rohan without every man, woman and child chucking a rock at him. I don't know what redemption would even look like for this character considering he hasn't shown any positive traits beyond "wow, orcs slaughtering all my countrymen would be super sad"
sharkey pressed his broken button at the end, but i think he had been mocked and punished for so much that was sharkeys doing for decades, that he was scared of anything else ptsd they call it, yes redemption is always possible for anyone
“Wormtongue” isn’t a name comparing him to an earthworm; it’s saying he has speech like a deceitful dragon.
Hence Gandalf telling him to keep his "forked tongue" behind his teeth.
I like the portrayal of Grima Wormtongue in Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings. Forth Eaorlingas!
Was he truly evil? As far as the film goes, probably not, given Dourif's sympathetic and complex portrayal. An odd moment in the film is when Worm tells Eowyn the truth about her situation in a rather gentle and poetic manner; and, in a mismatch of tone, she replies that his words are "poison". In the books, he seems pretty bad on balance, but not Sauron-evil or even Gollum-evil. I wouldn't take Saruman's accusation of cannibalism terribly seriously; that's just Saruman poisoning the well out of sheer meanness. In the end, Wormtongue wasn't very bright - a common feature among problematic folks.
His lines in the movie to Eowyn about her situation are actually in the books as well, but were spoken there by Aragorn in a conversation with other characters, in Minas Tirith when Eowyn is in the Houses of Healing after defeating the Witch King.
@@DamonNomad82 Interesting, thank you. So that explains why that scene does not work in the movie. A hero says those words in the book! "Poison" - the words seemed sympathetic and kindly meant!
There might have been a chance for Wormtongue's redemption at some point, because all of those who pledged themselves directly to Sauron, or indirectly, via Saruman, did so as a reaction to despair; the belief that there was no hope of victory against Mordor. Denethor would eventually have followed that same path, broken by his use of the Palantir of Minas Tirith, just as Saruman had been broken by his use of the Palantir of Isengard. There might have been hope for them all, if only the situation had played out differently. But once they were entrapped by Sauron, the worst elements of their personalities came into play, and they became the most twisted versions of themselves. As another famous science fantasy franchise once stated, "Fear is the mindkiller..."
Well done😊 thank you for the hard work and research!!
I think Grima essentially uses Saruman as a tool for his lust for power and power, and his relationship with Éowyn as a means of legitimizing his post-king power rather than love.
It's hard to attribute any good to a traitor however Tolkien showed him being offered one last chance at the end, redemption arcs were a very key element of Tolkien's works
I believe there was a small chance of redemption for Wormtongue immediately after killing Saruman, but a very precarious one, if someone had tried hard to reach out for him. At least he wasn't "Ringbound". Although, the Palantir may have hooked him.
Its funny that all the best adapted characters in the LotR trilogy are all those whose names start with a "G"-Grima, Gollum, Gandalf, Galadriel & Gimli. All the other character adaptations are off the mark IMHO, to a greater or lesser degree.
All things are of Iluvatar, all things by His Song.
Yes.
Deeper more in depth answer.
Yes he is.
Frodo offered Grima the redemption he wasn't able to offer to Gollum. But again, their own actions led to their demise... An important lesson for Frodo to not be the one who passes judgement, but offer redemption, and it is up to the receiver to accept the opportunity.
Forth cunnilingus! I may have misspelled that...
I think it would be an interesting "What if?" scenario if we explored what would have happened if the Hobbits had not shot him with arrows. Would he have been given peace to stay in the shire a while..or would he have been sent off to be some poor vagrant wandering in the wild?
3:45 What's the source for this description? For once, I thought him being black-haired was a movie-only thing. If anything, based on the book I would've guessed him gray-haired, as he seemed pretty old. And though there's a LOT of Tolkien I haven't yet read, even Tolkien Gateway doesn't say anything on the matter, and in general it seems a pretty thorough source for details like this.
They didn't devour them. Tolkien wrote that no one knows what they did with the bodies but there were large mounds in the earth that never grew flowers again or something like that
J. Allard suggests that Grima was based on or inspired by Unferth from Beowulf, a character that sits near King Hrothgar and serves as a taunter.
There is also Gunnlaugr Omstunga who served the courts of Norway, Ireland, Orkney, Sweden and England. Described as impetuous, audacious, brave,tough, and a skilled author of mostly derogatory poems.
Wormtongue wasn't evil. He was used and manipulated by someone so much smarter than him it wasn't even fair. Even Theodon forgave him because he knew this,
He’s a better character than Alfred from the hobbit movies!!
Forth Eorlingas!! Love your content! 😃
grima definitely has an account on 4chan
Ultimately, Grima's fate was sealed by his own weakness of character. He's offered salvation more than once, and it's clear that he wants to take it. So, why doesn't he? In the end, I believe he knows himself all too well. He knows what he's done, and it's quite possible that it's even more--and even worse--than Saruman himself might know. Up until the end, he is ever the opportunist. He knows that if he does take the chance to redeem himself he will almost certainly blow it. He is entirely self-destructive and his personality is such that he can never pass the chance, however slight, for real power. So, long before Saruman's taunts cause him to snap, Grima surely as he killed Lotho, is planning to do the same to Saruman.
Who’s more hated? Little Finger or Grima Wormtongue?
Forth Eorlingas!!
Wasn't there speculation that tolkien had based the Lord of the Rings on ancient historic texts from the archives of Oxford University?
he was too far gone because he could not perceive the concept of redemption...
Forth, Eorlingas!
grima as a reference of grigori rasputin..
He reminds me if gollum 😢
I still don't understand why the hobbits killed him. He wasn't a threat anymore, and fully justified in killing Saruman.
Forth Eorlingas!
was wormtognue his actual name? it seemed too on the nose...but if he had the king's ear it seems like no one in court would dare to use it... but it seems to have been widely known (if kept a secret from him...did wormtongue know that's his other name?)
Gríma, son of Gálmód was his official name. Wormtongue was a nickname given him by the people, who disliked him.
Auf Eorlingas! 🐴
"Azog sent me "
I think grima was beyond redemption by the end of his life. grima had more then one chance to turn ,but always opted not to. He wanted the easy way out. Also look at what he did he knew about what Saruman was doing at isangard with beading orc. He know Saruman was involved with dark lord and witch king. He know about orc raids on villages. He tried to corned Enway her brother was a protector he had exiled he what he was doing theodion was hurting Enway but kept doing all regardless of the fact he was a self center narcissist. He just was not as charismatic and charming as Saruman was. Saruman just forgot how dangerous a narcissist is when cornered
Grima was too weak willed to ever be redeemable
FORTH EORLINGAS!
He was not a great evil like souron or morgoth he was not a primal or unforgivable villain for his evil was simple and human he was a coward and a traitor but a very human one
👍👍
(A lost hope)
Wormy 🪱 was a lost cause
he was evil, it is why he wanted to be serve evil
The presentation of Littlefinger in GOT, as a polished, well-dressed smooth talker, was so much better than PJ's depiction of Grima as an obviously evil malcontent.
forth eorlingas
We are all on a quest to discover our inner Wormtongue! :)
Video 219
Don’t trust someone who has no eyebrows
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The Witless Worm?
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FORTH EORLINGAS!
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Forth Eorlingas!
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Forth Eorlingas!
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Forth Eorlingas!