Why Arrival is the Best Sci-Fi in Years
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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Starring Amy Adams and Jeremy Renner, Arrival (2016) is simultaneously one of the most realistic and original science fiction movies to hit screens since Contact (1997)- and it really put Denis Villeneuve (Dune, Blade Runner: 2049) on the map!
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Nobody discusses that she can likely remember far into the future, long after she’s dealt with the grief of losing her daughter, so that may make decision easier for her.
That's a cool point!
@@TheyreJustMovies You guys should read the novella that the movie is based on: Story of your life by Ted Chiang. The novella is very different while still being very similar, and does answer the question of determinism. It's an AWESOME 30 some pages reading too. :)
@@weird_adama Yeah - this. The film is a good film, but it betrays the book by allowing communication between times ... which is just wrong. Determinism is determinism.
holyshit
As a linguist, this is one of my all time favorite films. Nicely done guys.
I watched this movie for the first time last night because of this podcast. This was one of the best movies I had never heard of, and I really appreciate what you all are doing bringing greater enjoyment of films to my life.
The daughter wasn’t the only one who died, one of the heptapods died too
Man I have to rewatch this movie now.
I love how the none of the alien stuff looks "humanoid", it's so annoying how some people thinks life has to be like it is here on earth.
The reason for that is that it is provably more appealing to the general audience aka more money. In fact it's been proven so many times I shouldn't even have to bring it up.
51:50 Riley is right on here. In a sense she always knew the number, but just forgot. Because she has experienced everything (her whole life) all at once, and yet can only be present in one experience at a time.
Yeahh, The concept of time on this just like how dr. Manhattan perceived time at the same time…
A missed hit pick IMO: The closer Louise gets to understanding the language the closer her "flash forward" events get closer to matching the lighting and color profile of the present timeline. By the end of the movie the scene with the Chinese general is exactly the same in color/lighting as the present timeline when they're cutting back and forth.
The flash forwards are bright because it's showing her in her new 'elevated' thinking process. When she is shown in her present time period just after having a flash of the new thinking she is usually in partial lighting, from a monitor, a desk lamp and the like. She is only partway to her new understanding / way of thinking.
Even the flash forwards of her daughter dying show light, in the room it's curtained off but it's clearly day outside, in the hallway it's bright ceiling lights, even if they don't actually light her much. (Perhaps her emotions are colouring it too?)
As the movie ends the sun is just about to rise above the mountains. This may signify the dawning of a new age for humans, their ability to think in time non linearly.
The magic dust did not give her abilities. It's a metaphor for being IMMERSED in a language. She became fluent because of her immersion in the language (like moving to the country that speaks your target language you want to learn).
Language is also easier to learn face to face. Babies, for example, only retain language when exposed directly in a social setting - talking through something like a screen/phone will not result in language retention. This is my understanding from undergraduate linguistics courses
I feel it was inevitable she got exponentially good at the language because the more she learns in the present, the more access she has to future knowledge, which in return makes her learn faster in the present.
@@mk-1901 I would think that's the case regardless of the future knowledge. The more fluently you know a language, the easier and faster it is to understand he words and grammar. As a fluent English-speaker, learning a new word or bit of grammar is much much easier for me than it is for someone who doesn't know any English or is just starting.
"The spaceships hung in the air like bricks don't" is the best description for the ships in this movie.
Isn't it from "Hitchikers guide..."?
@@nuradio5048 yup :D just really fits well
@@lefunghi6151 it really does!
Riley has the best understanding of the movie details
I really loved this movie when I saw it for the first time in the theater... And even more the second time. I was shocked because my friends thought this was a boring movie.
23:00 I love David's enthusiasm here. Release that as a clip. But I agree, seeing this in the cinema it was truly a journey. Catharsis, revelation, whatever you want to call it. It really keeps you and carries you through in such a human and relatable way. Something a lot of movies like this get wrong by focusing on scope and set pieces that are pretty to look at but don't bring anything to the story.
Everypne else just seems so bored, i love david's enthusiasm here!
@@user-rd3jw7pv7i I don't agree with that. They're listening intently
Really enjoyed this one guys. :) As you say it's a beautiful, layered, philosophical, thought-provoking film. Aside from the poetic circularity of the storyline, I love how the details scattered throughout which work to trigger certain thoughts and emotions in you which reinforce the narrative. For me, a large part of the appeal of anything which makes you think is when it shifts your perspective into new territory, and making us question how we take thinking linearly for granted is definitely that. A couple of things you mentioned were the way gravity shifts when they enter the ship, which I interpret as another way of making us question a directionality we usually take for granted. I also suspect the number 12 is significant because it evokes an unconscious sense of the calendar, and by extension, the way we structure and perceive time.
Having heard you talk about determinism and free will in the context of "Arrival", it will be fascinating to hear your discussion on "prescience" in the context of the upcoming "Dune".
I'm quite confident that "Arrival" was, in Villeneuve's mind, a dress rehearsal for "Dune". All filmmakers (and dramatists generally) want there to be free will simply because it raises the dramatic stakes. Dune makes it easy by implicitly adopting a "many worlds" universe in which Paul in particular can see how different potential futures flow from different choices that he makes...
This film is a masterwork. Thanks for covering it guys
My personal favorite scene in the movie was when the general gets upset with her for wanting to start with all "grade school words" i think the line was. Then she goes on to break down how complex of a question "Why are you here" is when you have to assume/know absolutely nothing about the recipient's culture or language. It's my favorite go to when someone claims something is very simple and can't understand how someone else cant see it as such.
Darmok moment.
This line has fantastic history. Screenwriter Eric Heiserer explained in one interview that it came from a argument with movie studio executives who were against making of the scenes with teaching basic words.
I am Hungarian but since I never heard that phrase I was curious. It is called "szalámitaktika" Salami tactics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing_tactics
Hello, fellow Hungarian! I too was a bit confused about what Riley might refer to, but now hearing Szalámitaktika, it clicked; however, I did not know what exactly it was (post-WW2 history classes were generally quite boring, except for '56 of course)
Truly excellent film. Glad you all enjoyed it
Loved this episode. Enjoyed the discussion and made me want to rewatch as my first time watching was under not ideal conditions.
1:07:42 Bingo. This is why I really enjoy tragedies and have been seeking them out lately. Too much optimism and stuff in most films and books lately and that's just not life. Toxic positivity in some regards. And to be clear, I'm not talking about quote-unquote tragedies, where the whole thing is a drag or just sadistic. I mean, authentic tragedies, sorta like Arrival (though it's a bit different) where the protagonist is given a chance to overcome, and they go through the entire journey, but in the end, some fatal flaw holds them back and it ends on a somber note.
In the Spaceship, hazmatless.
It's the flooding of the senses, mixed with that typical active memory trigger that's the "cause".
Like cut-grass in Spring.
1:12:46 Riley just peeled back that damn onion. Amazing!
FINALLY I’ve been waiting for this since forever. Thanks guys!❤️
Arrival is fucking great. So glad you covered this.
Taking the concept of deterministic circular reality down to the small scale. "Oh this is the day I eat that spoiled food and throw up half of the nigh, great"
He isn't wrong.... Amy Adams always plays the broken woman, the depressed woman, the crazy woman
Have you watched The Muppets Movie?
this was a great first episode for me to start this cast with.
Regarding the discussion around minute 51: I think what Riley is saying in a more technical language is that the universe is deterministic but it's not casual (in the movie). Interestingly, this is the opposite of how our universe works (as far as we know). Due to quantum physics (in its standard interpretations), we do not have determinism. But we do have causality. Physicists are a lot less willing to give up causality than determinism, as it creates lots of problems. If you don't have causality, the future can affect the past. Like in the movie, where in the past she calls the Chinese general which gave her the phone number in the future.
Loving the longer Podcasts, getting deep!
Arrival is in my top 3 movies
Finally, one of the few movies I rewatch!
Drinking game: take a shot every time David says "f**ckin"
But arrival is actually f amazing
they always made a point in the movie that what they say (verbally) is not the same as what they write (with the ink). when she's inside the ship with the white smoke it's verbal only (which is why she can understand them but also does nothing for his understanding being exposed to the smoke earlier) - it's the written language that it is the key to non-temporality which is why she's the only one who gets the "gift" before him (and everyone else)
James is my favorite Chad
Here is how she was able to learn the language all of a sudden. The smoke has nothing to do with it. Knowledge and understanding of the language is what allows you to see time non-linearly. At the time she learns it almost instantaneous (in my opinion) is because the moment she is beginning to understand the language, all those years of studying and completely knowing the language instantaneously become useful to her now. She doesn't have to study it because her future self knows it in its' entirety and her new ability of perceiving time allows her access to that knowledge. Personally I feel like they kinda messed up the movie in allowing her to react as though she is in the future. If it was true determinism she would only be able to watch herself and learn from the future. Overall though great movie. 8/10 would watch again.
Will you guys be covering Wheel of Time?
Great review and I particularly enjoyed the hit picks. I've watched it a few times but I still missed many aspects of the layered storytelling. This movie is a masterpiece! Can't wait for dune.
Louise has premonitions because she understands the LANGUAGE (and to an extent the aliens themselves) and Renner(Whatever his name was) does not to nearly the same extent(he confesses to her that he pretty much thinks what she does is incredible later on in the field on the truck). Yes, it happens immediately as she takes off her suit, but if I remember correctly that is also when she goes up and puts her hand up and the alien does the same and she goes "Now thats a proper introduction." it's the point where the understanding of the language and the aliens BEGINS thus it's where her premonitions begin. So yeah, David is right, i paused in the middle of the conversation to post this. The argument seems to be about can she understand them or not and when she goes up into the smoke at the end is that where she understands them, where it seems to me she begins to understand them at one point and that progresses, but she is not fluent until the end, after she goes up into the smoke, because after that happens she goes back and tells Renner she can read it. So yeah, everyone is kinda right. She begins to understand them (or they begin to understand each other) when she takes off her suit and puts her hand on the glass and she progresses in her understanding and they begin to communicate to a limited degree and then when she goes up in the ship in the smoke all alone, she suddenly is fully fluent, thus when she goes back down she can understand all those symbols they throw up before the explosion, which gives her the ability to communicate a way for humanity to tell the future.
Have you all done a show on Mr Nobody?
I'm listening to the credits of this movie. Just watched it for the first time. Had no idea you were covering this. I get on youtube to see if you guys have covered this movie. It is the first video recommended. 4 hours after the videos release. I am not making this up.
Fun fact: people who's language doesnt have a word for blue, cannot physically see the color blue. Language is the scaffolding of our perception.
Please watch kingsman 1 and 2. To prepare for number three
is this david's alt?
@@TheyreJustMovies ahahahahahha i wish, no a big fan of LMG and really enjoyed the kingsman movies. Especially the first.
33:14 How could it be the other way around? It's not like we can choose what language we learn when we're a toddler...
30:16 Him putting down the recording and asking for a translation I think is actually a bit of dramatic irony. We as the audience are used to seeing that sorta thing in movies and TV shows where the plot isn't about language or struggling to understand something completely foreign to you, and so they do call someone in and they ask for a translation, and instead of saying "They're ET, I have 0 way to understand jack shit," they say "Oh, well it sorta sounds like Latin, let me look." and in the next scene the person is fluent. It's a common trope, and I think this was the movie's way of saying "Yeah, it's not that kinda movie. We aren't going to just dismiss the language, we are going to figure it out." Even though it's still super sped up, like it would probably take a year at least.
I think more praise is due for Max Richter's "On the Nature of Daylight". If not for that incredible, heart-wrenching song, the unforgettable opening and ending scenes wouldn't have the weight they have.
You need to pan one left a bit and one right a bit. Love you ❤️
I think you should change it back to carpool critics
The movie can't be deterministic because the aliens want the humans help in the future. If it was deterministic there wouldn't be any way to help the aliens
Wait this isn’t TechNews!
I thought Arrival was a total joke. Aliens that look like giant walking trees but somehow they can fly a spaceship across the universe...right....one of the dumbest alien movies I've ever seen...
What's worse than a short existence full of pain? Having never existed at all.
Since the aliens were supposed to know the future, it makes no sense that the aliens wouldn't have simply kept the door closed to prevent the humans from entering when the bomb was there or that they wouldn't have simply warned them to leave.
Why waste/sacrifice a life for no good reason?
I did enjoy the movie but my 'negative' feeling probably had more to do with other people's reaction to the movie (with the movie being the catalyst or enabler), than the movie itself.
I feel the pretentiousness actually came from the audience (similar to Inception) -ironically it's just like what the guys were doing at the end.
The movie is good and there are good ideas but being 'mind blown' by it and then just dismissing anyone who wasn't as 'mind blown' as you were; as 'too simple' or 'stupid' -is rather arrogant.
Ideas around non linear time, subjective perception, paradoxes, determinism and free will; are hardly new to scifi or to those with interest/education in philosophy/neurology/physics/etc.
fair enough
I really don't think that the low reviews on IMDB are from people "those with interest/education in philosophy/neurology/physics/etc"
Was confused as to why there are no carpool critics recommended to me for the last months. Apparently rebranded.
Do sicario!
David seriously needs to chill out on the word "like". He's like, she's like, they're like, we're like, like like like like like like!
Think about your words then say them.
I liked this comment, and deserves more likes.
Please do review of Indian Movie
3 Idiots
I love the visuals/production of his movie, it is beautiful and awe-inspiring. However with that said, I'm not a fan of the story. For me the story doesn't have any actual tension and none of the characters have any agency. Half way through the movie, when the science team discovered the Squid's language can grant users foresight into the future, I've already figured out Dr. Banks was seeing her future. It is a novel way to delve into ideas of time travel, but it makes the rest of the movie a lot less meaningful to me.
According to the story, the Aliens foresaw a future catastrophe in 3000 years; and the only way to resolve said event is to cooperate with the humans. Costello has been unhappy with the humans knowing Abbott will soon be killed by one rogue soldier armed with explosives; but he and Abbott still carried out the task of trying to teach the humans their language, as that is what their "prophecy" required.
At around the same time, the Chinese contact team had deduced, perhaps wrongly, what the Squids brought was a very powerful weapon. The Chinese then believed whichever nation holds said weapon in their respective arsenal first, may want to dominate others by launching attacks wherever the other 12 locations the Alien spacecrafts had also landed. Due to the rogue soldier attack and the Chinese provocation; the US then decided the Alien craft has gotten too politically sensitive and important for any civilian personal to work on. Thus the US military revoked Dr. Banks' credential and locked downed the Alien site. This makes Dr. Banks one of the only person on Earth who can stop a potential nuclear exchange between US and China. This sets up the tension for the final act but does it?
Here is my issue with the logic of the time travelling language and why it very much negatively impacted the movie. The predictions are too precise and doesn't leave room for interpretation! Everything happened in the film are already destined to happen! Half way through the movie we already know Dr. Banks was seeing her own future. From this we can easily infer whatever tension the movie is building up to doesn't really matter! Without a doubt, there will be a peaceful future where US and China doesn't destroy each other. If we take another step back: The aliens, knowing everything in advance, came to Earth to teach us their language and have us in term help them in the far future. This means the future for humanity is to cooperate with the aliens; thus humanity will survive no matter what happens in the movie! On the same note, when everything is laid out in advance so concretely, then there is absolutely no agency for any of the characters! Everyone and everything is simply following a predestined path with no room for changes or surprises...
For me this movie is 9/10 in terms of filmmaking artistry, but the story is only a 6/10. I give it a 7/10 overall, I just wish what the story tried to explore was more thought out.
Arrival is amazing but another denis villeneuve film blade runner 2049 is the best sci-fi of the last decade
Yeah I always thought it was kind of devastating that she chose to have a child with the guy and not tell him what she knew would happen. Super not fair to the child or the father.
What happened to carpool critics?
They said name doesn't makesense since they don't watch in their cars
I hate this movie. It’s so pretentious, trying to appear smarter and grander than its script justifies.
I'm a bit of a movie normie so I didn't really like this one.
It’s a pretentious movie that tries to appear smarter and grander than its script justifies.
It wasnt.
i found it to be the shittiest sci-fi movie in decades...
As someone with a better understanding of causality due to my college education (and playing games with time loop elements) I really enjoyed this movie’s take on time and how it was weaved into a really good narrative. I did not like having to explain it to friends and family when they didn’t have any idea how things worked.
Dune is better
At least this felt like a full movie, unlike dune
In no shape or form is the first part of Dune alone a better movie.
the name change is trash imo loved carpool critics why u kill it >:(((
They said name doesn't make sense since they don't watch movies in their car
As a French guy I wanted to tell you there is no way you could even pronounce Denis Villeneuve worse than you do, I love it 😂
Awesome podcast, this movie is my favorite Sci-Fi movie and you brought details that I didn't notice and cool insight. Thanks a lot guys
They could say Denis like Dennis, that would be worse.
Though it wasn't very indicative of the content I like the old name better.
I'm with Riley on this one, it's 100% about her learning the language. Louise entering the ship just coincides with a critical level of understanding that she's reaching. In fact that is WHY they send the pod down for her, they know that she has reached a point that she can perceive time as they do.
You all should review denis' earlier work like ENEMY
36:18 nvm haha
I would LOVE if they did Enemy
I second this. My vote is Incendies though. F***ing good movie.
The Expanse is the best sci-fi my mans. Ok it's not a movie yet but still.
I've been told this and I believe it but I've tried twice and can't make it past the second episode. This show is a sleeping aid..
@@TheyreJustMovies definitely is the coolest most realistic future timeline we have currently. The main character is pretty 2D but the people around him have the best story arcs
@@TheyreJustMovies It is known to take more than a couple of episodes to get hooked. I can't recall when I got hooked but it didn't take much longer...
@@nenniusnankurunaisa590 I watched up to 5th episode and I just couldn't phase over the B-tier acting (apart from Jared Harris). I'm not sure if it's the directing or the actors but when characters interact it's fairly poor., and it's off-putting while you watch it. Reason why I stopped.
@@TheyreJustMovies it took me a few years to get through season 1. Glad I pushed through as I found it found it’s grove later
what you guys said about the mood influencing the perception of a movie (not just movies) is so true. I remember the first time i tried to watch this movie i wasnt in a good mood and felt asleep, never attempted to watch it again until now. So glad i did cause it is great.
Finally! Now plz do Nocturnal Animals!!!
The conversation I had with the mister after watching that movie...heavy stuff
@@DizzyBusy Thrilling movie from start to finish
@@Tensta16361 And directed by a fashion designer, I mean, what? He definitely had an eye for composition, but also being a storyteller on top of that? So awe inspiring
Omg yes!!!!i love that movie
@@DizzyBusy yeah 100% the imagery is so beautiful
arrival sucks for me .....that's not how time works when u could have knowledge of the future there r multiple possibilities ...have the kid or not have the kid is a false dichotomy ....by choosing to have that kid she is killing off all of her potential healthy kids she could have had if she had sex 2 min later or a month later....she is just not attached enough to those potential kids ...and that part is completely ignored
Lol - leave it to a stoner to think that magic smoke literally gave her the altered ability to instantly understand the language.
why the emphasis on her breathing it in then?!
@@TheyreJustMovies she was just experiencing shock from breathing in some weird-ass atmosphere, the significance comes from the fact that she's closer to them than ever, not that the air is magic smoke!
hehe well it could be a thing ...but yeah it could be just trying to understand the language
@@RILEYismyname @They’re Just Movies 100% - it’s just such a common sci-fi trope (the technology to alter atmosphere to be breathable), the camera is showing her dropping her defenses and trusting them to not suffocate her. In fact, it’s almost like she’s accepting the visions of this child and an entire life she’s not yet lived as being real memories. She’s learned this language seemingly all at once because she can remember she will have written the actual book on how to communicate with it. Taught the college courses. She didn’t receive it at once - she remembered it at once because she’s let down the defenses. The smoke (atmosphere) is a metaphor, not magical space weed.
Edit: joking aside, I think it’s important to remember the theory spoken in the movie about how exposure to a language can physically alter you. That wasn’t a mistake. It was her exposure to the language that was accelerating her mental capacity to experience time non-linearly. It snowballed - and began long before her direct exposure to the beings. By the time they showed her all the symbols, she had the ability - she just lacked confidence and clarity about just how powerful she had become.
Yeah, the smoke was just for dramatic effect. She started having flashforwards as she was slowly mastering the language.
Some color: in the original short story, her daughter dies in a rock climbing accident, not an unavoidable disease. Louise understands that she lives in a deterministic world and there is nothing she could have done to change what happens to her daughter. However, the creator of the movie (not sure who) didn’t like this aspect of the story because he believed in free will. So in the movie, the conception of her daughter is a conscious choice.
how do y'all watch the movie? with pen and notepad taking notes as you watch? or how do yall gather all your thoughts about the movie? just curious
it's probably easier when you're paying attention instead of checking the phone, thinking of smth else etc
@@rgb1996 go back to sleep rgb
You watch it more than once, then you can focus on the details and take notes
Instead of thinking of the perceived timeline as a circle, I prefer to think of it as a mass of moments among a spirograph net
David says it right, don't try to read it, just listen and repeat, Villeneuve. How hard can it be? Riley does accents yet he can't learn one word by sound? I know the sound associated to "eu" in French doesn't exist in English but it's like signing, move your mouth and make noises until you hear what you were aiming for... Easy! :)
The Difference: In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which an advantage that is won by one of two sides is lost by the other. ... In contrast, non-zero-sum describes a situation in which the interacting parties' aggregate gains and losses can be less than or more than zero.
pls review, "The Hateful Eight"
I really really really love this movie. It's just so solid. The cinematography, acting, score, runtime everything...
The script sucks though.
Late to the discussion here, but you guys didn't even touch on the score. On the Nature of Daylight absolutely encapsulates the themes and messages of this film perfectly. It's cyclical and repetitive, not unlike the language of the Heptapods, but similarly, there are specific moments of flourish and accent that turn what would otherwise be a monotonous and boring peice, into something wondrous and hauntingly beautiful.
I feel like I'm the only person who didn't enjoy this movie
It’s my favourite movie. The first time I watched it completely naively and I was blown away. It’s a cinematic masterpiece.
11:37 No - the point is that she doesn't get a choice about entering a relationship at all! There is no such thing as choice. Determinism is determinism.
Riley dropping Amor Fati and everyone just moving on smh
Sarah did a great job hosting this (According to the end credits).
I personally loved this movie when I saw it in theatres. I think those who didn't like it, didn't really pay attention to it. Similar to how people who half payed attention to inception, didn't fully understand what was happening.
This movie is the example of the kuleshov effect, we all believe she is sad because of the montage
From what i understand, the sandscrit word for war (or at least one of them) is literally composed of the roots "cow desire". Her point is that language has cultural connotation beyond the literal meaning of the word.
The Berkley guy gave the correct translation, while ignoring the literal translation.
Yes - Block-time. Just like Tenet. Yes - determinism.
I hope someone makes a movie exploring that idea. Exploring what would happen in a universe - that has been established to be Block-time - when someone deviates from what was “always going to happen”. I guess Primer did go into that somewhat, when they “broke symmetry” with the cellphone calls.
With choice, and a non-deterministic universe, the nonlinear perception of time wouldn't work. There would be infinite possibilities, and seeing just one, wouldn't mean anything because any variable at any point could change making that insight essentially a weather forecast. Though I dont think the creators _fully_ understood this, the movie only works in a deterministic universe.
No views gang
join the 100% retention gang plz
I think of the only plotholes in the movie was that if the aliens can see into future and did actually understand human languages, why didn't they just adapt to write in them instead? They can arrive and immediately convey in English that they want humanity's help so they are here to teach them their own language. Why waste all of that time and risk their own lives to wait for humans to interpret Heptapod-B first?
where do I skip to after 36:05 spoiler? haven't seen the enemy. UPD: seen the Enemy just now. The spoiler is pretty strong so no regrets to delay watching this video for it. Skip is to 36:22 exactly or a couple of seconds later.
This movie was at best a 5 out of 10 for me, very forgettable in general. I might watch it again, someday, but it's not the type of movie that you would watch multiple times in a year.
I can't remember what university her character is a professor at, but they filmed those shots at Université de Montréal
The story, the visuals, the soundscape. Simply brilliant.