Is This Doctor Who's Most Political Episode?
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2023
- Doctor Who Series 9's two-parter The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion is acclaimed and beloved by fans. But is this simply because of its iconic climactic speech? Well in today's review, we're going to find out!
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Literally editing a review in your style of Songs of War right now, it's fate lol
I must say, the starting minutes of your video is an important antidote to polarization. The more media portraying this, the better.
I also absolutely love that one bit from the 7th Doctor's anti-nuclear war bit in 'Battlefield' (underappreciated story), where he talks the villain out of launching a nuclear weapon, as she comes from a world where no such thing exists, and she just sees the use of one as a quick victory --
"Death falling from the sky - blind, random! Machines of death and light brighter than the sun! Not a war between armies, or a war between nations - just death, death gone mad! A child looks up in the sky, his eyes turn to cinders - No more tears, only ashes! Is this honor?! Is this war?! Are these the weapons you would use?!" The latter part in particular still gets me
Beautiful speech
"Have you ever wonder if imposters are Among Us" Well done Harbo for playing algorithm correctly
Very clever, but felt like a mental flashbang
I always read the "let Clara Oswald get inside your head" line as him telling bonnie what Clara told him in DOTD, not that she literally changed her mind from the inside
I know it's beating a dead zygon at this point, but Capaldi is breathtaking across these two episodes
"ooooh it was the horse...."
But also yeah he gets so much to do this story and doesn't waste a moment of it. Part Bob Woodward, part Cicero, part worried grandpa and it all merges beautifully. It's absolutely nuts that we got this performance and "Heaven Sent" in the same season.
I always interpreted the "you let Clara into your head" line not as Clara's will enforcing itself over Bonnie, but the voice of her reason, much more metaphorical.
This episode alone caused Capaldi to become my favourite doctor, I'll find myself overlooking some of the worse parts of his role, and focusing on the better ones because of it. I have simply never been so engrossed, so hung on every word as I was by the speech in this episode. He really became the _Doctor_ of War in a way I don't think we expected.
This
Capaldi was always the best of the new doctors to me, it’s just SOME material he was given was hard to get through at times
I think I’ve never not teared up when Kate backs down, just her “I’m sorry” isn’t just a placation but is so, so genuine in guilt it hits hard.
On the topic of Jenna Coleman as Bonnie: just conceptually it's crazy to imagine playing a character who's pretending to be your character that you've known for years. How do you give the audience enough breadcrumbs to not make the reveal either too obvious or too surprising? And yeah she's wonderful as a scenery chewing villain.
Great review as usual
She's easily one of our country's greatest actors, and further proof that, contrary to what some believe, many of our best actors originally came from soap operas (Jenna Coleman having appeared in Emmerdale before Doctor Who).
@@CineScarborough she's always an actress I'm happy to see in a project for sure! And yeah the bias against soaps is a bit silly. Are there bad soap actors? Absolutely. But can you really fault the good ones for just doing it to pay the bills when starting out?
@@CineScarborough she also played melia in xenoblade, many good actors also come from jrpgs
I don't think that it implies Clara changed Bonnie's mind, I think its in reference to Clara helping him make the same choice in the 50th, and him passing it on to Bonnie.
The timing of The Zygon Inversion for me is what gives it more impact. That episode aired pretty much a week before the Paris terrorist attacks. Also Capaldi is just absolutely GOLDEN in that big scene. It's pure art. If Heaven Sent didn't exist that would be his Magnum Opus.
This was the episode that got me into Peter Capaldi and back into Doctor Who after I dropped off like many others after Matt Smiths departure. Found it on randomly and I'm so thankful for it because Capaldi is now my absolute favorite Doctor
Secret Invasion could have learned so much from this. One of my most favorite two parters and my most FAVORITE Doctor's speech
"london........... what a dump" is one of my favorite jokes
It's not a joke, it's an observation
I love this episode for so many reasons. But just when it was briefly there, as you showed in the clips, the humour was absolutely spot on. As he introduces himself to the commanding officer, she says, "Yes, we know who you are." Guess what I had a mental flashback of!
It's insane just how much _better_ these _two_ episodes handles the idea of shapeshifting infiltrators than the _entirety_ of the MCU's Secret Invasion
This is S tier, this story is a masterwork, the speech at the end is perfect and I remember watching it the first time w/tears welling up, totally forgetting it was a TV show and just feeling it, and being proud of the Doctor for his beautiful solution, and then proud of the writers for making it a victory of words and ideas over ignorance and petulance. Absolutely my favorite modern WHO moment.
This is everything marvel's secret invasion wasn't.
Also, here's an example of a truly great episode under moffat's era. I don't get why people always whine about his time as show runner while pointing out the bad episodes but ignoring amazing episodes like this, hell bent and eleventh hour, meanwhile they only seem to remember the great peisodes of RTD era and forget there were also some pretty awful stinkers in that run too.
For me its that moffatt has such amazing potential. Episodes like this are sooo close to being perfection. Imagine if he could sort out his inability to complete a storyline, plotholes and awful writing of women. He would be sooooo incredible. And thats the real shame and why his run is dissapointing - because hes sooo close.
12's speech shoukd genuinely be studied in film studies or media classes in gcses and a levels and such because it is an absolute masterpiece
doctor who did in a two parter what Disney's Marvel couldn't do with an entire show (Secret Invasion)
It becomes all the more embarrassing when you remember that *211.6 million* were invested on “Secret Invasion”, while these two episodes had a budget of around 2 million.
Capaldi's speech in The Zygon Inversion, imo, is the best speech in the entire franchise. This speech is timeless, as who knows what conflicts will appear in the future, whether it be on Earth or wherever the human race ends up. What it preaches makes it the most important Docotr speech of them all, which inturn for me, makes it the best.
(Other opinions are welcome, I've just wanted a reason to say this)
It's funny that we can talk about shapeshifters in Doctor Who and just skirt by the Doctor shifting shape now and then.
During the speech at the end I found an answer to a question I’d been debating in my head for years. Who’s the best doctor. Tom or Troughton? The answer was neither. It’s Capaldi.
Now, just imagine revisiting this two-parter on 16th October 2023…
This was the episode Capaldi became my GOAT- Heaven Sent and majority of Season 10 just further cemented it.
The story will age extremely well with time imo.
The zygon inversion is one of my all-time favorite episodes just for the doctors war speech alone, one of my most treasured moments in tv in general.
Jenna Coleman is brilliant in the show, but in this episode inparticular. I genuinely forget that Bonnie is wearing Clara's face
Maybe I'm wrong but when the doctor said that this has happened 15 times and that it was the longest month of his life. I assumed that he had actually been at this for a month to get this result. Even if the last part isn't true and just meant it figuratively which does make more sense. And they just went through the scale model exercise 15 times, he would still have had to wipe Clara too because if Clara remembered then Bonnie would too.
31:00 I don't think Bonnie changed her mind because Clara MADE her do it. I think the implication is that, without Clara there, she wouldn't listen to a thing the Doctor said (see: the Master in the Series 12 finale).
This is my favorite Peter Capaldi episode. That war speech gives me goosebumps. Its so well written, but Capaldi's absolutely amazing preformance is what truly sells it
I loved this episode for 2 reasons: 1, the war themes and anti-war speech were brilliantly executed by all and it was super touching, and 2, I had a hella crush on Bonnie (don't judge me, I was a teenager going through me 'I just think they're neat' phase for any slightly evil women)
incredibly justified for both
@@leacwm thanks fam
I think a lot of people would admit bonnie was kinda hot tbh
It has admittedly been a few years since I've rewatched it so I could be wrong about how it presents the issue, but I remember having a distaste for the way the story handles assimilating into new cultures. The idea that the "good" Zygons being the ones who want to disappear completely into humanity and erase their own history and culture and the "bad" ones being the ones who want to be seen and proud as Zygons feels... underexplored if nothing else. But otherwise, yeah, some of Capaldi and Coleman's finest work, and it really makes the episode stand out
Good - respect the culture of their new home
Bad - arrogantly flout the rules and culture of their new home
It's not that complex. When in rome, do as the romans
It also feels very on-brand for a british television show. I've never particularly liked this episode because of its takes on this and some other subjects that feels....particularly not great. Its not as overtly bad as "the doctor roots for space amazon" but still.
I was watching Marvel's Secret Invasion the other month and like my first thought in the first episode was "this is very very similar to the Doctor Who Zygon two parter" and I don't know if that is a good or bad thing.
Honestly, trying to connect the story to specific situations IRL actually dampens the story, makes it feel less important that it actually is.
Because to me, it always came across as being against ALL self righteous groups, who think they are fighting the 'good' fight, and that can end up being anyone, even you and me.
That to me is far more powerful and widespread than comparing it to just a single group.
amazingly well put together video once again keep it up harbo
'The Silurians' from the Pertwee era was a very political episode. Doubly so when you factor in the fact it was written by Malcolm Hulke (a member of the UK Communist Party).
This is honestly one of my all time favourite episodes
Comedy, direction, cinematography, acting, writing, atmosphere, design
I LOVE it
A really amazing review. I'm happy that you are taking these real life horrible events apophatically serious
These episodes are great and everyone in them really give a tour de force as actors. When Kate Lethbridge-Stewart closes the box she has the look on her face (props to actress Jemma Redgrave for her performance) that tells me she let the screams of the victims in for a second and decided that she couldn't bare to be the cause of that much suffering. The look on her face afterwards is sadness mixed with disgust at how she could even think of pressing the buttom, I love Capaldi as the doctor and I love this episode.
The title change I see u Harbo >.> I see U
These episodes are the first ones I think of when people say doctor who wasn't political before jodies era of doctor who.
The difference is one doesn't smack you in the head with a frying pan
@@Sillimant_ I mean this episode also essentially smacks you over the head with it too
This episode isn't political. It deals with Zygons as essentially the same as people. No mention of an increased crime rate, or areas with Zygons being less safe to live in. As a result, you can't really equate it to the refugee crisis as this video insists. It's a story about the general fear of people who are different, not the learned (and, arguably, rational) fear of "if these people come here, the streets will be less safe for my wife and children".
"Don't judge a book by its cover" is something most people nowadays agree with. The modern refugee crisis is more a case of "don't judge a library by its books": that the crime rate in areas that accept refugees inarguably increase, even if there are good people among them.
@@epiccarrot88did u make ur own copypasta for hating refugees
Not the deepest point, but the Zygon "angry baby" redesign is really a step down from the original "sad baby" look.
Also, the original Zygons needed to keep their human counterpart in some kind of coma. How do modern Zygons manage to take an identity?
this is explained in a 2009 8th doctor audio as them being able to hold onto one body print if they never turn back
I’m sorry, but those soldiers in Turmezistan are stupid, there’s no 2 ways about it.
I understand why they’re not prepared to risk shooting their own family members, but why do they act like the only alternative is to follow them inside?
All they had to do was order the zygons to all wait outside and leave a few of their number to guard them. I think it’s safe to say that if those had indeed been their relatives, then they would have had no inclination to attack the soldiers, so any attempt to do so would have immediately confirmed that they weren’t who they said they were, and we clearly see after the reveal that Kate survived that Zygons aren’t immune to bullets, so killing them later down the line wouldn’t have been difficult.
Also, The Doctor specifically told them to leave as many zygons alive as possible, so why did they need to kill them at all if they weren’t posing an immediate threat?
That scene outside the church does feel rather chilling, you know they are Zygons and the fact the just immediately kill all the soldiers once inside is pretty messed up. But of course the doctor speech about war and how amazingly Capaldi plays it it’s just hard to not be gut wrenched
The Osgood shushing her doppleganger was always a great moment
I knew Secret Invasion felt familiar, but I couldn't place why until now.
Good review! I really enjoyed this story and this story really felt like a leftover story from High School and when I first watched this story, I felt like I was in High School even though I was 5 months out of High School. I will admit I do like The Doctor's anti-war speech, and I feel like Peter Capaldi deserved an Emmy for that back then. I do like Osgood in this story and The Doctor and Osgood just connect very well in this story.
doctor who definitely the did the “skrull invasion” thing better than marvel did
if it was my mom, i could. my mom has been dead for years now... and while it wouldn't feel good, i'd probably be more mad my mom's image was being used to manipulate me.
Aliens do exist on Earth in the Doctor Who universe. Even when almost every being on Earth, the Doctor is seen as an Urban Legend. His status as an Urban Legend has a lot of truth as well as some myths.
You do wonder where all these Aliens on Earth are though when it is getting invaded by other species.
With the invasion of Ukraine, I remember the Doctor's "speech" at the button scene. Yeah, I think speech means prepared speech, which is why I put it in quotation marks.
In fairness, he had 15 times to refine what to say.
@@backpackerraden6268 Peter or the Doctor?
@@fredrickcampbell8198 The Doctor. Right before he mind wipes the room he says "well, you [Kate] have said that the last fifteen times"
@@backpackerraden6268 Well, I don't remember that part of the episode. Was my memory wiped too?
Brb, going to go watch that speech for the nth time (this two parter is yet another example of why Capaldi is my favorite Doctor)
Think its a great episode - also the two little girls who are Zygon high command are my cousins! I was v jealous as a long term Whovian!
Cooool. this two-parter is my favourite out of the entirety of series 9. Potentially the entirety of Doctor Who.
The Alan partridge reference 🥲
A well thought out deconstruction and commentary.
People need to give Jenna Coleman more villain roles, she's so good at it here
This is one of my fave eps. Great story.
The only thing that ruins this two parter are the utterly ridiculous Sonic Shades. I don't understand why you would give the Doctor a device that two stories ago was so easily broken. If they wanted to give him a different Sonic device to the Sonic Screwdriver, then it really should have been a Sonic Guitar.
The big speech is rightly praised, but part of its impact is as a result of the buildup from the episodes overall
I have such a crush on Bonnie. I just feel like I can fix her, you know?
There is always hope, follow your dream.
@@badwolf66 It's me and Shauna, never giving up hope.
8:45 Zygon-killing ass
Zygon base is giving major mindflayer
Is it just me or is this what Secret Invasion should have been?
The Target book is pretty good
w video my good sir
I disagree that the doctor was showing sny kind of bias when he was trying to determine is Osgood was human or zygon. Due to the nature of the threat, and the fact that there is only one Osgood left, the nature of the revolution posed a threat to her in multiple ways. Which threats she faced were determined by which ine she was. The humsns, on the other hand, were very much showing a deep mistrust toward her.
She is inherently very important when it comes to the peace treaty, and her being revealed as one or the other did put that at risk, depending on eho knew the truth. Whether or not the doctor knowing would have done that is something that could be debated, because he wants to preserve peace either way.
I also think it is important to consider that revolutions generally have some validity. They are often based in some form of suffering or pain or percieved injustice. To feel that you can only feel safe if you hide who/what you are is a suffocating way to live. But causing the suffering of other humans, especially when it is not their fault, or other zygones when they are happy with how things are, is obviously not the answer. It is particularly devastating when, inevitably, no matter how much pain and death is caused, you end up in the same place you started. You have to come to the table and negotiate some form of peace. There will also be groups that want change later on and it will be a cycle if it is born from violence that was initiated by a group that suffered due to your actions that they did not believe in. That is what causes the cycle of violence. You cannot place every revolution under the same umbrella, in my opinion, even those that do end up with a cycle that is descibed. For example, the many countries that were violently colonized by superpowers and had their revolutions for independence, a revolution to rid their countries of violent dictatorships/other oppresive governments. It usually does not end after one, but the formation of a new country is hard. Finding a fair system when your country has spent decades in poverty and ruled by predatory practices are rarely fixed in one try. People are not perfect.
Not to mention how the doctor brings up that this has happened 15 times before. Clearly he knows a revolution should not be stopped through violence, but by bringing everyone to negotiations before all of the death and destruction forces them there. Which he knows from his own experiences, but it takes both sides to have them end up in the same place that many times.
It is something we have seen multiple times in the past few years, with countries pushing for peace talks and ceasefires in multiple ways, only for countries with larger militaries to ignore them.
I will admit I am no expert on Doctor Who. I was very sheltered growing up, and I was raised in a cult. I was presented with a very warped perception of the outside world and a very racist, xenophobic, homophobic, all the hateful views people who were not the same as what the cult wanted me to be. But, while I didn't know much about what was out there, the small glimpses I caught made the arguments dubious at best. I have to work a lot to educate myself on all of the gaps in my education and the experiences of people from other countries and situations, learning about the fucked up past of my government, and also catch up on all of the media I was not allowed to view, considering I started with a baseline of edited Disney movies. I had to hide a lot for the majority of my life, and still have to when I deal with my family, as certain aspects of myself would be met with even more hatred than I am met with now. I also have had to physically fight for my survival (not in a war setting). There are so many different people whose lives I couldn't have even created in my imagination that exist in the real world, and it takes work to learn to expand your mind in that way (and reprogram yourself). But you do end up being able to place yourself in the shoes of even imaginary beings once you have done it enough.
One almost wants a crossover with SOMA...
Atleast it aint has political has one of 13s episodes
How didn't I realise that nicola Murray from the thick of it was in this episode. I am ashamed 😞
More like the entire 13 doctor teneir
Been a while since I watched the episodes, but I still know they're about three hundred times better than the Marvel Secret Invasion show.
The Doctor's speech to Kate and Zygon-Clara at the end was such an incredible scene. Every bit of his speech was so on point.
As much as I prefer my entertainment (of any variety - tv show, movie, video game, novel) to be an escape from reality and not politically/religiously preachy, this was just such an amazing scene. It fit so well, both into the situation and into the Doctor's character.
I can never forget "SIT DOWN AND TALK"
Better than MCUs Secret Invasion
I don’t like how he explicitly says ‘the last 15 times’. It’s been, what, three years? Let’s say four years generously since DotD - so they independently get to the point to trying to wipe each other out and the entire conflict plays out every THREE MONTHS??
Yes, this is what Marvel's Secret Invasion tried and failed to be.
So much better than Secret Wars!
Imposters among us huh? Sounds sus if you ask me. But if you need to vent about it.
This story was the demise of UNIT until it's true return in 2022.
Two episodes of this show does Secret Invasion better than the Secret Invasion show
And don’t forget these two episodes only had a budget of around 2 million, while “Secret Invasion” infamously had a budget of *211.6 million* .
doctor who in among us when?
It's a great episode, but it's no more political than the time the Seventh Doctor fought Margret Thratcher.
Amogus
1:18 umm actually... in terms of televised episodes Trial of a Time Lord is the "biggest" (Unless for some reason you count the Key to Time). Or... it's Thie Five Doctors - at 90 minutes long
This is what Disney+ Secret Invasion tried to be
raaaah (first)
I am surprised none of the UNIT soldiers got angry at the Zygons for pretending to be family members, before shooting them all out of spite. It's weird that they all reacted the same way.
it's also real apparent that truth or consequences was based off isis/whichever name was applicable at the time, since iirc that group changed names a lot. personally I would more describe the story as a political commentary on the political situation at the time rather than specifically anti-war, because whilst it does have anti-war elements it more focuses on the fear that there may be bad actors within a group of refugees, and then rightfully it points out that those exact attitudes drive people to extremism, as well as other general bigotry towards traits of that group such as in this case the fact a large majority of syrian refugees are muslim, which iirc wasn't the most popular position to hold. however, despite how well I think the story handled its premise, I feel like it is propped up by that speech. I'm not saying it's only good because of that, since it is a genuinely great story, but I feel like if the speech wasn't there the story would feel a lot more of a 'this topic is relevant; let's do that!' type of deal.
I wrote a paper in college around these episodes. We had been reading a book on America's immigration crisis along the Southern Border, which was really biased on the immigrants' side. At one point it talks about what it calls the "Area of Exception," essentially another term for othering and making the immigrants' lives expendable. The paper was about that term and what could be done about it. Using these episodes, especially the final speech which I linked in the paper, I showed how the book was guilty of doing the same to the border patrol, local governments, etc. All it was doing was escalating the conflict for the author's own gain. The only true solution was to forgive and work together to account for both sides.
I didn't have time to initially turn in the paper, so I turned in what I had. The professors were so intrigued that they gave me an extension to finish it, and it ended up being one of the few assignments I got a perfect grade on.
It's definitely the one with Trump man, right?
yeah but communist russia did do that. so uh
Guys, I think he thinks this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message, referring to the fact that this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message. ecause this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message. I cant believe this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message!
The story the MCU Secret Invasion wishes it could have been
At least this story had some set up
Oh look it's secret invasion but not shit
Marvel’s Secret Invasion wanted to be this two-parter.
I would say the ONLY thing that hurts the argument for me is the same reason why X-men doesn't totally work as an allegory: IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES IN THE REAL WORLD DON'T HAVE SUPERPOWERS! I think the doctor and kate wanting to know if osgood is a zygon does kind of make sense, because a renegade zygon could easily take osgood's form and infiltrate them, or one of the "good" osgood zygons could turn on them any time by turning into someone else and they wouldn't know it.
Come on, there are loads of stories at least as political as this one, especially in classic Who.
Meanwhile Israel and Palestine don’t seem to get it
If the plotline was "Zygons invaded earth and kicked most of the population out of their land and homes outside of a few heavily occupied and tormented open air prisons and now some humans are rebelling" I imagine the Doctor would have a very different outlook on the topic.
That moment when Doctor Who did Secret Invasion better than Marvel 😐
Capaldi Era is basically apolitical when compared to anything seen in Season 11 or 12.
Nothing gets as apolitical as “Oxygen” ‘s overt condemnation of the capitalist system, doesn’t it? Meanwhile, Series 11 has an episode alluding to Amazon and its poor treatment of workers where the Doctor sides with the corporation.
Folks like you need to realize that Chibnall’s era really isn’t more political than previous ones, and is in fact quite regressive on some aspects, starting with the choice of having the first female Doctor more passive and insecure compared to her predecessors.
You take an episode like “Orphan 55” and call it political, but 70s stories like “The Green Death” and “Invasion of the Dinosaurs” (even “Inferno” to some extent) not only tackled the exact same topics but went much more in-depth on the root of the problem.
@@talesofawhovian9690it's just shit execution. The destroyed earth with the hotel episode was extremely poorly done.
Instead of "oh em gee it's urf!!! But destroyed!!!!!", it should have been just another planet and let the audience put the pieces together. Unfortunately, chibnall has the writing talent of a rock
@@Sillimant_ Oh, I agree. Chibnall is not good at integrating political elements in a story, with his attempts at commentary being surface-level, pedestrian, and often clunky.
It’s just annoying how a certain group of people think Doctor Who ‘going political’ under Chibnall is what made it poor, when not only tackling real-life themes has always been a huge part of the show (and sci-fi as a whole), but it was the underwhelming writing and overall bad execution of said themes that made it not work.
This is so funny because 11 and 12's big political statements feel like a mix of cynical patting themselves on the back and outright reactionary ideas disguised and 8-10's big political ideas are like "capitalism is evil, free will is great, punch racists, etc etc"