Doctor Who's Poopy Dalek Story
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- Опубликовано: 9 авг 2023
- Time for Series 9 reviews! The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar is a pretty divisive two-part story, but what does Harbo think?
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In fact, the Dalek sewer exist in the very first Dalek story.
Shoutout the elderly couple walking their dog through the evacuated, UNIT-secured street during the Clara and Missy scene
expanded media probably be like "they were faction paradox, especially the dog which was really Bingle Bongle III from the planet Xestar 7 and had a blood feud with The Doctor"
@@HarboWholmes if fp sent agents for the sole purpose of prompting the "you're the puppy" line i would both love it and also not be surprised at all
I can't wait for the Big Finish audio-adventure about that couple
its funny cus you know ppl who make these jokes either Love BF and Fac Par. or have never read/heard a single story
In my headcannon it's a retired Missy and Doctor they're not a couple they're just their to break the fourth wall and fuck with the audience just for a laugh
The ending doesn't create a paradox, it's a great little bit of crossed wires. The Doctor thinks Davros is remembering shamefully being left to die as a little kid. In actuality, Davros thinks the Doctor is shameful for saving him as a kid because killing him then would have meant defeating one of his greatest enemies. It show's the stark difference in mindset between the two- one would regret leaving a monster to die, the other would regret not killing a kid for the greater good.
Best take I've seen on this point.
This exactly. I think I realized this my second or third time watching it and it blew my mind. Neither fully alluded to the events and it was never jarring because they bought thought they remembered it fully. Its the opposite of the “as you know Bob” trope everyone hates and ends up serving the story very well.
I agree with you but i ve seen people say: you never know with Moffat writing
And a regenerate Davros and his Deleks get a bit of regeneration as well? But is this a true case of regeneration or has there been a significant change in the Davros story, and possibly, as we saw in the Genesis story and these stories Davros is head sciencet in Genesis, some say he was an engineer and lab assistant, it was later on around Genesis he came up with the Deleks and was injured in the process. Still, an engineer only permoted to head sciencet mid way through genesis
Because of this, it sometimes believed he was the sole designer and sciencet who was responsible? There's a sideways look at Genesis and the origins of Deleks and Davros, and was it actually Davros or possibly the 4th Doctor and possibly all of them, though there is something chilling to think about Davros having met both the doctors and not really knowing it in genesis? It is possible a newline in a future story could explain this issue because the doctor never forgets, at least unknowingly? I wonder, did you think about the doctors first encounter with the Deleks on Skaro a thought he even though his the first doctor, surely he would have a little memory of Davros and perhaps, but that is if he knew about Deleks a mystery?
This is so clearly the point, Davros is criticising his compassion - he doesn’t call out him abandoning him as a child because he would actually respect that far more.
personally i really love this 2 parter because of the dynamics between missy, clara and 12, one thing I wish they touched on was the fact that being put in a dalek surely would've brought up memories of oswin for clara but i get they didn't cause of time
tbh i forgive anything shit in this 2 parter for the simple reason of the chaotic duo that is missy and clara
That’s how I feel
Capaldi is deffo an actors actor. Even in episodes with weaker plots like this one if you have moments in there where Capaldi can just do his think and command the room and you allow him to act then you have created magic. He is one of those actors that when he is in thoe moments you cannot take your eyes off him and you don't want to.
Yeah, it's pretty telling that he has just as much presence whether he's the Doctor on goofy space adventures or Malcolm Tucker swearing at Ollie Reader in a urinal.
We don't even see his whole face, and he has one line "no, sir, all 13!" but it's a scene that sticks in my mind from the 50th special.
Attack eyebrows, indeed!
Davros and The Doctor’s dynamic is the best it’s ever been. Michelle Gomez got to do so much more and some of her best material as a villainy protagonist here.
Two of the finest episodes in my opinion. Every narrative beat hits me like it's supposed to, even the nonsensical ones. Clara inside a dalek shakes me deep in my brain and in my bones. Missy's so naughty!
The thing about the Dalek begging for mercy in The Big Bang is that *the Doctor* didn't hear that line, so of course he still wouldn't know that the Daleks knew the word.
As a Dalek story it’s kinda bland but not bad but yh as a story to deepen the relationship between davros and the doctor it’s quite good the dialogue between the 2 characters is realy heartfelt at moments showing they were once friends and even know they are enemies the doctor still cares that davros is dying
I totally agree!! I feel like the reason I like these episodes is because of the great character work. This season really excels at that
This is not a Chinball episode.
@@mayotango1317
That's also a good point.
Rewatching the series after the Chibnall era was released was truly amazing because I didn't take it for granted.
@@Melina_Evarblume_Seelie Also because you are a blind Rose/Tennant fanboy.
@@mayotango1317 Nah, not quite.
There's a few stinkers but it's generally just... better written.
The Dalek casing saying mercy in front of The Doctor actually does makes sense character wise. Yes, we did hear it in a previous finale, but that was in front of River, the Daleks have never once said mercy outside of those two instances, so it makes sense why the Doctor is shocked about that over us being shocked about it.
"Admit it, you've all had this exact nightmare" I _do_ love that bit 😂
For all we know, Davros might be a name like John, in human society.
That lad could have been literally _anyone_ !
Yeah like at least have a surname so we can easily know it was him.
I personally quite enjoy this story it brought back davros and also the 12th doctor and davros dynamic is amazing
I love this story, it has an amazing dynamic story between Davros and The Doctor. I think the issue is that people call it a Dalek Story. It isn't one, it is a Davarous story.
I personally loved this two part story for what it did, especially Davros and the doctor's banter, and I also don't feel that the fact we are shown Davros is scheming takes away from it. In fact the way I see it, it rather enhanced it, as this is Davros's last ditched plan, so he is still being genuine and honest when he speaks to the doctor. As... if his plan fails, then he is going to die, so he may as well lay everything out now so that theres something left behind of him for the man he respects most of all to remember.
Even the way the doctor knew he was being tricked adds ti this, they've been enemies for so long, that they know eachother just that well. It reads less as them really hating eachother, and more a almost mutual respect and understanding of eachother. So, I have to disagree with your point about the whole, being spoiled to Davros's plan as... well, if anything knowing he was still scheming just shows how he really was dying.
(edit)
I do agree however, that the idea of the Daleks being the real villain, once again, would have been just as compelling. It fits with their problem of constantly betraying their creator before then bringing him back out of a nescessity.
But remember, Davros made the daleks in order to save his people, so of course he'll do anything to ensure they survive.
I recently went back and started watching the Classic Who serials, and in the first Dalek serial, one of the companions gets into a Dalek casing as a disguise. He never encounters the same difficulties of being unable to speak properly that Clara did, and when watching I found it strange that Moffat had done that in the episode. Like, had he not watched the first ever Dalek serial? Or did he just not remember? I dunno, it was just weird to think about.
To be fair, Daleks have changed a LOT since then
That’s common for long running franchises though. For example “Dalek” shows that their casing burns people if they touch it but that’s been ignored a few series after
A wizard did it
Those Daleks where also "deactivated" if they weren't in contact with their metalic floor, the first Daleks aren't the same as the later
Clearly Moffat saw the first Dalek serial since the sewers come from there.
I love that Missy's ultimate ambition in this story is that she thinks of herself as the Doctor's greatest adversary and wants to prove herself superior to all the Doctor's other enemies. Ultimately amounting to her poking Davros in the eye in the most hilariously petty way possible.
On “Mercy”, the Doctor wasn’t there to witness the Dalek beg for mercy in the Big Bang so his shock is acceptable at seeing it here, and the Dalek saying it in the Big Bang is retroactively only possible because Twelve saves young Davros and instills that concept, so it’s internally consistent on that point
I think the Dalek mercy thing works here, because while we have seen Daleks say mercy before, the Doctor hasn’t, so him hearing it for the first time (to my knowledge) is an element that I liked.
You know man? The more time goes on the more i begin to realise that you and I have pretty much the exact opposite taste when it comes to 2010 onwards Moffat stories. I'll always listen to what you have to say on them ofc, I just found it funny.
I'm in the same boat, I feel like more often than not Harbo's opinion is the exact opposite to mine. It's interesting to hear the other side.
same here! sometimes we agree but often i'm just here listening to him slam my favourite episodes haha. i always listen though to hear the other side especially as he is very fair in the way he highlights the strengths and good moments even in episodes he didn't like
Man,
Maybe davros wasnt the hero we all thought he was
The Doctor didn't hear the stone Dalek this is Moffat addressing that scene. The Dalek sewer also makes perfect sense. It continues the parallels between Time Lords and Daleks. It's essentially explaining how the Crispy Master survived. The Veil is another instance of Time Lords continuing even when they should be dead and can't regenerate and yet we have also seen Time Lords die instantly rather than face a mind probe. Same with the Daleks. Regeneration may not be be genetic. It seems to be energetic. It which case it wouldn't mess with their doctrine of purity. They eat their victims after all
When I was a child in 1966, my family visited Italy and England for a summer. Whilst we were in England, the second Peter Cushing 'Doctor Who' feature film _Dalek Invasion Earth 2150 AD_ was released. Thankfully both my parents loved science fiction, and as we weren't sure whether it would be released in America theaters, we went and see it in a cinema there (I'm not entirely sure whether we saw it in Birmingham, or Bournemouth).
Understandably, up till then we were used to alien monsters being men in rubber suits, so it all but blew our minds to see these metallic pepper pots with the most awesome voices.
A few years later I did find out it was a TV program in England, based on some photos in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine.
In the late 1970s, WOR-TV out of New York began showing the Tom Baker serials, starting with _Robot._ We weren't exactly given a proper explanation as to Time Lord regeneration, but background articles began to pop up so we began to understand the mythos.
But the Daleks still intrigued me. I loved (and prefer) the TV series TARDIS, and was thrilled when _Genesis of the Daleks_ first aired on American television.
So while I didn't mind RTD having Daleks be able to "climb" stairs, established in the terrible _Resurrection of the Daleks,_ I was _not_ thrilled they suddenly were simply able to fly (and be bullet proof). I was aware of Dalek flight via hover platforms established in the 1966 Dalek Annual, a copy of which we got while in England, what with Dalekmania being at its height at the time.
Moffat implying Daleks have "always" been "immortal" irks me no end (even more than the stupid looking "Paradigm Daleks").
I feel insulted that this season is nearly 8 years old.
When I first watched these two, the very obvious hints that Davros will betray the Doctor and that shot of Colony pretending to be a cable actually made me not expect the betrayal. With so many hints I thought, surely the twist is that there isn't one and Davros was completely sincere, especially at the point where he opened his eyes, I really thought they would go that way but, alas, no.
My ADHD brain loves this episode because there's so much to focus on
I know this story isn't very good but there's something eminently rewatchable about it. So many good individual scenes like the opening and Capaldi's arrival in the tank and the heart to heart with Davros. Highly entertaining 90 minutes.
I also like that the handmines are evocative of Daleks outside their casings in appearance
If Kaled names are common, like human names, the young boy named Davros could have just been a random kid, making the Doctor's abandonment of him quite amusing.
I mean if you time travel to the 1910s and find a little Austrian boy called Adolf Hitler you're not gonna think that's a coincidence
@@rauls.g.2518Adolf was a pretty common name in the Germanic regions at the time. You never can be too certain.
Also in Africa, there is a politician named Adolf Hitler. Imagine a time traveler mixing them up lol.
I do agree that this story is one of the weakest Dalek stories of New Who, but I will always defend the Davros / Doctor scenes. They're incredible, especially with the added context of the Big Finish audios like 'Davros' and the Genius for War Once and Future audio. I have no doubt that Davros was being 100% genuine when he was telling the Doctor not to lose the Time Lords again - it may have been part of a wider scheme, but if anything that makes it even more nefarious - Davros was using a moment of genuine vulnerability and sincerity to sell the greater deception, it's definitely something he would do. As for why he has eyes - Time War 4 explains that
The first part is really great. Its the With’s Familiar back half where things go wrong.
Thought this would be about the roawn Atkinson comic relief special. That's a poopy dalek story
This is such an interesting season, imo, really looking forward to these reviews.
On the whole, I quite like this opener. I like that it's messy and chaotic and unpredictable. Sometimes when episodes hang together too well you know where they're going and just want them to get on with it, but this one kept me guessing.
This was my first episode back into the Who fandom a few weeks ago, after YEARS of not watching and instantly hooked. I loved the interactions with Davros and the Doctor. Looking forward to more content from you!
This and the following Fisher King two parter are my most rewatched episodes of the 12th Doctor's era, both really good stories
i love these episodes entirely because of 12 and davro's conversation, also if davros would have died that wouldn't prevent them from bringing him back in the future whenever they wanted to seeing as the Doctor is a time traveler? we could just meet davros from another point in time lol
I actually love this two parter so much, mainly for its strengths that you point out such as the Doctor/Davros and Clara/Missy dynamics, as well as the character work and setting up the season. And since the daleks are probably the most common-law recurring villains, I really didn't mind that they played such a small role
(Also, I know the mercy thing is a plothole because of previous episodes, but I like to think that the reason that River's dalek knew the concept of mercy because the Doctor taught Davros that at a young age by going back and saving him, so I adore the ending)
Thank god ur doing both parts in the one video
Oh no not the stopped planes sequence where every single one is shown to be so low it would crash into a building a second later if it were flying xD
With regard to The Daleks being able to say "mercy," even though this was established during Matt Smith's first season finale, The Doctor wasn't there to witness it. It was just River and The Dalek, so this story is literally the first time The Doctor hears a "Dalek" beg for mercy.
It's just a fun 2 parter with some great characterisation for all the main players. I think sometimes we can over analyse stuff and in doing that we can ruin the act of simply enjoying it for what it is. Just my opinion...
"you've all had this exact nightmare" is a hilarious line XD
The best scene from this story has got to be when Davros and the Doctor get to have a good laugh together before Davros looks close to dying. Much like Spider-Man and Doctor Octavious (if you read Superior Spider-Man comics) or Sonic and Eggman, both the Doctor and Davros have come a long way since their initial encounter and even though they were on opposite sides they still had their moments together, like two sides of the same coin.
Huh, just realised that you could kinda see this as the master/missy getting ideas from davros about harnessing regeneration to create an unkillable army in the timeless children....
Series 9 at long last! I've always remembered the scene of Clara trapped in the Dalek best, as Missy's manipulation and Jenna's acting really sold me on the helplessness of the circumstance, as well as pushing the strength of development in Clara and the 12th Doctor's relationship thus far since Deep Breath. 🖤👏
I don’t mind the Dalek stuff in this episode. Particularly with the machinery stuff. They’re still mutants genetically altered to hatred but the casing adds further fuel in case they develop a conscience.
Series 9! Been waiting for the Heaven Sent review for so long! I can't wait.
Interesting video, and great to see other opinions on it, but this is personally one of my favourite Dalek/davros stories.
I remember watching this during my "doctor who is only good when it's scary" era (I was 10 years old). But it hindsight I just see it as 'eh fine enough'
I like how Missy just boops Davros' eye. This is one of my favourite 12th Doctor stories for a lot of reasons but I don't think other people will have pointed out that particular detail.
These are two of my favourite stories, I think they are excellent and showcase DW at its best, in fact my then girlfriend thought she hated DW but found herself watching it with me and being shocked how much she enjoyed it. After these she was hooked and we watched from Eccelestone together but these pulled her in, I think that says so much about them
The second half is just very shoddy and quite silly. The set up was really good and then just fumbles it. I watched the episode again recently and have the same feelings.
In hindsight, this story felt like Doctor Who was trying to relaunch the 12th Doctor into this pseudo 11th mockup. With a couple of tweeks, it could've made a decent season finale.
You clearly haven't seen the Williams-era Fourth Doctor.
Matt Smith is subtle compared to that nutty lunatic.
Time for my favorite season, yay!! Super excited to see your thoughts :) I really like this episode, all because of the great character interactions. Personally, the relationships and character interactions are what really makes or breaks a good episode for me. I think that's why I enjoy episodes like this, while certain other eras (*cough* Chibnall *cough*) ring hollow for me
Yeah, this is fair and balanced. I loved and hated pretty much the same things you did.
I would say that stealing Time Lord energy is not the same as stealing Gallifreyan genes. Stealing Artron power is the same as stealing any other technology, which the pepper pots have no problem doing, so I don't think the Dalek purity BS they believe would be an issue. Even if it raised an eyestalk, it can be justified by it just being a tech steal, not a gene steal.
The fact they can identify Skaro from any other quarry in Wales is astonishing. 🤣🤣
I know it becomes really explicit throughout the rest of this season, (and it’s actually one of my favourite parts about it) I that I love the doctor and Clara s relationship and the depths to which they will go for each other.
I love these episodes. Thes were the first taht made me cry. And Missy is just a joy to watch.
Series reviews are back baby 🎉
Davros has died so many times. Killing him again is more predictable than what we got.
Great analysis review
I saw the thumbnail and thought: 'That's not really fair, it's not so much a Dalek story as a Davros story and while I agree that it's not a great Dalek story I like the episodes.' it's quite funny that you say exactly: 'It's not really a Dalek story but more of a Davros story.'
I kinda miss Davros. Hes only ever appeared in new who era twice
There's definitely enough to enjoy in this episode even if the episode as a whole doesn't quite hang together
Good review of this story. This was my first Doctor Who story in Post High School and When this story was first broadcasted, I was 4 months out of High School. I will say it is not perfect and there are a lot of questionable decisions. One of the things I did not like was why did The Doctor give his regeneration energy to Davros? There was no need for that, and I felt like Missy was forced into this story. There are things I did like. I really like the sonic sunglasses and The Doctor playing guitar and he is like your grumpy grandpa going through a midlife crisis. I was shocked when I heard the little boy was Davros and my mouth hit the floor. I did not know Steven was going to bring back Russell T. Davies to write the first story and I think that would have been a good idea, because the new series of Doctor Who would have been ten years old and I think bringing back Rusell would have been a great way to celebrate 10 years of the new series. I am looking forward to your review of Under the Lake and Before the Flood.
I would’ve loved Davros bring betrayed. He’s ready to die, has genuinely come to terms. Doctor gives him some regen out of compassion, only for the Daleks to use that against him. Davros is confused, horrified. Maybe he uses his electric-glove to short the device and free the Doctor. Maybe he fights alongside the Doctor, if only briefly, before being killed by his own creations. What an ironic and potentially fitting fate that would have been.
Cracking good video, well done!
idk the "mercy" thing really only seems to be an explanation for why/how daleks could even know to say/understand the word mercy
I would have done this episode as a Doctor-Lite episode with Davros fighting in the war with the two-parter concluding with 12 saving Davros from the Handmine
before Missy showed up I got excited thinking at the time Colony Sarff was a corporal version of the snake incarnation of the Master before controlling Bruce
The Clara in a Dalek was absolutely chilling
I never realized that hulkamaniac daleks were a thing!
I wuold love to see Davors and the Doctor temporarly team up to face a bigger enemy
The HAVOC system is mentioned in the old TARDIS operation manual going back to the 1970's so at least it is nice nod to the fans.
If you play the old adventure games the first one shows the Dalek Paradigm rebuilding Skaro & they I believe use some kinda time thing the time Vortex thing that drove the young master insane. They rebuilt it & tried to destroy the earth using the thing. However the end of the story the Daleks are somewhat defeated in that they have no time vortex to allow them to conquer the universe however they still must rebuild somehow & this ties into this.
It’s hilarious that the Doctor plays “Pretty Woman” on the guitar for Missy and Clara.
I'm very old, so although Genysis of the Daleks was iconic, Day of the Daleks is still my favorite. I also liked the two Peter Cushing movies
When I watched this episode I completely missed cable sarf so I thought Davros was being sincere
A mercy grade for a story of mercy. How appropriate.
The moment I saw the hand.mine eyes...I knew it was Skaro before Davros says his name
This is a brilliant story
Witch’s Familiar is the episode that made me stop watching Doctor Who until my most recent catch up when I pushed through it. And when I revisited it…yeah. Yeah, I can see why it made me stop.
The Doctor forgot a 3rd option, take Davros as a companion or just move him to a point in time and space
before even watching: i LOVE this two parter. i genuinely like how its a davros story and not a dalek one!!
agreed on how this story would've been more effective if the davros were truly innocent and his creation took the reigns
I assumed the sewers were Daleks bot dyeing of old age
lets go series 9!! one of my favourite
I think the point you made at the end where you say that its all just about The Doctor saving a scared little boy it deffo links in with themes of that series. We get the realisation of the Doctor of why he jas the face he has and it being a reminder that he is someone who saves people but we see throughout this series that that is also a fault and a weakness with the Doctor because things go wrong. His determination for people to be saved is his downfall. We see it with Ashildr/Me and then ultimately with Clara. Yes the Doctor saves people but he can't save everyone. Death is part of life. Death is inevitable. We should accept that and embrace the art of finding a mew normal after death instead of sopping the death from happening in the first place. I deffo feel this opener set up these themes perfectly. Does the Doctor let his oldest enemy die? Should he kill him early in his time stream to prevent future death? The literal battle between life and death is I feel the main through line of this series. I feel that should have been the case instead of The Hybrid storyline. It does fit with the Doctor's character way more. In the past there have been moments where the body count has weighed heavy on the Doctor's soul and being able to save someone and prevent catastrophe is cathartic and healing for The Doctor. So diving into that part of the Doctor more and having it as the through line for a series would have been a way better stoyline than The Hybrid.
RTD did that dumb thing before and turned the Tenth Doctor into a manic depressive who can barely do anything.
I feel really old hearing that this series premiere premiered in 2015😢😂
I haven't watched these episodes in a long time but glad someone else also didn't like how Davros had an evil plan the whole time. I remember that being one of the things that annoyed me watching was that it introduced so many interesting ideas for the Doctor and Davros and then noped out of that at the last second. Not just Davros being evil but the Doctor knowing beforehand and exploding the sewers as well.
Another one that bugged me that was similar was the fakeout regeneration in The Lie of the Land. It was so obviously fake, and it would have been more interesting if it had been real. Like imagine if mid-season the Doctor went bad and the companion shot him, he regenerated and then had to reevaluate the decisions he made as his previous incarnation to drive his own friend to kill him. That'd be crazy and bold and maybe even a total mess but it wouldn't be boring or stale or feel cheap.
I love this two parter tbh
I remember an interview with Moffat about these episodes where he said he watched every single davros episode before writing this two parter. It really shows, it feels like the best and worst of every davros episode rolled into one:
It's gotgenesis of the dalek levels of davros doctor dialog, a stupid misunderstanding of how daleks work from destiny of the daleks and even squirty stuff from revolution lol
Hold on we could’ve had a trial of Davros written by RTD? That’s gutting
There are people who didn't like this episode??? Who?? Also, glad to see the series reviews back, I was really looking forward to series 9 and 10 reviews as they're some of my favourites in New Who
Yes. I for one HATE these episodes.
People liking this episode is odd.
@@Joey15811
Please, don't try to justify anything you say.
I didn't like this episode either, so there are a few.
right?? they are so well done!! and the dynamics are chefs kiss
Never been this early for a video
Mr Tardis: Good, let the hate swell within you
To me, having the Daleks in THAT early felt wrong. Back then, Daleks were a real threat and usually saved for finales. This 2 parter felt small and condense in one area. Don't get me wrong, it's classic Who-fashion, but it felt like it was too isolated
in series 10,are you going to talk about that alongside torchwood children of earth or not?!
I always thought the daleks saying Mercy was a way to keep continuity, since the Doctor wasn't with River when it said it in The Big Bang.
Arent some of the inconsistencies the fact that the story takes place in an alternate universe where The Doctor hadnt saved Davros? Like the one we see in Pyramids of Mars when the Doctor leaves before defeating Sutekh?
It all takes place in a point between him abandoning young Davros and saving him? Timey wimeyand all that?
I guess the way it ended on Davros’s part at least kind of allows him to make a comeback in the future should Russell ever wanna do that with Ncuti. I was of course hoping Chibnall would with Jodie in one of his new year Dalek specials, but as usual with him the golden opportunity was not only lost but purposely thrown onto a garbage truck bound for the far east never to be seen again
The Sonic Shades should have been a Sonic Guitar instead. A Sonic Guitar would have been far more interesting and visual.