ANSWER: the reason the witnesses were excommunicated (most for calling out Joseph's polygamy), was that if they had admitted they lied in the commision of fraud (fake church collecting money), then they and their estates/families would have been subject to court proceedings. There were numerous court proceedings already taking place as the mormon church moved from state to state leaving a trail of fraudulent banks and bankruptcies in the wake.
My 4th great grandfather was another person outside of the official 11 witnesses to see the gold plates. Harrison Burgess. When he was about 20. He was serving a short mission when it happened. His autobiography is available online. ❤️
I'm not a latter day saint but am fascinated about these issues. Could you guys estimate how much 40-60lb lead, iron, copper or tin have cost back in 1829, Palmyra? It would tell something about the forging theory. Could he have realistically afforded to that amount of metal?!
FAIR has an article about this. Even 40lbs of lead, the cheapest metal, would have been several hundreds of dollars. More than Smith had access to at the time.
The amount of time and effort that would have gone into fabricating the Book of Mormon would have been astounding. Especially for a poor farm boy who was barely literate. In order for it to be a fabrication, it would have required immense amounts of time and money, for little to no guarantee that your forgery would ever pay off.
@@michaelbennett7561exactly. If Joseph smith was a fraud there are better ways to go about being a fraud. Instead he dedicated his entire life to it and died defending it
Joseph Smith actually just heard about this story in the news because some Native American artifacts were found and it was said that they were brass pieces of sheet metal with writing on them. See: Fawn Brodie No Man Knows My History
One of my direct relatives is at times listed as one of those who felt the plates while they were covered with a piece of cloth. He, my 5th great grandfather, also provided food and paper, and other necessary supplies during the translation process so Joseph and Oliver didn't need to stop and work to earn money to complete the translation. My relative is Joseph Knight Sr.
@jmhatutube. It seems a bit strange that these eight witnesses were mostly related to each other as David says. He compares them to the 12 apostles but, they weren’t blood relatives and often argued and competed with each other. But relatives are often in cahoots with each other. It’s a route people go down and I can understand why
@@cultfiction3865 You don't know what you think you know. Peter and Andrew were brothers. James and John (The sons of Zebedee) were brothers. There's 4 of the Apostles that defy your thinking.
@@KevlarX2 well maybe a few of them were related but let’s be honest, they demonstrated powers of raising the dead, healing the sick and lame and the crippled. So they had Gods spirit without question. Why would God give his spirit to men that bear false witness? Can that be said about these 8 men? Did they raise the dead and cure the lame?
Can you tell me where you found that clip of the witnesses holding a looking at the plates? I remember seeing this video in seminary but can't find it now
Hello! F&B editor here. If you're referring to the clip at 0:09 (and, I guess, in lots of other places throughout the video), it comes from a short film called "A Day for the Eternities," which can be watched on RUclips in its fulness here: ruclips.net/video/KIqv3DI6PFg/видео.html 🙂
I am trying to find the testimony of the 8 witnesses with their actual signatures. The only document I have been able to find has handwritten names but it doesn't have their actual signatures, does anyone know where it can be found?
None of those witnesses saw the plates with their own eyes, but said that they saw it spiritually, which is basically the line that Joseph Smith gave them to say to people and also for them to attempt to admit to themselves that they had actually seen something
@@RiverogueLander the 1800's were rife with kooky new christian denominations. it was easy to sway a bunch of barely literate dummies, just as it is easy to sway the barely literate dummies of this modern age. hell, i looked back at the foundations of my sect, baptist, and those motherfuckers were batshit crazy(lol some would say we still are). anyway, "people dumb" and you can convince them of anything.
How come critics of the church always seem to love going over all the small details of early church history? Is it because some of the events seem odd or strange when you take them out of context?
yup :) Basically. I was a critic, I did that alot. I ignored everything that actaully gave the church strength, Their is alot alot alot of Strength in the Church's History we as members I think over Look sometimes. Their are so many miracles, The Parting of the Sky's and Rain at funerals, The Healing of hundreds. Angels being seen by many of the people who struggled with polygamy. The Trully miraculous Miracle of the book of mormon, The Book of Abraham actually lining up with other book of abraham texts that werent all available to joseph smith when he translated the book of abraham in which he would have needed all of the other several book of abraham texts which had not been translated yet or discovered, Also The Book of Enoch that would have been Nearly Impossible to create the way he did when several of the documents he would have needed to create it, werent discovered, Available, or Translated, and many have just been barely discovered from ancient tombs, And that everything in the church's History Lines up incredibly amazing with Biblical Prophecy, and Rabi's Throughout the Centurys, etc. It's Easy to frame someone like Joseph Smith as doing what he did to get girls, When you ignore the fact that literal angels talked to many of them, and the fact that polygamy happened in the bible, Was happening all over the world at this time, and that God allowed polygamy for very many loving Reasons.
@@Herosoulstone Miracles like those are nice., but I haven't anchored my testimony on anything in early church history, because I simply cannot know everything about what happened. There are indeed a lot of eyewitness accounts of miracles, visions, and angels. I'm not sure about the book of Abraham or Enoch though. And the Bible is a confusing mess that always seems to contradict itself. But you are right that the good parts of church history outweigh the bad. The only thing I truly care about is that we try our best to follow the law of Christ.
@@SlayingtheGloom theirs a lot Stuff people ignore about the book of Abraham and the book of enoch that Critics won't touch cause theirs no explanation logically for how joseph did it, That helps the Church out Enormously, The Church Focuses alot on faith and even Pages Like FairMormon don't Go over it as much because We Want "Faith" to be our main focus in Christ.. I Could go over it, But Christ is my true Focus, if it helps bring people to Christ then i do. But I Agree 100% Following Christ is trully the main Objective, for my journey i had to go through all of evidential stuff before i came to the conclusion Christ was trully real and their and a part of this church. Now that iv'e Gotten to this point, Christ is my Ultimate Role Model and I want to follow and be more like him
@@joeoleary9010 I would say it's fairly significant, but the most important thing is that we have the book of Mormon. This detail is an example of something critics of the church would like to talk about, because it seems suspicious when taken out if context.
To the first question, all we know is that they had "the appearance of gold" which could be any number of alloys. To the second, "by the Gift and Power of God".
The Gospel is enough! Ap. Paul said: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
The twelve apostles lived in poverty and were tortured to death. Several of the eleven witnesses had financial interest in Smiths success. Further more, more than the twelve apostles were witness to Jesus’s resurrection and the empty tomb. Lastly, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smiths revelations are contrary to scripture and church tradition. If you’re a Mormon reading this, I pray that your heart will be softened and you’ll see how you’ve been lied to.
Crazy how St Paul was warning us about mormonism in the letter to the Galatians 1 8.But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9.As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
Another crazy fact is how no historical proof shows any of the early fathers of Christianity practicing any mormon practices, such as polygamy, polytheism... etc.
Mormons basically say that Jesus was a lying with the promise He gave to Peter in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.” The Catholic church has never died and it is the world's oldest and largest continuously functioning international institution🤍
You don’t seem to understand what we believe. We believe that passage in the Bible exactly as it reads especially in context to the verses before it: (Matthew 16:16-18) 16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. He is talking about revelation that Peter received that Jesus is the Christ and how revelation is the rock upon which the church would be built. He also uses the name he gave him, Peter, which means stone - or seer stone. He tells him that revelation comes from God, and his name change denoted that he will be a Seer or one who sees and provides revelation from God. He also gives him the keys of the kingdom (power that we call priesthood) in the following verse.
And the Catholic Church was started by the Roman Emperor Constantine. The same Roman’s who crucified Christ. That church had absolutely NOTHING to do with God or His Son Jesus Christ. It was created some 200 years after Christ was Crucified.
@@mikkifrompreston An old comment, but I figured I’d still clarify a bit here. Read verse 14. It’s says right after that God will establish the word through as many witnesses as He sees fit. Be that physically seeing the book or preaching it, God is allowed to do as He pleases and as He deems good.
I found some golden plates in the park around my house, me, my friend and dog saw them and touch them with their hands and paw! I should start a new religion tax 0%! JOIN ME!!
@@pinassurtido8998 of course, I just love how even around the world and In different Faiths there's many things that are shared. Praise be to Heavenly Father, the Son our Saviour Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost amen!
If the 8 witnesses had all rescinded their statements or if nobody had been allowed to see the plates, would these hypothetical facts lower your confidence in Joseph’s claims?
@@brettmajeske3525: Not as self-evident as a yes, so I wanted to be sure I understood you. So, if your confidence level in Joseph Smith’s claims is at 100%, would the lack of these witness testimonies bring you to a 99%, a 90%, a 50%, a 0%? To use your comparison again, if the sun rose in the north, it would cause me to go from a 100% to probably a 5%.
@@seans5289 Well, as I stated in previous threads, witness testimony is the one of the weakest forms of evidence when not confirmed by other sources. Trying to enumerate responses to highly hypothetical situations is itself problematic. Real life is messy and it is difficult to analyze factors in a vacuum. In the alternate world you are imagining the dominos would fall changing the entire landscape. Butterfly wings and all that.
@@jasongast1806 from David Whitmer “Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris . . . called it ‘being in vision’. . . .A bright light enveloped us where we were . . . and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration, pp.138-139. Ellipses his). Now I admit, this is not the 8 witnesses, but the first 3, but then we continue. "When David Marks stopped at the Whitmers on March 1830, the eight witnesses “affirmed, that an angel had showed them certain plates of metal, having the appearance of gold that were dug out of the ground by one Joseph Smith.” They explained to Marks certain basic points about the Book of Mormon and its contents but claimed to have viewed the plates in vision only." (Hullinger, Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism)
When are you guys going to realise that all religions are man-made ? No matter how many times you says it is true, it will always remain a work of fiction. Well presented video though.
When a episode of ancient aliens explains the accuracy of the Enoch story and the book of Moses, the miracles in my life, and a farm boy property recreating Egyptian rituals when he could barely read🙂✅ (Sarcasm) but still a eye opening quote
@@jasongast1806 Do you believe that God is capable of hiding himself behind the veil and can pop out of the veil anytime that he pleases? We read in scripture that because of the House of Israel's sins that God was mad for several thousands years with Israel and hid his face all away from man and stayed behind the veil because of his sins, and wouldn't show his face but God also promised that in the last days he wouldn't hide his face away from man forever and that there would come a time and a day that he would again show his face...... God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ both descended down through heaven down into this world in the Sacred Grove to Joseph Smith to reveal themselves to him. But instead of there being a cloud of glory like it was in the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James and John and Jesus. The Father had no cloud around him when he appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith in the Grove so the Prophet could see who God the father and his Son was without the cloud obscurring them. But that a pillar of light did rest upon the prophet Joseph to protect him from God's glory as God came down into his presence to meet up with him, you see God is a being that is more brighter than the noonday sun so the prophet had to be transfigured in order to be protected from all all his light and glory just as Peter James and John and Jesus also had to be transfigured before the Father would descend down to speak with them from inside the cloud.... Otherwise if the prophet was not transfigured when the Father and the Son both came down out of heaven to appear to him, he would have been instantly dead...So would have Peter James and John been instantly dead if they were also not transfigured to be protected from the glory of God....
@@RiverogueLander You guys have it incorrect if you are saying there is only just one single member in the Godhead..There are three members in the Godhead. For God goes by the Law of Witnesses. God doesn't work alone all by himself. The Holy Ghost bears record of both God the Father and also the Son. And the Son Bears Record also of the Father. And the Father also bears record of the Son. And the Son gets all his instructions from the Father who gives the instructions to him from heaven. The Father is a separate being from the Son. ""Think not that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not send me twelve legions of angels?" So we know the Father is a separate entity existing in heaven that instructs Christ on what to say and on what to do.
ANSWER: the reason the witnesses were excommunicated (most for calling out Joseph's polygamy), was that if they had admitted they lied in the commision of fraud (fake church collecting money), then they and their estates/families would have been subject to court proceedings. There were numerous court proceedings already taking place as the mormon church moved from state to state leaving a trail of fraudulent banks and bankruptcies in the wake.
My 4th great grandfather was another person outside of the official 11 witnesses to see the gold plates. Harrison Burgess. When he was about 20. He was serving a short mission when it happened. His autobiography is available online. ❤️
"Spiritual eyes"
That’s the KEY lol. It’s worth looking into how many turned around and felt scammed after this
I'm not a latter day saint but am fascinated about these issues. Could you guys estimate how much 40-60lb lead, iron, copper or tin have cost back in 1829, Palmyra? It would tell something about the forging theory. Could he have realistically afforded to that amount of metal?!
Wow I never thought of that! Nice thought
FAIR has an article about this. Even 40lbs of lead, the cheapest metal, would have been several hundreds of dollars. More than Smith had access to at the time.
The amount of time and effort that would have gone into fabricating the Book of Mormon would have been astounding. Especially for a poor farm boy who was barely literate. In order for it to be a fabrication, it would have required immense amounts of time and money, for little to no guarantee that your forgery would ever pay off.
@@michaelbennett7561exactly. If Joseph smith was a fraud there are better ways to go about being a fraud. Instead he dedicated his entire life to it and died defending it
Joseph Smith actually just heard about this story in the news because some Native American artifacts were found and it was said that they were brass pieces of sheet metal with writing on them. See: Fawn Brodie No Man Knows My History
One of my direct relatives is at times listed as one of those who felt the plates while they were covered with a piece of cloth. He, my 5th great grandfather, also provided food and paper, and other necessary supplies during the translation process so Joseph and Oliver didn't need to stop and work to earn money to complete the translation. My relative is Joseph Knight Sr.
Nice
@jmhatutube. It seems a bit strange that these eight witnesses were mostly related to each other as David says.
He compares them to the 12 apostles but, they weren’t blood relatives and often argued and competed with each other.
But relatives are often in cahoots with each other.
It’s a route people go down and I can understand why
@@cultfiction3865 You don't know what you think you know. Peter and Andrew were brothers. James and John (The sons of Zebedee) were brothers. There's 4 of the Apostles that defy your thinking.
@@cultfiction3865 Actually multiple of the 12 were brothers or cousins.
@@KevlarX2 well maybe a few of them were related but let’s be honest, they demonstrated powers of raising the dead, healing the sick and lame and the crippled. So they had Gods spirit without question. Why would God give his spirit to men that bear false witness?
Can that be said about these 8 men?
Did they raise the dead and cure the lame?
The part that I find the absolutely strange is he was not allowed to keep them. 8 people got to see him, but we can't? Why not?
Im not LDS but i would say its a faith thing
Can you tell me where you found that clip of the witnesses holding a looking at the plates? I remember seeing this video in seminary but can't find it now
Hello! F&B editor here. If you're referring to the clip at 0:09 (and, I guess, in lots of other places throughout the video), it comes from a short film called "A Day for the Eternities," which can be watched on RUclips in its fulness here: ruclips.net/video/KIqv3DI6PFg/видео.html 🙂
Taylor over here delivering the good stuff!
Great work! Always love when you teach.
I am trying to find the testimony of the 8 witnesses with their actual signatures. The only document I have been able to find has handwritten names but it doesn't have their actual signatures, does anyone know where it can be found?
The followers of Christ were not the only witnesses of Christs resurrections.
True, but that is according to other followers of Christ.
None of those witnesses saw the plates with their own eyes, but said that they saw it spiritually, which is basically the line that Joseph Smith gave them to say to people and also for them to attempt to admit to themselves that they had actually seen something
Good suggestion sir to all non believers.just read the book of mormon and pray to god if the book and the story of mormons pioneers is true..
I did. God resolutely told me that the Book of Mormon was invented by Joseph Smith and his family and friends.
@@RiverogueLander the 1800's were rife with kooky new christian denominations. it was easy to sway a bunch of barely literate dummies, just as it is easy to sway the barely literate dummies of this modern age. hell, i looked back at the foundations of my sect, baptist, and those motherfuckers were batshit crazy(lol some would say we still are). anyway, "people dumb" and you can convince them of anything.
And the plates are where??
Can not wait for the unofficial witnesses!
And it was as good as I had hoped!
How do you know the Book of Mormon is true though? Can you do a video on that? I asked Mormons about this before. They were stumped and speechless.
How come critics of the church always seem to love going over all the small details of early church history? Is it because some of the events seem odd or strange when you take them out of context?
yup :) Basically. I was a critic, I did that alot. I ignored everything that actaully gave the church strength, Their is alot alot alot of Strength in the Church's History we as members I think over Look sometimes.
Their are so many miracles, The Parting of the Sky's and Rain at funerals, The Healing of hundreds. Angels being seen by many of the people who struggled with polygamy. The Trully miraculous Miracle of the book of mormon, The Book of Abraham actually lining up with other book of abraham texts that werent all available to joseph smith when he translated the book of abraham in which he would have needed all of the other several book of abraham texts which had not been translated yet or discovered, Also The Book of Enoch that would have been Nearly Impossible to create the way he did when several of the documents he would have needed to create it, werent discovered, Available, or Translated, and many have just been barely discovered from ancient tombs, And that everything in the church's History Lines up incredibly amazing with Biblical Prophecy, and Rabi's Throughout the Centurys, etc.
It's Easy to frame someone like Joseph Smith as doing what he did to get girls, When you ignore the fact that literal angels talked to many of them, and the fact that polygamy happened in the bible, Was happening all over the world at this time, and that God allowed polygamy for very many loving Reasons.
@@Herosoulstone Miracles like those are nice., but I haven't anchored my testimony on anything in early church history, because I simply cannot know everything about what happened. There are indeed a lot of eyewitness accounts of miracles, visions, and angels. I'm not sure about the book of Abraham or Enoch though. And the Bible is a confusing mess that always seems to contradict itself. But you are right that the good parts of church history outweigh the bad. The only thing I truly care about is that we try our best to follow the law of Christ.
@@SlayingtheGloom theirs a lot Stuff people ignore about the book of Abraham and the book of enoch that Critics won't touch cause theirs no explanation logically for how joseph did it, That helps the Church out Enormously, The Church Focuses alot on faith and even Pages Like FairMormon don't Go over it as much because We Want "Faith" to be our main focus in Christ.. I Could go over it, But Christ is my true Focus, if it helps bring people to Christ then i do. But
I Agree 100% Following Christ is trully the main Objective, for my journey i had to go through all of evidential stuff before i came to the conclusion Christ was trully real and their and a part of this church.
Now that iv'e Gotten to this point, Christ is my Ultimate Role Model and I want to follow and be more like him
@@joeoleary9010 I would argue it’s a bit more significant than they care to admit.
@@joeoleary9010 I would say it's fairly significant, but the most important thing is that we have the book of Mormon. This detail is an example of something critics of the church would like to talk about, because it seems suspicious when taken out if context.
Why did he not take pictures of them or sth
Im sure he couldve done that since he was gathering followers
Photography was invented in 1839, the translation happened in 1830. I am certain you can see the issue.
@@brettmajeske3525 it was invented in 1826
What were the plates made of? 🤔 how did he translate them?
To the first question, all we know is that they had "the appearance of gold" which could be any number of alloys. To the second, "by the Gift and Power of God".
@@brettmajeske3525 bwahahahahahahahaaaa
The Gospel is enough!
Ap. Paul said: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
The twelve apostles lived in poverty and were tortured to death. Several of the eleven witnesses had financial interest in Smiths success. Further more, more than the twelve apostles were witness to Jesus’s resurrection and the empty tomb. Lastly, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smiths revelations are contrary to scripture and church tradition. If you’re a Mormon reading this, I pray that your heart will be softened and you’ll see how you’ve been lied to.
The witnesses proved that the restoration was about to begin.
Crazy how St Paul was warning us about mormonism in the letter to the Galatians 1
8.But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
9.As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
Another crazy fact is how no historical proof shows any of the early fathers of Christianity practicing any mormon practices, such as polygamy, polytheism... etc.
That verse is written in the chapel of the cathedral of the Madeline in Salt Lake City.
Mormonism is one interesting religion. I wish it felt true to me because seems to be a great group of people.
Mormons basically say that Jesus was a lying with the promise He gave to Peter in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”
The Catholic church has never died and it is the world's oldest and largest continuously functioning international institution🤍
You don’t seem to understand what we believe. We believe that passage in the Bible exactly as it reads especially in context to the verses before it:
(Matthew 16:16-18)
16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
He is talking about revelation that Peter received that Jesus is the Christ and how revelation is the rock upon which the church would be built. He also uses the name he gave him, Peter, which means stone - or seer stone. He tells him that revelation comes from God, and his name change denoted that he will be a Seer or one who sees and provides revelation from God. He also gives him the keys of the kingdom (power that we call priesthood) in the following verse.
And the Catholic Church was started by the Roman Emperor Constantine. The same Roman’s who crucified Christ. That church had absolutely NOTHING to do with God or His Son Jesus Christ. It was created some 200 years after Christ was Crucified.
Does it become a problem if the 8 witnesses never signed their name as a testimony?
@@mikkifrompreston No it does not. It says two or three witnesses, plus a few others.
@@mikkifrompreston An old comment, but I figured I’d still clarify a bit here. Read verse 14. It’s says right after that God will establish the word through as many witnesses as He sees fit. Be that physically seeing the book or preaching it, God is allowed to do as He pleases and as He deems good.
I found some golden plates in the park around my house, me, my friend and dog saw them and touch them with their hands and paw! I should start a new religion tax 0%! JOIN ME!!
mandrean8 I'm in. How much is this going to cost me?
The seer stones makes the case for the book of Mormon even stronger.
how so?
Seer stones is a common occult practice so I'm not surprised if it occured, God and the practices to interact with God are found everywhere!
I know it's true, the witnesses saw it with their spiritual eyes.
The plates played a very important role to restore the true Church.
@@Daisy-kg4ho we believe it's true, that is all that matters.
@@pinassurtido8998 of course, I just love how even around the world and In different Faiths there's many things that are shared. Praise be to Heavenly Father, the Son our Saviour Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost amen!
If the 8 witnesses had all rescinded their statements or if nobody had been allowed to see the plates, would these hypothetical facts lower your confidence in Joseph’s claims?
If the sun started rising in the north and setting in the south would you revise your confidence in the current solar system modal?
@@brettmajeske3525: Absolutely. Wouldn’t it do so for you?
@@seans5289 Isn't my answer self-evident?
@@brettmajeske3525: Not as self-evident as a yes, so I wanted to be sure I understood you.
So, if your confidence level in Joseph Smith’s claims is at 100%, would the lack of these witness testimonies bring you to a 99%, a 90%, a 50%, a 0%?
To use your comparison again, if the sun rose in the north, it would cause me to go from a 100% to probably a 5%.
@@seans5289 Well, as I stated in previous threads, witness testimony is the one of the weakest forms of evidence when not confirmed by other sources. Trying to enumerate responses to highly hypothetical situations is itself problematic. Real life is messy and it is difficult to analyze factors in a vacuum.
In the alternate world you are imagining the dominos would fall changing the entire landscape. Butterfly wings and all that.
3@@@
First
Spoiler alert: no.
Really clever, well thought out response. I would say that the video evidences that they did in fact see and handle the plates.
@@joeoleary9010 Amazing that information was kept out of the video. Some would argue that's a fairly significant detail.
@@joeoleary9010 yes they did. It’s in there testimony
What source says they didn’t so I can read it for myself?
@@jasongast1806 from David Whitmer
“Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris . . . called it ‘being in vision’. . . .A bright light enveloped us where we were . . . and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration, pp.138-139. Ellipses his).
Now I admit, this is not the 8 witnesses, but the first 3, but then we continue.
"When David Marks stopped at the Whitmers on March 1830, the eight witnesses “affirmed, that an angel had showed them certain plates of metal, having the appearance of gold that were dug out of the ground by one Joseph Smith.” They explained to Marks certain basic points about the Book of Mormon and its contents but claimed to have viewed the plates in vision only." (Hullinger, Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism)
When are you guys going to realise that all religions are man-made ? No matter how many times you says it is true, it will always remain a work of fiction. Well presented video though.
When a episode of ancient aliens explains the accuracy of the Enoch story and the book of Moses, the miracles in my life, and a farm boy property recreating Egyptian rituals when he could barely read🙂✅
(Sarcasm) but still a eye opening quote
@@jasongast1806 Do you believe that God is capable of hiding himself behind the veil and can pop out of the veil anytime that he pleases? We read in scripture that because of the House of Israel's sins that God was mad for several thousands years with Israel and hid his face all away from man and stayed behind the veil because of his sins, and wouldn't show his face but God also promised that in the last days he wouldn't hide his face away from man forever and that there would come a time
and a day that he would again show his face......
God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ both descended down through heaven down into this world in the Sacred Grove to Joseph Smith to reveal themselves to him. But instead of there being a cloud of glory like it was in the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James and John and Jesus. The Father had no cloud around him when he appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith in the Grove so the Prophet could see who God the father and his Son was without the cloud obscurring them. But that a pillar of light did rest upon the prophet Joseph to protect him from God's glory as God came down into his presence to meet up with him, you see God is a being that is more brighter than the noonday sun so the prophet had to be transfigured in order to be protected from all all his light and glory just as Peter James and John and Jesus also had to be transfigured before the Father would descend down to speak with them from inside the cloud.... Otherwise if the prophet was not transfigured when the Father and the Son both came down out of heaven to appear to him, he would have been instantly dead...So would have Peter James and John been instantly dead if they were also not transfigured to be protected from the glory of God....
@@germanslice yes I do believe that
@@germanslice well that's a convenient cop-out.
@@RiverogueLander You guys have it incorrect if you are saying there is only just one single member in the Godhead..There are three members in the Godhead. For God goes by the Law of Witnesses. God doesn't work alone all by himself. The Holy Ghost bears record of both God the Father and also the Son. And the Son Bears Record also of the Father. And the Father also bears record of the Son. And the Son gets all his instructions from the Father who gives the instructions to him from heaven.
The Father is a separate being from the Son.
""Think not that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not send me twelve legions of angels?"
So we know the Father is a separate entity existing in heaven that instructs Christ on what to say and on what to do.