How Credible Were the Book of Mormon's 8 Witnesses? | LDS Discussions 53 | Ep. 1895
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- Опубликовано: 8 май 2024
- Were the 8 witnesses to Joseph Smith's golden plates actually credible? Or just gullible relatives caught up in his delusion? Shockingly candid statements from witnesses like Hiram Page and John Whitmer seem to contradict and undermine official LDS teachings about their testimonies. What are the implications of the past witnesses on today’s modern church? @NEMOTHEMORMON and @analyzingmormonism join John Dehlin to discuss!
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Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
00:06:30 Book of Mormon Prophecy of Eight Witnesses?
00:10:45 “Summary” of the Eight Witnesses
00:14:30 BH Roberts on the Eight Witnesses
00:18:10 The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses
00:20:45 About the Statements
00:26:35 Almost all were Related
00:28:35 Mark Twain
00:29:30 No Original Signatures
00:29:30 Oliver Cowdery was Willing to Deny His Testimony
00:37:45 The Church NEVER taught that anyone denied
00:38:20 What else do we have from the Eight Witnesses?
00:45:15 Messenger and Advocate Mar 1836
00:47:15 Letter from Stephen Burnett to Br. Johnson
00:52:00 Theodore Turley’s Memorandums, Apr 1839
00:53:40 Times and Seasons, Dec 1839
00:54:30 Lucy Mack Smith History
00:58:25 The Ensign of Liberty, Mar 1847
01:01:00 Marvin S. Hill on Hiram Page
01:03:20 Taking Another Look at the Testimonies
01:08:30 Thomas Ford, 1854
01:17:20 Millennial Star, June 1863
01:20:05 Historical Magazine, May 1870
01:23:54 How Did the Plates Look?
01:34:40 Deseret News Aug 1878
01:42:33 Interview with Myron H. Bond, Saints Herald Aug 1878
01:43:10 Samuel’s Testimony to Daniel Tyler, 1832
01:43:47 Jacob’s Testimony according to his son, John, Sep 1888
01:45:02 Closing Thoughts and Summary
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It may seem like a small point, but it's very important to constantly keep in mind that the "Witness" statements were prepared FOR the so-called "witnesses". They were not prepared BY the witnesses. They were prepared so that the statements would say exactly what Joseph Smith wanted them to say...and ONLY what Joseph Smith wanted them to say. There is no indication that any of the witnesses (other than Oliver Cowdery, who drafted the statements for Joseph) were even consulted before the statements were presented to them for their endorsement and acceptance. The primary beneficiary of the statements was...drum roll...Joseph Smith, since he is the one whose credibility needed to be bolstered. And of course all of the participants in this whole charade were men who were heavily invested in Joseph Smith's book project and were hoping the book would sell. They may as well have been writing testimonials for the founder of an MLM business that they were all invested in.
"--They may as well have been writing testimonials for the founder of an MLM business that they were all invested in.--" Correction: They may as well have been simply agreeing to not disagree with testimonials for an MLM business that were prepared FOR them by the founder of an MLM business that they were all invested in."
This is a brilliant team MS, I have enjoyed their collaboration on these perplexing and contradicting issues.
I love the humor, looking forward to more fun episodes!
Fantastic series, magnificent collaboration! Thank you all, love each of your contributions. Please do keep inviting Nemo the Mormon!
The funniest part of that Mark Twain quote is the part about the Whitmer family. Mark Twain was a genius amongst fools.
This Series are my Favorite. Always Well Done.👍
Great episode!! This is a dream team!! Julia, John, Mike & Nemo!!! 😮💨💪🏼🤌🏼✨🔥🤟🏼🎊🙏🏻🧖🏼♂️
Yes, the chemistry among the four is as much fun as their topics.👏
Congratulations on your engagement Julia!
Hold up but why does Julie have a problem with the declaration of independence
The 3 witnesses episode was incredible. I’m excited for this one!
An episode on the 3 nephites would be interesting. I wonder if there is even enough to go on to make a full episode 🤔
I enjoy these discussions and want to say thank you for having them. They help believers deconstruct from their nonsense beliefs..
I love LDS Discussions!
Nemo. Exactly how I feel. There is no way I take that bs seriously about plates and god
Yes, now that you can actually think about it! I mean no missionaries pushing you along!
@user-bw3fl7fj9w exactly. They still just teach by the power of God. Like seriously just say it how it went down. Let the investigator decide. Can you mind warp into believing? If yes...perfect. now give me your money and let's get you that special membership card. Lol
Haha! Nemo you walked into a land mine talking to Americans about their Constitution!! I’m Canadian and got your joke! 😂
The irony to me is that books as we know them are a relatively new invention. I was watching an educational podcast on the library of Alexandria which existed after the book of Mormon peoples left Jerusalem was basically a library of scrolls. I think calling things a book would probably be in and of itself anachronistic, but I could be wrong.
1:40:10 Yep. let me get you some wine, magic mushrooms & Ergot grain fungi, you'll get your vision, don't worry..
I just googled it and gold leaf paint has existed since ancient Greece... so maybe he painted paper?
That is grasping at straws 😂
I wondered that too. Theoretically you could paint or gild anything, including the lily. Wood, paper, iron, steel, even flat, polished stone (I'm sure a mason could provide some). Different weights, densities, thicknesses, different dimensions... different accounts.
But I like Nemo's idea, too, of warm candlelight producing a golden effect on a less golden surface. Cynical view: why not try all of the above, see how different people react at different times?
I really enjoy these discussions. I would love to hear more about the Kirtland Bank Scandal, what happened, who ended up with the money that was lost?
Great video. Four people is too many for this conversation.
Can't wait!!
This has been an extraordinary series, and the addition of Julia to the team is great. Keep digging up the truth, and thereby burying, the so-called "one true church."
My thoughts with the “seeing by faith” is like the emperor’s outfit that idiots cannot see so he walks around not dressed because nobody wanted say they didn’t see 😂
This is highly entertaining when wondering what pretzel logic the Mormon apologists will employ to explain Joe Smith’s scam. 🤣
Yes! Keep this series going. Always awesome. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
The concept is that the signed statement and other testimonies are contradictory. We're hearing the harmonized account of motivated believers "sticking to their story" but each individual experience is either extremely vague or suspiciously specific, mixed with spiritual language that can create plausible deniability
Yes. Plus it should never be forgotten that the original statements (the "official" ones that appear in the Book of Mormon) were not prepared by the "Witnesses". They were prepared FOR the witnesses in order for the statements to only say exactly what Joseph Smith wanted them to say. The "Witnesses" were simply required to endorse and accept the statements prepared FOR them AFTER the statements were already written for them. (As evidence goes in normal circumstances, the evidentiary value of the statements is zero, zip, nada...just garbage.) The official statements have no significant details beyond basic things that were simple elements of the story that Joseph Smith had already been pumping into the heads of the "Witlesses" for months (if not years). The thing that faithful members hang onto the most regarding the Witnesses is simply the fact that none of them at some point later in their lives confessed to being liars and/or fools for Joseph Smith. (As though it's human nature to want to confess to being a liar and a fool...when in reality human nature generally works in the opposite direction and few liars, cheats and fools ever want to admit to it.)
I know it must be there, but I can't find it. I'm quite sure there was a prophecy in the Book of Mormon that said: "In the mouth of 5, 10 or 200 Whitmers shall the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's translation be established."
My daughter got engaged in Paris to a Scotsman and will be moving there by the end of the year! And when the babies start to come, we will be moving there tooooo!! Congrats!
As a newer listener to Mormon stories I am shocked that intelligent people I value have been duped into believing in and following a scam artist, Joseph Smith! These faithful souls are from many past generations of followers and as I have learned the faithful obey. As a non-LDS listener I don't know the stories or have past baggage to get through as I listen and form conclusions from your guests and their knowledge and experiences. Thank you.
Got here just in time!
One meaning of Incredible is extraordinarily impossible😮😅😊
This episode made me realize that Joseph Smith must have had a ridiculous amount of rizz.
The ganging up on NEMO, in this video, is hilarious. I love the queens favorite subject.
Love the episode. Y si John, uno en español sería fantástico.
Estoy de acuerdo!
I think money, greed and power motivated a conspiracy between them.
Maybe add intimidation, of those who might change their minds about the conspiracy
Thin leaves of gold - see Ruth Taplin 'Gilding Chocolate Easter Eggs'. How thin can gold be?
Keep in mind that it (allegedly) wasn’t just gold leafs, but double sided engravings. The plates themselves had to be thick enough where tools could engrave letters without disturbing the engravings on the other side. And for there to be enough characters to translate into the BoM today the plates would have been 15 inches thick and over 400 pounds. Or if you go by the “canon” measurements given by the church the plates would have only weighed 200 pounds. And considering that (allegedly) Joseph Smith ran and carried them while being pursued by thieves we can only assume that even though Smith had a limp he had Herculean strength.
Mary Whitmer also saw the plates, the mother of the Whitmer men. I am sure that John has covered this before in his previous podcasts. I guess he can keep the same topics going as years go by. The 8 witnesses can be judged by their faith in their own experiences. It is nearly impossible to see their experiences two hundred years later. It is quite an accomplishment for the lds church to still be around, based on the spiritual experiences of its members.
When I hear about Mary Whitmer's story, my first reaction is to think: "Oh great, add another Whitmer to the list of "witnesses". The funny thing is that her story is so different. Martin Harris supposedly couldn't see the Moroni Magic Show because he didn't have enough faith, so he had to be coached for hours by Joseph Smith in order to have the "faith" to see what Joe was telling him he was supposed to see. After all of that, he was deemed worthy enough to get the Moroni Magic Show (or else he just got hungry and decided to play along so he could go home and eat a duck or something). But for Mary, Moroni was willing to just appear unannounced and uninvited, while Mary was shoveling manure or something, and pulled the gold plates out of an old backpack for her to look at. No big production. No worries about Mary being worthy or having enough faith. Maybe Mary was just that special. Or maybe you only need faith and worthiness to see the Moroni Magic Show with special effects and Super Glow lighting. No light show means...no faith required. "Hey, Mary. You don't know me, but I wanna show you some stuff I have in my raggedly dirty backpack here. Look! This is a hubcap from a '57 Chevy I picked up in my time travels. But that's not what I'm here to show you...here's the gold plates that Joe has been translating by looking at a rock in his hat. I'm still miffed about him not using the magic crystals and breastplate I gave him, but let's not dwell on that...."
I guess the point of having witnesses is to eliminate doubt. But what happened with all the witnesses when you hear all of their accounts and recollections it only leaves anyone interested with more questions and more doubts. If you critically think about it, I'd say they failed at the ultimate goal that they were trying to accomplish.
I think it would be better if they weren't all from the same two families!
This should be good
Thanks!
APOYO TOTAL A MORMON PODCAST STORIES
It looks to me that people who are drawn to join the Mormon religion (not those born in to it) have to be okay with thinking of themselves being more special than the rest of us. And I don't see awareness that 'prompting's' are most likely just one's ego talking so it seems set up for going off the rails. I grew up Quaker where there's no thought of or desire to be above others so is foreign to me though I'm sure there other religions which seek to make people feel special as part of the draw.
The ones that join are deeply insecure and telling them that they are part of something special is exactly what they want to hear.
@@monyetgoblog7038 and usually in a vulnerable place 😢
Those that join are also completely lied to. They are told only what is needed to get them baptized and then they have to find out these things in time. The history of the church is not what the missionaries teach.
The first time I heard of Quackery was reading about Daniel Boone. His life is fascinating, and in the show, they referred to the bible as the good book, if i am not mistaken or they have another book to read from. But I think it was embellished to make him look like a big hero. Maybe I am the one who fantasized about watching from a third world country. He was a good man, maybe that it was all. It is possible Joseph Smith saw that as one opportunity and took it. People were looking for guidance, and many will continue to look for it. It is in human nature, I suppose. I am an evangelical, not knowing what to do with myself and watching Mormon stories to figure out 😂😂😂. I should be ashamed. 😂😂
@@jake8882exactly!!
If all this was known to me 30+years ago..I'm sure I wouldn't have joined. Harder to get out then baptized!! Especially, after you feel you lost chance of marriage ( live in low members area, yet told only should date to marry in the Temple) and therefore, no children... I've made some nice friends... Unfortunately, now at an age they're dying or moving out of state. I've had some good times, hence I stay.. but, I know if I had all these details then...I wouldn't have joined! Oh, and yes.. they leave out so much before you join, even before you go to the Temple.... but then you are told only bad things for you in this life and next, if you break your covenants and Temple ordinances...
“If any of you lack wisdom ASK OF GOD…”
1:20:06 lol. Diamond spectacles, 50% larger than ordinary glasses. plate dimensions also very different. 6"x8"x6" gold is 205LB. (3 characters per word is not going to be feasible) especially if (2/3) sealed. maybe this is supposed to be the unsealed part? If 30LB is the weight, it's the weight of common "Tin" not gold..
Also...Smith claimed that he removed the "gold plates" from a box.... Where is this box? The "plates" were not merely buried in dirt. Was the BOX taken into heaven as well...?
Don't you understand it's kolobian magick 🤣🤣🤣🤣?
@@jeffcarlin5866 😂 lol. Good point. That hill was gone over by thousands of people looking for relics. Nothing was ever found to confirm the claims.
@@Pay-It_Forward Brigham Young claimed that the Hill Cumorah contained a cave that was FILLED with wagon loads of gold plates.... For some strange reason, none of those plates were ever found either....
@@jeffcarlin5866 Brigham Young claimed Quakers on the Moon.
Why doesn’t she like the declaration of independance??!??
I had a lot of skepticism about the credibility of the witness statements, until I heard that the reason the rest of us can't see the plates is because a glow-in-the-dark resurrected-man-angel named Moroni took them up to heaven, along with the magic translator crystals and the sword of Laban. Then I realized it all makes sense and is very credible.
The declaration of independence is an amazing document. Educate yourselves!!!
1:05:29 3 Characters per word in Egyptian, per Dr Robert Kriech Ritner.
Channeling a Mormon Apologist: But you don't understand. There are layers to this. The superficial meanings of the hieroglyphs were known and used by the Egyptians for one thing, but for a prophet of God they were imbued with deeper meanings of great complexity, like Chinese characters on steroids, through a process of multi-dimensional quantum entanglement tri-furcated into 5-dimensional taxonomical reference points transsubstantiated into Adamico-linguistic concentrations of meaning entailing energetic emanations generated by hieroglyphic forms, being in the glyphs but not the glyphs, with such emanations becoming intelligible through an energetically catalyzing faith causing an interaction of faith and glyph emanations that untangle the quantum-level encoding. These are things that anti-Mormons will never understand, even though they prove beyond any doubt that the Church is true.
Hey you now that you have left the Church of Jesus Christ, are you attending any church or following any religion?
And you, who also left the church, do you follow any religion or church? What is your faith now?
This was a decent overview of the 8s statements. I felt that the arguments against their testimony werent strong and while the majority of their statements support them actually seeing and handling they conclude at the end it had to be spiritual/visionary
The problem for the official "Testimony" of the 8 (as it appears in the BoM), is that it is exceedingly weak evidence to begin with.
(1) It's a collective statement that was prepared FOR them...not by them.
(2) It was prepared to say what Joseph Smith wanted it to say and only what he wanted it to say, and presented to them for their acceptance AFTER it was prepared.
(3) The content of the statement is so lacking in detail that it actually gives rise to more questions than it answers.
(4) The very minimal content that does exist is simply a rehash of very basic elements of the story about the plates that Joseph had already been telling them.
(5) Since none of the witnesses even participated in preparing the statement, it was not in their own words.
(6) Since it was a joint statement purporting to describe what all of them experienced, without any attempt to present any individual, independent account whatsoever, it represents coordination and orchestration by a single person for that person's benefit (i.e. Joe, as assisted by Ollie).
(7) The statement was prepared according to the instruction of, and to satisfy and benefit, the very person whose credibility was supposed to be bolstered by it. (The equivalent of a defendant in a court case preparing and handing to eight of his best friends a joint statement to be endorsed by them "confirming" that they all saw the defendant at a birthday party across town from where the crime was committed and at the same time that the crime was committed...and then arranging for all eight of them to be unavailable for detailed questioning on an individual basis.)
(8) None of the "Witnesses was a disinterested party and none of them were questioned independently as to details at the time by any disinterested party.
(9) The "ancient artifact" in question was magically made to disappear by a glow-in-the-dark resurrected-man-angel, who supposedly hauled it up to heaven.
As the panel pointed out, this is the kind of evidence that believers such as yourself (presumably) would never take seriously if it was presented by adherents of a competing faith who were attempting to use it to convert you away from your present faith. This is the kind of evidence that would be laughed out of any court. This is the kind of evidence that would not even be regarded as evidence in any context where evidence is important.
Incidentally, I don't think it was even spiritual/visionary (as those terms are commonly understood). At best, it was imaginary...and by a process of rationalization and redefining of language, the "Witlesses" were persuaded to conflate imaginary with visionary with physical reality as though there didn't need to be any distinction when dealing with matters of faith, under the tutelage of the "prophet".
I would say metal clatters or clanks, not rustles
1:25:32 Can gold be shaped into paper? I would say yes; moreover, as a little experiment, I just grabbed a sheet of aluminum foil from my kitchen and tried to inscribe words on it. I was able to inscribe without tearing the foil. However, I then turned the foil over and tried inscribing over and around the words I had just written on the front side; the resulting jumble of characters were so illegible as to be unintelligible. So, if the gold plates really were inscribed front and back, the plates would likely have to have been thick enough that the words wouldn't transfer from front to back, so they likely were not embossed characters, but rather scratched. If scratched then the plates would have needed to be thicker to avoid tearing. Just...every explanation about the gold plates requires so much suspension of disbelief. DOUBT NOT; SUSPEND YOUR DISBELIEF ONLY.
Kolobian magick 🤣🤣🤣
Lol, God needs a copyright!
1:30:00 Nemo & Mike, the import thing is that the people who are cursed brown due to their ancestors which they no longer have DNA from, have the opportunity to become White & Delightsome again, by believing in the dude born of a virgin who walked on water. Amen & Awomen.
Yep!! 😂😂😂 Madness!
Kolobian magick
1:53:21 would the god of Mormonism flex his bank account as evidence of the legitimacy of the CLDS? What about the whole difficulty of rich men getting into heaven?
If god knows the end from the beginning, why didn’t he/she give Joesph Smith a Kindle or tablet instead of the large brick of golden plates, a pair of glasses, a few rocks and a hat to lug around? Maybe it’s just an operating system issue? Could it be that god is an apple user? Or, Maybe Moroni used WordPerfect???? 😅
What if it was painted paper? I'm not sure when gold paint was invented?
Yeah..... 😂😂😂😂😂
Kolobian magick
Also what if he was receiving divine revelation and he lied about everything else to legitimize the message and his experience? Or maybe he just wanted to feel special 😂
1:29:46 you simply can't trust a man to give an accurate measurements of the size and girth!
I feel like John doesn't believe option 2 because he's never been really drunk. At 0.12% BAC you can believe you're seeing all kinds of things.
Tommy Monson dropped off the plates to Joseph Smith as he was on his "errand for the Lord"
LDS episodes are the most valuable of all episodes. For feedback…2 hosts is good. 3 is ok. 4 hosts is too much.
Topics like this are better to stay focused and without a panel full of additional off the cuff commentary.
2:02:34 bc of the happiness letter, we know Joseph coerces believers by threatening them and their families by denying entry into the celestial kingdom. And when he does, he tells those people to burn the evidence.
Affirming that happened here would leave someone no better than apologists with their special pleading and “widening of the target”, but there’s room for doubt that, an intellectually-honest person could not accept, God’s prophet, see’er and revelator, would not create and simply could not possess. Once you’re proven to be a liar, especially for faith promotion, your ability to promote faith disappears like, some might say, the missing half of the Joseph Smith Papyri 🤡.
The fact that the witnesses are two families raises the potential for successful “salvational” blackmail, by painting them into a corner to cooperate to prevent mutual destruction.
Háganlo en español
I ❤ Mark Twain
Hiram Page seer stone... The OG ouija board... obviously 😂
This was a pretty good discussion...but Julia was a out of her depth. I get it: Include a woman; be inclusive...but she didn't add anything of real value....
SPEED TALKING! Take a breath y’all….😮But yes, I believe the witnesses aren’t to be taken seriously.🎉
LMAO!
Christian religion 2.0: one god, eight witnesses, all born in the center of the Universe: the USA and rewritten bible text. Maybe it's time to start a new Christian religion 3.0. Oh shoot, that's already done: Chad Daybell started one.
Religion 4.0 ubermensch walk your own path. You know what is best for you. Other people are just that. No direct line to the Big G for anyone.
Wow Joseph Smith sounds just like Muhammad. Glory to the Triune God Jehovah Christ Jesus. This is why Jesus established The Holy Apostolic Catholic Church 📿🌹🍞🍷💯🙏🏼☦☦☦💪🏼
"..this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and..." D&C 1:30.Revelation given by Jesus christ to joseph smith the prophet in ohio on 1st September 1831.
Joe Smith had a child brides for each day of the week. Several as young as 14 year old children. Nothing you can say can justify that filth
Joe Smith fo-rnic-ated with children
Please get a psychiatrist
@@monyetgoblog7038but not a Mormon psychiatrist 🤣
Lol. I can write my own revelation as well. When people quote the doctrine and covenants...cringe.