Having met Johnny Harris in his younger years, I can't say anything but great things about him. Brilliantly talented guy with a curiosity that is second to none. The fact that he has left the church and that lately he has been open about his reasons to leave isn't at all a reason for me to doubt of his honesty and intent to do what he has concluded to be the right thing for him. I really appreciated his earlier video about his reasons to leave the church, and I took his latest "What Mormons REALLY Believe" as a personal essay supported with sources, but emphasis in "personal" nonetheless. The history of the church as understood today from credible sources provides plenty of transparency to arrive to many of the conclusions he has arrived to. Yet I'm skeptical of anyone, including Johnny, claiming to be the bearer of the "Real" story of anything--and that's where I take issue with the video. Not with the content or even with Johnny's conclusion, only with the portrayal of it in the thumbnail and title as being something like "finally! we finally have the REAL story". We know he doesn't have it. No one really has it. Not even our institutional church fully has it. It is a puzzle that many people across the belief and academic spectrum are trying to put together and therefore is an evolving story. And relying on an evolving story requires a LOT of faith--faith to either believe it, or to disbelieve it. So again, I welcome Johnny's approach to his former faith and his story; I think it is carefully crafted to deliver a tone that is moderate and respectful, and I only wish he (and many others that engage in the online conversation about our faith) were more careful about claiming to be "the" source of truth about this whole thing. Thanks for this reaction video!
Ditto. I also find it really ignorant when people claim they know the “real” story so that means that they need to leave and everybody else who stays doesn’t know the “real” story, and they have their head in the sand. maybe this was more realistic sounding years ago, but having experienced people online constantly talking about their decision to leave, most people are not just gonna sit there and ignore it. They are going to figure out why the heck all these people keep making all these claims and research it themselves. And for some, they will probably come to the same conclusion and leave. But for others, it’s just new information and doesn’t change our faith experiences. And also somewhere in between. But I agree that the story, however its told, is full of faith, so there really is no “real” story. You just have to come to your own conclusion because anytime I hear any “real” story, there’s actually a lot that isn’t explained.
I've done my research. And every time I research something that is said against the church, I go immediately and find out what happened. And every time I do the research , I find it is not at all what was being said. This Harris guy is lost. Can he come back yes, but he is off. He tells 98 percent of the truth , to wether he did it on purpose or not doesn't , matter it matters , that he is not speaking the truth. Wether through omission , or he is seeing it with blinders.
His title was obviously clickbaty. But what he told was actually pretty close to the first lesson the missionaries teach. His video includes stuff that is not included in this reaction like the first vision. I don't think that his intention was to give some alternative, mind-blowing story, he just wanted to give the real story as the church teaches it including all the details we leave out because "babies need milk, not meat" and stuff like that. I think he was still pretty respectful towards the church with his video.
After moving to DC he sold out for the almighty dollar and he admits to the loss of the spirit even though he may not recognize that. If you look carefully you can see the light in him before he left the church and now you can see the light is gone.
I am an ex Baptist now Mormon....i never say anything but great words about how the Baptist faith led me to this church. I love the Baptists (although at times they dont like me lol). If you leave your church, fair enough; I did so. But to then turn to tear it down, not a good game plan.
I don't think that it is his plan to "tear it down", his video would have been different if he tried to do that. I think he is just expressing his opinion. And why shouldn't he do that? It was a very fair video from his side, he didn't bring up any fake news. Everything he says is church doctrine in his video is actually church doctrine. His video was fair.
Well, I grew up between the Assembly of God and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as far as I'm concerned with the Assembly of God their music and worship is awesome but their pastors most of the time were kind of nuts. Always screaming, etc.
They came to America to get away from the Church of England which was a dictator. They came here to worship God in the way that they knew. They didn’t come here to abandon religion
That's a key point of misinformation already which is only going to skew my view further of what he has to say. Many of the founding Fathers were religious or believed in God. They weren't anti-religion, they didn't like state sanctioned religion, thus the 1st amendment.
You're right: the main motivation of the Pilgrim Fathers in setting up the Plymouth Colony was so they could worship as they chose; as far as that goes, the sanitised mythology we were taught in grade school is correct. But the fact is that the Puritans were a bunch of religious fanatics who wanted to create a theocracy based on their narrow understanding of the Bible. Prior to getting on the Mayflower, they lived in The Netherlands where they were free to worship however they chose. But that wasn't good enough for them. In modern terms, they found it constantly triggering to live in a community where they were surrounded by decent people who did not believe as they did, and they were terrified that the general religious tolerance of that country meant that some of their members - particularly their children - might get fed up with their oppressive interpretation of the Bible and move to another church. In short, the true story of the Pilgrims is an ancient one: the men in positions of power in a church found ways of dressing up their moves to maintain and increase that power in holy garb, and they managed to bamboozle most of their gullible flock. (Hmmm... In the context of this video, you mentioning the Pilgrims was actually very appropriate!)
@@XiongGou There is no definite answer to how many attended church in 1790. The 10% claim was first proposed by a couple of historians in the 1990's But, it contradicts 2 things. The number of chappels and cathedrals that were being built during the 18th century increased. And journals and those who were well known "Even today 27% of Americans qualify as regular churchgoers, according to the 2022 General Social Survey." 1. "(Washington) regularly attended services held by military chaplains, and also with local civilian congregations. As president, between 1789 and late 1790, he worshipped at St. Paul's Chapel and at Trinity Church both in Manhattan. 2. Eli Whitney was known to be a religious person and attended church. He was raised in a devoutly religious household and grew up with strong Christian values. Whitney's family belonged to the Congregational Church, and he was raised with a solid foundation of faith. While there isn't an extensive amount of information available about his personal religious practices, it's widely acknowledged that he had a connection to the church and its teachings. 3. Alexander Hamilton was also known to have attended church. He was raised as a Presbyterian and had a strong religious upbringing. Throughout his life, he attended various churches in different locations where he lived, including Trinity Church in New York City. Hamilton's religious beliefs played a significant role in his life, and he often expressed moral and ethical viewpoints that were influenced by his Christian background. 4. Throughout his life, Jefferson did attend church services at times, but his attendance was irregular and often for political or social reasons rather than strictly for religious devotion. He occasionally attended Anglican (Episcopal) services, especially during his time in Virginia. However, there are accounts that suggest he may have felt uncomfortable with some of the religious aspects of these services. 5. Thomas Paine was known for his skeptical and critical views on organized religion. 6. John Adams did attend church and was a religious person. He was a Congregationalist in terms of his religious affiliation. Adams was raised in a devoutly religious family, and his Christian faith played a significant role in his life and values. Throughout his life, he maintained a connection to his religious beliefs and attended church services. 7. Benjamin Franklin's relationship with religion was nuanced. While he attended church services at times and believed in a higher power, There, that's 4 out of 7. That's almost 60%.
Ah yes the puritans. They were cruel to anyone who disagreed with them. Alongside the Roman Catholics, the Church of England was just politically involved in everything. Tsk Tsk Tsk. No wonder Jesus said no church that existed were true.
Actually, you're incorrect and he is in the right, though I don't think you understand what his point is. I think Johnny simply phrased it in a way that made it seem like everyone was an atheist or something. Pretty much every christian religion in America is derived from Protestantism. They were literally protesting mainstream christianity in their day and age and wanted to be able to break free and do it in their own way, with their own ideas, free from the dictations of overlording authority figures. This is why hundreds of christian faiths were created during the time of JS. That's literally what Protestantism is about. Most people in America at the time of JS believed in God but a huge chunk of people were not actually church goers, or they were constantly shifting from religion to religion.
I have a question for Mormons, if a man in a similar stature to Joseph Smith were to announce today that he found the plates after the angel Moroni spoke to him to transcribe more of the book of Mormon, would yall believe him and he become your new prophet?
@@JonathanHamilton-t9d thanks for the answer, I didn't mean it disrespectfully either. Genuinely just wanted to know. I used to be religious (Christianity) and walked away from it to embrace Deism.
No. Only the prophet/president of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints holds the priesthood keys to receive revelation for the whole earth. So a random dude claiming to be a prophet because Moroni appeared to him would make zero sense. The Lords church is a house of order (D&C 132:8) and He will not lead His people astray like that. If the Lord wants to bring forth more scripture for us, He will do it through the prophet (Amos 3:7). Also, you can pray to receive your own personal revelation to know through the Holy Ghost what is true (Moroni 10:5)
@@christopherpeery7436 On this point, the reason Latter-day Saints believe Joseph Smith is different than any other farmboy is that he had the authority to be a prophet, but others wouldn't. This isn't an arbitrary assignment but is rather one based on scriptural prophecy and which is compatible with LDS theology. We believe Priesthood power and authority was missing on earth in Joseph's time, hence the need for a restoration and a new prophet. And we just don't have that need anymore. Also, because it wasn't just a restoration of ideas, but of literal authority from Christ, we wouldn't accept any new prophets or any new world-wide revelations as authoritative. Thanks for the question!
Johnny raises the point that some members 'ignore' inconvenient details about church history, and I think there may be some truth to that. I think Johnny and a lot of other ex-members grew up in a time and a culture where some members did obfuscate the touchier subjects in the church's history in an attempt to protect people's testimonies. These members saw the value in the church and its teachings, and believed the best approach to tricky subjects was to not give them any sunlight, or even in some cases shun their discussion in order to not harm their children's growing testimony (after all, details about Joseph's life have little impact on our eternal salvation). Although this may have been done with good intentions, the result was a lot of people grew up without the reasoning ability or information to navigate these nuances, and basically believed the church was perfect in all its facets... so once they finally heard these details about the church from a website or some evangelical, their whole world view was shattered. Saints Unscripted is a real gift for helping people understand the nuances and difficulties behind imperfect people building God's church. Hope to see more people take up this endeavor
I agree. I think this is why I’ve never been angry when I learn something new. I can see that testimonies are so valuable to people, so I really don’t think those people meant any harm but I am seeing a lot of value in just talking about it more. I think a lot more people would be gone if we didn’t talk about it.
As a former Mormon this is the first time I have ever heard that the witnesses actually saw the gold plates. I was always taught they were covered and they saw them through their spiritual eyes. And all of the witnesses were either related to Joseph Smith or a friend and his relatives. I have a hard time believing that if they actually saw the gold plates and handled them that they would leave the church just because of disagreements with Joseph Smith. If he really had these experiences and really had gold plates they would have been a defender of Joseph Smith till death as you are. They may not have denied their testimony so they wouldn't look like they had been duped --pride. I don't get why it's a big deal when people leave the church. As a believer and follower of Jesus I don't feel a need for church. I only need a relationship with God through Jesus. He is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. But for those that do need a church I say go, serve, participate in any church of your choosing but don't look down on anyone or criticize others beliefs. God Loves All His Creation. He Is LOVE.❤ Jesus came and showed that Love.❤ I do see lots of people making money on RUclips using religion and that's fine also if everyone will accept everyone and do it lovingly. I have noticed since Hello Saints started his channel people have been getting less critical and nicer. 👍 to Pastor Jeff. ❤
The saints in MO issued an extermination statement against Missourians LONG before Gov. Boggs issued his inhumane and inexcusable order. That said the people in MO did try to find ways to work with the saints there it is just too bad we as a people weren't willing to work harder to get along. We have a very severe persecution complex that exists to this day. Before you reply back telling me that I am a vile anti-mormon please read both volumes of Saints. That is where I got many of my facts from regarding our treatment in MO.
@@tykempton8562 The saints in Missouri were not perfect, but their treatment at the hands of the local population and the state itself was absolutely unjustified. I don't know how you get this both siderism nonsense from reading Saints.
@@tykempton8562The people were more worried that the increasing numbers of antislavery supporters would cause Missouri to become a Free State. But they got paid back, for Missouri suffered the greatest loss of life during the Civil War, especially Northern Missouri.
I'm a member of Tue Church Of Jesus Christ LDS. I have respect for everyone & their Religious beliefs & Faith💙🙏💙 The call to Allah is absolutely beautiful! Blessings to all.
I loved the simplicity in complexity. It actually defines any meaningful you are involved in. Think of anyone that is special in your life. Think of all the times you might have been frustrated or angered by that person. Think of all of the things you didn't know about them at first and the struggles you had when you came to knowing them. Any marriage, parent, sibling, friend relationship goes through this simplicity in complexity paradox. The most meaningful relationships are typically ones that survive the complexity. That is why I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and why I love Jesus.
nobody I know married teenagers, sent men on missions and then married their wives, claim that some skeletal remains were those of a white lamanite named zelph, claim to translate egyptian papyrus into abrahamic writings.
@@Goobersnobber47 Yeah you must be living under a rock cause I know people who did far "weirder or worse" things than all of those. I know people that have murdered their children in their wombs, after having plenty of premarital sex consensual and nonconsensual to get them. I know people that have cheated on their spouses with pornography and with their babysitters. I know people that have relatives and ancestors that killed other people because of the color of their skin or the hat on their head. I know people who used the Bible and make changes and translations therein to weaponize and monetize Christ to get people to do what they want and build Churches through their priestcraft. I know people that believe stoning women and children for not obeying supposed religious law is alright. I know people who believe in prearranged marriages to teenagers. I know of cultures where the cheif sleeps with the bride before she weds. And this is just the people that I know. If I were to read the Bible, I would find prophets and kings that have done even 'weirder and worse' things too. Like Joseph a almost 40 year old marrying a impregnated 12 year old Mary and birthing Jesus. Like David who sent a man to his death to marry His wife who became the Great Great Great etc grandmother of Jesus. Like Abraham who just abandon his other wife in the desert. Like Moses who built a pagan idol serpant that would magically heal those who looked at it or worshipped it. All of these people that you are mentioning are probably people alive that you know too. If you are so self-righteous and can't associate with anyone that has done weird or worse things than Joseph, you must be a very lonely man who does nothing but share how he is the only righteous person in the world and that he doesn't hang around sinners. The fact is we love sinners being one of them ourselves. We have a Church that is designed to heal this wicked world through Restoration. Not all of us members are perfect and we make mistakes, but that is why we desperately need a Savior to make it possible to get better. I believe His Church was made for this purpose. We as a whole can say that we are much stronger than we were 200 years ago partly because of weird and worse things that Jesus restored. The fruits of this Church are a much better option than what the world has to offer. The moment you see how awful the world is compared to the weird things someone did 200 or 2000 years ago, you might care about swallowing your pride, getting out of your rock and actually learning what this Church really is.
The issue though is you do not know Jesus. You know a false Christ. Not the true Jesus of the Bible. You’ve received a false spirit. Joseph smith was deceived by the same demon that Muhammad was deceived by. The same demonic spirit appeared to both of them and deceived them both. The parallels between LDS and Islam and other cults are all right there if you’re honest enough to look at them.
@@TaskForceB I think that's the point. History of something like the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Christianity itself is going to be told by people with extreme biases on the one side or the other. Imagine telling the history of the original Christian church - the whole thing started with a bunch of people who thought Jesus was risen from the dead and now sits on the right hand of God. I'd imagine people saying 'well, where is he then?'.
@@andrewolsen2711what’s great about this channel is that it dives into the mistakes made by church leaders, exploring all documents rather than a select few
I’ve recently stepped away from being LDS, I suppose I’m in the complexity phase unsure what’s next! I watched this original as well. I appreciate how level headed your response is and of course some bias is there with both parties but I always enjoy seeing both points of view! You’re definitely the best host of the Saints Unscripted to watch! Thank you!
Step into the light and truth found in God's proven Word, the Bible, especially the Book of Galatians and Ephesians. As the whole New Testament will help you become free from sin and have certainty of a true relationship with God and find true peace and hope.
Thank you! It drove me crazy that he left out the witnesses. It feels like he should have known that and maybe left it out because its a stronger point?
In his short video about our history he finds it fitting to mention Kolob and Joseph marrying a teenageer, but not that there are witnesses to the Book of Mormon and he doesn't think this is a biased representation?
Agree, many sources (family of Joseph smith) shared they read the Bible as a family and all but father attended local congregations including a 14 year old having a soul search towards a religion. Is that not young enough to be “religious”?
"Religious" is often used to describe a degree of religiosity--which would include a wide variety of regular practices. It's vague. But, I think, in this context, it just means he's not regularly attending a church. What little learning Joseph had, though, was probably learning to read from the Bible, which was very widespread practice at the time.
One interesting thing about sealings in general (not just marriage) is that originally the idea seemed to be that you would seal everyone to the prophets and apostles whether as children or wives or parents or what have you. The idea was that the sealings are only effective if the participants remain faithful and since many peoples family members had rejected the gospel (like nonmember parents) then they need to be sealed to those who were faithful or more likely to be at least. So even after Joseph and some other apostles had passed if your parents weren’t members or if a woman wasn’t married to a member they would be sealed to Joseph or brigham or someone else who was faithful their whole lives. It wasn’t till Wilford Woodruff had a revelation in the St George temple that they corrected the practice and everyone strictly had their families sealed as they are here on Earth. Doctrine is revealed line up one line. Not every aspect of things was revealed all at once or by one prophet so people tend to imperfectly try to fill in the gaps based on what they do know. All that to say that sealings were understood differently for the first 70 years or so of the church.
@@ruslannykyforov5740 they just didn’t understand yet. revelation is line upon line. the one to Wilford woodruff was almost that blunt though haha. It went more like Wilford- “god should we be doing it this way?” Holy Spirit- “do they have parents?” Wilford- “yes” Holy Spirit- “ then you should honor them.”
@@ruslannykyforov5740 The gospel of Jesus Christ is STILL being restored to this day. Believing that all would be revealed immediately is just plain nonsense. This is why Prophets are called of God to continue to restore His gospel. Otherwise, why would there be a need for a Prophet after Moses since God had revealed the 10 commandments already. Mosaic law was continually changed and updated as Hod saw the need to do so. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
@@brianc.1149 You make a lot of claims. Maybe you could provide a demonstration and evidence for each one that a person could examine and determine if your claims are in fact true.
Let's just start with animal sacrifice. The firstlings of a flock are no longer taken to Jewish temples to be sacrificed for the forgiveness of sin. There were 48 Prophets and 7 Prophetesses in the Old Testament, yet a God who claims to be the same yesterday, today and forever doesn't have a Prophet among the Jews? In the past few years, gospel changes have been made by Jesus Christ through his living Prophets. While DOCTRINE hasn't been changed, they way we worship has.
The problem with his story is that he takes truths and twists and turns them to fit his narrative. The first point begins in the beginning. Joseph Smith was a storyteller. Everyone was a storyteller at this time period. They had no radio, no TV, and newspapers are limited. Indian culture is full of storytellers. Some cultures still have storytelling as a center of their existence.
@@gordianknot9595 Baloney. He did not. Only in your anti-view. And btw, I see you're back! Couldn't resist, could ya' - Trolling around on here again on this faith channel, trying to convince the ignorant the Church isn't true - good luck. I'm surprised Saints Unscripted hasn't thrown you off -
@@gordianknot9595 right you know everything from all the puzzle pieces we don’t have and use the changed history to tape the puzzle together into a puzzle monster. Makes me wonder what you think of the anachronisms in Paul’s accounts found in the Bible.
I left the church when I was 16 and I tried many other religions and churches. I came back to the church at 45 because none of those others could explain parts of the Bible to me. I have also heard the spirit of God tell me directly it’s true. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Johnny.
he's probably turned to atheism, that's what happens to most of these guys. If they have a modicum of consistency they have to apply the same critical standard to all religions that they applied to the LDS Church, especially just general Christianity. Once they do, they have no where left to go but atheism. Many try agnosticism for a while, but soon realize that's just a cop out. Unfortunately, if they are intellectually honest, eventually they realize that atheism/materialism is in fact just another human created religion, doesn't provide satisfactory answers to life's existential questions and cannot sustain the soul through life's inevitable let downs, betrayals and extreme hardships. Usually then they either finally break down and call out for God when their lives experience these extreme hardships (all lives do at some point) or they double down in their anger and vitriol and die miserable and alone in their perpetual hatred. I pray regularly that those who have fallen away eventually have experiences that humble them and nudge them back to the Lord.
@@techateachaThat’s your opinion. What makes a true Christian? Why are you the authority or judge of whether those who love Jesus and truly believe in Him, believe He is the Savior, and serve Him are Christians?? “By their fruits, ye shall know them.”
I was wondering if he would get into that. I've been on the fence several times after growing up in the church, but I haven't found a better answer yet other than to believe in nothing but science.
@@deboraholsen2504 not judging the Mormon believers. It’s the heretical teachings and beliefs. Seriously, why do you all need to have a Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith to learn how to believe, love and serve Jesus? Isn’t the Bible sufficient? Sola Scriptura, 2 Timothy 3:15-17.
Oh, it's that guy. The guy that left the church and, at the time, claimed to have no hard feelings, and he was all good. Brigham Young was right, they leave the church, but can't leave the church alone!
He spent years of his life, and probably many thousands of dollars to the church- how could anyone leave the church and just walk away without strong emotions after so many years of investment? It’s pretty unselfaware when I see members of the church make this argument.
It's a two way street. Depending on the family is someone chooses to leave the church they'll have family pressure them to come back. Lots of members who leave would not want to justify their position, but when prodded they feel they have no choice but to have to explain why. Inversely, when my dad investigated the church, he wanted to leave the methodist church in peace but his family pressured him to come back. He didn't want to stir the pot, but because of their consistent efforts he felt the need to bear his testimony. I think if both parties were respectful of one another's beliefs, these videos or ex-mormon content wouldn't exist
@katieedwards6444 That's fair, I can see that point of view, if someone resents paying tithing for example. But it sounds like he came out earlier saying he left with no hard feelings.
2:04 an objective historical lens doesn't exist. I like how the leading danish science website videnskab dk discussed with experts about objectivity in history, and they said (paraphrasing): History is like a court case. Your role is, just like a lawyer, to give the most convincing, and sometimes even the most appealing, arguments. The theory that wins the most people over gets in the history books.
The history itself isn't objective, but the people who make history their life goals, historians, typically ARE objective when averaged out across the industry. While one may say "this never happened", others may prove "this DID happen, here's the evidence, and your bias is that it makes your family lineage look bad". In that case, others in the field look at the reports, compare against their own evidences, and then, collectively, irons out the bumps of history over time. History is "objective" because the people that dedicate their lives to it have an incentive to NOT be biased, while the industry itself is set up in a way to not have blind faith in any one side. Your historical take is ALWAYS just as likely to be ridiculed as a Christians version of history... and THAT is attempted objectivity. Think of the Egyptian pyramids... for the longest time we claimed it was built ENTIRELY by slaves until Egyptian historians with a bias proved it was not. Of course it went through the wringer of critique before it was finally settled, among the historian community, that they were not, in fact, ONLY built by slaves. This is unlike religious history which includes a lot of blind faith and almost a detestment of any sort of critique or review from other experts. It's a system designed to prevent further developments of historical claims... it just is what they say it is.
even tho i never had a faith crisis, this channel has helped me know the history of the church in a way that i would not know how to learn it or even have time for it. This channel is amazing, thank you saints unscripted, you guys are amazing!
I testify that plain and precious things were taken out, and what were they? None other than the doctrine of Christ. In John 1:25, what did the pharisees ask him? They asked “Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?” Why do you think this is important? Conventional christianity would have you believe that the doctrine of Christ came about during the time of Christ. Tell me where is there evidence of this doctrine in the Old Testament? And if not found, why then did these Pharisees essentially ask “who gave you authority?” instead of asking “ what are you doing?” If the doctrine of Christ was never taught to ancient Israel, why was Jesus or any of his apostles never challenged by what they were doing in the sense of knowing where they were getting these teachings from? Paul, being born a Pharisee himself never had a problem teaching Christ to the early Christians who were Jew, why? Because they knew. And the Book of Mormon is evidence of that. That's why Nephi spoke about it with boldness. The book of Mormon is true, I testify that it is. @@brettpinion4233
Your church literally banned black people from priesthood for over 100 years + the second leader of your church made Utah the only slave territory in the west + you guys literally believe native Americans descend from israelites + you guys believe that white skinned Israelites formed the original people of Moroni + Joseph Smith held multiple wives + Joseph Smith got his golden tables in a Language that doesn’t exist + the LDS church acts like many mega churches owning land, hotels, genealogy websites and etc.
I've watched several of Johnny's videos, on occasion. Usually it's his videos about public policy and politics that catch my eye. Very smart guy. I don't always agree with him, but he gives me much to think about, and I appreciate it. Johnny did a video about why he left the Church before he did the video that was reviewed here, but it seemed sort of vague to me about exactly why he left. He mentioned that he had some psychological issues, particularly on his mission, and his description sounded a lot like a condition called religious scrupulosity. As I have had a similar experience with the Church, but thankfully found help THROUGH the Church rather than leaving it, I can definitely attest to the fact that he's probably had a very hard faith path to walk.
Yeah, I had something similar, but it was called religious trauma to me by my therapist. My therapist was agnostic, and I was able to get through all my issues without leaving the church. It can get very complicated when personal experiences compound on our beliefs which compounds on our knowledge and understanding of something like this.
@@starzilla2975you’re very faithful and brave to not leave! I totally understand why some leave the church, but so many think that we endorse things like SA, amongst other things. I read a comment that got hundreds of likes where someone said that our church supports it. That’s not only so far from the truth, but tries to link the few horribly bad apples with the good fruit. It’s a bandwagon so many hop on, defend, and die on. It’s sad and attempts to disgrace in a way the so many wonderful and faithful members. I’ve had an undeniable witness from the Spirit that this is the restored gospel and the fact that people claim to say they had a witness that this isn’t the true church, I would be very careful in how you discerned that as Satan comes as an angel of light. I know my experience was not from the “angel of light” but was truly from the Spirit.
If I were you I would ignore the bishop's advice not to read "anti-mormon" literature or articles! There is some of that, but there is an awful lot of truth out there too! If you study everything in the church history and can reconcile that with everything you've been told, that should lead you to the reality of the truth. I don't believe most members really know enough about the real beliefs of the church to make an honest belief in all of it. Don't be duped! Look deeply into what they believe before you committ your life and your family's life to it!
@@deborahyoung7941 honestly yes. But also, the most important thing is a witness from God whether it is true or not and I received a witness at a time when I was highly mentally unstable and about to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital. When I had the witness from the Spirit (while a friend was reading a book titled ‘The Heavens Are Open’ by Wendy M. Nelson), I literally thought I was condemned to Hell because I was in an ultra delusional state. It took me months before I realized that that was God giving me a witness from the Spirit about the restored gospel. More than anything though, I’m a follower of Christ. I’m not just a 100% listening to church content-no. I go through a lot of content on YT and IG (and some TikTok) from Christian content creators and I have learned a huge wealth of knowledge. Demons aren’t really talked about in the LDS church and I really really wish they were because they are constantly trying to find ways to tempt and open doors to ultimately attempt to steal, kill, and destroy us, like what almost happened to me with an eating disorder and almost dying. I’m so freaking glad that I didn’t die and that I pushed through the physical and mental disability I experienced from it for months and came out conqueror. I can’t thank God enough for giving me another chance to redeem myself, commit myself 100000% to Him each and every day and to better following the callings he’s personally been giving me through personal revelation. Thank you Jesus 😭❤️🔥
@@deborahyoung7941I find it odd when people say that members of a church don’t really know what they believe. I agree that not everyone can act as spokesman for a church. But a member is THE expert on what they believe. I can only tell you what I believe, and you won’t get a better representation then from me. I don’t pretend to know everything about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but as a member of the church I can tell you, I believe in a living passionate God. I know Jesus is my Savior, I know the Bible is the word of God and related humanities relationship with God, and the Book of Mormon is its companion in testifying of the mission of Jesus Christ. I know that we can only act in Gods authority with His permission, and that we MUST follow the path Jesus laid out for us. I know God is a God of miracles, and grants the sincere searcher with revelation, and gifts to bless others.
Josiah Stoal hired Joseph to dig for treasure and finally, Joseph convinced Mr. Stoal to give it up. That is all the treasure-seeking Joseph did and he vehemently reacted to that charge.
@@dr33776 You should read more than what the anti-Mormon and anti-Joseph crowd wrote. Read the responses of Oliver and Joseph to such charges. If you can't find it, read Jonathan Neville's works-- he has done more research on primary sources than all others combined.
@@dr33776 Even if Joseph did treasure seeking that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. Recently, in Utah, there was a treasure hunt and someone found the 25,000 dollar price. People still use metal detectors today to search for treasure. Kids do geocaching. In Alaska, people still hunt for gold. It is all about how your frame it. The Gold Rush lead many people out west and up North, so Joseph participating in some treasure hunting isn't a deal breaker.
@@dr33776 JS married women, including some who were married to living men, in secret and attacked anyone who called him on it. I don't know why LDS find him to be such a trustworthy source when it comes to his own past.
@dr33776 also should be noted that originally it was the idea of other treasure seekers that took him as a companion that had heard of his accounts of theophany. He needed quick money to rescue his family from a financial disaster they were in.
A great response video that should be mandatory viewing along side Johnny’s explanation of our history. I wouldn’t say all of what he said is what we “actually” believe or I would share his biased opinions. I see all the same history and “actually” believe it differently than he does and there are huge reasons for that. It would be interesting for him to include why people believe differently than he does beyond Joseph Smith being charismatic, and creating something that sounds appealing and as his says “magical.” It goes way beyond that. Many of us for instance have tested God’s word found in these scriptures and found them to be absolutely true to their word and promises. Many of us for instance have seen and experienced the priesthood in action just like people did in the New Testament. Many of us know we don’t have to take Joseph’s word or story at face value and can receive our own divine witness of the restoration etc. The list goes on. I personally see the simplicity beyond the complexity because I know the history of Christ’s church and followers have human flaws. It’s always been that way, as shown throughout the Old and New Testament, so when I here about a church leader or historical figure making a mistake, Christ’s church isn’t a glass house that shatters when a stone is tossed at it. Anyway, this video shouldn’t be called what “Mormon’s Actually Believe” rather “What I (Johnny) Actually Believe Based on My Biased Interpretation and Conclusions” which are not the same conclusions of believing members who look at the same material, without the reductions and facts left out of this version of our story. Anyway, thank you for all the people behind SU. This is a fair and well presented response :)
A mandatory suggestion for anyone who wants to understand all sides of a story. In all intellectual pursuits, evidence is something that needs to be considered collectively. If people like their info lopsided they of course have the agency to accept it as so. If you don’t wish the suggestion, no one can force you to do anything. Change the channel.
Well done! Also, it's misleading when he says Joseph kept it a secret until 1823. He told his father the next day, and soon after, he also shared it with a Methodist preacher who consequently treated him with "great contempt". So by 1823, essentially everyone knew by word of mouth and rumor that Joseph had seen a vision. (my widows mite haha)
That's not true, he told people about the plates but he didn't mention the first vision before he wrote it down in 1832. Isn't it curious that no one (not even his family or anti mormons) knew about the first vision until many years after it allegedly happened?
@@dr33776 Thank you, it’s not explicit that he told his Father (that was about the plates in 1823), but according to his account, it's pretty clear that he didn't wait until 1823 or 1832, and was open about it. And the chance that he didn’t tell those closest to him would be very unlikely: JS_H 1:21 “Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers...and...took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had...” JS_H 1:22 “I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution…” So yes, if that false claim was true, it would indeed be suspicious, hence why Johnny said it.
@jaredjensen3937 I mean, if you take as gospel his 1838 account, there's nothing that can dissuade you to consider that he retrofitted and exaggerated his visions as he saw fit. There are clear contradictions between his 1832 account and later versions of the first vision. Why would you give more weight to a late account than the first and only one written by his own hand? If he told the methodist preacher about it and suffered persecution, why was everyone unaware of the first vision? The first "anti mormon" book mormonism unvailed goes hard after the smiths, talking about seer stones, trasure digging, being lazy, drunks, cheaters, etc. yet not a single mention of the first vision. Not a single mention of a vision by Alexander Campbell. The unedited lucy mack smith biography does not mention a first vision. There was no religious excitement in palmyra in 1820. His family joined the Presbyterian church AFTER Alvin dies, so that messes the chronology as the revival would've taken place in 1824, when he was 18 and after moroni allegedly visited him in September 1823.
@@dr33776 wait, you’re assuming since the chronological ordering doesn’t add up that this makes everything invalid??? I know in your mind you think that makes this whole story false, but I’m a little shocked this would be the basis of your doubts. The idea that everything should have been documented from day one, in the meantime, the smith family had no idea what the outcome would be for many years after, makes a ton more sense why things weren’t well documented back then. If it was, I’d probably have way more doubts. That would seem way more suspicious…
Quite frankly I do think that learning the gospel would probably be hard for me to believe if someone just explained it to me, but that’s not why I started going to church. I was going through a hard time and I was confused. I prayed and received an answer for myself. I started going to church and I’ve never felt a joy inside like I do now. People can say anything they want to me about what to believe, but that experience has changed me ❤ D&C 9:8-9
My brain is programmed for many things. Staying in the church is not one of them. It’s the thing that most helps me break undesirable programming. People act like we’re trapped in this cult, as if the gospel doesn’t grant some of the best tools for gaining the sort of freedom I’d consider worth having. And it’s not some kind of blissful ignorance.
It can be counterintuitive but I need outside sources (not just myself) to judge me. Otherwise I don't feel progress and a way to become better. Freedom is progress, not following my own impulses and desires all the time. One thing good about the church as it provides me opportunity to socialize and interact with those outside of my circles, my economic status, even my ethnicity and culture. I've never found anything better.
@@racealexander1660then try leaving. Have your mother burst into tears because you’re not wearing your garments. Lose a large sense of community because you’ve only ever made friends at church. Feel the guilt of disappointing your friends because they respect you and your opinion but must revere the church’s authority above all else. Be the sort of person they tip toe around because they’ve been taught to distrust people who leave for being “unfaithful” or “selfish” when so many of us leave because the truth may be hard, but it is the truth. You’re not trapped in the sense of chains. You’re trapped by the familial, social, and often mental cost of leaving. And you’ve often had a lifetime of lessons and talks and small social triggers programming you that leaning will cost you everything - even your very family and soul. But being free is better.
@@brooklynparkse those are good points but also true of any very tightknit group. Not exclusive to our church. I come from a large, close family. My brother left a few years ago with his family. He gets treated the exact same as he did before. Granted, he doesn't try to tell us how smart and free he is and how blind we are to the 'real' truth. We just go about our lives, same as before. He comes to family church events when he can, etc. Same with my aunt and her family who left 30 years ago. She's one of my favorite people on the planet. You also have to consider a different reality. Did you grow up in the church? And have left as an adult? I think you underestimate the blessings you (or others) received by living the gospel for the first 20-40 years of your life. You get taught all the morals, probably avoid addictions, learn hard work and self reliance, have a great friend and family network, the list goes on. And then when you don't believe it or need it anymore, you bow out. Have you ever watched the come back podcast? There are a ton of people who left and got in really dark places by not living gospel principles. And their families in many cases were still there for them. And they were able to pull out with the help of the atonement. Anyway, i really don't believe there's any freedom in leaving the commandments. It can seem that way at first. But very rarely are people's lives better in the long term after they leave. True freedom is found in living God's will. After all, he knows the best life we can have. That's all he wants for his children.
My question is always: if it was all fake, what was Joseph’s motivation?! What did he get from it all? It sounds like Johnny implied he was after power or fame or multiple wives, but looking closer at his actual day to day life- I think there are few if any who’d want to walk in his shoes. It was HARD. There were trials and challenges galore. He was never rich, or “popular” among the general public (quite the opposite), spent time in prison and was killed at a young age. What did he have to gain from it all if it was some complex fraud?! I just don’t see it. He persisted and endured despite trials that would have sent many of us packing.
I agree with you on this and then to put his family through all these hardships. One could say he was a narcissist, but historical records don't seem to point in this direction.
Why would someone want multiple wives anyways? I mean, isn't it better just to sleep with multiple women, leave and not make any commitments to them. Isn't that what so many 'rich' people are doing today?
Possible explanation: Generally, people who are slaves to sin don't benefit from their sin like they expected to. Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin all pursued power which ultimately led to absolutely miserable endings (and lives. Hitler was a mess towards the end, and Stalin lived in constant paranoia). Pursuing power and riches is poisonous, but most men pursue it anyway. Joseph Smith was at least positioned to be the one who had power, if it worked out. So, it can at least be a reasonable explanation.
@@juliahansen3773 The difference is those men considered themselves God and sinned by trying to throw the real God out of the equation altogether. They all failed miserably. Joseph Smith at his dying breath recognized God as his only hope. Because of that difference alone, Joseph Smiths succeeded while the others legacies died off completely. By their fruits ye shall know them. Jesus was also positioned with power and in his dying breath commended his life to God. His legacy continues today. So your explanation doesn't work. Whatever Joseph Smith wanted to happen in the world is still living today. And the world is less sinful because of it.
Muhammad also has had a lasting impact, and many Muslims will die for their belief. Neither of these two things is strong evidence that JS wasn't a false prophet. As far as a less sinful world, that has been going on steadily since Christ's resurrection, and can absolutely not be attributed to Joseph Smith and Latter Day Saints. Human rights, hospitals, taking care of orphans, charities etc...all greatly predate Joseph Smith (and were started by Christians throughout history). In fact, there were definitely some very QUESTIONABLE doctrines of Joseph Smith that the Latter Day Saints have abandoned - that's a big sign of bad fruit!
Ah, the Mormon Church has no way to authenticate its history expect internally within the church itself. It makes the claim to restore the lost gospel when the gospel was never lost but has always been clearly proclaimed in the only Word of God, the Bible, not the Book of Mormon which in reality was nothing more but a book that heavily steals from the Old Testament.
I LOVE Saints Unscripted! 🔥 Thank you for all your awesome fair, informative content! I love how you don’t get nasty or angry towards the anti-folks. You rock! ☀️💕
I am so grateful you did this video. I saw that he posted this video, and I saw his original video. I have been studying church history for 15 years now, and it's incredibly frustrating to me to hear him misrepresent the gospel and its history. I feel more at peace hearing you along for the ride, because I was interested in what he had to say, but it makes it bearable with your meek, logical and humble commentary.
“We believe in the in the Bible to be the word of God so long as it is translated correctly.” The Old Testament is one of our standard works. I don’t see the jump in logic that finding the dead scrolls equals that the Old Testament is *perfectly* translated or that it would discount the validity of the Book of Mormon. In fact, there are variabilities within the Dead Sea scrolls that don’t perfectly match the Bible and some groups believe this disproves all of Christianity “lore”. The Book of Mormon would not exist without the Old Testament and both are cherished in the gospel. But again, logic alone is not enough to establish a relationship with Christ and understand his doctrine seeing as there is much controversy surrounding the Dead Sea scrolls as well.
Im sorry, where exactly did he misrepresent the gospel or history? I also am an armchair historian of Mormon history and while I did get hung up in one or two places, he’s generally correct from my research.
His video was more than fair towards the lds faith. If anything he was holding way back. That was a very kind video from someone who respects his family and loved ones who still belong to the church. Because the lds church has an endless supply of dirty laundry, he could have chose to air out in this video if he was trying to make the church look bad.
@@memahselfni So, I'm actually not the only one who has a problem with the way Johnny Harris explains history on his youtube channel. You can look up people critiquing his videos claiming he likes to rewrite world history. He says things that with even just a little more nuance make his conclusions deceptive. Like in this one, "America wasn't super religious," that's not true. They were extremely religious, but didn't necessarily have a chapel to attend due to cities being very underdeveloped. He mentions polygamy in ugly terms but doesn't mention any of the context behind it, or question why Joseph Smith, the supposed pedophilic sex addict who was vying for power and married other people's wives didn't have a single child with anyone else. The whole point of polygamy is to garner power in the community through children because it inexplicably ties people to him so that they can't escape. Especially if he shared children with other leaders wives... but he doesn't... and it's super weird. He's either cosmically lucky or... infertile, and he wasn't infertile. All you have to do is look at other examples of major polygamists to see the vast difference in behavior between them and Joseph Smith. Anyways, Harris is very moderate in his approach which makes him look like a proper authority source while he cherry picks the narrative and this isn't the only video he's done that with.
@@brettpinion4233 Yes, we worship a living Jesus who continues to speak to us through chosen authority. I believe Christ continues revelation to his children. If Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever, then he would sent a prophet... like he's *always *done. He continue commanding prophets to write down scripture, as he's *always* done. Every generation scorns the idea of a prophet. Even Jerusalem thought they were "too modern" to have a prophet. Do you believe in the same Jesus who commanded and gave authority to specific men to write down his doctrine to preach the gospel? If you do, then we believe in the same Christ, if not, then Bernard P. Brockbank was correct. When I read Mathew 7:15, and it says to beware of false prophets, I think of thousands of christian denomination pastors claiming they have the truth, and that other christian sects are wrong. They are "wolves" in sheep's clothing because they feign not being prophets but they act like they are, claiming their christian theology is superior to others... like the catholics, the mennonites, the protestants, the evangelicals all have their little prophets. My prophet claims authority, he is the head of an extremely organized church with solid doctrine, and has even provided more scripture of *other* prophets. And that scripture you said was blasphemous, that scripture feels not only clearer, but more truthful to me. Joseph didn't sell a lie. Christ commanded it. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Was christ mistaken? Do you know what perfection means? If a person was perfect... what would that do to them? Joseph said perfection means godliness so, unless you have a different definition, that one seems legit.
How ironic I'm listening to this a second time how ironic that Johnny says Joseph Smith found audience in doing so... From what I can see, Johnny has found audience in doing so.
...He found his audience while working at VOX where he wasn't really allowed to speak on his beliefs. He posted that kind of content on HIS channel. Then, of course, he left VOX and started his own youtuber journalism channel which is when it began popping off. He isn't famous because he used to be in the church, that's just a quirky fact about him. He's famous because he does deep dives into global political conflict, completely removed of any sort of religious bias. In fact, when he posted that video his most popular videos were about mcdonalds ice cream machines, why people think the world is flat, and the man putin fears the most, with 7.3, 4.7, and 3.9 million views respectively. He also had almost 1.5 million subs too.. Point is, you'd either have to be stupid or be arguing in bad faith to say he got his fame from abandoning the church.
Great reaction video David! I agree with your summary of Johnny’s video. Great production value, clearly biased from his opinion on the church. Johnny has a habit of claiming objective perspective in his videos, but this one is especially easy to see that it’s not objective at all.
The Bible is like Santa Clause You have a lot of evidence supporting it 1 my mom and dad say it’s true (they would never lie) 2 I had a wish list and Santa 🎅 gave me everything 3 I wrote a letter to Santa and he wrote back 4 I sat on Santa’s lap 5 I left a cookie and he ate it 6. Tons of Christmas songs about Santa, everyone knows it’s true The Book of Mormon is like the Easter Bunny 🐰 1 A man’s claim The Bible has something called MAPS Manuscripts Archeological evidence (and real cities) Prophecies Scientific Data I am lds by the way, but the Bible takes almost no faith to believe, while the Book of Mormon definitely does
Not really, the Bible keeps being vindicated by history and archaeology. Aside from this we believe in Our Lord because of Israel's prophecies and the fulfillment he brought. That, and he established the church that still stands to this day
@@jackdaw6359agree. I love that the Bible tells all believers to test their faith with their brain, that God has, does, and will always provide evidence. That God always causes a public scene when he reveals himself and does not and will not require us to take one man's word for it. I love that the Bible advises us to not trust our feelings alone because they aren't facts. Blind faith, is unreasonable and not what is being asked of us. I LOVE that.
@@jackdaw6359Yes, and we can vindicate parts of little red riding hood because there ARE random houses in the forest where old grandmothers live, and who's daughter comes to visit... just because it's based on the reality around them doesn't make everything in it real. Unless you can provide the skeletal remains of an angel, or Jesus coming down from the heavens, it's all just historical literature tainted through the lense of a delusional religion. It's like saying 1+1=2 therefore God exists... yes 1+1 DOES equal 2, but your delusional conclusion to God ISNT real. You can find plenty of evidences that 1+1=2, but that evidence does not prove God just because you, erroneously, attributed to someone without any evidence in the first place. I can easily claim it also proves unicorns exist if I just claim everything was invented by unicorns.
I’m so grateful for this channel, I watched his video and had very similar thoughts. The fact that he portrays everything from a “more enlightened” position is ridiculous. I can understand coming to different conclusions, but his conclusion is not anymore enlightened or better than ours.
"but his conclusion is not anymore enlightened or better than ours." That is *pride* talking. "I was stupid, now I am smart!" And in a year or two or ten, suddenly he will be smarter yet.
@@baonemogomotsi7138 "Mormonism isn't Christianity" What a relief! Knowing the answer to simple questions is a relief. Knowing to whom Jesus prayed, for starters.
@@thomasmaughan4798Typical Mormon coherence. Read your Bible, pray every day, and find God. Of course cultists wouldn't understand why but may The Lord help you.
@@baonemogomotsi7138 "Typical Mormon coherence. Read your Bible, pray every day, and find God." For me the sequence was somewhat the other way round. I found God or more precisely he found me, then I found and read the Book of Mormon and it answered many questions, then I read the bible. I prayed as often as needed. "may The Lord help you." Thank you; he has.
43:43 regarding destroying the printing press - the context is needed here. Remember that Joseph Smith is just fresh from the experience of being victimized by mob violence and thrown in prison. Johnny said that 'Joseph was himself becoming militant'. This just isn't true. He was desperately trying to prevent mob violence, which is also why he came back across the river and gave himself up. He wanted to prevent the militia from turning violent on the Mormons.
I was raised LDS I married a catholic and we have 4 children 2 have stayed active and 2 are not active.. They are not in any way “brainwashed” to say the least .. and I love them all equally and have raised wonderful loving beautiful children who are kind intelligent humans .. do I wish they would all go to church .. of course I do but I know that everything will be ok because I raised them well.. And I know they love the Lord .. you can’t dwell on it .. only take it one day at a time and be a good Christ like example ..
People love blaming the prejudice of their parents onto the religion they followed, even though the prejudice is against the tenets of the religion itself.
@@general-i15No. Nothing in the Torah proves that. You need to use the new testament to prove your faith. I can read Hebrew. Jesus is never mentioned in Tanakh. I'm sorry.
BEAUTIFUL explanation of simplicity beyond complexity......Push through it! Study, pray, humble ourselves, be willing to discover and hope and then it's revealed....Johnny absolutely stopped...I feel for him as well, but maybe sooner or later he will try and push through that complexity and see the simple beauty of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Plural marriage will be explained to us in about 30 seconds in the next life and we will go...oh, now I get it. The complexity is real, it's tough to overcome and the adversary is literally hell bent on messing with us and ruining our faith in JESUS CHRIST...because it's really all about growing our faith in him. Great video David!
David, thanks for your reaction video. Also, thanks to Saints Unscripted over all these years. Your always giving me the assurance in these types of topics/videos that there's more than just what the critics say. That I can make an honest choice/argument for the restoration and this church and to stay. Looking forward to meeting ya'll at the Gather Together Conference this Saturday!
I've lived outside the "milk jug" for many years and have never understood ex-mos and antis. I think most of their conclusions are toxic and not completely truthful. They tend to sensationalize things. At least the vocal ones on youtube.
@@robertkinnear9659I think that it’s usually the vocal ones you hear by definition 🤣. I think some people leave for sincere reasons. It’s sad to me, but we must always pray for them, and love them as we do ourselves.
@randygerdes That's a silly take. So, you need to be a Muslim to see inside their jug and say their worldview may benefit or harm others? Do you need to adopt every single worldview in existance in order to determine if they're good or bad?
@@Mr-Thou I don't think you need to do that to determine if they're good or bad, but if you want to understand them, it would help. And, you don't have to understand unless you're curious. It's optional. So Harris is criticizing Mormons, but do Mormons understand why? Do they want to? Some great work done on "Strive to Understand, then to be Understood"...Stephen Covey, I think. A Mormon.
@randygerdes Of course it would help you understand others if you've lived in their shoes. Thing is, this is not practical. What, you're going to live each year of your life in a different religion, community and/or country in the world? You might, and this might teach you a lot about others. However, this poses two major problems: 1. Not everyone has access to that luxury, even if they wanted to. The vast majority of people need to work hard to make a living, and that requires stability - not changing your habits and beliefs in revolutionary ways every so often. 2. Beliefs are not like clothes. If you sincerely believe in a Christian morality, but you start living according to an Atheist worldview, then you're betraying your own conscience. And this won't help you live in any side of any jug - it will just create unbearable cognitive dissonance.
You’re much more diplomatic than I would’ve been. I do take serious issue with the arrogance of so many people that leave church that claim to be so much more enlightened now that they’ve left, and that active, believing members are being fooled. Like you said, we’ve all been presented with the same information, but have come to a very different conclusion. I feel like I’ve returned to the simplicity side of all the complexities of the Gospel and it’s beautiful.
A few years ago, as I was preparing to serve a mission my cousin visited me at my house one night evening. After learning that I was going to serve a mission, she asked me a pretty compelling question that changed my entire life. "Do you know that the Church is true?" She said, "Do you know that the Book of Mormon is really true?" I was stunned. For the first time in my life, I dug deep into whether I really knew these things to be true or not. I grew up in the church, my dad served as a Stake President before and I've always known that I had to go on a mission. I've always been taught that these were true but I never really had a solid testimony of these things. My cousin, seeing at that time that I couldn't answer her straight, she said, "If you don't know these things yet, please hold your feet that you won't go on a mission because you will just go home." For me, that was a really pivotal moment in my life. So I dedicated a year for me to really know if these things I have been taught all my life. In my search for the truth, I have found out through the Holy Ghost that these are really true. That the Book of Mormon is really indeed a word and a work of God. Joseph Smith was called to be a prophet. I know it and I could not deny it. It is amazing to search for whether Joseph was a legitimate writer or storyteller or whether the Book of Mormon really does connect with the Bible or gives facts about Jesus Christ but I think the most important thing we can do or what matters the most is we will know if the Book of Mormon is true or not. If we believe in God, then we know that He listens and hears our prayers. We can ask. If God lives, He will answer. Through the Book of Mormon, I have come much closer to Jesus Christ along with the Bible. I don't believe it is the work of the adversary himself to make such a thing only for you to have a stronger belief and faith in Jesus Christ. We can always ask, and we can always get answers from the right sources. I used to be a person where everything has to make sense and everything has to connect logically but these things are spiritual, and they can be answered spiritually because Jesus can.
You found out through the holy ghost? Please describe what that is and how it can be demonstrated as anything other than your emotional bias working to confirm itself. The holy ghost isn't really an effective 'research' method.
I am a convert to the church. I , too, have become much closer to Christ through the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon. I was baptized Oct 20, 2023 and confirmed Oct. 22, 2023. I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I have great peace. I am learning more about the Bible than I ever did in my former church. I am grateful for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the restored gospel is healing my life. I am so grateful for a living prophet, and all that our Heavenly Father gives us; he gives us revelation, the opportunity for daily repentance, and the gift of the Covenant Path.
@@danbailey2964 Gal 5:16 “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” The Bible itself states that you should be guided by the Holy Ghost.
@@danbailey2964 Joh 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
You can make anything sound weird and twist the feeling surrounding something by adding weird music and tones like Johnny used. It would be fun to see how much it would change Johnny’s video if the music and sounds were changed to not be so weird
That also goes the same way with the way the church creates their own videos. One could argue that the church makes things seem more holy or spiritual than they really are. It's simply the nature of the beast
@@jonbaker476 "One could argue that the church makes things seem more holy or spiritual than they really are." After a while it becomes conspicuous. ;-)
Active member here. I'm enjoying your channel and appreciate the approach you took with this video! A couple observations: - He's actually correct in stating the Land Bountiful was likely in present-day Oman. The site isn't far from the border with Yemen. - I don't know that I'd agree it was a mistake to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor, but I can understand the logic.
The destruction of the expositor is certainly a debatable point. No one knows what would have happened had no action taken place, or if there could have been a third choice. The facts are, that within a fortnight of the expositor being destroyed Hyrum and Joseph were dead.
Joseph was such a talented charlatan that he somehow convinced three witnesses that they saw and heard an angel presenting gold plates, fabricated metal plates that he was able to pass off as an ancient record to eight more, convinced Sidney Rigdon that he saw a vision, convinced Oliver Cowdery that John the Baptist and Peter, James and John conferred the priesthood on them, and most amazing he duped me some 143 years after his death that I had received a miraculous witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon that subsequently turned the entire direction of my life. Greatest con-man ever!
@@chrisblanc663 Even if it takes fabricating a book that draws men and women to a deep relationship with Christ while conning them to believe an angel appeared to them and testified of its correct translation, being tarred and feathered, thrown into jail for months at a time, building multiple faithful communities, sending out multiple missionaries throughout the world, etc. Hey if that’s what it takes to con men it’s all worth it. Am I right?!
So many great points to consider in this response. It's not always easy to sort through these questions. I had never heard of the Hafen's talk around faith starting with simplicity, then moving to complexity, then back to simplicity but I have experienced that on some level myself. The word that comes to my mind from multiple stories in the scriptures is "wrestle" (Enos in the Book of Mormon, Jacob in the Old Testament). Faith is not always without a struggle. Complexity and not having a perfect knowledge can cause us to have to wrestle. Some of my most challenging times where I have had to wrestle with God to come to an understanding have been the most rewarding. I think the wrestle is necessary for increasing spiritual growth. In my experience, that wrestle has been the stepping stone for increased faith and a catalyst for coming to better understand who God is. Without some complexity I would have less reason to turn to God to find answers and to turn to him with more diligence and focus and a willingness to learn. In my experience he has provided clarity, peace and answers on difficult subjects but they have generally not come until I have that wrestle before him.
As someone who’s had a faith crisis and is very skeptical, I don’t need another ex Mormon to be the one to explain history. I’m sure he’s done his research, but I really don’t get people who have left for years and still decide to dedicate hours and days and even years to try to prove a religion wrong. In fact it just shows me that he has not healed in a lot of ways. I know a lot of ex Mormons who really are content living life and moving on. But I guess this is the content that brings money and views.
Of course he is miserable and money comes in to play. Your friends have not moved on I bet they are part of an ex mormon community and roam the internet bashing the church.
Exactly. I totally agree that he has not healed. I think the reason so many can’t let it go is because it was such a part of their lives. They probably had lots of family and leaders pressuring them a lot so that doesn’t really go away when they leave because they still feel like they have to prove something. Truthfully, I see this more as a people problem than a gospel problem, but that’s something they have to find themselves.
@@jabulani22shepo61 I don’t entirely agree with that. I have family who left the church around the time I was born. They do have their disagreements with the church and have been open about them but for the most part, they really aren’t obsessed with proving anyone wrong or talking about how bad it is. If anything, they actually recognize a lot of the good about church and have attended church meetings with us even when they were definitely out. They know that it has a lot of meaning to their loved ones and they recognize that meaning and embrace it. Maybe there’s a lot they don’t talk about but for the most part, I really don’t think they go to ex Mormon communities and talk trash. They live pretty busy and fulfilling lives and I would be really surprised if they actually spend time doing that.
I think I this is something I’ve observed: they claim the church is binary and dogmatic. But when people leave they leave and it’s allllll out. They still have the “dogmatic” in them. They are in fact being binary in their decisions. Not gonna lie. Im sure Johnny is a great guy but his eyes…his stare is really hollow and he doesn’t transmit any peace.
I am in the process of converting to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (I am new and don't want to be disrespectful by saying LDS or Mormon, not sure what is and isn't okay). Since losing my husband to cancer at only 23, I haven't felt this strongly about anything beyond my children. Johnny, in him, I see a lot of hurt and anger and almost defiance? I feel sad for what he's going through as his pain is evident and my experience in the church has been joyful. Like he's almost angry at himself and the church. I would not be suprised if one day he comes back and also if he does not. I hope he finds peace regardless. As for me...I have not found such happiness outside of my husband and children. God is good! I am very grateful for the restored church. And also for this channel 💜.
My biggest issue with this and other videos critical of the church is the a/v style of this and other videos. It starts out with images of the SLC temple, the Choir, filtered with an old and worn-out film filter that is darkened. Very reminiscent to the Godmakers and it's dreary opening on the Washington D.C., depressing music and all. They make the movements of Joseph a caricature, like something from South Park. Actually I think when South Park did a spoof on Joseph Smith and the church, their animation movement was better. I also see some Monty Python influences with Jesus coming up through the clouds. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think Joseph Smith ever said anything about a Mother in Heaven. There is an old hymn by Eliza R. Snow that refers to a Mother in Heaven, but I'm fairly confident there is no first-hand statement by Joseph of any doctrine of a Mother in Heaven. Now we have adopted "Heavenly Parents" which I don't have a problem with, nor do I personally have a problem with a Mother in Heaven. Personally I believe in a Mother in Heaven. But the idea that not only is there a Mother in Heaven, but that there are Mother's in Heaven has never been taught by Joseph, Nor has the specific act necessary to create spirit children been stated or even inferred except by critics. Yet the culture continues to perpetuate some of this non-LDS doctrine. We're not even sure if there is a need to have a spirit body created because in speeches made by Joseph Smith, like the King Follett discourse and the Sermon in the Grove that occurred just weeks before he died, spirits and an intelligence are often used to mean the same thing. There is, has, and will continue to be all kinds of speculation on how per-mortal beings become spirits ready to be born on earth, but it's unlikely we will know until after we have the capacity to understand. Maybe when we are translated/resurrected, or maybe not until after the millennium. What also strikes me odd is that many of these concepts are biblical. They may not be concepts of the Traditional Christian persuasion, but many are biblical. Joseph, early on, was warned through both spiritual and physical (being shocked when trying to grab the plates) that there was only one purpose for the plates. Any straying from that purpose would result in the destruction of both Joseph's life and soul. After being prepared by Moroni for seven years, Joseph understood his charge very well. Why Johnny doesn't realize this, or maybe he does but won't admit it, baffles me. Maybe my mission, due to the veracious anti-Mormon communities, prepared me more fully for these questions. With everything he has criticized so far, much of it is very superficial and can be applied to any religion or scripture. Applying Johnny's method here, what kind of lawless kook could he make Jesus out to be? I've read, listened to, and heard much more than what is being presented here, and like you, David, even with all the nuances, problems, perceived inconsistencies and anything else I still believe. And quite wholeheartedly, I might add. If one listens closely and applies it to the New Testament, there is amazing similarities. Jesus was accused of breaking laws, living outside the norm, being weird, and making claims that were blasphemous. Modern-day critics of the LSD Church and Joseph Smith sound so much like that Pharisees and Sadducees of Christ's day, it's difficult not to draw the parallel. Maybe that's why most LDS turn to non-belief and atheism rather than to other religions; because the other religions make even less sense, therefore cancel out an option. Facts are relative to individual interpretation. Very few interpret the same facts the same way. If this were true there would be no political, environmental, religious, gaming platform, etc, etc, divisions. Since we know this isn't true then we know that facts are understood differently. I personally have spent over 30 years being necessarily logical because I have to know how to talk to computers being a computer programmer. While I try not to get insulted when people tell me they know the facts and that's why they can't continue to be a member, I'm like "Wait! I still believe! Are you calling me ignorant or stupid because you think you know or understand the facts better than I do?" I try to give everyone leeway based on individual and human shortcomings. The same should be given to early church leaders and other members. Also, it should be given to those who decide to leave or become less active. My only issue with individuals like Johnny is that can't leave the church alone after they decide it's not for them. I have a lot of family, and a child or two who have left the church. As much as I want them to come back, it's not up to me. But I am glad they respect us enough to shove their ideas in our face. This also makes me wonder why so many Like Johnny feel the need to preach the anti-gospel and demean people while doing it. David, great job on the video. I'm not sure I would be as patient. I'm old enough to start seeing this garbage being recycled on younger people and it gets tiring. But I did have a faith crisis on my mission that caused me to search and study much harder than I was. It also made me pray and fast much more diligently. I still think it takes work because if your not going forward, you are going backwards. I see that in my family and with some of my children. I love Saints Unscripted. So grateful you are here. Keep up the good work and sorry this was so long.
Unless you accept Johnny's syrup sweet voiced setup none of this makes any sense. BTW Joseph Smith Sr. Was deeply religious, holding devotionals twice a day that neighbors made a point to attend. He simply was not swayed by the preachers of the day.
@@paulblack1799 you can believe in your made up story all you want, just don’t go about criticizing others for making no sense when you actually believe that stuff Joseph smith did
Rather than calling his video 'What Mormons Really Believe' it would have been more accurate to have called it 'What I have renegotiated myself into presenting as LDS beliefs and history in order to convince myself and others that my waning faith is actually a positive thing.'
Look. I'm not sure if the start of his video is where this reaction started but can anyone living in this moment say that they know Joseph Smith well? If that is how he starts then the rest of his video probably continues down the same track. Even if he has read all of the Joseph Smith papers he is not in position to make this claim and him doing so leads to a very large eye roll for me right out of the gate. No man knows my history....
I think he meant, know of JS well. I grew up knowing the JS story, and have read biographies letters etc. I wouldn’t say I know him well, since I never met the man, but I have a pretty decent idea about him.
Everyone is on their own spiritual journey. Just because you grew up in one faith path does not mean that you'll be on that faith path for the rest of your life. Spiritual Growth happens at its own pace for every individual. Choosing any faith as an adult is really important. I am pretty sure that as a historian an objective historical perspective does exist regarding the social, culture and historical facts of Joesph smith life e.g he was born, he had a leg operation, he had his 1st vision age 14 years old and he was murdered on etc etc. An objective historial perspective can't not be used to tell you if Mose talked to burning bush which was God, or if Jesus really heal a blind man, or if Peter heal the sick, or if the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was visited by the angel Jibril (Gabriel), or if Nephi really saw an angel, or if Siddhartha really got enlightened, or if Gurū Nānak age 30 disappear for 3 days and came back with divine revelation, or if a 14 year old boy saw Jesus and God while praying. Those experiences are beyond human history. But what these experience all have in common is that the divine gives revelation to one person at the time in a quiet spaces away from others. Spiritually is life long journey not a race.
Its so odd to when former members make it seem like the thing that is so cool and compelling about the restored church is the treasure, magic, wives and heavenly mother, and then declare it was discovering those obscure elements that shattered their testamony? It can't be both!
I would personally disagree with your statment. To me, it would be like you meeting a girl who's adventurous and exciting and is extremely energentic and bubbly, but then discover that all those endearing characteristics are only a part of her because she's a cocain addict, and she's been high every time you saw those endearing qualities. Suddenly, those endearing qualities take on a very different image than what you had originally seen and had been excited about. That's a weird analogy but the point is that two things can be true at a time. At first, the things you loved and learned were great, but then as you learn more about those qualities, you realize that what seems like a good thing on the surface is actually a bad thing.
Or, if you're a woman, it would be like if you married a man who was incredibly fit and hard-working but then you discovered he was a drug addict, which was the only way he could accomplish what he had accomplished. What you originally found to be intriguing and endearing suddenly flips and becomes tainted and repulsive. You suddenly begin to question everything, even your own sense of judgment and expectations
Great reaction video! Reminds me of what Elder Holland says about how there will be times when we will be called to defend our faith and that is the time when we will need to be courageous and courteous. And you were both! And I will also add that you were very compassionate, exactly how a disciple of Jesus Christ would respond. I also cringed every time you did when Johnny implied that those who choose to be faithful are brainwashed. I totally agree that we are all presented with the same information but just exercising our agency to come to conclusions that our differing degrees of faith brings us to. Thank you for this video! Keep up the great work!
The thing that urks me s that he keeps saying the book was written. No author, no matter how talented and knowledgeable, was able to create something as miraculous as The Book of Mormon. Let alone a farmer in the 1820s. This is why we need to rely on The Spirit when it comes to out belief. When we take it upon our own wisdom, as limited beings, we will be easily deceived.
You should take a few hours sometime and look at some of the great works of literature that were created in the same amount of time as the book of mormon. I was astounded at how many. I am not going to give examples as it just takes a few minutes to put in your own search criteria. I will say it is not uncommon for someone to write a great novel in a very short period of time.
Fair Mormon has debunked Wayne may. Google it. His theories are interesting but not credible. Definitely not supported by the maxwell institute either.
Shame Johnny Harris's video was so short. Mormonism on MythVision Podcast is much more detailed and in 27 videos about one hour each. An eye opener and worth watching.
Really appreciate you taking this on and reacting in a sensible fair way. Ultimately it relies on faith and His spirit to know the truth. Nothing can ever be proven, even the Bible. Thanks for all you do to encourage LDS members to continue in faith even with difficult questions that they don’t fully understand, with certain teachings and doctrines. To be patient and long suffering and that the answers will come by His source. We need more people like you to stand up and to stay strong to the most beautiful thing that the God has to offer which is the Restoration of His Church and Kingdom that is everlasting. A faith that requires something of you, your heart and by doing so not only do you want to change but you want to be more like Him, not only to be happy in this life but to truly know and love Him. It truly is a beautiful thing. I just went to Palmyra for the first time. I already knew in my heart it was true. I asked myself, “what would I gain?” “What would I learn that I didn’t already know?” And when I approached Joseph’s little humble home and the path leading to the Sacred Grove, I knew. There was no doubt. That’s all we need to know. Been following you for quite a while. Keep it up man. Thanks brother!
I appreciate both where you and Johnny come from. As a white, lds, grew up and gave my life to the church member for 27 years of my life, I feel connected to both of you. For myself, leaving the LDS church is one of the proudest decisions of my life, I was incredibly brave in the face of massive social pressure, and leaving has been the best thing for my life even though I was so terrified to do so. We are all on this journey together in one way or another. One step at a time, in our own unique individual way.
I'm sure you are aware, Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints did a reaction video to this guy's "Why I left the Mormon church" video. Have you addressed these things with him? I'm curious how that went/goes.
The complexity of the Book of Mormon is astounding. Going back and forth between narrative/commentator past/present. I want a count of how many references prophesy or reference something that happens later in the book successfully. For instance The reference to the jaredites in Omni and then Ether. Gadianton in Helaman and then Mormon and Moroni. There are a lot.
It is really not that complex. If it were then why was there so much confusion about when Christ would return. Lehi and his family knew almost to the day when He was going to return but the prophets in the middle did not. It is because it was all made up and then the beginning had to be made up again when the first 116 pages were lost. Joseph's peep stones were all apparently in the shop getting a tune up or he would have been able to see where those pages were or what had happened to them. They could also not work to re-translate those lost pages which is why it is such a big mess. He goes from story line to story line. Once he is done with a character he does not go back.
Well said about the witnesses of the BOM. I am an inactive member of the church however they spirit I felt reading and praying about the BOM and the church in general is undeniable. Thanks for the great work you do slam dunking over these ExMos. Keep up the great work!
Who penned the statements of the witnesses? Did the witnesses see with their physical eyes or spiritual eyes? That is an important distinction. One that his hidden and very misleading by the BOM.
They claim in no uncertain terms. I think Martin Harris, but could have been one of the other two, he liked to start conversations with people by saying, “hey kid, you see that tree stump over there?” The kid would say yes, and he would follow up with “as surely as you see that tree stump, I saw the Gold plates.” So he at least claimed to see with natural eyes, as well as with spiritual.
So, this comes from the 3 and 8 witnesses. The 3 witnesses claim they were not shown the physical plates, but an angel showed them. The 8 witnesses did indeed testify that they saw the physical plates.
From the first moment of the video - Johnny misses Hebrews 12:2 - Jesus Christ is the 'author' and 'finisher' of our 'faith'. Not Joseph Smith Jr. That applies to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints . . .
@@jackdaw6359I’m sorry. I learned that the BOM was true after I went on a “religion quest” at the age of almost 20. I had searched majority of other religions. I didnt search the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until last because I was from Utah and I thought I knew everything about them. Good luck!
I have compassion for him as you can genuinely see that he's grieving his once deeply felt beliefs. My heart aches for my brother. Hoping he can come out the other side, but if not, I know he is SO LOVED by His Saviour and Heavenly Father. They know how he is feeling. They understand his dilemmas and his conclusion.
On my mission we had an investigator come to church for the first time and this hymn was sung that day. He read carefully every word and thought it super interesting... He did join the church and was a great member.
I firmly believe the mission field is the main reason people end up leaving the church, even moreso than the temple rituals or church history. The Brethren know this as well, which is why they've constantly been trying to keep RMs from going inactive, all the way back in President Hinckley's day. I myself have been diagnosed with PTSD, as well as a generic anxiety disorder, and it's all pretty much from my mission back in 2016. I got back right before they made the change that you could actually talk to your family on Pdays. It's strange how at the time I had convicned myself it was a good experience but then immediately started having really intense and bizaare psychological problems after getting back home. Looking back on it, I had the same issues while I was in the mission as well, but the lifestyle was so intense and I was constantly working that I was able to suppress my issues via becoming a workaholic and never giving myself tie to think about what I was feeling
A really cool detail left out in this video is in Joseph Smith’s translating was that he couldn’t even pronounce some of the words he would have to spell them out to the scribes
Harris’ video is very thoughtful. As a Catholic, I found it useful to watch to get a more balanced view of the church that I myself obviously do not participate in. Although he has some clear bitterness towards the LDS Church, he does point to clear historical fact that should be a point of challenge to all LDS members. The disappointment ultimately is that he appears to now be agnostic towards any faith, which is a complete tragic loss. The LDS church could learn from testimony like Harris’.
Actually started watching the video from this guy the other day and immediately discerned the manipulation of perception being used. It just seemed like another individual getting in on the post Mormon bandwagon and providing the same criticisms of truth claims with their own personal angst they experienced. Glad to see a response to this. It gets tiring of these individuals using the same old tactics in a new package. The production is good though and it will grab attention to many that are not up on the deep history and understanding. Nevertheless, this is kind of like multilevel marketing in which failed in the past so it is repackaged with new lipstick. CES letter was that very thing and is just old criticism’s cast in a new light. Oh yeah…really loved the comment “from our research”. As if there is this team of historical sleuths that are discovering something that real historians haven’t already provided. It is laughable but unfortunately sad. They have their reward I guess.
Understanding how these guys operate who preach and teach against the faith online is key. If you can get this, no one, no matter how "intellectual" or "reasoned" or "objective" will be able to lead you astray. (And the more education we have, the better.) The first red flag on Johnny Harris is the name he uses to describe Christ's modern church - in the very title of his video: "Mormon" Church. No, it's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And he likely knows that the restored Church of Jesus Christ does not identify by that old, tired nickname that obscures who we are - as well as Christ and His Church. Is this the Church of Jesus Christ or is it not? That is the central question they do not want to directly answer - instead, they go in the side door of your mind in their effort to position things. So in the first place they try to go after the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, with the usual drumbeat list of attack points. There's not one original thing in Harris's video. It is not just a "personal essay." He's out here trying to persuade, or he wouldn't be here. Let's not ignore the obvious. And let us not fall for the idea that "objective" reasoning is the best approach to determining truth. Common-sense reasoning, yes. But who is the arbiter of what is "objective" and what is not? As for common sense, it tells me that God and Christ exist, that we are not alone in the universe. The idea that we are temporary organisms that just spring up and live and die and are never heard of again is absurd. Having established that God must exist, then what is the role of Christ, is He God's Son? Is He the Christ? And from there, would they leave us as individuals alone in this hyper-confused modern world? And if Christ's church existed in the meridian of time, is it also on the earth today? Now there's reasoning...
Let us not forget that with such a title, he gets thousands of viewers. These thousands of viewers lead to the lining of he pockets. Huge motivation for producing such a video.
If I were this guy who produced this video, I’d be ashamed to meet God and Jesus one day. It’s bad enough to leave the Lord’s Church, and it’s worse to persecute it in one’s mind, but to spread these lies across the internet for all to see, young and old alike, is chilling to think about for me!!!!!! My daughter, who had formerly desired to serve a mission, but never did because of circumstances, left the Church a few years ago, and also denies both God’s and the Savior’s existence. It broke my heart when she first told me four years ago!! I can only imagine the agony that this young man’s parents suffer! His persecution of the Church on the internet must feel like a never-ending cancer to them!! 😢💔
@@deboraholsen2504 I hope you were kinder to your daughter when she told you this than you are to Mr. Harris. I spend all day every day living with the pain that I hurt my children so much as they were growing up. We raised them in the church and they all have and are working through the pain we caused them by using shame as a way to correct behaviors. I am only speaking for myself in this and it is not directed at the mormon church. I know that is the wrong term but I was raised mormon and my children were raised mormon. I was raised with shame as a tool to keep me in line and I continued that abusive method when raising my children. So sad for me to have to look back at what I put them through. Since leaving full and active membership in the church and just using the example of Christ rather than the teachings of men I have been able to see what is so wrong about that method. It is so freeing to realize that the only real commandment is to love God and to love our neighbors and to really study what Christ actually taught without the lens of mormon teachings to blur the view. Good luck with navigating the path as a parent as it is a tough job and I regret so many mistakes I made with our children.
One thing that, perhaps, Johnny doesn't realize is that one of the largest sources he uses to support his views of Joseph Smith and our history is Richard Bushman, a faithful Latter-day Saint. Throughout history, we have seen what happens when society deems a group an "other." Johnny's video, which has over a million views, is just one of many things that contributes to larger society viewing members of our church as an "other." Tell the story of our church, please, but keep out your attempts to make us look strange or weird or cult-like.
I just love how people who have no testimony leave the church but do it being a know-it-all. Suddenly they're experts in the field they no longer support. Yup. Makes perfect sense to me🤦. Funny thing.... one day Joseph Smith will be made known to the world and all the "experts" in the world who have been deceived by the devil will have to answer to God. God called Joseph Smith to give up his life to restore his church so I wouldn't dare challenge him that way and expect to walk away without consequences.
Yeah, that bugs me too. I know the argument people make is that if you’re in the church, then you’re biased, so it doesn’t mean you have real research. I actually think the opposite. It’s always baffled me that people don’t like church apologists because I feel like they do actually have more access and resources than people who don’t believe because the church is literally a part of a lot of people’s FAMILY history so they have documents filled with various testimonies, revelations, and 1st hand accounts of what was going on in the church at the time. I’m not sure why people tend to trust people who leave. Maybe it’s their bias that if a someone is skeptical about a religion they were already skeptical about then their bias is confirmed.
@@HalE14 I agree... People use these kinds of videos to justify their already lacking faith. For those who hold strong to the faith aren't interested in their need for attention or at least we shouldn't be. Sadly however, out of curiosity...some get carried away and end up being another "expert". We're supposed to doubt our doubts before we doubt our faith🤷. It's like those who hate the book of Mormon but have never picked it up or open one page but already know everything in it, calling themselves "expert's". I never thought I would live to see so much crazy but here we are..... 😭
Why do you assume he has no testimony? He dedicated 2 years of his life to being a missionary. It's getting really old to see some other members judging and feeling above anyone who doesn't beleive as they do. We learn in church to love others but then people come and make these kind of comments. Plus, why do you care what he believes now. Insecure people who aren't confident in who they are or their own beliefs feel the need to put others down.
This kind of this like this Johnny's video happens so often on RUclips. People think they can get to the bottom of everything in a short time because of google, without even looking for arguments for the possibility they aren't considering, and they make a cinematic video about it claiming they have the absolute knowledge and thinking they are both Neil Degrasse Tyson and Morgan Freeman at the same time.
Great job in critiquing Johnny's video. I watched his video also and totally agree with your conclusions. You also caught some fine details that I missed. I also love how understanding and kind you are towards folks like Johnny who are in the middle of a faith crisis. That's a great example of how we all should treat those who have left our faith. It compounds the problem though when they become very vocal about it, sharing their opinions in the public arena, given that they should be exercising more caution about 'certainty' when it comes to very controversial subjects such as this one. I would think that would also complicate things if and when folks like Johnny do decide to return to their faith, or at least make it harder for them to return. Of course, we always welcome folks back wholeheartedly, no matter their history of what they did while away on their own personal faith journey. Critics of the church seem to almost universally be under the false assumption that 'once church members fully investigate the 'true' history of their faith they would for sure leave'. They just don't seem to be able to comprehend that many, many church members have done this and have actually become stronger in their faith as a result, as I have done, and that there are actually plausible answers/solutions to all of these types of questions. Some of the answers may be tentative and not 100% certain, but there is plausibility at the very least. Also, it's often true that 2 different people can look at the same sets of data and come to opposite conclusions, with each answer being plausible.
It reminds me of putting together a puzzle that we only have some of the pieces for and making a monster with the puzzle pieces rather than putting together the pieces in the order and way they are supposed to go.
I saw that video and was kind of surprised! I thought it was going to be a lot of anti-church stuff. While not all the details were accurate, it was a very beautiful video, even with the biases. You could really tell that the church meant a lot to Johnny at one point.
I’m not seeing that at all but you are entitled to your opinion of course. This is the kind of rhetoric that LDS scholars have been having ro debunk for years. Fair LDS for example handles all these arguments easily.
The part I couldn't stand was when he "summarized" Joseph's life into a reduced comparison of abusive cult leaders. Would you do that with Abraham, Jacob, or King David? By pruning a story down to three or four points, you can make it sound just like almost any other story you choose. It's even a meme format. The harm is when the audience doesn't know much about one of the stories, and fills in the blanks with the other one. In Joseph Smith's case, the similarity ends with those few points.
Your sincere, intelligent efforts producing content for this channel have brought me many insights. God bless all of you for spreading light and truth. It also gives me hope for the future to see young people with such wisdom! Thank you all!
Translation: 'Your sincere, intelligent efforts producing content for this channel have allowed me to confirm my bias toward the belief that I chose to have, while allowing me to excuse myself from doing any real critical analysis of the claims of my religion.'
Where can I find something about Don Bradley's new presented research? Sounds interesting! (Catrn I read some tidbits about it without having to purchase the three-part work?)
I believe he presented this research at the recent FAIR Latter-day Saints conference from earlier this month. You miiight be able to access it on their website (if not now, hopefully soon).
It’s one thing to leave the Church, it’s another to try to get others to join you. Harris’s position is similar to a guy named Korihor: “Behold, I know that thou believest, but thou art possessed with a lying spirit, and ye have put off the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God.”
The funny and sad thing is all modern day defectors are described to a T in the BOM. Whether it's korihor or sherem or the amlicites or the great and spacious building...it's all there, and yet they use the exact same arguments to justify their rebellion against God.
Having met Johnny Harris in his younger years, I can't say anything but great things about him. Brilliantly talented guy with a curiosity that is second to none. The fact that he has left the church and that lately he has been open about his reasons to leave isn't at all a reason for me to doubt of his honesty and intent to do what he has concluded to be the right thing for him. I really appreciated his earlier video about his reasons to leave the church, and I took his latest "What Mormons REALLY Believe" as a personal essay supported with sources, but emphasis in "personal" nonetheless. The history of the church as understood today from credible sources provides plenty of transparency to arrive to many of the conclusions he has arrived to. Yet I'm skeptical of anyone, including Johnny, claiming to be the bearer of the "Real" story of anything--and that's where I take issue with the video. Not with the content or even with Johnny's conclusion, only with the portrayal of it in the thumbnail and title as being something like "finally! we finally have the REAL story". We know he doesn't have it. No one really has it. Not even our institutional church fully has it. It is a puzzle that many people across the belief and academic spectrum are trying to put together and therefore is an evolving story. And relying on an evolving story requires a LOT of faith--faith to either believe it, or to disbelieve it.
So again, I welcome Johnny's approach to his former faith and his story; I think it is carefully crafted to deliver a tone that is moderate and respectful, and I only wish he (and many others that engage in the online conversation about our faith) were more careful about claiming to be "the" source of truth about this whole thing.
Thanks for this reaction video!
Ditto. I also find it really ignorant when people claim they know the “real” story so that means that they need to leave and everybody else who stays doesn’t know the “real” story, and they have their head in the sand. maybe this was more realistic sounding years ago, but having experienced people online constantly talking about their decision to leave, most people are not just gonna sit there and ignore it. They are going to figure out why the heck all these people keep making all these claims and research it themselves. And for some, they will probably come to the same conclusion and leave. But for others, it’s just new information and doesn’t change our faith experiences. And also somewhere in between. But I agree that the story, however its told, is full of faith, so there really is no “real” story. You just have to come to your own conclusion because anytime I hear any “real” story, there’s actually a lot that isn’t explained.
I've done my research. And every time I research something that is said against the church, I go immediately and find out what happened. And every time I do the research , I find it is not at all what was being said. This Harris guy is lost. Can he come back yes, but he is off. He tells 98 percent of the truth , to wether he did it on purpose or not doesn't , matter it matters , that he is not speaking the truth. Wether through omission , or he is seeing it with blinders.
His title was obviously clickbaty. But what he told was actually pretty close to the first lesson the missionaries teach. His video includes stuff that is not included in this reaction like the first vision. I don't think that his intention was to give some alternative, mind-blowing story, he just wanted to give the real story as the church teaches it including all the details we leave out because "babies need milk, not meat" and stuff like that. I think he was still pretty respectful towards the church with his video.
After moving to DC he sold out for the almighty dollar and he admits to the loss of the spirit even though he may not recognize that. If you look carefully you can see the light in him before he left the church and now you can see the light is gone.
He never mentions the 3 or the 8 witnesses.
I am an ex Baptist now Mormon....i never say anything but great words about how the Baptist faith led me to this church. I love the Baptists (although at times they dont like me lol). If you leave your church, fair enough; I did so. But to then turn to tear it down, not a good game plan.
Maybe is because they still keep lying to people!
I have loads of respect for my Baptist friends! Love your attitude!
I don't think that it is his plan to "tear it down", his video would have been different if he tried to do that. I think he is just expressing his opinion. And why shouldn't he do that? It was a very fair video from his side, he didn't bring up any fake news. Everything he says is church doctrine in his video is actually church doctrine. His video was fair.
Well, I grew up between the Assembly of God and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as far as I'm concerned with the Assembly of God their music and worship is awesome but their pastors most of the time were kind of nuts. Always screaming, etc.
I attended one of those myself. and yes def loved the music @@BrianTerrill
They came to America to get away from the Church of England which was a dictator. They came here to worship God in the way that they knew. They didn’t come here to abandon religion
That's a key point of misinformation already which is only going to skew my view further of what he has to say.
Many of the founding Fathers were religious or believed in God. They weren't anti-religion, they didn't like state sanctioned religion, thus the 1st amendment.
You're right: the main motivation of the Pilgrim Fathers in setting up the Plymouth Colony was so they could worship as they chose; as far as that goes, the sanitised mythology we were taught in grade school is correct. But the fact is that the Puritans were a bunch of religious fanatics who wanted to create a theocracy based on their narrow understanding of the Bible. Prior to getting on the Mayflower, they lived in The Netherlands where they were free to worship however they chose. But that wasn't good enough for them. In modern terms, they found it constantly triggering to live in a community where they were surrounded by decent people who did not believe as they did, and they were terrified that the general religious tolerance of that country meant that some of their members - particularly their children - might get fed up with their oppressive interpretation of the Bible and move to another church. In short, the true story of the Pilgrims is an ancient one: the men in positions of power in a church found ways of dressing up their moves to maintain and increase that power in holy garb, and they managed to bamboozle most of their gullible flock. (Hmmm... In the context of this video, you mentioning the Pilgrims was actually very appropriate!)
@@XiongGou There is no definite answer to how many attended church in 1790. The 10% claim was first proposed by a couple of historians in the 1990's
But, it contradicts 2 things. The number of chappels and cathedrals that were being built during the 18th century increased.
And journals and those who were well known
"Even today 27% of Americans qualify as regular churchgoers, according to the 2022 General Social Survey."
1. "(Washington) regularly attended services held by military chaplains, and also with local civilian congregations. As president, between 1789 and late 1790, he worshipped at St. Paul's Chapel and at Trinity Church both in Manhattan.
2. Eli Whitney was known to be a religious person and attended church. He was raised in a devoutly religious household and grew up with strong Christian values. Whitney's family belonged to the Congregational Church, and he was raised with a solid foundation of faith. While there isn't an extensive amount of information available about his personal religious practices, it's widely acknowledged that he had a connection to the church and its teachings.
3. Alexander Hamilton was also known to have attended church. He was raised as a Presbyterian and had a strong religious upbringing. Throughout his life, he attended various churches in different locations where he lived, including Trinity Church in New York City. Hamilton's religious beliefs played a significant role in his life, and he often expressed moral and ethical viewpoints that were influenced by his Christian background.
4. Throughout his life, Jefferson did attend church services at times, but his attendance was irregular and often for political or social reasons rather than strictly for religious devotion. He occasionally attended Anglican (Episcopal) services, especially during his time in Virginia. However, there are accounts that suggest he may have felt uncomfortable with some of the religious aspects of these services.
5. Thomas Paine was known for his skeptical and critical views on organized religion.
6. John Adams did attend church and was a religious person. He was a Congregationalist in terms of his religious affiliation. Adams was raised in a devoutly religious family, and his Christian faith played a significant role in his life and values. Throughout his life, he maintained a connection to his religious beliefs and attended church services.
7. Benjamin Franklin's relationship with religion was nuanced. While he attended church services at times and believed in a higher power,
There, that's 4 out of 7. That's almost 60%.
Ah yes the puritans. They were cruel to anyone who disagreed with them. Alongside the Roman Catholics, the Church of England was just politically involved in everything. Tsk Tsk Tsk. No wonder Jesus said no church that existed were true.
Actually, you're incorrect and he is in the right, though I don't think you understand what his point is. I think Johnny simply phrased it in a way that made it seem like everyone was an atheist or something. Pretty much every christian religion in America is derived from Protestantism. They were literally protesting mainstream christianity in their day and age and wanted to be able to break free and do it in their own way, with their own ideas, free from the dictations of overlording authority figures. This is why hundreds of christian faiths were created during the time of JS. That's literally what Protestantism is about. Most people in America at the time of JS believed in God but a huge chunk of people were not actually church goers, or they were constantly shifting from religion to religion.
I have a question for Mormons, if a man in a similar stature to Joseph Smith were to announce today that he found the plates after the angel Moroni spoke to him to transcribe more of the book of Mormon, would yall believe him and he become your new prophet?
There have been cases of people trying that. Usually a few members of their family and a few friends join. And that's as far as they grow.
@@JonathanHamilton-t9d thanks for the answer, I didn't mean it disrespectfully either. Genuinely just wanted to know. I used to be religious (Christianity) and walked away from it to embrace Deism.
I dont think this would happen.....
No. Only the prophet/president of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints holds the priesthood keys to receive revelation for the whole earth. So a random dude claiming to be a prophet because Moroni appeared to him would make zero sense. The Lords church is a house of order (D&C 132:8) and He will not lead His people astray like that. If the Lord wants to bring forth more scripture for us, He will do it through the prophet (Amos 3:7). Also, you can pray to receive your own personal revelation to know through the Holy Ghost what is true (Moroni 10:5)
@@christopherpeery7436 On this point, the reason Latter-day Saints believe Joseph Smith is different than any other farmboy is that he had the authority to be a prophet, but others wouldn't. This isn't an arbitrary assignment but is rather one based on scriptural prophecy and which is compatible with LDS theology.
We believe Priesthood power and authority was missing on earth in Joseph's time, hence the need for a restoration and a new prophet. And we just don't have that need anymore. Also, because it wasn't just a restoration of ideas, but of literal authority from Christ, we wouldn't accept any new prophets or any new world-wide revelations as authoritative. Thanks for the question!
Johnny raises the point that some members 'ignore' inconvenient details about church history, and I think there may be some truth to that. I think Johnny and a lot of other ex-members grew up in a time and a culture where some members did obfuscate the touchier subjects in the church's history in an attempt to protect people's testimonies. These members saw the value in the church and its teachings, and believed the best approach to tricky subjects was to not give them any sunlight, or even in some cases shun their discussion in order to not harm their children's growing testimony (after all, details about Joseph's life have little impact on our eternal salvation). Although this may have been done with good intentions, the result was a lot of people grew up without the reasoning ability or information to navigate these nuances, and basically believed the church was perfect in all its facets... so once they finally heard these details about the church from a website or some evangelical, their whole world view was shattered. Saints Unscripted is a real gift for helping people understand the nuances and difficulties behind imperfect people building God's church. Hope to see more people take up this endeavor
agreed!
well put Oliver!
I agree. I think this is why I’ve never been angry when I learn something new. I can see that testimonies are so valuable to people, so I really don’t think those people meant any harm but I am seeing a lot of value in just talking about it more. I think a lot more people would be gone if we didn’t talk about it.
As a former Mormon this is the first time I have ever heard that the witnesses actually saw the gold plates. I was always taught they were covered and they saw them through their spiritual eyes. And all of the witnesses were either related to Joseph Smith or a friend and his relatives. I have a hard time believing that if they actually saw the gold plates and handled them that they would leave the church just because of disagreements with Joseph Smith. If he really had these experiences and really had gold plates they would have been a defender of Joseph Smith till death as you are. They may not have denied their testimony so they wouldn't look like they had been duped --pride. I don't get why it's a big deal when people leave the church. As a believer and follower of Jesus I don't feel a need for church. I only need a relationship with God through Jesus. He is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. But for those that do need a church I say go, serve, participate in any church of your choosing but don't look down on anyone or criticize others beliefs. God Loves All His Creation. He Is LOVE.❤ Jesus came and showed that Love.❤ I do see lots of people making money on RUclips using religion and that's fine also if everyone will accept everyone and do it lovingly. I have noticed since Hello Saints started his channel people have been getting less critical and nicer. 👍 to Pastor Jeff. ❤
No. We ignore nothing that matters. Only losers fret about 200 years ago while Protestant Ravi Zacharias characters lead Protestants today.
Joseph didn’t decide to just leave. The saints were driven out with mobbing and burning homes and killing people
The saints in MO issued an extermination statement against Missourians LONG before Gov. Boggs issued his inhumane and inexcusable order. That said the people in MO did try to find ways to work with the saints there it is just too bad we as a people weren't willing to work harder to get along. We have a very severe persecution complex that exists to this day. Before you reply back telling me that I am a vile anti-mormon please read both volumes of Saints. That is where I got many of my facts from regarding our treatment in MO.
@@tykempton8562 The saints in Missouri were not perfect, but their treatment at the hands of the local population and the state itself was absolutely unjustified. I don't know how you get this both siderism nonsense from reading Saints.
Today it would be categorized as an attempted genocide under international law.
And Joseph didn't just take off the next day, like he makes it sound, or even a week later.
@@tykempton8562The people were more worried that the increasing numbers of antislavery supporters would cause Missouri to become a Free State. But they got paid back, for Missouri suffered the greatest loss of life during the Civil War, especially Northern Missouri.
As a Muslim, I really love to see what was with LDS and Mormon. It's open my mind and knowledge on this matter. Thanks.
I'm a member of Tue Church Of Jesus Christ LDS. I have respect for everyone & their Religious beliefs & Faith💙🙏💙 The call to Allah is absolutely beautiful! Blessings to all.
I loved the simplicity in complexity. It actually defines any meaningful you are involved in. Think of anyone that is special in your life. Think of all the times you might have been frustrated or angered by that person. Think of all of the things you didn't know about them at first and the struggles you had when you came to knowing them. Any marriage, parent, sibling, friend relationship goes through this simplicity in complexity paradox. The most meaningful relationships are typically ones that survive the complexity. That is why I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and why I love Jesus.
nobody I know married teenagers, sent men on missions and then married their wives, claim that some skeletal remains were those of a white lamanite named zelph, claim to translate egyptian papyrus into abrahamic writings.
@@Goobersnobber47 Yeah you must be living under a rock cause I know people who did far "weirder or worse" things than all of those. I know people that have murdered their children in their wombs, after having plenty of premarital sex consensual and nonconsensual to get them. I know people that have cheated on their spouses with pornography and with their babysitters. I know people that have relatives and ancestors that killed other people because of the color of their skin or the hat on their head. I know people who used the Bible and make changes and translations therein to weaponize and monetize Christ to get people to do what they want and build Churches through their priestcraft. I know people that believe stoning women and children for not obeying supposed religious law is alright. I know people who believe in prearranged marriages to teenagers. I know of cultures where the cheif sleeps with the bride before she weds. And this is just the people that I know. If I were to read the Bible, I would find prophets and kings that have done even 'weirder and worse' things too. Like Joseph a almost 40 year old marrying a impregnated 12 year old Mary and birthing Jesus. Like David who sent a man to his death to marry His wife who became the Great Great Great etc grandmother of Jesus. Like Abraham who just abandon his other wife in the desert. Like Moses who built a pagan idol serpant that would magically heal those who looked at it or worshipped it. All of these people that you are mentioning are probably people alive that you know too. If you are so self-righteous and can't associate with anyone that has done weird or worse things than Joseph, you must be a very lonely man who does nothing but share how he is the only righteous person in the world and that he doesn't hang around sinners. The fact is we love sinners being one of them ourselves. We have a Church that is designed to heal this wicked world through Restoration. Not all of us members are perfect and we make mistakes, but that is why we desperately need a Savior to make it possible to get better. I believe His Church was made for this purpose. We as a whole can say that we are much stronger than we were 200 years ago partly because of weird and worse things that Jesus restored. The fruits of this Church are a much better option than what the world has to offer. The moment you see how awful the world is compared to the weird things someone did 200 or 2000 years ago, you might care about swallowing your pride, getting out of your rock and actually learning what this Church really is.
Amen
The issue though is you do not know Jesus. You know a false Christ. Not the true Jesus of the Bible. You’ve received a false spirit. Joseph smith was deceived by the same demon that Muhammad was deceived by. The same demonic spirit appeared to both of them and deceived them both. The parallels between LDS and Islam and other cults are all right there if you’re honest enough to look at them.
The fact that retelling history is never objective is like the first thing you learn in a decent history class…
Let’s trust the LDS to be truly objective about their history
They're not. No one is. That's the point I was trying to make.@@TaskForceB
@@TaskForceB I think that's the point. History of something like the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Christianity itself is going to be told by people with extreme biases on the one side or the other. Imagine telling the history of the original Christian church - the whole thing started with a bunch of people who thought Jesus was risen from the dead and now sits on the right hand of God. I'd imagine people saying 'well, where is he then?'.
@@andrewolsen2711what’s great about this channel is that it dives into the mistakes made by church leaders, exploring all documents rather than a select few
@@joeoleary9010 ruclips.net/video/HhBpHNxSlpA/видео.html ruclips.net/video/YcTW6t2obe0/видео.html ruclips.net/video/KvWPmLLV3Jw/видео.html
I’ve recently stepped away from being LDS, I suppose I’m in the complexity phase unsure what’s next! I watched this original as well. I appreciate how level headed your response is and of course some bias is there with both parties but I always enjoy seeing both points of view! You’re definitely the best host of the Saints Unscripted to watch!
Thank you!
Step into the light and truth found in God's proven Word, the Bible, especially the Book of Galatians and Ephesians. As the whole New Testament will help you become free from sin and have certainty of a true relationship with God and find true peace and hope.
Good for you, asking the tough questions. May you find your answers and peace.
Thank you! It drove me crazy that he left out the witnesses. It feels like he should have known that and maybe left it out because its a stronger point?
I agree. Especially with a lot of the way he “objectively” presents history and doctrine, that is a key element that he should not have left out.
@@HalE14 Yeah, I mean he did a better job than most Anti, but still that's critical.
In his short video about our history he finds it fitting to mention Kolob and Joseph marrying a teenageer, but not that there are witnesses to the Book of Mormon and he doesn't think this is a biased representation?
@@adamb7230 exactly. Biased doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a jerk, but it definitely shows what is prioritized in your thinking
It’s clearly a hit piece. Google will server it first when people search “Mormonism”. This is how the world works now.
Joseph was religious. His family read the Bible every day.
Agree, many sources (family of Joseph smith) shared they read the Bible as a family and all but father attended local congregations including a 14 year old having a soul search towards a religion. Is that not young enough to be “religious”?
"Religious" is often used to describe a degree of religiosity--which would include a wide variety of regular practices. It's vague. But, I think, in this context, it just means he's not regularly attending a church. What little learning Joseph had, though, was probably learning to read from the Bible, which was very widespread practice at the time.
no Joes dad in woodscrape society weird
They were Freemasons
His family have a long history of practising magick and the occult
One interesting thing about sealings in general (not just marriage) is that originally the idea seemed to be that you would seal everyone to the prophets and apostles whether as children or wives or parents or what have you. The idea was that the sealings are only effective if the participants remain faithful and since many peoples family members had rejected the gospel (like nonmember parents) then they need to be sealed to those who were faithful or more likely to be at least. So even after Joseph and some other apostles had passed if your parents weren’t members or if a woman wasn’t married to a member they would be sealed to Joseph or brigham or someone else who was faithful their whole lives. It wasn’t till Wilford Woodruff had a revelation in the St George temple that they corrected the practice and everyone strictly had their families sealed as they are here on Earth. Doctrine is revealed line up one line. Not every aspect of things was revealed all at once or by one prophet so people tend to imperfectly try to fill in the gaps based on what they do know. All that to say that sealings were understood differently for the first 70 years or so of the church.
Revelation be like: listen, folks, stealing children was a bad idea.
@@ruslannykyforov5740 they just didn’t understand yet. revelation is line upon line. the one to Wilford woodruff was almost that blunt though haha. It went more like Wilford- “god should we be doing it this way?”
Holy Spirit- “do they have parents?”
Wilford- “yes”
Holy Spirit- “ then you should honor them.”
@@ruslannykyforov5740 The gospel of Jesus Christ is STILL being restored to this day.
Believing that all would be revealed immediately is just plain nonsense.
This is why Prophets are called of God to continue to restore His gospel.
Otherwise, why would there be a need for a Prophet after Moses since God had revealed the 10 commandments already.
Mosaic law was continually changed and updated as Hod saw the need to do so.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
@@brianc.1149 You make a lot of claims. Maybe you could provide a demonstration and evidence for each one that a person could examine and determine if your claims are in fact true.
Let's just start with animal sacrifice. The firstlings of a flock are no longer taken to Jewish temples to be sacrificed for the forgiveness of sin.
There were 48 Prophets and 7 Prophetesses in the Old Testament, yet a God who claims to be the same yesterday, today and forever doesn't have a Prophet among the Jews?
In the past few years, gospel changes have been made by Jesus Christ through his living Prophets. While DOCTRINE hasn't been changed, they way we worship has.
The problem with his story is that he takes truths and twists and turns them to fit his narrative. The first point begins in the beginning. Joseph Smith was a storyteller. Everyone was a storyteller at this time period. They had no radio, no TV, and newspapers are limited. Indian culture is full of storytellers. Some cultures still have storytelling as a center of their existence.
He makes a monster with the puzzle pieces and tapes it together rather than putting the puzzle together in their proper place.
@@zionmama150 perfect, exactly
@@gordianknot9595 Baloney. He did not. Only in your anti-view. And btw, I see you're back! Couldn't resist, could ya' -
Trolling around on here again on this faith channel, trying to convince the ignorant the Church isn't true - good luck. I'm surprised Saints Unscripted hasn't thrown you off -
@@zionmama150yep
@@gordianknot9595 right you know everything from all the puzzle pieces we don’t have and use the changed history to tape the puzzle together into a puzzle monster. Makes me wonder what you think of the anachronisms in Paul’s accounts found in the Bible.
I left the church when I was 16 and I tried many other religions and churches. I came back to the church at 45 because none of those others could explain parts of the Bible to me. I have also heard the spirit of God tell me directly it’s true. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Johnny.
Hehe. You got me. I guess he is one of the few that could put it in his pipe and smoke it. You made me laugh.
Some people are happier being fool
I love it!
Some people are happier because they have ongoing personal revelation from a Loving and merciful father in Heaven.
@@sunsolstarNonbelievers have their reward.
I'd be curious to hear what Johnny says about Christianity at large and the narrative of Jesus.
To the true Christian, Mormonism is not a Christian denomination. 🤷🏻♀️
he's probably turned to atheism, that's what happens to most of these guys. If they have a modicum of consistency they have to apply the same critical standard to all religions that they applied to the LDS Church, especially just general Christianity. Once they do, they have no where left to go but atheism. Many try agnosticism for a while, but soon realize that's just a cop out.
Unfortunately, if they are intellectually honest, eventually they realize that atheism/materialism is in fact just another human created religion, doesn't provide satisfactory answers to life's existential questions and cannot sustain the soul through life's inevitable let downs, betrayals and extreme hardships. Usually then they either finally break down and call out for God when their lives experience these extreme hardships (all lives do at some point) or they double down in their anger and vitriol and die miserable and alone in their perpetual hatred. I pray regularly that those who have fallen away eventually have experiences that humble them and nudge them back to the Lord.
@@techateachaThat’s your opinion. What makes a true Christian? Why are you the authority or judge of whether those who love Jesus and truly believe in Him, believe He is the Savior, and serve Him are Christians??
“By their fruits, ye shall know them.”
I was wondering if he would get into that. I've been on the fence several times after growing up in the church, but I haven't found a better answer yet other than to believe in nothing but science.
@@deboraholsen2504 not judging the Mormon believers. It’s the heretical teachings and beliefs. Seriously, why do you all need to have a Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith to learn how to believe, love and serve Jesus? Isn’t the Bible sufficient? Sola Scriptura, 2 Timothy 3:15-17.
Oh, it's that guy. The guy that left the church and, at the time, claimed to have no hard feelings, and he was all good.
Brigham Young was right, they leave the church, but can't leave the church alone!
No hard feelings. But I'm going to use my very large following to keep publishing videos about my former church in a negative light LOL
He spent years of his life, and probably many thousands of dollars to the church- how could anyone leave the church and just walk away without strong emotions after so many years of investment? It’s pretty unselfaware when I see members of the church make this argument.
It's a two way street. Depending on the family is someone chooses to leave the church they'll have family pressure them to come back. Lots of members who leave would not want to justify their position, but when prodded they feel they have no choice but to have to explain why. Inversely, when my dad investigated the church, he wanted to leave the methodist church in peace but his family pressured him to come back. He didn't want to stir the pot, but because of their consistent efforts he felt the need to bear his testimony. I think if both parties were respectful of one another's beliefs, these videos or ex-mormon content wouldn't exist
@katieedwards6444 That's fair, I can see that point of view, if someone resents paying tithing for example. But it sounds like he came out earlier saying he left with no hard feelings.
@@katieedwards6444I doubt that's what it is. He just wants to sound smart because he thinks he has "cracked" the Latter Day Saints.
2:04 an objective historical lens doesn't exist. I like how the leading danish science website videnskab dk discussed with experts about objectivity in history, and they said (paraphrasing):
History is like a court case. Your role is, just like a lawyer, to give the most convincing, and sometimes even the most appealing, arguments. The theory that wins the most people over gets in the history books.
The history itself isn't objective, but the people who make history their life goals, historians, typically ARE objective when averaged out across the industry. While one may say "this never happened", others may prove "this DID happen, here's the evidence, and your bias is that it makes your family lineage look bad". In that case, others in the field look at the reports, compare against their own evidences, and then, collectively, irons out the bumps of history over time. History is "objective" because the people that dedicate their lives to it have an incentive to NOT be biased, while the industry itself is set up in a way to not have blind faith in any one side. Your historical take is ALWAYS just as likely to be ridiculed as a Christians version of history... and THAT is attempted objectivity. Think of the Egyptian pyramids... for the longest time we claimed it was built ENTIRELY by slaves until Egyptian historians with a bias proved it was not. Of course it went through the wringer of critique before it was finally settled, among the historian community, that they were not, in fact, ONLY built by slaves.
This is unlike religious history which includes a lot of blind faith and almost a detestment of any sort of critique or review from other experts. It's a system designed to prevent further developments of historical claims... it just is what they say it is.
even tho i never had a faith crisis, this channel has helped me know the history of the church in a way that i would not know how to learn it or even have time for it. This channel is amazing, thank you saints unscripted, you guys are amazing!
Thank you for your support!!
I fully agree with you! I’m in the same boat.
Thanks man! Thanks for watching.
I testify that plain and precious things were taken out, and what were they? None other than the doctrine of Christ. In John 1:25, what did the pharisees ask him? They asked “Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?” Why do you think this is important? Conventional christianity would have you believe that the doctrine of Christ came about during the time of Christ. Tell me where is there evidence of this doctrine in the Old Testament? And if not found, why then did these Pharisees essentially ask “who gave you authority?” instead of asking “ what are you doing?” If the doctrine of Christ was never taught to ancient Israel, why was Jesus or any of his apostles never challenged by what they were doing in the sense of knowing where they were getting these teachings from? Paul, being born a Pharisee himself never had a problem teaching Christ to the early Christians who were Jew, why? Because they knew. And the Book of Mormon is evidence of that. That's why Nephi spoke about it with boldness. The book of Mormon is true, I testify that it is.
@@brettpinion4233
Your church literally banned black people from priesthood for over 100 years + the second leader of your church made Utah the only slave territory in the west + you guys literally believe native Americans descend from israelites + you guys believe that white skinned Israelites formed the original people of Moroni + Joseph Smith held multiple wives + Joseph Smith got his golden tables in a Language that doesn’t exist + the LDS church acts like many mega churches owning land, hotels, genealogy websites and etc.
David, you reacted to this is so much empathy, patience, and tact.
I'm failing to see the empathy, patience, and tact...
@@Compulsive-Elk7103agree, it gave me a headache at how defensive he was every 3 seconds.
I've watched several of Johnny's videos, on occasion. Usually it's his videos about public policy and politics that catch my eye. Very smart guy. I don't always agree with him, but he gives me much to think about, and I appreciate it.
Johnny did a video about why he left the Church before he did the video that was reviewed here, but it seemed sort of vague to me about exactly why he left. He mentioned that he had some psychological issues, particularly on his mission, and his description sounded a lot like a condition called religious scrupulosity. As I have had a similar experience with the Church, but thankfully found help THROUGH the Church rather than leaving it, I can definitely attest to the fact that he's probably had a very hard faith path to walk.
Yeah, I had something similar, but it was called religious trauma to me by my therapist. My therapist was agnostic, and I was able to get through all my issues without leaving the church. It can get very complicated when personal experiences compound on our beliefs which compounds on our knowledge and understanding of something like this.
@@starzilla2975you’re very faithful and brave to not leave! I totally understand why some leave the church, but so many think that we endorse things like SA, amongst other things. I read a comment that got hundreds of likes where someone said that our church supports it. That’s not only so far from the truth, but tries to link the few horribly bad apples with the good fruit. It’s a bandwagon so many hop on, defend, and die on. It’s sad and attempts to disgrace in a way the so many wonderful and faithful members. I’ve had an undeniable witness from the Spirit that this is the restored gospel and the fact that people claim to say they had a witness that this isn’t the true church, I would be very careful in how you discerned that as Satan comes as an angel of light. I know my experience was not from the “angel of light” but was truly from the Spirit.
If I were you I would ignore the bishop's advice not to read "anti-mormon" literature or articles! There is some of that, but there is an awful lot of truth out there too! If you study everything in the church history and can reconcile that with everything you've been told, that should lead you to the reality of the truth. I don't believe most members really know enough about the real beliefs of the church to make an honest belief in all of it. Don't be duped! Look deeply into what they believe before you committ your life and your family's life to it!
@@deborahyoung7941 honestly yes. But also, the most important thing is a witness from God whether it is true or not and I received a witness at a time when I was highly mentally unstable and about to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital. When I had the witness from the Spirit (while a friend was reading a book titled ‘The Heavens Are Open’ by Wendy M. Nelson), I literally thought I was condemned to Hell because I was in an ultra delusional state. It took me months before I realized that that was God giving me a witness from the Spirit about the restored gospel. More than anything though, I’m a follower of Christ. I’m not just a 100% listening to church content-no. I go through a lot of content on YT and IG (and some TikTok) from Christian content creators and I have learned a huge wealth of knowledge. Demons aren’t really talked about in the LDS church and I really really wish they were because they are constantly trying to find ways to tempt and open doors to ultimately attempt to steal, kill, and destroy us, like what almost happened to me with an eating disorder and almost dying. I’m so freaking glad that I didn’t die and that I pushed through the physical and mental disability I experienced from it for months and came out conqueror. I can’t thank God enough for giving me another chance to redeem myself, commit myself 100000% to Him each and every day and to better following the callings he’s personally been giving me through personal revelation. Thank you Jesus 😭❤️🔥
@@deborahyoung7941I find it odd when people say that members of a church don’t really know what they believe. I agree that not everyone can act as spokesman for a church. But a member is THE expert on what they believe. I can only tell you what I believe, and you won’t get a better representation then from me. I don’t pretend to know everything about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but as a member of the church I can tell you, I believe in a living passionate God. I know Jesus is my Savior, I know the Bible is the word of God and related humanities relationship with God, and the Book of Mormon is its companion in testifying of the mission of Jesus Christ. I know that we can only act in Gods authority with His permission, and that we MUST follow the path Jesus laid out for us. I know God is a God of miracles, and grants the sincere searcher with revelation, and gifts to bless others.
Josiah Stoal hired Joseph to dig for treasure and finally, Joseph convinced Mr. Stoal to give it up. That is all the treasure-seeking Joseph did and he vehemently reacted to that charge.
You should read more, he was involved in dozens of digs throughout the 1820s, even after he supposedly saw the first vision and moroni visited him.
@@dr33776 You should read more than what the anti-Mormon and anti-Joseph crowd wrote. Read the responses of Oliver and Joseph to such charges. If you can't find it, read Jonathan Neville's works-- he has done more research on primary sources than all others combined.
@@dr33776 Even if Joseph did treasure seeking that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. Recently, in Utah, there was a treasure hunt and someone found the 25,000 dollar price. People still use metal detectors today to search for treasure. Kids do geocaching. In Alaska, people still hunt for gold. It is all about how your frame it. The Gold Rush lead many people out west and up North, so Joseph participating in some treasure hunting isn't a deal breaker.
@@dr33776 JS married women, including some who were married to living men, in secret and attacked anyone who called him on it. I don't know why LDS find him to be such a trustworthy source when it comes to his own past.
@dr33776 also should be noted that originally it was the idea of other treasure seekers that took him as a companion that had heard of his accounts of theophany. He needed quick money to rescue his family from a financial disaster they were in.
A great response video that should be mandatory viewing along side Johnny’s explanation of our history. I wouldn’t say all of what he said is what we “actually” believe or I would share his biased opinions. I see all the same history and “actually” believe it differently than he does and there are huge reasons for that. It would be interesting for him to include why people believe differently than he does beyond Joseph Smith being charismatic, and creating something that sounds appealing and as his says “magical.” It goes way beyond that. Many of us for instance have tested God’s word found in these scriptures and found them to be absolutely true to their word and promises. Many of us for instance have seen and experienced the priesthood in action just like people did in the New Testament. Many of us know we don’t have to take Joseph’s word or story at face value and can receive our own divine witness of the restoration etc. The list goes on. I personally see the simplicity beyond the complexity because I know the history of Christ’s church and followers have human flaws. It’s always been that way, as shown throughout the Old and New Testament, so when I here about a church leader or historical figure making a mistake, Christ’s church isn’t a glass house that shatters when a stone is tossed at it. Anyway, this video shouldn’t be called what “Mormon’s Actually Believe” rather “What I (Johnny) Actually Believe Based on My Biased Interpretation and Conclusions” which are not the same conclusions of believing members who look at the same material, without the reductions and facts left out of this version of our story. Anyway, thank you for all the people behind SU. This is a fair and well presented response :)
Amen and amen
Excellent analysis and explanation! Thank you for being so thoughtful and honest and sincere.
lol
@@AvantNovismandatory by whom? No one should be mandating anything to anyone. Especially not a religious video
A mandatory suggestion for anyone who wants to understand all sides of a story.
In all intellectual pursuits, evidence is something that needs to be considered collectively. If people like their info lopsided they of course have the agency to accept it as so. If you don’t wish the suggestion, no one can force you to do anything. Change the channel.
Well done! Also, it's misleading when he says Joseph kept it a secret until 1823. He told his father the next day, and soon after, he also shared it with a Methodist preacher who consequently treated him with "great contempt". So by 1823, essentially everyone knew by word of mouth and rumor that Joseph had seen a vision. (my widows mite haha)
It was bugging me that he said that too! It's literally in his first vision account.
That's not true, he told people about the plates but he didn't mention the first vision before he wrote it down in 1832. Isn't it curious that no one (not even his family or anti mormons) knew about the first vision until many years after it allegedly happened?
@@dr33776 Thank you, it’s not explicit that he told his Father (that was about the plates in 1823), but according to his account, it's pretty clear that he didn't wait until 1823 or 1832, and was open about it. And the chance that he didn’t tell those closest to him would be very unlikely:
JS_H 1:21 “Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers...and...took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had...”
JS_H 1:22 “I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution…”
So yes, if that false claim was true, it would indeed be suspicious, hence why Johnny said it.
@jaredjensen3937 I mean, if you take as gospel his 1838 account, there's nothing that can dissuade you to consider that he retrofitted and exaggerated his visions as he saw fit. There are clear contradictions between his 1832 account and later versions of the first vision. Why would you give more weight to a late account than the first and only one written by his own hand? If he told the methodist preacher about it and suffered persecution, why was everyone unaware of the first vision? The first "anti mormon" book mormonism unvailed goes hard after the smiths, talking about seer stones, trasure digging, being lazy, drunks, cheaters, etc. yet not a single mention of the first vision. Not a single mention of a vision by Alexander Campbell. The unedited lucy mack smith biography does not mention a first vision. There was no religious excitement in palmyra in 1820. His family joined the Presbyterian church AFTER Alvin dies, so that messes the chronology as the revival would've taken place in 1824, when he was 18 and after moroni allegedly visited him in September 1823.
@@dr33776 wait, you’re assuming since the chronological ordering doesn’t add up that this makes everything invalid??? I know in your mind you think that makes this whole story false, but I’m a little shocked this would be the basis of your doubts. The idea that everything should have been documented from day one, in the meantime, the smith family had no idea what the outcome would be for many years after, makes a ton more sense why things weren’t well documented back then. If it was, I’d probably have way more doubts. That would seem way more suspicious…
Quite frankly I do think that learning the gospel would probably be hard for me to believe if someone just explained it to me, but that’s not why I started going to church. I was going through a hard time and I was confused. I prayed and received an answer for myself. I started going to church and I’ve never felt a joy inside like I do now.
People can say anything they want to me about what to believe, but that experience has changed me ❤ D&C 9:8-9
My brain is programmed for many things. Staying in the church is not one of them. It’s the thing that most helps me break undesirable programming. People act like we’re trapped in this cult, as if the gospel doesn’t grant some of the best tools for gaining the sort of freedom I’d consider worth having. And it’s not some kind of blissful ignorance.
say you're trapped without saying you're trapped
It can be counterintuitive but I need outside sources (not just myself) to judge me. Otherwise I don't feel progress and a way to become better. Freedom is progress, not following my own impulses and desires all the time. One thing good about the church as it provides me opportunity to socialize and interact with those outside of my circles, my economic status, even my ethnicity and culture. I've never found anything better.
@@WhiteArtsMagictrapped how? No debt? No addictions? Healthy? Most likely with a family and close friends? Where's the trap?
@@racealexander1660then try leaving. Have your mother burst into tears because you’re not wearing your garments. Lose a large sense of community because you’ve only ever made friends at church. Feel the guilt of disappointing your friends because they respect you and your opinion but must revere the church’s authority above all else. Be the sort of person they tip toe around because they’ve been taught to distrust people who leave for being “unfaithful” or “selfish” when so many of us leave because the truth may be hard, but it is the truth. You’re not trapped in the sense of chains. You’re trapped by the familial, social, and often mental cost of leaving. And you’ve often had a lifetime of lessons and talks and small social triggers programming you that leaning will cost you everything - even your very family and soul. But being free is better.
@@brooklynparkse those are good points but also true of any very tightknit group. Not exclusive to our church.
I come from a large, close family. My brother left a few years ago with his family. He gets treated the exact same as he did before. Granted, he doesn't try to tell us how smart and free he is and how blind we are to the 'real' truth. We just go about our lives, same as before. He comes to family church events when he can, etc. Same with my aunt and her family who left 30 years ago. She's one of my favorite people on the planet.
You also have to consider a different reality. Did you grow up in the church? And have left as an adult? I think you underestimate the blessings you (or others) received by living the gospel for the first 20-40 years of your life. You get taught all the morals, probably avoid addictions, learn hard work and self reliance, have a great friend and family network, the list goes on. And then when you don't believe it or need it anymore, you bow out.
Have you ever watched the come back podcast? There are a ton of people who left and got in really dark places by not living gospel principles. And their families in many cases were still there for them. And they were able to pull out with the help of the atonement.
Anyway, i really don't believe there's any freedom in leaving the commandments. It can seem that way at first. But very rarely are people's lives better in the long term after they leave. True freedom is found in living God's will. After all, he knows the best life we can have. That's all he wants for his children.
My question is always: if it was all fake, what was Joseph’s motivation?! What did he get from it all? It sounds like Johnny implied he was after power or fame or multiple wives, but looking closer at his actual day to day life- I think there are few if any who’d want to walk in his shoes. It was HARD. There were trials and challenges galore. He was never rich, or “popular” among the general public (quite the opposite), spent time in prison and was killed at a young age. What did he have to gain from it all if it was some complex fraud?! I just don’t see it. He persisted and endured despite trials that would have sent many of us packing.
I agree with you on this and then to put his family through all these hardships. One could say he was a narcissist, but historical records don't seem to point in this direction.
Why would someone want multiple wives anyways? I mean, isn't it better just to sleep with multiple women, leave and not make any commitments to them. Isn't that what so many 'rich' people are doing today?
Possible explanation: Generally, people who are slaves to sin don't benefit from their sin like they expected to. Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin all pursued power which ultimately led to absolutely miserable endings (and lives. Hitler was a mess towards the end, and Stalin lived in constant paranoia). Pursuing power and riches is poisonous, but most men pursue it anyway. Joseph Smith was at least positioned to be the one who had power, if it worked out. So, it can at least be a reasonable explanation.
@@juliahansen3773 The difference is those men considered themselves God and sinned by trying to throw the real God out of the equation altogether. They all failed miserably. Joseph Smith at his dying breath recognized God as his only hope. Because of that difference alone, Joseph Smiths succeeded while the others legacies died off completely. By their fruits ye shall know them. Jesus was also positioned with power and in his dying breath commended his life to God. His legacy continues today. So your explanation doesn't work. Whatever Joseph Smith wanted to happen in the world is still living today. And the world is less sinful because of it.
Muhammad also has had a lasting impact, and many Muslims will die for their belief. Neither of these two things is strong evidence that JS wasn't a false prophet.
As far as a less sinful world, that has been going on steadily since Christ's resurrection, and can absolutely not be attributed to Joseph Smith and Latter Day Saints. Human rights, hospitals, taking care of orphans, charities etc...all greatly predate Joseph Smith (and were started by Christians throughout history).
In fact, there were definitely some very QUESTIONABLE doctrines of Joseph Smith that the Latter Day Saints have abandoned - that's a big sign of bad fruit!
As a believing Latter Day Saint, I really love and appreciate your reaction to this.
Ah, the Mormon Church has no way to authenticate its history expect internally within the church itself. It makes the claim to restore the lost gospel when the gospel was never lost but has always been clearly proclaimed in the only Word of God, the Bible, not the Book of Mormon which in reality was nothing more but a book that heavily steals from the Old Testament.
I'm so so so so so grateful that your channel exists!
Thanks for your support!
It is pretty great :)
We're grateful you watch it!
I LOVE Saints Unscripted! 🔥
Thank you for all your awesome fair, informative content! I love how you don’t get nasty or angry towards the anti-folks.
You rock! ☀️💕
Thanks :)
@@SaintsUnscripted HI David where can I watch your video about saints moving to Utah that contradicts that Zion New Jerusalem in Missouri?
@@kuyalemsMissouri will still be the new Jerusalem in the millenium. Utah HQ will move out there.
@@DBPCINCWasn't that supposed to happen during Joes time?
I am so grateful you did this video. I saw that he posted this video, and I saw his original video. I have been studying church history for 15 years now, and it's incredibly frustrating to me to hear him misrepresent the gospel and its history. I feel more at peace hearing you along for the ride, because I was interested in what he had to say, but it makes it bearable with your meek, logical and humble commentary.
“We believe in the in the Bible to be the word of God so long as it is translated correctly.” The Old Testament is one of our standard works. I don’t see the jump in logic that finding the dead scrolls equals that the Old Testament is *perfectly* translated or that it would discount the validity of the Book of Mormon. In fact, there are variabilities within the Dead Sea scrolls that don’t perfectly match the Bible and some groups believe this disproves all of Christianity “lore”. The Book of Mormon would not exist without the Old Testament and both are cherished in the gospel. But again, logic alone is not enough to establish a relationship with Christ and understand his doctrine seeing as there is much controversy surrounding the Dead Sea scrolls as well.
Im sorry, where exactly did he misrepresent the gospel or history? I also am an armchair historian of Mormon history and while I did get hung up in one or two places, he’s generally correct from my research.
His video was more than fair towards the lds faith. If anything he was holding way back. That was a very kind video from someone who respects his family and loved ones who still belong to the church. Because the lds church has an endless supply of dirty laundry, he could have chose to air out in this video if he was trying to make the church look bad.
@@memahselfni So, I'm actually not the only one who has a problem with the way Johnny Harris explains history on his youtube channel. You can look up people critiquing his videos claiming he likes to rewrite world history. He says things that with even just a little more nuance make his conclusions deceptive. Like in this one, "America wasn't super religious," that's not true. They were extremely religious, but didn't necessarily have a chapel to attend due to cities being very underdeveloped. He mentions polygamy in ugly terms but doesn't mention any of the context behind it, or question why Joseph Smith, the supposed pedophilic sex addict who was vying for power and married other people's wives didn't have a single child with anyone else. The whole point of polygamy is to garner power in the community through children because it inexplicably ties people to him so that they can't escape. Especially if he shared children with other leaders wives... but he doesn't... and it's super weird. He's either cosmically lucky or... infertile, and he wasn't infertile. All you have to do is look at other examples of major polygamists to see the vast difference in behavior between them and Joseph Smith. Anyways, Harris is very moderate in his approach which makes him look like a proper authority source while he cherry picks the narrative and this isn't the only video he's done that with.
@@brettpinion4233 Yes, we worship a living Jesus who continues to speak to us through chosen authority.
I believe Christ continues revelation to his children. If Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever, then he would sent a prophet... like he's *always *done. He continue commanding prophets to write down scripture, as he's *always* done. Every generation scorns the idea of a prophet. Even Jerusalem thought they were "too modern" to have a prophet. Do you believe in the same Jesus who commanded and gave authority to specific men to write down his doctrine to preach the gospel? If you do, then we believe in the same Christ, if not, then Bernard P. Brockbank was correct.
When I read Mathew 7:15, and it says to beware of false prophets, I think of thousands of christian denomination pastors claiming they have the truth, and that other christian sects are wrong. They are "wolves" in sheep's clothing because they feign not being prophets but they act like they are, claiming their christian theology is superior to others... like the catholics, the mennonites, the protestants, the evangelicals all have their little prophets.
My prophet claims authority, he is the head of an extremely organized church with solid doctrine, and has even provided more scripture of *other* prophets. And that scripture you said was blasphemous, that scripture feels not only clearer, but more truthful to me.
Joseph didn't sell a lie. Christ commanded it. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Was christ mistaken? Do you know what perfection means? If a person was perfect... what would that do to them? Joseph said perfection means godliness so, unless you have a different definition, that one seems legit.
How ironic I'm listening to this a second time how ironic that Johnny says Joseph Smith found audience in doing so... From what I can see, Johnny has found audience in doing so.
Exactly, Johnny the prophet. leading those astray and giving validation with inaccurate facts.
Johnny the profit seeker, not Johnny the prophet seeker!
...He found his audience while working at VOX where he wasn't really allowed to speak on his beliefs. He posted that kind of content on HIS channel. Then, of course, he left VOX and started his own youtuber journalism channel which is when it began popping off. He isn't famous because he used to be in the church, that's just a quirky fact about him. He's famous because he does deep dives into global political conflict, completely removed of any sort of religious bias. In fact, when he posted that video his most popular videos were about mcdonalds ice cream machines, why people think the world is flat, and the man putin fears the most, with 7.3, 4.7, and 3.9 million views respectively. He also had almost 1.5 million subs too.. Point is, you'd either have to be stupid or be arguing in bad faith to say he got his fame from abandoning the church.
Great reaction video David! I agree with your summary of Johnny’s video. Great production value, clearly biased from his opinion on the church. Johnny has a habit of claiming objective perspective in his videos, but this one is especially easy to see that it’s not objective at all.
Thanks for your comment!
One can say this about the Bible, any belief... No real proof. It's called, Faith.
The Bible is like Santa Clause
You have a lot of evidence supporting it
1 my mom and dad say it’s true (they would never lie)
2 I had a wish list and Santa 🎅 gave me everything
3 I wrote a letter to Santa and he wrote back
4 I sat on Santa’s lap
5 I left a cookie and he ate it
6. Tons of Christmas songs about Santa, everyone knows it’s true
The Book of Mormon is like the Easter Bunny 🐰
1 A man’s claim
The Bible has something called MAPS
Manuscripts
Archeological evidence (and real cities)
Prophecies
Scientific Data
I am lds by the way, but the Bible takes almost no faith to believe, while the Book of Mormon definitely does
Exactly, typical enlightened atheist mindset, walk by faith, not by sight.
Not really, the Bible keeps being vindicated by history and archaeology. Aside from this we believe in Our Lord because of Israel's prophecies and the fulfillment he brought. That, and he established the church that still stands to this day
@@jackdaw6359agree. I love that the Bible tells all believers to test their faith with their brain, that God has, does, and will always provide evidence. That God always causes a public scene when he reveals himself and does not and will not require us to take one man's word for it. I love that the Bible advises us to not trust our feelings alone because they aren't facts. Blind faith, is unreasonable and not what is being asked of us. I LOVE that.
@@jackdaw6359Yes, and we can vindicate parts of little red riding hood because there ARE random houses in the forest where old grandmothers live, and who's daughter comes to visit... just because it's based on the reality around them doesn't make everything in it real. Unless you can provide the skeletal remains of an angel, or Jesus coming down from the heavens, it's all just historical literature tainted through the lense of a delusional religion. It's like saying 1+1=2 therefore God exists... yes 1+1 DOES equal 2, but your delusional conclusion to God ISNT real. You can find plenty of evidences that 1+1=2, but that evidence does not prove God just because you, erroneously, attributed to someone without any evidence in the first place. I can easily claim it also proves unicorns exist if I just claim everything was invented by unicorns.
I’m so grateful for this channel, I watched his video and had very similar thoughts. The fact that he portrays everything from a “more enlightened” position is ridiculous. I can understand coming to different conclusions, but his conclusion is not anymore enlightened or better than ours.
Mormonism isn't Christianity, stop. It's just a caricature of it, much like Gnosticism
"but his conclusion is not anymore enlightened or better than ours."
That is *pride* talking. "I was stupid, now I am smart!" And in a year or two or ten, suddenly he will be smarter yet.
@@baonemogomotsi7138 "Mormonism isn't Christianity"
What a relief! Knowing the answer to simple questions is a relief. Knowing to whom Jesus prayed, for starters.
@@thomasmaughan4798Typical Mormon coherence. Read your Bible, pray every day, and find God. Of course cultists wouldn't understand why but may The Lord help you.
@@baonemogomotsi7138 "Typical Mormon coherence. Read your Bible, pray every day, and find God."
For me the sequence was somewhat the other way round. I found God or more precisely he found me, then I found and read the Book of Mormon and it answered many questions, then I read the bible. I prayed as often as needed.
"may The Lord help you."
Thank you; he has.
43:43 regarding destroying the printing press - the context is needed here. Remember that Joseph Smith is just fresh from the experience of being victimized by mob violence and thrown in prison. Johnny said that 'Joseph was himself becoming militant'. This just isn't true. He was desperately trying to prevent mob violence, which is also why he came back across the river and gave himself up. He wanted to prevent the militia from turning violent on the Mormons.
I love you David... You are an authentic and Good person.
I was raised LDS
I married a catholic and we have 4 children
2 have stayed active and 2 are not active.. They are not in any way “brainwashed” to say the least .. and I love them all equally and have raised wonderful loving beautiful children who are kind intelligent humans .. do I wish they would all go to church .. of course I do but I know that everything will be ok because I raised them well.. And I know they love the Lord .. you can’t dwell on it .. only take it one day at a time and be a good Christ like example ..
People love blaming the prejudice of their parents onto the religion they followed, even though the prejudice is against the tenets of the religion itself.
Read Proverbs 23:31-33 and Leviticus 20:13. They debunk the Catholic cult. Also, 1 Corinthians 15:29 proves the Church of Jesus Christ true.
@@general-i15No. Nothing in the Torah proves that. You need to use the new testament to prove your faith. I can read Hebrew. Jesus is never mentioned in Tanakh. I'm sorry.
BEAUTIFUL explanation of simplicity beyond complexity......Push through it! Study, pray, humble ourselves, be willing to discover and hope and then it's revealed....Johnny absolutely stopped...I feel for him as well, but maybe sooner or later he will try and push through that complexity and see the simple beauty of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Plural marriage will be explained to us in about 30 seconds in the next life and we will go...oh, now I get it. The complexity is real, it's tough to overcome and the adversary is literally hell bent on messing with us and ruining our faith in JESUS CHRIST...because it's really all about growing our faith in him. Great video David!
David, thanks for your reaction video.
Also, thanks to Saints Unscripted over all these years. Your always giving me the assurance in these types of topics/videos that there's more than just what the critics say. That I can make an honest choice/argument for the restoration and this church and to stay.
Looking forward to meeting ya'll at the Gather Together Conference this Saturday!
Thanks for being here!!
See you there!
It's kind of hard to see someone's view of the outside of the milk jug if you've only always lived inside the milk jug.
I've lived outside the "milk jug" for many years and have never understood ex-mos and antis. I think most of their conclusions are toxic and not completely truthful. They tend to sensationalize things. At least the vocal ones on youtube.
@@robertkinnear9659I think that it’s usually the vocal ones you hear by definition 🤣. I think some people leave for sincere reasons. It’s sad to me, but we must always pray for them, and love them as we do ourselves.
@randygerdes
That's a silly take. So, you need to be a Muslim to see inside their jug and say their worldview may benefit or harm others? Do you need to adopt every single worldview in existance in order to determine if they're good or bad?
@@Mr-Thou I don't think you need to do that to determine if they're good or bad, but if you want to understand them, it would help. And, you don't have to understand unless you're curious. It's optional. So Harris is criticizing Mormons, but do Mormons understand why? Do they want to? Some great work done on "Strive to Understand, then to be Understood"...Stephen Covey, I think. A Mormon.
@randygerdes
Of course it would help you understand others if you've lived in their shoes. Thing is, this is not practical. What, you're going to live each year of your life in a different religion, community and/or country in the world? You might, and this might teach you a lot about others. However, this poses two major problems: 1. Not everyone has access to that luxury, even if they wanted to. The vast majority of people need to work hard to make a living, and that requires stability - not changing your habits and beliefs in revolutionary ways every so often. 2. Beliefs are not like clothes. If you sincerely believe in a Christian morality, but you start living according to an Atheist worldview, then you're betraying your own conscience. And this won't help you live in any side of any jug - it will just create unbearable cognitive dissonance.
You did great responding David! Gracious approach. Thank you for taking the time to do so 😊
Thanks for being here!
Come on you all! LDS is such horrific deception from Satan. How in the world do you fall for this nonsense?
You’re much more diplomatic than I would’ve been. I do take serious issue with the arrogance of so many people that leave church that claim to be so much more enlightened now that they’ve left, and that active, believing members are being fooled. Like you said, we’ve all been presented with the same information, but have come to a very different conclusion. I feel like I’ve returned to the simplicity side of all the complexities of the Gospel and it’s beautiful.
The Gold rush was completely founded on treasure seeking.
I don’t apologize for the restoration I own the history rejoice in its divine nature.
A few years ago, as I was preparing to serve a mission my cousin visited me at my house one night evening. After learning that I was going to serve a mission, she asked me a pretty compelling question that changed my entire life. "Do you know that the Church is true?" She said, "Do you know that the Book of Mormon is really true?" I was stunned. For the first time in my life, I dug deep into whether I really knew these things to be true or not. I grew up in the church, my dad served as a Stake President before and I've always known that I had to go on a mission. I've always been taught that these were true but I never really had a solid testimony of these things. My cousin, seeing at that time that I couldn't answer her straight, she said, "If you don't know these things yet, please hold your feet that you won't go on a mission because you will just go home." For me, that was a really pivotal moment in my life. So I dedicated a year for me to really know if these things I have been taught all my life.
In my search for the truth, I have found out through the Holy Ghost that these are really true. That the Book of Mormon is really indeed a word and a work of God. Joseph Smith was called to be a prophet. I know it and I could not deny it.
It is amazing to search for whether Joseph was a legitimate writer or storyteller or whether the Book of Mormon really does connect with the Bible or gives facts about Jesus Christ but I think the most important thing we can do or what matters the most is we will know if the Book of Mormon is true or not. If we believe in God, then we know that He listens and hears our prayers. We can ask. If God lives, He will answer.
Through the Book of Mormon, I have come much closer to Jesus Christ along with the Bible. I don't believe it is the work of the adversary himself to make such a thing only for you to have a stronger belief and faith in Jesus Christ. We can always ask, and we can always get answers from the right sources. I used to be a person where everything has to make sense and everything has to connect logically but these things are spiritual, and they can be answered spiritually because Jesus can.
❤
You found out through the holy ghost? Please describe what that is and how it can be demonstrated as anything other than your emotional bias working to confirm itself. The holy ghost isn't really an effective 'research' method.
I am a convert to the church. I , too, have become much closer to Christ through the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon. I was baptized Oct 20, 2023 and confirmed Oct. 22, 2023. I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I have great peace. I am learning more about the Bible than I ever did in my former church. I am grateful for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the restored gospel is healing my life. I am so grateful for a living prophet, and all that our Heavenly Father gives us; he gives us revelation, the opportunity for daily repentance, and the gift of the Covenant Path.
@@danbailey2964 Gal 5:16 “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” The Bible itself states that you should be guided by the Holy Ghost.
@@danbailey2964 Joh 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
You can make anything sound weird and twist the feeling surrounding something by adding weird music and tones like Johnny used. It would be fun to see how much it would change Johnny’s video if the music and sounds were changed to not be so weird
That also goes the same way with the way the church creates their own videos. One could argue that the church makes things seem more holy or spiritual than they really are. It's simply the nature of the beast
@@jonbaker476 "One could argue that the church makes things seem more holy or spiritual than they really are."
After a while it becomes conspicuous. ;-)
Active member here. I'm enjoying your channel and appreciate the approach you took with this video! A couple observations:
- He's actually correct in stating the Land Bountiful was likely in present-day Oman. The site isn't far from the border with Yemen.
- I don't know that I'd agree it was a mistake to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor, but I can understand the logic.
The destruction of the expositor is certainly a debatable point. No one knows what would have happened had no action taken place, or if there could have been a third choice. The facts are, that within a fortnight of the expositor being destroyed Hyrum and Joseph were dead.
Wonderful response video. Thanks for taking the time.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for taking the time to do this. It’s always needed in this online world of information.
Joseph was such a talented charlatan that he somehow convinced three witnesses that they saw and heard an angel presenting gold plates, fabricated metal plates that he was able to pass off as an ancient record to eight more, convinced Sidney Rigdon that he saw a vision, convinced Oliver Cowdery that John the Baptist and Peter, James and John conferred the priesthood on them, and most amazing he duped me some 143 years after his death that I had received a miraculous witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon that subsequently turned the entire direction of my life. Greatest con-man ever!
Also remember that the 3 heard the voice of God from the heavens declare they were true. As if the angel wasn't enough! Lol.
Loved your testimony
Conmen gonna con men.
@@chrisblanc663 Even if it takes fabricating a book that draws men and women to a deep relationship with Christ while conning them to believe an angel appeared to them and testified of its correct translation, being tarred and feathered, thrown into jail for months at a time, building multiple faithful communities, sending out multiple missionaries throughout the world, etc. Hey if that’s what it takes to con men it’s all worth it. Am I right?!
@@jerry_phillips hahaha🤣🤣
So many great points to consider in this response. It's not always easy to sort through these questions. I had never heard of the Hafen's talk around faith starting with simplicity, then moving to complexity, then back to simplicity but I have experienced that on some level myself. The word that comes to my mind from multiple stories in the scriptures is "wrestle" (Enos in the Book of Mormon, Jacob in the Old Testament). Faith is not always without a struggle. Complexity and not having a perfect knowledge can cause us to have to wrestle. Some of my most challenging times where I have had to wrestle with God to come to an understanding have been the most rewarding. I think the wrestle is necessary for increasing spiritual growth. In my experience, that wrestle has been the stepping stone for increased faith and a catalyst for coming to better understand who God is. Without some complexity I would have less reason to turn to God to find answers and to turn to him with more diligence and focus and a willingness to learn. In my experience he has provided clarity, peace and answers on difficult subjects but they have generally not come until I have that wrestle before him.
As someone who’s had a faith crisis and is very skeptical, I don’t need another ex Mormon to be the one to explain history. I’m sure he’s done his research, but I really don’t get people who have left for years and still decide to dedicate hours and days and even years to try to prove a religion wrong. In fact it just shows me that he has not healed in a lot of ways. I know a lot of ex Mormons who really are content living life and moving on. But I guess this is the content that brings money and views.
Of course he is miserable and money comes in to play. Your friends have not moved on I bet they are part of an ex mormon community and roam the internet bashing the church.
Exactly. I totally agree that he has not healed. I think the reason so many can’t let it go is because it was such a part of their lives. They probably had lots of family and leaders pressuring them a lot so that doesn’t really go away when they leave because they still feel like they have to prove something. Truthfully, I see this more as a people problem than a gospel problem, but that’s something they have to find themselves.
@@jabulani22shepo61 I don’t entirely agree with that. I have family who left the church around the time I was born. They do have their disagreements with the church and have been open about them but for the most part, they really aren’t obsessed with proving anyone wrong or talking about how bad it is. If anything, they actually recognize a lot of the good about church and have attended church meetings with us even when they were definitely out. They know that it has a lot of meaning to their loved ones and they recognize that meaning and embrace it. Maybe there’s a lot they don’t talk about but for the most part, I really don’t think they go to ex Mormon communities and talk trash. They live pretty busy and fulfilling lives and I would be really surprised if they actually spend time doing that.
I think I this is something I’ve observed: they claim the church is binary and dogmatic. But when people leave they leave and it’s allllll out. They still have the “dogmatic” in them. They are in fact being binary in their decisions. Not gonna lie. Im sure Johnny is a great guy but his eyes…his stare is really hollow and he doesn’t transmit any peace.
Because it’s false doctrine and we must tear it down.
I am in the process of converting to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (I am new and don't want to be disrespectful by saying LDS or Mormon, not sure what is and isn't okay). Since losing my husband to cancer at only 23, I haven't felt this strongly about anything beyond my children. Johnny, in him, I see a lot of hurt and anger and almost defiance? I feel sad for what he's going through as his pain is evident and my experience in the church has been joyful. Like he's almost angry at himself and the church. I would not be suprised if one day he comes back and also if he does not. I hope he finds peace regardless. As for me...I have not found such happiness outside of my husband and children. God is good! I am very grateful for the restored church. And also for this channel 💜.
My biggest issue with this and other videos critical of the church is the a/v style of this and other videos. It starts out with images of the SLC temple, the Choir, filtered with an old and worn-out film filter that is darkened. Very reminiscent to the Godmakers and it's dreary opening on the Washington D.C., depressing music and all. They make the movements of Joseph a caricature, like something from South Park. Actually I think when South Park did a spoof on Joseph Smith and the church, their animation movement was better. I also see some Monty Python influences with Jesus coming up through the clouds.
I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think Joseph Smith ever said anything about a Mother in Heaven. There is an old hymn by Eliza R. Snow that refers to a Mother in Heaven, but I'm fairly confident there is no first-hand statement by Joseph of any doctrine of a Mother in Heaven. Now we have adopted "Heavenly Parents" which I don't have a problem with, nor do I personally have a problem with a Mother in Heaven. Personally I believe in a Mother in Heaven. But the idea that not only is there a Mother in Heaven, but that there are Mother's in Heaven has never been taught by Joseph, Nor has the specific act necessary to create spirit children been stated or even inferred except by critics. Yet the culture continues to perpetuate some of this non-LDS doctrine. We're not even sure if there is a need to have a spirit body created because in speeches made by Joseph Smith, like the King Follett discourse and the Sermon in the Grove that occurred just weeks before he died, spirits and an intelligence are often used to mean the same thing. There is, has, and will continue to be all kinds of speculation on how per-mortal beings become spirits ready to be born on earth, but it's unlikely we will know until after we have the capacity to understand. Maybe when we are translated/resurrected, or maybe not until after the millennium.
What also strikes me odd is that many of these concepts are biblical. They may not be concepts of the Traditional Christian persuasion, but many are biblical.
Joseph, early on, was warned through both spiritual and physical (being shocked when trying to grab the plates) that there was only one purpose for the plates. Any straying from that purpose would result in the destruction of both Joseph's life and soul. After being prepared by Moroni for seven years, Joseph understood his charge very well. Why Johnny doesn't realize this, or maybe he does but won't admit it, baffles me. Maybe my mission, due to the veracious anti-Mormon communities, prepared me more fully for these questions. With everything he has criticized so far, much of it is very superficial and can be applied to any religion or scripture. Applying Johnny's method here, what kind of lawless kook could he make Jesus out to be?
I've read, listened to, and heard much more than what is being presented here, and like you, David, even with all the nuances, problems, perceived inconsistencies and anything else I still believe. And quite wholeheartedly, I might add. If one listens closely and applies it to the New Testament, there is amazing similarities. Jesus was accused of breaking laws, living outside the norm, being weird, and making claims that were blasphemous. Modern-day critics of the LSD Church and Joseph Smith sound so much like that Pharisees and Sadducees of Christ's day, it's difficult not to draw the parallel. Maybe that's why most LDS turn to non-belief and atheism rather than to other religions; because the other religions make even less sense, therefore cancel out an option.
Facts are relative to individual interpretation. Very few interpret the same facts the same way. If this were true there would be no political, environmental, religious, gaming platform, etc, etc, divisions. Since we know this isn't true then we know that facts are understood differently. I personally have spent over 30 years being necessarily logical because I have to know how to talk to computers being a computer programmer. While I try not to get insulted when people tell me they know the facts and that's why they can't continue to be a member, I'm like "Wait! I still believe! Are you calling me ignorant or stupid because you think you know or understand the facts better than I do?" I try to give everyone leeway based on individual and human shortcomings. The same should be given to early church leaders and other members. Also, it should be given to those who decide to leave or become less active. My only issue with individuals like Johnny is that can't leave the church alone after they decide it's not for them. I have a lot of family, and a child or two who have left the church. As much as I want them to come back, it's not up to me. But I am glad they respect us enough to shove their ideas in our face. This also makes me wonder why so many Like Johnny feel the need to preach the anti-gospel and demean people while doing it.
David, great job on the video. I'm not sure I would be as patient. I'm old enough to start seeing this garbage being recycled on younger people and it gets tiring. But I did have a faith crisis on my mission that caused me to search and study much harder than I was. It also made me pray and fast much more diligently. I still think it takes work because if your not going forward, you are going backwards. I see that in my family and with some of my children.
I love Saints Unscripted. So grateful you are here. Keep up the good work and sorry this was so long.
Unless you accept Johnny's syrup sweet voiced setup none of this makes any sense. BTW Joseph Smith Sr. Was deeply religious, holding devotionals twice a day that neighbors made a point to attend. He simply was not swayed by the preachers of the day.
And people hated him for being right. The church remains true. Joseph Smith was right!
Very ironic of you to say that his video makes no sense
@@Yeayaz Not at all... but then, I don't expect that you are very discerning. 😆
@@paulblack1799 you can believe in your made up story all you want, just don’t go about criticizing others for making no sense when you actually believe that stuff Joseph smith did
Rather than calling his video 'What Mormons Really Believe' it would have been more accurate to have called it 'What I have renegotiated myself into presenting as LDS beliefs and history in order to convince myself and others that my waning faith is actually a positive thing.'
Or calling it: "another video to get nearly an hours-worth of views from all pro and anti LDS youtube enjoyers because... $$$"
Or as Peter said “a dog returns to his own vomit” 2 Peter 2:22.
Look. I'm not sure if the start of his video is where this reaction started but can anyone living in this moment say that they know Joseph Smith well? If that is how he starts then the rest of his video probably continues down the same track. Even if he has read all of the Joseph Smith papers he is not in position to make this claim and him doing so leads to a very large eye roll for me right out of the gate. No man knows my history....
I think he meant, know of JS well. I grew up knowing the JS story, and have read biographies letters etc. I wouldn’t say I know him well, since I never met the man, but I have a pretty decent idea about him.
The church is true. People are messy . Good people everywhere are trying their best. Love the reaction.
Agreed.
what church?
Everyone is on their own spiritual journey. Just because you grew up in one faith path does not mean that you'll be on that faith path for the rest of your life. Spiritual Growth happens at its own pace for every individual. Choosing any faith as an adult is really important. I am pretty sure that as a historian an objective historical perspective does exist regarding the social, culture and historical facts of Joesph smith life e.g he was born, he had a leg operation, he had his 1st vision age 14 years old and he was murdered on etc etc. An objective historial perspective can't not be used to tell you if Mose talked to burning bush which was God, or if Jesus really heal a blind man, or if Peter heal the sick, or if the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was visited by the angel Jibril (Gabriel), or if Nephi really saw an angel, or if Siddhartha really got enlightened, or if Gurū Nānak age 30 disappear for 3 days and came back with divine revelation, or if a 14 year old boy saw Jesus and God while praying. Those experiences are beyond human history. But what these experience all have in common is that the divine gives revelation to one person at the time in a quiet spaces away from others. Spiritually is life long journey not a race.
Its so odd to when former members make it seem like the thing that is so cool and compelling about the restored church is the treasure, magic, wives and heavenly mother, and then declare it was discovering those obscure elements that shattered their testamony? It can't be both!
I would personally disagree with your statment. To me, it would be like you meeting a girl who's adventurous and exciting and is extremely energentic and bubbly, but then discover that all those endearing characteristics are only a part of her because she's a cocain addict, and she's been high every time you saw those endearing qualities. Suddenly, those endearing qualities take on a very different image than what you had originally seen and had been excited about.
That's a weird analogy but the point is that two things can be true at a time. At first, the things you loved and learned were great, but then as you learn more about those qualities, you realize that what seems like a good thing on the surface is actually a bad thing.
Or, if you're a woman, it would be like if you married a man who was incredibly fit and hard-working but then you discovered he was a drug addict, which was the only way he could accomplish what he had accomplished. What you originally found to be intriguing and endearing suddenly flips and becomes tainted and repulsive. You suddenly begin to question everything, even your own sense of judgment and expectations
Great reaction video! Reminds me of what Elder Holland says about how there will be times when we will be called to defend our faith and that is the time when we will need to be courageous and courteous. And you were both! And I will also add that you were very compassionate, exactly how a disciple of Jesus Christ would respond.
I also cringed every time you did when Johnny implied that those who choose to be faithful are brainwashed. I totally agree that we are all presented with the same information but just exercising our agency to come to conclusions that our differing degrees of faith brings us to. Thank you for this video! Keep up the great work!
The thing that urks me s that he keeps saying the book was written. No author, no matter how talented and knowledgeable, was able to create something as miraculous as The Book of Mormon. Let alone a farmer in the 1820s. This is why we need to rely on The Spirit when it comes to out belief. When we take it upon our own wisdom, as limited beings, we will be easily deceived.
You should take a few hours sometime and look at some of the great works of literature that were created in the same amount of time as the book of mormon. I was astounded at how many. I am not going to give examples as it just takes a few minutes to put in your own search criteria. I will say it is not uncommon for someone to write a great novel in a very short period of time.
Talk to Wayne May about what he has found and what he knows about the Book of Mormon
Fair Mormon has debunked Wayne may. Google it. His theories are interesting but not credible. Definitely not supported by the maxwell institute either.
I am glad you are reacting to his videos. Someone in my home just recently watched one of his videos. He is now agnostic/atheist.
this is very sad. he makes other people not to leave the church but make them not believe in Christ. i just remember KORIHOR.
His father was religious. He just didn't participate in local churches very often.
Shame Johnny Harris's video was so short. Mormonism on MythVision Podcast is much more detailed and in 27 videos about one hour each. An eye opener and worth watching.
Well done! I really enjoyed your reaction and response to this video.
Thank you so much!
Really appreciate you taking this on and reacting in a sensible fair way. Ultimately it relies on faith and His spirit to know the truth. Nothing can ever be proven, even the Bible. Thanks for all you do to encourage LDS members to continue in faith even with difficult questions that they don’t fully understand, with certain teachings and doctrines. To be patient and long suffering and that the answers will come by His source. We need more people like you to stand up and to stay strong to the most beautiful thing that the God has to offer which is the Restoration of His Church and Kingdom that is everlasting. A faith that requires something of you, your heart and by doing so not only do you want to change but you want to be more like Him, not only to be happy in this life but to truly know and love Him. It truly is a beautiful thing. I just went to Palmyra for the first time. I already knew in my heart it was true. I asked myself, “what would I gain?” “What would I learn that I didn’t already know?” And when I approached Joseph’s little humble home and the path leading to the Sacred Grove, I knew. There was no doubt. That’s all we need to know. Been following you for quite a while. Keep it up man. Thanks brother!
I appreciate both where you and Johnny come from. As a white, lds, grew up and gave my life to the church member for 27 years of my life, I feel connected to both of you. For myself, leaving the LDS church is one of the proudest decisions of my life, I was incredibly brave in the face of massive social pressure, and leaving has been the best thing for my life even though I was so terrified to do so. We are all on this journey together in one way or another. One step at a time, in our own unique individual way.
I'm sure you are aware, Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints did a reaction video to this guy's "Why I left the Mormon church" video. Have you addressed these things with him? I'm curious how that went/goes.
I have not spoken to Jeff about these Johnny Harris videos, no. Would definitely be an interesting conversation, though!
I'm going to write a book on what Johnny Harris really believes.
Well put 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I just hope he’s not related to Martin!
No one would buy it from you
😂😂😂
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 that's kinda the point
The complexity of the Book of Mormon is astounding. Going back and forth between narrative/commentator past/present. I want a count of how many references prophesy or reference something that happens later in the book successfully. For instance The reference to the jaredites in Omni and then Ether. Gadianton in Helaman and then Mormon and Moroni. There are a lot.
It is really not that complex. If it were then why was there so much confusion about when Christ would return. Lehi and his family knew almost to the day when He was going to return but the prophets in the middle did not. It is because it was all made up and then the beginning had to be made up again when the first 116 pages were lost. Joseph's peep stones were all apparently in the shop getting a tune up or he would have been able to see where those pages were or what had happened to them. They could also not work to re-translate those lost pages which is why it is such a big mess. He goes from story line to story line. Once he is done with a character he does not go back.
Well said about the witnesses of the BOM. I am an inactive member of the church however they spirit I felt reading and praying about the BOM and the church in general is undeniable. Thanks for the great work you do slam dunking over these ExMos. Keep up the great work!
Who penned the statements of the witnesses? Did the witnesses see with their physical eyes or spiritual eyes? That is an important distinction. One that his hidden and very misleading by the BOM.
Not if they are one
@longblaid
@@Longblaid.
They claim in no uncertain terms. I think Martin Harris, but could have been one of the other two, he liked to start conversations with people by saying, “hey kid, you see that tree stump over there?” The kid would say yes, and he would follow up with “as surely as you see that tree stump, I saw the Gold plates.” So he at least claimed to see with natural eyes, as well as with spiritual.
Do any of you guys know why some people say no one really saw the plates? I heard that on an interview with David Archuleta’s mom
So, this comes from the 3 and 8 witnesses. The 3 witnesses claim they were not shown the physical plates, but an angel showed them. The 8 witnesses did indeed testify that they saw the physical plates.
From the first moment of the video - Johnny misses Hebrews 12:2 - Jesus Christ is the 'author' and 'finisher' of our 'faith'. Not Joseph Smith Jr. That applies to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints . . .
Amen, and amen!
I've been waiting so long for a response to Johnny! You guys should really do his earlier videos too!
God told me 7 times the LDS church is true
This is coming from a former anti Mormon
Who? Plenty people in crazy psyc wards do same. Dies Lori Vallow talk God yikes
God and Jesus told me that the church is true over seven times.
God told me the opposite many times
@@jackdaw6359 tell me more
@@jackdaw6359I’m sorry. I learned that the BOM was true after I went on a “religion quest” at the age of almost 20. I had searched majority of other religions. I didnt search the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until last because I was from Utah and I thought I knew everything about them. Good luck!
I have compassion for him as you can genuinely see that he's grieving his once deeply felt beliefs. My heart aches for my brother. Hoping he can come out the other side, but if not, I know he is SO LOVED by His Saviour and Heavenly Father. They know how he is feeling. They understand his dilemmas and his conclusion.
The Kolob hymn is my favorite! More because I like the tune, I havent thought about the words much, but I hope they dont get rid of it
On my mission we had an investigator come to church for the first time and this hymn was sung that day. He read carefully every word and thought it super interesting... He did join the church and was a great member.
I lean toward the Kolob just being symbolic of Jesus Christ. Seems pretty simple and straight forward to me.
I firmly believe the mission field is the main reason people end up leaving the church, even moreso than the temple rituals or church history. The Brethren know this as well, which is why they've constantly been trying to keep RMs from going inactive, all the way back in President Hinckley's day. I myself have been diagnosed with PTSD, as well as a generic anxiety disorder, and it's all pretty much from my mission back in 2016. I got back right before they made the change that you could actually talk to your family on Pdays. It's strange how at the time I had convicned myself it was a good experience but then immediately started having really intense and bizaare psychological problems after getting back home. Looking back on it, I had the same issues while I was in the mission as well, but the lifestyle was so intense and I was constantly working that I was able to suppress my issues via becoming a workaholic and never giving myself tie to think about what I was feeling
A really cool detail left out in this video is in Joseph Smith’s translating was that he couldn’t even pronounce some of the words he would have to spell them out to the scribes
Harris’ video is very thoughtful. As a Catholic, I found it useful to watch to get a more balanced view of the church that I myself obviously do not participate in. Although he has some clear bitterness towards the LDS Church, he does point to clear historical fact that should be a point of challenge to all LDS members.
The disappointment ultimately is that he appears to now be agnostic towards any faith, which is a complete tragic loss. The LDS church could learn from testimony like Harris’.
David. Thank you for accurately explaining inaccuracies regarding Joseph Smith, portrayed by Johnny.
Actually started watching the video from this guy the other day and immediately discerned the manipulation of perception being used. It just seemed like another individual getting in on the post Mormon bandwagon and providing the same criticisms of truth claims with their own personal angst they experienced. Glad to see a response to this. It gets tiring of these individuals using the same old tactics in a new package. The production is good though and it will grab attention to many that are not up on the deep history and understanding. Nevertheless, this is kind of like multilevel marketing in which failed in the past so it is repackaged with new lipstick. CES letter was that very thing and is just old criticism’s cast in a new light. Oh yeah…really loved the comment “from our research”. As if there is this team of historical sleuths that are discovering something that real historians haven’t already provided. It is laughable but unfortunately sad. They have their reward I guess.
Did he lose a job so he needs to have a 501 c 3 organization where people contribute so that he can get a paycheck.
Understanding how these guys operate who preach and teach against the faith online is key. If you can get this, no one, no matter how "intellectual" or "reasoned" or "objective" will be able to lead you astray. (And the more education we have, the better.) The first red flag on Johnny Harris is the name he uses to describe Christ's modern church - in the very title of his video: "Mormon" Church. No, it's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And he likely knows that the restored Church of Jesus Christ does not identify by that old, tired nickname that obscures who we are - as well as Christ and His Church.
Is this the Church of Jesus Christ or is it not? That is the central question they do not want to directly answer - instead, they go in the side door of your mind in their effort to position things. So in the first place they try to go after the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, with the usual drumbeat list of attack points.
There's not one original thing in Harris's video. It is not just a "personal essay." He's out here trying to persuade, or he wouldn't be here. Let's not ignore the obvious.
And let us not fall for the idea that "objective" reasoning is the best approach to determining truth. Common-sense reasoning, yes. But who is the arbiter of what is "objective" and what is not? As for common sense, it tells me that God and Christ exist, that we are not alone in the universe. The idea that we are temporary organisms that just spring up and live and die and are never heard of again is absurd.
Having established that God must exist, then what is the role of Christ, is He God's Son? Is He the Christ? And from there, would they leave us as individuals alone in this hyper-confused modern world? And if Christ's church existed in the meridian of time, is it also on the earth today? Now there's reasoning...
Well said. This is clearly a hit piece like any other piece of modern anti-Christian propaganda.
Let us not forget that with such a title, he gets thousands of viewers. These thousands of viewers lead to the lining of he pockets. Huge motivation for producing such a video.
This guy is more of a profit seeker than a prophet seeker.
If I were this guy who produced this video, I’d be ashamed to meet God and Jesus one day. It’s bad enough to leave the Lord’s Church, and it’s worse to persecute it in one’s mind, but to spread these lies across the internet for all to see, young and old alike, is chilling to think about for me!!!!!!
My daughter, who had formerly desired to serve a mission, but never did because of circumstances, left the Church a few years ago, and also denies both God’s and the Savior’s existence. It broke my heart when she first told me four years ago!!
I can only imagine the agony that this young man’s parents suffer!
His persecution of the Church on the internet must feel like a never-ending cancer to them!! 😢💔
@@deboraholsen2504 I hope you were kinder to your daughter when she told you this than you are to Mr. Harris. I spend all day every day living with the pain that I hurt my children so much as they were growing up. We raised them in the church and they all have and are working through the pain we caused them by using shame as a way to correct behaviors. I am only speaking for myself in this and it is not directed at the mormon church. I know that is the wrong term but I was raised mormon and my children were raised mormon. I was raised with shame as a tool to keep me in line and I continued that abusive method when raising my children. So sad for me to have to look back at what I put them through. Since leaving full and active membership in the church and just using the example of Christ rather than the teachings of men I have been able to see what is so wrong about that method. It is so freeing to realize that the only real commandment is to love God and to love our neighbors and to really study what Christ actually taught without the lens of mormon teachings to blur the view. Good luck with navigating the path as a parent as it is a tough job and I regret so many mistakes I made with our children.
Haven't watched this yet, but kudos to SU for such a rapid response!
Even with Johnny's sarcastic tone while telling us about the gospel, I feel the Holy Spirit testify of its truthfulness. ❤
Me too!
You've been mislead. The Bible is all you need. Anything that came from Joseph Smith are lies.
HI David where can I watch your video about saints moving to Utah that contradicts that Zion New Jerusalem in Missouri?
My great conclusion is: Johnny Harris has an imperfect view and inaccurate video about an imperfect man named Joseph Smith.
One thing that, perhaps, Johnny doesn't realize is that one of the largest sources he uses to support his views of Joseph Smith and our history is Richard Bushman, a faithful Latter-day Saint.
Throughout history, we have seen what happens when society deems a group an "other." Johnny's video, which has over a million views, is just one of many things that contributes to larger society viewing members of our church as an "other." Tell the story of our church, please, but keep out your attempts to make us look strange or weird or cult-like.
I just love how people who have no testimony leave the church but do it being a know-it-all. Suddenly they're experts in the field they no longer support. Yup. Makes perfect sense to me🤦. Funny thing.... one day Joseph Smith will be made known to the world and all the "experts" in the world who have been deceived by the devil will have to answer to God.
God called Joseph Smith to give up his life to restore his church so I wouldn't dare challenge him that way and expect to walk away without consequences.
Yeah, that bugs me too. I know the argument people make is that if you’re in the church, then you’re biased, so it doesn’t mean you have real research. I actually think the opposite. It’s always baffled me that people don’t like church apologists because I feel like they do actually have more access and resources than people who don’t believe because the church is literally a part of a lot of people’s FAMILY history so they have documents filled with various testimonies, revelations, and 1st hand accounts of what was going on in the church at the time. I’m not sure why people tend to trust people who leave. Maybe it’s their bias that if a someone is skeptical about a religion they were already skeptical about then their bias is confirmed.
@@HalE14you have zero proof, be an adult and accept reality
You church folks are crazy, too bad yall all going to eternal hell
@@HalE14 I agree... People use these kinds of videos to justify their already lacking faith. For those who hold strong to the faith aren't interested in their need for attention or at least we shouldn't be. Sadly however, out of curiosity...some get carried away and end up being another "expert". We're supposed to doubt our doubts before we doubt our faith🤷. It's like those who hate the book of Mormon but have never picked it up or open one page but already know everything in it, calling themselves "expert's". I never thought I would live to see so much crazy but here we are..... 😭
Why do you assume he has no testimony? He dedicated 2 years of his life to being a missionary. It's getting really old to see some other members judging and feeling above anyone who doesn't beleive as they do. We learn in church to love others but then people come and make these kind of comments. Plus, why do you care what he believes now. Insecure people who aren't confident in who they are or their own beliefs feel the need to put others down.
This kind of this like this Johnny's video happens so often on RUclips. People think they can get to the bottom of everything in a short time because of google, without even looking for arguments for the possibility they aren't considering, and they make a cinematic video about it claiming they have the absolute knowledge and thinking they are both Neil Degrasse Tyson and Morgan Freeman at the same time.
Great job in critiquing Johnny's video. I watched his video also and totally agree with your conclusions. You also caught some fine details that I missed. I also love how understanding and kind you are towards folks like Johnny who are in the middle of a faith crisis. That's a great example of how we all should treat those who have left our faith. It compounds the problem though when they become very vocal about it, sharing their opinions in the public arena, given that they should be exercising more caution about 'certainty' when it comes to very controversial subjects such as this one. I would think that would also complicate things if and when folks like Johnny do decide to return to their faith, or at least make it harder for them to return. Of course, we always welcome folks back wholeheartedly, no matter their history of what they did while away on their own personal faith journey.
Critics of the church seem to almost universally be under the false assumption that 'once church members fully investigate the 'true' history of their faith they would for sure leave'. They just don't seem to be able to comprehend that many, many church members have done this and have actually become stronger in their faith as a result, as I have done, and that there are actually plausible answers/solutions to all of these types of questions. Some of the answers may be tentative and not 100% certain, but there is plausibility at the very least. Also, it's often true that 2 different people can look at the same sets of data and come to opposite conclusions, with each answer being plausible.
It reminds me of putting together a puzzle that we only have some of the pieces for and making a monster with the puzzle pieces rather than putting together the pieces in the order and way they are supposed to go.
I saw that video and was kind of surprised! I thought it was going to be a lot of anti-church stuff. While not all the details were accurate, it was a very beautiful video, even with the biases. You could really tell that the church meant a lot to Johnny at one point.
I’m not seeing that at all but you are entitled to your opinion of course. This is the kind of rhetoric that LDS scholars have been having ro debunk for years. Fair LDS for example handles all these arguments easily.
The part I couldn't stand was when he "summarized" Joseph's life into a reduced comparison of abusive cult leaders. Would you do that with Abraham, Jacob, or King David? By pruning a story down to three or four points, you can make it sound just like almost any other story you choose. It's even a meme format. The harm is when the audience doesn't know much about one of the stories, and fills in the blanks with the other one. In Joseph Smith's case, the similarity ends with those few points.
Your sincere, intelligent efforts producing content for this channel have brought me many insights. God bless all of you for spreading light and truth. It also gives me hope for the future to see young people with such wisdom! Thank you all!
Our pleasure!
Translation: 'Your sincere, intelligent efforts producing content for this channel have allowed me to confirm my bias toward the belief that I chose to have, while allowing me to excuse myself from doing any real critical analysis of the claims of my religion.'
Where can I find something about Don Bradley's new presented research? Sounds interesting! (Catrn I read some tidbits about it without having to purchase the three-part work?)
I believe he presented this research at the recent FAIR Latter-day Saints conference from earlier this month. You miiight be able to access it on their website (if not now, hopefully soon).
It’s one thing to leave the Church, it’s another to try to get others to join you. Harris’s position is similar to a guy named Korihor:
“Behold, I know that thou believest, but thou art possessed with a lying spirit, and ye have put off the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God.”
The funny and sad thing is all modern day defectors are described to a T in the BOM. Whether it's korihor or sherem or the amlicites or the great and spacious building...it's all there, and yet they use the exact same arguments to justify their rebellion against God.
“… for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.”
that kid who played young Joseph Smith was my daughter's boyfriend all through high school