Finally someone else to talk about Our Flag Means Death with! I was wondering about the funko pop back there. I do agree that Nora works best as a plot device, not that she can't work on her own but that is where writers are most comfortable/proficient at using her.
Good to know, as I someday might take the plunge into publishing! Also, did you think we would not make it to the end of the video? To be fair, we do live in a world where people lack attention spa~ …………………………………………………………………………………………..
So what it boils down to is BTAS is the best version of Misters Freeze and Nora. I will say my second favorite was Gotham. I like that show. I enjoyed it. The worst version once more like everything is the worst version in this series is Batwoman. Which I keep saying it is a same. Batwoman is a great characters but the CW show is horrible horrible writing.It just gets worse and worse as it goes along. And that is my issue with the show. Terrible writing. As goofy and disliked Batman and robin movie is. It basically did the animated story which I did like. The comic stuff is meh. Compared to other versions I don't feel it at all. I feel like they took away the sympathetic. of both characters kinda. It was not horrible. Some parts came very interesting ideas. But over all other versions I said above are better. Harley quinn which is a fun shows and great comedy, they can do what they want cause it's ment to be a comedy else world. I really enjoyed the video. TY
I always prefer the version in wich Nora and Victor are truely in love. I like the tragic side it add to the story and beside, I think we already have enough evil bad guys and abusive partners in comic to be ok with something a bit different.
Agreed, Torlik. I think the Joker and Harley have the abusive relationship covered. Ever since Heart of Ice in BtAS, Mr. Freeze has been a character that stands for something not sick and demented like the Joker and Harley Quinn's dynamic, but something beautifully tragic. Two people truly in love, a stroke of random chance threatening to tear them away from each other, and the cruelty of those who care only about their pockets nearly sealing the deal. A man who genuinely loves his wife and is genuinely good to her, becoming obsessed to the point that he'll do *anything.* "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" as they say. Obviously he's not meant to be 100% in the right. Otherwise why would he be the *villain.* But not all men in fiction who love a woman should be depicted as controlling that woman and taking away her free will. Some is just fine, like I said, we have the Joker. He's not meant to be sympathetic. Let Mister Freeze be a good, loving husband, driven mad by loss. But who can at least be happy enough, knowing that she's okay. Even if she's not with him.
I actually like the Arkham version a lot, for it covers everything you said. And I’m the end he and Nora spent a few days together instead of chasing a cure because that’s want she wanted. It’s heartbreaking, and really sweet. Him being the best boss fight in the entire series helps, too 😂
Tbh I personally adore their relationship when depicted that she consented to being frozen so advancement in medicine could be made, and too many writers try to go the whole ‘she didn’t want this’ route. I find it the most compelling when her and her husband’s arc end because he realized that he destroyed their possible future of normalcy and they agree to pass on together, and it breaks my heart a little
I really dislike how they try to constantly turn her into a victim in an attempt to deconstruct their relationship which just ruins freezes character and falls into a certain cliche about wives in fictional media. If it ain't broke dont fix it and every time they fumble with it it falls apart (except Arkham maybe)
I agree. I think the most interesting version of Nora is the DCAU Comics version. There's something very charming every time a DCU Civilian is like "actually no, I'm with the supervillain" in a completely normal and non-goon way. Plus like, there's a lot of Bonnie and Clydes and a lot of Girl In The Tube stories. There's not really many Bonnie in the Tube stories. The most interesting way to do Nora is that she's wide awake, alive, and has been rooting _against_ Batman the entire time.
What I like is when she agrees, but once she's seen what happened to victor, she's content to just live the remains of their short lives together, where her consenting and being cured wasn't her wanting to live longer for herself, it's to have a life with Victor. Where she had already come to terms with the fact that she would most likely die, she had come to terms with death, but She still wanted to live with victor. But once they both were going to die soon, she'd rather spend a day with victor than 40 years without him.
I think Arkham Knight balanced these two very well, with Nora consenting to it, but realizing she didn't want it after seeing Victor lose himself, then the two deciding to pass on together.
So in BTAS the person who cause Mr. Freeze turn to villainy is named Ferris Boyle… Ferris = Fahrenheit and (the more obvious) Boyle = boil. They were definitely opposites. Freeze and Boyle (boil). BTAS always has a little hidden gem for when you get older.
@@HBHaga First Mark Hamill BATS _aired._ I believe he had already voiced the Joker in several episodes prior to voicing this one in the production order. Aired later in the series of course. That said, Mark was already a prolific voice actor having started in the early 70's. Warner Brothers had (has) a stable of go-to voice actors, and most of them do multiple characters. It's often easier to hand a script to someone who's already in the studio to do a few lines for another episode than call in someone special just to do a couple lines. That said, BATS was not Mark's first foray into the DC universe. The year before (in 1991) he played The Trickster in that year's live action version of _The Flash._ An underrated show.
@@tarmaque Nope, according to some of his talks, Hamill did Ferris Boyle first and then came back to do the Joker. Here's one of them ruclips.net/video/mn4WSR-aZtU/видео.html
I don't have a problem with them always being connected. It's an interesting part of their charcters. Without Nora Mr. Freeze is a knock off captain cold and without Mr. Freeze Nora is just some woman frozen in stasis. They can't really work without each other.
It's like being type casted but the opposite. . You could exist as Mr Freeze without Nora but it's only freeze in name. . Is the word I look for trope? . Is there a theory for tropes being connected to universal story telling. Ie there will always be a women in stasis with her love looking to bring her back as time passes. . Could this not be Rick? Scrooge? Dead wife
"Man motivated by dead woman" is a trope. Not enough "Women in stasis" for that to be a trope Snow White Sleeping Beauty Elsa in 'Frozen II' "Girlfriend in prison" is that a trope? "Kidnapped girlfriend" That's a trope.
But I think that is part of the temptation of separating Mr. and Mrs. Freeze. People love to separate inseparable things to see what happens, it's human nature.
That's essentially the MCU's guiding principle. Iron Man before the MCU was at best a B-lister and you could honestly say he was more a C-lister. Doesn't help in the comics at the time, he was a MAJOR asshole due to Civil War which DESTROYED his character. Now he's one of the biggest SuperHeroes ever and a definite A-Lister
The Nora I always imagine is the warmest person. That's why Victor was so willing to do everything for her, because she is such a wonderful and amazing person that he fell in love with. And the story should always end with Nora melting Victors heart after he revived her, regardless of them dying shortly after or has happier ending. She should always be the exact opposite of what Victor turned into.
@@aurahoneydew9607 I don't think Freeze ever takes pleasure in his evil deeds, they are always a means to bringing back Nora. He wouldn't hesitate to do evil but he doesn't take pleasure in the acts.
@@christopherironmonkey4144 oh he does in the comic. Quite a lot actually. You get a Dio Brando thing from all the Batman villains there. Where they're jerk but they're both interesting and fabulous so you just love it. GCPD and no man's land even starts with him being more sadistic and hostile.
@@aurahoneydew9607 True even Arnold seemed to have fun at times. I think he is at his best though when he is a mirror to batman, they are both men driven to extremes by grief. Their antics may be thrilling but at their core they are big sad boi's.
The idea of a villainous Nora, Especially one who takes over the Mr. freeze title is really interesting. Just imagine a comic where Nora is successfully cured, and is a totally normal person, but seeing freeze like this, a half frozen barely alive shell of his former self, drives her to do the same he did for her. Imagine her going through the same motions, stealing experimental machines and the like to cure freeze, and having freeze watch, seeing exactly what he was in Nora and realizing this isn't what he wants, he doesn't want her to be obsessively trying to fix him. He could start out helping her, either out of a desire to live with Nora, to satisfy her obsession, or even just to be normal himself, but over time, perhaps with batman's help and advice, he confronts Nora. He tells her that he doesn't want her to waste what time they have together like this, that all he wants is to spend what little time they have together together, not wasting it trying to draw it out further. Perhaps Nora listens, spending time with Freeze until his inevitably death, before she moves on. Maybe she doesn't, continuing to try make more time and in the process, looses what time they did have. What would be really painful is Wayne enterprises making a cure for Nora, her rushing back to Freeze, only to see him take his last breath, just too late to stop it. I could imagine subsequent stories where she's just lashing out in anger, anger at the world for this cruel life, anger at the scientists for not making a cure fast enough, but truly, anger at herself for wasting the time they had, for not listening to him. Maybe Batman could help her through this rage, helping her come to terms with it and what it's truly about. Maybe she peacefully moves on, tries to return to a regular life. Or maybe you could have her go through an arc where she goes through the 5 stages of grief, with bargaining being her committing crimes for Ra's Al Ghul in exchange for use of the Lazarus pit. Here, bargaining would be more literal, her trying to bring back freeze through various bargains, but she mentally could be what the bargaining stage is, stuck in the past about how she messed up and hyper focused on everything being perfect. Yet again, a confrontation with batman could once again lead to him helping her move on, at least to the next stage of grief, with him talking about how Victor wouldn't have wanted Nora to do these things for him, and how what she did then is already done, but she still needs to move forwards with her life. Here, with depression, it would be like Freeze was before, cold and distant. Rather than Fighting to some goal, She would merely be fighting as Batman sought her out after last time. She'd attack whenever he tried to approach, but otherwise would just hide away from the world, probably in the arctic once more. Eventually, after repeated attempts to get to her, batman eventually convinces her to let him in. Cue them working through this grief, not only that Freeze is gone, but that she wasted time, both hers and his, for some stupid cure she still keeps around as a painful reminder, unable to get rid of it due to what it meant. This little arc could end with her shattering the cure, signifying her no longer being guilt and grief ridden. From there, Nora could be a regular person occasionally forced back into the suit for various reasons, or perhaps even a minor hero, occasionally helping when needed or requested, but otherwise living a regular life
It could go further and say she teams up with Dr. Caitlin Snow or Killer Frost or Frost, and works to treat both of themselves. Maybe even develop the true cure for Nora's original illness, instead of making Lex's cure the only one. Then memorialize the Nora cure to Victor.
Wow, this is one beefy video, and I'm not even surprised that every version of Nora Fries ends up in a tragic and bittersweet relationship... Except Harley animated, that's sad for everyone else. I haven't yet watched Our Flag Means Death yet, but I love Taika Waititi, and I wanna be him when I grow up.
Man, i never saw that end of the dcau comics, with her trying to save Victor. that is probably the most interesting idea to what do with a saved Nora, both cute and sad. The Arkhan Knight version is cool too. A lot of the other ones try way too hard to make it tragic or dark, or deconstruct it, and just make it weird. Also thanks Sasha for defending Batman and Robin, i love this cheesy and dumb movie a lot!
I still want a story where Nora Fries has the PhD and wants Victor to freeze her, but he's just an engineer and messes up the process. Or thinks he did. And so she's the actual Dr. Fries, and "Mr. Freeze" is a pet name for him.
Probably better as some variant of the Batman Animated Series version, where her condition is the result of a third party, which motivates Victor's desire for revenge. If he can't save her, he feels the absolute bare minimum he can do is avenge her. Maybe add in a desire to make sure said third party can't make anyone else go through what he went through. Granted, I haven't watched or read too many different origin stories. I remember the 2000s Batman cartoon where Freeze was already a criminal. If I remember correctly, he was trying to escape either the cops or Batman when a homeless guy got in the way and made him crash, resulting in his condition. I didn't like that one too much.
@@jaimeruiz7837 youve fallen into the Sober Barney Mistake. If you remove a character's gimmick and reason for being included in a story, but do not replace it with a sufficiently good enough gimmick/reason to warrant them sticking around, then you will end up with the character either never appearing again, or reverting to their original gimmick/reason
@@honeyham6788 hey dude there's several spin offs of multiple characters. That's fine. There's a version of Tim Drake that turns him into a mini joker and that has only happened to one of him. It's OK to have just one story where the two gets a happy ending with their arcs resolved and they leave. Even in the same story, characters don't have to be constantly recurring.
I think there's a really interesting idea in a cured Nora putting Mr. Freeze on the an anti-heroic or even heroic road. The story doesn't have to end even though that particular arc does. Giving Nora a compelling and interesting characterization makes it so that the Freezes don't have to have an finite story. Ultimately, outside of Joker, I think every Batman villain has a very clear path to redemption and that's what makes Batman's villains so interesting.
That's what I was thinking. Nora could be the person in the cave so to speak while freeze is an anti-hero. It's really simple to execute too. Freeze feels bad about the consequences of some of his crimes and realizes he could do a lot of good for Gotham. Nora supports the idea and wants to help out.
I don't know if it's just because my first intro to Nora and Mr Freeze was the DCAU so I'm hung up on the nostalgia or if it's the hopeless romantic in me, but I've always been more here for the 'they actually truly deeply love each other but circumstances keep them apart', like as much as I ADORED Victor in The Batman (loved that show so much though I do still have questions about their Joker design sometimes, like by the end I just accepted it but it was... odd. There were choices made.), I've always kinda preferred the idea of Victor as a man just desperate to save and protect the woman who loves him and that he loves in return, a Victor who is willing to let her go but not willing to let her die and a Nora who loves him and maybe even has to turn around and save Victor in return in some fashion. I started Our Flag a couple days ago but between being a busy busy person and also having the 'new show' brain FREEZEs (lol) I haven't gotten more than a couple minutes in.
Mr Freeze was basically like Polka Dot Man back in the 90s. He was a nobody character that Batman TAS fleshed out with the introduction of Nora and the tragic back story.
I'm gonna use this opportunity to shout out one of my favourite portrayals of Nora Fries from the video game Batman: Arkham Knight. After she is abducted by the Arkham Knight's men Nora's cryopod is damaged, after promising Victor he'll find her Batman tracks Nora down where she reveals that she has been conscious while frozen all these years and is saddened by what her husband has become. After Freeze and Batman team up against the Arkham Knight's men again all of his equipment and research is destroyed in the process, leading to this exchange. Freeze: "I don't want you to die Nora" Nora: "Then let me live! Please." Freeze: "We won't have much time, maybe days..." Nora: "Time never was on our side Victor." Freeze then turns off his life support and rides off on a boat with Nora to spend their final days together, with Alfred offering to track them but Batman refusing because "We won't see them again." With the lasting legacy of the rain being replaced with snow for the rest of the game. Arkham Knight's writing wasn't the best but this mission caught me off guard the first time I played it and is maybe one of my favourite moments involving Freeze and Nora since Heart of Ice, nearly bringing me to tears. EDIT: Ah damn I see it's in this video I thought I was slick bringing it up lol. That's good though because more people need to know about her appearance in Arkham Knight.
@@gvirusqueen3559 Arkham Asylum single handedly got me into DC as a kid, that game is honestly a fantastic starting point with all the character bios including for characters not featured in the game like Ratcatcher or Humpty Dumpty. Those games are still my default Batman as a result.
Anyone find it funny that Sasha dressed like Killer Frost for a video on Mr. Freeze? Next thing you know she’s gonna dress as Amy Rose for a video on Metal Sonic LOL.
I'd like to see a version where Nora is working on her own cure and Victor is initially just a supportive husband doing everything he can to encourage her and keep her working, keep her hoping she (and possibly her team) can create a cure while also secretly preparing for the worse with his cryogenics. When the writing is finally on the wall, that a cure is possible but years away and Nora will be long gone by then they both decide to take the gamble of freezing her, since Victor doesn't know if he can actually revive her. But they got this far on hope and perseverance, and she believes in him as much as he believes in her. Cue popsicle Nora. Initially, that is the plan. Victor works on reviving tech, Nora's people continue the work on a cure. It's a waiting game, but now getting her thawed is on him so everything now depends on his success. (For fun, lets say his cryogenics is also for human deep space exploration, hence the old space suit design of his later villain armor). Then stuff goes wrong. Funding is cut, first for the cure, now putting it not years away but decades. Then funding is cut as interest in human exploration decreases with the rise in advanced robotics, meaning he possibly now can't even develop the thawing process to a safe level until he is too old to even have a life with Nora. So he gives up. He can't save her, he can't move on because all the work was for them to have a life together. So he decides to freeze himself and wait with her. That way, there is still hope for their dream. That is where things go even more wrong and his attempt to freeze himself is interrupted, leaving him as Mister Freeze. Now all he has left is saving Nora so she can have the life they wanted, and screw anyone getting in the way of or endangering that goal. At some point you could even thaw out Nora, who basically just took a nap, woke up cured, and with her husband a monster. Then their goal becomes curing Victor, because they were always ride or die. It was always their life, their dream, and they've come too far and endured too much to ever give up. The world, in their view, owes them their happiness and should just get out of their way or they will force it to. Could even add some ability to Nora when she thaws, like being able to absorb cold by touch. Meaning she is now literally toxic to Victor, as if they kiss for more than a few seconds, or just hold hands too long, he would literally die of heatstroke. So again, the world denies them, but they refuse to let it stop them. I'd enjoy a villain power couple whose goal is literally "lose our powers and just be normal people somewhere the wold can't keep getting between us", but their attitude is also that the world has thwared them at every point so they will steal, coerce, and hurt people to reach their goal. I'd even have them be against killing (hence the cold weapons), as they primarily disable people rather than kill them (at least without sustained application of cold). Giving people hypothermia also means the hero has to save those people, while they get away.
I love the ending that Victor and Nora are given in Arkham Knight. The delivery of "I won't let you die, Nora!" "Then let me live, Victor!" just feels so powerful to me.
I cheer at the sweet relationship of ride & die Victor and Nora but also laughed out loud at angry Nora screaming at her husband about his legitimately terrible decisions/ starting a fling immediately after being cured.
While I haven't watched the foppish pirate series in question (yet), my favorite versions of Nora are where it is a wistful tragic, but ultimately healthy and loving relationship. Basically the original DCAU and extended comics version. There's always so much melodrama in comics in order to get a plotline talked about, it is honestly refreshing to see a relationship where love, loss, and even letting someone go is meant out of earnest and honest respect for each other. Victor desperate to save her, but believing that Nora wouldn't accept him once he finally succeeds (and Victor often being wrong about that) is touching. I realize the reason they stray away from it is because it gives them a concrete arc that has an end, and it's harder to justify him becoming a villain again. Nora has agency in those iterations, we just don't need to be told what it is. She trusts her husband, who ends up going too far without her.
The fact that in all these years we haven't seen one instance of a Nora who becomes as obsessed to bring Victor back as he was obsessed with her is a crime after how that tie in left us hanging... Excellent video as always, thanks for going down this frozen rabbit hole
I’m surprised there hasn’t been (to my knowledge) a story where victor is made a member of the suicide squad, given how easily his moral grayness and dedication to nora (not unlike deadshot and his daughter) make him a good fit for the task force X
I could totally see Waller forcing Freeze to join under threat that if he doesn’t she’ll pull the plug on Nora. I actually thought Peter Capaldi was potentially gonna play Freeze in The Suicide Squad when images of him on set came out, I thought the bald head + crazy eyebrows might’ve meant he was playing a 60’s inspired Freeze
That's been my headcanon pitch for a few years now: "Mr. Freeze in Suicide Squad." An interesting realignment for the Mr. Freeze character with a lot of different directions to go. To bad it will never happen.
in Defense of "She's Old enough to be your grand mother." in that Comic arc... I think it was to drive home the fact that she'd been preserved longer than Victor had been alive... to say nothing of being from another time
I remember some fanfic I read forever ago that actual gives Victor and Nora a happy ending. She's revived and forgives Victor for his crimes and Victor is working to reduce his sentence.
What a magnificent episode! It was because of the DCAU story of Mr Freeze that I love the possibilities for him as a character; not necessarily a full villain, but as a complicated antagonist. I was unaware of just how much story there was regarding Nora (and how disappointing many of them were) but it was fun to learn and discover the good ones. It is amazing that a seemingly background plot device can turn into a full fledged character that is used in every form of media. This might be my favorite episode!
I feel like The Animted Series did it so well it should be left alone golden. They could extend her story through after his sacrifical death, turn Nora into an anti-hero who wants to make amends for Victor's actions while at the same time avenging the things that caused it.
Now I really want Nora to be around long enough to have her own character. And I really enjoy the "villain couple that are happy together" thing, too. I might have to write some of that... As for OFMD, I haven't seen it but it's conquered my social media feeds. 🤣
The problem with the Nora Fries story is the same problem comics have in general: the economics of comic books require ongoing narratives which never resolve themselves. The story of Nora Fries works in the original material because the narrative has a beginning and an end. It's self-contained and tells a compelling story which feels emotionally real. But mainstream comics are just soap operas for nerds, which means no storylines can ever be allowed to end. They have to go back to the well over and over and over again, telling and retelling the same story to extract every penny of profit from the concept until it has lost all its original impact. There are characters where you can keep reinventing them and nothing is lost. The Joker, for example. But Nora Fries is tied to a narrative which _requires_ there to be a cohesive arc, where Mr. Freeze's origin is satisfyingly complex. To keep reinventing him they have to destroy the narrative. Just like Nora Fries herself, the beauty must remain forever frozen for it to remain compelling.
I think this is true as it exists, but I can't think it needs to be this way. It's entirely possible to tell stories that don't resolve because they simply keep progressing the canon, but you need to have and keep having good ideas. Which is hard for one good writer, let alone dozens of mediocre writers. Case in point: the Mr and Mrs Freeze villain couple story could have been good for a decade or two of stories, but only gets a single issue. I think there's some movement towards fixing this with selling trades as labeled mostly self contained stories becoming a trend, one that I'm well in favor of.
@@SimonBuchanNz I think the MCU is starting to creak under the weight of its own accumulating canon, although it is thankfully limited by the actual age of its actors who, unlike comic book characters, are not immortal. DC, on the other hand, after turning its attempt to mimic the MCU into a raging dumpster fire, has been a lot more willing to take chances on self-contained stories with no or few connections to larger canon. Why am I discussing films when the subject at hand is comics? Because neither Marvel nor DC are making money publishing comics these days. Their _best_ titles break even, and most of their lineups lose money hand over fist. They exist solely as a test bed for creating new content to be turned into movies. So as the films go, so too will go the comics.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace what's your source for comics not doing well? A quick Google shows about 50% growth over the last 10 years, which doesn't sound like a failing business. I think the change is the audience is shifting to people who prefer digital, which makes tracking physical sales make things look worse than they are. And obviously merch is where the real money is... But overall, yeah, I'm pretty unsure about the state of writing in both comics and comic movies. There doesn't seem to be a strong editorial vision other than "what works" - even the MCU which built itself on an editorial vision seems to be in "throw things at the wall and see what sticks" mode at the moment. Hopefully the Doctor Strange movie will give us a bit more framing for what's going on at least.
@@SimonBuchanNz Check out circulation numbers over the last 75 years. In the 1950s and 1960s, top comics routinely sold 10 million+ copies, and a comic which sold less than a million was considered a flop. These days a comic which sells over 100,000 copies would be regarded as a smash hit. I'm sure you're aware that Marvel actually went bankrupt in the 90s, while DC experienced an implosion that saw almost their entire lineup eliminated except for a handful of their most popular titles.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace sure, but they had less titles, far lower price and no digital sales. Certainly they're not doing as well as then, but not clearly by an order of magnitude or so. I'd have to do the numbers on inflation etc. I guess what I meant was why do you think they're barely breaking even? Even at lower volumes like 5k units they should be making an alright margin, by some back of a napkin, pulling numbers out my ass arithmetic. That can change based on the numbers I don't have of course, but they seem to keep selling them at that volume, and even lower.
The AU Nora so far seems the most interesting. At the very least, the art alone portrays a lot of personality. Though the idea of the Mr and Mrs Freeze power villain couples also sounds like a fun idea I wish got more exploration.
Too bad they the storyline moved so fast and they did not do more as a couple. I don't think the writers were really that interested in the villain couple idea at least not in the long term.
Favourite version of Nora is definitely the DCAU for the perspective of a villain relationship where the significant other could be interpreted as not aligning on the same moral compass but still respecting Victor's plight. Plus the idea of her having a moving on period albeit short lived. The Scott Snyder one I remember being strongly against it intially as for much of the New 52 at that point but now on hindsight I would like to see how that could've been played had Nora come out of cryostasis. I think for me in general seeing them having to deal with the reprocussions of Victor's action, be it if she was consenting with the cryostasis or not, is the story that always intrigued me when they go down the route of freeing her but having it be reactionary instant breakup or instant partners in crime leaves a lot of development that I'd rather see instead. As for Our Flags Means Death hadn't heard of it.
That revived Nora whose relationship with Victor is strained but still has history and she’s stuck in the perpetual freeze he is is so compelling. It makes for so much more exciting content for Mr. Freeze than the other ideas since his marriage has pros and cons since they love each other but she’s mad that he doesn’t realize that he deprived her of agency. Plus a supervillain named Mrs. Freeze sounds kinda cool, you rarely see any supervillainesses who have the gumption to put Mrs. in their name (except for Dr. Mrs. The Monarch from Venture Brothers who was proud to put her doctorate status and her marital status on her title)
My personal preference for Mr & Mrs Fries would be a moderately villainous but healthy relationship with personal conflict but also an underlying sense of love with some sort of reason for them to carry on being villains instead of just happily retiring. However, if I were to try to use her separate from Victor I would introduce her in Batman Beyond after Victor's death and her motivation would be a similar kind of obssession to his where she's trying to bring him back to life or time travel back to be with him.
6:13 and 23:04 I honestly can't help but feel like everything that pertains to Nora Fries in these two statements, can also be applied to Elsa. The idea of an eternally beautiful woman, whose charm and characteristics are admirable, yet at the same time, unattainable to others.
I winced and rolled my eyes when Nora became "Mrs. Freeze" but I actually started really liking the idea of Mr and Mrs Freeze Villan team. Especially the Dominant Nora who turns out is way into this villan thing. Would love to see her more in comics with Mr. Freeze.
Yeah, at first glance it seemed like a seriously cringe-y concept, but then it turned out to actually be wasted potential that should've been used as a more long-term thing.
I love the DCAU comic continuation. It gives Freeze time to truly be a new man, to move on from his past mistakes, as if working to become the man Nora loved, which allows them to be hapoy together once and for all. And I love Nora showing she's willing to go as far as Freeze did for her to save him in turn. It's really sweet and an amazing rendition of both characters.
The DCAU version of Nora is the one I gravitate to most. The little notions that both, would do anything for one another is what makes them work. I think, had she been given enough time, she might’ve just done enough bad to be on par with Victor. Just to see him again. Hoping that one day, a warm hand would meet hers.
I would like to see a Mr. and Mrs. Freeze villian combo, where it's good for a little while but Victor starts to not really care about the villiany and even starts to not like it, while Nora seems to enjoy the new life but she's doing it because she thinks he likes it and really doesn't care too much about it. After some big plot and batman stopping them they both tell the other that they don't like the villiany, fake their own deaths, and settle down in the artic, or alaska, which ever works.
Great breakdown of a character who's often thought of as an instigating macguffin rather than a person in her own right! Also; Our Flag Means Death is amazing, and I can hardly wait for more of it!
I know this is an older video of yours but its still really good! I grew up with the dcau cartoons and always enjoyed noras story. For all the bad arkham knight as a game can sometimes do with its plot, the mr freeze dlc was fantastic. The voice actors especially sell the pain and suffering of the whole situation, especially kevin conroy who knows so well when to make batman sound more sympathetic and gentle. RIP to the legend
There was never any need to fix something that wasn't broken. The attempt during the DCAU era to revive Nora and then have her start to try to live her own life thinking her husband is dead, only to return to him because she only married her current one out of gratitude and now wants to pick up where she left off, was a good starting point for further development. As she learns what Victor did while she was frozen in stasis, she struggles to come to terms with the fact the man she married isn't quite there anymore, and she has to choose whether to accept who he is now or try to revive the man she married, and he tries to reform for her sake but thinks he can't because of his crimes. Maybe they go through a trial separation so she can find herself, and she ends up choosing to be with him no matter what. And whatever path Victor chooses, good or evil, we see ongoing, complex storytelling about how it affects their relationship and where the two of them should go.
I really like it when Mr. Freeze is in a loving relationship with Nora but another part of me really likes Nora not being totally happy about his actions and even upset with him about it. It plays up Mr. Freeze's obsessiveness and gives Nora a little more of her own personality while playing with the concept of how would you like to die knowing you have a very limited amount of time left. Would you accept it and just spend it with friends and family or doing everything to save yourself no matter how unlikely?
I haven't watched Our Flag Means Death, but I have spent the last month slowly working my way through your archive and enjoying these deep dives into character histories. I've never been more than a casual fan of DC or Marvel, and it's always a shock to me to learn how many different versions of these characters there are.
My favorite version of Nora is definitely the DCAU tie-ins (the ones NOT written by Dini), I liked that _Gotham Adventures_ and _Batman Adventures_ actually gave her a character and personality.
Yes, I stayed through the whole video. I truly appreciate you taking the time to do an in-depth dive. I truly enjoy every video you make and truly appreciate what you do for your channel.
Tomasi's treatment of Mr. Freeze in his Detective Comics run is awesome. I would have enjoyed seeing that play out more fully. It was undone in the back-up stories in the first few issues of Urban Legends. :(
I love Nora. Was always obsessed with her when she was just a fridged wife of a mad man. Great to see her character explored in so many ways. Thanks for sharing. I knew a lot of this already but definitely leaned more by watching
I had never even heard of Our Flag Means Death until watching this video. I’m always learning things on your channel, thanks Sasha! Also, while the DACU origin is iconic, I feel that since Nora isn’t always someone I see a lot of (most times frozen when I do) I don’t mind different approaches being taken with her character. I knew about her as Lazara from many years ago perusing Wikipedia, but I don’t know how I didn’t realize or remember that she had been shattered into pieces and that’s the main reason why she became infused with Lazarus properties. What a gnarly concept… *shudder*.
Fantastic video...I love, love, love these kinds of retrospectives. I'm a sucker for redemption arcs and bittersweet but hopeful endings. I loved the idea of Nora being cured, but Mr. Freeze having to let her go...and being happy with that. I really liked how things went in the DCAU continutity. I could have been on board with the Rebirth version if it hadn't made the fact that Freeze froze her in the first place so clearly an evil act in itself. They could have made it a selfish and bad act without it being such a black and white total violation. I would have been much happier if her death had been much more imminent and Nora wasn't in a position to advocate for herself but Freeze knew that she'd already accepted her death and yet froze her anyway because he couldn't accept it. That's still horrible and wrong so Nora would still have plenty of reason to be angry with him and upset about the whole situation in general, but it's not a huge leap that a basically decent person might rationalize doing something like that in desperation if she's not capable of arguing with him about whether "I've accepted my death." was intended to meant "I'm so committed to dying that I wouldn't change it if I could." But her having so much time left means it wasn't a heat of the moment thing that means time pressure wasn't clouding his judgement and her outright begging him not to do it leaves no room at all for ambiguity about how he might have thought she'd feel about it. I would have forgiven the Rebirth version all that, though, if it hadn't also turned Nora into a cacklingly evil lunatic in the end. I would have enjoyed an exploration of Nora working through her situation...there were was so much potential and they did the least interesting thing they could have possibly done with it outside of simply turning her back into a popsicle.
Now that you mentioned it can you do a deep dive on Maxie Zeus? I feel like there’s something about his character that could be more interesting to portray in a live action property than some of the other dc villains we’ve seen.
I know this video is about Nora, but I would like to take a moment to point out how quintessentially Mike Mignola his original DCAU design was. Sharp, angular shiloette that's a signature of him and paul dini, contrasted with rounded elements in the suit, the tank, the shoulders, the dome... and that dome! A perfect choice. At once both retro-futirust like th whole art deco feel of the original series but also showcasing both the humanity still at his core and the isolation inside. No faceless helmet or fully exposed head. A perfect blend of vulnerability and distance. And the inherent fragility of the glass. But we can't sympathize too much, so the goggles..the perfectly round perfectly Mignola goggles. They hide his eyes, keep him unknowable, enforcing that coldness and distance...but not in an inherently menacing or angry way that more angled eye pieces might imply. Again, roundness against the straight edges of the sides of his head and his angular nose and jaw. It says a lot about the character without a word spoken. It's a look that at once blends perfectly with the aesthetic of the show, but also the second you're told who designed it you KNOW it's true, you see all the hallmarks. Frankly, the ultra-angular redesign later on made a hash of it. I think the whole show suffered from that redesign but Freeze especially. It sucked out all of his humanity and vulnerability. Suddenly he's hulking and sharp edged, mean-eyed, menacing in a hot active way rather than a cold brooding sense. No more do you get the sense of a brilliant, sensitive man under all the ice and glass and regret. Nope, now just another villain. A thug with a gimmick. ART IS IMPRTANT, PEOPLE!
I love the perspective the general conversation you are generating by bringing up all the goodness that comes from this character and ll your other vids. Its good shit. Glad you're doing it
Thank you for this retrospective Sasha! I've always been curious about Nora, but never really "delved" into her. I'm always grateful for your content educated me in Comics. Haven't watched that show yet, but maybe I will in the future!
If the DCAU was looked at through the lense of words like scary, obsessive or possessive then Bruce Timms fetish of Batgirl would get a lot more criticism
A lot of villains have the origin or an episode where they hyper-obsess over a woman who ends up not being interested and go down an evil path because they just want to objectify her. Most notably the Mad Hatter’s origin. Then there was Rat Boy in Batman Beyond or the guy who terrified his ex-wife to death in Justice League.
As much as I LOVE that Universe... You're not wrong. A Fair amount of Treatment towards the Female Characters is probably what's Aged the Worst about the DCAU to say the least.
@@Nightman221k also their take on the Creeper in New Batman Adventures was basically a freakazoid rip off chasing Harley. Still nothing compared to Timms decades long obsession with pairing Batgirl with batman and while she may not be underage in this continuety it's an abuse of power dynamics just to start. Then the whole idea that that she had a miscarriage and that's used as motivation why batman and Nightwing don't talk. Or that the killing joke (where Batgirl already lacks agency) needed rooftop sex hook ups
@@indie-mox7473 Not all of them. Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy and Leslie Thompkins were great. Hell, even Renee Montoya wasn't that bad. It's the villains' 'morality pet' love interests that ended up taking the shaft
This was an amazing video and it's these kinds of deep dives that make me love your channel. As a BTAS fan, I've always loved Mr. Freeze and his new origin, so I find this very interesting. Oh and what makes Nora's Arrowverse Elseworlds appearance even more random is that she was played by Stephen Amell's wife. Oh and yes, I have seen Our Flag Means Death and I quite enjoyed it.
Yeah, I always get a bit teary eyed when watching that scene from the Arkham Knight DLC too! Her inclusion into Freeze’s origin is one of the best things Batman TAS did (one of the many best things lol), but yeah, I do like it when her side of things is explored a bit more. I’m glad Snyder’s version didn’t stick around. His Batman run is one of my favorites, but I didn’t really like his twist on Freeze’s origin, personally. Really hoping we see the Fries’ (or Freezes) in one of Reeves’ Batman movies. He’s mentioned Mr. Freeze as an interesting villain in interviews, and so it would be cool to see what kind of chilling tale he would tell about them!
I think the big reason behind the change in The Adventures Continue was due to Paul Dini and Bruce Timm not working in Sub-Zero. It was directed by Boyd Kirkland, and they strongly disagreed with having Nora live. So once Dini and Alan Burnett got to write in The Adventures Continue, they decided to "fix" that by killing Nora off-screen and using her as a device once again.
I always liked Rocksteady's Mr Freeze, and the Arkham Knight DLC is such a fitting way to end his story, Nora being the only person who could stop him.
I seriously can't be the only one who actually likes the twist with Victor in The New 52? It actually is a nice change of pace from the usual, what was Victor in The Batman
I have not watch "Our Flag Means death" but will be checking it out soon! Loved the video, I do hope they can bring some nuance into the villain Nora in the (time of commenting) future!
I watched the whole thing. Got here after discovering the Harley series and running into the clip of Freeze sacrificing himself, which shocked me given how significant that is and coming from a show like Harley Quinn.
I really like the Mrs. Freeze version of Nora, her design is really cool, and I feel that if her story and feelings weren't as rushed she would be better remembered
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Finally someone else to talk about Our Flag Means Death with! I was wondering about the funko pop back there. I do agree that Nora works best as a plot device, not that she can't work on her own but that is where writers are most comfortable/proficient at using her.
Good to know, as I someday might take the plunge into publishing!
Also, did you think we would not make it to the end of the video?
To be fair, we do live in a world where people lack attention spa~
…………………………………………………………………………………………..
Love your videos
So what it boils down to is BTAS is the best version of Misters Freeze and Nora. I will say my second favorite was Gotham. I like that show. I enjoyed it. The worst version once more like everything is the worst version in this series is Batwoman. Which I keep saying it is a same. Batwoman is a great characters but the CW show is horrible horrible writing.It just gets worse and worse as it goes along. And that is my issue with the show. Terrible writing. As goofy and disliked Batman and robin movie is. It basically did the animated story which I did like. The comic stuff is meh. Compared to other versions I don't feel it at all. I feel like they took away the sympathetic. of both characters kinda. It was not horrible. Some parts came very interesting ideas. But over all other versions I said above are better. Harley quinn which is a fun shows and great comedy, they can do what they want cause it's ment to be a comedy else world. I really enjoyed the video. TY
I love your videos about comic characters.
I always prefer the version in wich Nora and Victor are truely in love. I like the tragic side it add to the story and beside, I think we already have enough evil bad guys and abusive partners in comic to be ok with something a bit different.
Joker abuses Harley enough to cover himself and Mr Freeze
Amen, to both those sentiments. ^^
Agreed, Torlik. I think the Joker and Harley have the abusive relationship covered.
Ever since Heart of Ice in BtAS, Mr. Freeze has been a character that stands for something not sick and demented like the Joker and Harley Quinn's dynamic, but something beautifully tragic. Two people truly in love, a stroke of random chance threatening to tear them away from each other, and the cruelty of those who care only about their pockets nearly sealing the deal. A man who genuinely loves his wife and is genuinely good to her, becoming obsessed to the point that he'll do *anything.* "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" as they say.
Obviously he's not meant to be 100% in the right. Otherwise why would he be the *villain.* But not all men in fiction who love a woman should be depicted as controlling that woman and taking away her free will. Some is just fine, like I said, we have the Joker. He's not meant to be sympathetic.
Let Mister Freeze be a good, loving husband, driven mad by loss. But who can at least be happy enough, knowing that she's okay. Even if she's not with him.
I actually like the Arkham version a lot, for it covers everything you said. And I’m the end he and Nora spent a few days together instead of chasing a cure because that’s want she wanted. It’s heartbreaking, and really sweet. Him being the best boss fight in the entire series helps, too 😂
@@yw9372the end was beautiful, but Batman telling Alfred "we won't be hearing from them again" is almost a comedic finish 😂
Tbh I personally adore their relationship when depicted that she consented to being frozen so advancement in medicine could be made, and too many writers try to go the whole ‘she didn’t want this’ route. I find it the most compelling when her and her husband’s arc end because he realized that he destroyed their possible future of normalcy and they agree to pass on together, and it breaks my heart a little
I really dislike how they try to constantly turn her into a victim in an attempt to deconstruct their relationship which just ruins freezes character and falls into a certain cliche about wives in fictional media. If it ain't broke dont fix it and every time they fumble with it it falls apart (except Arkham maybe)
I agree. I think the most interesting version of Nora is the DCAU Comics version. There's something very charming every time a DCU Civilian is like "actually no, I'm with the supervillain" in a completely normal and non-goon way. Plus like, there's a lot of Bonnie and Clydes and a lot of Girl In The Tube stories. There's not really many Bonnie in the Tube stories. The most interesting way to do Nora is that she's wide awake, alive, and has been rooting _against_ Batman the entire time.
What I like is when she agrees, but once she's seen what happened to victor, she's content to just live the remains of their short lives together, where her consenting and being cured wasn't her wanting to live longer for herself, it's to have a life with Victor. Where she had already come to terms with the fact that she would most likely die, she had come to terms with death, but She still wanted to live with victor. But once they both were going to die soon, she'd rather spend a day with victor than 40 years without him.
I think Arkham Knight balanced these two very well, with Nora consenting to it, but realizing she didn't want it after seeing Victor lose himself, then the two deciding to pass on together.
So in BTAS the person who cause Mr. Freeze turn to villainy is named Ferris Boyle… Ferris = Fahrenheit and (the more obvious) Boyle = boil. They were definitely opposites. Freeze and Boyle (boil). BTAS always has a little hidden gem for when you get older.
As a lover of clever puns I appreciate this.
And Boyle was Mark Hamill's first BTAS role.
Boyle….Boyle…Boyle…
No saving Ferris THIS time!!!
@@HBHaga First Mark Hamill BATS _aired._ I believe he had already voiced the Joker in several episodes prior to voicing this one in the production order. Aired later in the series of course. That said, Mark was already a prolific voice actor having started in the early 70's. Warner Brothers had (has) a stable of go-to voice actors, and most of them do multiple characters. It's often easier to hand a script to someone who's already in the studio to do a few lines for another episode than call in someone special just to do a couple lines.
That said, BATS was not Mark's first foray into the DC universe. The year before (in 1991) he played The Trickster in that year's live action version of _The Flash._ An underrated show.
@@tarmaque Nope, according to some of his talks, Hamill did Ferris Boyle first and then came back to do the Joker. Here's one of them ruclips.net/video/mn4WSR-aZtU/видео.html
I don't have a problem with them always being connected. It's an interesting part of their charcters. Without Nora Mr. Freeze is a knock off captain cold and without Mr. Freeze Nora is just some woman frozen in stasis. They can't really work without each other.
It's like being type casted but the opposite.
.
You could exist as Mr Freeze without Nora but it's only freeze in name.
.
Is the word I look for trope?
.
Is there a theory for tropes being connected to universal story telling.
Ie there will always be a women in stasis with her love looking to bring her back as time passes.
.
Could this not be Rick?
Scrooge?
Dead wife
"Man motivated by dead woman" is a trope.
Not enough "Women in stasis" for that to be a trope
Snow White
Sleeping Beauty
Elsa in 'Frozen II'
"Girlfriend in prison" is that a trope?
"Kidnapped girlfriend" That's a trope.
But I think that is part of the temptation of separating Mr. and Mrs. Freeze. People love to separate inseparable things to see what happens, it's human nature.
@@Mecharnie_Dobbs what the fuck are you saying you talk worse than an ai
@@burnslee1164 Yeah, and it hasn't really worked out. They're better and more interesting characters together.
Proof positive even the worst Z-grade characters can be raised to A-list material with the right writers.
YOU: that comment.
ME: (from day one to now) THANK YOU!!!!
Or you know, the opposite
That's essentially the MCU's guiding principle. Iron Man before the MCU was at best a B-lister and you could honestly say he was more a C-lister. Doesn't help in the comics at the time, he was a MAJOR asshole due to Civil War which DESTROYED his character. Now he's one of the biggest SuperHeroes ever and a definite A-Lister
Hell yeah!
@@ThePatxiao And now they are just destroying every other character. Hardly seem a fair trade.
The Nora I always imagine is the warmest person. That's why Victor was so willing to do everything for her, because she is such a wonderful and amazing person that he fell in love with.
And the story should always end with Nora melting Victors heart after he revived her, regardless of them dying shortly after or has happier ending.
She should always be the exact opposite of what Victor turned into.
And not the nora in the harley quinn show...
I don't believe that, until this video, I never caught on that Mr "Freeze" was wronged by Mr "Boil"!
You're not the only one!
Me neither 😂😂
Yeap
Nearly an hour on Nora Fries. This is why Casually Comics exists... that minutia.
1:00 Grab a snack. I got fries.
Before now I didn't think there was enough about Nora Fries to do more than 10 mins.
@@ytechnology Ouch, I see what you did there. 👍
Freeze was the first bad guy that I felt wasn't a bad guy
Maybe he can make a cameo in the next Wreck-It Ralph. :)
Well maybe at first at a certain point they become the bad guys and love it.
@@aurahoneydew9607 I don't think Freeze ever takes pleasure in his evil deeds, they are always a means to bringing back Nora. He wouldn't hesitate to do evil but he doesn't take pleasure in the acts.
@@christopherironmonkey4144 oh he does in the comic. Quite a lot actually. You get a Dio Brando thing from all the Batman villains there. Where they're jerk but they're both interesting and fabulous so you just love it.
GCPD and no man's land even starts with him being more sadistic and hostile.
@@aurahoneydew9607 True even Arnold seemed to have fun at times. I think he is at his best though when he is a mirror to batman, they are both men driven to extremes by grief. Their antics may be thrilling but at their core they are big sad boi's.
Truly, the way Nora was portrayed since her appearance in BTAS where she was literally a frozen body is shocking.
I just want to hear the “Heart of Ice” theme in a live action Batman movie one day
Only if they keep their "new takes" away from it.
@@zufalllx haha imagine a "The Joker" movie but with Mr. Freeze, that would be hilarious actually
🎶Tale old as time, beauty and The Freeze🎶
Curse you and your ice cold pun
The idea of a villainous Nora, Especially one who takes over the Mr. freeze title is really interesting. Just imagine a comic where Nora is successfully cured, and is a totally normal person, but seeing freeze like this, a half frozen barely alive shell of his former self, drives her to do the same he did for her. Imagine her going through the same motions, stealing experimental machines and the like to cure freeze, and having freeze watch, seeing exactly what he was in Nora and realizing this isn't what he wants, he doesn't want her to be obsessively trying to fix him. He could start out helping her, either out of a desire to live with Nora, to satisfy her obsession, or even just to be normal himself, but over time, perhaps with batman's help and advice, he confronts Nora. He tells her that he doesn't want her to waste what time they have together like this, that all he wants is to spend what little time they have together together, not wasting it trying to draw it out further. Perhaps Nora listens, spending time with Freeze until his inevitably death, before she moves on.
Maybe she doesn't, continuing to try make more time and in the process, looses what time they did have. What would be really painful is Wayne enterprises making a cure for Nora, her rushing back to Freeze, only to see him take his last breath, just too late to stop it. I could imagine subsequent stories where she's just lashing out in anger, anger at the world for this cruel life, anger at the scientists for not making a cure fast enough, but truly, anger at herself for wasting the time they had, for not listening to him. Maybe Batman could help her through this rage, helping her come to terms with it and what it's truly about. Maybe she peacefully moves on, tries to return to a regular life.
Or maybe you could have her go through an arc where she goes through the 5 stages of grief, with bargaining being her committing crimes for Ra's Al Ghul in exchange for use of the Lazarus pit. Here, bargaining would be more literal, her trying to bring back freeze through various bargains, but she mentally could be what the bargaining stage is, stuck in the past about how she messed up and hyper focused on everything being perfect. Yet again, a confrontation with batman could once again lead to him helping her move on, at least to the next stage of grief, with him talking about how Victor wouldn't have wanted Nora to do these things for him, and how what she did then is already done, but she still needs to move forwards with her life.
Here, with depression, it would be like Freeze was before, cold and distant. Rather than Fighting to some goal, She would merely be fighting as Batman sought her out after last time. She'd attack whenever he tried to approach, but otherwise would just hide away from the world, probably in the arctic once more. Eventually, after repeated attempts to get to her, batman eventually convinces her to let him in. Cue them working through this grief, not only that Freeze is gone, but that she wasted time, both hers and his, for some stupid cure she still keeps around as a painful reminder, unable to get rid of it due to what it meant. This little arc could end with her shattering the cure, signifying her no longer being guilt and grief ridden. From there, Nora could be a regular person occasionally forced back into the suit for various reasons, or perhaps even a minor hero, occasionally helping when needed or requested, but otherwise living a regular life
You just put my thoughts into words, well done, I hope a comic or a show does this (Almost exactly) like you said it would be, it's so good.
I love that
It could go further and say she teams up with Dr. Caitlin Snow or Killer Frost or Frost, and works to treat both of themselves. Maybe even develop the true cure for Nora's original illness, instead of making Lex's cure the only one. Then memorialize the Nora cure to Victor.
Why you gotta make me cry, damit?! 😭😭
Wow, this is one beefy video, and I'm not even surprised that every version of Nora Fries ends up in a tragic and bittersweet relationship... Except Harley animated, that's sad for everyone else.
I haven't yet watched Our Flag Means Death yet, but I love Taika Waititi, and I wanna be him when I grow up.
Some of us want to be Taika RIGHT. NOW!
@@jpboursaw4469 Some of us want him to just go away. It's never good when your popularity exceeds your talent. Andy Warhol had the same problem.
@@zufalllx i dont think he is more popular than talented yet, he still deserves more popularity
Love that her narration gives Nora this earnest, breathy voice and Freeze sounds like a nerd from an 80s movie.
Man, i never saw that end of the dcau comics, with her trying to save Victor. that is probably the most interesting idea to what do with a saved Nora, both cute and sad. The Arkhan Knight version is cool too. A lot of the other ones try way too hard to make it tragic or dark, or deconstruct it, and just make it weird.
Also thanks Sasha for defending Batman and Robin, i love this cheesy and dumb movie a lot!
I still want a story where Nora Fries has the PhD and wants Victor to freeze her, but he's just an engineer and messes up the process. Or thinks he did. And so she's the actual Dr. Fries, and "Mr. Freeze" is a pet name for him.
Idk I think no one has managed to top the original au origin yet, if it ain't broke, dont fix it.
Probably better as some variant of the Batman Animated Series version, where her condition is the result of a third party, which motivates Victor's desire for revenge. If he can't save her, he feels the absolute bare minimum he can do is avenge her. Maybe add in a desire to make sure said third party can't make anyone else go through what he went through.
Granted, I haven't watched or read too many different origin stories. I remember the 2000s Batman cartoon where Freeze was already a criminal. If I remember correctly, he was trying to escape either the cops or Batman when a homeless guy got in the way and made him crash, resulting in his condition. I didn't like that one too much.
ok, i actually really like that direction for her
@@jaimeruiz7837 youve fallen into the Sober Barney Mistake.
If you remove a character's gimmick and reason for being included in a story, but do not replace it with a sufficiently good enough gimmick/reason to warrant them sticking around, then you will end up with the character either never appearing again, or reverting to their original gimmick/reason
@@honeyham6788 hey dude there's several spin offs of multiple characters. That's fine. There's a version of Tim Drake that turns him into a mini joker and that has only happened to one of him.
It's OK to have just one story where the two gets a happy ending with their arcs resolved and they leave. Even in the same story, characters don't have to be constantly recurring.
Wow- didn't realize Nora Fries had such a complicated origin. Great history lesson Sasha.
I think there's a really interesting idea in a cured Nora putting Mr. Freeze on the an anti-heroic or even heroic road. The story doesn't have to end even though that particular arc does. Giving Nora a compelling and interesting characterization makes it so that the Freezes don't have to have an finite story.
Ultimately, outside of Joker, I think every Batman villain has a very clear path to redemption and that's what makes Batman's villains so interesting.
That's what I was thinking. Nora could be the person in the cave so to speak while freeze is an anti-hero. It's really simple to execute too. Freeze feels bad about the consequences of some of his crimes and realizes he could do a lot of good for Gotham. Nora supports the idea and wants to help out.
Why does every Batman villain have to have a redemption arc? That's boring and lame!
I don't know if it's just because my first intro to Nora and Mr Freeze was the DCAU so I'm hung up on the nostalgia or if it's the hopeless romantic in me, but I've always been more here for the 'they actually truly deeply love each other but circumstances keep them apart', like as much as I ADORED Victor in The Batman (loved that show so much though I do still have questions about their Joker design sometimes, like by the end I just accepted it but it was... odd. There were choices made.), I've always kinda preferred the idea of Victor as a man just desperate to save and protect the woman who loves him and that he loves in return, a Victor who is willing to let her go but not willing to let her die and a Nora who loves him and maybe even has to turn around and save Victor in return in some fashion.
I started Our Flag a couple days ago but between being a busy busy person and also having the 'new show' brain FREEZEs (lol) I haven't gotten more than a couple minutes in.
Mr Freeze was basically like Polka Dot Man back in the 90s. He was a nobody character that Batman TAS fleshed out with the introduction of Nora and the tragic back story.
The Nora seeks out Victor of the DCAU comics and the Arkham Knight versions are the best.
I'm gonna use this opportunity to shout out one of my favourite portrayals of Nora Fries from the video game Batman: Arkham Knight. After she is abducted by the Arkham Knight's men Nora's cryopod is damaged, after promising Victor he'll find her Batman tracks Nora down where she reveals that she has been conscious while frozen all these years and is saddened by what her husband has become.
After Freeze and Batman team up against the Arkham Knight's men again all of his equipment and research is destroyed in the process, leading to this exchange.
Freeze: "I don't want you to die Nora"
Nora: "Then let me live! Please."
Freeze: "We won't have much time, maybe days..."
Nora: "Time never was on our side Victor."
Freeze then turns off his life support and rides off on a boat with Nora to spend their final days together, with Alfred offering to track them but Batman refusing because "We won't see them again." With the lasting legacy of the rain being replaced with snow for the rest of the game.
Arkham Knight's writing wasn't the best but this mission caught me off guard the first time I played it and is maybe one of my favourite moments involving Freeze and Nora since Heart of Ice, nearly bringing me to tears.
EDIT: Ah damn I see it's in this video I thought I was slick bringing it up lol. That's good though because more people need to know about her appearance in Arkham Knight.
Yeah they also did my girl Poison Ivy justice. Those games definitely gave the villains a lot more depth.
@@gvirusqueen3559 Arkham Asylum single handedly got me into DC as a kid, that game is honestly a fantastic starting point with all the character bios including for characters not featured in the game like Ratcatcher or Humpty Dumpty. Those games are still my default Batman as a result.
Anyone find it funny that Sasha dressed like Killer Frost for a video on Mr. Freeze? Next thing you know she’s gonna dress as Amy Rose for a video on Metal Sonic LOL.
Sally acorn
She reminds me of the Major from ghost in the shell.
I'd like to see a version where Nora is working on her own cure and Victor is initially just a supportive husband doing everything he can to encourage her and keep her working, keep her hoping she (and possibly her team) can create a cure while also secretly preparing for the worse with his cryogenics.
When the writing is finally on the wall, that a cure is possible but years away and Nora will be long gone by then they both decide to take the gamble of freezing her, since Victor doesn't know if he can actually revive her. But they got this far on hope and perseverance, and she believes in him as much as he believes in her. Cue popsicle Nora.
Initially, that is the plan. Victor works on reviving tech, Nora's people continue the work on a cure. It's a waiting game, but now getting her thawed is on him so everything now depends on his success. (For fun, lets say his cryogenics is also for human deep space exploration, hence the old space suit design of his later villain armor).
Then stuff goes wrong. Funding is cut, first for the cure, now putting it not years away but decades. Then funding is cut as interest in human exploration decreases with the rise in advanced robotics, meaning he possibly now can't even develop the thawing process to a safe level until he is too old to even have a life with Nora.
So he gives up. He can't save her, he can't move on because all the work was for them to have a life together. So he decides to freeze himself and wait with her. That way, there is still hope for their dream.
That is where things go even more wrong and his attempt to freeze himself is interrupted, leaving him as Mister Freeze. Now all he has left is saving Nora so she can have the life they wanted, and screw anyone getting in the way of or endangering that goal.
At some point you could even thaw out Nora, who basically just took a nap, woke up cured, and with her husband a monster. Then their goal becomes curing Victor, because they were always ride or die. It was always their life, their dream, and they've come too far and endured too much to ever give up. The world, in their view, owes them their happiness and should just get out of their way or they will force it to.
Could even add some ability to Nora when she thaws, like being able to absorb cold by touch. Meaning she is now literally toxic to Victor, as if they kiss for more than a few seconds, or just hold hands too long, he would literally die of heatstroke. So again, the world denies them, but they refuse to let it stop them.
I'd enjoy a villain power couple whose goal is literally "lose our powers and just be normal people somewhere the wold can't keep getting between us", but their attitude is also that the world has thwared them at every point so they will steal, coerce, and hurt people to reach their goal. I'd even have them be against killing (hence the cold weapons), as they primarily disable people rather than kill them (at least without sustained application of cold). Giving people hypothermia also means the hero has to save those people, while they get away.
I love the ending that Victor and Nora are given in Arkham Knight. The delivery of "I won't let you die, Nora!" "Then let me live, Victor!" just feels so powerful to me.
I cheer at the sweet relationship of ride & die Victor and Nora but also laughed out loud at angry Nora screaming at her husband about his legitimately terrible decisions/ starting a fling immediately after being cured.
Is it me...or is Mr. Freeze one of the few most popular villains that's actually married?
Now that I'm thinking about it you right.
Ugh hmmmm….Got any idea?
Supervillainy isn't an occupation that leave a lot of time for long term relationship
There’s the Huntress and Sportsmaster. But they’re JSA villains another earth. Villainy isn’t conducive to long term relationships.
The only other I can think of is David Xanatos from Disney's Gargoyles.
While I haven't watched the foppish pirate series in question (yet), my favorite versions of Nora are where it is a wistful tragic, but ultimately healthy and loving relationship. Basically the original DCAU and extended comics version. There's always so much melodrama in comics in order to get a plotline talked about, it is honestly refreshing to see a relationship where love, loss, and even letting someone go is meant out of earnest and honest respect for each other. Victor desperate to save her, but believing that Nora wouldn't accept him once he finally succeeds (and Victor often being wrong about that) is touching. I realize the reason they stray away from it is because it gives them a concrete arc that has an end, and it's harder to justify him becoming a villain again. Nora has agency in those iterations, we just don't need to be told what it is. She trusts her husband, who ends up going too far without her.
I can only assume Hal Jordan slipped on a bar of soap and that somehow froze D'Anjou. Classic Hal.
The fact that in all these years we haven't seen one instance of a Nora who becomes as obsessed to bring Victor back as he was obsessed with her is a crime after how that tie in left us hanging...
Excellent video as always, thanks for going down this frozen rabbit hole
That would be an amazing AU. Possibly with the fact that Nora has turned to crime to save Victor being a plot twist.
I’m surprised there hasn’t been (to my knowledge) a story where victor is made a member of the suicide squad, given how easily his moral grayness and dedication to nora (not unlike deadshot and his daughter) make him a good fit for the task force X
"How do you expect us to put a bomb in his head? He's wearing a helmet, it's clearly impossible!"
@@SimonBuchanNz Amanda Waller, you know you can rig the suit right?
@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec Ridiculous! There's a "warranty void if removed" sticker over the screws, what do you expect us to do!
I could totally see Waller forcing Freeze to join under threat that if he doesn’t she’ll pull the plug on Nora. I actually thought Peter Capaldi was potentially gonna play Freeze in The Suicide Squad when images of him on set came out, I thought the bald head + crazy eyebrows might’ve meant he was playing a 60’s inspired Freeze
That's been my headcanon pitch for a few years now: "Mr. Freeze in Suicide Squad."
An interesting realignment for the Mr. Freeze character with a lot of different directions to go.
To bad it will never happen.
12:20
Victor: He's a Brilliant Scientist!
Nora: But an Average Fighter...
in Defense of "She's Old enough to be your grand mother." in that Comic arc... I think it was to drive home the fact that she'd been preserved longer than Victor had been alive... to say nothing of being from another time
I remember some fanfic I read forever ago that actual gives Victor and Nora a happy ending. She's revived and forgives Victor for his crimes and Victor is working to reduce his sentence.
Sounds good
What a magnificent episode! It was because of the DCAU story of Mr Freeze that I love the possibilities for him as a character; not necessarily a full villain, but as a complicated antagonist. I was unaware of just how much story there was regarding Nora (and how disappointing many of them were) but it was fun to learn and discover the good ones. It is amazing that a seemingly background plot device can turn into a full fledged character that is used in every form of media. This might be my favorite episode!
I feel like The Animted Series did it so well it should be left alone golden. They could extend her story through after his sacrifical death, turn Nora into an anti-hero who wants to make amends for Victor's actions while at the same time avenging the things that caused it.
Now I really want Nora to be around long enough to have her own character. And I really enjoy the "villain couple that are happy together" thing, too. I might have to write some of that... As for OFMD, I haven't seen it but it's conquered my social media feeds. 🤣
The problem with the Nora Fries story is the same problem comics have in general: the economics of comic books require ongoing narratives which never resolve themselves. The story of Nora Fries works in the original material because the narrative has a beginning and an end. It's self-contained and tells a compelling story which feels emotionally real. But mainstream comics are just soap operas for nerds, which means no storylines can ever be allowed to end. They have to go back to the well over and over and over again, telling and retelling the same story to extract every penny of profit from the concept until it has lost all its original impact.
There are characters where you can keep reinventing them and nothing is lost. The Joker, for example. But Nora Fries is tied to a narrative which _requires_ there to be a cohesive arc, where Mr. Freeze's origin is satisfyingly complex. To keep reinventing him they have to destroy the narrative. Just like Nora Fries herself, the beauty must remain forever frozen for it to remain compelling.
I think this is true as it exists, but I can't think it needs to be this way.
It's entirely possible to tell stories that don't resolve because they simply keep progressing the canon, but you need to have and keep having good ideas. Which is hard for one good writer, let alone dozens of mediocre writers.
Case in point: the Mr and Mrs Freeze villain couple story could have been good for a decade or two of stories, but only gets a single issue.
I think there's some movement towards fixing this with selling trades as labeled mostly self contained stories becoming a trend, one that I'm well in favor of.
@@SimonBuchanNz I think the MCU is starting to creak under the weight of its own accumulating canon, although it is thankfully limited by the actual age of its actors who, unlike comic book characters, are not immortal. DC, on the other hand, after turning its attempt to mimic the MCU into a raging dumpster fire, has been a lot more willing to take chances on self-contained stories with no or few connections to larger canon.
Why am I discussing films when the subject at hand is comics? Because neither Marvel nor DC are making money publishing comics these days. Their _best_ titles break even, and most of their lineups lose money hand over fist. They exist solely as a test bed for creating new content to be turned into movies. So as the films go, so too will go the comics.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace what's your source for comics not doing well? A quick Google shows about 50% growth over the last 10 years, which doesn't sound like a failing business.
I think the change is the audience is shifting to people who prefer digital, which makes tracking physical sales make things look worse than they are.
And obviously merch is where the real money is...
But overall, yeah, I'm pretty unsure about the state of writing in both comics and comic movies. There doesn't seem to be a strong editorial vision other than "what works" - even the MCU which built itself on an editorial vision seems to be in "throw things at the wall and see what sticks" mode at the moment. Hopefully the Doctor Strange movie will give us a bit more framing for what's going on at least.
@@SimonBuchanNz Check out circulation numbers over the last 75 years. In the 1950s and 1960s, top comics routinely sold 10 million+ copies, and a comic which sold less than a million was considered a flop. These days a comic which sells over 100,000 copies would be regarded as a smash hit. I'm sure you're aware that Marvel actually went bankrupt in the 90s, while DC experienced an implosion that saw almost their entire lineup eliminated except for a handful of their most popular titles.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace sure, but they had less titles, far lower price and no digital sales. Certainly they're not doing as well as then, but not clearly by an order of magnitude or so. I'd have to do the numbers on inflation etc.
I guess what I meant was why do you think they're barely breaking even? Even at lower volumes like 5k units they should be making an alright margin, by some back of a napkin, pulling numbers out my ass arithmetic. That can change based on the numbers I don't have of course, but they seem to keep selling them at that volume, and even lower.
The AU Nora so far seems the most interesting. At the very least, the art alone portrays a lot of personality. Though the idea of the Mr and Mrs
Freeze power villain couples also sounds like a fun idea I wish got more exploration.
This season on the Flash, reformed Frost and Chillbaine are dating, if that counts!
Too bad they the storyline moved so fast and they did not do more as a couple. I don't think the writers were really that interested in the villain couple idea at least not in the long term.
Favourite version of Nora is definitely the DCAU for the perspective of a villain relationship where the significant other could be interpreted as not aligning on the same moral compass but still respecting Victor's plight. Plus the idea of her having a moving on period albeit short lived.
The Scott Snyder one I remember being strongly against it intially as for much of the New 52 at that point but now on hindsight I would like to see how that could've been played had Nora come out of cryostasis.
I think for me in general seeing them having to deal with the reprocussions of Victor's action, be it if she was consenting with the cryostasis or not, is the story that always intrigued me when they go down the route of freeing her but having it be reactionary instant breakup or instant partners in crime leaves a lot of development that I'd rather see instead.
As for Our Flags Means Death hadn't heard of it.
Wow…they literally haven’t matched let alone topped the DCAU’s initial origin. Like it’s kinda impressive how bad most of these retellings of her are.
Guess classics are classics for a reason.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it
I honestly think Arkham Knight gave us the perfect Victor and Nora ending. Heart breaking, but emotionally complete.
I appreciate your dedication to the craft by doing the entire Nora Fries episode with a cold.
Lol it was meant to be
That revived Nora whose relationship with Victor is strained but still has history and she’s stuck in the perpetual freeze he is is so compelling. It makes for so much more exciting content for Mr. Freeze than the other ideas since his marriage has pros and cons since they love each other but she’s mad that he doesn’t realize that he deprived her of agency. Plus a supervillain named Mrs. Freeze sounds kinda cool, you rarely see any supervillainesses who have the gumption to put Mrs. in their name (except for Dr. Mrs. The Monarch from Venture Brothers who was proud to put her doctorate status and her marital status on her title)
My personal preference for Mr & Mrs Fries would be a moderately villainous but healthy relationship with personal conflict but also an underlying sense of love with some sort of reason for them to carry on being villains instead of just happily retiring.
However, if I were to try to use her separate from Victor I would introduce her in Batman Beyond after Victor's death and her motivation would be a similar kind of obssession to his where she's trying to bring him back to life or time travel back to be with him.
6:13 and 23:04 I honestly can't help but feel like everything that pertains to Nora Fries in these two statements, can also be applied to Elsa. The idea of an eternally beautiful woman, whose charm and characteristics are admirable, yet at the same time, unattainable to others.
I winced and rolled my eyes when Nora became "Mrs. Freeze" but I actually started really liking the idea of Mr and Mrs Freeze Villan team. Especially the Dominant Nora who turns out is way into this villan thing. Would love to see her more in comics with Mr. Freeze.
Yeah, at first glance it seemed like a seriously cringe-y concept, but then it turned out to actually be wasted potential that should've been used as a more long-term thing.
I love the DCAU comic continuation. It gives Freeze time to truly be a new man, to move on from his past mistakes, as if working to become the man Nora loved, which allows them to be hapoy together once and for all. And I love Nora showing she's willing to go as far as Freeze did for her to save him in turn. It's really sweet and an amazing rendition of both characters.
Never watched Our Flag Means Death but I did make it all the way to the end of this vid!! Magnificent and concise history lesson as always, Sasha!!
The DCAU version of Nora is the one I gravitate to most. The little notions that both, would do anything for one another is what makes them work. I think, had she been given enough time, she might’ve just done enough bad to be on par with Victor. Just to see him again. Hoping that one day, a warm hand would meet hers.
Loving the longer video format!
Mr. Freeze is the villain that makes you ask yourself what you would do for love.
Honestly them being a villain power couple would be super cool!
I had to keep from busting out laughing from that "Another One" line, also I am always enchanted by Sasha's styles of hair and outfits
This is an incredible episode. Well done Sasha! The music, the outfit and amount of research you must've done is greatly appreciated
💯 Agree 🖖🏾
The initial DCAU tie in comics are hands down my favorite take on Nora.
I would like to see a Mr. and Mrs. Freeze villian combo, where it's good for a little while but Victor starts to not really care about the villiany and even starts to not like it, while Nora seems to enjoy the new life but she's doing it because she thinks he likes it and really doesn't care too much about it. After some big plot and batman stopping them they both tell the other that they don't like the villiany, fake their own deaths, and settle down in the artic, or alaska, which ever works.
I never realised just how often Nora has been spoken about.
I do kind of love her villain arc. It’s so crazy
Wow - that was a phenomenal amount of research! I was hooked all the way through. Thank you ♥
💯 Agree 🖖🏾
Great breakdown of a character who's often thought of as an instigating macguffin rather than a person in her own right! Also; Our Flag Means Death is amazing, and I can hardly wait for more of it!
Thanks for the longer video. Perfect chore companion.😁
I know this is an older video of yours but its still really good! I grew up with the dcau cartoons and always enjoyed noras story. For all the bad arkham knight as a game can sometimes do with its plot, the mr freeze dlc was fantastic. The voice actors especially sell the pain and suffering of the whole situation, especially kevin conroy who knows so well when to make batman sound more sympathetic and gentle. RIP to the legend
There was never any need to fix something that wasn't broken. The attempt during the DCAU era to revive Nora and then have her start to try to live her own life thinking her husband is dead, only to return to him because she only married her current one out of gratitude and now wants to pick up where she left off, was a good starting point for further development. As she learns what Victor did while she was frozen in stasis, she struggles to come to terms with the fact the man she married isn't quite there anymore, and she has to choose whether to accept who he is now or try to revive the man she married, and he tries to reform for her sake but thinks he can't because of his crimes. Maybe they go through a trial separation so she can find herself, and she ends up choosing to be with him no matter what. And whatever path Victor chooses, good or evil, we see ongoing, complex storytelling about how it affects their relationship and where the two of them should go.
No notes whatsoever on your Batman voice. Perfection.gif.
Oh man, just noticed the effect on the Freeze voice too! So good.
I really like it when Mr. Freeze is in a loving relationship with Nora but another part of me really likes Nora not being totally happy about his actions and even upset with him about it.
It plays up Mr. Freeze's obsessiveness and gives Nora a little more of her own personality while playing with the concept of how would you like to die knowing you have a very limited amount of time left.
Would you accept it and just spend it with friends and family or doing everything to save yourself no matter how unlikely?
I haven't watched Our Flag Means Death, but I have spent the last month slowly working my way through your archive and enjoying these deep dives into character histories. I've never been more than a casual fan of DC or Marvel, and it's always a shock to me to learn how many different versions of these characters there are.
My favorite version of Nora is definitely the DCAU tie-ins (the ones NOT written by Dini), I liked that _Gotham Adventures_ and _Batman Adventures_ actually gave her a character and personality.
Yes, I stayed through the whole video. I truly appreciate you taking the time to do an in-depth dive. I truly enjoy every video you make and truly appreciate what you do for your channel.
Tomasi's treatment of Mr. Freeze in his Detective Comics run is awesome. I would have enjoyed seeing that play out more fully. It was undone in the back-up stories in the first few issues of Urban Legends. :(
I love Nora. Was always obsessed with her when she was just a fridged wife of a mad man. Great to see her character explored in so many ways. Thanks for sharing. I knew a lot of this already but definitely leaned more by watching
I had never even heard of Our Flag Means Death until watching this video. I’m always learning things on your channel, thanks Sasha!
Also, while the DACU origin is iconic, I feel that since Nora isn’t always someone I see a lot of (most times frozen when I do) I don’t mind different approaches being taken with her character. I knew about her as Lazara from many years ago perusing Wikipedia, but I don’t know how I didn’t realize or remember that she had been shattered into pieces and that’s the main reason why she became infused with Lazarus properties. What a gnarly concept… *shudder*.
I have not seen that movie. Great video about Mr. Freeze's Girl in the Fridge. The trope which added depth to Mr. Freeze.
Fantastic video...I love, love, love these kinds of retrospectives.
I'm a sucker for redemption arcs and bittersweet but hopeful endings. I loved the idea of Nora being cured, but Mr. Freeze having to let her go...and being happy with that. I really liked how things went in the DCAU continutity.
I could have been on board with the Rebirth version if it hadn't made the fact that Freeze froze her in the first place so clearly an evil act in itself. They could have made it a selfish and bad act without it being such a black and white total violation. I would have been much happier if her death had been much more imminent and Nora wasn't in a position to advocate for herself but Freeze knew that she'd already accepted her death and yet froze her anyway because he couldn't accept it. That's still horrible and wrong so Nora would still have plenty of reason to be angry with him and upset about the whole situation in general, but it's not a huge leap that a basically decent person might rationalize doing something like that in desperation if she's not capable of arguing with him about whether "I've accepted my death." was intended to meant "I'm so committed to dying that I wouldn't change it if I could." But her having so much time left means it wasn't a heat of the moment thing that means time pressure wasn't clouding his judgement and her outright begging him not to do it leaves no room at all for ambiguity about how he might have thought she'd feel about it.
I would have forgiven the Rebirth version all that, though, if it hadn't also turned Nora into a cacklingly evil lunatic in the end. I would have enjoyed an exploration of Nora working through her situation...there were was so much potential and they did the least interesting thing they could have possibly done with it outside of simply turning her back into a popsicle.
Now that you mentioned it can you do a deep dive on Maxie Zeus? I feel like there’s something about his character that could be more interesting to portray in a live action property than some of the other dc villains we’ve seen.
Just a couple weeks ago I was thinking that Nora’s story would make a perfect casually comics video. And boy it exceeded my expectations
BTAS is the best of Nora and Victor. They dont need to be a bad couple they dont need to be cliche. Its a sad and beautiful story.
This such a dope video! She's always interested me, but you rarely get to see her. This definitely satisfied all my curiosities about her
I know this video is about Nora, but I would like to take a moment to point out how quintessentially Mike Mignola his original DCAU design was. Sharp, angular shiloette that's a signature of him and paul dini, contrasted with rounded elements in the suit, the tank, the shoulders, the dome... and that dome! A perfect choice. At once both retro-futirust like th whole art deco feel of the original series but also showcasing both the humanity still at his core and the isolation inside. No faceless helmet or fully exposed head. A perfect blend of vulnerability and distance. And the inherent fragility of the glass. But we can't sympathize too much, so the goggles..the perfectly round perfectly Mignola goggles. They hide his eyes, keep him unknowable, enforcing that coldness and distance...but not in an inherently menacing or angry way that more angled eye pieces might imply. Again, roundness against the straight edges of the sides of his head and his angular nose and jaw. It says a lot about the character without a word spoken. It's a look that at once blends perfectly with the aesthetic of the show, but also the second you're told who designed it you KNOW it's true, you see all the hallmarks.
Frankly, the ultra-angular redesign later on made a hash of it. I think the whole show suffered from that redesign but Freeze especially. It sucked out all of his humanity and vulnerability. Suddenly he's hulking and sharp edged, mean-eyed, menacing in a hot active way rather than a cold brooding sense. No more do you get the sense of a brilliant, sensitive man under all the ice and glass and regret. Nope, now just another villain. A thug with a gimmick.
ART IS IMPRTANT, PEOPLE!
I love the perspective the general conversation you are generating by bringing up all the goodness that comes from this character and ll your other vids. Its good shit. Glad you're doing it
Sometimes the comics give nora freeze the cold shoulder.
Thank you for this retrospective Sasha! I've always been curious about Nora, but never really "delved" into her. I'm always grateful for your content educated me in Comics. Haven't watched that show yet, but maybe I will in the future!
If the DCAU was looked at through the lense of words like scary, obsessive or possessive then Bruce Timms fetish of Batgirl would get a lot more criticism
A lot of villains have the origin or an episode where they hyper-obsess over a woman who ends up not being interested and go down an evil path because they just want to objectify her. Most notably the Mad Hatter’s origin. Then there was Rat Boy in Batman Beyond or the guy who terrified his ex-wife to death in Justice League.
As much as I LOVE that Universe... You're not wrong.
A Fair amount of Treatment towards the Female Characters is probably what's Aged the Worst about the DCAU to say the least.
@@Nightman221k also their take on the Creeper in New Batman Adventures was basically a freakazoid rip off chasing Harley. Still nothing compared to Timms decades long obsession with pairing Batgirl with batman and while she may not be underage in this continuety it's an abuse of power dynamics just to start. Then the whole idea that that she had a miscarriage and that's used as motivation why batman and Nightwing don't talk. Or that the killing joke (where Batgirl already lacks agency) needed rooftop sex hook ups
@@indie-mox7473 Not all of them. Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy and Leslie Thompkins were great. Hell, even Renee Montoya wasn't that bad. It's the villains' 'morality pet' love interests that ended up taking the shaft
It's so funny when you do your Batman voice! 😂
Great video - detailed and balanced yet still interesting. You are consistently good at this.
This is so damn cool
This was an amazing video and it's these kinds of deep dives that make me love your channel. As a BTAS fan, I've always loved Mr. Freeze and his new origin, so I find this very interesting.
Oh and what makes Nora's Arrowverse Elseworlds appearance even more random is that she was played by Stephen Amell's wife.
Oh and yes, I have seen Our Flag Means Death and I quite enjoyed it.
I hate the idea of Victor being crazy beforehand. I like the loving couple concept.
I could not stop laughing about BLACK BEARD being dressed like the ROAD WARRIOR.
P.S.
I love your vids
Yeah, I always get a bit teary eyed when watching that scene from the Arkham Knight DLC too!
Her inclusion into Freeze’s origin is one of the best things Batman TAS did (one of the many best things lol), but yeah, I do like it when her side of things is explored a bit more.
I’m glad Snyder’s version didn’t stick around. His Batman run is one of my favorites, but I didn’t really like his twist on Freeze’s origin, personally.
Really hoping we see the Fries’ (or Freezes) in one of Reeves’ Batman movies. He’s mentioned Mr. Freeze as an interesting villain in interviews, and so it would be cool to see what kind of chilling tale he would tell about them!
i commented on the community post asking if we could expect a retrospective and my prayers have been answered 🤲🏽
This is exactly what I needed this Saturday morning. I finished Harley Quinn and I was extremely curious to Nora's history and now I'll know!
I love your voice over for Mr. Freeze. Hilarious! My favorite Freeze tale is the BTAS one written by Paul Dini.
I think the big reason behind the change in The Adventures Continue was due to Paul Dini and Bruce Timm not working in Sub-Zero. It was directed by Boyd Kirkland, and they strongly disagreed with having Nora live. So once Dini and Alan Burnett got to write in The Adventures Continue, they decided to "fix" that by killing Nora off-screen and using her as a device once again.
Great retrospective. Mr. Freeze is one of my favorite Batman baddies and I honestly didnt know Nora had this much back story. Thank you
I always liked Rocksteady's Mr Freeze, and the Arkham Knight DLC is such a fitting way to end his story, Nora being the only person who could stop him.
I seriously can't be the only one who actually likes the twist with Victor in The New 52? It actually is a nice change of pace from the usual, what was Victor in The Batman
I have not watch "Our Flag Means death" but will be checking it out soon! Loved the video, I do hope they can bring some nuance into the villain Nora in the (time of commenting) future!
I watched the whole thing. Got here after discovering the Harley series and running into the clip of Freeze sacrificing himself, which shocked me given how significant that is and coming from a show like Harley Quinn.
I really like the Mrs. Freeze version of Nora, her design is really cool, and I feel that if her story and feelings weren't as rushed she would be better remembered
I have been waiting for this one for SOOOOOOOOO long! I love it!