Paul let it be known that for me your channel is the most important channel in RUclips , I can’t thank you enough for this amazing work and all these conversations that you have with your distinguished guests. May Allah Bless you
What a lively and interesting discussion on the topic of secularism. The basic point is the freedom of secularism starts where ours end. And to enforce their freedom any means can be used. They know better what is good for society than anyone else. The devastation of their agenda can be seen all over the world. Hold on to your faith, its about to get rockier.
The reason why Muslim women who cover are not extended the courtesy of doing so according to their own determination when operating in a secular system like that in France is because their act of modesty challenges the commodification agenda. In other words, it is a visible sign of resistance against the secular capitalist system where everything is defined according to its material benefit and interest.
1:08:04 I just finished chapter 5 of "The Impossible State". It is truly an eye-opening analysis of the modern nation-state and Islamic governance. Highly recommended for every Muslim.
This was a fantastic presentation, I listened to this three times over 3 days at work!... thoroughly enjoyed this and insightful.... was a great continuation to the previous session and exploring one of the books further!... I hope you can do another session exploring the other books further!... Love this brother.
Paul, I’m glad you asked about Muslims in America. I live in Minnesota and in my experience it’s true that most of my non-Muslim peers are totally or almost totally unaware of what Islam and Sharia are or what they would look like in practical applications. The most comforting solution for me is connection with the nearest Masjid 🕌, and Muslim community, as well as podcasts on Islam such as yours. I do feel a disconnect from the majority everyday Americans because I feel like I understand where they’re coming from, their lifestyle and values, however they don’t know or understand what I believe while thinking they do. Mind you the disconnect manifests as respectful distance, mostly. Of course there’s intelligent well read Americans you come across everywhere (I’ve lived in many states) but overwhelmingly it’s honestly the strangest phenomena I’ve ever encountered in which something is plainly there, and can certainly be understood if one wishes, but that natural human curiosity is somehow halted in its infancy due to the effects of Islam’s portrayal everywhere. The paradox of believing yourself to be free yet you’re in fact being robbed of your right to know the truth about what Islam is, your right to see a different or alternative paradigm, honestly it’s baffling and one of the greatest magic shows I think I’ll ever, ever witness.
Superb! We need more Imams like Imam Tom-Masha’Allah-who have the ability to respond to the challenges of our modern times with deep understanding, wisdom, and insight. I do hope you’ll make Imam Tom a regular on your channel.
you both are doing a great service to us by distilling and providing a condensed, structured understanding to the dysfunctionality of our environment. my dissatisfaction of not being able to provide an out of the box analysis in clear words or having the time to study in detail the origins of our paradigm (I work as a doctor) is significantly reduced. JazakAllah
I only discovered this channel a few months ago.! This is my favorite episode so far! I read a chapter from Formations of the Secular when I was grad school. AT the time, I foundit really dense but also very interesting and important. I sure wish this or something similar had been here several years when I was in grad school! I hope you revsit the subject of Asad and secularism again inshallah!
Assalam-o-alaikum Paul brother as you mentioned slogan "My body, my choice" same slogans with Urdu words "Mera jisam, meri marzi" in Pakistan by womens activists every year...
Another book that should be read is an even earlier book by Syed Muhammad Naquib al-Attas, “Islam and Secularism". You can also refer to his “Prologemena".
Jazakallahukhairan to both brothers for such an interesting and engaging discussion to otherwise a very heavy subject.. May ALLAH SWT grants you both the Highest Jannah Ameen
Related to your much needed discussion on the redefinition of the role of the state in a secular society: during the Great Depression when the Roosevelt government started a massive expansion of the role of the state in the 30s there was resistance from some economists in 40s which eventually came to be known as the Austrian school of economics, mainly because many of the economists who shared this view happened to be from Austria. One of the most prominent figures in this school was Ludwig Von Mises, who wrote Human Action, which was about the influence of this expansion on the psychology of the masses. You find a term in his book that is very relevant to your discussion: statolatry, like idolatry but basically worship of the state.
Thank you brother Paul for another fascinating and educational discussion. Around 40 minutes time, Imam Tom started speaking about how technology is changing the way Muslim approached the deen, previously when the knowledge was not as widespread people used to rely on authority figures, now people quickly ask for a Daleel directly from Quran and Sunnat and this was not how Islamic traditions used to be. I think Imam Tom couldn't finish his thoughts I would love for him to get into details. Salam-o-Alekum
Most perceptive of you, Faisal. Not just technology, but how our shifting (modern) subjectivity has repercussions on how we interact with and live our deen. My tentative hunch is that the modern self has done a few things to us. 1. Made us overconfident in our ability to access, understand, and interpret the Revelation (autonomous self) 2. Made us overemphasize the textual parts of our tradition over the oral/personal There are probably others. I've carried this hunch with me for a while but it was invigorated by Hallaq's brief tangent in Restating Orientalism on the role of orality in subject formation as opposed to written text. This is not to say that we don't have textualism in our tradition, obvious this is premodern and indigenous. This is also not to say that we didn't have very good push factors that helped us arrive at this historical moment. Abuse of authority in more personal-authority-based situations, the spread of superstition and innovation certainly set the stage for a major swing toward skepticism and textuality. It seems to me that the shift is one of degree. Allah knows best.
@@TomFacchine Thank you for taking the time out for explanation. To add to your explanation. I think, because of technology, we are in an era of rebuttals and counter arguments, hoarding Karma points, likes\dislikes. This is an era of manufacturing narrative - there's pressure to be right even if perceived to be right. Therefore, a lot of times, people prioritize hoarding knowledge over that of understanding. You can gain knowledge from the text but to gain understanding - you need to go to people and spend time listening, it's a slow, long and often frustrating process a lot of times. And even if you spent years learning the Deen from some of the most knowledgeable Shayukh and have built credential for yourself, a jackass with Internet connection and very little understanding will try to rebut your argument to gain clout for his channel. I personally encourage people to get in touch with local communities and connect with Muslim in their community specially knowledgeable Muslim. There's so much you could learn from the books but what you can learn from knowledgeable people is limitless. That's just my two Rupees. JazakAllah Khair
MashAllah brother Paul, I always enjoy your videos! Your channel is my favorite on RUclips! May Allah S.W.T bless you and continue to grow this channel.
Related to your recommendation for Plato's Republic, I highly suggest The Dark Side of Democracy by Micheal Mann a very academic but eye opening look at the inherent link between majority rule and genocide.
Excellent discussion of reality. MashaAllah. Beautifully explained the process of secularization almost seems as a default phenomenon. Need desecularization of the globally. Thanks/Jkkk. Asma.
Interesting point on the emphasis on proof when it comes to fiqh. That is definitely a change, though I believe a positive one. I love how pleased the sheikh is when Mr. Williams brings up the republic. Also on the topic of surveys. My friend in Egypt recently got called for a survey by a British think tank. I listened to the recording and it was funny how often it was clear someone in Europe or America sat down wrote these questions, had them officially translated and then this guy asks my friend who doesn't understand what the heck they're talking about.
Alhumdulillah, the playlist with Imam Tom and the books that he is discussing w/ Br Paul have been helping me get more "meta", which is important if one wants to be a thinking Muslims in a world swimming in Western Modernity. May Allah bless you both and all of the Muslims. Lol at the naivety of the "Captain Kirk/ Star Trek Odyssey" view of the world, and "incompleteness of Liberal Project" being the source of our problems. Dunya-inspired utopian visions will always fail.
Couldnt imagine the amount of hard work these two have out into making this easy for us Quran and Sunnah exposes the hypocrisy of society Thats why its a miracle/soloution in all times even a billion years from today A book of soloutions and problem solving!!!
"Secularism is a belief system that rejects religion, or the belief that religion should not be part of the affairs of the state or part of public education. The principles of separation of church and state and of keeping religion out of the public school system are an example of secularism."
The state should be neutral with regard of religions. It gives a framework ideally in human rights, democracy but should not support or hinder religions within the rules of law.
@@merlinx8703 That is a problem indeed. The state should for instance not subside churches or any religion. We westerners move in this direction. Let the believers bear all the cost of their belief.
I realized that if I search for Imam Tom Facchine, his talk in Blogging Theology channel would not turn up. Hope you would remedy this by adding his full name.
I know I should read more English books however after reading Arabic books for the last 15 years it’s just really difficult to concentrate for more than 1 or 2 pages after which I feel desperately bored.
it always used to be said (around me) that religion causes more wars than anything else taking war as a form of violence, the violence in Sweden, the violence in France both of which are secular states, can that be caused by religion? and if not, must we at last look for the cause of violence somewhere other than religion? the nation state itself perhaps
as a Muslim living in northeast USA, I agree that it is very difficult to raise Islamically conscious children. And definitely the smartphone and tablet technologies with their apps do not help the situation. At some level, I feel like the "safety" and "prosperity" of the West is the Trojan horse that will destroy most North American Muslims. Within one generation of immigrating, we have watered down Islam so much already.
could you elaborate what you mean? Do you mean that he wrote his book in refutation of his fathers ideas, or did his fathers modernist views influence his views?
@@ninaaden8338 1. Blindly? 2. evolved from monkey? Evolution is a scientific fact. Adam, the “first” human never existed, nor was he created by different stuffs by god, whatever the man-made quran says. Humans appeared through Evolution (natural selection and random DNA changes creating a variety of life forms) and not through the created couple adam and eve (from clay and water, dust etc), i.e., a myth copied into the quran from the bible, an idea originated in Mesopotamia. The actual homo sapiens exists only for about 200’000 years, originating from humanoids with an evolution history of 2 to 4 million years. All living creature has an evolutionary origin. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution and as an illustration: ruclips.net/video/HpXaiG8L28s/видео.html. An important mystery exists yet, that is the appearance and origin of life itself, in its simplest form. But scientists are working on the problem. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). Nina's comment disappeared ?
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? ) Quran 2:62 '' Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians->ANYAllah< Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques ) Quran 22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, " Our Lord is God " And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, God is Powerful and Exalted in Might. Note: Why did Allah protected Churches and Synagogues if they worship false Allah ? ( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? ) Quran 5 48 ''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a single nation.( ie single religion ) But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you (ie Scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you '' >DISPUTE verb < not noun like other religions Islam mean "submission" to God ( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the >MUSLIM< and the Non-Muslims but total "submission" to God ) Question: How Can Muslim And the Non-Muslim "submit" to the God? Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work. Note: If you obeyed all the ABOVE Allah-God's moral laws "YOU" submitted to God.( ie Islam mean "submission" to God ) The only people who will enter Paradise those who '' Submitted to God '' ( ie by Good Deeds ) God does NOT accept your religion of birth but only ''Your Total'' Submission to Him. ( God Allows Interfaith Marriages And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa ) Quran 5:5 ''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And lawful in marriage are chaste women from among the believers (ie Muslim ) and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers.'' Note: > Only < Islam allows interfaith marriages (>14 hundredsSame God< but They are >ALL Corrupt< more or less, some more than others from their original foundational teaching. The older religion are MORE corrupted than newer religion. Question to Muslim and Christian: Does God / Allah only answer your pray ? And God / Allah does not answer non Muslim / non Christian pray? Did Allah '' Canceled '' all other religions Judaism and Christianity? Quran 5:48 '' And We have revealed to you [O Muhammad] the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture ( ie New and old Testament ) and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. >>>TO EACH OF YOU WE PRESCRIBED A LAW AND A METHODone nation>differ qualified < for to enter Paradise ) On the day of judgement God will ''NOT'' judge humanity bases on Sunni Muslim sect VS Shia Muslim sect ''NOR'' by Muslim VS non-Muslim >but< Doer of Goods VS Doer of Evils. '' YOUR " birth in the Muslim's family is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise. '' YOUR " religion / sect / foot long beard is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise. The > qualification < to enter Paradise is > Faith in God and Good Work
May I invite people to think a little critically? You cant have people you agree with and put this nonsense out. at 19.26 my body my choice and everything belongs to God, is abhorrent at best. Of course, everything belongs to God, but then He gave the woman every right to decide what she wants to do with her body. This is moronic at best.
I don't see anything particularly thoughtful about your comment. You assert that it is nonsense, abhorrent, moronic, but the only substantive point you have is that there might not be a contradiction between everything belonging to God and a woman "deciding what she wants to do with her body." That might be an interesting line of inquiry we could pursue, if you are willing to proceed with manners. You said "He [God] gave the woman every right to decide." This is an assertion you have made, what evidence do you have to support this?
@@TomFacchine Hello sir, What you guys are saying is infuriating at best. You are late comers to islam and do not have full grasp of it necessarily. But there are two arguments to be made here. 1) God made a human and will judge him/her based on his/her actions in this world. He has defined a path and based on if I follow or not follow that path is mine and consequences are also mine. So a person can do what they want with their body, wealth, mind and bear the consequences. If you or someone else is holding me accountable in this world then you have replaced the authority of God and thus are in error. 2) Secondly, you can not talk about this in only islamic perspective because you live in a pleural society and this pleural society has decided to operate under secular principle i.e. that you can follow whatever principle in your personal space but when it comes to public space and governance we will keep our personal feelings where they belong. We wont suppress a muslim from practicing his religion or a LGBT person or a feminist from practicing their beliefs and practices. So I do not really understand what is that is wrong with this principle. If someone does not like that principle and would rather live in Saudi or Pakistan, you can do Hijra and buy a one way ticket. 3) Thirdly so lets us say you do not want secularism what are you going to replace it by. You want Shariah and oppress others (pakistan/India/Mynamar), Christians would want their principles to be applied. Whose principle are we going to apply. If you apply islamic principle that would mean 1200 years of mostly harsh kingships, why is that better. You cant simply critique something without giving an alternative.
@@RWOOFKASHMIRI Infuriated might be how you feel, but obviously that is your subjective feeling and has nothing to do with our discussion. Thanks for the otherwise earnest response. I apologize in advance that I do not know your religion if you indeed profess any at all. If I knew, I could tailor my answer more to what you believe. But since you found fault in me for being a 'late-comer to Islam,' I will assume that you are a Muslim. Sorry if that is mistaken. 1) If what you say is true, then God was mistaken to have revealed legal punishments in the Quran (or the Old Testament, etc) to be exacted on people who commit certain crimes in this world. Rather, Allah said "Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate." (4:105) Punishing someone in this world does not necessarily imply assuming the position of God and judging them. We can punish people according to God's revealed law without holding any conviction as to how God will judge them in the afterlife. We can easily apply the law and leave the judgment to God. 2) Society has not 'decided' to live under secular principles. Society is not a person who has agency. Society is a creation of the secular state, one that is created, ordered, and policed by the state through legal violence. The secular state gets to decide what is "religion," what are legitimate "religious practices," what is "private," and what is "public," etc. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. are all secular states. The state decides what religion is acceptable or not and when the state wants to change a religion to fit its aims, it can change it. In Saudi Arabia, for example, the state controls all the Islamic universities as well as the curriculum of all secondary schools. The state gets to define what Islam is and isn't. They changed the textbooks to redefine Islam according to state interests. The secular state does this for all religions. 3) You are equating secularism with tolerance, which is a mistake. Tolerance is great, but secularism does not have a monopoly, nor is it even an exemplar of tolerance. For the majority of Muslim history, Shariah law provided more tolerance for religious minorities than secularism. Shariah law never tried to change the definition of other religions or how those people thought about their religion. It didn't produce an altered version of Christianity or Hinduism that was in line with the interests of the Shariah and then tell its followers that this was the TRUE Christianity/Hinduism.
@@TomFacchine Dear friend the reason you and I are able to hold opposing views is because we live in a secular society. Secular society allows personal expression without the imposition of one's views on others. If we lived in a religious society then we cant express our faith in a place that is governed by the law that is not Islamic. You can not establish religious places that are not endorsed by that state. e.g. Saudi Arabia where you can not build churches or temples. similarly, if America was a Christian state you won't be allowed to build a mosque. I will be killed in Pakistan or Afghanistan for debating with you about Shariah law. Even if we want to implement Islamic law which one will you choose, shia, maliki, hanafi, shafi, mutazili etc. We will have no consensus to be able to do any of these sharia systems. Allow me to also wake you up regarding the Islamic state that you might fantasize about. Please do not forget that Usma, Ali, Hassan, Hussain were brutally killed by the Islamic state that you propose. May I go on a limb and state that you are wanting a religious state (Khilafah). What then differentiates you from AlQaeda or ISIS. Do you sympathize with them?
@@RWOOFKASHMIRI completely unsubstantiated. You think secularism has a monopoly on tolerance and that is simply not historically or even theoretically true. You're failing to follow, let alone engage any of the points I've made here regarding what secularism is (Saudi Arabia is a secular state), what a "state" is (premodern Islamic empires are not states! This is anachronistic.), as well as the points brought up in the video, which it doesn't seem you've watched. I don't see the use in further dialogue. There are books such as those mentioned in the video if you want to educate yourself and challenge your views. Good day.
Contrary to "Imam Tom's" assertion, secularism is ABSOLUTELY about celebrating your religion in private and not killing each other in public. It IS that simple. It has worked very well in the West, until people started arriving who are unwilling to comply, people who want to take THEIR religion out into the public sphere, who want exemptions and or special treatment, who want to introduce THEIR religious laws into the secular jurisprudence. 🤦
Really, Sir Knight Moody? Is that your definition of secularism? Do study a bit of the secularism of Ibn Khaldun, Father of modern sociology and history, as well as Averroes/Ibn Rushd who also helped the “liberated” West come out of their dark ages-so that we all could coexist logically and ethically -regardless of one’s personal proclivities on matters of faith or lifestyles. As far as “killing each other in public,” have you not studied the results of the Spanish Inquisition, or the decimation of the indigenous in the “liberated” west, or the brutalizations of slaves borrowed from the Heart of Africa? Or, the mistreatment of black brothers and sisters by law enforcement in the so-called “pacifist” West nowadays? Are you forgetting which bomb maker, Oppenheimer, helped build the popular bomb that killed off sacred thousands of generations in Japan? That later destroyed rebuilt Iraq, that later wounded Afghanistan and Vietnam and a grand baby of a health provider in Libya? That continues to beat down womanhood for being simply a woman? Are you forgetting that all people must learn to coexist instead of scapegoating a few people your type does not approve of? Thanks. Have a lovely day.
Tom and Paul, a lethal combo to say the least. Barakallahufeekum
Paul let it be known that for me your channel is the most important channel in RUclips , I can’t thank you enough for this amazing work and all these conversations that you have with your distinguished guests. May Allah Bless you
Alhamdulillah
Привет Миша а ты мусульманин?
@@aqe7914 привет да я
@Тургунбек Айкынов Новообращенный хвала Аллаху
😅😊😅😊😊😊😊o😊😊😢😢😊😊😊😊😊😢😢
Love Tom & his analysis on the secular Liberal west. Bring him back for more content please; may Allah bless you both 🤲🏾
Insha'Allah!
What a lively and interesting discussion on the topic of secularism. The basic point is the freedom of secularism starts where ours end. And to enforce their freedom any means can be used. They know better what is good for society than anyone else. The devastation of their agenda can be seen all over the world. Hold on to your faith, its about to get rockier.
The reason why Muslim women who cover are not extended the courtesy of doing so according to their own determination when operating in a secular system like that in France is because their act of modesty challenges the commodification agenda. In other words, it is a visible sign of resistance against the secular capitalist system where everything is defined according to its material benefit and interest.
1:08:04 I just finished chapter 5 of "The Impossible State". It is truly an eye-opening analysis of the modern nation-state and Islamic governance. Highly recommended for every Muslim.
This was a fantastic presentation, I listened to this three times over 3 days at work!... thoroughly enjoyed this and insightful.... was a great continuation to the previous session and exploring one of the books further!... I hope you can do another session exploring the other books further!... Love this brother.
Alhamdulillah!
Paul, I’m glad you asked about Muslims in America. I live in Minnesota and in my experience it’s true that most of my non-Muslim peers are totally or almost totally unaware of what Islam and Sharia are or what they would look like in practical applications.
The most comforting solution for me is connection with the nearest Masjid 🕌, and Muslim community, as well as podcasts on Islam such as yours.
I do feel a disconnect from the majority everyday Americans because I feel like I understand where they’re coming from, their lifestyle and values, however they don’t know or understand what I believe while thinking they do. Mind you the disconnect manifests as respectful distance, mostly.
Of course there’s intelligent well read Americans you come across everywhere (I’ve lived in many states) but overwhelmingly it’s honestly the strangest phenomena I’ve ever encountered in which something is plainly there, and can certainly be understood if one wishes, but that natural human curiosity is somehow halted in its infancy due to the effects of Islam’s portrayal everywhere.
The paradox of believing yourself to be free yet you’re in fact being robbed of your right to know the truth about what Islam is, your right to see a different or alternative paradigm, honestly it’s baffling and one of the greatest magic shows I think I’ll ever, ever witness.
Superb! We need more Imams like Imam Tom-Masha’Allah-who have the ability to respond to the challenges of our modern times with deep understanding, wisdom, and insight. I do hope you’ll make Imam Tom a regular on your channel.
you both are doing a great service to us by distilling and providing a condensed, structured understanding to the dysfunctionality of our environment. my dissatisfaction of not being able to provide an out of the box analysis in clear words or having the time to study in detail the origins of our paradigm (I work as a doctor) is significantly reduced. JazakAllah
Good discussion! I was just in Utica but found out about Imam Tom after my visit.
I only discovered this channel a few months ago.! This is my favorite episode so far! I read a chapter from Formations of the Secular when I was grad school. AT the time, I foundit really dense but also very interesting and important. I sure wish this or something similar had been here several years when I was in grad school! I hope you revsit the subject of Asad and secularism again inshallah!
Sure it is a free high quality lechture
Another excellent discussion on a critical topic on this amazing channel! Alhamdulillah, thank you & may Allah SWT reward you both.
Once again, Paul and Imam Tom are on point! You gentleman bring up some great points. I appreciate your book recommendations as well.
Secularism is a production of certain type religion that is amenable to the secular state.
- Imam Tom
I love that Paul always put out interesting, and intellectual topics I really enjoy. Jazakumullahu khair 🥲
Assalam-o-alaikum
Paul brother as you mentioned slogan "My body, my choice" same slogans with Urdu words "Mera jisam, meri marzi" in Pakistan by womens activists every year...
And what is your problem with it?
I just ordered Talal Asads book in German. Jazakallahu khair 🇹🇷🇩🇪
nice
Another book that should be read is an even earlier book by Syed Muhammad Naquib al-Attas, “Islam and Secularism". You can also refer to his “Prologemena".
Assalamualaikum Wa rahmatullah e wa barakatuhu Brothers and Sisters 😊💕
Excellent again, and Paul's engaging commentary makes it all the more enriching. Al-Hamdu lillah.
Amazing video. I had to repost this on my several social media accounts. Very important and relevant. Thank you once again for a great video.
Something peaceful about this brother Tom. Full of noor Mashaa Allah.
"Secularism is the production of a type of religion that is amenable to the secular state." (1:14:14)
Beautiful discussion as per usual Jazakallah khair brother Paul and Ustadh may Allah swt grant you both Jannatul Firdosa
I'm listening to this whilst I'm in the gym..very insightful I will be purchasing the book thanks
Jazakallahukhairan to both brothers for such an interesting and engaging discussion to otherwise a very heavy subject.. May ALLAH SWT grants you both the Highest Jannah Ameen
Powerful but wonderfully chill and banterly discussion. I enjoyed listening.
Very very helpful and insightful talk. May Allah bless you and your channel Brother Paul
Related to your much needed discussion on the redefinition of the role of the state in a secular society: during the Great Depression when the Roosevelt government started a massive expansion of the role of the state in the 30s there was resistance from some economists in 40s which eventually came to be known as the Austrian school of economics, mainly because many of the economists who shared this view happened to be from Austria. One of the most prominent figures in this school was Ludwig Von Mises, who wrote Human Action, which was about the influence of this expansion on the psychology of the masses. You find a term in his book that is very relevant to your discussion: statolatry, like idolatry but basically worship of the state.
Thank you brother Paul for another fascinating and educational discussion. Around 40 minutes time, Imam Tom started speaking about how technology is changing the way Muslim approached the deen, previously when the knowledge was not as widespread people used to rely on authority figures, now people quickly ask for a Daleel directly from Quran and Sunnat and this was not how Islamic traditions used to be.
I think Imam Tom couldn't finish his thoughts I would love for him to get into details.
Salam-o-Alekum
Most perceptive of you, Faisal.
Not just technology, but how our shifting (modern) subjectivity has repercussions on how we interact with and live our deen.
My tentative hunch is that the modern self has done a few things to us.
1. Made us overconfident in our ability to access, understand, and interpret the Revelation (autonomous self)
2. Made us overemphasize the textual parts of our tradition over the oral/personal
There are probably others. I've carried this hunch with me for a while but it was invigorated by Hallaq's brief tangent in Restating Orientalism on the role of orality in subject formation as opposed to written text.
This is not to say that we don't have textualism in our tradition, obvious this is premodern and indigenous.
This is also not to say that we didn't have very good push factors that helped us arrive at this historical moment. Abuse of authority in more personal-authority-based situations, the spread of superstition and innovation certainly set the stage for a major swing toward skepticism and textuality. It seems to me that the shift is one of degree.
Allah knows best.
@@TomFacchine Thank you for taking the time out for explanation.
To add to your explanation.
I think, because of technology, we are in an era of rebuttals and counter arguments, hoarding Karma points, likes\dislikes. This is an era of manufacturing narrative - there's pressure to be right even if perceived to be right.
Therefore, a lot of times, people prioritize hoarding knowledge over that of understanding. You can gain knowledge from the text but to gain understanding - you need to go to people and spend time listening, it's a slow, long and often frustrating process a lot of times.
And even if you spent years learning the Deen from some of the most knowledgeable Shayukh and have built credential for yourself, a jackass with Internet connection and very little understanding will try to rebut your argument to gain clout for his channel.
I personally encourage people to get in touch with local communities and connect with Muslim in their community specially knowledgeable Muslim. There's so much you could learn from the books but what you can learn from knowledgeable people is limitless.
That's just my two Rupees.
JazakAllah Khair
@@f1aziz excellent observations!
MashAllah brother Paul, I always enjoy your videos! Your channel is my favorite on RUclips! May Allah S.W.T bless you and continue to grow this channel.
Much appreciated!
It's always enjoyable to listen to Mr. Paul & Imam Tom.
Great work brothers Paul and Tom.
Jazakom'Allah khayran
How about Pr. Jeffrey Lang as a guest in the future ?
Hes a perennialist sadly
@@andithanoj8372 Is he? How do you know this?
@@andithanoj8372 wat is a perronilist?
Great videos!!! Really enjoy the discussion.
1:25:38 Just to add the use napalm bombs in the war WWII, Korean, Japan, and Vietnam.
Related to your recommendation for Plato's Republic, I highly suggest The Dark Side of Democracy by Micheal Mann a very academic but eye opening look at the inherent link between majority rule and genocide.
Excellent discussion of reality. MashaAllah. Beautifully explained the process of secularization almost seems as a default phenomenon. Need desecularization of the globally.
Thanks/Jkkk. Asma.
I like this Imam👍🏻
I do too. And I used to live in Buffalo, New York... not far from Utica, NY. Peace
Interesting point on the emphasis on proof when it comes to fiqh. That is definitely a change, though I believe a positive one.
I love how pleased the sheikh is when Mr. Williams brings up the republic.
Also on the topic of surveys. My friend in Egypt recently got called for a survey by a British think tank. I listened to the recording and it was funny how often it was clear someone in Europe or America sat down wrote these questions, had them officially translated and then this guy asks my friend who doesn't understand what the heck they're talking about.
Italian Imam at a Bosnian Masjid 👍😄 Alhamdulilah
Bosnian masjid? Mosques are universal
Learning a lot from this channel - keep up the fantastic work brother Paul :-) ❤️
Thanks, will do!
Alhumdulillah, the playlist with Imam Tom and the books that he is discussing w/ Br Paul have been helping me get more "meta", which is important if one wants to be a thinking Muslims in a world swimming in Western Modernity. May Allah bless you both and all of the Muslims.
Lol at the naivety of the "Captain Kirk/ Star Trek Odyssey" view of the world, and "incompleteness of Liberal Project" being the source of our problems. Dunya-inspired utopian visions will always fail.
بارك الله فيكما ❤
Good work 👍🏻🌷👍🏻
God bless you Paul
Alhamdulillah
He is so knowledgeable mashallah
Mashallah!
I really like this guest.
Paul please also bring Abdullah Al andalusi as a continuation to Imam Tom. A lethal mix
Thank you for this
As-salamu'alaikum
Wa alaykumu s-salam
This discussion full of despair. But nonetheless, it's an eye-opener for all of us. Salam.
Couldnt imagine the amount of hard work these two have out into making this easy for us
Quran and Sunnah exposes the hypocrisy of society
Thats why its a miracle/soloution in all times even a billion years from today
A book of soloutions and problem solving!!!
Excellent
Great talk.
I take hours watching these interviews because I make so many clips for future analyzation.
MashAllah
من يتصدّق علينا بترجمة فيديوهات السيد بول وأجره على الله..
Hello, can you please number these 4 videos so that its easy to follow? Thanks. Amazing stuff as usual.
"Secularism is a belief system that rejects religion, or the belief that religion should not be part of the affairs of the state or part of public education. The principles of separation of church and state and of keeping religion out of the public school system are an example of secularism."
The state should be neutral with regard of religions. It gives a framework ideally in human rights, democracy but should not support or hinder religions within the rules of law.
@@AS-jj4dv nah
@@AS-jj4dv
True
But as Tom said
Some religions are preferred over others
@@merlinx8703 That is a problem indeed. The state should for instance not subside churches or any religion. We westerners move in this direction. Let the believers bear all the cost of their belief.
@@AS-jj4dv Secularism needs better improvement especially in regards to justice
I realized that if I search for Imam Tom Facchine, his talk in Blogging Theology channel would not turn up. Hope you would remedy this by adding his full name.
I know I should read more English books however after reading Arabic books for the last 15 years it’s just really difficult to concentrate for more than 1 or 2 pages after which I feel desperately bored.
ربنا اتمم لنا نور نا و اغفر لنا انك عل كل شي قدير
Subhaanallaah!
it always used to be said (around me) that religion causes more wars than anything else
taking war as a form of violence, the violence in Sweden, the violence in France both of which are secular states, can that be caused by religion? and if not, must we at last look for the cause of violence somewhere other than religion? the nation state itself perhaps
If someone watches all the videos in this channel, they’ll automatically be eligible for a B. A. majoring in theology.
Mashallah 🥰
as a Muslim living in northeast USA, I agree that it is very difficult to raise Islamically conscious children. And definitely the smartphone and tablet technologies with their apps do not help the situation. At some level, I feel like the "safety" and "prosperity" of the West is the Trojan horse that will destroy most North American Muslims. Within one generation of immigrating, we have watered down Islam so much already.
talal asad follows his father's modernist inclinations; it permeates his work.
could you elaborate what you mean? Do you mean that he wrote his book in refutation of his fathers ideas, or did his fathers modernist views influence his views?
I prefer secularism over any religious dogma.
Paul pls invite dr mufti abdul rahman mangera on the miracle of the Quran or the intellectual legacy of Islam
MashaAllah
I wander why Tony player didn't liberate the Jordanian people from the ruthless regeme.
in these times Muslims and those who are believers like them...have to live together....or die alone.
🤲🤲🤲👍🌹
❤️❤️🌹🌹🌹
He is from xam zam academy
What does based mean someone plz help
It's kind of like saying "brutally honest about my beliefs and I don't care what anyone thinks".
If Your from Minnesota than you probably see alot of somalis
12:32
Seculari SUCKS!!!
Religions even more.
@@AS-jj4dv blindly believing humans evolved from monkeys even more.
Fax
@@ninaaden8338 1. Blindly? 2. evolved from monkey?
Evolution is a scientific fact. Adam, the “first” human never existed, nor was he created by different stuffs by god, whatever the man-made quran says. Humans appeared through Evolution (natural selection and random DNA changes creating a variety of life forms) and not through the created couple adam and eve (from clay and water, dust etc), i.e., a myth copied into the quran from the bible, an idea originated in Mesopotamia. The actual homo sapiens exists only for about 200’000 years, originating from humanoids with an evolution history of 2 to 4 million years. All living creature has an evolutionary origin. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution and as an illustration: ruclips.net/video/HpXaiG8L28s/видео.html. An important mystery exists yet, that is the appearance and origin of life itself, in its simplest form. But scientists are working on the problem. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis).
Nina's comment disappeared ?
@@AS-jj4dv until you can explain death, and why are we all bound to die, you have to neal down to your Lord, for your own sake.
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians->ANYAllah< Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, " Our Lord is God " And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, God is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
Note: Why did Allah protected Churches and Synagogues if they worship false Allah ?
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a single nation.( ie single religion ) But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you (ie Scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you '' >DISPUTE verb < not noun like other religions
Islam mean "submission" to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the >MUSLIM< and the Non-Muslims but total "submission" to God )
Question: How Can Muslim And the Non-Muslim "submit" to the God?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
Note: If you obeyed all the ABOVE Allah-God's moral laws "YOU" submitted to God.( ie Islam mean "submission" to God )
The only people who will enter Paradise those who '' Submitted to God '' ( ie by Good Deeds )
God does NOT accept your religion of birth but only ''Your Total'' Submission to Him.
( God Allows Interfaith Marriages And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5:5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And lawful in marriage are chaste women from among the believers (ie Muslim ) and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers.''
Note: > Only < Islam allows interfaith marriages (>14 hundredsSame God< but They are >ALL Corrupt< more or less, some more than others from their original foundational teaching. The older religion are MORE corrupted than newer religion.
Question to Muslim and Christian:
Does God / Allah only answer your pray ?
And God / Allah does not answer non Muslim / non Christian pray?
Did Allah '' Canceled '' all other religions Judaism and Christianity?
Quran 5:48
'' And We have revealed to you [O Muhammad] the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture ( ie New and old Testament ) and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. >>>TO EACH OF YOU WE PRESCRIBED A LAW AND A METHODone nation>differ qualified < for to enter Paradise )
On the day of judgement God will ''NOT'' judge humanity bases on Sunni Muslim sect VS Shia Muslim sect ''NOR'' by Muslim VS non-Muslim >but< Doer of Goods VS Doer of Evils.
'' YOUR " birth in the Muslim's family is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise.
'' YOUR " religion / sect / foot long beard is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise.
The > qualification < to enter Paradise is > Faith in God and Good Work
Robotica here again.
stop spamming and spreading falsehood
@@benharis1956 Cuh really said Hanafi ,Hanbali, Maliki and Shafi'i are sects and sufism is sunni 💀
Why do you keep lying to others when I have already debunked you on the youtube chats before.
No matter how many times you repeat your Kufr it won't become Islam.
Imam tom🤣
May I invite people to think a little critically? You cant have people you agree with and put this nonsense out. at 19.26 my body my choice and everything belongs to God, is abhorrent at best. Of course, everything belongs to God, but then He gave the woman every right to decide what she wants to do with her body. This is moronic at best.
I don't see anything particularly thoughtful about your comment. You assert that it is nonsense, abhorrent, moronic, but the only substantive point you have is that there might not be a contradiction between everything belonging to God and a woman "deciding what she wants to do with her body." That might be an interesting line of inquiry we could pursue, if you are willing to proceed with manners.
You said "He [God] gave the woman every right to decide."
This is an assertion you have made, what evidence do you have to support this?
@@TomFacchine Hello sir, What you guys are saying is infuriating at best. You are late comers to islam and do not have full grasp of it necessarily. But there are two arguments to be made here.
1) God made a human and will judge him/her based on his/her actions in this world. He has defined a path and based on if I follow or not follow that path is mine and consequences are also mine. So a person can do what they want with their body, wealth, mind and bear the consequences. If you or someone else is holding me accountable in this world then you have replaced the authority of God and thus are in error.
2) Secondly, you can not talk about this in only islamic perspective because you live in a pleural society and this pleural society has decided to operate under secular principle i.e. that you can follow whatever principle in your personal space but when it comes to public space and governance we will keep our personal feelings where they belong. We wont suppress a muslim from practicing his religion or a LGBT person or a feminist from practicing their beliefs and practices. So I do not really understand what is that is wrong with this principle. If someone does not like that principle and would rather live in Saudi or Pakistan, you can do Hijra and buy a one way ticket.
3) Thirdly so lets us say you do not want secularism what are you going to replace it by. You want Shariah and oppress others (pakistan/India/Mynamar), Christians would want their principles to be applied. Whose principle are we going to apply. If you apply islamic principle that would mean 1200 years of mostly harsh kingships, why is that better. You cant simply critique something without giving an alternative.
@@RWOOFKASHMIRI Infuriated might be how you feel, but obviously that is your subjective feeling and has nothing to do with our discussion. Thanks for the otherwise earnest response.
I apologize in advance that I do not know your religion if you indeed profess any at all. If I knew, I could tailor my answer more to what you believe. But since you found fault in me for being a 'late-comer to Islam,' I will assume that you are a Muslim. Sorry if that is mistaken.
1) If what you say is true, then God was mistaken to have revealed legal punishments in the Quran (or the Old Testament, etc) to be exacted on people who commit certain crimes in this world. Rather, Allah said "Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate." (4:105)
Punishing someone in this world does not necessarily imply assuming the position of God and judging them. We can punish people according to God's revealed law without holding any conviction as to how God will judge them in the afterlife. We can easily apply the law and leave the judgment to God.
2) Society has not 'decided' to live under secular principles. Society is not a person who has agency. Society is a creation of the secular state, one that is created, ordered, and policed by the state through legal violence. The secular state gets to decide what is "religion," what are legitimate "religious practices," what is "private," and what is "public," etc. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. are all secular states. The state decides what religion is acceptable or not and when the state wants to change a religion to fit its aims, it can change it. In Saudi Arabia, for example, the state controls all the Islamic universities as well as the curriculum of all secondary schools. The state gets to define what Islam is and isn't. They changed the textbooks to redefine Islam according to state interests. The secular state does this for all religions.
3) You are equating secularism with tolerance, which is a mistake. Tolerance is great, but secularism does not have a monopoly, nor is it even an exemplar of tolerance. For the majority of Muslim history, Shariah law provided more tolerance for religious minorities than secularism. Shariah law never tried to change the definition of other religions or how those people thought about their religion. It didn't produce an altered version of Christianity or Hinduism that was in line with the interests of the Shariah and then tell its followers that this was the TRUE Christianity/Hinduism.
@@TomFacchine Dear friend the reason you and I are able to hold opposing views is because we live in a secular society. Secular society allows personal expression without the imposition of one's views on others.
If we lived in a religious society then we cant express our faith in a place that is governed by the law that is not Islamic. You can not establish religious places that are not endorsed by that state. e.g. Saudi Arabia where you can not build churches or temples. similarly, if America was a Christian state you won't be allowed to build a mosque. I will be killed in Pakistan or Afghanistan for debating with you about Shariah law.
Even if we want to implement Islamic law which one will you choose, shia, maliki, hanafi, shafi, mutazili etc. We will have no consensus to be able to do any of these sharia systems.
Allow me to also wake you up regarding the Islamic state that you might fantasize about. Please do not forget that Usma, Ali, Hassan, Hussain were brutally killed by the Islamic state that you propose.
May I go on a limb and state that you are wanting a religious state (Khilafah). What then differentiates you from AlQaeda or ISIS. Do you sympathize with them?
@@RWOOFKASHMIRI completely unsubstantiated. You think secularism has a monopoly on tolerance and that is simply not historically or even theoretically true. You're failing to follow, let alone engage any of the points I've made here regarding what secularism is (Saudi Arabia is a secular state), what a "state" is (premodern Islamic empires are not states! This is anachronistic.), as well as the points brought up in the video, which it doesn't seem you've watched.
I don't see the use in further dialogue. There are books such as those mentioned in the video if you want to educate yourself and challenge your views. Good day.
Contrary to "Imam Tom's" assertion, secularism is ABSOLUTELY about celebrating your religion in private and not killing each other in public. It IS that simple. It has worked very well in the West, until people started arriving who are unwilling to comply, people who want to take THEIR religion out into the public sphere, who want exemptions and or special treatment, who want to introduce THEIR religious laws into the secular jurisprudence. 🤦
Really, Sir Knight Moody? Is that your definition of secularism? Do study a bit of the secularism of Ibn Khaldun, Father of modern sociology and history, as well as Averroes/Ibn Rushd who also helped the “liberated” West come out of their dark ages-so that we all could coexist logically and ethically -regardless of one’s personal proclivities on matters of faith or lifestyles. As far as “killing each other in public,” have you not studied the results of the Spanish Inquisition, or the decimation of the indigenous in the “liberated” west, or the brutalizations of slaves borrowed from the Heart of Africa? Or, the mistreatment of black brothers and sisters by law enforcement in the so-called “pacifist” West nowadays? Are you forgetting which bomb maker, Oppenheimer, helped build the popular bomb that killed off sacred thousands of generations in Japan? That later destroyed rebuilt Iraq, that later wounded Afghanistan and Vietnam and a grand baby of a health provider in Libya? That continues to beat down womanhood for being simply a woman? Are you forgetting that all people must learn to coexist instead of scapegoating a few people your type does not approve of? Thanks. Have a lovely day.