Just wanted to note because I didn't really hear it mentioned during the bits about Epic Challenge stratagem: Even if your character kills the enemy Character, that unit still retains any buffs from the Character until the end of this fight activation. Ref: Page 18 of the Rules Commentary, "While This Model is Leading a Unit". So you cannot use this to kill the character and remove its effect from the unit you're attacking, anything they provide their unit persists on their unit until the _entire attacking unit as resolved all of their attacks_. If the character provides Invulns to their unit, they will continue to have Invulns even in the character is the first model to die in the attack due to Precision.
@@percymacdonald6657I'm not sure if I follow, but I think no? No matter what, if you fight someone or shoot at someone with Precision, and you kill their character, during the REST of your unit's fighting/shooting your enemy's unit still has whatever buffs the Leader provided until your unit is done attacking entirely. So if I had a character that gave -1 to hit in melee, and I charged you, and you had Fights First and used Epic Challenger, and your character killed off my character with that effect, the effect is not gone yet. The rest of your unit now has to finish their attacks at -1 to hit because your attack activation has not ended, your character was part of the attack activation of your unit. All Epic Challenger does is give your character Precision, it does not create a new fight activation. AFTER your unit is done attacking, the buff fades, and the NEXT unit you use to attack their unit does not have to attack at -1 to hit.
@@percymacdonald6657Fights First only works if every model in the unit has it. And all of the unit needs to fight at the same time. So it will not matter for any unit the character is attached to. But if you have several separate units and the first unit destroys the character. Then it helps.
This video series convinced me, when i get more free time I am 100 percent signing up to the academy. Whoevers idea it was to do this deserves a beer for sure! 😊
It took me a while, but now I understand how initially ineligible Fights First units interacts with "Remaning Combats". Our group was playing like "now this Fights First is eligible, so I'll fight with them in the fights first step!", but now I got this nuance. Thank you very much!
To help clear up confusion on the Dread piling in and the Bezerkers not getting to fight first. The order to the Combat Phase is: 1) Activate Fights First 2) Activate Charging units 3) Activate ongoing combats. For fights first, you need to be in engagement range - the Bezerkers are not. Next, can they pile in to get to engagement range? No, because they didn't charge, so they aren't allowed to pile in. They can't do anything else so their activation is skipped. Then you move to the charging units. The Dread did charge so is allowed to pile in. The fact it's original target is dead doesn't matter - it successfully charged so it can pile in and attack whatever it piles in to. After that you activate ongoing combats, which is when the Bezerkers get to attack. They couldn't fight first because they didn't meet the conditions to do so, (be in engagement range) and they couldn't fight next because they didn't charge.
The relevant line from the Core Rules (p 32): Note that after an enemy unit has fought and finished its Consolidation move (pg 35), it might be that previously ineligible units are now eligible - these units can then be selected to fight during the Remaining Combats step.
Where is it written that pile-in requires a charge? I was also under the impression that charging units acquire fights first by charging. This puts them in the same activation pool.
2nd exemple to counter that, the WE player should have moved a bit further out and that Redemptor would not have been able to pile in because outside of 4 inch. So always something to keep in mind when screening.
13:00: I might be missing something? He's moving 4 inches. If a pile in is 3 inches, that would put him in engagement range but not base to base. How can he move the 4 inches?
So it's just a "unclean" movement? I'm also very confused about this example of getting into combat. Or is within 1 inch equal to base contact?@@carlos_4
If within 4" I believe he could pile in because the 3" would put him withing engagement range (1") though not base to base. Since the dread is within engagement it would get to attack. Wouldn't look like how he moved the models but would still work. If greater than 4" then no pile in is how I understand pile in moves.
I’ve struggling with the last tactic and worried my opponent would argue against it. If I’m clear it’s; The WE goes first and attempts to activate his fights first unit and because he can’t do anything his activation is over. The combat progresses to the Wolf player who piles in with the dread and fights and then his bladeguard who had fights first and not the WE who already had his attempt at using the fights first rule?
Because you don't wipe the embarked unit this way, you just force them an Emergency Disembarkation test to disembark in 6", allowing the surviving models to go to the objective and outside the range of his 2nd unit to pile in. Allowing space for them to disembark close to your next Fight activable unit and outside the range of the objective gives you more chance of winning :)
Great video, but I'd love to have a bit of clarification of the last tactic. The World Eater unit does not get their fight first, but then the Space Wolf unit DOES get to go and can pile in. Why is that? Both units have Fight First, though from different sources (WE from leader, SW from having charged). I'm not clear on why the WE "loses" Fight First here, but the SW is allowed to use their Fight First.
If its the SM turn and they charge, then its your opponents turn to fight first. As that unit isnt in engagement range they dont activate. Then its the SM turn to activate their fights first units.... And then you know the rest.
ok se he's what I am wondering is the player who's turn it isn't unable to pile in despite them having fights first? is piling in only a player who's turn it is thing?@@MrAltF4
In the "Master of Executions" example: I thought the 10th ed rules state you must move closest model to closest model when charging? So you wouldn't be able to move the back guys forward and overtake the MoE, would you? Edit: same for the Wulfen unit charging around the squad to reach the MoE?
For the getting around precision segment around 6:00, why exactly would your MoE be completely safe? If the captain fights back and puts precision wounds on the unit containing the MoE, he could allocate those to the MoE, no?
I believe it has something to do with line of sight. I slightly remember that you could either only epic challenge or precision a character if it's in line of sight of your model, although I couldn't find anything in either the core rules nor the rules commentary. So it might be wrong. If someone has some info on that, I'd love to know more too!
Precision weapon allows you to allocate attacks to a character model you need to have visibility to. If you don’t have visibility to that enemy character model, you can’t allocate precision attacks to it.
@@gideonm.4866 "Weapons with [PRECISION] in their profile are known as Precision weapons. Each time an attack made with such a weapon successfully wounds an Attached unit (pg 39), if a Character model in that unit is visible to the attacking model, the attacking model’s player can choose to have that attack allocated to that Character model instead of following the normal attack sequence."
Great tips! Where can I find the rule that states which units can pile in? I thought that when unit is not in engagement range any more, it can't do the fight sequence.
Any unit that makes a charge is eligible to fight. Since they are eligible to fight, they can pile in.
8 месяцев назад+2
Core rules p. 32 " a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply: ■ It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ■ It made a Charge move this turn." - in the video, the 'fights first' unit is not within engagement range and didn't charge, so at that moment it's not eligible to fight and can't be selected to do the pile-in.
@this is the exact clear explanation I was looking for as to why the last tactic worked. Thank you! The CSM do not meet the conditions to activate, so they are skipped, and the SM get to complete the entire activation to include the pile-in, and actually fighting because they meet the conditions to activate via having charged
Great vid. query though at around 4m you tank shocked the charged unit and piled in to another unit. does that mean you attack last as it is your turn and you didn't charge that unit?
Im new to 40k, could some1 explain why the berzerker able to move to the bladeguard even after the fight phase? thanks alot for helping me figure it out
in the first example ? they charged. every unit that charged successfully is eligible to activate in the next fighting phase even if they're not in melee anymore. and they can pile in if that brings them into melee with an ennemy unit.
I agree. they always have fight first, it doesn't depend on them being in melee at the start of the fight phase. so they're always eligible to fight first as long as they're engaged. the world eater player has no interest in pulling out of melee with the dread unless it also pulls them out of pile in range from the bladeguards. the rest of the trick is nice though, and at least the dread doesn't eat a full unit activation...
@@emmanuelauclair3886 the player whose turn it is selects the first "fights first" unit, as per designer's commentary (www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf) So the marine player would get one of his charging unit's attacks off before his opponent can activate his "fights first" unit...
All the best moves are still done on the charge and fight phase. I don't understand how people are calling it a shooting edition. There are definitely powerful shooting units, but if playing on decent terrain, these incremental movements still win games.
Where can I read more about what is mentioned at 3:18 ("in 10th edition you don't have to fight things that you charged")? I've tried reading the core rules, but cant see anything specific on this?
since those world eaters have fight first could they not have piled into the space wolf's first? is there something stopping them from using pile in? I am looking for an answer but not finding anything clear cut
To be eligible to fight you must be in engagement range. To pile in, you must be selected to fight. This is why the world eaters cannot be selected - they did not start the phase in engagement.
@@AngusMcIntyre thanks for this, I eventually found an answer to this. I now understand that when you are the charger you get the benefit of ending a pile in within engagement but if you haven't charged then you must already be within engagement to pile in. I have missed out on so many fights because my opponents' would just pull some of their first rows away and declare me out of combat 🤦
in the second example where the redepmtor charges: when he kills models with MW the defender does not choose which soldiers die? in that case the defender would choose the last line so the redemptor will not pile in
8:21 how is the master executioner not in line of sight when he is stood on terrain model itself? Is this a barricade / wall / container thing, or a ruin?
Can anyone explain is comment " You don't have to fight things you charge" at 3:20, why do the Berserkers get a free pile in? Wouldn't it be a consolidate towards the closest enemy unit?
These are two separate units, they both made charges. The first unit that destroyed the transport could consolidate towards the exited unit. The second unit is using "pile in" at the start of their fight. Although they are not in engagement range they are eligible to file as they made a charge.
But in this situation this unit pile in after another unit died why didn't they just pile in when the other unit piled in that made the charge?@@Horsenabout
In the first example, don't players take turns to fight in the combat phase? So even though the BG weren't in engagement range at first, it'd be their turn to fight next when the KB piled into them?
They take turns with defender going first, unless they were charged or the enemy unit has fights first and they dont. The eightbound killed the transport so then the bladeguard hop out. The berzerkers charged this turn, so they get to go first. If the bladeguards survived then they would get to fight back
Can anyone explain in the 2nd example why master of executioner can't be seen? the captain is wholly inside the ruin which allows him to see outside the ruin?
@@whodovoodoowedo no, i don't agree. This is about teaching the game and giving players the tools they need to compete. Newcomers won't get the difference in certain rules in tournament play versus normal matched play. We're not all mind readers...
No because he charged the first squad but while in engagement range and still during the charge phase he used tank shock which wiped the squad and allowed him to at the start of the fight phase pile into the second unit.
At about 5 min mark, when doing the Redemptor tank shock could the world eaters player pull models from the back of the unit and keep the models at the front?
So when my Maleceptor blows up a Drukari Raider and they then fall out of their boat, they get to lock me in combat and counter hit me in that turn as well? Whua!? And how does it work, when i kill 1 unit in melee, and then i consolodate into another new unit in engagement range. Does he get to fight me then? And m i allowed to hit then a back ( A second time in this turn)?
You cannot fight twice in a turn. If you consolidate into another unit, they will be able to fight you. But they wont have the benefit of charge and next turn you will be able to fight before them.
wasent supose to this edition that you have to move when charge into the most straight distance between the target? in your first example you move the bersekers suround the transport
Here's my question, and I can't find the answer. If someone charges me, and my unit is in a ruin or some other building. And they have units that *wouldve* Been base to base, if it wasn't for the building/ruins wall. Do they get to attack, or no?
Wait, so I don’t have to fight the unit I charged? If I multi-charge one unit and that unit is wiped out by the first combat, I can pile-into another unit if I can get within engagement range of it?! Even if i didn’t declare that as a charge target?
Hey Daniel this is part of our academy course and we recommend our students have the rule book with them whilst completing the programme. Our course is to help a greater understanding of the implementation.
Wait... precision doesn't work through walls of a ruin in melee if you're in engagement range? Have I been playing ruins wrong all of 10th? Can you not fight through a ruin wall?
@VanguardTactics and... I'm guessing this is because most tournaments run their ground floors as solid walls with no visibility. Buy club terrain has windows and doors. So assuming your within an inch and it has windows, can fight. But in this video. Walls are solid.
In terms of using consolidate to skip your opponents "Fights first" after you charge, I don't understand how that works. You've pointed out that by killing a unit with tank shock, you are skipping the "Fights first" phase of the combat. So when you consolidate into another unit, neither of you would have fights first, so they would go first as they are the defending player? And all of this hinges though on "tank shock" and how you're using it. "Tank Shock" ability is used during the charge phase, and must be resolved before the end of the phase. So you must complete tank shock before the fight phase begins, meaning you don't skip the "First first" portion of combat at all. Also, consolidate happens after attacks have been made, so you can't consolidate after a tank shock, because the fight phase hasn't happened yet? This seems poorly worded or wrongly interpreted. Please clarify.
@@MrWollollo123 The answer is, after a lot of searching, fairly annoying (and entirely based around how fights first works). When a player selects a unit to fight (activates it), it always deals damage first. "Fights First" roughly plays out as: "The units controller may choose to activate this unit before others". Unlike other games (like MTG, which has "First Strike"), "Fights First" doesn't mean "Deals damage first", it just indicates this unit can be selected to activate before other units. The second part of this is how units are allowed to activate in the fight phase: "In both steps, a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply: ■ It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ■ It made a Charge move this turn. " So the defending unit, with fights first, isn't in engagement range, and didn't charge. The dreadnaught (attacker) DID charge, so is eligible to activate. So it activates, does a pile in, and this leaves it within engagement range of the defending unit. The activation continues and it kills some defending models. The then repeats with the second attacking players unit. The second bullet point should probably be removed, because the scenario of being out of engagement range and still succeeding a charge never happens naturally, and simply leads to rules-lawyering scenarios like the one in this video. That's bad for new players and makes running tournaments a nightmare for the small number of staff they likely have to resolve rules conflicts.
First of all you seem to be confusing pile in and consolidation. Pile in is the first step a unit takes when it is its turn to fight. Consolidation is the last step after fighting has happened. Tank shock happens in the charge phase and is resolved as such. When you enter the fight phase, you start with fights first units, specifically those belonging to the player whose turn it is not, I.e. the berserkers. Berserkers did not charge, and are not in engagement range when it comes around to their turn to activate, therefore they cannot activate. Next the charging units activate with their fights first, piling in and fighting. Berserkers will get to activate after that if they survive.
When you disembark you gotta be within 3" of the transport and not within engagement of any unit. 8bound already fought so they couldn't move back into the vets
@jonathanperkins8961 Yeah, but the bladeguard are still pretty close to the eightbound. Whether they already fought or not doesn't change their engagement range.
Ok in the final example I just want to clarify that if a unit has fights first it just means it is eligible to fight in the fights first step of the combat phase. Prior to the dreadnaught piling in they are not an eligible unit since they are not in engagement and have not charged. After he piles in it is their turn to fight since they are now an eligible unit since they are in engagement and can activate in the fights first step of the fight phase. Admittedly the dreadnaught is not an optimal target for them but this interaction could let them pile out of range for the bladeguard potentially. It is an important thing for people to know that the video indicates is incorrect. Great video though. Great quality. Great content.
This is not true, the way it is done in the video is correct (unless I am looking at out of date rules). The fight phase is split into two steps, "Fights first" and then "Remaining combats". The "Fights first" step has all units that are eligible to fight with either the fights first ability or a charge bonus. Note that these units must still be eligible at the start of the "Fights first" step, as explained in the next paragraphs. The "Remaining combats" includes all remaining units that are eligible to fight (i.e. that didn't fight in the "Fights first" step). Note the following extracts from the Rules, and, This specifically states that units with fights first needed to be eligible at the start of the fight phase to be chosen in the "Fights first" step. Or, put another way, even if you have fights first, if you only become eligible to fight during the fight phase (so you didn't start as an eligible unit) then you can only be chosen to fight in the "Remaining combats" step.
@@Nickersonbm you are right I apologize for my comment. This does bring me to an annoyance with the rules writing. It would have been so easy to put wording into the fights first ability for this exception. Meanwhile they word fights first and the fights first phase to not reflect this nuance. It isn’t until you look at the remaining combats section that you find this meanwhile you are fairly certain you have all the information you need. Anyways thanks again for correcting me. I always seek to learn the game and play it as the rules want it to be played.
@@artemisquinn No worries, and no need to apologize. I actually went to the rules to go check this exact thing because I also thought you were correct initially and was scrolling comments to see if anyone said what I was thinking. Then when I saw your comment I went to double check the rules. I agree with you, I really dislike how rules are essentially spread out like this in their writing. If something like this happened to me in a game, it would have been a real feels bad moment, even though my opponent would have been technically correct, just because all the information isn't readily available in the rule.
As a blood angels player its super important i dont fail charges. Good thing ive only played in 5th and 10th ed. In 5th, charges were always 6", but you couldnt pre-measure. So you declared a charge and its target was more than 6" away, it failed. Learning those rules, and how important charges are for my army, i learned to always find ways to make sure and land my charges. 40 str 10 ap 2 dmg 2 attacks can do a ton of good, as long as you make sure to land them.
@@VanguardTacticsdon't get me wrong I don't begrudge a competitive player gaining an advantage where they can. However, I just can't help feel these interactions aren't in the spirit of the game, they have a distinct "well actually" vibe about them. If these powerful effects are intentional they have been written in such a way that they are obfuscated to most players
@@dialupsyndrome1910 having some element of synergy and importance or order to decisions along with positioning allows players to improve at the game. Otherwise we will end up with a game where everyone has the most efficient pointed list and rolls better on the day. Having nuance is the reason I enjoy the game so much. Otherwise I’d be pushing models around without much purpose.
Though I agree with what you are saying and I want there to be healthy gap between skill ceiling and floor. I honestly feel like some of these techniques, for example getting around fights first does not seem intended to me. Maybe my perception is biased as a software developer but the interactions seem to be pushing the system to gain an unintentional advantage.
@@dialupsyndrome1910 fight first is one of the strongest rules in the game which is why Custodes are exceptional strong atm so having some counter play for those weaker units that only specialise in combat gives them some counter play. But there are some instances where the rules can get a bit strange like firing from an spike on the model around a corner, or having a gun barrel hang off the edge of the board but still able to draw line of sight over dead space.
I was thinking of counter offensive, so youre right on that. For SM could be your Armor of Contempt or Only in Death Does Duty End. I would say detachment depending is what theyre thinking?
Just wanted to note because I didn't really hear it mentioned during the bits about Epic Challenge stratagem: Even if your character kills the enemy Character, that unit still retains any buffs from the Character until the end of this fight activation. Ref: Page 18 of the Rules Commentary, "While This Model is Leading a Unit".
So you cannot use this to kill the character and remove its effect from the unit you're attacking, anything they provide their unit persists on their unit until the _entire attacking unit as resolved all of their attacks_. If the character provides Invulns to their unit, they will continue to have Invulns even in the character is the first model to die in the attack due to Precision.
Would that still work if the epic challenger had fights first?
@@percymacdonald6657I'm not sure if I follow, but I think no? No matter what, if you fight someone or shoot at someone with Precision, and you kill their character, during the REST of your unit's fighting/shooting your enemy's unit still has whatever buffs the Leader provided until your unit is done attacking entirely.
So if I had a character that gave -1 to hit in melee, and I charged you, and you had Fights First and used Epic Challenger, and your character killed off my character with that effect, the effect is not gone yet. The rest of your unit now has to finish their attacks at -1 to hit because your attack activation has not ended, your character was part of the attack activation of your unit. All Epic Challenger does is give your character Precision, it does not create a new fight activation.
AFTER your unit is done attacking, the buff fades, and the NEXT unit you use to attack their unit does not have to attack at -1 to hit.
@@percymacdonald6657Fights First only works if every model in the unit has it. And all of the unit needs to fight at the same time. So it will not matter for any unit the character is attached to.
But if you have several separate units and the first unit destroys the character. Then it helps.
This video series convinced me, when i get more free time I am 100 percent signing up to the academy. Whoevers idea it was to do this deserves a beer for sure! 😊
That’s awesome the academy enrollment ends of Sunday or before all spaces have gone
It took me a while, but now I understand how initially ineligible Fights First units interacts with "Remaning Combats". Our group was playing like "now this Fights First is eligible, so I'll fight with them in the fights first step!", but now I got this nuance. Thank you very much!
Im familiar with most of these tricks but i really like that first one! Was a new one to me!
To help clear up confusion on the Dread piling in and the Bezerkers not getting to fight first. The order to the Combat Phase is:
1) Activate Fights First
2) Activate Charging units
3) Activate ongoing combats.
For fights first, you need to be in engagement range - the Bezerkers are not. Next, can they pile in to get to engagement range? No, because they didn't charge, so they aren't allowed to pile in. They can't do anything else so their activation is skipped.
Then you move to the charging units. The Dread did charge so is allowed to pile in. The fact it's original target is dead doesn't matter - it successfully charged so it can pile in and attack whatever it piles in to.
After that you activate ongoing combats, which is when the Bezerkers get to attack.
They couldn't fight first because they didn't meet the conditions to do so, (be in engagement range) and they couldn't fight next because they didn't charge.
The relevant line from the Core Rules (p 32):
Note that after an enemy unit has fought and finished its Consolidation move (pg 35), it might be that previously ineligible units are now eligible - these units can then be selected to fight during the Remaining Combats step.
@@owlbear8293Yeah, badly worded from GW i think.
RAW it works as seen in the video, but RAI i belive the Zerkers should have fought back.
Where is it written that pile-in requires a charge?
I was also under the impression that charging units acquire fights first by charging. This puts them in the same activation pool.
2nd exemple to counter that, the WE player should have moved a bit further out and that Redemptor would not have been able to pile in because outside of 4 inch. So always something to keep in mind when screening.
13:00: I might be missing something? He's moving 4 inches. If a pile in is 3 inches, that would put him in engagement range but not base to base. How can he move the 4 inches?
He can't, Pile In moves are 3 inches and must end within 1 inch of the enemy or not move at all.
So it's just a "unclean" movement? I'm also very confused about this example of getting into combat. Or is within 1 inch equal to base contact?@@carlos_4
If within 4" I believe he could pile in because the 3" would put him withing engagement range (1") though not base to base. Since the dread is within engagement it would get to attack. Wouldn't look like how he moved the models but would still work. If greater than 4" then no pile in is how I understand pile in moves.
This is great content. Lore and theoryhammer are all fun and stuff, but this is what's REALLY happening on the tabletop.
nice set of tricks guys.your videos are very good, thanks for sharing ❤
I’ve struggling with the last tactic and worried my opponent would argue against it.
If I’m clear it’s;
The WE goes first and attempts to activate his fights first unit and because he can’t do anything his activation is over.
The combat progresses to the Wolf player who piles in with the dread and fights and then his bladeguard who had fights first and not the WE who already had his attempt at using the fights first rule?
I too used to wonder why great players did certain things like this. Now I field a Baneblade.
Why is example 1 better than just wiping the embarked unit by wrapping the transport?
Because you don't wipe the embarked unit this way, you just force them an Emergency Disembarkation test to disembark in 6", allowing the surviving models to go to the objective and outside the range of his 2nd unit to pile in. Allowing space for them to disembark close to your next Fight activable unit and outside the range of the objective gives you more chance of winning :)
Another great unique video, loving these little tricks and tactics
Great video, but I'd love to have a bit of clarification of the last tactic. The World Eater unit does not get their fight first, but then the Space Wolf unit DOES get to go and can pile in. Why is that? Both units have Fight First, though from different sources (WE from leader, SW from having charged). I'm not clear on why the WE "loses" Fight First here, but the SW is allowed to use their Fight First.
If its the SM turn and they charge, then its your opponents turn to fight first. As that unit isnt in engagement range they dont activate. Then its the SM turn to activate their fights first units.... And then you know the rest.
ok se he's what I am wondering is the player who's turn it isn't unable to pile in despite them having fights first? is piling in only a player who's turn it is thing?@@MrAltF4
In the "Master of Executions" example: I thought the 10th ed rules state you must move closest model to closest model when charging?
So you wouldn't be able to move the back guys forward and overtake the MoE, would you?
Edit: same for the Wulfen unit charging around the squad to reach the MoE?
They don’t state that, they just make you base it it’s possible to base. There’s no restriction on the order you move models in
You must base if you can is the only rule
Those very very cool tricks!
Very interesting tips lads, well done.
Realy good video thanks gents!
For the getting around precision segment around 6:00, why exactly would your MoE be completely safe? If the captain fights back and puts precision wounds on the unit containing the MoE, he could allocate those to the MoE, no?
I believe it has something to do with line of sight. I slightly remember that you could either only epic challenge or precision a character if it's in line of sight of your model, although I couldn't find anything in either the core rules nor the rules commentary. So it might be wrong. If someone has some info on that, I'd love to know more too!
Precision weapon allows you to allocate attacks to a character model you need to have visibility to. If you don’t have visibility to that enemy character model, you can’t allocate precision attacks to it.
@@gideonm.4866
"Weapons with [PRECISION] in their profile are known
as Precision weapons. Each time an attack made with
such a weapon successfully wounds an Attached unit
(pg 39), if a Character model in that unit is visible
to the attacking model, the attacking model’s player
can choose to have that attack allocated to that
Character model instead of following the normal
attack sequence."
Seems like peoples house rules are messing with the rules understabding
Great tips! Where can I find the rule that states which units can pile in? I thought that when unit is not in engagement range any more, it can't do the fight sequence.
Any unit that makes a charge is eligible to fight.
Since they are eligible to fight, they can pile in.
Core rules p. 32 " a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply: ■ It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ■ It made a Charge move this turn." - in the video, the 'fights first' unit is not within engagement range and didn't charge, so at that moment it's not eligible to fight and can't be selected to do the pile-in.
@this is the exact clear explanation I was looking for as to why the last tactic worked. Thank you! The CSM do not meet the conditions to activate, so they are skipped, and the SM get to complete the entire activation to include the pile-in, and actually fighting because they meet the conditions to activate via having charged
Great vid. query though at around 4m you tank shocked the charged unit and piled in to another unit. does that mean you attack last as it is your turn and you didn't charge that unit?
no, you attack first adn since you didnt charge them you can pile into say callidus and she doesnt fight first i believe.
You still charged this turn, wouldnt that mean you still have fights first?
Im new to 40k, could some1 explain why the berzerker able to move to the bladeguard even after the fight phase? thanks alot for helping me figure it out
in the first example ? they charged. every unit that charged successfully is eligible to activate in the next fighting phase even if they're not in melee anymore. and they can pile in if that brings them into melee with an ennemy unit.
It was not the end of the fight phase, it was the end of the first unit fight action. Every unit when selected to fight can make a pile in move first.
thx for the explanations
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing
In that last example, if there were Berserkers that lived through the Redemptor and Bladguard attacks, would they have been able to fight back?
I agree. they always have fight first, it doesn't depend on them being in melee at the start of the fight phase. so they're always eligible to fight first as long as they're engaged. the world eater player has no interest in pulling out of melee with the dread unless it also pulls them out of pile in range from the bladeguards.
the rest of the trick is nice though, and at least the dread doesn't eat a full unit activation...
@@emmanuelauclair3886This is incorrect.
@@emmanuelauclair3886 the player whose turn it is selects the first "fights first" unit, as per designer's commentary (www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf) So the marine player would get one of his charging unit's attacks off before his opponent can activate his "fights first" unit...
Yes. No idea about the other comment lol
@@aaronnunavabizniz199 it might well be and if you feel like it I'd be interested in a explanation, to update my knowledge
Fan-tactics!
All the best moves are still done on the charge and fight phase. I don't understand how people are calling it a shooting edition. There are definitely powerful shooting units, but if playing on decent terrain, these incremental movements still win games.
Where can I read more about what is mentioned at 3:18 ("in 10th edition you don't have to fight things that you charged")? I've tried reading the core rules, but cant see anything specific on this?
since those world eaters have fight first could they not have piled into the space wolf's first? is there something stopping them from using pile in? I am looking for an answer but not finding anything clear cut
To be eligible to fight you must be in engagement range. To pile in, you must be selected to fight. This is why the world eaters cannot be selected - they did not start the phase in engagement.
@@AngusMcIntyre thanks for this, I eventually found an answer to this. I now understand that when you are the charger you get the benefit of ending a pile in within engagement but if you haven't charged then you must already be within engagement to pile in. I have missed out on so many fights because my opponents' would just pull some of their first rows away and declare me out of combat 🤦
in the second example where the redepmtor charges: when he kills models with MW the defender does not choose which soldiers die? in that case the defender would choose the last line so the redemptor will not pile in
There are 2 WE units there; the one the Redemptor charged and Tank Shocked is one, the one he piled in is the second.
In the first example, how do they charge the unit after the transport is destroyed when they already charged the transport?
They arent charging the bladeguard. They piled in on their fight phase
8:21 how is the master executioner not in line of sight when he is stood on terrain model itself? Is this a barricade / wall / container thing, or a ruin?
I had the same thought. He looked visible.
Looks like a ruin to me
Can anyone explain is comment " You don't have to fight things you charge" at 3:20, why do the Berserkers get a free pile in? Wouldn't it be a consolidate towards the closest enemy unit?
These are two separate units, they both made charges.
The first unit that destroyed the transport could consolidate towards the exited unit.
The second unit is using "pile in" at the start of their fight. Although they are not in engagement range they are eligible to file as they made a charge.
So pile in's can effectively happened after fighting has started is fight your saying.@@Horsenabout
@@connorb5519 pile in is the first action a unit that has been chosen to fight can take.
But in this situation this unit pile in after another unit died why didn't they just pile in when the other unit piled in that made the charge?@@Horsenabout
@@connorb5519 because each unit completes its fight phase separately. The pile in action isn't simultaneous for all units.
Great video!
When hé charged with The dread what kind of strategem did he use with 12+2 Dice with mortal wounds ?
Tank Shock. I just don’t understand why he got +2 dice.
“Have a care little brother. Those who choose not to follow my advice usually end up wishing they had.”
In the first example, don't players take turns to fight in the combat phase? So even though the BG weren't in engagement range at first, it'd be their turn to fight next when the KB piled into them?
They take turns with defender going first, unless they were charged or the enemy unit has fights first and they dont. The eightbound killed the transport so then the bladeguard hop out. The berzerkers charged this turn, so they get to go first. If the bladeguards survived then they would get to fight back
thank you for the vid, very good
Can anyone explain in the 2nd example why master of executioner can't be seen? the captain is wholly inside the ruin which allows him to see outside the ruin?
I wondered about this too...
Pretty much any tournament will run with rules that all ground floors of ruins block line of sight.
@@whodovoodoowedo ah, yes, fair point - they should probably clarify that this is based on tournament rules/ play, and not the core rules
@@amimmortal77Thats probably implied by the fact that this is a free Academy lesson which is intended to teach tournament level play.
@@whodovoodoowedo no, i don't agree. This is about teaching the game and giving players the tools they need to compete. Newcomers won't get the difference in certain rules in tournament play versus normal matched play. We're not all mind readers...
When the Dreadnought piled in to the second squad, were they declared as the target of the charge?
No because he charged the first squad but while in engagement range and still during the charge phase he used tank shock which wiped the squad and allowed him to at the start of the fight phase pile into the second unit.
Fights first stays even if the unit you charged dies
At about 5 min mark, when doing the Redemptor tank shock could the world eaters player pull models from the back of the unit and keep the models at the front?
Yes, the owner of the killed models choose which die. Unless of course we're being [PRECISION]'d.
What would happen if there is no room for the unit to disembark ? 3:24
Believe they do a desperate break out
@@philgagnon275 ah thanks mate I thought that would be the case 👍
cool
So when my Maleceptor blows up a Drukari Raider and they then fall out of their boat, they get to lock me in combat and counter hit me in that turn as well? Whua!?
And how does it work, when i kill 1 unit in melee, and then i consolodate into another new unit in engagement range. Does he get to fight me then? And m i allowed to hit then a back ( A second time in this turn)?
You cannot fight twice in a turn. If you consolidate into another unit, they will be able to fight you. But they wont have the benefit of charge and next turn you will be able to fight before them.
When disembarking for whatever reason, you have to be setup outside engagement range. So no, they can't attack your Mally after you blow up their boat
wasent supose to this edition that you have to move when charge into the most straight distance between the target? in your first example you move the bersekers suround the transport
You need only base if you can
Wow now I know why I was getting spanked every time lol
Here's my question, and I can't find the answer.
If someone charges me, and my unit is in a ruin or some other building. And they have units that *wouldve* Been base to base, if it wasn't for the building/ruins wall. Do they get to attack, or no?
Can you melee through a wall?
@@RMCbreezy that's the question
@@stanberry6798 the rules say all that matters is being within engagement range, except PRECISION needs LoS. Seems wrong but oh welp
Wait, so I don’t have to fight the unit I charged? If I multi-charge one unit and that unit is wiped out by the first combat, I can pile-into another unit if I can get within engagement range of it?! Even if i didn’t declare that as a charge target?
Yes
by piling in, do you lose fights first?
No
You really need to reference the rules while you do this
Hey Daniel this is part of our academy course and we recommend our students have the rule book with them whilst completing the programme. Our course is to help a greater understanding of the implementation.
Wait... precision doesn't work through walls of a ruin in melee if you're in engagement range?
Have I been playing ruins wrong all of 10th? Can you not fight through a ruin wall?
It works providing you have line of sight to the character
@VanguardTactics and... I'm guessing this is because most tournaments run their ground floors as solid walls with no visibility.
Buy club terrain has windows and doors.
So assuming your within an inch and it has windows, can fight. But in this video. Walls are solid.
@@JuneauEu yeah you got it mate
In terms of using consolidate to skip your opponents "Fights first" after you charge, I don't understand how that works.
You've pointed out that by killing a unit with tank shock, you are skipping the "Fights first" phase of the combat. So when you consolidate into another unit, neither of you would have fights first, so they would go first as they are the defending player?
And all of this hinges though on "tank shock" and how you're using it. "Tank Shock" ability is used during the charge phase, and must be resolved before the end of the phase. So you must complete tank shock before the fight phase begins, meaning you don't skip the "First first" portion of combat at all. Also, consolidate happens after attacks have been made, so you can't consolidate after a tank shock, because the fight phase hasn't happened yet?
This seems poorly worded or wrongly interpreted. Please clarify.
commenting so i get the answer to this
@@MrWollollo123 The answer is, after a lot of searching, fairly annoying (and entirely based around how fights first works). When a player selects a unit to fight (activates it), it always deals damage first. "Fights First" roughly plays out as: "The units controller may choose to activate this unit before others". Unlike other games (like MTG, which has "First Strike"), "Fights First" doesn't mean "Deals damage first", it just indicates this unit can be selected to activate before other units.
The second part of this is how units are allowed to activate in the fight phase:
"In both steps, a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the
following apply:
■ It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units.
■ It made a Charge move this turn. "
So the defending unit, with fights first, isn't in engagement range, and didn't charge. The dreadnaught (attacker) DID charge, so is eligible to activate. So it activates, does a pile in, and this leaves it within engagement range of the defending unit. The activation continues and it kills some defending models. The then repeats with the second attacking players unit.
The second bullet point should probably be removed, because the scenario of being out of engagement range and still succeeding a charge never happens naturally, and simply leads to rules-lawyering scenarios like the one in this video. That's bad for new players and makes running tournaments a nightmare for the small number of staff they likely have to resolve rules conflicts.
@Bizm4rk great explanation. Thanks a lot! this is a really good one for me. Appreciate it
First of all you seem to be confusing pile in and consolidation. Pile in is the first step a unit takes when it is its turn to fight. Consolidation is the last step after fighting has happened.
Tank shock happens in the charge phase and is resolved as such. When you enter the fight phase, you start with fights first units, specifically those belonging to the player whose turn it is not, I.e. the berserkers. Berserkers did not charge, and are not in engagement range when it comes around to their turn to activate, therefore they cannot activate. Next the charging units activate with their fights first, piling in and fighting. Berserkers will get to activate after that if they survive.
In the first example, were the disembarking bladeguard not in engagement range of the eightbound?
When you disembark you gotta be within 3" of the transport and not within engagement of any unit. 8bound already fought so they couldn't move back into the vets
@jonathanperkins8961 Yeah, but the bladeguard are still pretty close to the eightbound. Whether they already fought or not doesn't change their engagement range.
So I just need to hire someone who can remember all these shenanigans, because I’m sure that I’d forget everything 🤨
Ok in the final example I just want to clarify that if a unit has fights first it just means it is eligible to fight in the fights first step of the combat phase.
Prior to the dreadnaught piling in they are not an eligible unit since they are not in engagement and have not charged.
After he piles in it is their turn to fight since they are now an eligible unit since they are in engagement and can activate in the fights first step of the fight phase.
Admittedly the dreadnaught is not an optimal target for them but this interaction could let them pile out of range for the bladeguard potentially.
It is an important thing for people to know that the video indicates is incorrect.
Great video though. Great quality. Great content.
This is not true, the way it is done in the video is correct (unless I am looking at out of date rules).
The fight phase is split into two steps, "Fights first" and then "Remaining combats". The "Fights first" step has all units that are eligible to fight with either the fights first ability or a charge bonus. Note that these units must still be eligible at the start of the "Fights first" step, as explained in the next paragraphs.
The "Remaining combats" includes all remaining units that are eligible to fight (i.e. that didn't fight in the "Fights first" step).
Note the following extracts from the Rules, and,
This specifically states that units with fights first needed to be eligible at the start of the fight phase to be chosen in the "Fights first" step. Or, put another way, even if you have fights first, if you only become eligible to fight during the fight phase (so you didn't start as an eligible unit) then you can only be chosen to fight in the "Remaining combats" step.
@@Nickersonbm you are right I apologize for my comment.
This does bring me to an annoyance with the rules writing.
It would have been so easy to put wording into the fights first ability for this exception. Meanwhile they word fights first and the fights first phase to not reflect this nuance.
It isn’t until you look at the remaining combats section that you find this meanwhile you are fairly certain you have all the information you need.
Anyways thanks again for correcting me. I always seek to learn the game and play it as the rules want it to be played.
@@artemisquinn No worries, and no need to apologize. I actually went to the rules to go check this exact thing because I also thought you were correct initially and was scrolling comments to see if anyone said what I was thinking. Then when I saw your comment I went to double check the rules.
I agree with you, I really dislike how rules are essentially spread out like this in their writing. If something like this happened to me in a game, it would have been a real feels bad moment, even though my opponent would have been technically correct, just because all the information isn't readily available in the rule.
As a blood angels player its super important i dont fail charges.
Good thing ive only played in 5th and 10th ed.
In 5th, charges were always 6", but you couldnt pre-measure. So you declared a charge and its target was more than 6" away, it failed. Learning those rules, and how important charges are for my army, i learned to always find ways to make sure and land my charges.
40 str 10 ap 2 dmg 2 attacks can do a ton of good, as long as you make sure to land them.
I think I dislike how gamey these things are
Why do you think these aspects are gamey? Have you considered that they may be part of the game to balance shooting and combat?
@@VanguardTacticsdon't get me wrong I don't begrudge a competitive player gaining an advantage where they can. However, I just can't help feel these interactions aren't in the spirit of the game, they have a distinct "well actually" vibe about them. If these powerful effects are intentional they have been written in such a way that they are obfuscated to most players
@@dialupsyndrome1910 having some element of synergy and importance or order to decisions along with positioning allows players to improve at the game. Otherwise we will end up with a game where everyone has the most efficient pointed list and rolls better on the day. Having nuance is the reason I enjoy the game so much. Otherwise I’d be pushing models around without much purpose.
Though I agree with what you are saying and I want there to be healthy gap between skill ceiling and floor. I honestly feel like some of these techniques, for example getting around fights first does not seem intended to me. Maybe my perception is biased as a software developer but the interactions seem to be pushing the system to gain an unintentional advantage.
@@dialupsyndrome1910 fight first is one of the strongest rules in the game which is why Custodes are exceptional strong atm so having some counter play for those weaker units that only specialise in combat gives them some counter play. But there are some instances where the rules can get a bit strange like firing from an spike on the model around a corner, or having a gun barrel hang off the edge of the board but still able to draw line of sight over dead space.
Dont really understand example 3
I disagree with number 3 personally
Wanna know how to not trade 1 unit for a transport? Magically have a second!
Theoretical: one unit doesn't trade well against full transports.
Practical: use 2 units
@@williamwalsh4743”touch me again brother I will theoretically punch you in your practical face” 😅
Is melee even good anymore ?
too gamey for my taste
After killing the vehicle at 2:53. You ask if he wants to interrupt In his turn. Doesn't all "fights first" units go. Your other unit charged..
If he had cp he could do a strat to make himself interrupt and fight
@RMCbreezy Which one? Counter-Offensive requires you to be in engagement-range. They were not.
I was thinking of counter offensive, so youre right on that. For SM could be your Armor of Contempt or Only in Death Does Duty End. I would say detachment depending is what theyre thinking?