EP 138: The Emotional Lives of Parents Caught in the Gender Maelstrom
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Join Sasha & Stella for this candid conversation delving into the intricate realm of parenting children who identify as transgender. They discuss the fear, confusion, and complex emotions parents face when dealing with their child's gender identity. The conversation touches on the challenges of communicating with their children and the potential risks and benefits of transitioning, emphasizing the importance of making the process more nuanced and less black-and-white, helping young people understand the complexity of their experiences, fostering resilience and offering a realistic perspective on the long-term impacts of gender transition.
The conversation also explores the emotional challenges, including doubts and fears that parents often confront, such as the sense of losing their child to a different persona. They examine the loss of innocence that frequently accompanies adolescence, and the grieving process, a profound experience for these parents, acknowledging that many parents, in these situations, may grapple with isolation and loneliness. Crucially, Sasha and Stella offer a nuanced perspective, emphasizing that these feelings are normal and not indicative of bad parenting. They celebrate parents for embracing a more thoughtful and reflective path through their child’s gender exploration, even when it's difficult and unpopular, exemplifying the emotional courage and bravery required to support their children on this journey.
This important discussion offers valuable insights into the unique challenges faced by parents when their children express transgender identities. It promotes empathy, understanding, and resilience within the family unit, fostering a more compassionate and supportive environment for these young individuals.
Gender Dysphoria: What It's Like For Parents
• EPISODE 16 - Gender Dy...
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If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
Episode 122 - We Wrote a Book: When Kids Say They're Trans | A Guide for Thoughtful Parents
• EP 122: We Wrote A Boo...
Episode 107 - What Your Teen is Trying to Tell You
• EPISODE 107: What Your...
Episode 70- We're Back! - Parents Lost in a Medical Scandal
• EPISODE 70 - We're Ba...
Episode 46 - Helena Part II: Advice for Parents from a Former Trans Kid
• EPISODE 46 - Helena Pa...
Episode 42 - ROGD & The Struggle to Grow Up
• Video
Episode 103 - Follow the Gender-brick Road: from Bi to Pan to Trans
• EPISODE 103: Follow th...
Episode 110 - Pathologizing Normal: The Lure of Identity Labels & Diagnoses
• EPISODE 110: Pathologi...
A list of episodes featuring the parent perspective:
Episode 55 - Who Gets to Decide What's Normal: A Conversation w/ Lisa Selin Davis
• EPISODE 55 - Who Gets ...
Episode 75 - Borderline Personality: Distorted Attempts to Integrate - A Conversation w/ Lisa Duval
• EPISODE 75 - Borderlin...
Episode 84 - Denise Caignon From 4thWaveNow: The View From Behind the Scenes
• EPISODE 84 - Denise Ca...
Episode 85 - Mother-Daughter Story: "I Didn’t Want to be Yours Anymore" w/ Dr. Maggie Goldsmith
• EPISODE 85 - Mother-D...
Episode 98 - StoicMom: Using Her Child’s Trans Identity for Personal Individuation
• EPISODE 98 - StoicMom ...
Episode 109 - What If We Are All Wrong: A Mother’s Regret with Rose
• EPISODE 109: What if W...
Episode 136 - Gender as a Communication, It's Not What You Think with Maggie Goldsmith
• EP 136: Gender as a Co...
Please visit www.widerlenspod.com to explore more content, access additional resources, or to join our listener community.
For more information about Sasha’s & Stella’s parent coaching membership groups:
Sasha Ayad: inspiredteentherapy.com/paren...
Stella O’Malley: www.stellaomalley.com/parent-c...
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As a mom the affect on my other child is so heartbreaking, the loss of his brother and best friend has devastated him and our family.
Your kid is still there tho, she’s not dead just a bit different now
NO! Not a "bit different". Another person entirely. If you say you are a different sex, then you become a different person. You are killing off the person you were born. The person you actually are. No one is saying you have to conform to sex stereotypes, or cultural norms. Sex is a binary, but how you live within that sex is infinite. This is not a hard concept to understand. So please stop the platitudes. I your child kills off the person there actually are, which is their sexed selves, then your child is gone. Period. So please learn to understand the pain that causes for the parent. Your actual child is dead! OMG people need to get this.@@Kaanfight
Such a comfort to listen to this. As a parent I say thank you.
Thanks Sasha and Stella- as parents we are suffering through this too and trying to hold our families together. I appreciate you both so much and that you recognize how complex this is. All of the feelings of guilt, shame, grief, dread- it feels so terribly lonely and it’s a relief to hear your voices and that you recognize the absolute struggle that this is. 🙏💔
I'm two years into this now as a parent. I wish I had listened to this 2 years ago. I'm so grateful for what you two do.
Excellent discussion. It's very encouraging to hear of the positive impact of your retreats on parents negotiating the minefield of their children's gender dysphoria.
You both have the nicest calmest voices.
I haven’t yet finished this episode but Stella said something that struck me. I have never and will never have regrets of having my children but this isn’t what I signed up for. This isn’t what I’ve worked for the last 2 decades, almost 3 decades, trying to form my children into moral upstanding adults who would be successful and contribute to society and frankly have a desire to instill these things in their own children. It’s heartbreaking and sad but it does also make me frustrated and at times mad. That they did this to us, to their own family.
I thought children were human beings in themselves and you do the best you can as a parent. Also I feel like you’re talking about your child like they’ve committed a mass tragedy…trans people are just as capable as living full, happy and moral lives as cis people. It seems you feel their existence is some kind of affront to you. It sounds like you have a lot to work through.
@@Sarah-re7cgif you're listening to this podcast you understand the complexity and the dangers involved in the desire to change one's biological sex. Rather than admonish parents, why not find ways of helping your community, like fund raisers for transmen and women who've had multiple and sometimes botched operations, who suffer effects of puberty blockers and sex hormones, or who continue being deeply depressed despite transitioning?
@@suedavis1781 here’s my observation: there’s a convenient leap of logic you’re making that I hope you’re noticing. You’re talking about the risks and concerns surrounding how one approaches transitioning, if they do decide to transition in any way or at least explore the possibility of transitioning (remember, transitioning is a very wide spectrum with all kinds of personal experiences and choices…no 2 trans experiences are alike). Great, I think that’s an extremely valid and important conversation to have at large, one which, when it comes down to actual action taking place, is between whatever medical and psychological professionals and the individual seeking treatment. Here’s the part where you’re making a leap: concerns and risks exist, therefore, stop all and any access to any kind of treatment and care. I’m sorry, what? Let’s apply your leap in logic to a much more uncontroversial topic, depression treatment. Depression treatment looks very different from one individual to another, there are risks involved, including the effects of some medications that could exacerbate symptoms at which point either a new medication should be explored or the dosage needs to tweaked (we have medically trained professionals to make these calls). We know that people suffering from depression is an incredibly nuanced condition and experience and that some individuals have never found the proper treatment to this day and are suffering from not being able to have adequate access to the care they need. Does that mean we should just completely shut down any and all treatment for all individuals suffering from depression? No, absolutely not. The problem isn’t with getting treatments for depression. The problem is adequate access to those treatments and being able to find what works for the individual. The exact same thing applies to treatment of gender dysphoria, which by the way depression is a side affect of having gender dysphoria. It is wild that your response is to stop all kinds of treatment instead of fighting for better access to care. Those people you mentioned? Yeah, they need better access to care because whatever risks involved that effected them, they deserve to have those affects ameliorated under the supervision and care of a medical professional. The course of action you are arguing for is literally creating and exacerbating the problems you outlined in the first place. Make it make sense. Oh, I know how, it’s because you just want this “problem” to disappear except that’s not how that works. Instead of driving further into this hysterical psychosis that this podcast and these women are driving, which by the way is a pretty lucrative business for them, you could bite the bullet and start focusing on the reality of the situation by addressing why you are so disturbed by the concept of transgender community in the first place. It’s fine to be scared and anxious, but you know and I know that parents at the end of the day have to be brave and honest with themselves first so they can be honest with their children. You and your child are on the same team. These women are framing the situation as parents vs children and society. That is not normal and that is not okay.
@@Sarah-re7cg whoever you are you have no idea what I think or feel. Why are you so accusatory towards me and others? Do you need the whole world to affirm you? You seem so convinced about your own perceptions yet completely unwilling to question your assumptions. In the real world your attitude is gauche.
@@suedavis1781 I mean I kind of do know what you think and feel, you just wrote a comment about what you think and feel lol yikes! Who is accusing you of anything? Also, idk, I don’t even know what you’re talking about to be honest. No offense, you’re coming off as completely unhinged 😬
Really appreciated this episode. The acknowledgement of feelings of disgust (at seeing one's child so transformed) meant a lot to me as I have experienced this and found these emotions jarring, shameful and difficult to deal with. The grief over the loss of ease between you and your child and their loss of innocence. And the need to get on with your own life too and try to make something good of the present.
You are doing such a great job. With so much love and care. And you never lose your sense of humor. Thank you so much for sharing this update.
At the 50 min mark, the conversation became really powerful - when parents realize "I need to get my life back". That's one of the reason I love StoicMom (substack and episode 98) so much. Her group focuses on parents who have experienced this hell and are ready to get their lives back.
Parenting has never been an easy job. There's always been the sense that you're being judged by the people around you.
Now, thanks to social media, complete strangers who know barely anything about your situation can heap judgement upon you with no repercussions.
When so many people, including trained professionals, are telling you that you're hurting your child by questioning their desire to transition; it's incredibly hard not to give in.
We must spread the truth everywhere and give parents the tools and support they need to be able to stand against this storm of lies and truly protect their children.
RE: the disgust element, I think when it's a father with AGP doing it, the disgust knows no bounds, because yes it's an individual's choice, but he is choosing to basically blow up his entire family in pursuit of his AGP. The way a lot of these men seem to be triggered to do this by their own daughters reaching age where their bodies are changing, or when wife is pregnant, also provokes the most powerful disgust. I think disgust with regards to AGP is quite distinct thing compared to, say, ROGD girls, or same-s* attracted hsts making these individualistic choices and going their own way.
Yes absolutely, but also it's really hard for me to bare some voices after an unfortunate encounter with T
It can stress me out to see a physical person and then hear a not fitting voice and this doesn't stop so far for me, to be honest, not even if I listen to them for hours.
... also to me, a het male, it feels like such a pity and big turn off in attraction theory when one lost her original voice, to be honest. And since we reference to a discussion about honest disgust, I feel like I need to say this, hidden in a comment to a comment. ;)
On the power struggle concept of it prolonging. My husband told me I needed to calm down, that it wasn't a thing anymore and that she would just say certain things to get to me. I still follow a lot of trans information and of course every new Wider Lens podcast but I know that I am very closely watching ( clinging) actually to the thought that this might creep back in.
Last night she told me that she officially has had a boyfriend.
There is a lot to how we got here. It's been rough but my heart goes out to all of the families.
Don’t miss Stella’s interview on the Megyn Kelly show. It was impressive as usual. ❤
Thank you for this episode! It was almost as powerful as the Dr Miriam Grossman interview where she acknowledged the continuing trauma that parents experience when they have a trans identified child. To have the overlooked fact that parents can lose the support of family and friends spoken about feels so helpful! So excited to see you both at the upcoming conference!
Another great conversation. Thank you both for the work you do.
Hand written calendar ? Woman after my own heart.😊
FYI Sasha, ALL cultures are communal cultures. That is the definition of culture, it involves everyone in the community.
For every choice we make, we are choosing away all the alternatives... If you can live with that, fine. Which doesn't in any way preclude our right to change our minds anytime.
Fwiw I don't agree with the person who said you could use some editing. The conversational flow is very engaging and I worry that editing would disrupt that.
I loved their disagreements! Yes, Stella, if something is devastating to the people you love, you should try to find alternative choices!! And feminists may not make every single decision thinking "what is best for society/women/liberation",--nobody does, nobody can--but it's one thing to annul the individual and the self in a very collective/communal society, and another to completely disregard the negative consequences of individual decisions because hey, i'm an individual and i need to "do me"... THAT is a spectrum...
There aren’t really alternatives to not being transgender though…you just are who you are.
There is no such thing as "transgender", just people with unresolved emotional problems who need help.@@Sarah-re7cg
Wish I could have attended. This one was cost prohibitive😢.
Sasha & Stella are Punk Rock.
Is this satire?
At the half hour mark, I loved Stella’s discussion about the special role of parents, and how she compared it to the parents of men who became priests. Very interesting.
Weirdly for us the name has become a big deal. Everyone in our young teen daughter’s life except immediate family calls her by her made up male nane. That name triggers me. I think it’s because it’s the symbol of when I became a irrelevant, in the eyes of society, to my child’s life.
Irrelevant is a pretty strong word. Sorry you feel that way.
@@Sarah-re7cg I told the school at a meeting in front of my 13 year old daughter that they were not allowed to treat my daughter like a boy. My daughter then witnessed them do it anyway. Same with her doctor. It was soul crushing.
@@lauramiller1464 I’m sorry you feel irrelevant. Have you been curious about how your child feels or talked to them about it? There is a reason why they are wanting to be addressed in such a way. I know children teach us so much and it’s a privilege to be able to be any part of their inner world. It would be heartbreaking to see a parent not be a part of their child’s exploration of their authentic self. Take care.
@@Sarah-re7cg To clarify, I do not feel irrelevant in my child’s life. She is thriving and showing strong signs of desisting. IMO because we give her room to be a girl. I feel irrelevant to the schools, my child doctor, and to mental health professionals. I no longer trust anything the school says nor do I trust what doctors or any other professionals say. The fact that you used they/them versus she/her pronouns makes what you say suspect too.
@@lauramiller1464 well you referred to your child as your daughter where educators and medical personnel seem to be referring to them as a boy so my use of “them” is a an attempt at neutrality. Idk the entire situation, so yeah. I’ve noticed this comment section is INCREDIBLY hostile so I’m not at all surprised my attempts of neutrality are perceived as suspicious.
Thank you for bringing up the disgust topic. It is very true and instinctive in some aspects. And individuals have the right to feel it, it's not like inclusivity must go this far.
Whilst I don't understand Iseult White's accusation in Killarney that ALL straight people feel disgusted when they think about homosexual sex, I get this one and everybody is entitled to feel any way about both things. And who generalises is wrong...
Disgust or repulsion can be instinctive, but it’s also very much taught. There’s a difference between allowing yourself to own how you truly feel and then fish out those biases and build new neural connections vs justifying and leaning into it. Also, the voice thing she mentioned…thats a puberty thing…sorry but your kids voice was going to change regardless. Whatever specific disgust she has sounds like something she personally needs to reflect on.
It seems even worse than you say, because at the end of the process you don’t get a child of either sex. You get something In between. And we don’t know yet what that is.
I'm struggling to find professional to help for my 17 year old...we live in Australia. HOW can I find one that is more of an exploratory approach instead of an affirming one?
Hello. Just listened to your podcast but wanted to make a comment here. The discussion around voice and body change was important information and Stella don’t apologise for bringing it up. There are so many unknowns within this area - any information you can impart is excellent. Thank you both. 🇬🇧
It’s important to vocalize your own disgust towards your own child experiencing puberty? What is wrong with you people?
@@Sarah-re7cgWhat the hell are you on about?
A girl's voice deepening and growing facial hair is NOT "experiencing puberty".
What's wrong with YOU?
@@aidananstey9848 ok, so voices change in puberty, period. I don’t sound like my 5 year old self. My voice is actually deeper. Most women’s are. Why? Because I and all other women through puberty. Like, what? Why are you pretending like this is new information to you, tf
@@aidananstey9848 also actually some girls do grow facial hair, specifically cis women who may have pcos. Okay do you just not live in reality or not know the nuances of puberty lol
@@Sarah-re7cg Always the rare exceptions, you know damn well, the discussion is about girl's growing BEARDS from the use of TESTOSTERONE.
38:05 what do you mean crash and burn? Approach
❤❤️
The interviews with Kiera Bell after her court case victory illustrated how much the voice is a signal of femininity. The poor woman.
Stella,, you wiggle and wriggle and bump the mic as much as you like! AND please bring your tin whistle next time and play us a jig and Sasha can dance while you're playing.
59:47 Dear Stella, dear producer team - so I guess you need to bring such a fancy mic in! Then moving around wouldn't be an issue.
hug
Producer here, it's not really a mic issue, although new Yeti or Shure mics would be great and we'd be happy to accept those as gifts, if anyone is offering! There's been a slew of other technical issues, that are hard to solve when people are miles and oceans apart; but I think we are past most of them and appreciate our audience's patience. :)
Wow. This part about kids not responding to stats is interesting and probably right on. I’m so obsessed with stats like you’re twice as likely to have a stroke if you have a hysterectomy before age 45. I feel like I never hear numbers or science in this debate and for me it’s crucial. BUT, that probably doesn’t translate to young people very well.
25:30 Helium voice
dating pool waning voice!
Voices are an erotic component you (or at least I) fall in love with.
It'd be a big turn off for me.
..Someone comments on how I approach gender with my kid..
Me: Oh yeah? What color are her eyes?
Them: …. …. …
Me: Oh so you think you know better than me about my child?
HER eyes are hazel with a gold rim.
I think it’s important for parents to have a space to voice their concerns and work through the grief and changes of letting go of the image and concept of their child they’ve created in their own head. That way, they’ll be able to welcome, support and really get to know the person in front of them that is their authentic child. That being said, all the things the woman with the Irish accent said about the fear of the unknown and grave concern for them later on down the road….isn’t that…sort of an integral part of parenthood? And the part she mentioned about the “disgust” towards the voice was really alarming…voice changes, bodily changes, attitude changes, that’s literally puberty. It seems like she has an unhealthy attachment towards the concept or idea of her children or parents of their offspring in general. The grieving doesn’t have to be on such a heightened level if parents didn’t attach rigid expectations to their children before they’re even born. Some people in the comment section are saying “I didn’t sign up for this as a parent” and I’m confused because signing up for being a parent is signing up for the unknown. That’s why its a role and choice that shouldn’t be taken lightly. Something that is also making me uncomfortable is this sense of ownership that parents feel over their children. Yes, they’re YOUR child and that bond is special and you’re tasked with protecting them, but they’re also full-fledged human beings separate from you. I think it’s weird we don’t bat an eye when we’re already and always have been implicitly and explicitly been bombarding children with gender ideas…even before they’re even born. But the moment we acknowledge how much gender plays a role in identity and we see what it really is, suddenly there’s a huge problem the moment children might actually be someone who we didn’t sign off on. Should there be a space for parents to freak out and talk about their children? Yes. But I keep seeing these spaces turn from leaning on one another and giving one another grace in the experience of having a transgender child into this outright denial of their child being transgender and coercing and subjecting their child to psychological trauma because they (the parent) feel some sense of entitlement over who their child is.
I hear what you’re saying. I do. I really do. But I will say this experience throws such a curve ball so fast at you that you have no choice but to struggle. It is just human to feel this way as a parent. I’ll add as they mention as well, it’s not just your kid, it’s the doctors, the neighbors, the schools telling you that you are a bad parent for not going along. Imagine how it feels when everyone around you tells you that you need to medicalize your fifteen year old. Yes, medicalize, and asap. That’s why we are having such a hard time.
It’s okay to acknowledge feeling that way and to be scared and confused. It just is, you know? That being said, again, the comments about disgust this woman made is really concerning. It’s one thing for a parent to be in a private space and acknowledge those feelings and figuring out how to get to the root of where that comes from, but this is a therapist at the helm saying SHE feels that way. Say what? Therapists are supposed to guide patients through their own personal experiences, not inject their own thoughts and ideas that actively cause regression and more of a rift between them and their children during a time that their children need them most. One of my parents is an LPC and the chatter in this video really did not sit right with me.
@@NorCalMomI’m sure you’re over people giving suggestions, but I personally highly suggest the book Good Inside by Dr. Becky Kennedy. Take care.
@@NorCalMom edit for your most recent addition: what if you held your child’s hand through the process? I know children teach us so much, just as much as we teach them. What if for a moment you suspended everything and became a curious observer? Whatever happens, your child will always remember how saw them and heard them. Let’s say they end up figuring out that that’s actually not what they need and that’s okay. They’ll always remember that you were there and listened to their voice. The concerns I’m hearing from other parents in this comment section, honestly it sounds like their worst fear is their child asking why did you let me do that? I have a number of questions towards my parents about how they actively harmed me in ways, but I also have used the discernment that has been allowed to me by them to understand they were trying their best. When you trust your child to learn and grow and give them space to really understand themselves, whatever happens, you were always there in the end.
@@NorCalMom edit for your most recent addition: what if you held your child’s hand through the process? I know children teach us so much, just as much as we teach them. What if for a moment you suspended everything and became a curious observer? Whatever happens, your child will always remember how saw them and heard them. Let’s say they end up figuring out that that’s actually not what they need and that’s okay. They’ll always remember that you were there and listened to their voice. The concerns I’m hearing from other parents in this comment section, honestly it sounds like their worst fear is their child asking why did you let me do that? I have a number of questions towards my parents about how they actively harmed me in ways, but I also have used the discernment that has been allowed to me by them to understand they were trying their best. When you trust your child to learn and grow and give them space to really understand themselves, whatever happens, you were always there in the end.
So is Sasha arguing that personal fulfillment ALWAYS trunps social ham? Seem unlikely.
She is definitely propping up narcissism.
I was way more accepting before. I viewed trans as a variant of gay but now I see it more like a deep and severe discontent with the way one presents, closer to anorexia than anything else. And the experts have a medical treatment that is as dangerous as helping an anorectic loose weight
C'mon... Dementia does not even come close to dealing with a fake identity.