EP 136: Gender as a Communication (It's Not What You Think) with Dr. Maggie Goldsmith
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- In this episode, Maggie Goldsmith returns to the podcast for a conversation about the psychodynamic approach in understanding gender identity issues, particularly in children and adolescents. Maggie shares her personal journey, shedding light on how rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) can signal a need for change within the family dynamic. She puts an emphasis on the importance of delving into unconscious processes that shape identity and behavior. The discussion covers theories about how key developmental stages, such as symbiosis and paranoid schizoid positions, can impact self-perception and relationships. Psychodynamic therapy is highlighted as a tool for deeper exploration, benefiting both the child and their family. Maggie also highlights how parental anxiety can affect the parent-child relationship, so self-care is crucial for both the parent and child's well-being. Sasha, Stella and Maggie share anecdotes about how different children may respond to discussions about gender identity and how parents need to adapt to their child's unique needs and circumstances. The conversation underscores the importance of open communication and maintaining a healthy relationship with the child throughout their journey of self-discovery.
Dr. Maggie Goldsmith is the author of the PITT essay “To My Daughter’s Therapist: You Were Wrong”, which was the first essay from the PITT Substack to go viral and put PITT on the map. It can be found in a recently published book that includes 75 essays by parents who have gender questioning children.
Since her first Wider Lens episode (#85), she has been very busy with a full caseload of kids and families impacted by gender dysphoria. Dr. Maggie’s approach to this work is grounded in object relations theory and supported by an understanding of human development throughout the life course. This places the family and the parent-child relationship in a position of primary importance as they manage and repair the inevitable ruptures of adolescence.
This is a captivating conversation, offering a unique perspective on the intersection of psychoanalytic theory, gender identity, and the practical implications for clinicians and parents alike.
Links:
Mother-Daughter Story: "I Didn’t Want to be Yours Anymore" w/ Dr. Maggie Goldsmith
• EPISODE 85 - Mother-D...
PITT Book
Parents with Inconvenient Truths about Trans: Tales from the Home Front in the Fight to Save Our Kids
www.amazon.com...
PITT Substack Articles
Trans and the Myth of Sloppy Parenting
pitt.substack....
To My Daughter's Therapist: You Were Wrong
pitt.substack....
Connect with Therapists:
www.genderexpl...
criticaltherap...
beyondtrans.org/
Order Our Book - When Kids Say They’re Trans: A Guide for Thoughtful Parents
whenkidssaythe...
Support the Show & Access Exclusive Content
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Join the conversation on RUclips
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If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
Episode 35 - Communicating About Gender: Translating Between Parent & Child
• EPISODE 35 - Communica...
Episode 75 - Borderline Personality: Distorted Attempts to Integrate - A Conversation w/ Lisa Duval
• EPISODE 75 - Borderlin...
Episode 84 - Denise Caignon From 4thWaveNow: The View From Behind the Scenes
• EPISODE 84 - Denise Ca...
Episode 98 - StoicMom: Using Her Child’s Trans Identity for Personal Individuation
• EPISODE 98 - StoicMom ...
Episode 109 - What If We Are All Wrong: A Mother’s Regret with Rose
• EPISODE 109: What if W...
Episode 110 - Pathologizing Normal: The Lure of Identity Labels & Diagnoses
• EPISODE 110: Pathologi...
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For more information about Sasha’s & Stella’s parent coaching membership groups:
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This was a very nuanced conversation and one that people might mistake as proposing that a parent must change themselves to suit the child so I for one wish to say that I don’t believe that is what “Maggie” meant. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. The takeaway I have from the conversation, having reared 3 children is this; the behaviour that manifests on the surface is never representative of the child’s actual internal conflict. Yes, adjust your rigidities as an adult human, do the work but that doesn’t mean sacrificing the parent child boundaries that children need to feel safe. If you hand over your parenting power to a child you sacrifice their safety and put them in a position of monstrous power that is terrifying to a child. You are then asking the child to set the tone, values and morals of the family which they are too immature to do. In effect, you are parentifying the child at huge cost to the child itself. For a parent, imposing ways of being and behavioural expectations is one thing where values and morals are concerned but doing it the way I say not how I do, is a fastrack to loss of the respect of your child. Creating safe boundaries and widening them bit by bit as the child grows is necessary but that’s not the same as imposing ways of being, expectations and standards that may be inappropriate for individual children. Requiring a child to be a mirror image of you speaks of intolerance and black and white thinking and says to the child, you are not acceptable and not lovable because unless I approve of everything about who you are, I will reject you. That tells the child that they themselves are “wrong” and what that is is Narcissism 101. No child appreciates their lives being policed or filled with “doing”. Time to dream, space to drift is essential to a growing child; to be allowed to just be. Finally, children don’t want a pushover of a parent. They want a parent they can butt up against without knocking you over. They want to respect and look up to the parent for their consistency (however that consistency manifests itself but I do primarily mean values) even if they disagree with you. This is how they know they can trust your response. This is where your job is to let them know you can agree to disagree but you’re willing to discuss anything from any angle they wish and you will hear their concerns and worries and confusions without judging them or putting them in the bold corner or reacting as though this is about you, not them. You do not let their peer group take over your job as parent. That’s why we need to hold our children close and keep them talking and engaging so we know who they are as they develop. You cannot be their friend because your job is to be their parent. Of course that changes when they get to adulthood when you can have an entirely different relationship as befits both of you in your adult status. Navigating all of this is a huge task. As parents we police ourselves in a way our parents never did. Sometimes we need to cut ourselves some slack, even if the kid won’t.
Such a great interview with Maggie! My daughter has desisted, too, and it’s true how this affects parents. It’s traumatizing for us.
"Interesting perspective" .My parents were embarrassed for people to call me a girl, only play with girls refuse to learn to ride a bike because they would not give me a girls bike until 13. Refused toys, refuse all male sex based activities.They still deny what they did for years trying to "adjust my thinking" , never stopped. I have no contact with them.
Every transsexual that i know has similar experiences or worse . Disgusting that you present this poor young women's issues & deny the huge differences between so many current cohorts as if everyone desists .🤮
I want to push back a little bit on what Maggie said about fathers affirming and mothers "flipping out". I am yet to see an "inspiring" story of a trans child in which the mother isn't front and centre in the frame. Fathers are routinely talked about as being unaware, uncaring or confused into dumb passivity when a child chooses to transition, I don't think this is quite fair.
From a different viewpoint the stereotypical "Father's Reaction" could also be seen as akin to "watchful waiting" rather than desperate "doing" and change, or the maintenance of stability over desperate worry. On a podcast the other day I listened to a mother who has been completely cut out of her trans son's life. She spoke about her regret at her powerful reactions and response, and said that her husband (who had been for caution and a more "hands off" response) had stood by her, and defended her, out of loyalty and a united front, even though his own instincts about how to react were different. A family response to huge events will often follow the path forged by the strongest responder.
Also, I think the reason why 90 odd percent of the people at the GDSM meetings are mothers are for this reason as well, they want to find out, to affect change, to restore order. I don't think it is too much of a push to say that if, as Maggie suggested, transition is perhaps a demand for the mother to change, or to affirm, or to "do", this will be reflected in the cohort of people that are desperately seeking answers as to what to "do". Maybe, as mothers are the primary object of attachment they are also the primary affirmers and primary deniers? Anyway, I think it's important to resist the easy pigeonholing of the fathers as neutered objects of passive indifference, they will, more often than not, be standing beside, and going along with, those that are pushing most strongly in any one direction, be that affirmation, denial or resistance.
Thank you, yes! This is such an important often misunderstood dynamic.
Such an important conversation. I was really glad to hear a shoutout to StoicMom. StoicMom is such a calm presence in a sea of anguish for us non-affirming parents, she's on substack.
It was really helpful to hear from Dr. Goldsmith, a parent who's child has desisted from trans-identification. My daughter seems to be in the process of desisting, but it's positively nerve-wracking - 2 steps forward, 1 step back is correct. It was helpful to hear that I shouldn't look for an abrupt desistance nor an apology for all the trauma she put our family through. I'm surprised with how angry I am at her - for years all I thought I would only feel relief.
I also found the discussion about children using their trans-identity as a demand to change the relationship dynamic useful. This was definitely the case for me. After years of micromanaging her IEP (for dyslexia), she was metaphorically screaming for me to back-off. It was hard, but I did it. I stopped looking at her grades and reminding her to do her work. She stumbled, but did not fall, and now she's doing fabulous and feeling proud of managing her own schoolwork. She's still recorded as a boy in the school system, but wearing makeup, crop-tops, and not afraid of showing cleavage. Holding my breath.
How is she doing now?
How is she doing now?
I so appreciate you both and enjoyed this interview. Honestly I found it hard to listen to at times as I kept feeling that assigning blame to the “moms” was what I was hearing. Over simplifying things by saying “you just have to change!”made me uncomfortable. This is hard enough. I agree that there is a real value in assessing your relationship with your child and being mindful of yourself and how you are handling things. The reality is this turns your life upside down and is so destabilizing. Being on the same page as parents is also so important. Maybe I’m just feeling sensitive today but i found myself getting annoyed! For families dealing with this we know how complicated it is. Most of us aren’t clinicians and aren’t fortunate enough to be able to move to another country. Bravo for any “fairy tale endings” in our lives and in the lives of our kids. I want to be optimistic but this is too often just not the case…
Agreed. Finding this podcast very mother blaming.
I think something I've done before, and therefore have spotted in others too because it's like a mirror, is take stuff personally that my kid does. It's so hard not to. For me the thing that clears the way is not doing that where I can help it, and kind of getting above the situation as if it were a maze, try to see it from a distant view. Not easy. But worth the effort. Full disclosure: my kid is not in the midst of gender dysphoria. But they can be a real handful!
Neutral pronoun used for lack of identification not anything else 😁
Thank you, this is such a helpful, practical, and enlightening conversation. I so appreciate discussions like this where parental behaviors or family systems are challenged. Ultimately the only person we can change is ourselves, and this conversation gave me a lot of hope that investing time in self-reflection and letting go of some parental practices that I've been holding tight to may have a positive impact on my family and my child in ways I hadn't understood before. This video had a lot of oh wow moments for me, especially once I was able to move through some of my first defensive reactions. Will definitely watch again.
Very good podcast my child is not desisted but we have naturally changed our dynamics and are working together the whole family doing fun things together and keeping the communications open.
Perhaps the communication is to the fathers: I need both of you to see me. Asking the mothers to be the ones to initiate the change in the "family system" is already using the same family system in which the mom organizes and assumes all responsibility...
100% father's getting off scott free as usual!
@@sharonw2008 or being pushed out of contributing in their childrens lives.
Maybe the change that needs to be made is this, that the father needs to step into a different spot in the dynamic, that the mum needs to acknowledge she's tapped out. There's an acknowledgement I think that mums are the primary point of a lot of things for a kid. We need to be able to see that and see where fathers can add a different flavour. Particularly with gender roles.
Interesting point. I think it is diff for boys - definitely a Father dynamic which contributes. Gabor Mate would say modern families and parents are sometimes too distressed to be present for a sensitive child whose is often traumatized by not being seen- or who when they are struggling are told to cheer up and the repression of their emotions causes anger and depression. Then something bad happens - dog dies- first broken heart -Trauma seems to be at the root - small t or big T -then they find trans- and in our case big sister came in to school us all and the wedge was placed between us and our kids. We are all still trying to find a place of healing but nobody wants to address this as a family issue.
If you are lucky enough to find a therapist worth their salt maybe you can figure out the family system that creates this perfect storm… often another child is taking up the oxygen in the room and this is an unconscious way to get noticed. IDK- it’s very complicated and can be very hard to unravel and stay sane.
Imagine raising kids in one of the most privileged luxurious environments in the world where most of us want for nothing, and as a parent you have to worry about some seemingly minor dynamics in your household or with your parenting choices - that are so subtle you would never even fathom your child is being harmed - but its apparently leading your child down a path of self destruction and destroying their mental health? I feel like we have been stuck inside this coddling helicopter parenting bubble culturally for so long this doesn't seem ludicrous to people that we even have to worry or obsess about this stuff (like listening to this parent musing how her daughter 'needed her to change herself' so she could be some better more perfect version of a parent that her daughter 'needed', so she could have magically prevented her daughter from being emotionally and psychologically unbalanced and fragile. What !?!? Newflash, parents back in the day would be what is considered awful and evil by todays standards and kids weren't descending into emotional and psychological chaos like this. Children have become more fragile because we are raising them to be fragile messes), when our kids lives are better than most children's lives ever were in history, and are better than most children's lives in the entire world. Half the problem is they don't seem to recognize this!
Thank you! I generally love Gender a Wider Lens, but this one actively pissed me off. "We did too much", "We did too little". Please stop blaming the parents. Trans is a cult and those of us whose kids got caught up in it are the collateral damage of a psychological hurricane.
I actually got a lot from this just as a parent, full stop. So good.
Good point about lockdowns... I think lockdowns are also in a way 'puberty blockers'.The kids got WAY worse when not being able to interact with eachother in a natural way..
As I understand it, Maggie came to the conclusion that her daughter professed to be trans as a maladaptive response to Maggie's efforts to help her avoid the problems Maggie encountered during her own adolescence. Maggie's daughter desisted when Maggie finally let go of trying to ease her daughter's transition into womanhood and adulthood. Expanding the scale to other families, Maggie has concluded that what makes daughters decide they're boys is a communication problem within the family. Moms are really blowing it badly. Is that the gist of it?
If so, the explanation raises more questions than it answers. For example, does Maggie maintain that she has identified the principal cause of teen girl transgenderism? If so, what is the empirical basis for Maggie's assertion that daughters' frustration with the way their moms communicate with them is causing teen girls to identify as trans? Why trans in particular? What was the size of the population she studied, and what means did she use to rule out other causes? Did she follow the scientific method? More importantly, if a mother can harm her daughter by seeking to smooth the path to adulthood, for example, what kind of mothering does Maggie propose instead? Also, what about other explanations for female-to-male gender transition such as social contagion, the concrete thinking of autism or a teen girl's dread of undergoing and having to live with the physical changes that come with adolescence?
In a separate vein, the written intro to the episode states: "The discussion covers theories about how key developmental stages, such as symbiosis and paranoid schizoid positions, can impact self-perception and relationships. Psychodynamic therapy is highlighted as a tool for deeper exploration, benefiting both the child and their family."
Now, a 2018 paper stated that: "high-quality outcome studies . . . show that psychodynamic psychotherapy is as effective in the treatment of a range of mental disorders as other psychological treatment modalities." * However, finding that psychodynamic therapy is effective as a treatment for certain mental health problems is not the same as saying that the existence of the "key developmental stages" in psychodynamic therapy "such as symbiosis and paranoid schizoid positions" have been proven by means of the scientific method. I would be very reluctant to embark upon a course of psychodynamic therapy in which the therapist employed a model of key development stages (explicitly or in the background) unless I was confident that they were grounded in reality even if they were metaphorical in nature. Where's the proof that there is such a thing the "symbiosis" stage of development? Otherwise how is it different from, say, phrenology or Tarot?
*Brief Psychodynamic Psychotherapy: A Review and Illustrative Case Vignette. Jessica Porcelan, MD and Katherine Scribner; Monitoring Editor: Julie P. Gentile, MD. Innovations in Clinical Neuroscience, 2022 Jan-Mar; 19(1-3): 52-55. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8970238/
I had similar thoughts while listening to the episode. Thank you for this thorough write-up.
In regard to the unfortunate branding of childhood development phases, these "unpleasant names" are descriptions of behaviour in a child that we'd call by those names if seen in adults. The difference is that the adult is considered broken because after X amount of years you should be able to move past that hamstrung developmental stage, but these adults are stuck.
So if seen in a child, the description isn't broken. It's just a word so an adult can understand it. I'm not quite convinced of the utility to make a child-variant for these terms.
A gentle pushback on parents knowing their kids - many do, and probably many more than when I was a kid 45 years ago, but I had a very secret life in some ways which my parents knew nothing about (I had a stepmother who I had a pretty rocky relationship with, so that's an obvious factor of course).
100% Especially around sex and sexuality. I remember the mother of a friend of mine telling my mother that she thought that her daughter (aged about 20) might not still be a virgin. Her daughter had had more then half a dozen sexual partners at this point.
This conversation was so important to me. I really appreciate hearing from parents of children who have desisted. ❤
Hang in there. The tide is turning 🙏🏼
"Rapid onset gender dysphoria is demand."
Likely a good characterization. I think we've detected it's a form of taking control. A protest, a coup. And for parents who experience this protest, it's time to be a bit introspective.
Re "the 2nd toddlerhood" comment: YES. Toddler-era neural networks reconsolidate in adolescence. And toddlerhood is "all about ambivalence about separation.
Be interesting to study the kids that are immune to the social media pressure to transition. Is there something about them and their relationship with their parents that protects them from this.
They probably just have a different method of rebelling / individuating that isn't focused on being LGBTQIA+ or oppressed in some way.
I'm wondering if this isn't some kind of tribal behaviour. The kids find their tribe outside of the home somehow, it may be lbtq, it may be some gang, or within sports or music or some other kind of space and these groups all affect the relationship with the parents differently but have one thing in common: the kid can break free but don't have to go into social void, there's a group of people waiting, or some times just a boy-/girlfriend. I think the immune kids have some other tribe. Perhaps what parents can do is try to permit the kids to form strong connections to healthy groups, so when the time comes to break free it won't be some destructive cult or whatever he/she goes to.
Sorry, english isn't my first language and I don't know if this makes any sence
Wow 🤯 my Mother environment is huge in my situation! I am the non affirmative mother of ROGD young adult (child) but have a very affirmative oldest daughter that hijacked her 2 younger siblings 💔 ( 6 yrs between each 29,23,18). She has thwarted my relationship and I don’t know how to reach any of them anymore.
Thank you for this episode today, it reaffirms my recent decision to distance myself from them all and give them time and space to find their way back home to me💘
And I will stop sending him detrans videos! ( maybe just 1 more 😂)
Wow, I can't imagine how hard this is on you.
Siblings can be a nightmare. They gang up on the parents.
So great. This looks good :) thank you!
I'm having the issues you speak of with the separation and her also being my youngest daughter and these underlying issues.I want to let go but you feel that you just can't
24:56 I don’t understand the equivocating about use of “mother” all throughout this. It’s very of a piece with gender theory’s whole project about dismantling “woman” as a concept and word to describe reality. This IS rage at the mother. The relationship with the father IS a completely different thing. It is biologically different. It makes me dizzy that even here there is so much walking on eggshells about stating the biological connection between mother and daughter, or mother and son.
Mothers are the ones in all these forums BECAUSE they are the mother. Yes there are definitely fathers trying to fight for their kids too, but in most cases the mother is playing the central role, either in pouring all emotion and effort into trying to keep the kid from medicalising, or on the other side of things, the mother is the one deeply wrapped up in being the driving force/cheerleader/support for the medicialising child.
I feel so turned off nowadays when hearing people try and sort of say a mother is anyone who does the prinary caregiving, regardless of them being a man or a woman. A mother is a very specific thing.
edit: And I'm sorry if this comment comes off as harsh, I thought it was a great conversation and I know Maggie was often using "mother" unambiguously to mean the female parent who grew the baby in her body for 9 months and gave birth and does the bulk of care for the child in the first years of its life - it's just at this point in this whole mess I feel really fatigued with people not acknowledging that the biological is central to "woman" and "mother", and that a lot of things psychologically / socially are downstream from those most fundamental biological realities.
I agree that it's a sign of the denigration of women and it's part of the dismantling of women and the role of women.
Ppl feel guilty about stating the reality of mothers in raising children instead of valuing it. In part I understand not treating women as "just" mothers. But I think we've gone too far the other way and we really don't appreciate what role mothers play. It's also quite hard for men to come to terms with the likelihood that they'll play a secondary role.
Thanks!
Thank you!
Fascinating episode to listen to, with a lot of important issues brought up. It seems to me that "Maggie" believes she found "the cause" and "the solution" to GD in teens, while it is quite clear that there are a number of causes and a number of solutions. Being so sure about "her way" wouldn't be a problem, if she wasn't a threapist working with gender confused teens. I feel she is very much focused on her own family dynamics, her own trauma, and her own healing, which is all understandable. But I question her ability to work with other families in this state of anger and reduced self awareness. I wish Sasha and Stella asked more pointed questions, rather than feeling that they couldn't be critical of their friend and colleague.
43:43 was this conference in Helsinki? What happend there? So many of you in our podcasts bubble mentioned the Finland/Helsinki gathering but I didn't find anything about it. Was it SEGM internal? But with affirming attendees interested in dialogue?About the new guidelines I guess?
Hope it's OK I am asking. If thats too explicit for outside observers, go ahead and delete this posting!
...but then, what's under the anorexia?The 'remission' you followed with brought it home. Speaking as an older woman,
It's never over with.
Does "Maggie" really think that the Dutch Protocol actually works with European teens, and doesn't in North America due to our different attitudes to teens having sex? or this was an "in" into the discussion with GAC therapists? I think I missed the nuance, and I'd like a clarification.
😂 I heard breaking bones instead of bak8ng buns and I'm laughing so hard picturing you wild Irish ladies put breaking bones! 😂😂😂
I can't help thinking Western Society's economic prospects have peaked, and the nation state and the sense of place has begun to wain.
This era of doubt is casting about for an appropriate way forward.
Kids play video games with people on the other side of the world. What they do in their spare time is not as constrained to just their peers as they did in the past.
This lack of certainty and disingagement with the immediate physical world, and the intense engagement with the online world, makes the physical world a nuisance and frustrating because it is so limited and limiting.
What is the out book and where can it be found?
The book is "When Kids Say They're Trans." It's currently out in the UK and will be released in the US this month. Go to whenkidssaytheyretrans.com to see all the places you can order or pre-order. Thanks!
At 13:40 Sasha Ayad asserts that there is no community among gay people, that gay people have no connection with one another, no "deep knowing" (whatever that means) and that they don't help one another in times of need. She is unaware of 200+ community centers, thousands of support groups for various issues, scores of helplines and hotlines, senior support, community health clinics, recovery centers, housing, scholarships, meetups, and social events. As I have said before, if we exclude religious podcasts, this is one of the most homophobic podcasts out there.
I can't speak for her, but the definition of the community they were referring to is all in person, usually intergenerational, stable (meet daily/weekly/ongoing) through the lifetime, where they would know your situation, bring over food when you're sick, show up to your nannas funeral, know your parents and siblings. THAT type of community only exists with outsourced expert-lead groups. I LOVE online groups but they also don't exist in that definition of community. I do believe those settings can lead to people FORMING community but that would exist outside the specially designated meet up/support group times, and it would rarely be all the members engaging more deeply in each others lives.
@@ElizabethDohertyThomas The fact that you have to completely re-formulate her statement, adding a full paragraph of text which she never said, only proves that you can't defend what she actually said. As for your belief that gay people don't have stable connections which are not online, that they don't deliver food to sick friends or go to funerals, all I can say is that you are a perfect fit for this podcast.
Do you offer community to parents that need it when non affirmative?
Maybe LGB have different support needs than T, but T is the only issue in discussion here
I read your comment before starting the video and thought I'd listen out for the "homophobia".
There is none.
Just like there hasn't been any from Sasha or Stella in any of the 136 episodes I've listened to.
Firstly she didn't say gay community she said LGBTQ+ community. You accidentally made the most -phobic comment either in the video or in the comment section. Congrats.
Secondly they're referencing the internet version of community contrasted with the physical personal community of ppl who are actually there for you quite literally.
Thirdly 200+ where exactly? You might live in a very closed world but this is an international podcast with two presenters from different continents.
You clearly and obviously came to disingenuously tarnish the reputation of the channel and were scraping about desperately trying to find something, anything, to allow you to discredit them.
You failed.
But you rather successfully outed your own prejudice.
If you think this is one of the most homophobic podcasts outside of religious ones then I would point out that:
a) You live in the most charming safe space on Earth and if you left you'd shatter into pieces
b) Do not under any circumstances look up any podcasts connected to trans ideology because they commonly to denigrate lesbians, the reality of sex, the basis of homosexuality etc.
@@ElizabethDohertyThomas Did you buy the strawman this guy constructed for you?
I don't think much of the craftsmanship. Very little effort seems to have gone into it and the misrepresentation leaves a lot to be desired.