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paid to win, as long as it's 3 coin flips for singles and 4 coin flips for doubles and your not wealthy, it's never competitive, limited format is non competitive if it not 6v6 it's gambling and your a shill for paid to win, you didn't mention extending the number of pokemon in the game per battle, just the moves and effects, your a bot and your never gonna prove to me otherwise.
Competitive pokemon is indeed random cuz a crit can make u win or lose a game and some pokemon depends on low accuracy moves suggest a 100percent accurate special flying move then people will stop using hurricanes
There’s another factor to damage calculation that very often goes overlooked. Percentages that you see on Showdown simply show the chance to KO, sometimes exacerbated by a passive damage or recovery effect, but they practically never factor in accuracy or critical hits. The problem is that if you don’t factor in the latter two, you won’t get the most precise probability to KO, and if a move is less than 100% accurate, the chance to KO on a given turn caps under 100%.
Crits are a staple of the RPG genre, but those are single player games designed to make doing the same thing over and over more interesting. In my opinion, it's implementation in PvP organised competition with real prize money on the line is not ideal and should probably be reworked or scrapped. By far the most egregious thing about them is that they ignore basically everything except burns.
Only moves that have a higher chance to crit like Night Slash should be able to crit. This would make crits more predictable and maybe people would run those moves more often as well, because atm most players prefer stronger options over a higher crit chance
This video showed up just after playing three or four games in showdown. EIGHT gunk shot misses, 3 play rough, 2 thunder wave and SIX full para in a row(not really in a row, just counting things that could have missed). Yes, the game is too damn random
@senorspock6939 to be fair, these are all moves you select and accept that they won't connect. If you have that many moves that will miss there's always a chance that you'll have the best or the worst game of all time to put it mildly lol
@@Kier_1the problem is these moves with slight risk are NEEDED for some pokemon to keep up. Some pokemon have no options besides gunk shot for physical poison damage besides gunk shot. Meanwhile, almost every new dlc and sv mon is handed out 100% accuracy, 120 bp signatures with almost no drawback like candy.
The RNG is not the inherent issue. It is the lack of skill elements around being able to play with said RNG like crits and misses. An example would be how Diddy Kong in Smash keeps tripping a skill issue to land bananas instead of it being purely random like in Brawl. When you randomly get flinched out and lose because of it, there is no skill to that. I bring up Yo-Kai Watch as an example of a well designed monster collector and way better competitive game because there are monsters that boost crit rate and evasion consistently or negate crits and evasion consistently so you can play with those elements. You stillget plenty of risk-reward due to how the blanket effects for those things work in YKW. Smogon keeps evasion play banned because dealing with it consistently is unreliable and Sniper and Shell Armor suck competitively so playing around crits is also unreliable.
I know you bring up Yo-Kai Watch here as an example but the thing is the two examples you gave areeeee technically in the game for Pokemon. At least the crit element, there are abilities in the game that block critical hits completely. And obviously there are some moves that boost the chance of crits. But unfortunately they don't work as well in Pokemon due to the sheer power of having more powerful abilities, as well as the fact that setting up crits is inherently worse than setting up a +1 or +2 boost to an attacking stat
The issue isn't with the inherent randomness itself. You could lose to a hypnosis Gengar if the stars align. But you don't even see it. Why? Because the expected value is very bad. Pokemon has always had tools to bring the game to an RNG fest if one desires. Thunder Wave Swagger Thundurus. Fissure Ting Lu. It only becomes an issue when the RNG-heavy Pokemon actually has a big positive expected value. Sneasler always had its rng but it was a non-entity in Regulation G. When it actually became good to use, it became a problem.
Damege rolls,cool fine. But you saying that people should use damege calcualators , When 1 there not offical and 2 they have time limits on the move choices. So you cant spend a ton of time just seeing all the calcs.
That's why I think it's important to study the damage formula. It's used to determine damage of all moves used by a mon outside of night shade and seismic toss type of moves. It becomes plug and pull in terms of your situation with the numbers (Move BP, A/D ratio, STAB multiplier,etc.)
Ok there’s luck and consistency and I think you guys are getting it confused. Luck is like triple arrows or dire claw. Those moves are broken and each have crazy chances to proc multiple effects. consistency is banking on not missing a single overheat. In my eyes they’re different
I think the damage rolls are too random. Yes, you can pull out a calculator and know ahead of time that your attack may or may not kill. That doesnt change the fact that you can use a 100% accurate move, and if you replay that turn sometimes you win the game and sometimes you don't, even when it is categorically the best move. Crits obviously suck competitively. These are things that you literally have no control over, you cannot decide to use or not, and which are omnipresent during the game. But i agree with most of the rest of it, innaccurate moves/multihit moves are fine, sleep/frozen/paralysis/flinch are frustratingly random.
from my perspective, I don't mind randomness that much, like you said it can be played around most of the time. Some things can be changed though. I like the idea of freeze being changed to frostbite since freeze is inherently uncompetitive. I definitely think dire claw needs a significant nerf or rework. I don't mind crits but if they were changed then I think they can be a very low percentage (like 1%) and the percentage of a crit happening increases the more a pokemon gets hit (like 2%, 3%, etc). This could make crits less random while still punishing overly defensive strategies. other forms of randomness are either an inherent part of the game like damage roles or are like paralysis or confusion which statistically will still let the pokemon move most of the time. speed ties are more of a consequence of some super fast pokemon being overly centralising like calyrex or flutter mane and that's a metagame issue not a game issue.
idk you can double hit double crit Bleakwind Storm and get the double speed drop. That can immediately win you. And that's just one of many of those moves, plus you can reduce the rng it takes for some of them, like with rain.
Ik its still rng but what if confusion made it so there's a 1/4 chance the pokemon uses the wrong move? Maybe theres also a chance they hit the wrong target, you know its a bad day when you use the wrong move on the wrong target
i think critical hits should only exist on neutral damage moves. you're technically critting already if you target a pokemon by its weakness and i don't think it makes much sense to accidentally reward hitting a target on its resistances.
Not there’s a meta game when you go to tournaments of any kind there’s a meta which involves a certain set of options sure some people will have a different opinion then others but for the majority there’s gonna be mirror teams in the high ladder if your unable to get to mid ladder to see this there’s nothing you can do it’s like chess you can only climb so high
ill take critical hits over misses any day bro. even when i win my victory feels like it was handed to me when my opponent misses 3 rock slides in a row.
i think sleep needs to be random to some extent, otherwise spore users could just protect on the wake up turns and then immediately put the enemy back to sleep
Yes it has too much inherent rng. And before people say "well wolfe and Riley and joeux9 always top cut. Skills matter more then rng" I am NOT denying the skill involved. My issue is not with the players at the upper echelons. I am thinking of the new players specifically. I genuinely believe the competitive scene will always be held back from becoming truly massive due to a few issues. One of those issues, imo, is how much randomness happens and how punishing it is to new players who don't know how to play with or around it.
@@RobertoMarquezJr Thats an extremely reductive reply. No one said "no rng". I just said their are some elements of the game that are too rng dependant. Specifically they have elements of rng that are unintuitive for new players and can drive them away from the game. Sneasler is a prime example with dire claw. but not the only one. Some rng like damage rolls and even crits are fine enough, but some things like triple arrows have too much shit and would benefit if they reduced the amount of effects, but made the effects guaranteed.
Pokemon would be so much more boring to watch if all of the randomness was taken out. No suspense, no lucky turns that flips the tide of the battle. If turn one goes wrong for one player then the rest of the battle is basically over. Keep randomness in the game
Yes it is. 90% of my lost games on Smogon are due to haxx. Literally. I am exaggerating? Say that to the minus 4 special attack latios that wins the game by getting a critical hit on my Quiver Dance user that would have swept the entire opponent's team.
Click this link www.boot.dev/?promo=SKRAW and use my code SKRAW to get 25% off your first payment for boot.dev. That’s 25% off your first month or your first year, depending on the subscription you choose.
paid to win, as long as it's 3 coin flips for singles and 4 coin flips for doubles and your not wealthy, it's never competitive, limited format is non competitive if it not 6v6 it's gambling and your a shill for paid to win, you didn't mention extending the number of pokemon in the game per battle, just the moves and effects, your a bot and your never gonna prove to me otherwise.
VGC players finding out very quickly why Smogon banned sneasler and the absolute hellspawn of a move that is dire claw.
Is competitive Pokémon too random? I never told you to run overheat. You could’ve ran flamethrower instead
Competitive pokemon is indeed random cuz a crit can make u win or lose a game and some pokemon depends on low accuracy moves suggest a 100percent accurate special flying move then people will stop using hurricanes
@@Zhicy72 here me out meowscarada has 100% accurate moves outspeeds every rock slide user and always crits its literally the anti luck mon
@@FlygonkingVGC but some choice pokemon can out speed and ohko like urshifu with close combat
@@FlygonkingVGC there is like 200+ fully evolved and some evoilite pokemon allowed in gen 9 vgc a weak anti luck mon doesn't change it
@@FlygonkingVGCnot every good mon gets 100percent stab move that uses its superior attack stat
There’s another factor to damage calculation that very often goes overlooked. Percentages that you see on Showdown simply show the chance to KO, sometimes exacerbated by a passive damage or recovery effect, but they practically never factor in accuracy or critical hits.
The problem is that if you don’t factor in the latter two, you won’t get the most precise probability to KO, and if a move is less than 100% accurate, the chance to KO on a given turn caps under 100%.
facts
Crits are a staple of the RPG genre, but those are single player games designed to make doing the same thing over and over more interesting. In my opinion, it's implementation in PvP organised competition with real prize money on the line is not ideal and should probably be reworked or scrapped. By far the most egregious thing about them is that they ignore basically everything except burns.
I like the idea of making Critical hits only ignore attack drops and defence buffs, without the 1.5x attack boost.
Only moves that have a higher chance to crit like Night Slash should be able to crit. This would make crits more predictable and maybe people would run those moves more often as well, because atm most players prefer stronger options over a higher crit chance
This video showed up just after playing three or four games in showdown. EIGHT gunk shot misses, 3 play rough, 2 thunder wave and SIX full para in a row(not really in a row, just counting things that could have missed). Yes, the game is too damn random
@senorspock6939 to be fair, these are all moves you select and accept that they won't connect. If you have that many moves that will miss there's always a chance that you'll have the best or the worst game of all time to put it mildly lol
High risk high reward moves :shrug:
@@Kier_1the problem is these moves with slight risk are NEEDED for some pokemon to keep up. Some pokemon have no options besides gunk shot for physical poison damage besides gunk shot. Meanwhile, almost every new dlc and sv mon is handed out 100% accuracy, 120 bp signatures with almost no drawback like candy.
The RNG is not the inherent issue. It is the lack of skill elements around being able to play with said RNG like crits and misses.
An example would be how Diddy Kong in Smash keeps tripping a skill issue to land bananas instead of it being purely random like in Brawl.
When you randomly get flinched out and lose because of it, there is no skill to that.
I bring up Yo-Kai Watch as an example of a well designed monster collector and way better competitive game because there are monsters that boost crit rate and evasion consistently or negate crits and evasion consistently so you can play with those elements. You stillget plenty of risk-reward due to how the blanket effects for those things work in YKW.
Smogon keeps evasion play banned because dealing with it consistently is unreliable and Sniper and Shell Armor suck competitively so playing around crits is also unreliable.
Of course, then you run into the issue of Nuzlockers who think they’re good for the game, and they typically find strats to account for them existing.
I know you bring up Yo-Kai Watch here as an example but the thing is the two examples you gave areeeee technically in the game for Pokemon. At least the crit element, there are abilities in the game that block critical hits completely. And obviously there are some moves that boost the chance of crits. But unfortunately they don't work as well in Pokemon due to the sheer power of having more powerful abilities, as well as the fact that setting up crits is inherently worse than setting up a +1 or +2 boost to an attacking stat
Me watching this after Lille regionals after getting slept 7 times with sneasler
The issue isn't with the inherent randomness itself. You could lose to a hypnosis Gengar if the stars align. But you don't even see it. Why? Because the expected value is very bad. Pokemon has always had tools to bring the game to an RNG fest if one desires. Thunder Wave Swagger Thundurus. Fissure Ting Lu. It only becomes an issue when the RNG-heavy Pokemon actually has a big positive expected value. Sneasler always had its rng but it was a non-entity in Regulation G. When it actually became good to use, it became a problem.
Good, future Jacob put Sneasler in the thumbnail.
Damege rolls,cool fine. But you saying that people should use damege calcualators , When 1 there not offical and 2 they have time limits on the move choices. So you cant spend a ton of time just seeing all the calcs.
That's why I think it's important to study the damage formula. It's used to determine damage of all moves used by a mon outside of night shade and seismic toss type of moves. It becomes plug and pull in terms of your situation with the numbers (Move BP, A/D ratio, STAB multiplier,etc.)
The first minute sums up how Play More is feeling this week!
"no"
*remembers that one game I had*
"yes"
We need to erase sneasler from existence
*Dire Claw. Sneasler w/o Dire Claw is probably fine. Dire Claw turns an already strong mon into a hypersonic gambling machine
Ok there’s luck and consistency and I think you guys are getting it confused. Luck is like triple arrows or dire claw. Those moves are broken and each have crazy chances to proc multiple effects. consistency is banking on not missing a single overheat. In my eyes they’re different
Draco Meteor miss is my favorite meme
I think the damage rolls are too random. Yes, you can pull out a calculator and know ahead of time that your attack may or may not kill. That doesnt change the fact that you can use a 100% accurate move, and if you replay that turn sometimes you win the game and sometimes you don't, even when it is categorically the best move. Crits obviously suck competitively. These are things that you literally have no control over, you cannot decide to use or not, and which are omnipresent during the game. But i agree with most of the rest of it, innaccurate moves/multihit moves are fine, sleep/frozen/paralysis/flinch are frustratingly random.
from my perspective, I don't mind randomness that much, like you said it can be played around most of the time. Some things can be changed though. I like the idea of freeze being changed to frostbite since freeze is inherently uncompetitive. I definitely think dire claw needs a significant nerf or rework. I don't mind crits but if they were changed then I think they can be a very low percentage (like 1%) and the percentage of a crit happening increases the more a pokemon gets hit (like 2%, 3%, etc). This could make crits less random while still punishing overly defensive strategies. other forms of randomness are either an inherent part of the game like damage roles or are like paralysis or confusion which statistically will still let the pokemon move most of the time. speed ties are more of a consequence of some super fast pokemon being overly centralising like calyrex or flutter mane and that's a metagame issue not a game issue.
Having the conclustion have the Monster Hunter World main theme behind it was honestly the best part for me.
I would like a 0 rng mode
idk you can double hit double crit Bleakwind Storm and get the double speed drop. That can immediately win you. And that's just one of many of those moves, plus you can reduce the rng it takes for some of them, like with rain.
The Swiss-Format helps too. Single Knockout-Tourneys would be horrible.
Ik its still rng but what if confusion made it so there's a 1/4 chance the pokemon uses the wrong move? Maybe theres also a chance they hit the wrong target, you know its a bad day when you use the wrong move on the wrong target
i think critical hits should only exist on neutral damage moves. you're technically critting already if you target a pokemon by its weakness and i don't think it makes much sense to accidentally reward hitting a target on its resistances.
Not there’s a meta game when you go to tournaments of any kind there’s a meta which involves a certain set of options sure some people will have a different opinion then others but for the majority there’s gonna be mirror teams in the high ladder if your unable to get to mid ladder to see this there’s nothing you can do it’s like chess you can only climb so high
ill take critical hits over misses any day bro. even when i win my victory feels like it was handed to me when my opponent misses 3 rock slides in a row.
We should make 95% accuracy moves 100% accuracy, i missed more high horse powers than draco meteors
i think sleep needs to be random to some extent, otherwise spore users could just protect on the wake up turns and then immediately put the enemy back to sleep
If dire claw couldn't put you to sleep it would be a much better move
Yes it has too much inherent rng.
And before people say "well wolfe and Riley and joeux9 always top cut. Skills matter more then rng" I am NOT denying the skill involved.
My issue is not with the players at the upper echelons. I am thinking of the new players specifically. I genuinely believe the competitive scene will always be held back from becoming truly massive due to a few issues. One of those issues, imo, is how much randomness happens and how punishing it is to new players who don't know how to play with or around it.
No RNG invalidates tons of moves and Pokémon. It sounds incredibly boring.
@@RobertoMarquezJr Thats an extremely reductive reply.
No one said "no rng". I just said their are some elements of the game that are too rng dependant.
Specifically they have elements of rng that are unintuitive for new players and can drive them away from the game. Sneasler is a prime example with dire claw. but not the only one.
Some rng like damage rolls and even crits are fine enough, but some things like triple arrows have too much shit and would benefit if they reduced the amount of effects, but made the effects guaranteed.
If a given format feels too random, literally just play best-of-5 sets
You forgot flinching. I cant stand being flinched by Chein Pao or Excadrill. Or remember Kings Rock Cloyster in singles? Such a dumb mechanic
Surely it's the least random it's ever been!?
Pokemon never felt like a compatitive multiplayer game to me. It's a single player rpg, that's what i came for in the first place.
Pokemon would be so much more boring to watch if all of the randomness was taken out. No suspense, no lucky turns that flips the tide of the battle. If turn one goes wrong for one player then the rest of the battle is basically over. Keep randomness in the game
I agree. Alot of times when people complain, I'm happy that no changes are made
I think crits would be great if they were less random/not random
Yes it is. 90% of my lost games on Smogon are due to haxx. Literally. I am exaggerating? Say that to the minus 4 special attack latios that wins the game by getting a critical hit on my Quiver Dance user that would have swept the entire opponent's team.
Vgc fans: the game is so random 😭
Tcg fans: first time?
My reg H , huge power Azumarill missed 4 play rough in 1 game
the answer is no, poker is played competetively
Поздрав из Србије.
јако волим Покемоне
yes ( i only play random battles on showdown)
Pokemon VGC is also full of cheaters.
i like femboys
@@petep3069 Base
13:10 this pronunciation hurts me
I love sneasler and its antics.
31 yoooooooooooooooooooooooo
Me with my scarf Tyranitar Rock slide + Garchomp sand veil + Sneasler dire claw team
No pokemon was always made for children and nothing else i am from the future