LATAM Flt 800 UPDATE! Seat Issue?! 14 March 2024
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- Опубликовано: 13 мар 2024
- Was the pilot shoved forward into the yoke by an inadvertent actuation of his seat?
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Twice in my career as a mechanic I've seen the pilots seat move inadvertently. First was on a test flight out of "C" check. The seats on that particular aircraft are manual with locking pins that keep it from moving once adjusted. Unfortunately, one of the locking pins was bent just enough where they didn't lock all the way and on rotation the captains seat went straight back, he yelp and the FO immediately took control. We came back in, landed and swapped out the captains seat. The second time was a story relayed to me by a captain after a flight. This aircraft has electric seats similar to the 777. The Capt. dropped something, a pen I think it was, unbuckled and managed to get the buckle turned sideways and into the switch somehow. It drove it all the way forward and he was stuck turned sideways in his seat with his left leg jammed up where he couldn't move. He said after about 30 seconds of panic and confusion, he managed to get the buckle out and the seat moved back. No matter how well the design is, someone will find a way to defeat it.
I'm thinking it happened like that. Not a 3rd party in the cockpit
Sometimes it is best to have someone totally ignorant of the process to uncover the obvious.
There was the Airbus event with a camera trapped between the seat and the side-stick.
Murphy’s law huh? 😆
@@Woffy.Also there was the helicopter accident caused by a dropped iPad that got jam in a rudder pedal also told in this channel. All this Human errors recorded are a good lesson to know to avoid a repeat.
Isn't that the essence of Murphy's law?
Hey Juan, I spent the last 6 years before retirement on the 787. The switch on the back of the seat is used primarily to move the seat forward and aft to give you room to put your kitbag in place or get it out after the flight. there is not enough room to actually get into the seat from the outside along the window. As you can see when the seat slides back it also moves to the left (Captain's seat) or right (Fo's seat) giving you room between the center console to get into and out of the seat. The seats, when operated with the motor, move very slowly. The seats also have manual adjustments that can be used in leu of the motor and using the manual adjustment lever is really the only way you can get these seats to move quickly - however, it takes a little effort when seated and you have to be holding the lever in the unlock position while moving the seat. If you let go of the manual lever the seat will lock in the next notch of the seat track. Finally, the way the seat is made with the yoke cut-out in the front of the bottom seat cushion, there isn't anyway for the seat to contact the yoke and move it. With all that said, I don't see how you could trap a meal tray between you and the yoke because the seat simply doesn't move that fast electrically. When I first heard about this, my first thought was that a crew member possibly slipped and fell onto the yoke, when getting in or out of the seat causing the nose over - which I still think is what most likely happened. As to all the instruments going blank, I had that happen on a 777 on the way to China one night. All the MFD's and the Autoflight indications went blank, however, while you couldn't see that the autopilot was engaged, it remained so and the attitude of the plane never waivered. In that scenario, we never got the screens to come back and we flew a couple of hours back to our departure point on the standby instruments. It's just hard to imaging under what conditions the loss of the MFD's would cause the nose over. Anyway, this one will be interesting to see what they finally discover. Great video!
Love these type of comments providing insight
With a CDN failure would the autopilot follow the bad data?
@@andrewferguson3535it may, but a CDN failure won't blank the screens.
Thank you. I fly the Triple. The seat doesn't move fast enough. I'm a big guy, 300lbs. Even with the seat full forward I don't touch the yolk. A meal tray would break before it disengaged the AP.
I believe it was either CAT, possibly (doubtful) wake from an aircraft on a perpendicular flight path, or most likely someone slipped getting out of the seat.
@@nikh9080 I’ve had CAT years ago and it could certainly be but why would the Captain announce he’d lost his displays instead of CAT?
"Have you tried turning it off and on again" is not what I expect to hear during pre-flight.
Indeed even retail outlets today say " have you tried throwing it away and buying a new one ? ".
i was on a tarmac for 4 hours we boarded and then the pilots tried power off and on a few times then a full power off for 5 minutes then a restart.
they couldn’t get a maintenance message to go away
they got clearance to fly home (Mulan to JFK) and we did
but good grief!!!!
I have had to do that a few times over my career. Most of the time it reset the systems just fine, others it took something like pulling and then putting a component back into place in an equipment rack under the flight deck.
Ctrl, Alt Dlt?
I flew once with a 787 (more than 10 years ago) and they also had to reboot the whole plane at the gate before departure. I found it kind of scary as I had never experienced this before.
One of the main rules when flying, is to always leave your seatbelt on!
Even if the seat belt is not tight. If it's buckled and adjusted close to tight, it should stop you flying out of your seat.
When I was a kid and plans weren't always full especially going over the pond. We would just go to the back lay down across five seats with pillows strategically placed on the hard spots and then seat belts around our feet midsection and up near our shoulders. Just loosely so we didn't
kiss the ceiling.
Yes, of course, exactly. But it doesn´t help you when your neighbor isn´t strapped into his seatbelt, gets lifted to the ceiling and is plunging than on top of you when falling down.
learned that way back in the early 80's when on a flight to the UK the plane dropped like a stone drinks and many things flew up and hit the ceiling was not bad enough to launch people but close to it we had been warned we might hit some turbulence and the seatbelt light was on so i think almost everyone was strapped in but my rye and ginger bounced of the ceiling big time after that i always stayed strapped unless i was up stretching or going to the head
FAR 91.107 is the regulation that governs seatbelt usage for crew and passengers.
I am a crew on the B787. It’s NOT the “back of the seat” mounted switch. Inflight, I have had the side mounted fore and aft seat adjustment rocker switch continue to move the seat forward even after I have lifted my thumb off it. The entire rocker switch assembly felt very loose. I wrote up the defect after the flight. If I had been a fat guy with a huge beer belly - the outcome might have been like this!
I'm shocked by this, Boeing couldn't even make proper powered seat, cars were doing this since 80s, a lot of examples and system to choose from, yet they made one that was this flimsy.
@@worawatli8952 It was the switch mechanism that was loose. A commercial aircraft seat may be moved electrically up to a dozen times or more each hour as the pilots adjust to see various things better, do paperwork, get in and out of the seat etc. Also the planes are in continuous use round the clock. Just add up those instances and the switch may be depressed hundreds of times per flight day or night. It’s not so shocking that the switches may become loose or defective. Also, the switch is not made by Boeing but by the seat supplier.
@@veeman1961 Maybe they should redesigned it, or having shorter replacement interval, I hope they learnt from this.
@@veeman1961be interesting to know if the loose cover was written in the cabin defects log or the tech log and was waiting for replacement. I know the cabin defects never had any importance on them to be fixed.
@@simpedros4766Pilots don’t write up defects in the cabin log, only in the tech log. The cabin log is for use by the cabin crew.
I noticed a wee bit of sarcasm when mentioning the meal! lol
oui oui
The first/business class meals are probably what the crews are served.
@@justsmy5677If they are decent people as pilots, that’s usually the case. If they are arrogant a-holes…they get the stock standard meal provided 🤣
The chap was eating lettuce as opposed to the burger (?), so yes, cause for sardonicism.
It sounded like he was saying, Try not to get gravy all over your uniform,,, "again".
I've been in turbulence one time. I was a civilian radar flight test engineer on a P-3 flight out of Pax River NAS. My job required me to sit behind the pilot to manage the radar computer. No seat; I just sat in the floor with a laptop connected to the radar for instrumentation. We would go out and fly back and forth along the exact same path for hours at a time to test the SAR mode of the radar. The radar was a single-mode-at-a-time system. It had a weather mode that worked well, but we were focused on our SAR tests. On one of our runs, we flew through a cloud that had drifted into our flight path. One second I was on the ceiling, the next, I was on the floor. No joke. We were all very lucky that nobody was hurt. Turbulence is a thing and that flight made a believer out of me. We'd have a look at the weather mode now and then after that incident.
Once during a base visit, I was asking an east coast VP squadron pilot what the worst conditions he saw were. He said they were in volcanic convection and the P-3 would be ascending 4,000fpm at idle nose down 20 degrees, the next moment sinking 2,000fpm with full power and nose up. Yeesh.
Glad you didn't get busted up on your unbriefed joy ride.
I know all about powering a Boeing down. The SAS 737 in Bodo, Norway, (2016) was settled, the airbridge retracted & the engines started. After about what seemed 10 minutes of idling the Captain came on the blower & informed us that a light on his dashboard wouldn't go out. So he switched the engines off & he told us he was ringing maintenance in Oslo but it could be 90 minutes before anyone could fly up to us. Meanwhile I had a connecting flight to Copenhagen & on to Zurich. Finally the Captain informed us that he'd been advised to turn the plane off, wait 3 minutes & turn it on again, what in the computer mainframe game is called an IPL (Initial program Load). He did that as we sat in total darkness & stillness watching other aircraft depart (quite a new experience for me) & then as everything came back on & the engines were restarted that light on the instrument panel went out & we bolted for Oslo. Luckily airline crew in Oslo knew we were coming & rebooked us on other flights which was excellent.
OK here is my story and its true. I was flying as FO on a PanAm 747 leaving Narita (Tokoyo) . I was flying with Capt Johnny ______ a short, fat guy who never
stopped talking. It was his leg and we started the takeoff from the reverse high speed and after I called out the 80kt and V1 the Capts seat became unlocked
from the track and Jonny slid back and outboard and his arms were too short to teach the yoke. I took control of the A/C and I continued the take off and retracted the gear and the flaps while Johnny was flapping his arms and trying to talk. At this point the engineer used his foot to push Johnny`s seat forward and reengaged it to the seat track. Johnny asked " why didn`t you help me?'" I said I was busy flying the airplane. Good times
Tokoyo?
Funny and scary at the same time.
I love flying into Narita.
Tokyo is awesome.
Juan...I have been a flight attendant for a very long time and have NEVER NEVER seen a steak like the one shown in that picture that you show on this video. I know who you work for (same company as me)and I know they do not serve steaks of that size. Where did you get that picture? LOl
Someone photoshopped it?
Could be a fish steak also, I suppose...
He never said it was his airline tbf, seems to just be some Pinterest post he used. Probably some airline that still has fancy service.
Wonder if they served steaks like that on the DC 3 ?
Well ...I flew for Qatar Airways and we had Full Service most of the time with steaks like this, cutlery and dishware was fabulous ...
But in some Cargo Bases the managers were saving money on Pilots Catering !
Luxembourg catering was horrendous ; I told the Dispatch Lady to please give my lunch /dinner to the Manager for Him to Eat it !
I'm a 777 Commander and I Don't eat this stuff ! ( had to be polite , no ? )
😉😂😎
Similar incident although with a side-stick. Royal Air Force Voyager ZZ333 9 February 2014 the aircraft suddenly pitched down while in the cruise at Flight Level 330. A digital SLR camera obstruction which was in front of the Captain’s left arm rest and behind the base of the Captain’s side-stick at the time of the event having been jammed between the arm rest and the side-stick unit when the seat moved forward.
First thing I thought of! A weird one for sure!
And it was the flight envelope protection that eventually kicked in and saved the day, IIRC
@@georgHyepp, the G-limit, and -15 nose down pitch protection prevented the airplane from going into a dive that would have overstressed the airframe.
Pilot was dismissed from the Airforce.
This makes a LOT more sense than 'all my screens went blank.' IMHO.
well the tray covered them , so they WENT BLAAANK 😂
" Someone jammed the radar . . . . "
It doesn't though, you saw how slow that seat moves.
It was that pilot’s career that went blank
Screen was covered in gravy?
I don’t find the seat issues plausible for those reasons:
1- There’s a flap on the actuator so you really have to dig for it to actuate the seat by mistakes.
2- Even if you actuate it, the seat movement is fairly slow so you’ll notice the movement before hitting the controls. It’s not like your going full speed into the control column.
3- Unless you’re a big belly guy, even with the seat full fwd, I think you can still sit in that seat and not pushing on the controls.
And as for the autopilot disconnecting, unless you’re really pushing on the controls or you fall with all your weight on the yoke, if the autopilot disconnect, it won’t slam dive the aircraft since it’s already trimmed by the autopilot.
I'm assuming you have to hold the button down to keep moving the seat forward, which as you say, would be noticed.
There are two seat actuators. One behind the seat for easy access from behind, and another beside the pilot’s thigh for pilots to adjust their seats while seated. The one by their thighs has no flap. But yes, once actuated it moves quite slow. Possibly they noticed but unable to un-jam whatever is sticking into the switch? I guess we will know more soon.
agreed, and you don't just push it and goes you have to hold it down all the way through the procedure from what the video shows no way this was the cause
@@ahmadfarizbinmokhtar7106 Did you see the video? That's not that slow. Less than 10 seconds for the entire travel, and and if it is possible to move the seat such that you hit the controls, you definitely don't need the entire distance of travel to do it.
Agree. Moreover, if you are drawn backwards and you should hold onto the yoke, you would rather pull it back than push it away. This resulting, of course in a sudden climb.
I can't see how the switch could have been activated accidentally, it has a cover over it.
Maybe the flight attendant serving the meal pressed it in the wrong direction accidently.
Or maybe the cover had previously broken off?
That's what I said...it has a cover over it.
Correct the reason for the cover is so there's NO inadvertent operation of the rocker switch but I thought there was a software update to make that switch inoperable in flight maybe a customer configuration or was never incorporated. Anyhow you can't just accidentally hit the switch as the cover is spring loaded.
Cover doesn't close automatically - could have been left open
Reminds me of RAF voyager 333 where the pilot put his camera in front of his armrest and when he moved his seat forward it pushed the sidestick down
The pilot kept quiet about this during the whole investigation and only admitted it long after he could have saved his career
Fascinating investigation, what a relief that the pilot didn't switch the plane into direct law, the envelope protection gave them a chance to dislodge the camera 😬
I also immediately thought about the same
Indeed, exactly - me, too.
People pay good money to experience weightlessness, passengers should be charged extra.
if it's as violent as they said it was, it might have not been even weightlessness but more of a 'reverse gravity' situation!
If they were given warning and padding, sure.
The fees and surcharges will continue until morale improves.
I just read your comment & think "WEEEE...!!! LOOK MUM...!!! I'M UP HERE FLOATING ON THE CEILING WITH ALL THE FOOD TRAYS & PASSPORTS...!!!" 🤣😳🤸🧑🚀😉
Probably not a lot of complaints about the floating, only the "landing".
Dang, tragic example of the little unforeseen things that can kill you. When I was about 12' my father and his business partner bought a Cessna U-3A (Military version of the 310A) that had just came out of annual. His partner 'Jerry' was a low time single engine pilot who had a who had just soloed in the 310 and on a business flight. Jerry climbed into the left seat, I got in the right rear seat and my father, a high-time military pilot in the right, leaving his seat slid almost fully back so he could study a newspaper classified section on taxi.
As Jerry lined-up for take off my father double checked the takeoff items and said "let's go" Jerry shoved the throttles full-forward and after rotation and about 300ft in the air decided his seat was too far back, and pulled the seat latch and lunged it forward a inch or two and released the handle that failed to engage and as he rested back in the seat, I heard a "Clack! clack! clack!" as Jerry and the seat rocketed aft as he tightly griped the yoke with his left hand, pulling the 310 vertical and into a steep left roll until he ran out of aft yoke and the seat slid completely off the rails, and into the rear seat beside me yelling "TAKE HER! TAKE HER!", at which point my father lunged forward, grabbed the yoke, rolled and 'bunted' back over to level with the 310 on the edge of a stall. With Jerry and the pilot's seat, now at about a 60degree angle in the back seat next to me, he struggled to get out of the seat flailing his feet and arms, eventually rolling out of the seat, and from the back seat got the pilot's seat back on the rails.
My father continued flying from the right shaking his head, and as Jerry started to climb back into the pilot's seat and saying "All good! I'll take her!". My father barked: "What where you thinking! You stay back there!" As he shifted left into the pilot's seat.
As I recall the rear seat stop, a little $0.50 aluminum clip with a pin and cotter key was never in-place or not re-installed after annual. Many years later after several loss of control incidents and likely a fatal crash or few An AD was required for a secondary latch to prevent the front seats on some singles to prevent front seats from coming off the rails, but I'm not sure what if anything was mandated for the old 310's Perhaps Juan can tell us.
famous last words....just campout of annual
Yep. My engine seized flying plane home from annual. Two oil lines came off. N121YT
What a horror story. But this things happen.
@@Bill3558 Both oil Lines came off? Being an aircraft dealer and running a lot of airplanes through shops had some crazy stuff. like a fuel return line to a fuel injection spider on a Cessna T210 having been left finger tight and when I reduced power at 10,000 ft. was hit with overwhelming fuel fumes in the cockpit. I found if I kept max climb power on, the fumes subsided and guessed it was a loose fuel return line. I headed for the nearest airport in a max power decent at red line airspeed and when about 5000ft over the airport pulled the mixture and did a dead stick with the prop windmilling in case I needed power.
Another time (same mechanic) on the same airplane left the oil drain from the turbocharger loose and when I landed after a test flight oil was pouring out of the return line fitting. That mechanic was highly experienced but a one-man shop and had a lot of distractions and a history of leaving stuff loose.
Another time after an AD to replace turbocharger oil lines on a Mooney Turbo Chaparral and flying from Oregon to Jack Roddy's Ranch near Antioch in central California. Jack said said buzz the ranch and we'll pick you up. So I made two high speed passes with a final steep pull-up after people came out and waved, and as I leveled off we suddenly got a lot of hot oil smoke in the cabin and I headed straight over the hill and made a bee-line for the old Antioch airport, and on short final I noticed the oil pressure fluctuating and shut down the engine. We rolled off the runway and when we got out we found the belly of the Mooney soaked with oil.
When Jack, his wife arrived at the airport, his wife said "That was great pass, you must have been going like 200, and when you turned the smoke on against the Sun Jack said 'Beautiful!"'
When we removed the cowling we found one of the just replaced oil lines improperly routed tightly between the engine mount and around the exhaust ahead of the turbo. A few hours of heat and my high-speed pull-up was enough to cause the Turbo oil supply line to fail and dump oil on the turbo and exhaust.
My practice is to inspect all work done by any mechanic, go through the logs and double check everything they messed with is tight. In the Mooney Case the shop was one of the most respected Mooney expert shops in the area and as the Cowling was a time-consuming and difficult to remove, I skipped it as I had just done a 30min test flight and was leaving the next morning and figured it was pretty hard to screw up an oil line replacement.
"When I was about 12' my father... " Dang! How tall are you now!
I had a total Dual FMS and PDU/CDU failure in flight where everything froze up once. Meggitt did stay alive. Went straight and level, advised ATC that they were going to lose me for a few minutes to which they replied maintain altitude and heading UFN and recontact and reset transponder when able. Reset the entire electrical system in flight and everything came back and the FMS did not dump the route! Washington Center was very busy during the witching hour but was most accommodating and all worked out. Of course MX said "Cannot duplicate" and all was well😅
Never good when your ejection seat misfires.
51 days sounds a lot like a 32-bit microsecond (edit: yeah millisecond, it was late at night lol) counter rolling over. Although that would be 49.7 days, 2^32/(1000x60x60x24). I still would be willing to bet that's what it was. In the airworthiness directive I mean, not in this incident.
Now that’s a nerd talking…😂
Millisecond
Yes, I just made the same calculation... It wouldn't be the first time that a software based clock has rolled over with implications that the programmer never considered. After all, flight durations are always less than a day, right...?
Yep, I just made a similar comment. But it's milliseconds... :^)
Cool, I’m glad somebody knows this stuff 😜
It blows my mind that two guys in a little office are flying whats basically a building almost ss big as a city block, through the sky at 500mph
Oh buddy wait until you hear about Cruise Ships
That made me really laugh, thanks
@@JPR3D But in a cruise ship, if you f up the controls, it doesn't spontaneously sink to the bottom of the ocean. At worst you float around on the surface without power - so it's kinda not the same
@@gorak9000 See the p00p cruise of hell. You can face serious issues, even if stays floating, but with no popultion, or energy, stranded without control and getting low on supplies, not bathrooms. They pack their complexity.
Technology today, amirite?
In the Navy we called turning it off and back on again a “Raytheon reset”.
Still seems odd considering how slow the seat moves.
This is what I said to a friend of mine. There is more to story
@@RandomVidz369 It is explained in the next video.
The seat moves forward slowly, at some point the yoke is being pressed forward with more and more force (countered by the autopilot) until the autopilot disconnects, leaves the yoke free to swing forward, and it will do so very quickly.
I’m a retired 777 Captain from American. When I was coming along there was an incident on the MD-11 that was exactly like this one. In that case the copilot was moving his seat forward after being served his meal tray. The seat pushed against the yoke electrically without the copilot realizing it until the autopilot disconnected with the resultant violent attitude excursion. We live and learn. (Sometimes)
Just as in those fancy cars with electric seats, I might imagine forward/rear seat motion being locked out when the car is not in 'P'ark position ... or in case of aircraft when the gear is 'Up'. Then again, sometimes it needs to be moved, in which case there might be some manual override initiated by the other pilot in attentive and positive request-response fashion; or some cover-protected override switch somewhere on the overhead. In a car or motorcyle, there's never any exception to move a seat while moving though.
Last year before I qualified PPL I had an incident in my Tomahawk (PA38) when on climbing out my seat shot backwards. Having viewed all the RUclips scary stuff I had the good sense to let go of the column and shout to my CFI in the right seat ‘grab it Dave’. Not surprisingly he new what to do.
What a scare!
On landing later the seat came out for an impromptu maintenance. The locking pins were adjusted and lived to tell the story.
Not the first time that’s happened. Happy you had the presence of mind and had someone with you. Seats coming loose have killed pilots, including one I knew.
There's an AD about the seat rails in the C-172 for the same problem, which has killed pilots as they grab the controls while sliding backwards, causing the airplane to pitch up during takeoff and stall close to the ground. Yeah, always use that checklist which states "SEATS - POSITIONED AND LOCKED."
I did the same thing getting off the freeway in a car with a manual seat release. As I was braking for some stupid reason I decided to move the seat a bit as I was feeling cramped. The second I touched that release the seat slammed forward. I was immediately pinned up against the steering wheel and my foot put the brake pedal into the firewall. Locked the brakes solid at 50 mph and slid to a stop, no abs in a 1999 Corolla 5spd. With the abrupt nature of the movement and the fact my hand blew off the release the instant the seat hit the front limit there was nothing I could do until the car stopped. It was one hell of a oh sh1t moment.
Ah yes, which is why my CFI back then had me add "violent butt jiggle" to my checklist, to make sure the seat was locked. Especially on some of those clapped out old Cessnas and Pipers, those rails and levers were a point of failure.
Pilots have died when that happened. Seat slides back on take off... column pulled bac... stall...
Why the 'ell would a pilot go back and tell passengers that his flight screens went blank??
It's a "hearsay" thing where one person is relaying what another person has said according to a third party. "I'm saying he said she said." Usually inadmissible in court because the probative value is generally weak, there are exceptions. Yes this isn't court, but that is why I grimaced when I heard Juan report this "information". I knew it was terribly weak. Better evidence should be extracted soon.
Agree - this story isn't making sense; pilot out of the cockpit strolling around? My first thought was DH crew.
There is an interview with that passenger relaying what the pilot told him. I don't see how that is hearsay. @@wadepatton2433
What is DH? @@aairsick
Pax asked pilot (who had walked back to cabin to check things out) "what happened?". Pilot replied that screens went blank. There is video of the specific pax in question relating this story.
Considering tales of metal shavings in 787s by the now-deceased whistleblower, could well be an intermittent short of the power bus feeding the displays and any control systems using the same supply.
Why would a pilot make up such a story?
*Which begs the question; When will keeping your seatbelt on during flight (if just loosely) become a requirement, instead of a suggestion!?*
There's a flap over the seat control toggle switch. Unless you flip it up and press the switch how could it be inadvertent?
Unless it’s broken off? Just a thought, time will tell.
Flap broke off on a previous flight maybe?
Cover could have been left open, it doesn't close automatically.
The electronic seat adjustment is so ssllloooow, just think of your modern car, that it would give the pilot plenty of time to react. Not an issue, whether inadvertant of not.
@@blackbandit1290I agree, and why would the seat pitch forward anyway? To gain ingress or egress, the seat moves back and sideways. And when it moves forward that's only to the pilot seat setting.
I think some funny business was going on in the flight deck if this is true. In 22 years as cabin crew and onboard manager I’ve been fortunate enough to never have an incapacitated pilot. It’s extremely rare. And an incapacitated pilot is the ONLY time cabin crew should ever touch occupied pilot seat controls. We are trained to do so only for incapacitation. I’ve never had a pilot request I move their seat for them when serving a meal or for any other reason. It sounds very fishy that a flight attendant would touch a covered switch at the back of the seat that is intended only to pull the seat back in the event of incapacitation. The pilot has his own buttons to do the same function when conscious. The seat also doesn’t move fast enough to surprise the pilots and get it pushing against the control column before they could correct it.
I’m going to guess that some horseplay was going on in the flight deck probably between pilot and flight attendant who were too friendly or familiar with each other, and ignoring SOP’s. I’d further speculate that the pilot could only have been in the fully retracted position with his seat laying back, and perhaps feet up somewhere when the flight attendant entered with a meal. Perhaps then the pilot requested for a bit of fun that the FA adjust the seat for the pilot. And with feet near the control yoke, they have pushed the aircraft nose down. Or the FA had done the adjustment without permission (again due to over familiarity)
There’s no other scenario other than really outrageous flight deck behaviour (like a flight attendant in the lap of a pilot) that could explain the excuse that the seat was moved to a position where the pilot inadvertently pushed the control forward to a nose down position. On wide bodies, sometimes the pilots will request the meal or snack be given to them on the outboard side of the seat. This happens often in A330 aircraft as they don’t want the risk of a meal or drink spilling onto radio controls in the centre of the flight deck layout. But they always adjust their own seats and allow for the cabin crew member to come behind and present the meal or drink to them in the outboard side for them to turn and accept the meal or drink. I’ve done this a million times, never once have I adjusted the seat for the pilots.
I was scrolling down to find this comment before making one similar. I agree that some type of physical interaction between two people is a highly plausible hypothesis, and the pilot having some weird unclear excuse. We will see!
Your theory makes a lot more sense than anything else I've read so far. What especially cements it as the most plausible, other than the technical mechanical limitations of the seat adjustment controls, is the brief explanation one of the pilots gave to a passenger. That a pilot would even give any excuse to a passenger, just screams of nervous guilt of their FUBAR moment. Yeah, goofing around up in the flight deck makes more sense than anything else.
They was banging!
Hmm - rather sounds like you were an honorary member of the Mile High Club.
Something similar happened to an RAF Voyager (A330 Tanker). A camera lodged between the armrest and side stick for the captain was pushed forward as the seat was adjusted. Plane went into a nose dive!
My mind immediately went there as I heard him mention the seat activation.
It was carrying 180 plus passengers.
@@AirShark95
Is that the Chilean Flag ?
@@AirShark95same
What's worse than gravy over your uniform, gravy over the instruments. 😧
Spilled coffee took down a plane a few years ago! Look it up.
Maybe that why Boeing painted the panels Tan.
“Gravy”
You dont need to reboot,Just take the cartridge out and blow on it and put it back in.
The airplane BSOD'ed. Did you try rebooting it?? Are you SURE it's plugged in??
@@gorak9000-- Don't just blow on it - clean the contacts with an eraser!
@@poopytowncat That's what she said... ??
"Disengage with gusto" is one of my new favorite phrases.
Yeah that was good! 😊
“Hello A&P. Have you tried turning it off and on again”
Unplug it and plug it back in.
That’s how we get all those pesky messages to clear on an Airbus.
It's not "A&P", it's "IT". Are you SURE it's plugged in? Thanks for calling IT
@@gorak9000 whooosh. That’s the sound of the A&P part of that joke flying over your head in a 787 🤣
@@gorak9000 just so I’m not being a total douche. A&P is shorthand for aircraft tech (airframe and powerplant). So it was a twist on the original :)
Thats some creative speculation. Who is going to stand there holding the switch to slowly drive the pilot into the column? And is there even enough movement of the seat to do that in the first place?
It's also worth noting that the pilot seat position thing has bitten crews before. The other time was on an Airbus (military version of the A330, as I recall.) A pilot had his DSLR out taking pictures and laid it down beside it seat. He later came back to his seat while the other pilot was flying and, immediately after he moved his seat forward after sitting back down, the aircraft entered a sudden, violent descent. Turns out his DSLR got pinched between his seat and his side stick and pushed it into the full nose-down position - so hard that it actually left marks on the side stick, which is largely how investigators ultimately figured out what happened, as I recall (when paired with FDR data, of course.) The other pilot was flying at the time, so the pilot whose camera hit the stick did not have his hand on his side stick. Since Airbus just averages the controls by default, his stick's sudden full-forward deflection kicked off the AP and sent the aircraft into a nose dive.
Flight crews, please ensure that your tray tables and seat backs are in the fully upright position.
Well, interesting. It doesn't look like the seat moves quickly enough to cause a "sudden" collision with the yoke, and/or an equally sudden retreat from the yoke. There were also reports (as I recall) of some shaking of the aircraft (not clear if it was before or during the dive). I'm agreeing with rockqc91 below - it doesn't seem plausible. I'm not sure if the autopilot, though, actually trims the aircraft, or overrides/disengages the trim and by doing so operates the control surfaces after bypassing the trim settings. I've never flown anything larger than a Seneca III - so I'm out of my lane, or victor airway, on that one.
I really look forward to Juan’s explanation of events aviation, fires, floods, drought, ship groundings (Ever Given), you name it if he’s explaining it I’m watching!
Also why do people refuse to wear seat belts. When I’ve flown with my grand children I’ve always used a FAA approved child seat for them, may cost more for a ticket they’re not injured. I really like the comment about changing passengers more for in flight weightless experience though.
Millions of people get in their cars and drive withhout a sealbelt too. Cant fix stupid (or 'its my god given 'murican right to be stupid')
What makes you think people refused to wear seat belts? This was during the seatbelt off phase of flight. 12 people (including crew) were injured - and someone has said this was also during meal service. 12 out of 300+ does sound like a plane full of people refusing to wear seat belts.
Honestly in the current times I live for your updates ! Thank you so much Juan !
Thanks, Juan! I was so curious about this incident. Thanks for the deep dive…if you’ll pardon the pun.
When I was doing my jet conversion onto the B757 righthand seat I was shown the overhead panel removed from the aft cabin which had a very neat head size hole punched up through the ABS/honeycomb material. This was caused by an unfortuate cabin crew member who was just about back at her crew seat when the aircrat hit clear air turulence. The pilot had just asked all passengers to return to their seats and crew clear the meal service.
All passengers were unijured as they were all wearing their lapbelts, all trolleys were secured and all crew bar this one flight attendant were strapped in. She suffered concussion and a cracked skull but made a full recoery. Since seeing that panel I always have my seatbelt fastened and feel vulnerable in the WC as there is no belt in there lol!!
I'd like to petition for extra ceiling foam in the john, just in case an airplane gives unwanted head. What a worry - it's enough to put you off your stroke. Flying 'jobbies' might be cause for concern too... 👽♟
For that pilot's career I hope his statement that the screens went blank was correct. Otherwise it sounds like an excuse and cause for review. Maybe he should have just said that it was being investigated.
Unless it is recorded or he admits saying such, it's pure hearsay and inadmissible in court--but this ain't court. Hearsay tends to be super weak evidence and therefore mostly excluded from judicial proceedings. It's no stronger here unless ratified by admission. But it could easily be denied. Court or no, we cannot go on what he said she said he said.
You got me worried.. No videos about this incident... but now we know more. Thanks
Really, they can't block flights after a certain time?
From an IT perspective, you could relatively easily place two guards on the uptime value. At 45 days/1080 hours, trigger an EICAS alert to notify the flight crew and have them create a techlog entry. To completely block the route of ignoring the alert and flying past that point, have the TOWS also guard the uptime value and trigger when the allowed value is exceeded. Perhaps set the second value a few days out to allow the restart to happen on the next stop at an airline hub.
Whilst adding such a new barrier to an aircraft is much more complicated due to the level of testing and approval required, a possible remedy would be doable without too extreme modifications.
It would only be possible to exceed that time if you never brought the plane into a hangar for maintenance... which seems bizarre but I guess it's possible in some warmer climate.
It's a bug. They couldn't build in a workaround for it because they didn't know it existed.
In that case why not just reboot on some periodic schedule? There are plenty of other unknown situations that can be remedied by a reboot anyway, such as corrupted memory locations.
@@ignorance72Any competent programmer dealing with counters and clocks is aware of overflows. If they choose not to deal with it they need to document the power-on time restriction.
Crew meal gravy on my uniform shirt? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!!!
When you are eating off of a tray on your lap. It is wedged between your gut and the yoke (sometimes pretty firmly with expanding girth). It doesn’t take much seat movement to force the yoke to the point that it disconnects. I remember when electric seats first debuted on the DC-10. Some creative pilot came up with a checklist for seat runaway (jammed balls) procedure.
As always a fantastic analysis, Juan!
It occurs to me, as ex-cabin crew, that one of the main reasons for that rocker switch is in case of pilot incap??
Surely if you've vacated the seat at the end of the flight, and another crew or engineers are taking over the aircraft - why would you use the switch to move the seat all the way forward again with nobody in it, just for the next person to have to pull it back out again?
That makes no sense!
Usually, you have to move it all the way forward after getting out of the seat in order to retrieve your flight bag.
The 787 switch is just for convenience. Normally you would have to bend down and reach the regular switch on the inboard side of the seat. Seats get put full forward for maintenance access to outboard panels or just to get them out of the way. That rear switch is not something that would be used in flight.
No one suggested that this is what happens. How'd you come up with that one?
Exactly!@@pi.actual
@@erickborling1302 Because it's exactly what the demonstration video at the start suggests. That is, the seat is fully forward when the pilot enters the cockpit. In my 25 years of flying that's generally how the seat was positioned when I entered the cockpit.
Hi Juan,
That switch is very convenient to use. 😅😊
Thanks for this video. I have been awaiting your take.
Juan - great channel ... One thing - when you are presenting documents, can you zoom the document to full screen? This makes it easier for us to read along.
Reminds me about the Airbus story when one of the pilots were out of the cockpit, and the pilot in the cockpit got his camera out and took some pictures (which he is not allowed to when alone). He then placed the camera on the 'desk' right behind his joystick.
A bit later he moved his chair forward and the armrest hit the camera - which in turn hit the joystick - which in turn sent the aircraft in a nose down direction. He managed to bring the aircraft back 'on track' - but some injuries was unavoidable.
And it was the Air Canada flight when the pilot woke up after a long nap - saw and oncoming AC - sent his AC in a nose down direction - before the awake pilot managed to bring the AC back on course - By the way, the oncoming AC was the planet Venus
Thanks for covering this Juan. I have to admit that your story makes me more scared than relieved though. The 50+ powered hrs issues is really scarry. Wonder how the plane's computers perform a reset? Do they take into consideration that it might happen at 30,000 ft? Yikes.
The computers don't reset by themselves. The airplane needs to be shut down and rebooted on the ground. This doesn't always happen, though. Between flights, airplanes are always plugged into ground power at the gate. And they are often left powered on overnight while maintenance is happening. So if the airplane is powered on for more than 50 days in a row, there might be a computer glitch.
30,000 feet is probably the safest time for them to do a reset... (Well, other than parked on the ground of course)
Was looking for your review on this.
It will be an interesting story when all the facts come out! Thanks again Juan.
I did not see a notice on this, oh well let's check it out.
I remember a British military Airbus tanker upset caused by a dslr camera jamming the side-stick forward when pushed by the seat. Much more needs to be learned about this Dreamliner incident, confirming if it was indeed a seat movement and why it moved. I balance a clipboard on my legs to use as a table (B757 freighter) it's both unstable and uncomfortable so I stay away from saucy food, mostly eat sandwiches. Thanks Juan for the update!
Not a tanker!
Thank you the update. (subscribed)
51 days? Where did that come from? Well, 51 days is 2^32 (two to the 32nd power) milliseconds.
Fascinating!
It's an overflow condition, a jiffies bug for aircraft.
Except it's 49.7 days... but certainly close, and could count as 51 depending on what time in a day they start counting.
Wasn't that a Windows 98 bug back in the day? Surely just a coincidence.
Yeah,rollover of a 1ms tick timer. First thing I thought of and did that same calculation. Log2(51*24*3600*1000).
Autopilot should be keeping the trim properly set during cruise. However if the seat moved forward and gave a nose down input, the autopilot would try and counteract that input until you reached the required disconnect force, and then you would get an abrupt pitch change. It seems to me you should get an abrupt nose up pitch in that case, but I've been retired from the airlines almost nine years. Thanks Juan for keeping us up on all this...
Me think someone spilt their coffee
wait a minute - the seat moves forward and pushes the pilot into the yoke and gave a nose down input strong enough to disengage the autopilot and then after that happens you say "you should get an abrupt nose up pitch in that case?" I don't understand. what am i missing?
@@brians9508 I answered on wrong account a few minutes ago. Here is my cut and paste:
Its been nine years since I flew as Captain, but IRRC, the initial pressure on yoke would be down. Autopilot is still engaged, and tries to compensate with a little up trim. More pressure still being applied nose down, autopilot corrects with more up trim. Eventually the autopilot takes a break and the trim is in the last position commanded by the ---autopilot---. So I am thinking it would pitch up, and as stated by Juan, it can be a dramatic pitch change. Hopefully Juan will see this and if my logic is off, correct things.
Another top number report Juan,May all injured recover ASAP.again,safe flights mate,👏👏🙏👋👋👍🇦🇺
Thanks Juan. Good update. Now, I'm hungry... Safe Flying & Best Regards
"Cold Iron" baby! Fixes her every time.
What is “Cold Iron”?
3:40 Why would a pilot tell a passenger the screens went blank?! They could say it's turbulence, or that they were investigating the situation. Screens going blank is only going to scare the passenger!
That what I thought, the pilot would scare the passenger even more
scare the hell out of boeing for sure😂
Turns out, they knew exactly what caused it! The seat moved forward when the flight attendant touched the cover for the control on the back of the seat! The pilot probably pushed his happy meal into the yoke! "Screens went blank"! 🤣
Thank YOU Sir! I believe this might have happened... Hopefully more will follow!
Not sure this is correct, it wasnt a pitch down event, rather a sudden drop in a few seconds. Something like that usually happens in an air pocket. Wonder if it were a systems failure why did the aircraft not continue to glide with existing momentum. A sudden fall when plane has forward momentum is akin to an invincible hand from above pushing the plane down all of a sudden, not a setting of computer systems failure…
That switch on the seatback moves the seat so slowly, can't visualize that happening.
Can you have the trim so out of whack and THEN have the autopilot hold the speed via elevator force?
I would think there would be a " OUT OF TRIM" Warning horn and light going off and the boxing glove on a spring coming at you .
God Bless--- Boeing is in a tough media cycle.
Wasn't the seat , I work on 787's and IF someone did lean on the switch the seat moves so slow it would not JOLT the PIC .
also why would that Jolt the PIC so bad he would walk out startled to ramble to passenger's that he lost displays for a brief time?
PIC's just do not walk out and start rambling to the passengers.
If you told me a pic got his food tray stuck between his chair and the yoke so it abruptly dropped auto-pilot, I (a layman) would believe the pilot would want to tell the passengers some story other than that.
@@dudeinanofficechair7662 ... pilots not going to say anything to some random Joe on the plane.
Let me ask a question regarding the door plug on the Alaskan plane! If the bolts were never installed on the door plug by the plant that manufactured it, would or could that fact be missed at the Boeing plant when they removed and reinstalled it for their procedure at the main plant? In other words, if there were no bolts, would that point not be picked up and then not installed or re-installed because they were not there to begin with?
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with this theory, my first reaction to this incident was a stick push of some kind but a meal tray would work very well. Keep up the great work, may see you down route sometime.
It has a COVER over the SWITCH so how could it be activated unless someone lifted the cover and pushed the switch so the seat would move forward.
Boeing forgot to install the bolts that hold the cover in place...
I flew on a 787 from Hawaii to Dallas. Loved the aircraft. Kept my seatbelt fastened the entire flight. Time spent stuck to the ceiling: Zero seconds.
Bullocks. Pax need to get up and move around for different reasons. Cant expect paxs to sit locked down on longer flights.
Okay, you insufferable pedant - you got me. I should have been clearer on the idea that on an eight hour flight I did indeed unbuckle my seatbelt so that I could use the restroom. Hope that clears things up for you. And “Bullocks”? Really? I’m being lectured by some bell-end who brings innocent farm animals into discussions on airline safety? Here’s the funny part: I know that you actually typed “Bollocks” but that autocorrect changed it! But see, this is exactly what internet putzes like yourselves do, and I’m doing it to you! Unlike you, however, I would not make a habit of it because it doesn’t make me feel smarter or bigger. On the contrary it makes me feel insignificant and annoying. Right?
By the way, I can do this all day. All. Day.
@@frankgallagher5786 Keep your seatbelt fasten while you are in your seat.
Thank you for explaining the seats so clearly.
Also, I chuckled when you mentioned the possibility of getting gravy on your uniform.
That first video of the seat demo looks like it’s from Stig! He’s awesome.
Seems a tad unlikely that a pilot would tell a passenger “All my screens went blank”. I’m not saying the pilot didn’t say it, but it just seems an odd thing to divulge even if it was the case.
Murphy and Peter had a child and named it Boeing.
I watch your videos and read the comments and I learn something always. Thank you for your work.
I could see a meal tray left in the seat and the seat being switched forward making the tray push the yoke until the forward pressure got great enough to disengage the autopilot. The seat has a cut out, but with a tray in the seat, it would push the yoke.
Old mechanic here. As I was taxing in to the gate seat slid back when I applied brakes! Oh shit! Put it in reverse all ok. EMB 120.
Something here doesn't jive. I have flown as passenger both fights LA800/801, and the route is SYD-AKL-SCL, originating in Santiago, the second leg, outbound AKL to SCL, being almost 14 hrs. There most likely be no meal between SYD and AKL for the crew, but certainly between AKL and SCL. And a relief crew for the second long leg.
Obviously the crew was not injured so they were wearing their lap belts. And if there was a meal served, the tray is not strong enough to push the control column ( and the meal would have spilled) with enough force to disconnect the A/P as it takes several dozen pounds to trip the A/P, which the tail plane would remain in trim at the time of A/P disconnect. Even with the seat full forward, there's no contract with the control column. As for the airplane, not sure why it would remained powered for over 51 days, this being similar to an E170 PBIT issue. At some point in time, only the service bus has been powered, which is mostly DC or 115VAC/60hz, not 400hz. We are missing something else here, and it's probably not the seat. Great video, Juan.
More interesting info. There were several of these unusual odd occurrences all in a row. Some people jumped to blaming DEI hires and general decline in workmanship. Some people started to suspect sabotage. Then the Boeing quality control whistleblower shows up suicided. All within a week. Is someone deliberately sabotaging, and then blaming DEI, in an effort to deflect blame from the decline in quality controls?
While no incident like this is trivial it's better that this be a seat issue rather than an instrument brown-out.
Thank you very much for bringing this topic up! It seems to be the right point.👍
I was already starting to suspect that all those "passenger said pilot said" headlines were bull, and this is certainly evidence in favor of that.
That is why I always wait for Juan’s report.
I have worked on these flight deck seats for a major airline for many years and I have never seen a electronic seat actuator either crew or cabin work like this.(speed/force)
The only way to create this is trip a manual release control and move with manual force.
Until I see proof I call BS.
I had the same problem with the floor mat sliding up under the brakes......
The ground reset is very common on the Embraer 190 aswell :D
Why does the cockpit voice recorder have such a ridiculously small capacity?
To prevent airlines from eavesdropping on their pilots who might be talking about information the airlines don't necessarily have a right to know. Pilots are totally allowed to have private conversations while at work, just the same as you are. Trying to ban such talk would have an adverse effect on pilot quality. The sterile cockpit rule only comes into play during take off, landing, and a few other flight conditions.
@@sheldoniusRexThanks that makes a lot of sense, it would be unbelievably taxing to have to have a sterile cockpit long haul flights even very short flights.
Ugh: 51 days to reproduce a bug that shows up with long runtime! This is why automated software testing has its limits. A real person doing tests and observing strange stuff that wasn't in your test procedure.
Arguably overflow errors are extremely common and easy to test for; likely it was assumed that the overflow was already handled correctly or couldn't impact other systems.
I love your channel
Brilliant knowledge and features. Please keep it up 😊👍
excellent insight as always. thank you.
Why is there not a line of code to the effect ;
If the following conditions exist, reset CDN
1 Wheels on ground = Yes 2 Engines off line =Yes 3 Coffee maker cold = YES 4 Reset CDN and all systems that will kill you
" I can't let you do that Dave " ! Does Boeing not stress test thier code ?.
Daisy, Daisy!! Give me your answer, do.
Open the 'Plug door Hal " ?@@janetsmiley6778
Crtl+Alt+Del 🎸
Yep - Start Over - Too much input, we can’t handle it. 😜
We had a similar problem with the AHRS in the Embraer 145 with the same remedy
I experienced a similar situation adjusting the seat once while driving in my nissan micra.
Those Boeing seats look so comfortable. Perfect TV watching seat. Never underestimate pilot error when something out of the ordinary sinks your big jet airliner
Another reason to develop fully autonomous airliners and do away with human pilots altogether.
@@mitseraffej5812absolutely!! Then I will never get on another plane as long as I live.
@@ekbusdriver It won’t be in your or my lifetime that is for certain, but Airbus is actively working on the concept. What we will see soon enough is single pilot cruise operations on the ultra long range Airbus A350-10000.
The vast majority of travellers base their choice of airline on the ticket price. As the wage bill is second only to fuel in the cost of airline operation, reducing and eventually eliminating the highest paid group of wage earners in their business makes sense, and Airbus plan to exploit this.
After a couple of generations have known nothing other than autonomous cars and buses people won’t blink an eye getting on an autonomous airliner.
@@mitseraffej5812because autonomous vehicles famously never malfunction
@@mitseraffej5812 An autonomous system designed by Boeing
Seatbelts save lives!
Glad to see none of you had the fish!
Thanks Juan,....we all learn something new every day!
HAVE YOU TRIED TURNING IT OFF AND ON AGAIN?