IT’S Back!! But What was Actually WRONG With the B787?!
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- Опубликовано: 4 май 2024
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode. Enjoy checking them out!
Sources
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Videos
• Perfect Match! Xiamen'...
• Boeing ignites swelter...
• Our First 787 Test Flight
• 2020 Year of Gratitude
• Composite Materials
• Our People, Our Produc...
Articles
australianaviation.com.au/202...
www.airlive.net/alert-boeing-...
www.cnbc.com/2021/01/12/boein...
www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/boein...
www.aerotime.aero/articles/21...
blog.flightstory.net/137/787-p...
www.reuters.com/business/aero...
www.aviationpros.com/aircraft...
www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/bu...
www.seattletimes.com/business...
www.reuters.com/business/aero...
www.businessinsider.com/boein...
www.flightglobal.com/airframe...
simpleflying.com/boeing-787-s...
theaircurrent.com/industry-st...
CHAPTERS
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00:00 Start
00:29 787 Returns
01:30 First Issues
03:18 Design problems
05:19 Wrong shims+uneven skins
07:43 Moving Sites
10:11 Problems continue
12:58 Airlines Demands
13:40 New orders
15:09 Conclusions
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It is really wholesome to get this mini podcasts and production's on more current events. Thank you team🙂 and Petter.💙✈🤍👍🏼👌🏽
6:03 The engineers said it was a baby gap.
At 5:24, why the hell is there a portrait of osama bin laden in the background of the boeing factory?
@Mentour Now! I have a question. Do you know if The Boeing Company responded to these RUclips videos about deception and corruption by Al Jazeera Investigations?
People & Power - On a wing and a prayer
ruclips.net/video/IaWdEtANi-0/видео.html
The Boeing 787: Broken Dreams l Al Jazeera Investigations
ruclips.net/video/rvkEpstd9os/видео.html
@Mentour Now! I have a question. Do you know if The Boeing Company responded to these RUclips videos about deception and corruption by Al Jazeera Investigations?
People & Power - On a wing and a prayer
The Boeing 787: Broken Dreams l Al Jazeera Investigations
Boeing, once a symbol of what was right with American engineering and general competence, has now become a symbol of all that’s wrong with this country. The company prioritized short-term profit at every opportunity, showed no loyalty to its most skilled workers, outsourced everything in sight, rewarded its corrupt senior executives with absurd pay packages, compromised both safety and quality across the board, attempted to blame the pilots for it’s criminal negligence in the 737 MAX debacle, and now may very well become a pure defense contractor in the years ahead since making commercial airliners is so hard. The entire senior management of the company should be replaced.
Actually Boeing, a once symbol of what was good with America engineering and general competence, accidentally made a big mistake that made everything look bad of the country and how its run. But now its the complete opposite.
All companies prioritise short term profit et every opportunity 👍. No loyalty either to their employees, rewarded their corupt senior executives with absurd packages, also compromise both safety and quality across their boards and all that applies to BA the airline. Yes we know they blamed the pilots but that was right to some extent for them.being not trained well. I wouldn't go far as criminal negligence of the 737max debacle. Making commercial planes in the future will only be hard if the materials used are hard to keep sturdy and safe. The entire management of the company is being replaced and changed
@@nickolliver3021 “If everyone is doing it, it’s okay” is a majorly flawed way of thinking
@@XenaAndKin sadly its how life is run by flawed thinking
@@nickolliver3021 That’s not how humanity should give up and hand it over to our own flaws. Keeping everyone equally accountable is the first step of fixing the hell hole we’ve created. Defeatist behaviour will only get us into even deeper trouble than we already are as a species. We’re awful, and we need to fix it now.
@@XenaAndKin exactly humans will only destroy themselves if everything is all about money not safety. Exactly that. The only way is up now 🙌
After the lethal mistakes and shortcuts on 737MAX combined with the chaotic development of the 787 itself, I feel much happier knowing the FAA is applying tighter oversight to new production.
They are certainly tightening the screws, that’s for sure.
@@MentourNow They are, but are they going to keep it up for the future? That is the real question that has to be answered.
@@nerd2814 most likely they have change a lot over the decades in good ways for safety
Fascist
As FAA stated that they had given Boeing self certification rights because they (FAA) didn't have the necessary competence to carry out the certifications of the 737 Max, I find it very worrying that FAA, with it's lack of competence, is now actively working with the certifications of the much more advanced 787...
These machines take an incredible amount of time to design and even longer to produce with reliability. The background projects that lead to reliable production are not seen. I'm not an aviation engineer. I'm a controls engineer and yet, I got to work on a temperature sensing system to detect curing temperatures of composite wing panel parts bonding(it was done with theatre lights). That was back in 2008. We did the research and testing in the basement of a decent physicist in his home in Massachusetts. We designed a system to shut down the heat when it exceeded tolerances and could damage the material. It worked, I'm proud of it but, it was only one-millionth of the things that are needed to make that beast work. Production aircraft are beasts and making them work is a definite feat.
It is indeed! Thank you for sharing 💕
@@MentourNow And then there is Crasheing willing to murder hundreds of people to save a few bucks. See MAX. Sad to see you're still shilling for company that literally paints their planes with blood. I also like how you didn't mention the factory with issues from this video is the one with overworked, underpaid crew subjected to union busting. Again, Crasheing trying to steal $$$ from workers who actually make the planes, screw people who will be flying these planes later, eh?
Even after delivery of any aircraft, every one is a flying laboratory.
@@appomattoxross6751 The same could be said for any ordinary passenger car, yet the efforts put into building and testing the aircraft is millions of times more rigorous and intensive.
and these Einsteins at Boeing still use inches and whatnot other imperial cr** for their measurements. After all these decades of science and engineering having found out how absolutely superior the SI and metric system are. It's just incredible.
As I understand it from a friend who was high up at Boeing back then, all of these 787 problems trace their origins back to the final launch approval meeting in 2004 in which the head of the Boeing engineering department said that "We will need at least 5 years to develop this airplane but we would prefer to have 6 years". The head of Boeing marketing said "We sold it in 3 years".
Not the timeline. It was the business model where it all came undone.
You have an invasive fake Mentour in your replies it must be exterminated.
That's normal. If you are an engineer asked for a project time estimate, you quickly learn to develop a timeline, then at least double it for the management dults. Worked for me.
When share price overrules engineering practicalities disaster ensues.
This issue is covered by this video: ruclips.net/video/BKorP55Aqvg/видео.html It was supposed to be a comedy sketch but seems too close to reality...
Boeing used to be a company run by engineers, now it's run by bean counters, which is the doom of every business.
Was run by bean counters, they've since been fired along with the old ceo
it's like Apple 💀 something bad to the mighty apple too!
One sees the same mentality in health care in the US as well. This is part of a more general trend in our society.
Please save us from Harvard MBAs.
@@infectdiseaseepidemiology2599 sad I can put only 1 thumbs up.
I've always enjoyed travelling on the Dreamliner especially on very long journeys because of the higher cabin pressure (6000 feet equivalent) and the 6% cabin humidity it offers. I generally feel less jet-lagged - and less of a dried out wrinkled prune when I arrive!
Ever heard of the a350?
@@jemand8462 no
do you mean 10 to 15 %?
@@paulmorgan8254 Yes, sorry ... 6% higher humidity I should have said.
Yes but if its body split open how comfortable would you be ^
As a Flight Attendant, the 787 Dreamliner is my favorite aircraft to work on. As a passenger, the 787 is significantly more comfortable, quiet. One also feels so much better when deplaning after a long flight due to the aircraft's higher pressurisation and humidity.
Spam alert!
I didn’t know about that.
I flew one to Tokyo from Boston in 2015, and the flight was 14-1/2 or 15 hours. It was far more comfortable than the 777. I seem incapable of sleeping on planes, so that long flight sucked, but it sucked less on the 787. The air quality was a huge factor, but the outstanding JAL flight attendants were key, too.
@@zefallafez You're the spam!!
But some airlines are hell bend on keeping it crowded and haggle passengers. Seats were supposed to be comfortable, moving passenger out off middle seat was supposed to be least cumbersome such as only one passenger to pass on. Where are those 2 x 4 x 2 OR 2 x 3 x 2 rows?
Sad story. A formerly great innovation and engineering company being killed by the new corporate culture. Boeing is not the only example. I usually have more to say but in this case, that's all. Thanks, Petter for this fairly thorough examination and commentary.
hmmm.... Boeing tried to reduce its labor costs, and ended up with quality control problems.
as my dad taught me, "you get what you pay for."
That might be true and if that’s the case, they had to pay dearly for those savings.
Qatar Airways would only take 787s from Everett not Charleston. Says a lot.
@@MentourNow the seattle plant uses union labor and they opened the other plant because they could use non union labor there.
Absolutely. The NYT Article about Boeing is great. Outsourced engineers cutting corners. Manufacturing management pushing timing instead of quality.
Total mess
I used to think it was a problem with properly ramping up production at the Charleston plant but he video clearly states the gap problem existed at both locations. A better method would be to increase the precision of the sections such that they connect without variation. I realize this is not easy.
One of the problems that received a lot of notice was the PTFE contamination. It would be interesting to see a video on how it happend and and how it was fixed.
As an engineer, I feel for the teams that worked on the neat software to calculate the correct shim sizes, only for the production managers to decide not to use it.
Jeff, this certainly does happen, but I've seen my engineering colleagues deliver simplistic utilities that don't lead to "proper" use due to poor or confusing communication.
It's not that simple. The shims are measured using a surface scan. If there are issues with the scan, or surface characteristics, or shim profile smoothing issues, you end up with fitment issues. In that case the choice may be to remeasure a shim by hand using traditional means. Boeing tries to make these processes as simple as possible so unskilled people can be trained to do them. The reality is you can't insert unskilled workers into some of these production roles. You need people with experience that may require more pay, but they understand these processes and can identify issues more quickly.
@@JamieMurdock90 "What we've got here is, failure to communicate."
@@19krpm What unskilled workers?
@@afcgeo882 people who are hired off the street without previous aerospace experience requiring training are considered unskilled. Sounds worse than it is.
I am glad to see that our FAA is taking back their job responsibilities. Thanks for an interesting video.
Petter, what I most appreciate of your videos, is the fact that you talk about tecnical issues but some other issues, like maintenance problems, economic and legal issues. Keep up with it!!!
I think it’s important that the FAA do final inspections. Glad to hear that’s happening. Thanks for another interesting video!
Glad you liked it! See you over on Patreon! 💕
Clown A vs. Clown B. Good thing we found a new country to bomb to keep Boeing in business!
Iffa men and women were angels, we wouldn't need government. Iffa we were governed by them... well, you get the idea. The Federalist Papers...
@@rolandalfonso6954 North West Europeans (including Americans from there) would do just fine with no government. If the police in Idaho were all abducted by aliens or died from a mandated poison vaccine very little would change
@@rolandalfonso6954 Right. As disfunctional as any TLA might be, at least Someone isn't taking their word for it This time.
Now, just what they Might be taking instead of promises... Well, like you hinted at, no one is an angel.
Good to hear that FAA is starting to check things properly again. It is important that the person checking for problems doesn't have any sort of incentive (including a subconscious one) to overlook problems, which happens far too easily if they're hired by the company they're doing the checking for.
FAA inspectors are prone to some of the same problems. I would like to see fewer people involved in the assembly.
They are not doing it properly, though. They are doing bare, almost worthless minimum of work. It they did work properly, no Crasheing junk would leave factory (especially not the plant from the video, problematic one with overworked, underpaid crew subjected to union busting). It's scary to see even this tiniest minimum catches so many issues that were just outright ignored before to let Crasheing bosses steal more $$$, and f--k people working on and using the planes...
@@danharold3087
one person, for sure
Money buys people regardless of their jobs and conscious. Look at all those we have in power like Congress, POTUS and the list goes on. FAA is only playing the game as far as I can tell it. Boeing will be back to self certify their aircraft in the not to long future. FAA even made the statement of this. Believe they said “they’ll inspect each new 787 and give its approval only if/when they feel it’s safe to fly until it’s confident and deemed by them Boeing doesn’t need such scrutiny and regains there trust”!
@@danharold3087 Fewer people involved, how does that work?
That is and has been the problem, MORE PEOPLE WHO HAVE INTEGRITY AND PRIDE IN THEIR WORK IS THE RIGHT ANSWER!!
Boeing has had an extensive issue of maintenance people who care about doing the job right so planes don't crash and people don't DIE! It has been a HUGE issue with the KC 46 PEGASUS AIR REFUELING TANKER AIRCRAFT they delivered to us in the USAF on receiving the aircraft we found big quality issues and grounded the fleet for a year because of it!
I love how you deliver all the information. It is so clear and understandable to amateours and also avation professionalist can learn so much from your videos.
Watching your videos is always guarantee of time well spent.
I flew myself in a B-787 recently from Dallas to Buenos Aires. I was in economy plus and the experience was really great. The flight was very smooth, quiet and the seats were comfortable! One of the best long haul flight ever for me!
thousands of 737max passengers also had great experience. except 2 of them.
You are one of the few youtubers who can implement sponsor slots into the video in such a way, that I don't want to skip that advertisment part. :)
Thanks for the quality content!
I used to work on the 787 program. It was the airplane I learned most of my airplane knowledge from. Many long days working on the plane but one of my favorites.
My wife just flew from Houston to Istanbul on a 787(10?) and was in the very last row of the plane. I thought there would be a lot of engine noise back there and very uncomfortable seats unable to recline. To my surprise, she said her seat actually reclined and she almost had as much leg room as in business class! And it was quiet. So, maybe a heads up to anyone travelling overseas and can't afford business or 1st class, try to get row 38 and you might be pleasantly surprised.
I flew johanessburg-amsterdam in the last row of a 777. You dont feel takeoff and landing at all since you are so far back. Only "drawback" is that you are being rocked all time like a baby haha.
we flew a Norwegian airlines 787 Dreamliner from Oslo, Norway direct to Fort Launderdale a few years ago; a 10 hour flight Then overnight airport hotel there before flying further to Costa Rica. The flight to FLL was awful; we were at the back row, left side, but the seats didn´t recline more than a couple of inches and were narrow and hard (Recaro design) with limited legroom (i´m not tall, 5`9") but it still felt cramped. The return trans Atlantic leg was even worst as we were sat further forward, but I was sat next to a tall guy who had his legs splayed out because of the limited room. We´ve flown trans Atlantic many times with BA who use 777s for a lot of their trans atlantic flights, which are far more comfortable. But that flight was so bad we now check which aircraft is scheduled for long haul and won´t book a flight in a 787 again.
@@tnikoli40 777s are fine, we flew KLM Amsterdam-Johannesburg, that´s one of the best long haul flights I´ve ever been on. 787 though are terrible (in my opinion, as I mentioned below)
Sections of fuselages are not bonded together. They are fastened with Hi-Loks through skin and stringer splices.
Had a wonderful ride on a 787 Cancun to CLE. Changing the window shade is remarkable. 2 class roomy seats. Business class you get your shoulder belt and a desk.
Fantastic Petter the way you explain all your videos in such clear, interesting and professional manner. All the best.!
Boeing's cost are irrelevant. Just stop all stock buybacks and if necessary do a new equity secondary offer. Boeing was too focused on short term stock price to the detriment of customers, employees, and the long term success of the company. The terrible legacy of the GE management style, which drove GE into near bankruptcy as well.
Stock buybacks is literally market manipulation. Making it legal should never have even been a thought in the heads of any legislators.
Goes to show how utterly corrupt the US government is. Literally third world levels.
The current group of C-Suite guys are loathe to sell something at ~$160, when they paid $350+ for it...It would also dilute their compensation
When Boeing started making share value its priority it became a much worse company. It adopted too much of the McDonnell Douglas mentality. This also led to the view that plane safety was a "nice to have" feature, and led to the Max disasters.
I feel Boeing has gotten what it deserved. Unfortunately, people's lives were lost in its dangerous obsession with cost-cutting.
@@stevencooke6451 I absolutely agree with you 100%. Boeing aircraft were admired by everyone all over the world but have managed through their own incompetence to destroy decades of hard work and reputation. It's obsession to compete with Airbus by trying to cut corners and remodelling the N737 series aircraft, was an absolute disgrace and cost the lives of many innocent people when their 737Max programme came into question. I hope Boeing discontinue the 737Max and look at rebuilding their reputation. Having however just watching this clip about the 787 dream liner, unfortunately puts doubt in my mind that Boeing are actually doing any better today. Yes it can be argued that they went to the FAA highlighting the issues, but in all honestly, this to me seems highly suspicious as they probably thought it was better that they confessed that something was wrong, before someone blew the whistle and the FAA finding out. I do sincerely hope Boeing are able to pull themselves together as it takes decades to build a good reputation but minutes to destroy it.
That's neoliberal capitalism. The belief that the pursuit of profit above all else will lead to the best outcomes for everyone.
Surely even the Harvard MBAs in charge at Boeing must realize (however dimly) that so much as one more design- or manufacturing-related crash will be disastrous...
I saw a Dreamliner outside of the Renton Boeing facility last night as I was driving the truck to the Sherwin Williams store on Mukilteo Speedway. I was hoping they were coming back! Dreamliners are a fantastic plane! I've been in the one at The Museum Of Flight in Seattle and was quite impressed!
Another outstanding video. I hope Boeing is able to overcome these hurdles. They’ve had some issues the last few years, but historically produced safe, reliable, and beautiful planes, and I hope they get back to their roots
I'm flying in a 787-9 next week. First long haul flight in over 10 years. Looking forward to seeing all the improvements.
Hi,
Finally flew on one (twice) last year on my connection from JFK to Cairo.
British Airways was using them from Heathrow to Cairo and back.
I was thrilled to finally be able to fly on one, and except for some odd vibrating of the center bins on takeoff, it was an amazing experience. And yes, noticeably less Jetlag.
Always wondered video thank you so much once again keep it up....❤❤❤
I flew 7 years and over 4000 hrs on the 787 and never had that many tech problems with the aircraft. The RR Trent engines though were another matter - when you end up with three different groups of engines dependant on how good they are …nightmare . Overall loved the plane though and hope to return to it at some point
I have flown across the pacific MANY times...747, A380, 777 and 787
The 787 and 777 were leaps and bounds ahead of the others. Smooth flights, great seating and entertainment. One thing that freaked my out on the 787 was looking out at the wing and seeing the wing tip above the fuselage..I did the Tokyo to Denver flight in the 787 and it was a fantastic ride. 777 is a VERY close second. Thanks for the great video.
Excellent explanation- thank you. 😊
What a beautiful aircraft. I was worried about it with the covid shutdowns of international flights. I'm thrilled to see the marker for the 787 coming to life again.😃✈
Boeing inherited the cost-cutting culture of McDonnell Douglas which is still causing these kind of problems now.
I remember seeing a few years ago part of a documentary on the problems the 787 was having during its production. I remember a supervising maintenance foreman complaining about the level of personnel being hired, he said the last job a new hire had before working at Boeing was McDonald's. I would assume Boeing has strengthened its hiring qualifications since then.
i wouldn't bank on it
Maybe he said McDonnell
That was probably the Al Jazeera documentary that had undercover workers film inside the factory. No, they still think you can just hire someone off the street and train them. They should offer managers who make good hires a bonus, and dock the pay of ones that make a bad hire. The problem is the quality of available workers has gone down hill. We don't have an emphasis of manufacturing in the US anymore. No shop class, people don't fix things as much as dispose of them as well. When tech workers and engineers are held in higher regards than manufacturing personal on the floor, quality suffers. They don't have that problem so much in say Germany where manufacturing roles and engineering roles are both held to high standards.
@zenanarchist We call that irrational fear, like when a young child is scared of the dark.
@@19krpm Correct, a chronic problem across all industries and manufacturing, certainly in once great manufacturing countries such as the US. Lack of hands on skills with the physical world. Even down to finding suitable new recruits in the plumbing, electrical or other trades.
I fly long haul on 787 all the time, and quite simply it's a masterpiece of engineering. It's the only jet where I don't get headaches and irritated sinuses after the flight and I don't feel fatigued.
Yup its because they have the cabin pressurized to ensures that the cabin altitude does not climb above 6,000ft meaning your body does not have to work harder to oxygenate blood.
@@mrmike1183 All of the passenger jets we fly on today from Boeing and Airbus are pressurized. The big difference with the 787 is that they get the cabin air via scoops on the belly of the plane, where as the traditional design is to get cabin air by bleeding it off the engines.
@@Jbay2608 im aware but its the fact that the cabin pressure remains lower by about 2000ft than traditional aircraft. Also the 737 Max has now 6500ft cabin pressurization which makes it close to the 787. It's not about how you get the pressurization it's about how low you can get it.
@@mrmike1183 the A350 family is also pressurized at 6000ft. So does the A380. The B747 actually has less than 6000 ft. So all in all, most widebodies have the same cabin pressure which means, Gilbert just doesn't fly long distance much.
You fly the 787 frequently. You don't sit in the back then. Those seats are narrow and hard as a rock. I'll fly at a 9k elevation pressure if I can get a better seat. Give me the business suites and I'll fly on oxygen rather than cattle class. Boeing needs to start thinking about the consumer.
Nice video Petter. Some added points:
- Over at Leeham News a retired BA engineer, who is still hooked into the old boy network, has said that each fix requires about 3000 hours. 120 aircraft = 375,000 hours. A team of 100 specialists working 40 hours a week will take ~2 years to get all this done.
- Both those AA 87's were flown to Victorville and parked. Why? Staffing? Demand?
- Any news on the contamination issue?
Spam alert!
@@zefallafez Yah, thanks. Those things seem to be getting more and more prevalent...
I too would like to hear about the contamination. It just dropped out of sight.
It is great that Boeing is taking responsibility once again for the manufacturing issues that have plagued the company since the M.D. merger.
And I imagine the FAA shill/s have been weeded out - big compounding issue solved.
I also hope the company regains the trust of both passengers and operators. Time will tell...
After their behaviour with the 737 max can you blame the FAA with Boeing? There's no way I'd trust anything they make after that scandal.
What a great and well researched video Petter! I had no idea about what was going on with the 787 and the extent of the problems Boeing was having with them. It sure seems like Boeing is having LOTS of problems lately!
Thanks for the great video - Keep up the great work!
Good video - AND you have cleaned up your speech issue really well - I'm impressed and I know it's a lot of work - but you are much more credible now. Thanks
JR
Using carbon fiber instead of aluminum is a natural evolution to the manufacture of aircraft. It's going to have some growing pains which Boeing is experiencing right now. At the end of the day I think it'll lead to a much better commercial jet construction though. I loved the manufacturing clips inside Boeing! Very interesting to see.
I fully agree. The future lies in these new manufacturing techniques and there will always be hickups. As long as they are dealt with in the correct way, like Boeing did here, it will be ok.
the pain that boeing experiences is taking short cuts and profit over savety. i suppose you can call it evolutionary pain .....
I'm curios about how they'll handle the Faraday cage issue (or lack thereof), which protected occupants against lighnting tho.
@@DrunkHog there is a fine metal mesh woven around the whole fuselage which provides the necessary conductivity.
@@MentourNow
Now that you've mentiined it, I think remember you saying something about it in the Qatar vs Airbus vid.
Thanks for the reply, Petter! :)
If I was ever going to end up as an airline pilot, I'd want to be flying the 787, it seems like such a technological marvel.
I am happy with all the content on this channel. Top qualified and large insight in the industry shows us what it is all about. No roumers or BS, just serious. I am pleased with it
?
Thanks, this was very informative!
Great video, I’m glad that you finished on how good the B787 is to fly and critically; that it is the future. I was grounded by the pandemic and just got requalified on the B787, it’s an incredible plane. Pilots might rave about it, but it’s payload is incredible compared to its predecessors, probably exciting airline accountants too.
787 is basically the only way I get to visit my best friend, because no other type flies a direct route from EGLL to YPPH, so excited to see these issues get fixed. I'm not that great at swimming in the Ocean :D
@insuna, the plane has been flying safely for 11 years, I don't think you will be swimming.
Great episode Sir! Thanks very much for your great job!
Thank you for sharing the information about the new production of the 787! I flew to Narita on ANA's Dreamliner in 2019 and it was pure bliss.❤
JAL and ANA often use the 787 on high-volume domestic short-haul flights, like HND to Itami and HND to Sapporo . For many years, JAL used their 747s on the Tokyo-Osaka routes; flight time of about an hour.
I don’t trust these aircraft once these short hops start racking up cycles. I’m not confident even Boeing knows what will happen.
Interesting video as always! Good job Petter and team!
Thank you for supporting! 💕💕
They’re a nice ride. Booked on one from Abu Dhabi to Frankfurt in October in the nice seats at the pointy end. It’s the leg I really need to get some sleep on and these are about as comfy a plane as it gets.
Once again you made my day with an awesome video! Thanks much Mentour!
For some odd reason Boeing, several decades ago, was apparently happy to enter into an aggressively adversarial relationship with their unions, both with their engineering and the machinists who actually build their commercial aircraft. This changed after McD moved into the management positions at “Boeing”…
Disgruntled employees never consistently do top notch work.
Thanks Mentour, as always interesting & informative !
Another fantastic presentation! Our flight to Narita from San Francisco has switched aircraft from a trip-7 900ER to a 78-9ER.
"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!"
Today the issue is a lack of hardware (planes), but I have read that over the next few years a growing issue will be a lack of qualified flight crew. It takes longer to train a crew up to the flight hours standard than it takes to build more planes of an already certified model.
How is the industry addressing that?
It becomes easier then the flight deck instrumentation is the same configuration across models.
there was also a american 787 delivered out of pain field last monday to victorville, so two delivery flights so far
Yep I have a video of the take off on my channel and another test flight take off and landing of another AA 787-8
Excellent coverage of this topic. Thank You
Excellent content.. keep up the good work n efforts!
Boing used to be great when it was run by engineers. Bigger investment early prevents these costly delays later
Exactly. It's now run by penny pinchers interested only in maximum return on investment. The Board needs to resign and the staff vote in who they believe will run the company properly and I'd bet most of those voted in would be current or former engineers of all trades from within Boeing
@Phillip Banes For about 80 years, Boeing basically functioned as an association of engineers. Its executives held patents, designed wings, spoke the language of engineering and safety as a mother tongue. Finance wasn’t a primary language. Even Boeing’s bean counters didn’t act the part. As late as the mid-’90s, the company’s chief financial officer had minimal contact with Wall Street and answered colleagues’ requests for basic financial data with a curt “Tell them not to worry.”
@Phillip Banes it sure was... Read about it "The Long-Forgotten Flight That Sent Boeing Off Course"
@Phillip Banes The goal was to change Boeing’s culture.
And in that, Condit and Stonecipher clearly succeeded. In the next four years, Boeing’s detail-oriented, conservative culture became embroiled in a series of scandals. Its rocket division was found to be in possession of 25,000 pages of stolen Lockheed Martin documents. Its CFO (ex-McDonnell) was caught violating government procurement laws and went to jail. With ethics now front and center, Condit was forced out and replaced with Stonecipher, who promptly affirmed: “When people say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so that it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm.”
This is the best explanation of the 787 issues and the delivery outlook out there! Great work Mentour!
Being the aviation nerd that I am, when I had the chance to fly from the west coast of the US to Tokyo in 2016 I bought tickets on an All Nippon Airways' 787. It was the best long-haul flight I've ever taken. The planes feel roomy even though technically their seats are narrower, and the cabin environment made the flight much more restful. The dynamic response of the plane was really smooth as well... I loved watching those wings flex! The only thing I didn't particularly like was the dynamic windows, as they don't fully block out light. For that reason I'd recommend planning to arrive close to sunset on each leg to minimize jet lag.
This was all shortly before ANA had to ground much of their 787 fleet. If you haven't heard about this, it was because they were using those planes to fly short hops between their major cities, even though their efficient Rolls Royce engines are designed to be used for fewer takeoff-landing cycles, and so were showing accelerated wear. I was relieved to find out that the plane I flew on wasn't affected by that grounding (it didn't even have the RR engines).
Nothing to do with the 787, but All Nippon Airways somehow even has good food? Their service was excellent and well worth the higher price on such a long trip.
Another insider genius masterclass video from you mate, love the videos, love the channel!!
I'm flying the 787-9 and 10 for the first time next year on a trip to Thailand. I hope y'all are correct on the cabin pressure and humidity and sound level. As a previous long haul flyer on 777 and 747 mainly, I'm excited to experience the differences.
You will enjoy the 787...I flew in one of these types going to Vietnam in 2019. It was unusual to see the wings curving away upwards, when looking out of the window! Happy travels!
Every flight I have been in a 787 has been amazing. Did not like BA's seating in economy, but American's was really good. Quietest plane ive ever been in, so smooth. You'll love it. and as the other guy commented, watch those beautiful wings bend up, its majestic!
@@dumbcow1 I agree. I flew to S.E.Asia on "Qatar" and enjoyed the experience very much. On a 12-hour flight, it seemed as if they were serving food every 30 minutes! Every time I had finished, they collected....I looked out of the window, looked back and another tray of food met my eyes! I can't fault their service. (It seems that way!)
It is true about the wings as well! I was sat overlooking a wing, on the starboard side, and continually wondered how on earth this great big thing was still up in the air, with these wings flapping and curved upwards! Fascinating aircraft.
@@Mike-tb5gj Food before safety is Americans priority considering there are so many Americans who could be described as "beached whales"....plus a big comfy seat that can withstand the huge farts that Americans are famous for....
@@bertplank8011 Yeah - I think, if flatulence was an Olympic sport, nobody could wrestle the Gold from the Yanks at any time!
I think it’s wonderful that Boeing has gone back to their safety first mindset. The operational issues that originally led to the MCAS debacle and the quality control issues with the Dreamliner production line can never happen again. Also, Petter, if you feel it is appropriate, could you ask some of your friends that fly the 787 if they would mind providing source material to help out a mod developer for MSFS2020? Heavy Division’s 787XH development has stalled a bit because they can’t find anyone with firsthand experience with the systems of the aircraft to provide pictures, videos and explanations of how those systems function to continue development efficiently. If you don’t feel comfortable asking, I completely understand. Just thought I’d reach out 😃
I love these machines. They're the most elegant design of an airliner I've seen to date. Never had the chance to fly one yet though...
Tack, Petter. Bra gjort! Vi ses nästa gång.
I am happy if they learned from max issues and they taking much seriously any issues 😊
They are not.
when you factor in the issues with Boeing and their space program as well as these issues in their aviation department, there is definitely something not right going on within the company. sadly Boeing has been lurching from crisis to crisis for quite a few years now and i have yet to see anything that indicates the company is making meaningful corrective measures.
Well, they need to start somewhere but yes, these have not been good years for them.
@@MentourNow i come more from the spaceflight side of things, watching the Starliner travesty has been eye opening, through in the 737max and now the 787...it indicates to a company in chaos and from what i have seen, they have been really struggling since the merger in 97 with McDonnell Douglas. before the merger they were a company that had achieved excellence across many fields, now days though? i struggle to trust anything they produce.
@@KaidenOZ Yes, I have worked for a company that took over some of its traditional rival companies and you do get resentment issues that result from the changes in organisation etc.
I imagine there are morale issues. When people don't feel satisfied, valued, or managed well, it generally always shows in quality. It's so sad, I remember the former Boeing, an American company to be proud of and not just an "ooops". I realize delivering a passenger plane is an amazing feat, but they used to do it and lead the industry. Even without all the high tech.
@@Phiyedough That is for certain!: I have two close friends that worked for Chrysler since before is was overtaken by damn Daimler... the Germans had wrecked havoc in the American company by imposing younger German-nationality engineers above older, experienced and talented American ones.. that created A LOT of resentment, and when the less experienced, younger but promoted German engineers faced a problem, the Americans played a quiet kind of game, betting on how bad would the German react, and instead of helping to solve the problems, it became a disguised little personal wars, personnel from both nationalites compited AGAINST each other, instead of efectively collaborating together. Thanks to the Chrysler overtake by Daimler, it is now in shambles (or more appropriately: No longer exists), and Daimler also didn´t gain anything good from the bad deal.
Exactly the same happened when SIEMENS overtook Moore, a maker of EXCELLENT, top build quality PLCs (Programmable Logic Controllers, a kind of industrial automation device)... Moore PLCs were extraordinarily well built, you could drop a Moore brand module ahrd against a solid concrete floor, and the only damage would be a cosmetically dented modue chassis... Dropping a similar Siemens module in the same manner would instead destroy the flimsy innards, made with cheap printed circuit boards of standard to low "commercial grade" quality... In the end, Moore was aquired by Siemens only to disappear a rival competitor, but the overtake didn't rise the Siemens product quality the least bit, and the better product ceased to exist. Disgruntled Moore employees didnt't want to help the aggresive overtake by the Germans, so they preferred to leave the company instead of continuing working under the new owner.
Great job again as usual. Much appreciated
Very good video as usual.
It would have been nice to see a diagram that showed the actual design of the body section splices, and where the shims (if needed) go.
I remember attending an orientation to the 777 program when I did some work associated with it, and one of the leaders held up a shim and declared, "This is the enemy; we want to completely eliminate these shims". It is disappointing that shims are still required in the composite fuselage era. One of the Boeing tech fellows made the point back in pre-production days that if the fuselage sections weren't made in the same building at the same time there would always be problems with precise fit, and it seems he was prophetic. Question: can the single Charlottesville facility attain the same production rate as the combination with Everett provided in the past?
Yes, shims don’t communicate confidence!!
IF..... SC were to produce 14 a month - it would leave them about 2 years work, before the line ends. BA has produced 120 units of the 500 remaining in the backlog. Thats 280 to go. 14 a month is about 2 years work....
@@frankpinmtl 380 to go, not 280
I took a quick look at a discussion of 787 and A350 fuselages. Trying to present this without bias. I have never designed or built aircraft so this is all high level stuff. The airbus uses various parts called shims but they might be better called clips and load spreaders. The 787 in theory would need no shims if the parts could be manufactured to a tight enough tolerance. And it is tight. So a selection of shims is available to closely fill the gaps.
The airbus method advantage is that the worker grabs the part and installs it. The downside it there are a lot more parts to install.
The Boeing advantage is that there are significantly less parts and the fuselage sections are easier to transport. The downside is that the wrong shim can be used.
Boeing was considered an engineering company earlier, but after the change in management, it became a marketing-oriented company leading to the degradation of its engineering competence.
Utter nonsense.
@@athleticguy15 eh they definitely used to be more focused on their quality prior to the MD merger.
Like what BA are as well. That company is leading to the degradation of its engineering competence
@@athleticguy15 It’s not nonsense, it’s well documented fact, unfortunately.
@@AMCustomCoasters Not really. They could just get away with a lot because their US competition was just as shit and companies that did stuff properly (like Airbus) didn't exist yet or they were tiny and easy to overlook. The myth of 'good old company' is just that, a myth seen through rose glasses because it was much easier to hide stuff in the past. If MAX case happened in the 60s, Crasheing would just blame them on dumb [insert racist word] African pilots and the US press would just lap it right up...
Excellent description and video!!
Very good analysis and commentary. Thank you. I also complement you on your superb command of the English language.
Like pilots, you can't just hire a bunch of new inspectors - it takes time for them to get trained. So there will be a backlog for quite some time.
Funny enough training a pilot is much faster compared to any kind of inspector or technician in the aviation industrie.
Allowing Boeing employees to be responsible for the final inspection checks on behalf of the FAA was never a good idea and much like hiring the fox to guard the chickens.
I flew on EVA Air in 2019 from Seattle to Vietnam. The 787 was comfortable, quiet, roomy and well designed. Plenty of easily accessible restrooms. The flights were very smooth. I will be happy to fly on a 787 again.
A great review... Thanks so much for your contribution!
"The FAA have decided that they are going to put check the production quality of every single 787"
Wait, what were they doing before?
What they have been doing is letting Boeing choose their own* employee to "check" and approve these planes. ( Lots of Mayday videos involving crash investigation have mentioned how dubious all this is. Follow the money I guess?
@@gabx0729 It is kind of a natural progression if maybe a step too far. I have been asking if EASA is or has done this. So far no responses either way.
I've flown on the 787 and totally loved it! IT's a great plane and the windows are incredible in their functions and size.
In their functions? As in they were sufficiently transparent to allow light to pass through? Well I never!
Excellent analysis! Very interesting. Thank you.
We see many RUclips videos with headlines designed to collect collect clicks and little else. It’s good that Mentour had created a name such that the guarantee of ethical content and an honest and knowledgable appraisal of the subject is taken as read.
The A350 and the 787 looks so modern.
With over 3000hrs in the L seat I absolutely loved the 787. It had a few issues in the beginning but they seemed to sort them quickly. I didn't like it at high altitudes as it ran out of puff, but a nice machine. It was nice to descend over Turkey, ramp it up to .87 and overtake the slower aircraft ahead then pop up again to 38/390.
Do you prefer the 777 over the 787?
In the spring of 2017 I flew from LAX to Oslo first class in a Norwegian Airlines 787. The return was Stockholm to LAX. Despite the huge distances, they were the most pleasurable flights I've ever taken.
Hopefully that´s really the end of the trouble around the 787! Thank you very much for the again very informative video!🙂
Boeing has more employees doing post-production fixes than employees building the planes, like Chrysler in the 80s.
Not true.
…except that these fixes are for something that doesn't affect safety, or performance or maintenance, or… Remind me, the purpose of this effort to fix something that ain't broke and ain't gonna break is…?! Makes you wonder what the FAA's motive is, eh?
@@petep.2092 Maybe, after 737MAX, the FAA does not believe Boeing anymore, and suspects that maybe the fixes are needed because they DO affect safety.
@@oldcynic6964 It is up to the FAA to determine what affects safety. I think what the FAA is saying is that this is safe but we can make it better. One can make an airplane so safe it is too heavy to get off the ground. A line has to be drawn. Everything is a compromise between safety and weight and yes cost. All manufactures face this triangle.
"Boeing has more employees doing post-production fixes than employees building the planes,"
Yes, but are they actually fixing them? These aren't lawnmowers they are building...it's rocket science. As long as they do things by the book I'd be satisfied with that. I work on 787s and so far I have seen issues disappearing. We used to replace way more parts than we are now. The system is being fine tuned as far as I can see. So far there is more to like about the 787 than dislike. They went a little crazy with sealant though. Hey guys at Boeing???......are they paying you to apply sealant by the pound? Just saw an antenna glued on so hard it was practically welded to the fuselage. No point in that. It's unnecessary.
The carbon fiber fuselage requires lighting mesh where as aluminum fuselage planes don't need to have lightening mesh wrapped around them. Boeing’s latest 777 version has an an aluminum alloy fuselage (aluminium-lithium) "which is cheaper than carbon fiber and better than previous aluminum alloys. As a result, Al-Li alloy-intensive aircraft have better fuel efficiency and LOWER MAINTENANCE COSTS!!!" -- see: AI, Aluminium Insider, May 3, 2022. Aluminium-Lithium Alloys Fight Back. It may be carbon fiber airline fuselages are not the future for airliners.
Interesting! I’ll look into that
Indeed very interesting! Thank you very much!
Both have pros and cons, Moisture (condensation) affect aluminum, carbon is unaffected and does not need extra treatment. The lightening mesh is not wrapped around the carbon plane, it is an integral part of it, integrated during the lamination of the components, just one of the numerous ply that makes up the finale laminate . The carbon fiber fuselage ,skin and reinforcements, is also thinner for a few precious inches of interior space. Aging is also a concern with metal. Cost is coming down as automation is reaching a level never seen before. Material cost is a dead heat, both rising steadily. It is worth noting too, that Airbus stuck with aluminum or FML( Fiber Metal Laminate) for as long as they could but is starting to concede to composite construction. The A340 was I think the last full metallic design from them. The Boeing 767 is getting carbon wings so are other model. Sure aluminum producers are going to do and say whatever it takes to stay relevant. Steel producers have done the same thing against aluminum intrusion in the automotive industry and have ended up with thin cobalt steel alloys that cannot be welded, cannot be drilled, cannot be repaired. Carbon fiber continuous fiber can now be 3D printed as well as "forged" it is still evolving and next to the sporting industry aerospace including airliners is its biggest consumer and for a long time to come.
This is very interesting! One point I'd note is the fact that carbon fibre is carbon, and there's not going to be a shortage of it. Lithium, on the other hand... :)
Ypu manahed misspell lightning twice.
Thank you for clearly explaining Boeing787/FAA issues. Hey, FAA /Boeing relationship went through tough public relation issues …glad they are working it out.
a number of years back i flew a qantas 747-400 to australia. a week later they retired the 747 fleet and switched to the 787 that i flew back to america on. wow, what a difference. so smooth and quiet.
Enabling Boeing itself to certify and control its own aircraft was a horrific idea in the first place, leading to the 737max disaster and quality issues literally everywhere within Boeing. The way you put it is way too positive. Boeing abused the leeway and has proven that giving a manufacturer that always has incentives to cut corners and pushing this further is something that simply may not be done and they should never ever be given this level of authority back....
And who says they will get it back? I’m not saying to or from in this argument. I just liked the way there were forthcoming about the issue here.
@@MentourNow A Justice Department investigation of the 737 Max jet has widened to include a 787 factory in South Carolina where The New York Times found allegations of shoddy work and flawed quality control. June 28, 2019
@@MentourNow They really were not forthcoming
@@MentourNow I don't trust Boeing anymore
Very diplomatic compared to the whistle blower videos on 787 manufacturing issues. Boeing used to be a company run by engineers rather than bean counters. Love your channel.
I hope that Boeing returns to an engineering Super Star company. There aren't many of them out there that have the kind of capital to push aviation forward like Boeing does and they're integral to the advancement of the industry.
Thank you for posting all the great videos you've posted on your channel. Over the last 50 years the decision making structure of globalization of all industry has created a million new problems. Your video's are interesting informative .
I'm glad they found the problem and that they're working on it.
I'd much rather hear that than watch videos of planes that crash because problems were overlooked, ignored or missed completely
I've flown a couple times to Tokyo on Ana 787s and they are so smooth and quiet. Incredible plane, I salute Boeing for taking on the teething problems of introducing the first composite airliner to the Fear Aviation Authority.
I have flown on the 787 and it really is an awesome airplane. The airlines just need to give us non-wealthy passengers a little more seat and leg room. Because of the discomfort I really hate to fly long distances on any commercial airplane.
Sounds pretty not-so-awesome, based on what I've also read about the relative leg room compared to other models.
More people need to complain to the airline companies; they choose the seats and seat pitch and I agree, its terrible to be in coach.
Flew back to Washington/Dulles on a B-787 a few years ago. Glad I got that flight, instead of the United B-767 I was supposed to fly back on. Had flown over to Edinburgh, Scotland on one of the United flights in the latter, and it was not very comfortable. Because of problems with the intermediate carrier in Scotland, I was transferred to the United flight out of Heathrow, on that beautiful 787, with all that room, even though the plane was full.
Very beautiful aircraft.. enjoyed
I know it may be a bit boring. But do you have any videos as to how maintenance is done on these birds? I've always been amazed at all the literal moving parts of a plane, and maintaining and checking them must be a magnificently large process.
Congratulations Christopher, you are the only person I've ever seen ask about maintenance in my over 30 years in the trade. Not even the pilots are interested in the maintenance of the planes. I've never seen a pilot visit the maintenance hangar my entire time at the airline. Not once in 30 years.
One time I was standing near the inlet of the engine and the pilot was doing his walk around. He asked, "What's going on in here?" I started to answer and half way through the first sentence I turned to look at him and he was GONE. He couldn't have cared less what was going on in the inlet of his engine.
@@rael5469 I just can't imagine the amount of technology that goes into it. How do you even know where to begin! Haha
@@Hendrixphishinfloyd It's like eating an elephant......one bite at a time.