the Aircraft NO ONE Wanted! (But everyone copied)
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- Опубликовано: 3 июн 2023
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What do you think when you look at pictures of an old 707? It’s not as cool as a 747, or as iconic or graceful as the Concorde. It’s not as impressive as the Comet, even. What the Boeing 707 definitely IS, is… VERY familiar. Because, without question, this aircraft and the 367-80 that spawned it, literally defined the shape of jet-powered commercial aviation as we know it, to this day - starting 70 years ago. Stay tuned!
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
Sources
Sources
• Boeing 707 Jetliner Pr...
• Boeing 707 Prototype "...
• Seafair in 60 Seconds ...
• 1951 Seafair Hydroplan...
• Boeing 707 Barrel Roll... v
• American Airlines Anno...
• Boeing Employee Inspec...
• United Boeing 377 Stra...
• BD 0373 William Allen ...
• Boeing C-97 Stratofrei...
• 1952 USAF Film - The B...
• F-0064 The J-57 Afterb...
• United Douglas DC-6 Pr...
• CFM56: the world’s bes...
• BAHF Boeing C-97 Start...
• Look to Lockheed for L...
• Boeing KC-135A Stratot...
• Pan American Boeing 70... 
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Petter,
I’m curious, if no questions asked, would you perform a double barrel roll on the 737 that you fly?
Can I ask Aiden about the mental state of my pilot?
N-707PA (pictured in the video) sat for many years at Miami International's "Corrosion Corner", at the northwest corner of the field, before being scrapped.
What? It the flight was uneventful, without turbulences, I want my money back😄
Who invented the jet engine, Britain or Germany,? it's pretty controversial
Back when Boeing was run by engineers and not accountants
True so true
Same goes for airlines of the past - usually run by pilots, such as Pan Am's Juan Trippe or Australia's Ansett Airlines Reg Ansett, and a whole lot more. People at the helm of airlines and airline manufacturers who knew the industry and its problems all too well.
#facts 👏🏼
@@rainscratch Well part of the Airlines has to do with Unions and people wanting plane tickets to be cheap. We are getting what we pay for.
@@kimchi2780 Agree that is now a huge part of the equation.
De-regulation was a monster in disguise, that opened the way to the cost cutting and unchecked competition that brought about ridiculously cheap fares, and accountant based CEOs whose main role was to keep costs down and the business profitable.
The industry was very different in the eras we're discussing in this video.
The reminder of what Boeing used to be: An engineering-first company
Also, a company that was known for its design mantra: single point failures!
Boeing once had men like Bill Allen, Tex Johnston and Joe Sutter calling the shots and making big plays. But those swashbuckling days are a thing of the past. It's not just Boeing, either. Lots of institutions have lost their way.
@@fafner1 When was that? The reason that air travel safety has improved so dramatically over the past 60 years is because of all the redundancy Boeing and the other aircraft manufacturers have built into their designs. The 737 Max has three separate and independent computer systems. Of course, it's inexcusable for them to allow a the single point of failure to occur with the AOA sensor. But that was an anomaly -- not adherence to a mantra. The original and current design gets angle of attack information from two sensors, and the flight crews are notified if they disagree. Why they allowed for that single point of failure to happen is beyond me. Because that not part of modern aircraft design culture at Boeing or anywhere else.
@@paulglidden8893 While those were considerably more exciting times, without the success of the 747, Boeing might not have survived the adventure of trying to build the 2707.
Allen was an attorney.
Many years ago, I read that QANTAS was set to choose the Comet 4C. But De Havilland's position was, 'take it as is'. Boeing, on the other hand, was prepared to make a variation unique for QANTAS's requirements-reduced passenger capacity for more fuel capacity. QANTAS's 707 suffix was "38". This is why the 707-138 differed from other 707-100s. Likewise, the 707-338 was also unique. Loving the content.
I'm enjoying the content and the comments as well. This channel seems to attract a lot well informed viewers that are willing to share some interesting insights. Thank you for being one of them.
Yes and no. The official line was that DH were happy to make a Qantas variant but they would have to pay for said redesign. Boeing were willing to swallow the costs as long as they could market it to other airlines too, DH approached it as an exclusive design for Qantas. We know who got the order.
By the way the 707-138 is the one that John Travolta owned and flew for many years after repainting it in Qantas colors. He is currently in the process of donating his 707 to a museum in Australia.
@@tomlong8472 I hadn't heard that. Although as it turned out Boeing only made the thirteen 707-138's for Qantas and didn't make anything similar for any other airlines. Boeing was already planning the 707 intercontinental version which would use turbofan engines for longer range, but Qantas wanted something sooner so Boeing agreed to shorten the current 707 for them. Amazingly Boeing even made modifications to the plane for a specific airport that Qantas flew into. Qantas refueled in Fiji on their long flights, but the island had a short runway and high temperatures. Boeing modified the leading edge slats on the Qantas planes, and also worked with Pratt and Whitney to certify the engines to allow maximum thrust at the higher temperatures (no changes were made to the engine it was essentially a waiver just for Qantas).
@@StevePemberton2 I was very lucky in my Air cadet days that one of our “older” instructors was the nimrod mr2 project officer attached to Hawker Siddley and they’d inherited a lot of the comet production team, so he told us a lot of the old tales.
I've had the pleasure of sitting in the right seat of a 707 inflight. My father was in the Canadian military and was posted to Germany in 1986. Back then the rules were pretty lax. During our flight over I was allowed to visit the cockpit while the first officer was on a break. When I gestured to the empty seat the pilot shrugged and said go ahead, just don't touch anything. Had a great 10 minute talk with the captain (actually a colonel) about the plane, the systems and instruments. It's too bad kids of today can't have experiences like that.
@@Postler0815Could it be that we have become overly safety conscious?
@FlagstaffChief no one wants to see another 9/11 cockpit has to be secure. Shity but it is what it is....
Yeah I remember being on the flight deck of a 747 as a kid :/
I flew on a 720 back in 1969, got to sit in the jump seat behind behind the pilot for most of the flight. also solved a flight squawk wit atc by going down below in the equipment bay while flying, hatch in cockpit for access, pilot said don't touch anything, they had crossed connected the the one available system because the control module was move from the captains side to the first officers side, so the labels were wrong . the flight engineer said we don't fly this much so we leave the switches where they are. company plane on way back from NM FOR 747 TESTING
I remember going to the ATC tower and that was in 1999
The 707 is also the cause of the end of the ocean liners. While there had been transatlantic air travel, due to range issues at the time, aircraft generally had to refuel in Greenland. Combining that with the slow speeds of the time, made transatlantic air travel a two day uncomfortable expensive journey. The luxury liners of the day made the trip in five days, and were competitive to air. The 707's & DC8's changed that formula with 1 day travel time at prices lower than the ships.
Yes, travel by sea ended during a period of 24 months from 1963-65.
In 1963 most international travel was still by sea. By 1966, almost all international travel was by air.
Trips that previously took weeks, became trips taking just hours.
Departure frequency also changed, previously ships departed on a weekly basis, air travel departures became daily, even hourly
The 707 laid the foundation of how a jet liner should be build
And fun fact: the Avro Canada C102 was the first aircraft to be called a "Jetliner"... they coined the term. Sadly the plane itself never went into production.
The basic layout was layed by the B-47, which was no passenger aircraft but the key elements (thin, swept wings, podded engine, standard tail) were already used there. It was the first big aircraft which used this configuration. The Me 262 also had podded engines but the wing sweep was less and it was of course a much smaller aircraft
@@moi01887that was a lovely prototype.
I owe the B707-321C my life, it was only it's build quality and structural integrity that allowed myself and the rest of the crew to walk away from a total loss incident back in 1992. DAS AIR CARGO 5X-DAR. Great Channel and enjoying following these classic aircraft , thank you.
It was ex-Pan American? I'm impressed.
Fun fact: Tex Johnston was actually from Kansas. He was nicknamed "Tex", because he often wore cowboy boots & a cowboy hat.
Johnston
@sundar999 Thanks. I stand corrected & made the correction. I'd even looked him up to make sure I spelled it right, & I still typed it in wrong!
Isn't he the guy who flew through a nuclear test mushroom cloud with a swallowed radiation sensor and the string hanging out his mouth so he could cough it up after the flight? Those were crazy days.
@@sparky6086You had the "correct" way to pronounce the name the first time, so there's that ! Same with Johnstone. No need to delve into all the reasons that clan found the name confusion to be so helpful a very long time ago...
@@RCAvhstape That sounds so much like the El Macho death scene from Despicable Me 2
I don’t know what to say except that you managed to put forth the history of the iconic 707 in a way that was both engaging and fascinating.
Before the 747, the 707 was the iconic passenger jet. I know. I was there. We lived near one of the appraoches to SeaTac airport and I remember them very clearly. This was during the 1960s. I was also a passenger on several occasiions. Boeing's 1997 merger with MacDonald Douglass killed the company's spirit of engineering and innovation. I know. I was there. I was a tech writer on their 757 and 767 programs. Harry Stonecypher brought in his gang of MD bean-counter thugs and the Boeing engineers were shoved back into the broom closets. The 737 MAX fiasco can be traced back directly to this idiotic move on Boeing's part.
So what you're saying is, you know because you were there? 🤔 Interesting
@@majesticpbjcat7707 Yes. I grew up near SeaTac and worked for Boeing when it merged with MD.
@@jonthrelkeld2910 Its always bizarre when company A buys company B, then promptly installs all of the management from company B - the same ones who drove company B so far into the ground company A was able to buy them to start with.
@@MGower4465 That is exactly what happened with Boeing. Why they installled Stonecypher as the CEO is a mystery for the ages: his track record was littered with ruined companies including Sunstrand. Within days of his installation my entire department was moved from our individual, large, functional and comfortable engineering and drafting stations into a cramped suit of small admin cubicles each of which we had to share with another employee. I moved on to greener pastures a couple of years later.
@@jonthrelkeld2910 Boeing didn't merge with MD.
MD took over Boeing and let them just pay the bill.
Extreme Lobbying in D.C. to get planes in the air that are clearly not 100% ready for certification ?
-McDonell Douglas Style
Milking an already outdated airplane design with strange goofy ideas instead of designeing a new cleansheet airplane, which now causes the competition to get ahead even further. Just to save some money ?
(Like DC-10 into MD-11, DC-9 into MD-90...)
-McDonell Douglas Style
Ignoring safety hazards after a serious incident, near accident or accident even though your design is partially to blame. Refusing to accept the reality for the incident/crash and instead try to lobby your way out of fixing the problem until another plane crashes, Because fixing the problem might cost money and ignoring it is for free ?
(AA Flight 96 & THY flight 981)
-McDonell Douglas Style
Beeing more interested in short term stock prices instead of the companies long term survival ?
-McDonell Douglas Style
Abominating your now totally outdated airplane design, so that you can milk it even further, by trying to beat physics which now causes the airplane to need even computer systems to fix the worst stuff you did to the design and causes the airplane to become more difficult to control ?
(DC-10 when it was just redesigned as the MD-11 with it's now tiny, tiny stabilizer, so that the MD-11 has to land extremely fast and is prone to crashing and flipping on its back if you make just one mistake as a pilot)
-McDonell Douglas Style
Treat your engineers as idiots who don't know nothing about running an airplane manufacturer,
Because Airplane manufacturers are not there to design good airplanes, they are just there to create a large revenue as fast as possible, as often as possible and without any questions asked by seeling a product. In that case the product is airplanes just by coincidence. And make sure to tell every engineer that 'Return on invest' is the most important thing, not the damn airplanes ?
-McDonell Douglas Style
Convince yourself that everything will get even better if you just change your whole product family now to only updates from your already existing designs so that you can fire even more expensive engineers needed to design cleansheet airplanes, since you have decided you will use your old design basically for ever ?
(In the end MD-80 and MD-11, was everything that was left to produce. Basically just a modern DC-10 and DC-9...)
-McDonell Douglas Style
Boeing's current company logo ?
-McDonell Douglas Style
(Yeah it IS just the old McDonnell Douglas logo, just slightly changed)
Yepp, McDonnell Douglas didn't merge. They just took over....
😂😂😂
That barrel roll stunt was actually recreated by a Lufthansa crew during a training flight in a Boeing 720 in 1964. They managed to fly one barrel roll and tried to do a second one. During execution of the second roll they apparently lost control and overstressed the structure. The airplane disintegrated in 4000ft altitude and crashed into a forest (which was pretty lucky, the crash area was in a pretty densely populated area, not far from where I live today) killing all three crew members.
Yikes 😢
Indeed.
Sad
Correct performed, a barrel roll is a simple maneuver that doesn't stress the aircraft. That doesn't mean it is easy to perform correctly.
D-ABOP. Such stunts should only be done by test pilots, airline pilots are no test pilots
It's still a very familiar sight over here, as I live near Geilenkirchen Awacs base on the German/Dutch border. The E-3 sentry is based on the 707.
The noise is just overwhelming, but in a very nice way.
Awesome!
Barrel rolls! Just what everyone wants their airliner to do... NOT!
Hope the fuhrer is well
Also the kc135's with the JT3 engines are also still flying and smoking.
The first gen is replaced by the upcoming Airbus 330 tanker soon.
The kc135's and E-3's ( those who broke the smoking habits ) had already a CFM engines refit in the late 80's and are getting a modern cockpit refit !
We will see them for years to come
@@MentourNow The 707s and DC8s on takeoff still rattled the dishes in my kitchen cupboards even back in the mid 1970s. Perhaps they were Whisper Jets while sitting inside them. lol
19:35 You say that like a two hour long video on the history of a particular airliner would be a bad thing lol.
That’s true.. 😂
It just doesn’t work on RUclips
No one who is knowledgeable about airplanes and aerobatics would question the statement regarding a barrel-roll being a perfectly safe maneuver in practically any aircraft, assuming a competent pilot, of course. It is a one-G maneuver. There is absolutely no more stress on the airframe than flying straight and level. It is an easy maneuver to screw up however. Tex was a very capable pilot. No worries there.
My mom was at sea fair when Tex made that flight. I’m not sure if my oldest brother was there with her (he was 3) but he was a mechanic on the team that recovered the -80 from desert storage. I have a magazine with a photo of the full team on the cover. It was full of snakes that took up residence in the sand used for ballast.
@Bonkers974 he was many years later with the team that recovered the aircraft from storage.
Petter, I’m amazed how you can keep producing this high quality content on YT and at the same time work as a full time airline pilot, run a website, produce your own app, merch, etc. AND be involved in a pilot/instructor training program (if I’m not mistaken). We truly appreciate your dedication and super human powers. That 2nd honeymoon was definitely well deserved, hope you enjoyed it to the fullest.
Cheers from Australia
that's because he has a team handling most of it all for him.
I WOULD LOVE to see more about the 707s history. If its 2hrs long I'd still watch 😍👌🏾
The "dash eighty" was a company project and was built in a corner of the Renton plant, about one mile from where i'm sitting now. Over to the west about another mile are the hydro pits where the "dash eighty" made its famous barrel roll.
The 707 is fascinsting, as is also became the VC-137 "Air Force One." Some of today's 737 are like twin-engine 707s, almost comparable in size, range, capacity, and the same cockpit windows.
Yep, the 737 is basically another derivative, coming out of the 707 and so is the 727.
i would consider 5 Boeing jetliners to be derivatives of the original Dash80 - B707/B720, C135/KC135 (which for a time was internally documented as B717), B727, B737, and B757.
The great Renton Fuselage factory the 707/27/37/57 used the same fuselage frames(barrels).
@@KnightRanger38
Not just internally. The builder's data plate identifies C-135s as Model 717.
- De Havilland " Comet ".
- Boeing 707
- Sud Aviation "Caravelle"
- Douglas DC 8
- Vickers VC - 10.
Any Professional Airline Pilot should know these Iconic early Jets !
Thanks Captain for Sharing our Passion for the Most Beautiful Profession in the World .
B 707 F/O , trained at Pan Am Academy , Miami, 1990.
The 707 was probably the first commercial aircraft I was exposed to as a kid living on Long Island in New York. My father worked at JFK for Pan American as an A&P mechanic.
One day I was around eight years old -- maybe in 1971 -- when he took me to JFK at night to show me where he worked. One of the jets (forgot which, maybe a 747) had a shaft with a ladder under the jump seat that let you enter the cockpit from the ground. My Dad couldn't fly -- he was blind in one eye -- but mechanics can still taxi the planes around to wherever they're needed, and he drove the plane from one part of the airport to another (details long forgotten) while I sat in the jump seat.
Dad told me a story of the day (a few years before he worked there) Pan Am got their first 707 at Idlewild Airport (later renamed JFK), they were impressed with the plane. Some of the mechanics were in the plane checking it out, and they taxied it around a bit to get a feel for it. One of the mechanics said, "Hey, let's run these babies [the engines] up to full power." Everyone liked that idea so they parked the plane away from the hangar -- probably on an unused stretch of taxiway -- set the wheel brakes, and brought all four Pratt & Whitneys up to full power for about a minute, then reduced power and taxied back to the hangar.
But later they discovered that the plane's RPM gauges hadn't yet been calibrated, and when they did the math they realized they had run up the engines far beyond their "never exceed" design limits, essentially destroying all four engines. They solved the problem by calling Boeing, saying, "Hey the engines [JT4A's?] on this new 707 you sent us are all worn out, send us four new ones!" I don't believe the mechanics ever caught Hell for destroying four brand new engines.
"...and it did that 70 years ago". Wow, that makes me feel old! I grew up in a house 2 miles from the threshold of one of the 3 runways at O'Hare Airport at the time, and right under the glidepath. We were "distinctly aware" of when 707s and DC-8s came into use!
I lived on Canfield, ( chicago, park ridge border. )2 blocks from the expressway in 67 and 68. Watched hours of c141s bring in the 82nd airborne. Ag. 68
Great Video! I was "weened" on the B707/720. Flew as a Flight Engineer, First Officer and received my first command as Captain on the airplane in 1984, I was 28 years old. Strong, sturdy, manual cables to controls, dutch-roll practice for recovery easy once you learn HOW to recover. I flew the 720 model with JT3's "straight-pipes (No fan section in front). I never flew the 707-138, but sat in one once. If I recall, the 138B was a 707-120, which of course was shorter, but I believe it had a 707-300 wing. For those who remember the FIRST "Airport" movie with Burt Landcaster and Dean Martin, that was a Flying Tiger 707 that later was sold going through a number of carriers until TransBrazil purchased it as a cargo airplane. It crashed March 21, 1989 short of the runway in Sao Paulo killing all. It was a great airplane to fly... days gone by. Thanks for the video and thanks for the memories.
Well done research and presentation. Thank you for getting the role of the KC-135 correct in the development of the 707; many fail to recognize this. According to Wikipedia, a remarkable 388 of the KC-135 aircraft are still flying, mostly as the KC-135R, re-engined with 737 engines. Use of the 737 engines finally gives the KC135R the thrust it needs. The original engines actually had to add water injection during take-off, increasing the mass flow and thus thrust, to get airborne with a full military load, from even 12,000 ft runways common at SAC bases. The exhausts were painfully loud.
My first flight was in a British Caledonian 707 in 1971 from Gatwick to Toronto. I still see many variants of the 707 today living on the flight approach to RAF Mildenhall in Suffolk.
In a beauty competition I consider the 707 is runner up to the VC10, but as it has proven, practicality is more important.
The 707 was also used as Air Force One (VC-137) for many years into the early 90s, which made it remain a very public symbol well after commercial jetliner sales of it had ended. The KC-135 Stratotanker, the E-3 Sentry, and a few other military variants have stayed in service a very long time as well. It's hard to keep track of all the members of the 707 family.
The the latter of the two planes was retired in 2001. I recall Clinton using it when he went to an airfield that could it support the larger 747.
The last time I was at Seattle's Museum of Flight Sam 970, one of the VC-135s, was on loan from the Air Force Museum and available for a walk-through.
@@shorttimer874 137, actually. It might be the one that's at the USAF Museum in Dayton, where I saw it a few months ago and got to walk through it.
@@shorttimer874: Make that Special Air Mission ("SAM") 970: VC-137B.
Please confirm the Boeing 707-323b was even bigger and heavier than a 767-200.
One more thing about the 707: That sucker was LOUD in the days before high-bypass engines. I used to watch them from the observation deck (remember those?) at SFO.
Early versions had exhaust pipes on the back but they didn't help much. You can see them at 20:32 and a brief closer look at 18:29. And a good view of the exhaust pipes on a DC-8 at 19:09
Having a memory that goes way back into the 60s I remember the 707 as iconic and on equal footing with the 747. The Concord is in a class of its own.
I live about 20 minutes from the Udvar Hazey A&S annex. If you're ever in the DC area its a must visit. Theres an SR 71 and the Discovery space shuttle. If you want just a lot of planes without all the campiness of single focus exhibits, its the place for you. Its also great for kids because its a wide open area and only takes about 90 minutes to really see everything. And the best part is its free (aside from parking, but still cheaper and more available than in DC proper).
I think Boeing's decision to go with pod-mounted engines also had the advantage that the plane's design could adopt other engine models. Note that the 707 airframe went from using the JT3C (J57) all the way to the CFM56 engine used on some military 707 variants.
Especially so with the 737, whose engines were designed to be close to the ground for easy servicing.
@@smwca123 Not the wisest of choices even at that time as it made the engines more susceptible to FOD. And it led to other problems when larger engines were needed.
Putting engines in wing pods rather than the tail has both advantages and disadvantages. But one of the big advantages is the lower risk of critical damage to control surfaces if you get an uncontained engine failure, which with those early turbojets was more of a worry than it would be today.
With a pair of good binoculars, B-707’s can be seen still flying over our heads. They are painted all white, no cabin windows. They leave a contrail that slowly over time dissipates into a thin layer of white.
Boeing initially called it the 367-80 to cover up the fact they were building a new aircraft. The Dash 80 made it sound like they were upgrading an existing aircraft.
707 This was the first aircraft I flew on as a passenger. National Airlines.
Awesome
The earliest plane flight I actually remember, when I was about 4, was on a 707--a flight from Cleveland to Washington, DC (National, I think) to look for a house in the DC area when my father's job had been transferred there. It was horribly unpleasant: I had a raging ear infection, one of many I got through my early childhood, and airliner cabin pressurization in those days was not quite as high as it is on, say, the Dreamliner. I must have been hell on my parents, complaining the whole way. But that made it memorable, too. My baby sister, amazingly, slept the whole way.
National borrowed a Pan American 707.
Another fun fact, When Boeing rolled out the last 707 airframe, Tex Johnston was in the FO seat. When the tug tried to pull it out of the hanger it wouldn't budge, Tex forgot how to release the parking brake. I remember that day well and the day they rolled out the last 727, worked on both.
I always found and still find the Boeing 707 very elegant and well balanced, and the cockpit is truly iconic and beautiful. For me the Boeing 707 is the archetype of all Boeings and modern jets. I am glad that that cockpit-design is still used on the Boeing 737, though without the eyebrows, the windows at the height...
Egarly awaiting the 2 hour version of this video. Thank you Petter, great content as always 👍
Yeah, I'd absolutely watch that.
I'm just wondering what the reaction would be these days if Petter did a barrel roll and told his boss" I'm promoting the Airline "
They would NOT be pleased 😂
@@MentourNow I can imagine how displeased they might be.... and I don't want to go there!
@@MentourNow The passengers would need to be pre-warned, 'Sorry no Drink or Meal service during the Roll'
Airline: We're demoting you!
Time for a job search, likely.
To me the 707 just makes me think of a KC-135 that’s missing it’s fuel probe. ⛽️
As an American Airline “ brat” I really love all your videos! Not only educational, and entertaining but just so extremely well done! Always look forward to them!
Have a fantastic day! ✈️🇮🇪
Excellent video. Brought back many memories from decades ago. I was trained and worked as an engine technician in the USAF, working on B-52 and KC 135 at an air force base in central Florida (Mc Coy AFB, now Orlando International airport) during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and later, during the VN war, at Kadena AFB in Okinawa. Many years later, I worked for Pan Am and followed with American Airlines, when they acquired the B 747 and DC 10. Thanks for the very-informative review and history. It brought tears to my eyes remembering my younger years.
Thanks for your Service Sir .
I used to fly to Naha Airport Okinawa, from Macau .
Didn't have any idea Orlando was a former Air Force Base.
Take Good care of U !
@@giancarlogarlaschi4388 Thank you!
Loved flying on 707 with both turbofan and turbojet variants as a passenger. The engines were much louder then and even inside the cabin you had a much rawer feeling of flying. Loved it.
The 707 might also be the first airliner namedropped in a popular song (Gordon Lightfoot's "Early Morning Rain").
Though I still think of the Steve Miller Band's "Jet Airliner".
Out on runway #9….big 707 set to go. Love Gordon Lightfoot RIP
Flew on a KC135 a few years ago on a refueling mission to a B52. 2 great classics. For our local refueling wing, they still fly the KC135
My family usually attended SeaFair events, especially the Hydro Races, but that year we stayed home for some reason, and I had to watch the Barrel Roll on TV. Bummer!!
Another issue with the C-97, KC-97, and the commercial variant is that the R-4360 engine (71.48L) was a 4 row, 28 cylinder engine and was a maintenance nightmare (to put it politely) this caused fires aboard B-36s and other airplanes that used it, and some pilots flying 4 engine aircraft that had this engine on long flights referred to their planes as 3 engines since you were likely to loose an engine during the flight!
The fact that the barrel roll manoeuvre as done by Tex is a constant 1G manoeuvre is not up for debate. It was. 1G barrel rolls by Tex have been demonstrated and documented multiple times including placing a cup of water under the window in the cockpit of multiple types. Whether people *feel* this is safe or not, and that there is sufficient airspace/altitude clearance is another matter, but in principle the manoeuvre is completely safe
It's doable even in rollercoaster. It's more akin to "Zero G roll" rather than "barrel roll" that you need to go upward first, barrel roll, and naturally it goes down.
The fascinating thing about it is he can hold those exactly 1G (not 2, not 0, just one) by predicting the trajectory needed proved he knew shit better than most airliner pilot. Heck, it's also hard to do in rollercoaster that focused on geometry-based shaping (rather than G-force based shaping)
Pooring tea - as the do in this old movie
ruclips.net/video/W2-9BL7sllk/видео.html
I expect it would mess up any systems that required the ground to be below the plane, not sure what the dash 80 had or his altitude at the time but nowadays the radio altimeter at the very least would undoubtedly cause some trouble if it were in use.
Well, it is not up for debate, because you cannot do either the entry or the exit without pulling 1.5 - 2G, and for a nicely-shaped one, the load factor will be less than one (but not negative) as you go over the top. It is a _positive-G_ maneuver, which is what Bob Hoover is demonstrating in that remarkable video.
The takeaway here is that, when flown correctly, the load factors are safely within the limits required for transport aircraft (if you screw up, of course, things get complicated, fast.)
@@ajayray4408 I rather concern with asymmetric load from spinning than the vertical G-force itself
It's doable under 2G in theory, many of Rollercoaster can achieve that kind of "zero-g roll" only by predicting the shape of maneuver. Granted it was 707, but still could do
I grew up in the DC area, and the Air and Space Museum at Dulles was kind of part of my childhood! Every single time you go through the entrance way and see the 707 prototype next to the Air France Concorde.... I get chills just thinking about it!
One thing you might not have realised about the Dash-80 is that, despite having first flown almost 69 years ago, it is an almost brand-new aircraft. This is because although it was operated initially as the prototype of the 707 and the KC-135, and was later used as a flying test-bed, through all the years of usage up until it was finally retired, it only accumulated less than 2,400 flying hours. Any new airliner in line service would accumulate similar hours in about 8 months.
I’m happy be able to say that I flew on Panam 707s several times when I was a child. I remember the lidless overhead trays which were only meant for people to place very small bags or pieces of clothing. It had a certain rustic side to it when compared to today’s airliners, but it was a beautiful machine and none more so than in the Panam livery.
Hat racks!
Dear friends at MentourPïlot, dear Petter, thankyou for all the fascinating stories and films. You do many great services to everyone interested in aircraft in flying, for whatever reason, and perhaps particularly those of us who don't know so much about aviation, even if wehafe often travelled by plane.
As feedback offered in friendship, I cannot watch films or conversational presentations with music in the background. It's a subliminal soundtrack which for a number of reasons I do not partake of.
Best to everyone in the Mentour community.
Best from Brussels,
John
A true classic. One of the most underrated airlines in the looks department, especially in Pan Am blue.
When you think about the fact the 707 was in production longef then the 727 is mind blowing meaning the youngest 707 is on 32 years old....
The Boeing 707 is and probably always will be the most beautiful jet airliner ever built. IMO. When the 747 came out I thought maybe it surpassed the 707, but then I saw another 707 and I said "Nah".
The Arado 234 Blitz had 2x BMW jet engines in pods in WW2, the Ar 234 was the fastest jet bomber of WW2 it was 90 MPH faster than P51-D!
Cool
The Me262 had the same BMW engines. I was looking at one last week at the RAF Museum Midlands, talking with the staff. If Hitler had just allowed the engineers to get on with it, the 262 would have been fighting the Spitfire in the Battle of Britain and BMW probably would have built the engines with chromium as they would have had access to it back then. Britain would have been in more trouble and probably wouldn't have won the air war. We would have at least been out of WW2 if not invaded. Japan and the Axis Powers would have had a free hand. The Soviet Union would have been overrun, there would have been no Artic convoys of weapons. When Japan chose to attack the US there would have been nobody else left fighting. America would have faced Japan in the Pacific and Germany in the Atlantic, the Turpitz could have stood off New York and shelled Manhatton and the docks, by the time fighters and bombers got out there it would be gone.
The US would not have had RADAR, Jet Engines or the scientists and engineers who would have built the bomb.
Another fantastic video Petter! I think a big reason Boeing almost knew they could safely take the risk and make the -80 is the sheer amount of contracts and work they did with the military in World war 2. I would love to see a video on the DC-3! I love piston driven aircraft, especially from WW2. It's crazy to see some of the planes that came out of WW2 from the allies. The engines alone like the Pratt and Whitney R2800 double wasp were engineering marvels at the time.
I have flown on many of the classic airliners, DC-6, DC-7, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, 707, 727, 737, 747. etc, but the very best and comfortable airliner of all , IMHO, was the L-1011 Tristar. Hands down.
Before the 707, Boeing developed the B-47….that was the true forerunner of jet passenger design……thin, flexible wings, engines in pods, swept wings, slim fuselage.
Love your videos, man! Best aeronautical channel on RUclips! Cheers from Brazil! 🇧🇷
Thank you so much!
You can still fly "in" a 707 today, whenever you get into a 737 you are stepping into a fuselage that has the same cross section as the 707!
My father worked government security, and our family were at cape Kennedy for every launch my dad had to be there for. So I remember walking up to our seats for years flying DC-3 planes , I loved the sound of the engines and props. Eventually as I got older we started flying 707's and later 727's . Well back then I got tours and wings from the pilots and was allowed many times to fly on the jumpseat in the cockpit. I was quiet and respectful and welcomed back.
So thanks petter , your dc3 and 707 videos bring back my youth. Now I fly myself and 30 years ago bought my first rg complex twin. I now am retired and still love to fly. Once a pilot always a pilot. Thanks
You are without a doubt, the winner of aviation information on RUclips!!!!!!!!!
A major factor for the Dash-8's development was USAF's request for an aerial tanker that could refuel the B-52 at its operational speed and altitude. Earlier experience with refueling the B-47 from the KC-97 required it to drop its altitude to around 20k feet and slow down nearly to stall speed.This made both more vulnerable to attack and produced handling problems with the B-47.
Such interesting stuff, done with excellence as always. It’s interesting to note how revolutionary the 707 was in its day. My mother flew out to LA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. There’s a pic of her standing in front of the plane, and it was a large prop plane of some sort (she didn’t date the picture, and there’s not enough of the plane to tell exactly what it is), so obviously props were still a big thing at that time. That innovation is what made Boeing such a success. It’s a shame they got away from their roots, because we saw so many innovations from them back in the old days.
Very true!
@@MentourNow I've heard it said that Boeing's deterioration of management culture stems from the McDonnell Douglas acquisition when some their management practices (and MD managers) were adopted by Boeing. I have no idea wether this in fact is true, but it's clear that the last 15 years of Boeing's history includes an inordinate number of very significant problems (e.g. issues with the 787 design and production, the 737 Max design, the SLS rocket delays and cost overruns, and most recently the Starliner spacecraft design/delays). While corporate management practices is not the main focus of this channel, it would nonetheless be quite interesting for the channel to do a deep dive on the history of what's happened at Boeing and try to identify potential causes as well potential fixes going forward.
@@joakimlindblom8256 Boeing's problems may have started earlier during the 777 development in the early 1990's when the program manager Alan Mulally began the policy of outsourcing certain systems for overseas manufacture, loosening Boeing's control over the process. This was intensified in the subsequent 787 project; an entire issue of a business publication ( I believe it was Bloomberg Business Week) was devoted to how the company would produce the carbon-fiber composite fuselage in China and have the flight controls and avionics designed and built in India.
Thank you for the presentation on 707. Excellent.
I read that after Pan Am's order of 20 707s (and 25 DC-8s on the same day), Boeing was stunned. Pan Am said Douglas was making a truly long range aircraft compared to 707. United chose Douglas for its 6 abreast economy arrangement. Boeing for cost purposes declined to make cabin wider than KC-135. When American American Air decided to walk away from Boeing, Boeing agreed to make cabin wider. Longer range requirement made Boeing to redesign wing for "707-320 Intercontinental". This was superior to DC-8-30 and the rest of success story followed.
Btw, does anyone has any comparison data of operating costs for 707, DC-8, VC 10, DH Comet 4, and Convair 880/990 aircraft? Heard that 707 was the most economical of this first generation lot but don't know how much. I would like to request such avideo on this topic. Thank You.
One of the stories I remember reading was that the cockpit on the Dash-80 was so well laid out, that while the fuselage of the future planes, the KC-135, E-6, and 707 were wider, it remained the original size. That same cockpit module was used for the 727 and the 737, and is why they 737 noticeably narrows at the front of the plane, to accommodate the 14+ inches of shrinkage required to mate the cockpit to the fuselage.
Boeing used that knowledge to use the a new common cockpit and forward fames for the 757 and 767 which are markedly different in diameter.
Let's not forget that the "Dash 80" was not so much a 707 prototype as it was the prototype of the KC 135 fuel tanker.
Yes, they were thinking about jet airliners at the time, but first on the priority list was the military contracts as they were money in the bank.
I've seen the Dash 80...and I knew it's importance. I became a fan of the B-707 after watching the 1970 movie AIRPORT. That movie is a love story for the 707.
It is interesting seeing the prescience that Boeing engineers had with longevity of their design and that the Air Force would come to save the day. Seeing the versatility of the 707, KC-135, and various reconnaissance and C4I versions is something that I’m sure Boeing didn’t foresee. Same could be said for the Comet and it’s ongoing legacy to the HS Nimrod.
Lockheed even got their comeuppance with the C-130, and C-5 ensuring solvency for that company as well. The Air Force always seemed to have room for everyone. As for the above mentioned air frames. They don’t build them like they used to. On a final note, the 707 just looked damn sleek and sexy compared to the competition of the time.
Cheers!
The Dash 80 was also the prototype for the C-135 family of aircraft, the most successful variant of which is the KC-135 Stratotanker. Despite the similar appearance of the 707 and C-135's, the C-135's (Boeing internal product code-Model 717) had a narrower fuselage than the 707. Military 707's had the USAF designation of C-137, most famous as the VC-137's (the United States' presidential transports until midway through Bill Clinton's presidency). P.S. I just drove by Boeing Field this evening on the way to the hotel room where I'm writing this (work trip in Washington state) 😊 The Museum of Flight at Boeing Field is another good place for an aviation enthusiast to hang out. If you have a private aircraft, you can land at Boeing Field and taxi right up to the Museum of Flight ramp.
Other C-135's still flying today are:
RC-135 (Reconnaissance)
WC-135 (Atmospheric nuclear testing)
C-135 (Cargo). Oddly even though the C-135 was built later and based on the KC-135, the family name is C-135 so the KC-135 is considered a C-135 variant.
C-137's still flying today are:
E-6 Mercury (airborne command post)
E-3 Sentry AWACS (air-to-air surveillance
E-8 Joint STARS air-to-ground surveillance
Also a private company Omega Aerial Refueling has modified a couple of 707-300's and converted them into KC-707 aerial tankers and operates them under contract to the Air Force.
FYI maybe you know this but the original Air Force One VC-137A was based on the 707-120 and used by Eisenhower and Kennedy. The VC-137B that first flew during Kennedy's last year in office (and the one that he flew to Dallas) was based on the 707-320 intercontinental. The VC-137B's were used only through Reagan, the VC-25 747's went into service with George H.W. Bush. However Bill Clinton did fly on a VC-137B once when his 747 got stuck in the mud.
"I can't talk about all the variants because the video would be 2hrs long".
I'm really not seeing a problem here 😂
Actually, when I think of the 707, I think of how weird it seems for the 737-900 twin engine to be bigger than the quad engine 707.
Also crazy how much more powerful the NG's engines are than those old P&Ws.
I love this series! Pls keep doing it!
I think for any aviation enthusiast this is just eye candy to see all these historical and iconic aircaft!
Also pls do cover some military aircraft as well, there are some truly iconic and beautiful aircraft that came out of ww2 and after and i would love to see you cover some of those!
Your explanation of Tex Johnson's roll of the 380 and his meeting with Bill Boeing the next day was perfectly accurate. Well done, as usual. Bill's big point to Tex was that the Dash 80 was the only prototype they had and was funded by company money. And Bill just said to don't do it again, and that was the end of the deal.
When i was 8 i flew on a Boeing Qantas 707 V-Jet back in december 1969,i flew from Christchurch in New Zealand to Sydney Australia.,the flight took around 3 hours.The food on Qantas back then ,mind you.,was very good
This channel is the epitomy of quality content!
I love the 707, I got to see the Dash 80 in person a few years ago and it was so special to see where it all began.
My very first flying experience was on a 707. @ 1969.
I was 10 years old, flying from Jo'burg to Perth. I was so amazed to be "flying". We had a short stop at Mauritius where my family exited the plane to the terminal for tea, but I wanted to remain on board because I was so fascinated by the airplane. In those days staying onboard during stopovers was completely normal. I helped the cabin crew sort out things as best I could (most probably a hinderance in hindsight). My family rejoined, and we flew onward to Perth. On disembarkation at Perth they had those steps that they push up to the side of the plane when we arrived. When I descended the stairs with my family, I clung onto the side of the plane for dear life. I didnt want to leave it. I loved it so much. I loved it so much. I remember it to this day. The pilot came down the stairs and comforted me. Said you can learn to fly this one day. I remember his words. But I never learned to fly.
Flew in the 707 on Olympic Airways in the late 60s and early 70s from Johannesburg to Athens. What a beautiful aircraft especially in the Olympic colours. .
Only ever flew on a 707 once in the mid eighties. British Airways had to put it on at the last minute for some reason.
Which would not have been so bad except that I was flying from Hong Kong to the UK , stopping twice in Japan and once in Alaska.
God but it was a long, uncomfortable and very very NOISY flight. It took me four days to recover my sense of balance such that I could walk properly.
It was an experience, I'll grant you that.
I also flew on a 707 once in the 1980s. Thankfully, it was a short flight (about 250 miles). The plane seemed to be on its last legs 😅
Did it have the movie system where the physical film went from the front of the plane to the back? On the one round trip I took on the 707, I could watch the second screen in front of me, and a few seconds later, my screen would show that image. The sound was synchronized with my screen.
@@johnhaller5851 Movie system? Movie system!
I've just checked and discovered that British Airways retired a lot of aircraft types in 1981 so I must have been on one of the very last flights on whuch they operated the type. That makes sense as I was still at boarding school at the time, which was the reason for the flight back to the UK.
I do recall the aircraft looked completely knackered, was very cramped and noisy and offered an experience I would not want to repeat any time in this lifetime.
I also remember it wasn't the scheduled aircrfat (which should have been a 747 as per usual) and it was very much a last minute substitution. It shouldn't have been within half a planet of Kai Tak.
Great video. I've seen very many videos on the 707, but this one is the best I've watched so far. Very comprehensive but not too long. Congratulations!
For a plane that no one wanted they sure did manage to be the most popular long range airliner built in the 60's
The Vickers VC-10 was a far more pleasant aircraft to fly as a passenger. But the 707 was also fun. And before anyone asks - Qantas, BOAC, MSA, MAS and TAP 707s have been flown. Still , the VC-10 was a touch better and the climb outs and those rear-mounted Conways...glorious.
Great summary of the history of the 707. Actually a 707 was the first plane I saw as a kid and still remember although it was phased out and just a display unit.
Thank you for featuring the Boeing 707. I was born in 1953 and flew for the first time in 1972 after being drafted into the army. Our family didn't have TV or radio but got newspaper. I remember a lot of discussions about the 707 (and the B52). I think it was more about the wonders of the plane. So it's interesting to see that it wasn't a desired plane.
Steve Miller band - Jet Airliner - " get on the 707"My first flight as a 5 year old kid in 1969was on a QANTAS 707 from Melbourne to Nadi Fiji. Then a year or so later, we flew Nadi - New Zealand on a PAN AM 707.
This (barrel role) was part of Qantas' training program for all 707 pilots in the 60's - my father flew 707's for QF
I love your approach to these historical retrospectives. Boeing a great American tragedy - to go from revolutionizing air travel to Max and Spaceliner fiascos is just so so sad.
You might notice two unpainted 'ventral' fins on photos of early 707s - these increase the yaw damping and came about as a retrofitted mod devised by Australian aeronautical engineer Ken O;Brien . They appear briefly @ around 21 mins on this video - I was told the background story by a retired Boeing (ex Douglas/Mc D ) engineer John Hart-Smith -famous for his structural design work , later the vertical fin was increased . The ventral fins are under the tailplane .
I'm not sure but I think the taller vertical fin and the ventral fin were both incorporated into the early design, then later they were able to remove the ventral fin but they kept the vertical fin the same size.
Dad mentioned the difference between the 'early' and 'late' KC-135A with the taller tail improving longitudinal stability. As a young captain, he was one of the first three officers to arrive at Ellsworth AFB (from KC-97s at Mountain Home) in 1959 to stand up the 28th Air Refueling Squadron (928th, but they were assigned a larger number of airplanes so dropped the first digit). I'm glad he served in 135s from the time they were picking them up brand new from Boeing at Larson AFB, Moses Lake WA and flying them home. Before his passing, I talked with him about the squadron's KC-135 crash that was the worst aviation accident in Spokane's history, and other events in his AF career.
From KCOE, a volunteer with the open house events 2012-2017. (Enjoy seeing the restorations flying from Pemberton & Sons out of KSFF...)
Hey Petter, I saw, met, and talked with another passenger at DFW last week and he was wearing one of you “INOP” shirts! It was nice to see another fan!
Wow! That’s awesome! You have to take a selfie when that happens, post it to Twitter/x and tag me!
I have very fond memories of flying on the 707 on a trip to Hawaii in 1965. Previously, in 1959 as a 4 year old I flew on a DC-7, a noisy propeller aircraft that took nearly twice as long to complete the same flight. Ear popping, bumpy ride and much of the noise was alleviated with the 707. United Airlines had a lounge in front of the 707 when I got special treatment sitting with my family at a table the whole trip, eating fresh pineapple and drinking Shirley Temples.
your videos keep getting better! me being an aspiring pilot its very interesting
watching these videos
I love this series! I dont know if it gets the same number of views as your other videos, but I really hope you continue with it! I saw the -80 at the Air and Space musuem in Virginia, and the plane looks amazing. That musuem also has an Air France Concorde, as well as a Lockheed Constelation.
Before it was even possible for Boeing to sell the 707 the US Air Force ordered 29 ( $150 million ) + 88 KC-135 ($250 million). After that orders Boeing received the clearance by the Air Force to sell the aircraft to commercial airline on July, 13th 1955.
Air Force general Curtis E. LeMay was a Boeing fan just as Darleen Druyun. Not in the same way but he wanted a fast tanker ASAP.
Fun fact: 737 inherited her fuselage cross section from the 707.
1983 Hong Kong Kai Tak to Beijing CAAC 707 - unforgettable
Hi, Mentour! Great show! You should consider doing a whole series on the jets of the past. Ya know, like all the Boing 7?7's, the Douglas's, the Lockheeds and the Airbus's...I guess. lol. I think that would be super interesting and great content (even if you may have covered some of them) They all deserve their own episodes! Thanks for the awesome intel!
IMHO, the 707/KC135 are the most beautiful planes ever built. There is just something about the lines and proportions that just "work".
In 1949 Bill Allen attended the Farnborough Air Show where De Havilland showed off the Comet for the first time. One of the Boeing engineers upon watching it fly asked Bill if he thought if "we could build our own jet?" And it is said Bill Allen told him "yes we can, and we can build one much better too." And in the end as we now know, Bill was right. The B47 laid the basic concept groundwork for jet design and the Dash80 was the result of that and where all later jetliners basically came from. It is said Boeing gambled all its money on that prototype. Their gamble paid off.
As a 7 year old, in 1965, I emigrated with my family from England to Australia on Qantas 707 'V-Jet', VH-EBM 'City of Launceston' which was later owned by Frank Sinatra and eventually John Travolta. It was a great journey.
Another great video ! These history ones are extremely interesting. Even though I grew up during that time frame I still learn more!
It amazes me that the B52 is still in active service even to this day. The last production run was in 1963? That is nearly a decade before I was born.
They only had to upgrade the engine only because it's easier to get the sparepart (hence still 8 engine configuration)
@@bocahdongo7769 I believe that in the 70s Roll Royce offered modified RB-211s to replace the 8 engines, there would have been 4 engines and used about 1/2 the fuel, but it was turned down because the USAF didn't want to rely non american engines for its aircraft.
@@TIMMEH19991 still on peak of Cold War mind you. They still use buff as potential nuclear carrier.
But, even with todays 4 engine conversion, the fuel and maintenance saving didn't add up compare with how surprisingly infrequent they use this machine and also new mounting development cost
@@TIMMEH19991 I read that they turned it down because the cost of retrofitting the fleet would've been more than just burning more fuel for a few decades.
@@TIMMEH19991 Besides, a B-52 without 8 engines just seems wrong somehow. Like Jaret Leto as the Joker, it just ain't right.
Thanks for this video, reminding me of my first flight in 1974, which was on a TWA Boeing 707 from London Heathrow to Los Angeles. There was a refuelling stop in Newark, New Jersey, because I don't believe these 707s had the range for a non-stop flight to LAX. The flight experience was pretty similar to today, but seats in economy were wider and more comfortable, with slightly better legroom. Once again though, we are flying across the Atlantic on narrow bodied aircraft, such as the 737Max or Airbus A321. The 707 engines, however, were noisier than modern ones and gave off a lot of smoke trails on take off. I also recall the strong smell of jet fuel in the air when arriving at the airport, something which is not so apparent today.