NTSB Preliminary Report: Naples Challenger 600 N823KD
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
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Props to the cabin crew for using baggage door - Top lass - knows her stuff.
She lived as well. Coincidence?
It’s her job
@@smudent2010 The aircraft crashes on a freeway and immediately catches fire. The very essence of the cabin attendant applying her job training under incomprehensible pressure and stress. Stupid, stupid, ignorant comment.
@@johnp139you trying to imply the pilots didn't?
Glad they all fit through that door! Whoopi would have had a bad day.
Juan, thank you much for the objective analysis. As you surmised, the FO was indeed a former highly experienced airline guy. I had the pleasure of flying with him many times. A fine gentleman. RIP.
This was a targeted hit on the two passengers
@@JimmyHossa Why? By whom?
@@JimmyHossaA targeted hit that just so happens to have happened 5 miles from landing after being in the air for hours? Right…..
@@JimmyHossaTroll.
@@ingresswizard9044 Because the likelihood of the engines randomly deciding to both fail on final after being in the air for hours is such a solid conclusion 🙄😵💫
Regardless of the cause, I am impressed by the calm demeanor on the flight deck - captain and FO worked the issue and flew it ALL the way to the end.
If it wasn't for that sound barrier, they would still be with us.
@@HuckThis1971 I meant the cause…before THAT cause…
@@baomao7243 Because they most likely knew they would have been OK. So many hours in the cockpit as a pilot. A wing end clipping a hard structure isn't forgiving and will spin the aircraft in direction of rotation. In this case a concrete sound barrier. It's an unfortunate situation.
The pilots did the most heroic thing and saved the passengers and flight attendant.
😂Did they check the fuel origin at Ohio State University???
Within seconds, decisions were made. But 3 people survived.
The pilots tried their best…
So unlucky!! They were so close to making it in a terrible situation.. RIP
I think you need to wait a bit longer before you can say the pilots tried their best...
@@typhoon2827 from what is public available now it look like they did the best. The ATC communication, the way they flown it and the hours both of them had.
Pilots gave more of their best, they gave their all.
@@TruckingToPlease The Capt/FO played their best of poor hand💯✔
Despite the odds heavily stacked against them, these pilots performed their duties impeccably. Not only did they keep their passengers safe, they limited the collateral damage done on the ground. All while making the ultimate sacrifice. I hope that if/when I am faced with an in flight emergency, I perform as admirably as these folks. Rest in peace legends. May the skies in heaven be blue and the winds calm.
@@_-Karl-_ We can sit here and debate about what caused the engine failures, or whose fault it was or wasn’t but what’s done is done. Human error is a thing, we are all susceptible to it. Regardless of the cause of the dual engine failure, these folks did everything they could to minimize the loss of life while landing a massive aircraft on a busy Florida highway and I commend them for that. I hope you have an awesome day and weekend Karl 🤝
@@TurningFinalOfficial I completely agree. Aviation operates in the present, not five seconds in the past. Even if the pilots inadvertently shut down the engines, their response immediately after was exemplary.
@@lukegerst2382 Very well said my friend!
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
"Correctamondo."
My close friend was the cabin attendant on this flight. She has been going through a lot of trauma as you can imagine after this crash. Way too much media attention and misreporting on someone involved in such a horrific accident. It is amazing to hear her praised by the NTSB and the aviation industry as a whole. She may have singlehandedly saved the two passengers on this plane. RIP to the two pilots in this tragic set of circumstances.
wishing a speedy recovery
I can only imagine what she’s going through. My best to her as she works to recover from this terrible accident.
They were so lucky that the frame of the aircraft had not buckled causing that baggage door to jam. Must have been a truly terrifying experience. Just such a shame that the crew that got them onto the ground did not survive. Also a real miracle that the freeway was not busier. This could easily have been a much bigger tragedy.
It was still somewhat busy traffic, just reflecting on the pilots skill to land like he did …. But it could have been worse, as you said. But gosh, he was so close to making it. 😞🇺🇸
From listening to it, this is not an obvious crash.
This aircraft won't buckle too easy! It's a flying tank!
@@HuckThis1971 What do you mean? Aircraft fuselages are quite thin aluminium and will tweak easily from a very hard landing, easily causing a door frame to get tweaked. This landing wasn't particularly hard I guess, but the subsequent impact with the wall would've been plenty.
@@rkan2 I work at Bombardier on the assembly line and see this aircraft everyday! Trust me, it's built very well!
The possibility of an inadvertent dual engine shut down brings back memories of a similar incident that happened with a Navy EA-6B Prowler circa 1978. The 4 place jet entered the break at 800' just ahead of the ship in preparation for trapping aboard. As the pilot banked left and retarded the power levers to idle, he inadvertently pulled both PCLs in the the idle cut off position, shutting down both J-52 P408 engines (first cousins to the JT-8D}. The power quadrant is designed so that the pilot can NOT shut down both engine at the same time. What we determined during the subsequent investigation was that there was some wear in the quadrant such that if the pilot retarded the left PCL slightly ahead of the right one, it was possible to pull both PCLs into the idle cut off detent. The first indication to the crew was engine related warning lights coming on, followed rapidly by a dark cockpit as the generators dropped off the line. I don't remember if there were 3 or 4 crewmen aboard, but all successfully ejected. It is hard to believe that two engines could simultaneously flame out from fuel contamination.
Agree, especially with last sentence.
Wow. Good info. Thanks.
Was there no fingerlift or latch to prevent going to cutoff when pulling them to idle?
NOT, Repeat NOT, Fuel Contamination. No way. I have 20,000 hours mostly in jets, these throttles were moved past the idle detent to IDLE CUTOFF Simultaneously. How or why is the question. If there is a retrievable CVR, therein might be found the answers. The WORLD should not have to wait a year and a half for these most important answers. I have been into Naples twice since the accident and had a chance to observe the accident site several times from the air. I also hold a CL-600 type rating, and I know from the initial position a good bit more than idle power would have been required to reach the 1000 ft marker on Runway 23.
Not likely an accidental shut off.
There was a large road sign on the side of the road which likely made the crash worse, if you check it out on street view you can see it's supported by two vertical steel I-Beams. If you look at post accident photos from AP you can see the wheel marks on the grass beginning to curve away from the wall despite the wing scraping along this wall. The right wing hit that sign posts, turning the plane hard into the wall. That also tore open the right wing tanks which was likely a larger contributor to the spray of fuel and subsequent fireball.
Sad situation. Rest in Peace to the crew.
Man. They were so close to making it.. its too bad they couldn't get lined up with the highway before stalling into the ground
@@jimlthor They did not stall! No wing rock, no porpoising…they flew it onto the roadway. Their problem, as they saw it was they had no good choices: they were going almost twice as fast as surrounding traffic and probably drove for the shoulder so as not to crush any vehicles from behind. From their eyes, their only salvation lay in the grass clear of traffic and they did a Hell of a good job with the very bad hand they were dealt.
You're a thousand percent right they should make the roads suitable for jet Landings
Fly safe @scottmanley
At my previous airline we transitioned from Brasilias to the CRJ-200. The levers that unlock reverse thrust on the Brasilia are in nearly the same place as the idle cutoff lockout levers on the CRJ. We had a few instances of pilots moving the thrust levers to idle cut off on landing thinking they were engaging reverse thrust.
I’m pretty sure we also had some engine shutdowns in cruise from pilots inadvertently shutting down engines at altitude due to one pilot having his arm behind the thrust lever as the other was pulling it back to idle. We definitely discussed this threat in training.
In our test cell, we test a variety of industrial and aviation turbine engines. Our throttle control does not have a minimum stop, so we have to be careful not to pull too far back on the lever, or we can cut off the fuel. There is so much air and fuel and power going through these engines, that cutting fuel flow for even a fraction of a second means that flame is gone. We are right next to the engine in our test cell, and are very aware when we (I) mistakenly shut down an engine. If the operator acts within a second or two, they can reset the fuel lever to idle, and restart the engine using its own rotational momentum. BUT it only works if the ignition is also switched on. If a turbine engine is starved for fuel, it's out, and the combustion chamber/area does not contain anything hot enough to ignite the fuel. A spark is needed. It's quite a trick, and an exciting moment to "save" a run, with a relight after an unwanted shutdown for us, and our operator is standing there at the controls, not also flying an aircraft. I don't know if the aircraft in question will allow energization of the igniters at any time the pilot wants, but even if it does, there's a lot going on. All within the few seconds it takes for the engine to lose too many revs, the pilot has to recognize that the engines were cut, and why, rectify that, then switch on the sparks, and also fly the plane. If the plane will not allow manual control of ignition, and only has an automated start sequence, there was nothing the crew could have done.
It has a continous igntion switchlight on the overhead panel. Press it in and all ignitors are firing until you press it out.
On the challenger, the throttle is mechanically linked to the engine fuel control. If not rigged correctly, they can fully cutoff fuel at the idle position.
My money is on the “reach across” theory. I don’t pretend to be an expert but I’m an old timer rated on three Bombardier jets. CVR probably will not reveal that. Interviews with pilots that flew on this account may shed some light on how pilot flying and pilot monitoring duties were conducted. In my operation (corporate) the flying pilot is always in the left seat. We swap seats but the trip captain’s responsibilities to manage the trip always remain with the trip captain. How did Hope A Jet do business? The training vendors will have vital input to the final report. The 23 year old cabin attendant is worthy of a national award IMHO.
To open all exits is her job. What about doctors, nurses, cops, firemen. Should they get participation ribbons instead.
@@CFITOMAHAWKwhat's wrong with you?
@@satan.is.my.copilotWrong With you. It is called Intelligence.
@@CFITOMAHAWK you'd have to be pretty smart to have come up with a hot take like that. And yes, any doctors and nurses that help someone escape a burning plane crash should also get awards. I'm sorry that life has made you so bitter. Peace.
Interesting point on how your operation have pilot flying in the left seat - sounds like a pragmatic solution (or at least going there some of the way) to a potential (however unlikely ) problem.If I was a paying passenger with half an interest in these matters , I'd appreciate that.
A clarification on the red, Idle shutoff Levers.
The thrust levers are designed such that they must be in the idle stop before engaging the red Idle Shut off lever in order to shut down the engines.
Engaging the red shutoff lever when the thrust lever is not at the idle stop will prevent the thrust lever from going into shutoff.
I’ve had personal experience with a thrust lever linkage disconnect on a CF-34, and believe that it is extremely unlikely that both engines’ linkages would fail at exactly the same time.
Something worth looking into is exactly at what time were the flaps selected to 45 degrees, and did that time coincide with the engine failures.
Also, if there was Engine Oil indications, the N2 would have been too low to recover the engine without a starter assist (way too low airspeed for a Windmill start).
Another consideration is that the CF-34 3B engine does not have an auto ignition system for flameout recovery.
Well explained Juan!
Also, once the throttles are placed in shutoff, the same safety levers must be actuated and held in order to place the throttles back into Idle. Which NTSB reported that the position indicators on the FCUs were at Idle.
@@robertc4293That’s right!
The thrust levers were put back to idle after the engine shut down I’m sure. Shutting the engines down with the captains forearm is the only probable cause. I flew the CRJ series for 7 years and can totally see this happening.
@@Banshee365That’s the most likely cause for the dual engine failure, be it a forearm, or sleeve, etc.
The 604 and CRJ-200 (unlike the -700/-900) does not have an auto relight ignition system, and I doubt that whoever brought the thrust levers back into idle thought to hit the CONT IGN to ON.
@@Banshee365 it will be interesting to hear what is on the CVR.
Unbelievable that the flight attendant was able to keep her wits after the hard impact and spinning to the right, then accessing the proper door to depart the aircraft with only seconds 👍👍👍
Not really. SHE WAS ALSO FACING DEATH!!!!$
@@johnp139fight or flight. Many people freeze in that situation
@@assaultlick2169 The air crew selection process specifically is designed to eliminate those people who are unable to work under pressure. They're then also given training to break those tendencies. They are not grabbing random people off the street and making them flight crew.
@@otm646 of course, but simulation ≠ reality. People freeze when shit gets real
Professional people in the flight deck and the plane !!!!!
Ugh, that FO... almost 25K hours of likely uneventful career at the airlines just to have this happen not even 200 hours into this job (or into this make / model)
@@russellearlpatten3700lighten up, francis
@@russellearlpatten3700 the profession of Aviators and aviation uses Accident reporting, debriefing, and discussions to help bring accidents and fatalities to as close to zero as much as possible. I believe in 2012 the major US airlines had zero accident/fatalities. Operator error in the past was the vast majority and in recent years that paradigm has shifted to the majority being equipment failure. This speaks highly of the profession of Aviators.
Having oversensitive individuals commenting against this practice is an anathema and should be countered in the extreme by Aviators.
This means you!
@@russellearlpatten3700 he was clearly expressing sympathy you're reading too much into it
@@russellearlpatten3700 I don't think he intended it to be disrespectful. I think he was just saying it's tragic for an accident that led to the pilot's death to occur after such a long, likely uneventful, career. Rest in peace to both pilots.
@@russellearlpatten3700 holy christ, grow up
The NTSB is going to earn their pay on this one. Lots of questions with few answers. Cabin attendant definitely knew her jet and how to get her pax out quickly. It was just a bad day for the flight deck. Quick thinking got the jet on the ground in good order but just had a bit more drift to bleed off. The wingtip met an immovable object then the jet spun around and burned. Humble condolences to the flight crews' families and the company. Losing two experienced men will be tough.
Excellent work and professionalism by the FA. He/She knew her plane and her job!
She also wanted to live!!!
@@johnp139are you going to comment on every post praising her? Do you have a problem?
As a past, single crew FA, I cannot imagine what that woman is going through. I worked as a CREW with my pilots and would have done anything to help them. As hard as it must have been, she did her job to help those passengers. My thoughts are with the pilot's families and this flight attendant as they move forward.
@@LIamaLlama554I think YOU have a problem
Fuel contamination beyond what the engines can handle, usually reveals itself very early or after full power on takeoff It almost never occurs after the plane has been flying for an appreciable time period.
Agree that it’s unlikely, but not completely unheard of. We don’t know what we don’t know with an accident like this.
Also, both engines feed from a different location, and the shutdown happened almost simultaneously.
That and the fact it happened to both engines abruptly at the same time to me doesn’t seem like contamination, but more like an on/off situation. It’s just so so sad that the two pilots didn’t survive this. Damn that concrete sound barrier😢
If there was water in the tank and that kick they did before landing could have disturbed/moved the pool of water to the pickup and then killed the engines.
I worry that the pilots may have actually survived, but were trapped by fire.
Lives were saved by that heads-up cabin attendant. And as a paramedic who has responded to hundreds of motor vehicle accidents and who has seen how easily doors can get jammed shut even with fairly moderate impacts, I'm sure glad they were able to get that back door open!
I’m sure that the cabin attendant ALSO WANTED TO LIVE!!!!
@@johnp139 And also, THE SKY HAS AIR IN IT!!!!!
While listening to the ATC tapes of this incident, the " calmness " in the flight crew's demeanor during the incident, wants me to unfortunately believe that they knew exactly what they did wrong and knew they were in trouble. It's like pulling the mixture control full back to engine cutoff position instead of the throttle in a light single while on approach.........The engine will quit with no room for an air restart. And yeah, you'll have to tell ATC you're not going to make the runway. Kudos to the flight attendant......she saved her passenger's lives. The true heroine in this accident.
In the early 1990's a Challenger crashed due to water in the fuel causing both engines to fail. Both pilots survived. The fuel co. tried to hide the evidence by dumping their fuel truck in a swamp. Crazy stuff!!
I remember that one. Ice crystals had formed as the fuel went below 0C, about 2 hrs into the flight. Clogged both engines’ fuel filters and one flamed out before the other did.
Somehow I have never heard of that. Gonna have to find more info
Can't find it... anyone know the tail number or flight number?
... okay, I think I found it.. N88HA? Don't see anything about the fuel truck though
They turned down the option of Prist when they refueled. Couldnt that have caused the same symptoms and or problem? Sorta like diagnosing a disease with symptoms quite similar to another disease.
@@jimlthor just looked it up:
N88HA,
20 March, 1994
Accident report no. CHI94FA116
@@pattyhaley9594 I just looked up that report to remind myself, here’s where to find it:
N88HA,
20 March, 1994
Accident report no. CHI94FA116
The fact that both engines died within a half a second of each other definitely seems to rule out the possibility of fuel contamination
Yea, I’m not accident investigator, but don’t have to be to realize there’s no way they die simultaneously from fuel contamination. Maybe on a B52 you can have two engines fail simultaneously due to fuel contamination… if they’re on the same pod.
Really? Why is that? I would think it would point to fuel contamination? What am I missing here?
Not to mention they made 99% of the trip with no issues.
@@_-Karl-_ Your just joking, right??
@@_-Karl-_ Sully would beg to differ.
Wow! That’s a load of speculation to deal with for quite a long time. Hence the reason we all signed off on FOQUA, ASAP and the like. Due to the abruptness and symmetry of the dual failure it does seem like an inadvertent shutdown of both engines. Depending on how the guy sits in the right seat is what I’m thinking would discern how the PIC reaches for the flap lever. If I flew with FO’s that were way seat forward I’d probably be forced to go from behind their arm. Most of the time I would go over (in front) of their arm. But, never flew the Challenger. Props to the FA. She obviously knew the airplane. Those pax are alive because of her. A true hero as you pointed out. Your vids are great. My go to guy in this stuff.
I wonder what the relative heights of the Captain and First Officer. A much shorter Captain (whose seat may be further forward) woud hinder the his operation or access to the flaps lever.
It seems like the person landing the plane and controlling the thrust levers should be on the left and the FO handling the Flaps should be on the right. Then this cross over issue would not come up.
@@jaycahow4667The captain always sits on the left, and the FO on the right (unless the FO is being trained to be a captain). It would be very odd for a plane to require that the captain fly all landings.
From UX perspective it seems a bit odd to position the controls that way in the first place. Ie. for there to be a completely normal workflow where hands need to cross over such a small area, especially one with critical toggles.
Yes, much remembers to what happened at Yeti Airlines Flight 691 in Nepal.
The pilots merged better then most car and truck drivers out there. May they rest in piece.
Especially in Florida.
@@Feed_Bleed_ReadDon't be a jerk. You've made spelling mistakes too.
They didnt merge, You can only do that with overspeed or with power to float on the flare. They neither.
@@eric_in_florida Terrible driver behaviors rampant on the Left coast (border to border).
Especially between exits 105 and 101 in the southbound lane. That’s where your Miami-bound Mario Andretti’s drive
Thanks for the info Juan. Even Gulfstream crews are VERY interested in this one.
BZ to the FA for getting the pax out. Regardless of cause the crew almost pulled it off, real shame they didn't make it.
Don’t you think that SHE ALSO WANTED TO GET OUT???
@@johnp139many people freeze in life threatening situations. This correlates higher in women. Co fusion, disorientation, potential Injury. There alot more to think about then you are taking Into acct. Not everyone in a badazz, chief
@@johnp139 Why do you keep saying this? What does this have to do with anything? Obviously she wanted to get out. Doesn't change the fact that she got the passengers and herself out alive when the primary exit was blocked.
@@xXbrick84Xxyeah, it's weird. Especially since some freeze up in an actual emergency.
And is he implying the pilots didn't want to get out which is why they didn't?
They did pull it off..
Their primary responsibility is to get the kids home safe ..
FA pulled it off as well .
Cabin attendant deserves a high level award for clear thinking.
She also saved her own life.
To open all exits is her job. What about doctors, nurses, cops, firemen. They do that many times a day.
@@johnp139super necessary comment 🙄 of course she did, the point is is that she didn’t panic and remembered her training. Not everyone has the ability to perform like that under extreme stress.
@@ryanvickery5491 Indeed - this week's "airplane geeks" podcast discussed this crash with a corporate jet flight attendant trainer, who said that not all corporate jets have trained FAs on board, which was quite a surprise to me. She has spoken to this FA after the accident, so I'm guessing the final report will have all the details of what happened.
I’m wonder after this craft if it would not be a good idea to brief passengers on all those exits like the baggage door? If that FA had been knocked unconscious things would have went differently. Everyone on board should at least have some minimal training in case of emergency.
First indication of fuel cutoff will be a sharp drop in ITT. Even before the oil warning comes on.
There may not be enough power in the airflow to windmill and re-start the engine, but there is enough mass flow to cool down the combustion chamber
The data recorder will be crucial.
Props to the passengers for wearing their seatbelts, taking them off and getting out and away from the accident scene.
That how you survive.
Unfortunately, some people panic and try to open their seatbelts the way they would in their car. The difference between car and airliner seatbelts is something people need to be aware of (it is demonstrated in the safety briefing).
Amazing analysis Juan, at first I thought No way, but after listening to your analysis and reading the report the right seat pilot flying and left seat operating the flap handle seems the most likely scenario. Fuel contamination causing a dual engine flame out within .9 milliseconds is very unlikely and fuel starvation from the collector tank while in a banking right turn also seems highly unlikely. An accidental bump and pull into the shutdown detent seem very plausible and should constitute an immediate fix and training bulletin. Hat tip to the flight attendant, I have briefed PAX a thousand times to look outside before executing an egress and she did just that resulting in 3 lives saved.
Interesting theory of what occurred in the cockpit, well within reasonable possibility. Good analysis-thanks. Kudos to the attendant who saved lives and to the pilots for flying the plane to its ultimate demise, regardless of fault.
when I saw clips of how the throttles could accidentally going into the "shutoff" position, I thought "what a horrible design"
I wholeheartedly concur!
But Juan seemed to say the pilot in the right seat used his/her right hand to reach across, I don’t get how the pilot in the right seat would use their right hand to reach across their own body to then use any controls in the centre. Surely their left hand would be in position to do this?
@@teeanahera8949 he probably meant to say the left seat
@@teeanahera8949 Juan mis-spoke initially, then correctly a few moments later. Pilot in left seat would be reaching around, underneath the thrust levers to get to the flap lever.
EXACTLY!!!!
I watch WW 2 RUclips videos. They get demonetized more than your videos. Apparently RUclips can't handle too much of reality. You are doing great work on the crash and other plane videos.
Because they don’t want to hire people to screen out Nazi and ISIS content so they blanket ban any key words or based on reports. When ISIS first came out you could easily find their videos on here.
Corporate advertisers don't like not being in control of the information you see. These people ruined radio, TV, and cable before turning their sights on RUclips. RUclips, of course, wants that sweet sweet corporate money so they jump when Madison Avenue tells them to.
@@sheldoniusRexyou voted for Capitalism buddy, so this is the reward you reaped. There is only one principle, make more money with an ‘infinite’ amount of resources. Obviously resources are not infinite which causes failures. Most countries are Capitalist but they have a lot of government control to prevent monopolies, some call this Socialism and Americans call it Communism. RUclips is a private company and they can do what they like.
It was all over FB, tik tok, instagram, and the national news, yet YT demonetizes. Makes no sense why they do it 🤣
@@teeanahera8949 - RUclips is not a private company, it's owned by Google, which in turn is owned by Alphabet, which is a public company.
I'm a retired crj Captain with over 14,000 hours in the crj-200, 700,900. My guess is when the captain reached over to go flaps 45 the thrust levers may have been at idle and he inadvertently hit the shut off levers. My former airline had this happen many years back but fortunately they had enough altitude and were able to get both engines relit. As a former check airman I always really made it clear to my upgrade captains to be very careful when they reached over the column to select the flaps especially if the thrust levers were near idle.
enough altitude and flaps 45? lol what altitude were they at?
Ex Challenger driver here, very well presented and I am impressed with your analogy.
Incredible review of this accident Juan. kudos to the attendant using that rear door.
Such a shame. Hopefully the NTSB can figure out exactly what happened here. The fact you could inadvertently shutoff the engines while reaching for flaps is terrifying. Would be nice to see an adjustment to those controls regardless of the outcome of this investigation.
Why is there not dual controls for flaps ... or placement of those handles at some symmetric place? Crazy design layout looks like engineering afterthought to me.
Flaps right of throttle is pretty normal, albeit maybe a relic of the past we can find a better solution to. In my opinion, the real oversight is just that the same motion to reach for flaps can release the engine shutdown levers.
@@spencerlanman4011 It seems like the person landinghe plane and controlling the thrust levers should be on the left and the FO handling the Flaps should be on the right. Then this cross over issue would not come up.
@@jaycahow4667Plane needs to be flyable from both seats. What's the point of two pilots if only one can fly the plane?
Shouldn't be too tough to relocate the flap switch out of the way.
I have about 8k hours in the CL65. I can tell you, the captain always reach behind the thrust levers to move the flaps when the FO is flying. That being said the thrust levers have to be in the idle position in order to lift the red tab to get them to shut off position. If the red tab is lifted while the thrust levers are slightly above idle they so called “lock” out the thrust lever to prevent inadvertent shutdown. Easier to show someone than tell them about it.. the theory of the captains arm lifting the tabs is def relative though. Something like went flaps 45 while at idle, fos fast, short approach, capts arm hits the tabs while fo making sure he’s at idle and bam… just shut down both engines.
Yes, my thoughts exactly. But we will see eventually. Replacing springs on the tab mechanism, say one that requires 15lbs of force to lift, would negate this possibility without any downside I think.
@@Chris11249 if this was the case I would think they might put an AD out on the AC series. Never happened before. I’ve seen the cable break on one engine in climb power. Coming out of DCA, crew just used the fire button to shut it down landed single engine.
ty, jb...I'm amazed to hear how professional the pilots are when confronted with dire emergency, they almost pulled it off.
I think it went down exactly how you laid it out at the end Juan, maybe within a degree or two, which will probably never be proven anyway. I've worked on business jets my entire adult life and could easily see this playing out in a right-hand base to final turn with the right seat pilot looking down and to the right...yep... Occam's Razor.
The twin oil pressure failures within a second of each other tell it all. If they were both lost that fast due to contamination, there would have to be so much visible sludge and debris in the fuel to be obvious to anyone. Nope. This was an inadvertent shutdown. Both were extremely high-hour pilots, but neither had a lot of time in that cockpit. Sad.
They did their duty though. They flew it all the way to the end, and they saved their FA and passengers. That's something to be proud of. My condolences to their family and friends.
Oh yes, a huge shout out to the FA who kept her head on a swivel, and didn't panic. I'd like to buy her a coffee if anyone knows her info. Get a little fund going for her, know you would have to be traumatized after losing two friends and co-workers like that.
So … explain it to me like I am not a pilot, which is the truth … one arm may have bumped the wrong thingamajig?
But once in that situation, the pilots went with that issue and tried to land, (knowing they didn’t have an alternative?)?
😞
@@hlowrylong what you're saying doesn't make much sense, "the pilots went with that issued and tried to land". Explain yourself more specifically. There was no choice. Without power your only option is to fly the aircraft to the accident site.
The PIC had over 8,000 hours in that exact make and model. Not sure what you mean by neither pilot not having much time in the cockpit.
@@hlowrylong Yes that's basically correct. If the engines were shut off through inadvertently lifting the release latches and moving the thrust lever to shutoff position (or they failed due to any other cause) then the engines on this particular type of aircraft cannot be restarted. The pilots would then have no option but to glide the aircraft to a hopefully suitable, off-field landing site.
A few things. Plane did not originate in Naples. Plane departed Fort Lauderdale, flew 2.5hr to OSU, took 350g at OSU, then flew 2.5hr to Naples.
Plane also struck a road sign prior to the sound barrier wall. Some discussion out there the sign help turn the airplane towards the wall, along with the side slip.
OIL PRESS ECAM message will happen if you voluntarily go to cutoff, or also if engines involuntarily simply stop. Does not require engine cutoff. Once oil pressure drops below 30psi sets off lights, all that means. Could be from cutoff, or other reason.
NTSB knows how much fuel the aircraft took in Lauderdale. Also knows all ECAM messages dumped from the data recorder. For example, when engine shuts down, will get the entire Christmas tree of ECAM messages, oil press, hyd press, fuel pressure low, etc etc. I think it’s a disservice the NTSB did not include more information, despite already knowing the cause of this accident, from both the CVR and FDR.
Challenger is an important aircraft in many fleets. Can’t wait 1-2 years for a final report. Need to get the information out there to concrete state whether or not there is a concerning problem for the fleet.
Amazing job from the flight attendant. Keep in mind that she likely witnessed her pilots die. Hope she's doing fine.
She also survived, not just the passengers.
@@johnp139you are getting reported for these asinine comments.
and this is a scammer
@@Wblancolirio
Thank you for providing this preliminary NTSB report. I was concerned about possible DEF contamination. I had previously mentioned that this was responsible for a dual engine failure on a Falcon 900 EX. That aircraft was able to perform a one engine operative approach and successfully land at KOPF. This was discussed at length in a Falcon 900LX recurrent I attended in 2018. It was also discussed in NBAA and AIN articles.
It looks like a possibility that DEF was not added to the fuel when they filled up, causing icing.
@@tedmoss DEF is Diesel Exhaust Fluid. For automotive use only. You absolutely do not want to have DEF contamination of aviation Jet fuel. Jet fuel that has been contaminated with DEF can cause detrimental damage to the fuel filters and engine components of a turbine engine. Prist is an approved additive that helps prevent icing in jet fuel.
That was my first thought too but it would show up as white crystals in the filter and fuel pump. This doesn't look like that. Starting to look like pilot error.
@@GRW3 Yes…In the case of the Falcon 900EX that was contaminated with DEF, there were photos presented of all of the fuel filters. They were absolutely trashed. Given additional time, the third engine would have failed as well. All three engines, the APU, and the entire fuel system needed to be overhauled.
I believe the comm transcripts confirm the fuel ordered from KOSU by the pilots was non-Prist @@douglaswhitcomb9729
FA: Huge SALUTE!
Flight attendants have been really earning their keep recently. Respect! Maybe they should be renamed EEs (evacuation experts).
Not only the attendant but alsomthe demeanor of every person not thinking for a split second about leaving it all behind -- luggage, handbags, and everything. That alone saved lives.
FA is the real hero here.
@@paulsherman51 reminds me of Teterboro challenger failed high speed abort. Everyone got out via the baggage door.
@@Plutogalaxy He probably grabbed it as he was exiting the baggage door.
I met an FA last year. She said 90% of their training is safety, 10% customer service. Makes sense!
Guess what? SHE ALSO SURVIVED!!!
This exact mechanism for inadvertent shutdown has been replicated in a Challenger simulator.
The photos of that reminded me of the inadvertent TOGA activation on Atlas 3591.
This one is sticking with me for unknown reasons. I have always loved the design and performance of the aircraft. I don't have a personal physical contact with this aircraft type. But the way they lost both engines during landing phase seems highly unlikely.
I'm only an aviation enthusiast, but this channel has made me aware of the importance of checklists. Committing to memory emergency procedures. If not to memory, then a laminated card near the glareshield to grab immediately.
Wonderful there were survivors, i wish everyone could have made it.
Everyone who watches and reads these comments are better aviators for it.
If ever I decide to get my ppl, these are lessons that will always stick.
Those two guys spent their whole lives waiting for fate to show up, when it did they saved the innocent. RIP guys.
Fate, that's funny. Bless your heart.
@@deandownsouth
Why ? Everyone has a fate, and a destiny
and they had a lot to do with saving the flight attendant and passengers. had they failed getting the s/c this close to the ground and going slow enough. they all wouldve perished. rip.
@@rocknative70 right, we're all just passengers in life and some topless chick-goddesses spin each of our lives out on various mediums. I guess if it helps you deal with life and it's chaotic randomness, power to you, it does take a lot of thinking out of a world view so I get the appeal.
@@deandownsouth Fate is a hunter, but you knew that. It's an Ernest Gann reference.
I agree that one possibility is the inadvertently shutdown of both engines by the pilots. This is just a guess, of course, but the fact that both engines stopped working at basically the exact same time (almost exact same seconds), at least for me makes it hard to attribute it to fuel contamination.
Fuel contamination doesn't make much sense to me, as the aircraft had flown event free from Ohio to S. Florida. My best guess is inadvertent dual engine shut off.
I’ve been flying a 604 Challenger for over 10 years now. Three questions that I have not heard the answers to are, which pilot was flying the airplane, were auto throttles being used, and did the engines fail at the same time the flaps were being selected. The pilot’s arm holding the cutoff levers up reaching for the flaps while the copilot comes to idle makes total sense. I tried it in our aircraft and took a photo that I wish I could attach here. Another scenario worth consideration is the pilot was flying the airplane and retarding the throttles while the copilot was reaching around being the cutoff levers to arm the thrust reversers for landing, which are on the left side of the throttles.
Former Challenger pilot here. (600, 601, 604) Your Thrust Reverser Arm switches idea makes sense. With the experience level of both pilots, and a Part 135 operation, I doubt that the Right seater was the PF.
My suspicion is that this inadvertent shutdown happened just after the gear was selected DN, and the before landing checklist accomplished. The rotational inertia of the N2 spool, and approximately 180 kts. would have taken time before the N2 spooled down to where the ENG OIL indications appeared (about 10-15% N2, if I recall)
Safe travels!
They took on a fair amount of fuel in Ohio. As Juan explained in the first video, the fuel from both tanks is mixed in center tanks before heading to the engines. They managed to fly, uneventfully, almost all the way back to Naples before, suddenly, both engines quit.
If the fuel was contaminated, how did it not cause an issue much earlier in the flight?
Kudos to all the crew. If it wasn't for a bit of bad luck, they'd all have made it home. Condolences to the friends and families of the lost crew.
maybe when they rolled in the turn towards the airfield the water sloshed into the pickups
3 center aux tanks feed the main ( wings) tanks which feeds the collector tanks ( located in the center aux tank) then on to the engines
Truly sad, they came so close, they did everything they can do and managed to save the lives of their passengers, hope they went out immediately and did not suffer RIP
Well if they did everything they could do, why didn't they restart the engines?
Juan thats reaching across the controls idea is sinister. This is a very complex crash. But we can't discount a simple human error
These pilots and others like them did not die in vain. The fact that you're covering these accidents is a invaluable teaching opportunity for all who are here to learn. You will save lives undoubtedly. It's impossible to fully appreciate the reach, value and impact you're making on avaiton but we can all attest to it. Thank you for your time and effort with each video. Cheers
THESE WERE FANTASTIC PILOTS !!!!
Yep, you nailed, Captain's arm reaching around the throttles to roll the flaps pretty much explains it.
Can this scenario be recreated to illustrate HOW this is possible?
yes, I have seen a sim video of this being re-created@@7000fps
I would think that fuel contamination would cause an issue much earlier in flight. The fuel systems have components to circulate fuel in the wings to help with any water contamination by dispersing it in the fuel. The amount of fuel they took on in Ohio wasn’t much for that aircraft for that trip - maybe just enough to avoid ramp fees.
I just wish I could get all my news from him. No b's, just facts, well presented. The Walter Cronkite of our days.
Cronkite was dishonest and biased. He benefited from working before internet fact checkers.
Unfortunately we now know that Cronkite was full of s**t.
@@deandownsouth luckily, I don't think Juan is.
@@deandownsouthcommunist he was, so much of his reporting reflected his disgusting ideas for a new world order.
I worked in a G2 for several years; configured for mapping. When I safety briefed a new crew or observer I start with the baggage door and make that person cycle the door. And during inspections if the over wing doors were going to be removed I used that opportunity to get crew to open them. And the main cabin door hard to push latch too.
Hmmm simultaneous loss with simultaneous low oil pressure… doesn’t look good.
Not going with bad fuel tentatively. Flew too far without issue. Throttle cut off and no refire, a distinct possibility. Facts will determine the cause. They flew it to the ground. Best they could. Timing of setting the flaps, what does the show and how does it coordinate with engine cutoff/loss of oil pressure? Good presentation Juan Brown
It sounds like your original inclination of the engines being turned off accidentally is fleshing out Juan.
@@Wblancolirio Fake one
The fact that the engines failed within 1 second of each other makes it hard to believe that it would be a fuel contamination issue, unless the fuel lines to both engines are precisely the same length and they are both drawing fuel from exactly same source. A different cause such as inadvertent engine shutdown would seem more likely.
Thanks for this update. It's notable that there was any water at all in one of the fuel lines. The Challenge uses separate collector tanks for each engine. However both collector tanks can feed from the same tank, esp. the aux tanks. As to why both engines should shut down at almost the same time? The shut down did not occur during level cruise. It occurred around transition from downwind to base leg. The aircraft was in deceleration, a left then right turn (higher g), increasing rate of decent, and lowering flaps. If there was water in the bottom of a tank, the deceleration or attitude change may have cause a slosh to collection point, depending where it is the tank that was being used. Also note that on the Challenger, selecting flap (>20° IIRC) initiates an automatic cross feed between main tanks if there is an out of balance above the landing config limit. So if one main tank had water it could appear at both collector tanks and both engines on flap selection. Impressive flying, getting it on that road. RIP.
Kudos to the pilots for getting the passengers home safely.
Even if it turns out it was not the scenario where the left seaters arm reaching for the flaps accidentally came into contact with the levers allowing engine shut down, that is something which must be addressed because that is an accident waiting to happen. ----- Thank you for specifically mentioning the flight attendant and how her training and quick thinking and action saved herself and her two passengers. I also have the highest respect for the two men on the flight deck because they flew that aircraft all the way in and gave them the chance to walk away instead of trying to keep the nose up and stalling. That was a brutal scenario for them, and they came incredibly close to pulling off the miracle landing.
@CFITOMAHAWK exactly what you said. Whilst the polite serving of snacks and drinks takes up time, their only real job is flight safety and especially in an emergency. Mind you, keeping their head level and presence of mind by keeping their own safety belt on after the the pax have as well, was smart. bravo to the flight attendant :-)
Dear Juan, not only your explanations are so clear and concise that a non-pilot like me may understand more and more about aviation, but also your excellent prononciation and clear language effort makes it very easy for a foreigner to grasp the meaning. Sincere thanks for this. (Jean-Louis from France)
I've been saying it ever since this accident happened. I was always leery of the cutoff blockers to the thrust levers on the Learjet and CRJ jets. One time - someone managed to flame an engine out by pulling the thrust lever to idle in an aggressive manner (think slapping to idle). The controller wasn't exactly dialed in and it flamed out. The other was a worn out cutoff blocker and the thrust lever went past the gate, but we brought it back up right away, and nothing happen (of course we wrote it up).
As you displayed that image of the center console and thrust levers, I immediately had the same thought of the Captain reaching under the FO’s arm to move the flap lever. I flew the CRJ-200 (similar jet with similar setup) for a year and was always cognizant of the possibility of this happening and would consciously/subconsciously raise my elbow when calling for a different flap setting. But in the heat of a busy approach I could totally see the other pilot’s arm bumping or his sleeve catching those cutoff levers at exactly the wrong time. Good on them for flying it to a landing and good on the FA for evacuating the pax.
They were so close to pulling off an amazing landing. In 1,000 hours in the CRJ-700 I never reached around and behind the Thrust Levers to change the flap position.
When I flew the CRJ 700/900 at Mesa Airlines every captain I flew with did the flaps going behind the throttles and I always had my left hand on the throttles covering them
I really appreciate your informed and data based analysis of what can be complex ❤events.
Dang Juan, I have heard several descriptions of this incident but your the first one who pronounced Bombardier correctly. I like watching someone who knows his stuff and presents it that way.
Sorry to be that guy but it was not the correct pronunciation. Doesn't matter ofc.
Varying opinions on this. Perhaps different countries have their own pronunciations. Ever heard Hyundai pronounced by a Hyundai exec in Sth Korea? You can find it yourself but it is like: Hy und ai, without the weird contractions of the word one sometimes hears.
Bom barr dee a
Bomb-ba-deer
Courageous and exemplary airmanship. FA action excellent.
I think Juan covered every scenario I thought of during this accident.
It will be interesting what the NTSB finds out, and I hope Juan follows the NTSB updates.
The pilot knew what he did and put them back over detent. Absolutely no other way to cause this.
That airplane had 9,763 hrs, as a A&P/AI, I would check the throttle linkage for the problem, that's alot of hours of wear. Look at that SB again
@Eblancolirio Not sure how to text you, MP
God bless those pilots and their families. So sorry for your loss. They died heroes.
I'm not sure how they died as heroes if it was pilot error. I wish god would have blessed them before the crash, so it was prevented.
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
The situation that the service bulletin brings up is horrifying 17:05
But unlikely to happen to both throttles simultaneously.
@@johnbriggs3916 I second that response. It would have happened to one engine first previously and would be in the maintenance records
That service bulletin is addressed by a routine inspection to measures wear in the throttle gearbox. Very unlikely that you are going to have the same wear that would lead to both throttles failing at the same time.
Yes. Completely agree.
@@robertc4293 Not only that the engine guys at Hop have been doing this a very long time and are well aware of any rigging idiosyncrasies
"The right wing exhibited leading edge damage consistent with impact with the vertical steel I-beam of a highway sign; the front spar was severed in the area of the impact."
This is what forced nose of the plane through the barrier wall and ejected the most fuel. The inboard damage is where the fire originated and the wing later collapsed.
The sign is not plainly visible in the dashcam video, but other footage shows the damage.
It was the "Naples Airport Naples Zoo Coastland Center Mall Exit 105" highway sign about 1/4 mile north of where the aircraft came to rest (it's on Google maps). It had two I-beam supports --- one must have made the "leading edge slice" in NTSB Report Figure 3, and the other "impact-separated the outer portion of the wing."
@@Raiders33 Yes, that sign. It ironically says "airport".
There's numerous local news vids showing the right wing with 2 gouges in it before the fire destroy the plane. The one at the wing root is exceptionally bad.
@@caroltlw Don't think the I-beam supports of the sign could have made both the damage at the wing root AND the leading edge gouge in NTSB Report Figure 3. Challenger 600's wing length is 26.9 ft, but the width between the sign I-beams is much less than that. Plus on Google maps, the sign was very close to the the sound barrier wall. I think NTSB got it right that the sign I-beams caused the Figure 3 leading edge gouge, and they "impact-separated" / severed the "outer portion" wing tip/ winglet.
@@Raiders33
Perhaps wing root was a bad description. The second damaged area was outboard of the engine. The angle taken from behind in slow moving traffic shows it. Don't know what else could have caused damage in that area.
...unless that's where the RM gear [edit: looks like the nose gear is what separated] snapped and came up through the wing. I had originally thought the wingtip was separated by the wall, but the second signpost makes sense if the measurements line up.
Last time I worked with an aircraft that used the engine throttles to start or shutdown the engines was the B-52, and the KC135A. Lot to be said for individual shutoff levers.
Juan, I think you misspoke initially talking about the pilot reaching with his right arm to the flaps, I think you said pilot on the “right side” when you meant “left”. Very informative video!
There’s two dash cam videos I’ve seen. One with the jet coming from behind and as it’s just about to touch down it looks as if the approach is straight. It looks like the left wing glances off the roof of a vehicle which was just enough to sent the still airborne jet to the right just enough.
Scott Manley posted in the comments about a street sign being there.. I havent looked, myself, but it might be worth checking into.
This may have been mentioned before. It’s a 604, not a 600. The 600 has Lycoming engines, not GE and , as I remember has separate engine shut offs.
Yes, the type certificate is 600 but the model is 604.
Been waiting on this, thanks.
Thank you very much for the in-depth review of the Preliminary Report about this Accident. At the moment it seems to be unclear what really happened - but the second possibility sounds very similar to what happened with Yeti.Flight 691 in Nepal.
RIP to the two Pilots. My condolences to their families and friends.
The voice data recorder and instrument data recorder should tell you if the plane was shut down inadvertently. Contaminated fuel is some what of a stretch, if they had bad fuel they would have experience problems earlier in flight. This will be a tough one to figure out, especially with the throttles in a normal flight configuration.
Thanks Juan 👍
The video made it look like the pilot had plenty of rudder authority to get down the center lane but was trying not to kill drivers on the highway. The jet would overtake and plow through any traffic in front of it. The jet landing on top of a car seems deadly to the car as well. I think the pilot was hoping to make it work without harming others.
It seemed amazing - so close to threading the needle … 😞
Thanks so much for the information. Crew co-ordination and knowledge of the equipment is essential. Hats off to the Attendant for knowing her stuff AND being able to execute in such a nightmarish situation.
You know, given how expertly these pilots set the plane down on the highway and how close they came to saving it, and the fact that their amazing piloting likely saved those in the cabin (applause to the attendant, too), I really hate to lay the blame on them for the crash, but Juan's theory regarding the throttles is extremely plausible.
It honestly sounds a lot more likely than both engines suddenly sucking up contaminated fuel within a second of each other after hours of normal operation.
Hopefully the flight recorder records thrust lever positions. At least that could eliminate pilot error if there was none.
Fyi your content is my number one source of viewers on my last posted crane collapse video; of the crane boom fracturing...
RUclips is very weird and you did well on this video.
Take care.
Excellent Report. Thank You Juan. Stay Safe & Best Regards
I’d go along with your scenario Juan. A similar ergonomic failure (hitting the toga buttons) helped start the chain of events on the Atlas air Amazon crash, pilot flying ineptitude notwithstanding.
Juan, most private jet operators, who have pilots qualified to fly the aircraft, rarely if ever fly from the right seat. The PIC (Captain) typically sit in the right seat if the SIC (FO) wants to fly. The point being that they want both pilots to be capable of flying as PIC when the time is needed. It's not like the airlines where you have to do upgraded training. Most recurrents training are flown from the left seat!
The person is right seat is always qualified to fly the aircraft in revenue service.
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky true but not typical SOP and almost with certainty that Hop-a-Jet didn’t. The CVR will confirm this too.
In Europe, many companies choose not to give the FO a left seat qualification until upgrade time
To what we know so far the Captain was sitting in the left-hand-seat and was a professional Hop-a-Jet-Businessjet-Pilot. The FO was a retired former Airline-Pilot, 65 years old, and was sitting in the right-hand-seat. He had much more Flight Hours in a whole than the Captain but was very new on this special Businessjet Modell.
A qualified captain but not necessarily the captain.
A common practice in the charter business, as a function of work load and availability you may be left or right seat or the only pilot. @@Plutogalaxy
They would have deserved to stay and tell what happened to them!! I am just deeply sorry for all this, especially knowing how close they were to get this through perfectly. Amazing though that the rest onboard survived!
Being a jet engine mechanic, the lack of fuel in the main feed lines is peculiar and seems like an obstruction upstream of the engines. Thank you for the detailed videos Juan!
The fuel at the OSU FBO is premixed. Flown there several times myself. If prist was not added, I presume it would be evident on other jets fueled there. I’m also thinking a dual flameout within a second of each other to be an extremely rare event that was due to fuel contamination.
I will wait until I see more evidence before drawing a full conclusion. But I’m aware of a highly experienced and excellent dual-rated crew who accidentally shut down an engine on a Challenger during taxi. If it happened to them it can happen to anyone. I’d be interested in the PF’s other type ratings. That may likely be in the final NTSB report.
Thank goodness for the FA’s quick thinking! That was an amazing heads-up move that saved lives. May God bless and comfort the families of the crew members who perished.