Experience in Ireland. Step 1; contact someone who appears knowledgeable. Step 2; they come out and things seem good. Step 3; they never answer the phone again, or quote you €40k.
As a designer in an office, this rings true - I regularly design, specify and draw something really efficient and find the plumber installed something else which doesn't work so well because they didn't believe the design they were given would work! So yes, giving installers faith in physics is definitely a good plan
Also the designer should take into consideration the difficulty level when designing heat pumps. I've come across some designs that made it extremely frustrating to take off the heat pump panels. Also the accessibility to parts, for instances where you need to change the compressor or circulation pump. Some heat pumps have their pressure regulating valves in very difficult positions. So when you high up on an extension ladder trying to take the said part out. Frustration levels are at another level.
How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡 If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!
If you as an engineer design a system that the person installing can not install in a reasonable way then you have to accept some responsibility when the system does not get installed according to your specifications. You have to remember the system is installed by humans and afterwards it is operated by humans and we have a tendency to try and make things easy and comfortable for ourselves.
Just to add to the data on this, the current break-even SCOP against an 80% efficient oil boiler is currently around 3.8. That's assuming 30p/kWh for electricity and 65p/litre for heating oil.
Oil is closer to 75p/L right now, and you also have to factor in paying a plumber to re-start your boiler every year or so after the system runs dry because none of the oil volume sensors work properly. I've dealt with the nightmare of oil in a rented property for the last 3 years - it isn't an option I would ever consider again.
@@marcuscooper9544 That was just the average UK price at that time - We paid 56p per litre on 22/05/2023 and previously it was 86p per litre on 20/01/2023 - But it does of course depend on where you are within the country as well as how much you order at a time. Assuming the same 30p/kWh for electricity and 80% efficiency for an oil boiler, the break-even SCOPs are 4.52 and 2.92 respectively. I do share your pain with the level sensors, I wish they did a wired version rather than them all being wireless!
Something that would be extremely helpful would be to tell us EXACTLY where systems with average 2.5 SCOP go wrong. What are the things to look out for (I have quite some experience in plumbing and building works, and have tried to understand the influencing factors concerning ASHPs in general, and mine in particular), I can see a lot of pipework by the tank and where the heat pump pipes enter from outside, which is almost literally immediately outside, maybe a metre of insulated pipes outside before they appear inside for a few tens of centimetres. I have a Vaillant Arotherm (not Plus, it was a grant jobby, free to me, no say in which heat pump) 11 kW unit, with an average ANNUAL AVERAGE (because you don't say what your average figures refer to precisely) SCOP of 2.5 almost exactly, not including HW. This is a figure from the first full year's use, including the early winter last year when I was still experimenting with setting, so I'm sure I used rather more electricity for a while, while I was playing with it. I live alone, and only turn on a hot water top up every 2 or 3 days, no regular setting for that as I have an electric shower, and hardly use much HW, with which my overall SCOP is perhaps 2.2-2.3, which is for the whole system. There must be residual power consumption to power the pump and valves etc included in that number. I am on the NW coast of Scotland, and winters are not necessarily SO cold (the clue is in the coastal bit), but they are a month or two longer than in the south of England, annual ambient average temperature probably down on the south of England by 3-5 C over the year, and we have far more wind too, which rips temperature out of just about anywhere! We really get battered with wind on a regular basis, and rainfall is high too. Final thing - how do YOU calculate SCOP? For me it's a straight kWhs out divided by kWhs used. Some manufacturers seem to use an equation which makes their number look much higher and thus better, but it's a con. We had 3 months during winter when it never got much above freezing day or night (SCOP almost exactly 2.0), and even in, say, 15-18 C outside, when some heat is appreciated inside, the SCOP is never more than 3.0. BTW, compared to my old solid fuel, aka coal, central heating system, my heat pump works out, at the most, half the cost of coal and wood per annum, probably rather less than that tbh, so I feel quids in anyway. At £1,200 a year for a very toasty house, I'm not complaining! I need about 22 C all day and evening, health issues, setback to 20 C at night, so for this level of comfort I am happy enough. Of course, if that could be reduced by a third, be my guest! (If you want free accommodation for two in the NW Highlands, the swap would be for you to have a gander at my system!) But I really think it would be hard to improve my SCOP without some radical re-think. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated... Ta v'ry mooch (-:)~
How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡 If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!
I'm making a change to my settings that I know will make my SCoP worse. I'll be setting hot water heating to run in the coldest part of the night. I'm pretty sure it'll be worth it as I'm on an EV tariff that's less than a quarter of the price of my daytime tariff. Just feels a bit sad to spoil my SCoP
I still would love to know what increases in efficiency you would get if you installed a heatpump inside a loft space with a vent to expel the cold side and a drain for the condensed water vapour. Have the hot water tank up there too, and any heat loss from the tank would then be used to re heat the air to be used by the heat pump
That is what we did in my house, initially with a 'conventional' very large unit, which we replaced with two smaller air to water units. The incoming air is via an underground 'earth pipe' which supplies at around 18 degrees on the coldest days (-5c) , the air is used to ventilate the house and then extracted via the ASHP which chills it to below 0c and expels it through a vent to the outside. The house is a six bedroom detached house with a garage heated by a small ASHP also. It seems to work well, and my Electricity bills are reasonable. The COP is difficult to accurately measure due to other factors such as including a solar thermal array into the system, plus PV , plus the varying costs of three EVs, two dishwashers and two washing machines. What I do know is that my total electricity bill is less than my neighbour. AND the house is warm in winter. .
Slightly tangential point but have you considered installing a wastewater heat recovery system to improve the hot water SCOP? e.g. powerpipe, recoup, zypho etc
This is a great shout. I was considering getting one for our house refurb but we were massively over budget by then. Need to give some consideration to space though because I know most waste water heat recovery units are vertical
I’m a home owner with a heat pump and I hear a lot about SCOP. I set my heating curve as low as possible and achieved a SCOP of 5.7 for the year which was great on paper. On our annual service - the engineer commented that the heating and hot water consumption was about 50% higher then expected for a family of 2. Is it time we stop optimising SCOP and start optimising energy input? Im not convinced the two are mutually exclusive. Does the lower the temp = higher scop but … higher energy consumption with pumps having to increase the flow rate to compensate? What’s marketing and what’s reality?
A SCOP of 5.7 is very high - Do you mean COP (Instantaneous efficiency) instead of SCOP (Efficiency over the year)? Either way, COP/SCOP is just efficiency. If you have 300% efficiency and you put 2kW of electrical energy in, you'll get 6kW of thermal energy out. If you have 200% efficiency you'd need to put 3kW of electrical energy in to get the same thermal output. In other words, the two are very much related - If you want to decrease your input energy then you can either increase your efficiency (COP) or decrease your output energy consumption. (Insulation) There's no such thing as decreasing input energy by reducing efficiency, unless you're also decreasing your output energy consumption as well.
It seems to me that this might be poor insulation somewhere. Your home may be losing a lot of heat that is being refilled by the heat pump at a very high COP The best way to find insulation problems is with an infrared camera. If you already had the home insulated by a professional, get them to take a look. Also, a family of 2 or a family of 4 does not matter that much in terms of heating. It's the home that loses heat in winter, not the people inside (they even help heat the room). If you are at home all day, your heating system will also use more energy than one with a family that is away most of the day and uses a lower setback temperature. I would not focus too much on what other people say is normal. Check the bill and ask the energy company if it is good or bad compared to homes of a similar size.
An efficiency of 449% with a heat pump though still has a major problem. Domestic electricity in the U.K. is about 4 times the price of gas for the same energy so swapping from gas to a heat pump costing many thousands of pounds is still not a saving.
Great results and great content! How did you measure the heat pumps? It is easy to calculate the power consumption, but how do you know the thermal heat that a HP provides to the system?
Hi @HeatGeek, I'm trying to understand the impact of having several 90-degree turns in a condensation line set for a ducted A/C and heat pump. The line set has five 90-degree turns and stretches about 20 feet, with 3 feet going straight up. The heat pump is rated for 150 linear feet or 50 vertical feet. I've seen online estimates that suggest each 90-degree turn adds anywhere between 2-7 feet. Can you clarify how critical it is to reduce the number of 90-degree turns? (Note, the installation is not complete, and I see a way to reduce the number of 90-degree turns down to one while reducing the length by about 8 feet. However, the line set will not be along the wall, which could be a minor tripping hazard. )
I own a plumbing and heating Company 90% of all work is breakdown work and I would love for our engineers to start being able to cover heat pumps as well, the problem being the only courses I can find are installation, not fault finding. My other option would be to employ an engineer who already installed heat pumps and learn from them, but as we are struggling to even get heating engineers at the moment I'm not sure this will be option, any suggestions
Can I ask how an air source pump can ever beat gas based on cost alone? My electricity costs 4 x more than gas per kw/h which means that even if I were fortunate enough to see a 400% efficiency from a pump I would at best only break even on monthly bills. None of this even takes into account the cost of design, supply, installation and the necessary upheaval involved. Unless electricity drops significantly in cost this equation can never change which hardly bodes well for the government plans to swap us all over to electric power alone! I also can’t understand why Octopus energy will only offer their really cheap off peak rates to those running ev’s? Yet again this strategy alienates those of us without solar panels from the concept of using storage batteries as a way of reducing peak power demands and using power that might otherwise be lost. There seem to be too many vested interests at play here rather than a truly concerted effort to save the planet.
Gas boilers aren't 100% efficient, most in the UK even though they are stated to be 95% efficient, that requires them to be running at the temperatures that are in the heat pump sweet spot - so if people were getting 95% efficiency, they wouldn't need to upgrade their rads etc, which we know many need to. You're looking at about an 85% average. So a heatpump would only need to be 340% efficient to break even with gas. It also doesn't take into consideration that there are time of use tariffs available to even those without EVs, further reducing the cost for a portion of the day - and gives people the opportunity to schedule their hot water during that cheaper period etc.
Ok Ben I hear you and accept there are a few marginal errors in my original theory but in practice we are still on the cusp of winning or losing aren’t we? Whilst you are correct in mentioning some of the alternative tariffs these are all subject to change at the whim of the suppliers and in any event there is still the elephant in the room that is the initial cost of purchase and installation. The other factor here is that we also have to accommodate replacement costs in due course which add to the downside of the equation! Don’t get me wrong, I would love to embrace this technology but until the cost of electricity drops considerably this is a difficult financial argument to win.@@BenIsInSweden
@@michaelhayes9975 The tariff point applies to gas too, it's subject to change at the whim of the suppliers. The main points there are: 1) it's unlikely that electricity will rise by 4p for every 1p increase in gas, which would what would be needed to maintain the status quo. 2) With electricity there's at least the option to produce and store your own, with Solar panels and battery storage, adding flexibility to being able to save on the running cost. Neither (along with Time of use) are extremely unlikely to ever be a thing for gas.
Yes certainly the future on pricing is going to play a massive part in people’s thinking and it will be interesting to see how the art of gentle persuasion will be balanced with the necessity of keeping fuel cost affordable to everyone. We are in an area of historical interest with a restriction on placing solar panels on elevations facing the road. Unfortunately for us this is also our south facing aspect so unless we strip the roof and replace with (expensive) solar tiles our options are limited and would in any event be somewhat sub optimal. We are already fully insulated and have a WUF heating system run from a condenser boiler so short of taking the plunge and spending heavily on renewables we are a bit stuck. It will be interesting to see you things progress and I will continue to watch your vlogs as I find them most informative. Thanks for taking an interest and good luck with all you are doing.@@BenIsInSweden
How did u measure the effectiveness? I am optimizing my heatpump system for 5 years and i get a true scop of 3. but i also measure the true electrical usage including the additional electrical resistance heater for deicing, the electrical usage of the pump and the electrical consumption of the underfloor heating valves. With my airconditioner in heating mode i get a scop of 4.
4.14 SCOP since the system was installed end of Feb, including hot water. Be good to see how it performs through a full year. For context, 1950s end terrace ex council house, EPC after ASHP installed is 89.
I‘d like to thank you and Urban plumber for all the videos. Completed my VWL 125/6 diy install couple of days ago. COP after three days is 5.4. Insane. Getting 2000 liters of flow at 100% pumping power. Still fiddling with it.
Floor insulation. Can the crawl space be sealed/insulated and then hot air used to heat the floor and the rest of the house? Can exhausted used hot air recycled through air to air heat exchanger to make whole system more efficient?
Is the SCOP calculation normalised for the last years weather - would be interested to see a video on how you normalise data so you can compare it year to year.
@@davefroman4700 Somewhat simplctict comparison! My point is, installation cost compared with alternatives, running costs kw for kw. Assume 20year lifespan and heat pumps have zero maintenance cost? And alternatives have 10 to 15year economic life span, comparing initial capital costs I wonder how the math's justify the magic heat pump, oh, maybe I overlooked the energy source would be PV!!!!
@@MrMikeberry0 All unvented cylinders are meant to be serviced every 12 months by a gas-safe engineer, regardless of the heat source. So people should be getting an engineer out every year anyway.
I think it is the scop value itself that gives a false result …excluding domestic hot water considerations to keep it simple as possible, any claim of an on site Scop value requires the following measurements 1. A dedicated cumulative electrical energy meter for energy input for output 2. Continuous measurement of input and output temperatures by say thermocouples or thermistors IN the pipes 3. Continuous measurement of heating water flow rate, again by an inflow flow device , preferably delivering a Iitre / second ( =Kg/s) reading ….The energy output in Kw at a given instant is then found =from Mass water flowing kg / sec x specific heat water KJ per kg per def C x temp rise deg C …Outputs 2&3 are fed into an interface logging values every second or better and also connected to a computer running appropriate software..Using the the above equation integrates the instantaneous energy readings over a chosen time thus finding the true value of energy out in KWh…ONLY THEN can the calculated Scop values be considered valid , otherwise it is estimated or worse inflated or even one could say imagined 😂😂😮
Yes, very simple. And because this specific heat pump has a mid certified electricity meter, thermocouples and high accuracy flow meters (all very very basic bits of kit) it literally does this. Not only that, was have additionally added a second set of 3rd party e meters, wet pocket temp sensors (wet pocket =“in the pipe”) and flow meters.. as we do with many of our installs and all the data aligns nicely. Best to watch the video before commenting.
You avoid the one question most of us sceptics have. Show us a graph of the cost of installation vs SCOP. Also what inconveniences are wreaked on the customer? For example, in a 70’s house with small bore central heating buried in concrete floors. What guarantees of the SCOP to be achieved do you give and what happens if you don’t achieve it? It is not unknown for installers to suddenly go broke when faced with such a challenge and then reappear a few months later under a different company name………. I could go on…..
There isn't really a definitive relationship between the cost of installation and SCOP, as every house will be different. Generally speaking lower flow temperature = higher SCOP. To achieve a lower flow temperature, the options are usually, either to increase the emitter sizes or decrease the heat loss from the property, which again depends on the property and what you are willing to go for. If you don't want to pay someone to do a heat loss calculation and come up with suggestions, you can use the heat punk software to give you a general idea of what would be required, doesn't replace the knowledge of a professional, but at least gives you the tools to at least know some of what's needed.
What type of heat pump? Long ago GSHPs were few and far between and ASHPs, frankly, sucked. It is very clear that the type of installation will make a huge difference to the winter (in particular) operation. You made no mention of the ratio of GSHP:ASHP installations carried out. This could lead to some very misleading suggestions of average COP. What is the difference between an ordinary, plain COP and this quoted SCOP, please? GSHPs have a great advantage in our damp and chilly climate in that they do not need to defrost the heat exchanger (I wonder, too, if these defrosting costs are included in ASHP COPs). When total clarity prevails, I may well install a heat pump - but likely a bore-hole GSHP, not an (as at the present time) unproven ASHP.
He's talking Air Source. Ground Source these figures aren't anything groundbreaking. COP is specific to a certain set of parameters - outside temperatures etc. SCOP is the average for the heating season for the climate - or in the case of those on heatpumpmonitor, the average for when the heat pump is doing something over the selected time period. COPs always include the defrost cycle in the figure. ASHPs work just fine in damp and chilly climates; where I live in Sweden has an average humidity in January of 91%, my home town in the UK, it's 87%. ASHPs are well-proven in Scandinavia and have been for decades, the UK is playing catch up.
Is there not a huge uncontrolled variable here? Cost of energy has rocketed in a cost-of-living crisis and so for this date range could people be reducing comfort temperatures and this would cause less demand on the pump..? Sorry if that’s a dumb question.
To achieve this 4.15 costs a lot more to install, the installation cost is just simply way way too much my new 93 percent gas boiler 2000 heats pump system 35k so tell me exactly efficient or not where is the saving
Hi Heat Geek. I find your videos very informative and I'm sure the training would be a huge help to installers. I used to be a plumber and if I was still installing I would imagine your training would be invaluable seeing the results the trained installers get. I now work as a plumbing apprentice instructor (in Ireland). I think heatpump installer training should be part of apprentice training even if only at a basic level to make apprentices aware of the effect of all the variables. As plumbers with gas and oil boilers, location and settings are not things that are given much thought and this will probably lead on to a lot of plumbers feeling the same about heatpumps (stick it in and walk away) Are you aware of any apprentice training centers in Great Britain linking with trainers like yourselves? Have you any plans to get involved in that sort of training, or consulting with the people who design the syllabus? Keep up the good work. The real change will happen when people save money and that will only happen with increased efficiency. Would you have a link to any of your training that might be suitable for apprentice. I show some of your videos in class but could share training that you think might suit 2nd and 3rd year apprentices. They could go on to purchase the training privately.
Glad to see someone over here wanting to learn. You're dead right on the "stick it in" approach but we are at the point where anyone who shows a bit more expertise than "stick it in" is so busy, they (because its Ireland) charge for the rich or just don't have to work.
I hate promotional sales pitches which say 'we are learning and 'I'm sure we will improve' But what about all the installations you did before you 'learnt and improved' Will you go back and upgrade them to your latest educated guess about how good HP are? Free??
The beauty of low temperature heating is that this was all learned on condensing gas boilers about 15 years ago… it was a very easy switch.. I (Adam) and the very small network experimenting with it were just very nerdy. Non of those installs are bad though, they’ve only ever INCREASED the efficiency of the product. When we work out even more efficiency that doesn’t make old installations poor all of a sudden. For this specific point though we are talking about the abrogate of all heat geeks rather than 1 installer though which is more to do with training
What I'm surprised at is how you can even make a heat pump more efficient just by learning how it works - I've gone from being more expensive than gas to cheaper than gas just by changing system settings (system was installed at fixed 50c flow temp and room control "to make it easier for you to transition from your usual gas boiler")
Thanks for sharing this. Is it possible to see the raw data for the calculations of the SCOP and what parameters have been used, ie flow temperatures etc? There seems to be quite a disparity between lowest and highest performance between 2.98 and 5.48 on mixed. Also, you quote 107 heat pumps tested but are only 31 on the data sheet. Is it possible for the COP to be shared within the ranges of outdoor temperatures as one of my concerns around heat pumps is that we always talk about SCOP which from my understanding works really well for people on monthly or quarterly bills that average themselves out over the year, however how would that look to someone who is using a credit meter in the middle of winter? Really enjoyed the video though.
@@HeatGeek Thank you for taking the time to respond to my query. Is it possible to see the raw data please? I might not be articulating myself very well, however, all my questions would normally be answered in the raw data. Days that the experiment was run Outdoor temperatures vs their co-efficiency The design flow temperature for each installation Thank you again for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it.
Here's my data. Vaillant 97/7 7kW heat pump. Runs 100% on weather, no thermostat. Data includes 280l hot water tank, with one shower and one baths daily. Floor heating in the entire house, 110m2. Everything is heated all the time. No zones. Terraced house built in 1978 in The Netherlands. HR+++ windows, floor insulated, 6cm cavity filled with foam, roof insulated as it was back in the 70s + only 5cm fiber glass, ground floor very well insulated with 14cm PIR insulation. We had a cold winter, -12 at max for a few days, don't have any more weather data though. Data from 11 July 22 to 10 July 2023. 4.46 COP December 4.8 COP January 4.93 COP February 4.77 COP March 5.0 COP April
The problem with scop is it’s an annual measurement. I only heat in winter when cop is much lower. So the reality is it’s loads more expensive than gas. Sadly. Unless I’m missing something.
It's basically annual heat output / annual electricity consumption of the unit, so is weighted towards the winter months, as most electrical usage and heat output is in the winter.
If you look at the graphs they also have installs with SCOP of ~3.5. Some houses require more changes to work propperly on lower temperature so you could agree uppon a lower SCOP with less changes in your house by running water temp higher with existing radiators. Our heatpump installer in the Netherlands calculated what our SCOP would be and gave a ballpark of changes required to the property to get a better SCOP. We decided to do some of the changes. Estimated SCOP for our install was 3.32. We are currently running on a SCOP of 3.8:)
Are the scop you mention for 35°C water or high temperature water ? My home has big cast iron radiators and it is supposed to be heat with high temperature water like 60°C. Can I have a scop of 4 with that temperature ? Also the hot water needs to be heat to 60°C
Need to know if this the route for us. How we are looking at has 6600sq ft. Two gas boilers installed in 2019. Would a heat pump be suitable in this property and who can I get to quote for it ?
If this is nothing to do with installation do you think its applicable to my 10 yearold nibe heat pump. That uses 6500kwh per year. If some one thinks they can help please drop me a msg
It wouls be good to have a video on what to check for to improve scop. My mums energy bill is about the same as mine i have my heating set at 20 24/7 and rhere are 6 of us in the house its a 3 bed mid terrace 60s built house well insulated with b efficiency and solar. My mum has a bungalow one bed again 60s built well insulated b efficiency with solar. She has a mitsubishi heat pump and i think she heats to about 21. I dont understand why her bills are similar to ours considering we are in a bigger space and we dont have solar to help heat as we heat with gas. According to her panel in the air cupboard she gets roughly 2.5 scop but i find ir very had to believe considering we are paying virtually the same to heat.
A have a Midea ASHP and figures are all rounded to a whole number so I can't get a SCOP figure. I have looked at the monitoring system and it seems to be about £700 to £800. Could you do a more detailed explanation of what is needed and how to set it up?
Could you please provide the average cost of installation for all the systems used for the data? As the data is for a year can it be projected over say 10 years using a temperature/climate adjusted coefficient?
What's your take on the Mitsubishi QUHZ 4kW with R744 (CO2) refrigerant? Given it runs at high temps and it seems to a layperson like myself that you promote lower temps & lower flow rates to get higher (S)COP values. My use will be for a new build (AECB standard) for underfloor heating and hot water. Many thanks for any advice/info. 🧐
I live in a 3 bedroom bungalow if you want to have a radiator in one of or all of the bedrooms can you restrict the night temperature. say to 10 degrees without affecting the efficiency
I dont know what SCOP means but our heat pump works at 5.5x effeciency. It dropped to 4x last winter. An engineer i know socially said this was not possible in terms of the laws of physics. So is my system lying to me? Last winter was our warmest ever day and night in our house, thanks to not being able to turn it off like you would a gas boiler, which was lovely, and the bills were £400 per month then. Some context: we use 12 panel solar and battery (negligible benefit in winter due to positioning on roof and shade from neighbours' trees), eco tariff as we have EV, and heat the water at night on cheap rate. We have triple insulation, maximum loft insulation 1990 built solid interior wall Alexander home (well built, no frills) . In the summer the solar is a much greater benefit and the Eddi fitted later diverts the excess solar once the battery is full to topping up the water heating.
what also needs taking into account is install costs, its all great going for max scop's but if install costs double due to that, is that what the customer wants and can afford upfront, or is it not more sensible to get responsible to good systems out there first then possibly upgrade more in time to speed up the roll out, meet budgets and lower CO2 emissions 🤷♂️ you also have to cater for the average customer that wants 2 zones per room and use it like an on/off switch with no attempt to system efficiency, theres only so many times you can bang your head on a wall trying to explain these things.
I’ve had a quote for a heat pump from octopus and they said that 10mm plastic pipe wouldn’t be replaced when installing the system, is plastic pipe ok to be used with ashp?
If you wish to fit a heat pump to an existing house. It improves the cop to get to a lower emitter temperature. Would it work if you had an extension to build, which could have an insulated concrete mass floor with buried pipes. You would I think feed the radiators at cooler input temperature but increased flow and then put the half cool water through the concrete floor, before returning to the heat pump? I understand underfloor mass heating feels warm at cooler temperatures as its area is so large. It might reduce the upsizing of radiators and get the cop as low as mass underfloor heating?
I had a Midea ASHP installed Aug22, how can I find what my Scop is? and how would I know if my pump was correctly installed for the best performance Thanks for your videos they are very informative.
Do you have any cost comparison to the studies mentioned? I interest in how we articulate the value of system design excellence vs what we've seen to date. A simple info graphic would be great to help people understand so they don't just go for the cheapest quote. People understand MPG in cars and how if they invest in a more efficient car the running costs will be lower, we could do with something similar in the industry perhaps?
This kind of knowledge should be as far and widespread as possible. And quickly. The example of a personal power bill is one thing, and certainly nice, but can you imagine the total effect of 10-20% improvements at a national or global level. We're talking about incredible reductions in climate impact and also financially of course!
Hello from Greece! How can I measure the efficiency of my heat pump? I have a HITACHI Yutaki-M RASM-5NE (14KW). What is your opinion for this heat pump? Thank you for your information, I am a simple user, but I have learned a few things from you.
Great video as always! Yes we need more better training of installer as we had quotes for last 3 years for heat pumps but at 3 ish soc and 6-10 k£ including bus discount I decided to wait as i would be good bit dearer than our gas bill so last winter went over electricity heating and this winter should be gas free hopefully too . Paying lot of money to fit heat pump and be dearer to run is not on ! Couldn't even get my energy supplies that fits heat pumps to provide the true running cost estimate on my usage as well as the epc that they all wanted to show even though we done a good bit of improvement to our home since eps was done over 4 year ago was disappointing as epc says we use 9000 kWh to heat and 3000 for hot water but in real life we used about 3500 to heat and about 600-700 kWh for hot water thanks to solar and storage. So if we had great installer thats know there stuff and could get 400% soc happy to do few sums to reassure us that it will be worth the out lay and be cheaper to run eyc we more than likely have heat pump now ! And yes ive even contacted one of your heat geek assured installer last year and after a chat he agreed with me a heat pump would be no cheaper to run that our gas bill being so low so i decided to do my own tests and started using electric oil filled radiators and looked into infrared panels etc maybe heat pump in 2024
You've basically identified the difference between an engineer and plumber here - most gas fitters essentially take a glance and then hazard a guess at the design of a system (massive assumption there, but in general), the trained heating engineers will actually do some maths before they actually do the installation 👍
The economics of heat pumps are driven by the ratio of electricity and gas prices, and the heat pump ‘gain’ - the units of heat energy emitted for each unit of electricity used. • Heat pumps are mostly deployed in countries with very cheap electricity. • In the UK, the electricity:gas price ratio has been increasing for many years, as increasing penetration of renewable energy makes the grid progressively less efficient. The ratio is currently around 4. • Heat pump gains have been improving, but only slowly. The median for an air-source heat pump is around 2.8. • Thus, even taking into account inefficiencies of gas boilers, the majority of people will find a gas boiler cheaper to run than an air-source heat pump. • Although substantial grants are available to install heat pumps, once the (net) capital cost is taken into account, almost nobody doing so will see an overall payback. • To assess the overall economic effect of installing a heat pump, the capital cost before grants has to be incorporated into the calculation. If this is done, it is found that no heat pump installation is economic. • The marginal abatement cost of reducing emission through heat pumps is over £300/t CO2, several times more than estimates of the damage caused by global warming. • Installing heat pumps is therefore a mistake, on every measure.
"In the UK, the electricity:gas price ratio has been increasing for many years" Oct21-Mar22 21p:4p (5.25:1) Apr22-Sep22 28p:7p (4:1) Oct22-Mar23 34p:10p (3.4:1) Apr23-Jun23 33.2p:10.3p (3:22:1) Jul23-Sep23 30p:8p (3.75:1) Oct23-Dec23 27p:7p (3.86:1). So overall a large reduction on 2 years ago. As per the video, with a properly installed heat pump by a heat geek trained installer, SCOPs of above 4 are possible. Gas Boiler efficiency is really at best 90%, and that's being generous for the UK stock of oversized and underoptimised installs. At 90% efficiency a heat pump would only need a COP of 3.5 to be saving money over a gas boiler currently - an easy achievement with a proper install. You also don't mention the possibility of switching to tariffs that can bring down the cost either, e.g. Octopus Cozy where you can time DHW recharges (which is currently the most energy intensive process in a heat pump) to cheaper times of the day. There's also the benefit of if someone chooses to have solar and battery storage (some people might already have solar+battery without a heat pump, as solar and battery installs are outpacing heat pump installs at the moment) you can drive down the cost even more. You also don't mention the Environmental and social obligation levies, that as the grid is decarbonised the levi on Electricity will go down, and gas will go up. And with things like the Paris agreement already enshrined in law, will mean in future gas will be even more expensive. To maintain today's status in price differences, for every 1p increase in gas, electricity needs to increase by 4p to have the same effect on heating with a heat pump. If that were to keep up, it would accelerate the solar uptake, as it means generating your own electricity would become even more viable - especially with new panels that increase efficiency even more, and as a result of that more people will be more likely to make the switch to a heat pump as it helps mitigate price rises. Also, since last year, new heating system installs (in new or existing properties) are required by building regs to be low-temperature heating ones. So if you do a refurb that includes heating, you're better off going with a heat pump, as you'll need to do all the required upgrades to ensure a lower flow temperature where a heat pump will shine.
@@HeatGeek That would be great. You have unfortunately educated me to a prosumer level on the subject of heat pumps and system design. Armed with this knowledge, all of the quotes I have gotten so far have been so disappointing to me. I would rather just design all of it myself, but apart from the electrical stuff and configuration, installing it is way out of my comfort zone. If you know of any organisation or installer in the Netherlands that lives up to your standards, please let me know.
@@HeatGeek That sounds promising. I would be happy to help for free in my spare time if you need someone to translate or get installers excited. I think heat pumps are part of the solution to stop climate change, but it needs to be done right.
Some help please…. I had my ASHP installed in Dec 2022, initially quoted for a 14kw mitsu Ecodan but ended up getting a 11kw as the location was unsuitable. MCS Scop quoted was 3.7 and i am getting 2.8 inc HW (3.1 exc HW). I wasn’t aware the quoted SCOP on the MCS cert doesn’t take into account HW consumption so i feel like i have been flung a dead horse! The ASHP costs so much more to run considering the current energy prices. Am i in a position to complain given that i feel as though I have been missold?! I wish i never bothered getting this ASHP installed 😞
You should be able to get the installer out to fix it if they quoted 3.7 SCOP, and you're only getting 3.1. Otherwise, it's worth checking the Heat Geek map for an elite in your area to come take a look. Even with 3.1 ex HW, 2.8 inc, you should be able to find a tariff that still matches or beats gas. e.g. one that has an overnight tariff of ~7p/kWh and have your DHW heated then will easily beat out gas for DHW. Either way, if the system was properly specced to get a SCOP of 3.7, and you're getting 3.1, then the amount you pay for calling out a heat geek will likely pay for it this winter - especially if an 11kW unit is correctly sized for the property.
You can't be far off on price or the scop is lying my gas is just under 7p and my electric is just over 24p so only need a 3.4cop to break even and that's with a 100% efficient boiler that obviously doesn't exist and then factoring in the running of the electric of the boiler your probably pretty close.
What would you recommend for a bungalow currently using night storage heaters? Presumably, we would need radiators, so installation cost would be significant and payback would take many years.
Likely Air to Air (mini/multi split) would be the better solution, rather than installing a new central heating system. Don't get the government grant if in the UK, but should be cheaper anyway.
Awesome. Would love a video discussing different emmiters; rads, under floor and fan convectors? Fan convectors seem like an ideal, simple solution for retrofit and lowering flow temps but very little info on them.
Any chance of explaining how an Air-to-air heat pump can work within an MVHR system? I've been trying to design such a combined system for use in my home in the future, because installing any sort of air-to-water heat pump system would pretty much require completely gutting my house. It's much easier to install air supply/extract ducts to each room than it is to try to replace the old microbore pipework, but I'd really like some learned opinions on what I can expect with this setup before I go for it.
You do not need to replace microbore pipework. My system was originally oil with microbore piping and the radiator valves were coaxial so that both flow and return entered at the same end of the radiator. That might have been convenient for installation but awful for heating especially with double panel radiators. I replaced all of the coaxial valves with TRV and lockshield valves. Additional pip[ework was done in 15mm. It works absolutely fine.
@@rogerphelps9939did you need to have an additional pump installed (on top of the one in the heat pump) to push the liquid through the smaller diameter pipes?
I live in the middle of BC, Canada with a force air natural gas furnace. How do the variables change with climate and not using radiators. We have incentives to install heat pumps but they want us to remove the gas furnace. This doesn't make much sense to me.
@@HeatGeek Thanks for the scoop on the scop. My concern was about a backup heating source when we get a week or so of -30C - -40C. I'm all for removing the gas but I also have a gas range/oven. Others will have more appliances so a little more thought into incentive programs and a long term strategy/commitment by the government would be helpful.
2 things do you have your own team of installers, i don't mean trained by you but employed by you? Second the pink dotted line on your graph denoting gas running costs. Does that mean you need a SCOP of above 3.5 for your running costs to be lower than gas?
Their own company for installations is Vito energy I believe. Gas is 7p or so, electricity 30p. Typical boiler 90% efficient or less in operation, or lower if older or high flow temperatures. So COP would have to be 3.8 to break even if my maths doesn't suck Be better if they took certain taxes/ levies off electricity and put it on gas, given electricity much cleaner than gas these days.
We have a condensing boiler but we also have a couple of built in Mitsubishi Electric air-con units which are fantastic in the summer. They also have a heat mode. What heat source are these? Are they Heat Pumps? If so, would it be better to use them in the winter instead of the boiler and radiators? Thanks!
Yes, they are air-to-air heat pumps. Whether they are better or not depends on a few factors - e.g. what model they are, and whether they are designed to go to the temperature you get in winter. Also, the price of gas vs electricity will be a factor.
@@BenIsInSweden Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it! The outside units are Mitsubishi Electric MUZ-AP50VG and the inside units are MSZ-AP50VG they are only two or three years old. I'm in the UK so winter temperatures only go down to about -8 degrees celcius at worst.
@@Wreck-Gar Looks like they are rated to go down to -15C for heating, and (if you have 2 outdoor units) looks like you have approximately 10kW of heat capacity with them, as a quick rule of thumb with them if your annual gas usage is below 25,000kWh then they'll be sufficient to cover your heating entirely. They have a rated SCOP of 4.7. With some assumptions (boiler efficiency at 90%, gas at price cap 6.89/kWh and electricity at 27.35/kWh), over the heating season, you will save approximately 1.8p per kWh of heat. Obviously that will change depending on your prices and whether you have an off peak tariff for electricity as well. There are likely some times in the really cold weather when gas *might* be more cost effective, but I can't find a detailed spec sheet for yours that will give an idea on where that point might be. It's worth doing an extended test depending on how easily you can monitor your gas and electricity usage - i.e. at least 24 hours in similar conditions, to get a general idea of what your spend will be, as the first hour of running a heat pump is not a good representation of it's efficiency, and 24 hours is a good length of time for things to stabilise, if you're willing to do a week or a month, even better. Avoid turning them off completely as well, typically if you want to lower the temperature overnight or so, set it at a couple of degrees below what you have it set to, and set it back in the morning (or if there's a schedule on the remote or app you can use that).
@@BenIsInSweden Thank you so much for this info. I wasn't expecting this much! That's really helpful. I've got a smart meter that monitors both so I'll do an extended test and compare usage on my bills too. Thanks again and have a nice Christmas 🙂👍
You want a source that has an abundance of heat energy, e.g. outside air, the ground or a body of water. Restricting it to a small area like an attic will reduce the temperature in the area pretty quickly to below outside air temperature making it work harder than if it was outside. Worse still in the attic you are essentially negating all thermal benefits the attic and roof provide with keeping heat inside your home.
@@HeatGeek I don't doubt the figures, we get a COP of 3.8 for dhw and 4.1 for heating with our GSHP. Just not convinced how comparable year to year when last winter was so mild defrost cycles would be rare if at all.
Experience in Ireland. Step 1; contact someone who appears knowledgeable. Step 2; they come out and things seem good. Step 3; they never answer the phone again, or quote you €40k.
Did you find a good installer in the end? Looking for one in Dublin.
As a designer in an office, this rings true - I regularly design, specify and draw something really efficient and find the plumber installed something else which doesn't work so well because they didn't believe the design they were given would work!
So yes, giving installers faith in physics is definitely a good plan
Also the designer should take into consideration the difficulty level when designing heat pumps. I've come across some designs that made it extremely frustrating to take off the heat pump panels. Also the accessibility to parts, for instances where you need to change the compressor or circulation pump. Some heat pumps have their pressure regulating valves in very difficult positions. So when you high up on an extension ladder trying to take the said part out. Frustration levels are at another level.
How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡
If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!
This is why it’s installers that need training not designers
If you as an engineer design a system that the person installing can not install in a reasonable way then you have to accept some responsibility when the system does not get installed according to your specifications. You have to remember the system is installed by humans and afterwards it is operated by humans and we have a tendency to try and make things easy and comfortable for ourselves.
Just to add to the data on this, the current break-even SCOP against an 80% efficient oil boiler is currently around 3.8. That's assuming 30p/kWh for electricity and 65p/litre for heating oil.
Oil is closer to 75p/L right now, and you also have to factor in paying a plumber to re-start your boiler every year or so after the system runs dry because none of the oil volume sensors work properly. I've dealt with the nightmare of oil in a rented property for the last 3 years - it isn't an option I would ever consider again.
@@marcuscooper9544 That was just the average UK price at that time - We paid 56p per litre on 22/05/2023 and previously it was 86p per litre on 20/01/2023 - But it does of course depend on where you are within the country as well as how much you order at a time. Assuming the same 30p/kWh for electricity and 80% efficiency for an oil boiler, the break-even SCOPs are 4.52 and 2.92 respectively.
I do share your pain with the level sensors, I wish they did a wired version rather than them all being wireless!
… please do not wait to longer to release your next video 😂
Something that would be extremely helpful would be to tell us EXACTLY where systems with average 2.5 SCOP go wrong. What are the things to look out for (I have quite some experience in plumbing and building works, and have tried to understand the influencing factors concerning ASHPs in general, and mine in particular), I can see a lot of pipework by the tank and where the heat pump pipes enter from outside, which is almost literally immediately outside, maybe a metre of insulated pipes outside before they appear inside for a few tens of centimetres. I have a Vaillant Arotherm (not Plus, it was a grant jobby, free to me, no say in which heat pump) 11 kW unit, with an average ANNUAL AVERAGE (because you don't say what your average figures refer to precisely) SCOP of 2.5 almost exactly, not including HW. This is a figure from the first full year's use, including the early winter last year when I was still experimenting with setting, so I'm sure I used rather more electricity for a while, while I was playing with it. I live alone, and only turn on a hot water top up every 2 or 3 days, no regular setting for that as I have an electric shower, and hardly use much HW, with which my overall SCOP is perhaps 2.2-2.3, which is for the whole system. There must be residual power consumption to power the pump and valves etc included in that number. I am on the NW coast of Scotland, and winters are not necessarily SO cold (the clue is in the coastal bit), but they are a month or two longer than in the south of England, annual ambient average temperature probably down on the south of England by 3-5 C over the year, and we have far more wind too, which rips temperature out of just about anywhere! We really get battered with wind on a regular basis, and rainfall is high too. Final thing - how do YOU calculate SCOP? For me it's a straight kWhs out divided by kWhs used. Some manufacturers seem to use an equation which makes their number look much higher and thus better, but it's a con. We had 3 months during winter when it never got much above freezing day or night (SCOP almost exactly 2.0), and even in, say, 15-18 C outside, when some heat is appreciated inside, the SCOP is never more than 3.0. BTW, compared to my old solid fuel, aka coal, central heating system, my heat pump works out, at the most, half the cost of coal and wood per annum, probably rather less than that tbh, so I feel quids in anyway. At £1,200 a year for a very toasty house, I'm not complaining! I need about 22 C all day and evening, health issues, setback to 20 C at night, so for this level of comfort I am happy enough. Of course, if that could be reduced by a third, be my guest! (If you want free accommodation for two in the NW Highlands, the swap would be for you to have a gander at my system!) But I really think it would be hard to improve my SCOP without some radical re-think. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated... Ta v'ry mooch (-:)~
How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡
If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!
I'm making a change to my settings that I know will make my SCoP worse. I'll be setting hot water heating to run in the coldest part of the night. I'm pretty sure it'll be worth it as I'm on an EV tariff that's less than a quarter of the price of my daytime tariff. Just feels a bit sad to spoil my SCoP
I still would love to know what increases in efficiency you would get if you installed a heatpump inside a loft space with a vent to expel the cold side and a drain for the condensed water vapour. Have the hot water tank up there too, and any heat loss from the tank would then be used to re heat the air to be used by the heat pump
That is what we did in my house, initially with a 'conventional' very large unit, which we replaced with two smaller air to water units. The incoming air is via an underground 'earth pipe' which supplies at around 18 degrees on the coldest days (-5c) , the air is used to ventilate the house and then extracted via the ASHP which chills it to below 0c and expels it through a vent to the outside. The house is a six bedroom detached house with a garage heated by a small ASHP also.
It seems to work well, and my Electricity bills are reasonable. The COP is difficult to accurately measure due to other factors such as including a solar thermal array into the system, plus PV , plus the varying costs of three EVs, two dishwashers and two washing machines. What I do know is that my total electricity bill is less than my neighbour. AND the house is warm in winter. .
Slightly tangential point but have you considered installing a wastewater heat recovery system to improve the hot water SCOP? e.g. powerpipe, recoup, zypho etc
This is a great shout. I was considering getting one for our house refurb but we were massively over budget by then. Need to give some consideration to space though because I know most waste water heat recovery units are vertical
Do you have a video informing customers what questions they should be asking installers before they sign on the dotted line ?
Yes it’s called what to ask your heat pump surveyor
Really looking forward to seeing the video about your custom DHW Cylinder.
I’m a home owner with a heat pump and I hear a lot about SCOP. I set my heating curve as low as possible and achieved a SCOP of 5.7 for the year which was great on paper. On our annual service - the engineer commented that the heating and hot water consumption was about 50% higher then expected for a family of 2. Is it time we stop optimising SCOP and start optimising energy input? Im not convinced the two are mutually exclusive. Does the lower the temp = higher scop but … higher energy consumption with pumps having to increase the flow rate to compensate? What’s marketing and what’s reality?
Somethings inconsistent with your story. You are destroying energy somehow to have a scop of 5.7 and still consuming 50% more energy than normal.
We adress alot of this in our ‘why not to zone heat pump’ video
A SCOP of 5.7 is very high - Do you mean COP (Instantaneous efficiency) instead of SCOP (Efficiency over the year)?
Either way, COP/SCOP is just efficiency. If you have 300% efficiency and you put 2kW of electrical energy in, you'll get 6kW of thermal energy out. If you have 200% efficiency you'd need to put 3kW of electrical energy in to get the same thermal output.
In other words, the two are very much related - If you want to decrease your input energy then you can either increase your efficiency (COP) or decrease your output energy consumption. (Insulation) There's no such thing as decreasing input energy by reducing efficiency, unless you're also decreasing your output energy consumption as well.
It seems to me that this might be poor insulation somewhere. Your home may be losing a lot of heat that is being refilled by the heat pump at a very high COP
The best way to find insulation problems is with an infrared camera. If you already had the home insulated by a professional, get them to take a look.
Also, a family of 2 or a family of 4 does not matter that much in terms of heating. It's the home that loses heat in winter, not the people inside (they even help heat the room).
If you are at home all day, your heating system will also use more energy than one with a family that is away most of the day and uses a lower setback temperature.
I would not focus too much on what other people say is normal. Check the bill and ask the energy company if it is good or bad compared to homes of a similar size.
@@SolAce-nw2hf unlikely to get a 5.7 scop with a hole in your insulation!?!? Your flow temperature would need to be too high.
Here in norway we are between 4-5 Scop at all new system we build. Nibe pumps with energy wells does the trick even in the coldest days
DHW for the win! Very interesting and confirms my choice of using a Heat Geek Elite installer.
Simon got me a Scop 4.5
Great! We have above 5s on the books currently too!!
An efficiency of 449% with a heat pump though still has a major problem. Domestic electricity in the U.K. is about 4 times the price of gas for the same energy so swapping from gas to a heat pump costing many thousands of pounds is still not a saving.
Great results and great content!
How did you measure the heat pumps? It is easy to calculate the power consumption, but how do you know the thermal heat that a HP provides to the system?
flow in and flow out temperature difference and flow rate allows you to calculate this.
Never mind the SCOP .
You had a syrup installed ? 🤔
Hi @HeatGeek,
I'm trying to understand the impact of having several 90-degree turns in a condensation line set for a ducted A/C and heat pump. The line set has five 90-degree turns and stretches about 20 feet, with 3 feet going straight up. The heat pump is rated for 150 linear feet or 50 vertical feet. I've seen online estimates that suggest each 90-degree turn adds anywhere between 2-7 feet. Can you clarify how critical it is to reduce the number of 90-degree turns? (Note, the installation is not complete, and I see a way to reduce the number of 90-degree turns down to one while reducing the length by about 8 feet. However, the line set will not be along the wall, which could be a minor tripping hazard. )
I own a plumbing and heating Company 90% of all work is breakdown work and I would love for our engineers to start being able to cover heat pumps as well, the problem being the only courses I can find are installation, not fault finding. My other option would be to employ an engineer who already installed heat pumps and learn from them, but as we are struggling to even get heating engineers at the moment I'm not sure this will be option, any suggestions
Can I ask how an air source pump can ever beat gas based on cost alone? My electricity costs 4 x more than gas per kw/h which means that even if I were fortunate enough to see a 400% efficiency from a pump I would at best only break even on monthly bills. None of this even takes into account the cost of design, supply, installation and the necessary upheaval involved. Unless electricity drops significantly in cost this equation can never change which hardly bodes well for the government plans to swap us all over to electric power alone!
I also can’t understand why Octopus energy will only offer their really cheap off peak rates to those running ev’s? Yet again this strategy alienates those of us without solar panels from the concept of using storage batteries as a way of reducing peak power demands and using power that might otherwise be lost. There seem to be too many vested interests at play here rather than a truly concerted effort to save the planet.
Gas boilers aren't 100% efficient, most in the UK even though they are stated to be 95% efficient, that requires them to be running at the temperatures that are in the heat pump sweet spot - so if people were getting 95% efficiency, they wouldn't need to upgrade their rads etc, which we know many need to. You're looking at about an 85% average. So a heatpump would only need to be 340% efficient to break even with gas. It also doesn't take into consideration that there are time of use tariffs available to even those without EVs, further reducing the cost for a portion of the day - and gives people the opportunity to schedule their hot water during that cheaper period etc.
Ok Ben I hear you and accept there are a few marginal errors in my original theory but in practice we are still on the cusp of winning or losing aren’t we? Whilst you are correct in mentioning some of the alternative tariffs these are all subject to change at the whim of the suppliers and in any event there is still the elephant in the room that is the initial cost of purchase and installation. The other factor here is that we also have to accommodate replacement costs in due course which add to the downside of the equation! Don’t get me wrong, I would love to embrace this technology but until the cost of electricity drops considerably this is a difficult financial argument to win.@@BenIsInSweden
@@michaelhayes9975 The tariff point applies to gas too, it's subject to change at the whim of the suppliers. The main points there are: 1) it's unlikely that electricity will rise by 4p for every 1p increase in gas, which would what would be needed to maintain the status quo. 2) With electricity there's at least the option to produce and store your own, with Solar panels and battery storage, adding flexibility to being able to save on the running cost. Neither (along with Time of use) are extremely unlikely to ever be a thing for gas.
Yes certainly the future on pricing is going to play a massive part in people’s thinking and it will be interesting to see how the art of gentle persuasion will be balanced with the necessity of keeping fuel cost affordable to everyone. We are in an area of historical interest with a restriction on placing solar panels on elevations facing the road. Unfortunately for us this is also our south facing aspect so unless we strip the roof and replace with (expensive) solar tiles our options are limited and would in any event be somewhat sub optimal. We are already fully insulated and have a WUF heating system run from a condenser boiler so short of taking the plunge and spending heavily on renewables we are a bit stuck. It will be interesting to see you things progress and I will continue to watch your vlogs as I find them most informative. Thanks for taking an interest and good luck with all you are doing.@@BenIsInSweden
How did u measure the effectiveness? I am optimizing my heatpump system for 5 years and i get a true scop of 3. but i also measure the true electrical usage including the additional electrical resistance heater for deicing, the electrical usage of the pump and the electrical consumption of the underfloor heating valves.
With my airconditioner in heating mode i get a scop of 4.
4.14 SCOP since the system was installed end of Feb, including hot water. Be good to see how it performs through a full year.
For context, 1950s end terrace ex council house, EPC after ASHP installed is 89.
Hello, 4.14 is a lot ! How is it doing right now in January ?
Great work Adam!
I‘d like to thank you and Urban plumber for all the videos.
Completed my VWL 125/6 diy install couple of days ago. COP after three days is 5.4. Insane. Getting 2000 liters of flow at 100% pumping power. Still fiddling with it.
Sad… you don’t have installers in the Scotland 😢
Yet!
Good waffle from a trainer of heat geeks love your positive energy
Floor insulation. Can the crawl space be sealed/insulated and then hot air used to heat the floor and the rest of the house? Can exhausted used hot air recycled through air to air heat exchanger to make whole system more efficient?
Is a SCOP of >3.5 achievable using existing 10mm pipework to radiators?
Does the fact that the last 12 months have been the warmest on record not have a huge bearing on the efficiency of heat pumps?
Is the SCOP calculation normalised for the last years weather - would be interested to see a video on how you normalise data so you can compare it year to year.
Our in house Data scientist is going to be continually adding to and dissecting the data set moving forward.
I got a scop of 3.86. 1521 kwh consumed and 5900 generated. I heat one level 170 m2 house. From November till May.
How to calculate what is the COP AND SCOP FOR MINE?????
Do you also have people in the Netherlands following your training?
Better heat pump technology can be installed in the loft not need to defrost cycle.
SCOP is all well and good, but lifetime costs are where the reality is!
How often do you need your refrigerator serviced? Because that is what a heat pump is.
@@davefroman4700mine is on the blink if you wouldn't mind taking a look?
@@davefroman4700 Somewhat simplctict comparison!
My point is, installation cost compared with alternatives, running costs kw for kw.
Assume 20year lifespan and heat pumps have zero maintenance cost?
And alternatives have 10 to 15year economic life span, comparing initial capital costs I wonder how the math's justify the magic heat pump, oh, maybe I overlooked the energy source would be PV!!!!
All manufacturers are insisting on annual services- much more expensive then gas boilers presumably due to limited supply.
@@MrMikeberry0 All unvented cylinders are meant to be serviced every 12 months by a gas-safe engineer, regardless of the heat source. So people should be getting an engineer out every year anyway.
So...now I am very curious about that hot water optimisation...because that's where I also see the largest risk to a efficiency.
I think it is the scop value itself that gives a false result …excluding domestic hot water considerations to keep it simple as possible, any claim of an on site Scop value requires the following measurements 1. A dedicated cumulative electrical energy meter for energy input for output 2. Continuous measurement of input and output temperatures by say thermocouples or thermistors IN the pipes 3. Continuous measurement of heating water flow rate, again by an inflow flow device , preferably delivering a Iitre / second ( =Kg/s) reading ….The energy output in Kw at a given instant is then found =from Mass water flowing kg / sec x specific heat water KJ per kg per def C x temp rise deg C …Outputs 2&3 are fed into an interface logging values every second or better and also connected to a computer running appropriate software..Using the the above equation integrates the instantaneous energy readings over a chosen time thus finding the true value of energy out in KWh…ONLY THEN can the calculated Scop values be considered valid , otherwise it is estimated or worse inflated or even one could say imagined 😂😂😮
Yes, very simple. And because this specific heat pump has a mid certified electricity meter, thermocouples and high accuracy flow meters (all very very basic bits of kit) it literally does this. Not only that, was have additionally added a second set of 3rd party e meters, wet pocket temp sensors (wet pocket =“in the pipe”) and flow meters.. as we do with many of our installs and all the data aligns nicely. Best to watch the video before commenting.
You avoid the one question most of us sceptics have. Show us a graph of the cost of installation vs SCOP. Also what inconveniences are wreaked on the customer? For example, in a 70’s house with small bore central heating buried in concrete floors. What guarantees of the SCOP to be achieved do you give and what happens if you don’t achieve it? It is not unknown for installers to suddenly go broke when faced with such a challenge and then reappear a few months later under a different company name………. I could go on…..
There isn't really a definitive relationship between the cost of installation and SCOP, as every house will be different. Generally speaking lower flow temperature = higher SCOP. To achieve a lower flow temperature, the options are usually, either to increase the emitter sizes or decrease the heat loss from the property, which again depends on the property and what you are willing to go for. If you don't want to pay someone to do a heat loss calculation and come up with suggestions, you can use the heat punk software to give you a general idea of what would be required, doesn't replace the knowledge of a professional, but at least gives you the tools to at least know some of what's needed.
What type of heat pump? Long ago GSHPs were few and far between and ASHPs, frankly, sucked.
It is very clear that the type of installation will make a huge difference to the winter (in particular) operation. You made no mention of the ratio of GSHP:ASHP installations carried out. This could lead to some very misleading suggestions of average COP.
What is the difference between an ordinary, plain COP and this quoted SCOP, please?
GSHPs have a great advantage in our damp and chilly climate in that they do not need to defrost the heat exchanger (I wonder, too, if these defrosting costs are included in ASHP COPs).
When total clarity prevails, I may well install a heat pump - but likely a bore-hole GSHP, not an (as at the present time) unproven ASHP.
He's talking Air Source. Ground Source these figures aren't anything groundbreaking. COP is specific to a certain set of parameters - outside temperatures etc. SCOP is the average for the heating season for the climate - or in the case of those on heatpumpmonitor, the average for when the heat pump is doing something over the selected time period. COPs always include the defrost cycle in the figure. ASHPs work just fine in damp and chilly climates; where I live in Sweden has an average humidity in January of 91%, my home town in the UK, it's 87%.
ASHPs are well-proven in Scandinavia and have been for decades, the UK is playing catch up.
Is there not a huge uncontrolled variable here? Cost of energy has rocketed in a cost-of-living crisis and so for this date range could people be reducing comfort temperatures and this would cause less demand on the pump..? Sorry if that’s a dumb question.
Energy is now coming back down. It’s a different thing to look at. This is a video on hp performance
Erm, ok then my bad. I must be wrong in thinking a pump running at say, 19 vs 22, would have a lesser COP. THANK YOU.
To achieve this 4.15 costs a lot more to install, the installation cost is just simply way way too much my new 93 percent gas boiler 2000 heats pump system 35k so tell me exactly efficient or not where is the saving
Which is why we are integrating finance. The savings pay for the finance. Below 3.5 and it costs more than a gas boiler to run
Do you have any particular information about the daikin atherma systems....their driving me mad 🤦♀️ 1 year in and it's nothing but bother 😭
Nothing specific sorry
"We train these guys and you can find them on our map or through our portal." - I can't find such a map on your website, what's the link?
Type in google find a heat geek. Scroll down on the page
Just gets better and better, this should go on National TV.
Great video! Perfect for building consumer confidence! 😁😁😁
Hi Heat Geek. I find your videos very informative and I'm sure the training would be a huge help to installers. I used to be a plumber and if I was still installing I would imagine your training would be invaluable seeing the results the trained installers get.
I now work as a plumbing apprentice instructor (in Ireland). I think heatpump installer training should be part of apprentice training even if only at a basic level to make apprentices aware of the effect of all the variables. As plumbers with gas and oil boilers, location and settings are not things that are given much thought and this will probably lead on to a lot of plumbers feeling the same about heatpumps (stick it in and walk away)
Are you aware of any apprentice training centers in Great Britain linking with trainers like yourselves? Have you any plans to get involved in that sort of training, or consulting with the people who design the syllabus? Keep up the good work. The real change will happen when people save money and that will only happen with increased efficiency.
Would you have a link to any of your training that might be suitable for apprentice. I show some of your videos in class but could share training that you think might suit 2nd and 3rd year apprentices. They could go on to purchase the training privately.
Glad to see someone over here wanting to learn. You're dead right on the "stick it in" approach but we are at the point where anyone who shows a bit more expertise than "stick it in" is so busy, they (because its Ireland) charge for the rich or just don't have to work.
I hate promotional sales pitches which say 'we are learning and 'I'm sure we will improve' But what about all the installations you did before you 'learnt and improved' Will you go back and upgrade them to your latest educated guess about how good HP are? Free??
The beauty of low temperature heating is that this was all learned on condensing gas boilers about 15 years ago… it was a very easy switch.. I (Adam) and the very small network experimenting with it were just very nerdy.
Non of those installs are bad though, they’ve only ever INCREASED the efficiency of the product.
When we work out even more efficiency that doesn’t make old installations poor all of a sudden.
For this specific point though we are talking about the abrogate of all heat geeks rather than 1 installer though which is more to do with training
What I'm surprised at is how you can even make a heat pump more efficient just by learning how it works - I've gone from being more expensive than gas to cheaper than gas just by changing system settings (system was installed at fixed 50c flow temp and room control "to make it easier for you to transition from your usual gas boiler")
Thanks for sharing this. Is it possible to see the raw data for the calculations of the SCOP and what parameters have been used, ie flow temperatures etc? There seems to be quite a disparity between lowest and highest performance between 2.98 and 5.48 on mixed. Also, you quote 107 heat pumps tested but are only 31 on the data sheet. Is it possible for the COP to be shared within the ranges of outdoor temperatures as one of my concerns around heat pumps is that we always talk about SCOP which from my understanding works really well for people on monthly or quarterly bills that average themselves out over the year, however how would that look to someone who is using a credit meter in the middle of winter? Really enjoyed the video though.
The calculation is just basic mass flow rate??? Yes we’re sorting the fact only 31 have populated right now
@@HeatGeek Thank you for taking the time to respond to my query. Is it possible to see the raw data please? I might not be articulating myself very well, however, all my questions would normally be answered in the raw data.
Days that the experiment was run
Outdoor temperatures vs their co-efficiency
The design flow temperature for each installation
Thank you again for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it.
Here's my data. Vaillant 97/7 7kW heat pump. Runs 100% on weather, no thermostat. Data includes 280l hot water tank, with one shower and one baths daily. Floor heating in the entire house, 110m2. Everything is heated all the time. No zones. Terraced house built in 1978 in The Netherlands. HR+++ windows, floor insulated, 6cm cavity filled with foam, roof insulated as it was back in the 70s + only 5cm fiber glass, ground floor very well insulated with 14cm PIR insulation.
We had a cold winter, -12 at max for a few days, don't have any more weather data though. Data from 11 July 22 to 10 July 2023.
4.46 COP December
4.8 COP January
4.93 COP February
4.77 COP March
5.0 COP April
The problem with scop is it’s an annual measurement. I only heat in winter when cop is much lower. So the reality is it’s loads more expensive than gas. Sadly. Unless I’m missing something.
It's basically annual heat output / annual electricity consumption of the unit, so is weighted towards the winter months, as most electrical usage and heat output is in the winter.
no, its literally in the name - SCOP stands for seasonal coefficient of performance. Its the heating season, not annually...!
So in theory then no installer should be quoting a scop of less than 4?
If you look at the graphs they also have installs with SCOP of ~3.5. Some houses require more changes to work propperly on lower temperature so you could agree uppon a lower SCOP with less changes in your house by running water temp higher with existing radiators. Our heatpump installer in the Netherlands calculated what our SCOP would be and gave a ballpark of changes required to the property to get a better SCOP. We decided to do some of the changes. Estimated SCOP for our install was 3.32. We are currently running on a SCOP of 3.8:)
That’s our AVERAGE. Only installers that have done this theory training too
Are the scop you mention for 35°C water or high temperature water ?
My home has big cast iron radiators and it is supposed to be heat with high temperature water like 60°C.
Can I have a scop of 4 with that temperature ? Also the hot water needs to be heat to 60°C
Need to know if this the route for us. How we are looking at has 6600sq ft. Two gas boilers installed in 2019. Would a heat pump be suitable in this property and who can I get to quote for it ?
👍 thank you for your kind reply you have managed to convert a physicist sceptic to watch your video 😂 👍 l appreciate it …will be in touch
If this is nothing to do with installation do you think its applicable to my 10 yearold nibe heat pump. That uses 6500kwh per year. If some one thinks they can help please drop me a msg
It wouls be good to have a video on what to check for to improve scop. My mums energy bill is about the same as mine i have my heating set at 20 24/7 and rhere are 6 of us in the house its a 3 bed mid terrace 60s built house well insulated with b efficiency and solar. My mum has a bungalow one bed again 60s built well insulated b efficiency with solar. She has a mitsubishi heat pump and i think she heats to about 21. I dont understand why her bills are similar to ours considering we are in a bigger space and we dont have solar to help heat as we heat with gas. According to her panel in the air cupboard she gets roughly 2.5 scop but i find ir very had to believe considering we are paying virtually the same to heat.
A have a Midea ASHP and figures are all rounded to a whole number so I can't get a SCOP figure. I have looked at the monitoring system and it seems to be about £700 to £800.
Could you do a more detailed explanation of what is needed and how to set it up?
Could you please provide the average cost of installation for all the systems used for the data? As the data is for a year can it be projected over say 10 years using a temperature/climate adjusted coefficient?
New deal with OVO? Am certainly interested now with the 15p per unit cost. When will it be “official”? Any comments @heatgeek :)
What's your take on the Mitsubishi QUHZ 4kW with R744 (CO2) refrigerant? Given it runs at high temps and it seems to a layperson like myself that you promote lower temps & lower flow rates to get higher (S)COP values. My use will be for a new build (AECB standard) for underfloor heating and hot water. Many thanks for any advice/info. 🧐
I live in a 3 bedroom bungalow if you want to have a radiator in one of or all of the bedrooms can you restrict the night temperature. say to 10 degrees without affecting the efficiency
I dont know what SCOP means but our heat pump works at 5.5x effeciency. It dropped to 4x last winter. An engineer i know socially said this was not possible in terms of the laws of physics. So is my system lying to me? Last winter was our warmest ever day and night in our house, thanks to not being able to turn it off like you would a gas boiler, which was lovely, and the bills were £400 per month then. Some context: we use 12 panel solar and battery (negligible benefit in winter due to positioning on roof and shade from neighbours' trees), eco tariff as we have EV, and heat the water at night on cheap rate. We have triple insulation, maximum loft insulation 1990 built solid interior wall Alexander home (well built, no frills) . In the summer the solar is a much greater benefit and the Eddi fitted later diverts the excess solar once the battery is full to topping up the water heating.
what also needs taking into account is install costs, its all great going for max scop's but if install costs double due to that, is that what the customer wants and can afford upfront, or is it not more sensible to get responsible to good systems out there first then possibly upgrade more in time to speed up the roll out, meet budgets and lower CO2 emissions 🤷♂️
you also have to cater for the average customer that wants 2 zones per room and use it like an on/off switch with no attempt to system efficiency, theres only so many times you can bang your head on a wall trying to explain these things.
I’ve had a quote for a heat pump from octopus and they said that 10mm plastic pipe wouldn’t be replaced when installing the system, is plastic pipe ok to be used with ashp?
This is extraordinary level of efficiency ..we have an LG THERMA V and surely it could work better.. Definitely will find our local installer..
Do you give those trainings to people outside UK? Or have some equivalent trainings to recommend? I'm in Belgium.
If you wish to fit a heat pump to an existing house. It improves the cop to get to a lower emitter temperature.
Would it work if you had an extension to build, which could have an insulated concrete mass floor with buried pipes. You would I think feed the radiators at cooler input temperature but increased flow and then put the half cool water through the concrete floor, before returning to the heat pump? I understand underfloor mass heating feels warm at cooler temperatures as its area is so large. It might reduce the upsizing of radiators and get the cop as low as mass underfloor heating?
I had a Midea ASHP installed Aug22, how can I find what my Scop is? and how would I know if my pump was correctly installed for the best performance Thanks for your videos they are very informative.
Four pipe buffer?
Do you have any cost comparison to the studies mentioned? I interest in how we articulate the value of system design excellence vs what we've seen to date. A simple info graphic would be great to help people understand so they don't just go for the cheapest quote. People understand MPG in cars and how if they invest in a more efficient car the running costs will be lower, we could do with something similar in the industry perhaps?
This kind of knowledge should be as far and widespread as possible. And quickly. The example of a personal power bill is one thing, and certainly nice, but can you imagine the total effect of 10-20% improvements at a national or global level. We're talking about incredible reductions in climate impact and also financially of course!
You mention that the SCOP includes hot water. What hot water temperature did you use in your study?
If this is true then you may be setting off the mother of all class action lawsuits with this video.
Hello from Greece! How can I measure the efficiency of my heat pump? I have a HITACHI Yutaki-M RASM-5NE (14KW). What is your opinion for this heat pump? Thank you for your information, I am a simple user, but I have learned a few things from you.
What do you think about producing hot water only with heat pump water heater, split or not?
What SCOP are you getting in your house after your recent swap?
Can you provide us with with info regarding fan coils?
Any reason why the pump is not looked at in regards to efficiency, a mag drive pump would be much more efficient than a none mag drive ,
Great video as always! Yes we need more better training of installer as we had quotes for last 3 years for heat pumps but at 3 ish soc and 6-10 k£ including bus discount I decided to wait as i would be good bit dearer than our gas bill so last winter went over electricity heating and this winter should be gas free hopefully too . Paying lot of money to fit heat pump and be dearer to run is not on ! Couldn't even get my energy supplies that fits heat pumps to provide the true running cost estimate on my usage as well as the epc that they all wanted to show even though we done a good bit of improvement to our home since eps was done over 4 year ago was disappointing as epc says we use 9000 kWh to heat and 3000 for hot water but in real life we used about 3500 to heat and about 600-700 kWh for hot water thanks to solar and storage. So if we had great installer thats know there stuff and could get 400% soc happy to do few sums to reassure us that it will be worth the out lay and be cheaper to run eyc we more than likely have heat pump now ! And yes ive even contacted one of your heat geek assured installer last year and after a chat he agreed with me a heat pump would be no cheaper to run that our gas bill being so low so i decided to do my own tests and started using electric oil filled radiators and looked into infrared panels etc maybe heat pump in 2024
Octopus Energy are about to quote me for a heat pump, any comments?
Ask if the guarantee the scop they quote on your proposal. Btw we do.
And if you are remotely likely to achieve it
Hi, what is your opinion on the Mixergy cylinder?
You've basically identified the difference between an engineer and plumber here - most gas fitters essentially take a glance and then hazard a guess at the design of a system (massive assumption there, but in general), the trained heating engineers will actually do some maths before they actually do the installation 👍
The economics of heat pumps are driven by the ratio of electricity and gas prices, and the heat pump ‘gain’ - the units of heat energy emitted for each unit of electricity used.
• Heat pumps are mostly deployed in countries with very cheap electricity.
• In the UK, the electricity:gas price ratio has been increasing for many years, as increasing penetration of renewable energy makes the grid progressively less efficient. The ratio is currently around 4.
• Heat pump gains have been improving, but only slowly. The median for an air-source heat pump is around 2.8.
• Thus, even taking into account inefficiencies of gas boilers, the majority of people will find a gas boiler cheaper to run than an air-source heat pump.
• Although substantial grants are available to install heat pumps, once the (net) capital cost is taken into account, almost nobody doing so will see an overall payback.
• To assess the overall economic effect of installing a heat pump, the capital cost before grants has to be incorporated into the calculation. If this is done, it is found that no heat pump installation is economic.
• The marginal abatement cost of reducing emission through heat pumps is over £300/t CO2, several times more than estimates of the damage caused by global warming.
• Installing heat pumps is therefore a mistake, on every measure.
"In the UK, the electricity:gas price ratio has been increasing for many years"
Oct21-Mar22 21p:4p (5.25:1)
Apr22-Sep22 28p:7p (4:1)
Oct22-Mar23 34p:10p (3.4:1)
Apr23-Jun23 33.2p:10.3p (3:22:1)
Jul23-Sep23 30p:8p (3.75:1)
Oct23-Dec23 27p:7p (3.86:1).
So overall a large reduction on 2 years ago.
As per the video, with a properly installed heat pump by a heat geek trained installer, SCOPs of above 4 are possible. Gas Boiler efficiency is really at best 90%, and that's being generous for the UK stock of oversized and underoptimised installs. At 90% efficiency a heat pump would only need a COP of 3.5 to be saving money over a gas boiler currently - an easy achievement with a proper install.
You also don't mention the possibility of switching to tariffs that can bring down the cost either, e.g. Octopus Cozy where you can time DHW recharges (which is currently the most energy intensive process in a heat pump) to cheaper times of the day.
There's also the benefit of if someone chooses to have solar and battery storage (some people might already have solar+battery without a heat pump, as solar and battery installs are outpacing heat pump installs at the moment) you can drive down the cost even more.
You also don't mention the Environmental and social obligation levies, that as the grid is decarbonised the levi on Electricity will go down, and gas will go up. And with things like the Paris agreement already enshrined in law, will mean in future gas will be even more expensive.
To maintain today's status in price differences, for every 1p increase in gas, electricity needs to increase by 4p to have the same effect on heating with a heat pump. If that were to keep up, it would accelerate the solar uptake, as it means generating your own electricity would become even more viable - especially with new panels that increase efficiency even more, and as a result of that more people will be more likely to make the switch to a heat pump as it helps mitigate price rises.
Also, since last year, new heating system installs (in new or existing properties) are required by building regs to be low-temperature heating ones. So if you do a refurb that includes heating, you're better off going with a heat pump, as you'll need to do all the required upgrades to ensure a lower flow temperature where a heat pump will shine.
Cracking figures Adam - let's hope the model of working with folks with a clue hold just as true at scale!
Is the data nornalised for the years outdoor temperature?
QUESTION: why have you guys stopped posting videos???
Just busy to be honest.. more on the way soon
Great results. Do you have any plans for expanding your brand outside of the UK?
Longer term..
@@HeatGeek That would be great.
You have unfortunately educated me to a prosumer level on the subject of heat pumps and system design.
Armed with this knowledge, all of the quotes I have gotten so far have been so disappointing to me.
I would rather just design all of it myself, but apart from the electrical stuff and configuration, installing it is way out of my comfort zone.
If you know of any organisation or installer in the Netherlands that lives up to your standards, please let me know.
@@SolAce-nw2hf Netherlands is our most requested country
@@HeatGeek That sounds promising. I would be happy to help for free in my spare time if you need someone to translate or get installers excited. I think heat pumps are part of the solution to stop climate change, but it needs to be done right.
@@SolAce-nw2hf are you a heating engineer?
🤘😎🤘
Some help please…. I had my ASHP installed in Dec 2022, initially quoted for a 14kw mitsu Ecodan but ended up getting a 11kw as the location was unsuitable. MCS Scop quoted was 3.7 and i am getting 2.8 inc HW (3.1 exc HW). I wasn’t aware the quoted SCOP on the MCS cert doesn’t take into account HW consumption so i feel like i have been flung a dead horse! The ASHP costs so much more to run considering the current energy prices. Am i in a position to complain given that i feel as though I have been missold?! I wish i never bothered getting this ASHP installed 😞
You should be able to get the installer out to fix it if they quoted 3.7 SCOP, and you're only getting 3.1. Otherwise, it's worth checking the Heat Geek map for an elite in your area to come take a look. Even with 3.1 ex HW, 2.8 inc, you should be able to find a tariff that still matches or beats gas. e.g. one that has an overnight tariff of ~7p/kWh and have your DHW heated then will easily beat out gas for DHW. Either way, if the system was properly specced to get a SCOP of 3.7, and you're getting 3.1, then the amount you pay for calling out a heat geek will likely pay for it this winter - especially if an 11kW unit is correctly sized for the property.
You can't be far off on price or the scop is lying my gas is just under 7p and my electric is just over 24p so only need a 3.4cop to break even and that's with a 100% efficient boiler that obviously doesn't exist and then factoring in the running of the electric of the boiler your probably pretty close.
What would you recommend for a bungalow currently using night storage heaters? Presumably, we would need radiators, so installation cost would be significant and payback would take many years.
Likely Air to Air (mini/multi split) would be the better solution, rather than installing a new central heating system. Don't get the government grant if in the UK, but should be cheaper anyway.
Payback would be pretty good as you’re coming off electric. On the OVO tariff 5 -10 years I would guess
do you sell in the USA?
Awesome.
Would love a video discussing different emmiters; rads, under floor and fan convectors?
Fan convectors seem like an ideal, simple solution for retrofit and lowering flow temps but very little info on them.
Any chance of explaining how an Air-to-air heat pump can work within an MVHR system?
I've been trying to design such a combined system for use in my home in the future, because installing any sort of air-to-water heat pump system would pretty much require completely gutting my house. It's much easier to install air supply/extract ducts to each room than it is to try to replace the old microbore pipework, but I'd really like some learned opinions on what I can expect with this setup before I go for it.
You do not need to replace microbore pipework. My system was originally oil with microbore piping and the radiator valves were coaxial so that both flow and return entered at the same end of the radiator. That might have been convenient for installation but awful for heating especially with double panel radiators. I replaced all of the coaxial valves with TRV and lockshield valves. Additional pip[ework was done in 15mm. It works absolutely fine.
@@rogerphelps9939did you need to have an additional pump installed (on top of the one in the heat pump) to push the liquid through the smaller diameter pipes?
I live in the middle of BC, Canada with a force air natural gas furnace. How do the variables change with climate and not using radiators. We have incentives to install heat pumps but they want us to remove the gas furnace. This doesn't make much sense to me.
Air to air your looking at 3.5 scop. You need to remove your furnace to decarbonise your home. ..
@@HeatGeek Thanks for the scoop on the scop. My concern was about a backup heating source when we get a week or so of -30C - -40C. I'm all for removing the gas but I also have a gas range/oven. Others will have more appliances so a little more thought into incentive programs and a long term strategy/commitment by the government would be helpful.
@@maxwellsmart3156 you need a different refrigerant for those low temperatures!
2 things do you have your own team of installers, i don't mean trained by you but employed by you? Second the pink dotted line on your graph denoting gas running costs. Does that mean you need a SCOP of above 3.5 for your running costs to be lower than gas?
Their own company for installations is Vito energy I believe.
Gas is 7p or so, electricity 30p. Typical boiler 90% efficient or less in operation, or lower if older or high flow temperatures. So COP would have to be 3.8 to break even if my maths doesn't suck
Be better if they took certain taxes/ levies off electricity and put it on gas, given electricity much cleaner than gas these days.
We do not have our own installers. Adam had now left VitoEnergy
We have a condensing boiler but we also have a couple of built in Mitsubishi Electric air-con units which are fantastic in the summer. They also have a heat mode. What heat source are these? Are they Heat Pumps? If so, would it be better to use them in the winter instead of the boiler and radiators? Thanks!
Yes, they are air-to-air heat pumps. Whether they are better or not depends on a few factors - e.g. what model they are, and whether they are designed to go to the temperature you get in winter. Also, the price of gas vs electricity will be a factor.
@@BenIsInSweden Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it! The outside units are Mitsubishi Electric MUZ-AP50VG and the inside units are MSZ-AP50VG they are only two or three years old. I'm in the UK so winter temperatures only go down to about -8 degrees celcius at worst.
@@Wreck-Gar Looks like they are rated to go down to -15C for heating, and (if you have 2 outdoor units) looks like you have approximately 10kW of heat capacity with them, as a quick rule of thumb with them if your annual gas usage is below 25,000kWh then they'll be sufficient to cover your heating entirely.
They have a rated SCOP of 4.7. With some assumptions (boiler efficiency at 90%, gas at price cap 6.89/kWh and electricity at 27.35/kWh), over the heating season, you will save approximately 1.8p per kWh of heat. Obviously that will change depending on your prices and whether you have an off peak tariff for electricity as well.
There are likely some times in the really cold weather when gas *might* be more cost effective, but I can't find a detailed spec sheet for yours that will give an idea on where that point might be.
It's worth doing an extended test depending on how easily you can monitor your gas and electricity usage - i.e. at least 24 hours in similar conditions, to get a general idea of what your spend will be, as the first hour of running a heat pump is not a good representation of it's efficiency, and 24 hours is a good length of time for things to stabilise, if you're willing to do a week or a month, even better.
Avoid turning them off completely as well, typically if you want to lower the temperature overnight or so, set it at a couple of degrees below what you have it set to, and set it back in the morning (or if there's a schedule on the remote or app you can use that).
@@BenIsInSweden Thank you so much for this info. I wasn't expecting this much! That's really helpful. I've got a smart meter that monitors both so I'll do an extended test and compare usage on my bills too. Thanks again and have a nice Christmas 🙂👍
amazing work
why cant i fit it in the attic?......
You want a source that has an abundance of heat energy, e.g. outside air, the ground or a body of water. Restricting it to a small area like an attic will reduce the temperature in the area pretty quickly to below outside air temperature making it work harder than if it was outside. Worse still in the attic you are essentially negating all thermal benefits the attic and roof provide with keeping heat inside your home.
Great news
With last winter being very mild with only 1 cold week in early december would we not expect a higher than normal scop?
These are quite literally way higher than ‘normal’
Was bloody cold here!
@@HeatGeek
I don't doubt the figures, we get a COP of 3.8 for dhw and 4.1 for heating with our GSHP.
Just not convinced how comparable year to year when last winter was so mild defrost cycles would be rare if at all.
I measure my winters by how many cans of antifreeze spray I go through clearing my windscreen. 4 cans this year, 1 can the previous year 😂