Ford 3.5 EcoBoost Cold Start Rattle (VCT Phasers) | Everything You Need To Know
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2021
- Ford’s 3.5 EcoBoost has become well known for vct phaser issues. Vct Phaser cold start rattle is the number 1 issue with these engines. In this video I break down everything you need to know about this issue.
Thanks for watching!
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I'm a Ford tech in the Houston, TX area and I want to share what we have been seeing.
First, the 21B10 recall is a go again. There's a new supplement to it that is a little bit more than just reprogramming and I'll explain why. What seemed like a transmission shutter, was actually the engine. According to hotline, the new PCM program alters the oil pressure and a shutter is experienced between 1200-1500 rpm on some engines after reprogram. When working with hotline and our local FSE, we found the shutter to be observed in the power balance test in that RPM range. In fact, when you look at the recall supplement, it will have you monitor power balance at 1200 RPM after reprogramming. If a shutter is experienced after programming, we are to reprogram it back to the previous file.
Anyways, after further testing in collaboration with hotline and FSE, we found that the camshaft mega caps are leaking. Ford already has updated the heads to fix this, but as you can probably guess...they are on back order. The old mega caps were secured with only three bolts. The new heads come with 4 bolt mega caps. On the trucks we had shuttering issues BEFORE 21B10 was reactivated, we were instructed by hotline/FSE to replace heads and cams. Now, they probably will not have anyone do this for now because they came up with a way to reprogram back to the old PCM file.
So, you are right that oil pressure is causing these phasers on the 3.5 GTDIs to fail. They are pretty much the same phasers found on the 2.7s, but I have yet to do phasers on a 2.7. My guess is that as supply for the new heads gets stronger, that Ford will either release an FSA or TSB to replace the heads and phasers and maybe cams. On one of these engines, when I took off the passenger head and cams I found the mega cap bearing and journal of the intake cam heavily scored. Probably from low oil pressure. It was a 2017 F150 with about 75000 miles.
I would agree that a Melling oil pump would be a waste. You could have all the oil flow in the world, but if either of the mega caps are leaking, you ain't gonna have sufficient pressure for the phasers and they'll wear out internally like they do right now anyways.
Hope this helps.
Very good info. Thanks for sharing!
This would seem to be what happened to my 3.5.. I was one of the unfortunate soaks whose engine started making a rattle at about 103k. Since I couldn’t afford the extreme cost of the dealer repair I decided to give it a go on my own. When I finally got the right hand valve cover removed I immediately Noticed the cam shaft (mega cap? ) forward retainer had obvious signs of high heat as the oil returning from that area had darkened the mega cap and the edge of the head under the cap. I really wanted to pull that cap and check the cam journal but time and cash 💰 prevented me. In any case I replaced everything that even remotely had anything to do with timing the engine phasers tensioners guides chain crank gear VVT gizmos and many TTY bolts. I consider that repair a success but We now have what sounds like turbo blades dragging the turbo housings on startup but the other noises have stopped. I love the power this tiny engine makes but reliability leaves much to be desired
@@wayneschmidt9620 what you’re referring to is mega cap. How often are you changing the oil? Most Fore techs agree that the intervals that Ford puts out is far to long. Pretty much all the ecoboosts engines run pretty hot and the oil deteriorated faster than Ford’s naturally aspirated engines. 5000 miles is, in my opinion, the absolute maximum and that’s if it’s primary long highway mile trips. Otherwise, 3000-4000 I believe is optimal. Changing oil more often won’t solve the phaser issue. I’ve done phasers on discolored/sludged engines and I’ve done them on engines so clean you could eat off them. More frequent changes will however prevent the engine from absorbing the heat that you observed with your megacap.
As far as turbo goes, check the play in the shaft by moving the compressor wheels up/ down & in/out. A wee bit of play is fine, but more than that means they need to be replaced. Wouldn’t surprise me at over 100k miles that either or both turbos are on their way out.
I'm near the Houston area and am curious if you came across my 2017 that had the update and a shudder that I FINALLY traded in as i was tired of waiting for Ford to pull their head out of their ass and do anything about it. I had the shudder since January 2021 when the TSB was first dropped and the shudder got worse and worse and Ford FINALLY accepted responsibility after denying they had anything to do with it for months and I paid for a few different services by the dealership that were supposed to fix it but never did. I also wasn't refunded for any of the money spent trying to fix their screw up. Regardless of all that the cam phasers were swapped twice on the same part of the motor because once it was swapped the new one immediately blew out and i ended up having to replace the timing chain as well for loss of tension prevention. Mine was around 75k so it would be coincidental of you were to have worked on mine lol. White 2017 Lariat 502A sport package. I love finding out later how completely crap the situation is because i was told there wouldn't be any problems down the road due to the issue and the shudder..i guess Ferd and their dealerships are fortune tellers, idk. Sounds like the 3.5 is F'd and should be kept away from. At least they NOW allow them to return to the previous version because when I asked for that, i was told Ford would not allow them to do that.
@@marks3036 Who would want to own one of these engines?? They have had nothing but problems since they came out with this engines. It is either Ford crap or just comes along with this complicated an engine.
Wow.
First off, great video. Thanks for sharing this and...being honest. Even though I am not a Ford fan, it builds a lot of respect to see a dealer tech go into this detail and be honest about it.
Thank you!
Glad I'm not the only younger tech out there that feels the same way about not tryna risk it for the biscuit!! I tell people all the time, don't make ME half ass your repair, because I WILL NOT back it up!! 🔧🔧🔧🔧
Great video, edited nicely for clarity and humor, love it!
Thank you! I feel the same way.
I just wanted to give you a big “THANK YOU!!!”. I had this issue and did what you said by contacting Ford! I had 88k miles and they paid 60% and since it took a month gave me a 3yr-36k mike Warrenty. If it wasn’t for your video I would gave gas to pay &3500! I owe ya a beer if we ever run into each other! Thanks buddy and keep up the good videos!!
What number did you call? I called the customer satisfaction team and they just told me the cam phaser is not a recall
Great info! Gonna take mine in next week and hopefully it gets fixed. 2018 f150 62,000 miles was previously reprogrammed to address the low speed shudder. Looking forward to it running smoothly
Great content! Thanks for taking the time to keep us customers informed from a mechanics standpoint on these trucks.
Thank you!
@@FlyingWrenches13 So these F150 bodies somewhat "easily" disconnect from frame ?? >>> 1:53
I have a 2018 with 41 K and it has started knocking. Taking it to the shop this week due to your video. Thanks.
I miss my ford, but I don’t miss the never ending issues and TSBs that applied to it. You do a great job man
Thank you!
@@FlyingWrenches13 I have the 2018 f150 with the 5.0 coyote. I have the cold start rattle every morning and doesn’t seem to give me any issues but this past week I noticed it was way noisier than usual and I’m wondering if it’s detrimental? I’m just wondering if it’s something like the hammy tick where it’s just what this engine does. It does knock too, I bought this truck last December and I kinda feel like they screwed me on this deal. It runs great but those are the two main things that bother my about the truck.
Awesome video! You are a modern day professional technician! Keep up the great work and videos!
Thank you so much! Comments like this keep me motivated to make more content. I appreciate you.
Very educational video, Mason!
Thank you!
Holy Cow, how did I just now find this channel?? This is great information, Thank you so much. I am going to forward this to my Local lame brain Ford Dealerships here in Northern CA.
I have been dealing with this issue since February 2021. 2017 Ford F-150 with 40K miles.
Rattles at cold start up, brought the truck in for service, they knew exactly what the issue was, the service advisor told me 30 seconds into my describing the issue. As soon as I got the truck back the vibration between 1200 & 1500 RPM started. I brought the truck back and the dealership told me they could not duplicate the issue. I asked if a mechanic could go on a test drive with me since I can make it happen every time. I was told No, due to Covid they were not allowed to conduct test drives with customers.
immediately
Thanks man! They actually have a new update coming out to fix the vehicles that had the shutter problem after the first reprogram.
Today, I'm confident that my 2018 F-150 received the old style cam phasers at 58,750 (Oct-2020) under TSB 20-2191 and today (Oct-2023) the F-150 is at the dealer replacing them again at 126,500...with the updated version. This video is gold - thanks Mason! - as I am waiting on the call from the dealer to discuss what other parts I want replaced. Loved the part of video discussing the repair for those of us who are way-out-of-warranty and what else you should consider replacing with this level of repair.
Solid information, thank you for the video. My Vehicle is a 2018 F-150 w/60K miles, Ford paid 66%. They called me mid repair and said the valve cover was cracked and I would need to pay for it, an extra $130, I assumed the tech broke it while removing it but I felt it wasn't worth disputing. In the end my total was $670 which I feel pretty good about. In so many ways this is the best truck I have ever owned, my whole family loves it and is comfortable while traveling, I have 0wned quite a few Fords and Chevrolets but this one stands out as being the highest quality, with this one exception. I wished Ford would figure out the Cam Phaser deal, Cam Phasers plagued the Ford trucks since 2004, maybe not the identical issue but the same part none the less.
Glad to hear you got some paid for! Yeah Ford is really slow it seems to correcting an issue that so many other makes have had almost no issues with for years
One of my valve covers cracked and showed up as a leak after vct replacement. Fortunately for me mine was at 56k so Ford paid
Mason,
I just finished doing a phaser job on a 2018 F-150, with 85K.
The phasers wouldn't "lock" and it would cause the valve train to "SNAP" as I was barring the engine over. The cams would literally rotate in the phasers, due to valve springs tension rotating the cams during rolling the engine over. Quite surprising to observe. New to your channel.
Nice to see someone that's going "take over" after Ford Technicians my age (54) retire. Been in the Ford Dealerships since 1988....... I have witness a LOT of changes over these 35 years!
Patrick
I would welcome you to Fords “quality” parts but you already know about them if you’ve been doing it that long haha
Would be better to switch from 5w30 to 5w-40 just to have thicker oil to cover the phasers?
I have a 2018 3.5 exobooat in my f150. Did not have the diesel sound rattle but heard from friend that did on his 2017. They replaced it under warranty at 12k miles. During the start of covid. Took a little time to get the parts, but it's good to go now.
I Have a shop in the DC Area your spot on very good info for the consumer 4000 is average with everything that should be replaced. I impressed with your knowledge good job 👍 keep up the good work
Thank you!
Known problems for 8 YEARS (11-19 model yrs) and FORD still hasn’t figured it out??? Shame on you Ford! I’m a 2019 Raptor owner here and had the cam phaser rattle at 9K miles. I’m at 12k now, fingers crossed it’s fixed. Thanks for putting this video out. Great info!
Thank you! Wow that’s about as early on as I’ve heard about one rattling. Most of the time they at least make it to 30K.
@FlyingWrenches13 I'm considering a 2017 Raptor, but it has 90k miles so I don't know
It is possible to swap over to the Melling oil pump ($135 at Summit) without dropping the pan. It's a bit of a pain because of the pickup can be done without dropping the pan in about 30 minutes or less. On transverse mounted engines (Lincoln MKS, MKT, Taurus SHO) the pick-up drops right out of the way so it is a 5 to 10 minute job once you are in there.
This bad program is what got me. I commented on one of your other videos with a shudder issues. After the dealer jerked me around for 3 and a half months letting my truck sit on the lot I finally took my truck to another dealer. The maintenance manager knew if was the program with in 30 seconds of me talking to him. As of two weeks ago the program is still not out..... hopefully it wont damage the transmission. (Pinnacle Ford in nicholasville ky is an absolute joke)
Thanks for making this video!
Yeah that sucks man! Ford should have never released that program with out first testing the updated software.
Great information. I'm going through this as I type. Just got the call from the dealer that they need to do the whole phaser job. I had the software program done a while back. No help. The 21N03 didn't apply to mine... What the what!? The rattle started at about 50k miles or thereabouts. Then, to my absolute amazement, I found my original extended warranty I bought and it was 6 years, not 3, like I thought. I have 69,700 miles on my 2018 and i was 4 months and 5k miles to the expiration! Thank you God! Saved me $3k out of pocket. $100 deductible.
Great video. I have a 2011 3.5 Ecoboost with 185K miles. Never had any of these issues. I use Mobile One full Syn oil. I just had my water pump replaced.
Thank you! Water pumps are pretty common for going out 150k+.
@@FlyingWrenches13 - are they behind a cover or in front easy to remove?
@@Dirtyharry70585 they are in the front but not real easy to replace. Kinda a tight spot to get in there to work.
Awesome video! My wifes 2019 3.5 has 30k miles on it now. Started rattling around 25k miles. Currently waiting on parts. Seems the longer we wait, the louder it gets every cold start. Also have the transmission hard shifting issues and rough idle.
Same here any update?
Omg this video explains my truck issues. 4:40 is exactly what happened to my truck. They were never able to fix it and caused more problems the transmission shudder feels like you’re on the shoulder of the highway. My teeth rattle sometimes it is so bad. Glad Ford did the right thing and took it back.
Hope it helped you!
@@FlyingWrenches13 it did tremendously. I thought I was crazy and I am pretty sure so did everyone else. I can’t tell you how exact you were with the issue, I experienced everything you described even after the 2 recalls were done. There is a 3rd one but I guess they will know how to fix it once they get it back
The information in this video is spot on
You’re a excellent mechanic 🧰 and actually know what you’re talking about unlike 95% of “ mechanics “ out there. 👍👍👍👍 Great video
Thank you!
I second that, let's hope my dealer is half as competent... lol thanks for the video bro!
…again customers are Beta testing Ford products. I have a 2019 supercrew with 20,000 miles, I was notified of the problem the dealership stated the PCM Reprogram had been canceled as you stated, looking forward to that repair. I also have a 10R80 transmission whine issue, under the SSM 47812 the dealership and Ford hotline said it’s not an issue won’t affect durability. We’ll see. Your video was very informative I subscribed to your channel and look forward to future post. Thank you
Thank you! There was a TSB on the 20 models for a whine noise caused by a faulty planetary. May be worth asking your dealer about. I’ve put a few in for noise issues and noise went away on all of them.
Great guy and great Mechanic! Fixed my white 2017 Limited with the Rattle!
Thanks!
It will be back in 35-40,000 miles. I had 2018 and had the rattle fixed once at 70,000. Then at 105,000 it happened again. I got rid of it at 142,000
Good info. My BRAND NEW 2022 BRONCO 2.3 liter manual has this rattle, so obviously Ford has not figured out how to fix this issue. I've read content where other Bronco owners are having the same rattle during startup. Your theory seems right about the oil pressure as I've noticed that the rattling during colder weather takes longer to go away. At least now I can seem like I know what I'm talking about with the service department instead of saying... "it sounds like Jacob Marley from the movie Scrooge, lightly rattling his chains". Thank you!
Exactly why I love my pushrod engines. So much easier and cheaper to work on.
I’m a LS fanboy as well.
@@FlyingWrenches13 How can you not be, the Iron block LS is the best engine ever made. No other engine can take more HP stock then the 4.8L stock iron block. 1480HP is what Trucks magazine got it up to.
@@bartekmedes8281 all that out of an engine that cost $500 at the junkyard.
Wait until that cylinder deactivation goes bad then you won't think it's so easy and cheap. Big problem on chevy engines
Only Gm has lifter failure a lot more than these and before the first oil change at that. Dohc isn’t hard to work on either. And no pushrod running 7s unopened from the factory like a coyote.
Another mechanic had the same theory about the phasers- oil pressure issue. He mentioned that Ford should get the PCM to increase the oil circulation to the phasers & timing chain at start up. I don't know what that means, but what you said, seems logical to me. (non-pro mechanic) I would do this to my 2014 F-150 3.5 ecoboost. I got 198,000 miles on mine and running really good, but waiting for the noise to get louder as time goes bye. I have no history on my truck, only what the VIN # report has. But I would love to know what services were done on my truck, just to see what else did they fix on it that I don't need to do to it. My truck sound good for the year and mileage, so I'm hoping that he took care of all the recalls and problems. It's too bad you live so far, I would love for YOU to do the job, since you seem to know what you're doing. (Take pride in your work)
Thanks! Their are plenty of dealers out there with techs that could do just as good of a job as me. Just gotta find them.
Just had to do this on mine. 2017 3.5l ecoboost with 74k miles. New cam phasers then had the shudder, took it back for the reprogram and now everything feels a lot better.
Glad to hear!
Thanks for posting this video. I'm at around 28.5K miles right now and I'm not looking forward to getting this repaired.
Thanks!
Press the gas pedal down to the floor and hit the ignition switch. The engine will not start and you can build oil pressure before you start it up.
So is that bypassing the problem? I just started to get the rattle at start 2015 140k 3.5. And holding it down it doesn't rattle.
You seriously did that? Lmao 😂
It works will not start w pedal on the floor.
Mine is gas and brake simultaneously. It works
On mine I hit the driver door lock/unlock switch 3X, ignition on/off 3X, lights on/off once, honk twice, open/close the driver side door and start.
GTG for 1 week worse case scenario.
push the throttle pedal to the floor, crank the engine for 5 seconds ( it builds oil pressure during cranking ) then remove foot from throttle & start engine.no rattling due to immediate oil pressure when it starts.its a cheap way to prelube your engine before it starts.
I do this on my 5.4
Just hit 60,000 miles yesterday and have done this since I got it at 19,000. Never had a rattle. Just a little extra step to possibly save the engine.....I'm ok with that.
Thank you for the tip - 2019 with 17k and a rattle at start up - reprogrammed by the dealer with no effect. Are these trucks good otherwise? I drove GM until this truck, but switched because my GM's always rusted away in 10 years.
@@rveerman1800 I love mine. Don't really see much that goes bad on them other than the timing chain rattle. But letting the oil pressure build before cranking helps take care of that.
You explain things very well. Ty subscribed
Thank you!
Dude, I just subd. I like you, Your a great tech, I can tell. Was a Caterpillar mech for 30 years. your doing a great job!
Thank you!!
I got an 2019 Expedition with this engine in it and just had the recall service done. I have never heard a rattle nor had any problems with my car.
My 18 with 60k started doing it
So back in the day when I worked on crappy Maseratis we had this same issue and new phasers wouldn't fix it. We had to send the front cam bearing block off that controls the oil flow into the phaser and have a check ball put in to stop the oil from bleeding off when the vehicle sat overnight or longer then about 6hrs. That was an instant fix. Now we always replaced the phasers when inside bc it's unknown if any damage occurred from it slapping around but the check ball was the true fix. I'm happy with my old 2v bump pulling a cab off to service the engine that's just poor engineering to me but I've always worked on German and exotics so maybe the domestics do it differently now.
That’s the very first thing I thought of. These “experts” haven’t a clue
@jayman is this something that someone could even do to their Ecoboost? I would t know where to take it to for this. Maybe a Maserati dealer? Lol
@@infotechsailor maybe they could fit an electric oil pump to prime the engine before it is started. Same as they do with priming the fuel system before a start.
@@infotechsailor I haven't been inside one of these engines to see how the oil flows to the adjusters so it might not even be an option to do for this engine. Every engine is different so what worked for one might not work for another unfortunately.
My 2019 3.5 F150 has less than 3000 miles on it now. I have a lot of automobiles. At 2200 miles after an oil change it rattled like a diesel one morninng on cold start up. I change the oil every 8 months. I noticed when changing the oil the Mobile One oil filter that I was using the filter oil holes were smaller than the Ford Motorcraft oil filters recommended for this truck in the Ford owners manual. So I figured less oil flow with the smaiiler holes. I drain the synthetic oil and filled the motor up with 6 quarts of Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic 5W-30 and installed the Motorcraft oil filter. It works well so far with only a slight tick tick tick on cold start. I can live with that.
I do depress the pedal down for 5 seconds while I turn Push the start button then let go of the gas pedal and it starts but does not rattle I I did this for a while until I had the opportunity to actually change the phasers I want to thank you for explaining everything about the phasers and believe me this Trick worked for a while save me some time Thank you and keep doing those videos
Does this just prolong the life of the chain and prevent any further stretching/damage? I’ve noticed that mine does rattle on occasion (usually after sitting for a few consecutive days) so I too have implemented this technique but was wondering what the exact purpose is other than not hearing the rattle. Thanks for any advice you may offer.
Wish the CSRs at service departments were this knowledgeable...and useful. lol
Thanks lol
Great video! You’re a very impressive young man.
Thank you!
Love my 19' 2.7 ecoboost, at 27k miles, fingers crossed it doesn't blow up. Added a oil catch can for preventative maintenance
thanks, from a 2017 F-150 3.5 EcoBoost owner...
Ford Tech from Denver here, surprised you pulled the cab to do these. Ive done so many of these in the truck i couldnt imagine pulling the cab would be much easier or faster. I'm consistently getting them done is around 4 hours.
I'm a tech at an independent shop, I did a set of chains and phasers on an ecoboost f150 and just thinking back to the intercooler piping on the turbos, I'd rather have the cab off too
I'm a Honda tech who had to replace the water pump on a 17 explorer with a 3.5l. I dropped the engine out the bottom onto a table. I didn't see another way to get the job done correctly and quickly lol. I can see on this one hes working on the pump is external, the one i delt with was a chain driven pump under the timing cover.
@@alleyesopen7776 that's the way I'd do it in a transverse application.
@@alleyesopen7776 totally unnecessary on explorers, on the other hand, newer edges make more sense to drop out the bottom
Yeah it’s definitely not faster to pull the cab but it does make everything much more accessible and overall I just feel like I can do a better job at re sealing everything with cab off.
Great Video... I appreciate your knowledge. This is the second time I am taking my 2018 EB to the dealer for the rattle issue. The first time was at 48K miles at which time they changed timing chain and tensors. I have it in again today for same rattle at 72000. They are replacing the phasers at 60% coverage from FORD. I am not a car tech guy so the question I have is that if this happens again do I really need to take it back to FORD. Can I continue to drive the truck without issue with the cold start rattle? Will I do damage to the engine or the transmission with the continued rattle? Thank in advance!!
Thank you so much. So informative!
Great video, very informative. Thank you
Great video. I’m a tech in North West Arkansas been doing this for 9 years with Ford. Over the past couple years this is one of my favorite jobs to do. I share the same ideas with you on why these go bad and how the programs don’t work at all and replacing all the timing components under CP. But there’s one thing I gotta ask. How do you make any money on this job pulling the cab?
Pulling cab in my opinion would be faster cause I'm having the rattlle issues and Ford quoted 15 hrs for total and that's not pulling the cab
15hours that’s more that enough I would make bank charging that much 😂
Do you have your own shop?
You just added a new subscriber! I just bought a ‘19 3.5 with 99k miles and did not notice the cold (and warm) start rattle until after I brought it home. The dealer included a 3k mile power train warranty. Do you think I should attempt to have them replace the phasers even if there is no code thrown? The rattle is LOUD. Otherwise I’m in love with the truck.
Thank you, welcome to the channel. And Yes yes yes. I would get as much done on there dime as possible.
@@FlyingWrenches13 thanks, appointment is scheduled.
Same boat 2014 Ford
F-150 Eco boost 3.5 runs amazing. Only small rattle on cold start. Just tried the trick of building oil pressure by holding down accelerator and it worked perfect
Very informative ,great video.
Thank you!
Good to know. My 2017 limited has 43k miles. I had the reprogram done on it. Didn’t change a thing. Deciding if I want to be without my truck for 3-5 weeks or wait little longer to have the phasers replaced.
It should not take that long to have phasers installed. We have about a 2 day turnaround on phasers. Now it might be a month before we can get an appointment for you to bring it in but it comes in and out pretty fast.
I have a 2012 3.5 that rattles for about a second on cold start up. I thought it might be the timing chain is stretched and it takes a second for the tensioners to tighten it up. If I get a new timing chain and tensioners should I mess with the VCT Phasers at all?
Yeah I would highly recommend replacing those phasers at the same time.
Thanks for posting this video! I have a few questions. Are the VCT'S capable of changing the timing enough to cause the pistons to contact the valves? Also would the VCT leaks eventually become bad enough to affect timing while the engine is running?
Thank you! The only way for a valve to contact a piston is if the timing is off. Phaser can swing full retard or advance without and valve contact. To the second question, I’ve never seen that happen. Most of the time it’s only on cold start.
Awesome thanks for the info! Greatly appreciated. And great video.
I had F150 with the 3rd gen Coyote 5.0. Over retardation and advancement from sludge buildup. Warranty only replaced the solenoid. That sludge is eventually going to cause real damage including bent parts.
So is the only issue a rattle at startup in the phaser and nothing actually getting damaged in the engine? In other words what if I just live with this and not fix it?
@@chriscagle3155 I believe so, I drove mine for two years with the rattle, and it started to get worse towards the end before I sold the truck.
I don't want to dig out my records, but my 2018 Expedition developed this problem around 30K miles. I never pulled a trailer nor drove off road. My VCT phasers were replaced under warranty, but still, what a huge disappointment and attack on the confidence I previously had in my vehicle. The dealer said the parts they put back in had some modification(s). Thanks for the explanation!
Great video. Thanks for the info.
Sounds a lot like the old 5.4l issues. Most of that was fixed with updated phasers and a high volume oil pump.
Yeah that’s pretty much what’s fixing these. Oil pumps do better on these than the 5.4’s did.
Great video! I've been dealing with this issue on my 2018 for about a year now. It's getting worse/more frequent. Your theory sounds good! However, my truck does it when I first start it and ALSO when it's at normal operating temperature. I can be going out the interstate, steady speed, and it'll do it. It does it going up hills. It does it when I accelerate gradually coming out of a curve. I have noticed it does it more often when it's cold outside. Cold meaning around 30 degrees or colder. Do you think your theory might apply in my situation? Thanks!
I have the same problem as you. Have you figured anything out?
Looks just like a typical day in my world, between doing these and short blocking '17 to '19 Escape 1.5s .......only difference being, I don't have a bunch of guys helping me when I'm into one of these. I'm glad it looks like I'm not the only one who lifts cabs to do this job. Lifting the body on the Navigators sure is a little bit more work than the cab on the F-150s. These GEN II version 3.5s have had this problem from new though. I've heard that same rattle at start up, even on brand new units coming in for PDI.
1.5 engine, 3.5 phasers, repeat.
Thank you sir! Very informative..
Thank you!
thanks for the info.
got a question, what will happen if I leave it without replacement? are we taking about complete engine failure?
It actually won’t cause any other issues. It will just keep on rattling.
It won’t cause additional problems.it’s just a nuisance.
I still can't figure out why you remove the cab to do this job. Up here in New England, we don't. Interesting...
New subscriber here… found this over on one of the Raptor groups. From one RUclipsr to another, man what an awesome job in laying everything out. I second your thoughts on calling Ford Corp… they do try and help. My Dad was a Ford mechanic, senior master for 30 years before he passed in 2017. He always told me the same thing… get ahold of corporate if you’re having problems.
Anyways, awesome video! Super helpful for all those folks out there sweating cam phaser issues.
Thank you! I just went and checked out your channel, I like your stuff man!
@@FlyingWrenches13 thanks! It’s been fun learning this stuff.
@@FlyingWrenches13 Well, must've jinxed myself. I typically remote start my truck (19' Raptor just under 42k miles 10/18 build date)...this morning I remote started as I was walking out and I heard the distinctive phaser rattle on start up.
So, run it longer until Ford better figures out what course of action they want to go? Head replacement/phaser replacement? Or go ahead and take it in? I do have ESP to 100K, but I drive a ton...only had the truck just over 2 years and have some long distance hunting trips this fall.
I would probably have the phasers replaced now. This seems to fix the majority of them.
@@FlyingWrenches13 thanks. Tried getting an appointment at the dealer today. I’ve had a heck of a time getting good service.
4 sets of phasers in 36000 miles on my 2019 xlt. loved the truck but boy am i glad ford bought it back from me. never again until maybe ecoboost 3.0
Why so many? Did it just keep rattling?
@@FlyingWrenches13 kept talking and the last two sets failed to the point they are the cams. All service work was done at one of the best service shops in the south. Ford never could get my truck right so they gave up I guess. My first and likely last Ford lol
Hi, thanks for the info. Would you be willing to post a parts list for this repair including chains,tensioners and gaskets needed for this job? Thank you!
Sure! Send me your email and I’ll send you the saved quote I have. Also I’ll need to know what year model as they vary some.
@@FlyingWrenches13 Hi I sent you email with the info, thanks very much!
@@FlyingWrenches13 can you please send me the parts quote for a 2018 3.5 thank you
@@chito69691 shoot me an email. Mdunsford90@gmail.com
@@FlyingWrenches13 how much do you charge to do this repair
can you explain the "mega cap" and how it has to do with the phaser?
Honestly to really explain it I need to do some more research into how the oil actually flows through the head. I may do a video on it here soon.
Thanks so much for the reply Flying Wrenches!,
Great Video! 👍
Thank you!
Is it possible to program the ecu to extend cranking time (before firing) to allow more time to build oil pressure? I would think it would only need an extra second or two to get the oil moving enough to take up any bleed-off from those phasers or tensioner?
I’m sure it is possible to do that but it wouldn’t be the best way to fix it. Longer crank time would lead to starter failure eventually. I think what they are doing with this program is having the pcm demand a different position from the phasers at startup that won’t make it rattle. I’m not sure what position would make it not rattle. Unfortunately there isn’t any publications telling us the differences between the stock tune and the updated pcm file they are getting us to put in them under the 21b10 recall.
Hold the pedal to the floor. Engine will not start till you release it.
@@jimsherman2477 I used to fuck with my buddy doing that
@@FlyingWrenches13 I'm on my third starter in a year anyways. The autoshutoff really wears my starter out.
Great video! Question: had the VCT Phasers swapped recently (
Yeah it shouldn’t be rattling at all. I would go see someone else.
Use Amsoil
It may be the waste gates rattling. If the rattle lasts for more than a couple of seconds it is not the phasers.
@@johnlexus1 amsoil fixes mechanical problems?
I had a 2017 2.7 and about a month ago I started experiencing the cold start rattle.I just traded it in for a 2020 3.5L and it drives like a dream
I’ve heard of a few people with 2.7’s experiencing the rattle but I’ve never seen one myself. I guess it’s a little more rare for those engines. Maybe the 20 model will do better for ya.
@@FlyingWrenches13 yeah truck had 64k miles when it started rattling , I also had to get the oil pan replaced twice common issue for the 2.7
Yeah oil pans are junk on those! Thanks for the input.
Thank you Sir! You are a scholar!
Salute from GM land.
Unreal that this company still hasnt figured out the phasers going back to 5.4. Junk.
Lol
I know it’s very bizarre, I did phasers and timing on 2018 navigator, 2018 raptor, working on a 19 f150, all 3 are my vehicles and all went to the dealer within a month of ownership.
chevy has em too dumbass idiot!
Buy a Chevy
@@c.torino2479 Chevy will have lifter failure before first oil change 🤣 lawsuit about it currently
You seem to be and awesome mechanic and that's a breath of fresh air well done young man . Ford seems to have a lot of problems with quality
Your an awesome technician
2017+ 3.5 ecoboost: leaky oil pans, rattling timing chains, useless 10r80 transmission…. I see why people are going to the outdated 5.7 I force from Toyota. A $40k+ truck shouldn’t need thousands of $$ in repair work before 100k miles
127k on mine ....none of those problems
5.7 tundra was best truck I ever owned. 6 years and never had an issue with it.
"I'm a senior master technician." Dude look like he's 17 years old! 😄✌️
Not far off. Turned 24 last month.
Don't be salty he did something with his life while he was young. I'm the same. 25 and will be a Senior Ford Master Tech in 6 months.
Happy Birthday and thanks for sharing
So I have a 2018 F-150 3.5 Ecoboost with 118k miles, so I know I am past the warranty. I do have the 2nd generation ecoboost. I took my truck in during the recall and the Ford dealership programmed the truck. It really didn't do much and since the truck would only rattle at start up, I just lived with it. I changed the oil regularly so I never had any issues. It started throwing a code this past January 2022. P0022 so I replaced the camshaft position sensors. Right away it threw another code which was for the VCT's (oil solenoids). I took it to my mechanic and he replaced them. I picked up the truck and it still threw the exact same codes. It was still rattling (more now) and the mechanic said it was probably the phasers. He refused to crack open the engine and referred me to the Ford dealership. I am mechanically inclined and I didn't want to spend $4k so I tackled the job myself. When I cracked open the engine I noticed the cams were not synced with each other within each bank (1,2). The exhaust cam and the intake cam for bank 1 were not synced with each other so the camshaft tool would not work. The same for bank 2. I figured it was the programming based on the recall. I lined up my timing marks for the camshaft, and then the phasers on each bank. I had to rotate the camshafts to sync with each other so I could use the camshaft position tool for each bank. I installed the new (most recent) phasers and lined up the timing chains, guides, etc. and put everything back together. The truck starts up and is running strong but occasionally idles down then dies. The gas mileage is slightly lower as well. It is throwing numerous codes with them being for the parts that I replaced that are brand new. The local mechanic cleared the codes but the truck is not recognizing the new parts. I took it to the Ford dealship and they want $3.5k to verify the timing plus the cost of the parts. They say it's not a programming issue and the truck had to have jumped time. Is this true? The truck is running fine and strong other than the codes and when the truck dies occasionally when it idles down. Are there any other possible issues other than timing? I would have thought the truck wouldn't run or run very rough all of the time if it was timing. If I pay the Ford dealership can I expect a warranty? If I was to open the engine back up should the timing tool work to sync the camshafts for each bank? I don't mind spending the money as long as I get a warranty and if I know that I am not being taken advantage of. Does it sound like the Ford dealership is taking advantage of me? Thank you.
Very nice explanation,blessings
Thank you!
Yall just pulling cabs on everything. Makes me think your a deisel guy. Lol
I was before I came to this newest dealer. I still work on them here just not as much as I use to.
That's exactly what I was thinking
Wait, wait, FORD “ Tested “ this engine when it first came out through the BAJA desert 🌵 and everything then tore it down and everything was fine???
Ford been making engines over 100 years and Honda and Toyota STILL make a better engine? HOW? WHY?
WHEN is Ford going to get their shit together and make a GAS 400,000 mile engine w/o a MAJOR repair? WHEN?
And why people STILL buy and support this CRAP? And pay good money for it
The days of reliable engines are behind us unfortunately. It’s all about power and fuel economy now.
I see transits with 600k ,400k,all the time. There not tuned as hot but last alot longer
Honda sure they are reliable. Get real tired of hearing how reliable Toyota’s are As a mechanic I know Toyota’s to be pretty junky. Which is bad when u also have no power to go with it
Good job Ford! Another winner! Thanks a lot. I guess just get the 5.0 and avoid ecoTrash
As someone who did the phasers at 150,000 miles I decided to wait on oil pump to be cheap. 158,000 miles car doing the same symptoms. Ford diagnosed it as failing oil pump, when the oil pumps start to go out, and the engine gets over 150,000. It's easy to have the same symptoms as phaser rattle. I changed all 4 of my work trucks oil pumps with melling high volume. All trucks have over 250,000. Run great. None of the other trucks I changed oil pump on ever had phaser rattle.
Came here because my 2018 F150 xlt started rattling at start up.. thanks for the info
Thanks for the video.
nice video, doing my first one now, done tons of the older 5.4s.
Thanks! I think the 3.5’s are easier than the 5.4
@@FlyingWrenches13 i guess its personal prefrence. lol. happy wrenching.
Thanks for the heads up
2020 explorer st dealer changed phasers for rattle described in your video ,at 4000 miles motor blew shortly there after and was warranties with long block
Thanks for info. I didn't expect to see cab being pulled off for vct units. I only pull cabs on Ford diesels. Old dog/new tricks.
I have a 17 transit 250 with the 3.5 eco with close to 70,000 so far no issues thankfully . A good friend of mine has a 11 f-150 eco with over 300,000 miles and has never been in to, other then oil changes
Yeah Ive seen a few 3.5’s with 350k plus. Just gotta take care of them.
I hope that Goes well honor the repair on my truck. I just bought it and the previous owner never brought it in for the PCM reprogram. I saw a video from when this all first started that the truck had to be taken in by like August of 2021 to be eligible for the CSP.
watching your has convinced me not to buy the low mile expedition I was thinking about buying. feel it was a blessing that I saw your videos. I will never look at another 3.5 ford eco. I almost went back to Ford after divorcing it in 1994. I see now that nothing has changed for the better in 30 years
My 2014 f-150 with the 3.5 Eco started the rattle at about 45k miles. I now have 55k. Most of the time it rattles on start up to various degree after the truck has not been started for more than 12 hrs. Occasionally it can sit for several days and no rattle on start up, some times a slight rattle after sitting at work for 8-1/2 hrs. I saw another vid that stated the rattle is the chain slapping against the inside of the timing cover and it will eventually wear holes in the cover. I don't drive my truck every day and don't want to tear into it at this time with only 55k miles. I came up with a work around that is a slight hassle but it works for me because I mostly only use the truck two or three times a week.
Before cold start I remove the #78 15 amp fuse to the ignition ecm from the fuse station under the hood. I then crank the engine normally with the key for about 10 seconds until I see pressure on the oil gauge in the dash. I then return the #78 fuse and start the engine normally and always without a rattle. I bit of hassle, but it works and it also pre-lubes the engine to full oil pressure before startup.
I run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 with Lucas Synthetic Oil Stabilizer and change oil every 4-5k miles. Next oil change I will run Motorcraft 5w30 to see if the seals in the phasers leak down less with semi-synthetic oil. Synthetic oil molecules are many times smaller that mineral base oil molecules and I am hoping the semi-synth Motorcraft oil fixes this.
Did you know you can do the same thing by holding the accelerator pedal at WOT? It will kill the fuel injectors and allow you to crank the engine without starting. I’ve never tried to see if the rattle has went away by doing this before starting though. Let us know if the synthetic blend makes any difference!
@@FlyingWrenches13 Thank you for the wide open throttle tip. I did that this morning until the oil pressure needle hit normal pressure (about 10 seconds of starter crank), then started the engine normally with no rattle. Wish I knew of some kind of inline pre-lube pump for the 3.5 Eco.
Glad to hear! Yeah I have never hear of anything like that for a 3.5.
@@FlyingWrenches13 Works on my 17 EB and no rattle because it gives oil a chance to pump up there before startup.
So disappointing how ford has handled this issue. For the record my f150 is the best truck I've ever driven... except cracked ds valve cover, oil pan leaking constantly, turbo coolant line layout, cam phasers, timing chain slack, intake leaks, etc... for these reasons I'll probably by an na gmc. I know they have their issues too but they are easier to work on for the diy guy and no BS as fords been doing for over a decade. Like I said my 18 platinum is great other than the most important issues, reliability. Good stuff man thanks for keeping it real.
Warrantied my F150 a little after 36,000. I have since taught my self to brake gas start and cycle the engine to get the cam phasers some oil before ignition.
I worked for Ford for 15 years. Went to Toyota and couldn't believe the differance in quality and reliability. Happier customers and Happier Techs.
Good video and good conversation here in the comments. Ford should be doing a better job in regards to extending the warranty for the VCT phasers. They are aware of the problem and don’t have a proper fix yet, and they are being stingy with the extended warranty coverage. Not a good way to stand by your product.
Just had my dealer do the work to fix the issue. Thank God I had the extended warranty.
Glad to hear!
Great video. Was in process of buying one thankfully i always run a scan pulled the history had cam phaser code and tranny code. Saved me thousands. In my opinion the auto start not a good idea. If was going to do should of had electric prime pump. And the fact you cant permanently shut it off without a programmer. A gm 5.3 will live 9 lives before any ecoboost. Dad was service advisor for ford but i just cant back them.