A Progressive Christian's Reconstruction, With Ian Harber -The Alisa Childers Podcast #73
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- We've got another deconstruction/reconstruction story for you! On this episode, Ian Harber tells us his story of growing up in the Evangelical church only to deconstruct into progressive Christianity. After years of following progressive authors and podcasts like The Liturgists, Ian reconstructed to a vibrant historic Christian faith.
Other deconstruction/reconstruction stories:
Travis Lowe: • To the Brink of Atheis...
Dominic Done: • Deconstruction and Rec...
For all links to Alisa’s recommended reading, podcast studio gear and other items,
please visit the Alisa Childers Amazon Store at www.amazon.com/...
Thank you for your podcast Alisa! I related to this specific podcast deeply. As a Christian of 20 years, I’ve spent the last 5 years deconstructing from my Christian non-denominational beliefs to progressive/liberal Christianity. But within the last 2 months Jesus has captured my heart very tangibly and within days I recognized that I needed to go in the direction of Historic/Biblical Christianity. Nearly overnight I started my journey of reconstruction and I’m so grateful to Him for drawing me back to Him.
👏👏💞🙏🙏
Alisa, your a good interviewer! You do not over-talk, you ask intuitive questions, and you let the guest speak.
I agree! And if she talks, she has something worthy of contributing to the conversation, like insights from a book she recently read. So good! I love this channel!!
@@jessicamiller1548 same!
@@morgannixon9812
Same.🤗🤗🤗
She is truly God sent ❤️
Listening to him talk about having missed the basic tenets of Orthodox Christianity makes me realize just how much Church Leaders have moved away from catechism. Actual bible doctrine taught consistently in children’s ministry all the through to adult ministry. The church has dropped the ball in this regard. He is so right, Orthodox doctrine is beautiful if only we were taught what it actually is. I was raised Roman Catholic. Ended up in the WOF movement. Began my deconstruction out of that world in 2003 and could not be more grateful for God’s kindness, Grace and Love that has me in a place of learning more and more about historic Christianity (I am Reformed in my faith and learning daily). Thank you for your insights! You are a blessing to the body of Christ.
I can certainly relate with this. When I was younger, my family attended a Reformed church. But after a couple of moves, we ended up at a larger nondenominational church, and once I was in college, I went full-on into the Emergent Church. It was certainly a hipster church, but I was also hiding a lot of sin. To make a really long story short, God got ahold of me back in 2010. I de-transitioned slowly back, spending about six years at a pretty decent, Calvinist-leaning Nazarene church. We moved and I attended a decent nondenominational church. However, I recently had a desire to return to my Reformed background. Much of this has come by way of studying a lot online, listening to podcasts and RUclips videos, and documentaries like The American Gospel, reminding me of my roots and helping solidify doctrine.
Ian’s closing words were so encouraging. As a parent of an adult child who has drifted from orthodox faith to the progressive movement, you and Ian have given me hope for him and his family. We’ll keep praying and loving and trusting our mighty God.
This interview was so interesting from a parent's perspective. I love what Ian said about giving lots of grace to your children and really listening as you try to understand where they are coming from. For so long, I have been that mom that is fearful that my former atheist, now agnostic son will not find salvation and be converted. However, as I continue walking in love and praying for him, things are improving in our relationship and his openness to Christianity. I'll never forget my dad telling me (which I didn't do a good job of) that I needed to make sure my kids knew why in regards to their beliefs. Thank you for the reminder and the hope. Very encouraging.
One more thing. I applaud Ian's strength and resilience through the things he's faced, and his study. The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that the "progressive" or "woke" side of things is a mirror image of conservative or orthodox Christianity. Instead, I think the saying is true, that for people on the right, their religion is their politics, while for those on the left, their politics is their religion. I think it is a sliding scale, from Christian perfection, through more and more selfish or humanistic thinking, which ends in atheism. Where people worship themselves, and the human race in general. "Progressive" Christianity focuses on this world, and seeks "social justice". The kind of self-focused "prayer" you talked about is almost indistinguishable from the next step, which is "spiritual, but not religious" or New Age. And then you have atheism, which is purely about materialistic humanity and its powers. Only a handful go the full way, though. Because the real final step of that scale is Satanism. If there is anything modern Christians are allergic to discussing, it's Satan, and hell. But when you look at Satan's character as displayed in the Bible, it is exactly what we see people doing. He was unsatisfied serving God, rebelled, and sought to take over and rule God's creation for himself. He is "the accuser of the brethren". He is a liar, and the father of lies. When he tempted Jesus, he offered to give him everything he wanted in this world. He offers shiny objects that seem desirable, but he never tells you the end of the deal, which is destruction. Is that not what we're seeing in the world today, as people turn their backs on God? That is the nature they are displaying, as they are increasingly deceived. Satan knows where he's going, and he wants to take as many people as he can with him. If that's not true, why does it map so directly to what we see in reality?
I had a different path, which is probably kind of unique, and as a result, I don't exactly relate to these kinds of stories, but they are obviously somewhat common. It seems that people raised in churches (I wasn't) often have a very hard time separating God and the Bible from all of the people, and human social and cultural institutions, surrounding them. It seemed to be less the case in past generations, and I have to think that the sort of "seeker friendly" (and often profitable) mega-church with "contemporary music" and so on, which seeks to woo people in by looking like the world, is a big part of this story. That people who are raised in that environment don't have a firm foundation. That they kind of get "Cliff's Notes" and a T-Shirt, and that's not enough to hold up when life gets harder, or they encounter some of the attacks of the culture and militant atheists.
For me, I had some Christian teaching from my family and media growing up, and believed at a young age. But I hadn't read 95% of the Bible, and when I was teenager, I largely went my own way into all of the things the world pushes you towards. What I found was meaninglessness, and hopelessness. So I decided to read the Bible from beginning to end, to decide for myself whether or not I believed it. I had already heard all of the counter arguments. Before I even got to the end, I had decided that it was the truth.
But what do I mean when I say truth? My reasoning came from the opposite direction that the New Atheists and so on like to push you. They want to nitpick tiny details, and tear down strawmen to raise doubts. Instead, I asked the big questions first.
Where did we come from? Is it really plausible that human beings developed from single celled organisms into what we are now? It turns out that even science at this point has to admit it makes no sense. There is no reason why life would develop with increasing complexity. That's not even how it's supposed to work. And they can't tell you how life itself began. And the "Big Bang" theory sounds a lot like Genesis...
Second, if there is no God, how do we determine right and wrong? Where do we even get that concept? The inescapable answer, using pure reason, is that if there is no God, there is no such thing as right or wrong. Now...what was that tree called?
Then there are other questions. How did a poor carpenter from a tiny town in occupied Israel, who was executed at the age of 33, become the most influential person in the history of the human race? How is that even possible? Why would his disciples do what they did, and write what they wrote? Were they just lying, or is it possible it's true?
Asking those kinds of questions, and then reading the Bible, led me to the conclusion, without social pressure, that it is true. Past generations have not been bad about explaining these things. And when you hear about "a personal relationship with Jesus", this is what they meant. A direct, personal faith based on your own individual seeking of God, rather than a set of functions or rituals handed to you by a church. But you have to do the work. You have to ask, seek and knock. That is the essence of Protestantism. It seems that somewhere in the last 20-30 years, that got lost, and instead it was all about rock concerts, theater seating and even coffee.
What an interesting story! I am so glad you pushed on and searched for answers rather than throwing it all aside. I'm sure you can look back now and see how God was leading you and keeping you safe within His care. I have to be very grateful that I grew up pre-internet, but it was also difficult to find the answers I was seeking. My church was a good, loving place and I totally knew God loved me, but it took an actual intervention from God to explain to me that I was separated from him by sin. From then on, I was determined to follow Christ, but it was hard work to find answers and let God work in my life.
Loved reading your pursuit of Truth. I love reading the different ways the Holy Spirit brings people to the faith. Very inspiring.
Some good insight in your observations
Nicely written. Have you thought about doing a podcast yourself?
Vapor Trails, thank you for sharing your story. I can identify with quite a bit of it. I completely agree about people not having a firm foundation. I’m on my journey now.
“We do theology in the light so we can stand on it in the dark’
I see, so this is what's happening to me -- thank you for this podcast, it follows discovering your book, 'Another Gospel?', which follows in turn discovering the term deconstructed Christian. Dealing with death of a loved one, along with the disappointment of seeing that my life trajectory will never follow what is lauded as the ideal Christian life trajectory in my church -- faith, leadership, finding a husband/wife, a good job, house and kids, grandkids, etc. -- and other things, those led me to this lonely place Harber describes.
The Deconstructed Christian movement is both comforting and disturbing. Comforting because it gives name to a place where a number of Christians are at who are in a place of doubt and haven't found the safety of being able to discuss it in their church community (something the church needs to change their approach on), and disturbing because even while that allows people a breath, in the next a replacement theology can easily slip in that legitimises that doubt to an extent that I don't think is healthy. Seen as a transitionary acknowlegement I think deconstructed Christianity as a good thing that promotes needed discussion. I don't believe it is meant to be a foundational place to build on, but it is people being honest and saying they're not in orthodoxy right now and trying to find out what the substance of their faith is.
Doubt is okay to admit to, and if that is where people are, they should have the grace given to be able to say it, and to work through it. But even the Teacher in Ecclesiastes kept one foot in wisdom as he navigated these unsettling waters, and even though he didn't end up where he used to be, it was a place guided by prudent process. I have to thank books like Love Wins by Rob Bell for jolting me (not its intention) to the dangers of throwing out even our framework, our compass, when our faith undergoes deconstruction, just what rises up to try and replace it. While it is good to examine the whys of our faith, it would be simplistic to burn down the barn rather than strip it to its bones.
That being said, it is an unsettling journey, and I pray anyone who finds themselves on that will end up better than when they started. If you know someone who is in that place, I urge you to be kind, to listen, to understand, to walk with them and support them even as they go through territory your theology may raise red flags to. Deconstructed people have been shaken, or have encountered theological dissonance. They long for authenticity, and some grieve the faith they have lost or realise is not there anymore. Please value those hearts, and that search.
Great story. He felt God was far off in his conservative upbringing, then God was far off when he went progressive. This shows the “deconstruction” phenomenon is not so simple. We all have our journey. Thank God he is now finding his way! Alisa’s best podcasts are the ones with people sharing their journeys. It’s beautiful. Praise God.
I relate to so much of what you discussed. I really appreciate your honesty, transparency, and conversation. I love your podcasts, Alisa. You have really helped to pull me out of a very dark place.
Thank you so much for this! I am currently going through my own deconstructing of my faith and there was so much that Ian mentioned that resonated with me. While I haven't crossed over and have no intention to follow the Progressive movement, I have purposefully made the conscious effort to start in the beginning and that is spending time studying the word of God and theology. As Ian mentioned, "We will never have our doctrine fully figured out," and I couldn't agree more! I truly believe that taking the time in the word helps to build upon our foundation. It strengthens our faith and allows us to fully know and experience Christ in our Union in Him. Thank you again and God Bless!
@Noel Hausler Brother, I'm still in the process of studying scripture and cannot answer this. I can only continue to pray and ask the holy spirit to guide me into all truth as Jesus promised that holy spirit would do. But, this I know that the more I spend time studying the word, I'm beginning to see as the scales fall off the very nature of who God is and Hos wonderful plan of redemption for us through His son Jesus Christ, the spotless lamb. That is where I place all of my faith and hope as I pick up my cross daily. God bless you.
Ian, great first podcast! Wow, what you said about being handed secondary issues as primary issues of doctrine in your early experience of evangelicalism is so good! And then I think progressive Christianity just exchanges one set of secondary issues for another you absolutely must sign on to.
all of this is truly humanism. Its sad how so many people fall to this nonsense, Im so glad she is explaining about this deconstruction of the gospel
Wonderful interview . I am blessed to hear this young man’s testimony .
Just this morning before I saw this video, my devotion is found in 2 Thessalonians 2 and I saw this verse "For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."-in verse 11. It's hard for me to think that people would be given to all sorts of delusions but it's present in the bible so it must be existing to people although I don't know who they are. Watching this video I meditated this verse reflecting these realities of Deconstructing Christians makes me say thanks to God of His Grace which enabled me to be protected. I have no hope if He didn't give me this Grace.
Wow......I just have to say Ian just completely blew my mind when he mentioned Pete Rolllins. Here he is talking about these big names like Rob Bell, and he throws in the name Pete Rollins, and I’m like.......Noooooooo........He can’t possibly mean the same person......So I googled the name. And wow......I was literally shocked into speechlessness and couldn’t even form the words to explain to my husband what was freaking me out so bad.
I spent a few years in Northern Ireland, one year with YWAM (2001-2002) and one where I went back as a missionary at a community centre in Belfast (2003-2004). When I was with YWAM we had this AMAZING teacher one week that I told my husband about who ripped a bible in half on the first day and talked about how we need to question what we were taught by our parents and learn to have our own faith, find answers for ourselves, and even though I was super sick that week of teaching I would drag myself out of bed every day just to get to the class with him because he was sooooo good! He would talk about Kant and Nietzsche and made me think philosophy was some really interesting stuff. Then when I came back and was living in Belfast I heard he was doing “Church in a Pub”, where they would do this really artsy thing with pictures and spoken word, etc, and I went quite a few times and thought it was pretty interesting. But then one of the times Pete stood up and was swearing a lot (which wasn’t terribly odd), and it just seemed “off” to me. I remember telling my husband (who was just my boyfriend then) that it seemed like the people at Church in a Pub we’re trying too hard to prove how cool and modern they were. But at the same time, I’ve always remembered Pete and his teaching and stretching of my faith as a very positive thing. So I’m thinking.......no.......it can’t be the same person. But as soon as I googled his name and saw a photo, yep.....that’s the Pete Rollins I knew. Wow. So I’m completely struck dumb by the fact that he’s so big in the progressive church, and that I witnessed the early stages of someone who would be such a big part of a movement my husband and I only just learned about in February. Wow. It’s definitely a God-thing that I dodged that bullet, that even though I was really drawn to it, drawn to Pete’s gift for speaking, and it must have been the Holy Spirit nudging me to be uncomfortable at the Church in a Pub. Wow.
Isn't it sometimes amazing what God protects us from? I had read Blue Like Jazz and thought it was pretty cool... it gave me the feels. And then we moved to Michigan... and were in a small church with a bunch of people that were fun and smart and loved Jesus. Well some of us couples were in a small group and did some Bible studies. Then they wanted to do some Rob Bell videos (his church was half an hour away). AAAGGGGHHHH. We were trying to figure out how to tell them he was basically not a Christian, when we had to move away for job reasons. Now we're trying to figure out how to tell our pastor (who is right on) that the denomination our church belongs to is becoming progressive. (praising Richard Rohr, etc.)It make me want to cry.
I appreciate you and your podcast addressing progressive Christianity. It’s been a temptation for me to fall into. You remind me that we can be orthodox and kind.
Thank you for this, Alisa and Ian. If anyone is reading comments before watching and trying to decide if it is worth an hour of your life, it is. Please listen. If you can't spare an hour at least tap 51:25 and get at least 18 seconds. Those 18 seconds are worth more than a lifetime of studying apologetics.
That was so good I didn't want it to end. 😭🙏
What a wonderful testimony! He's very encouraging and I've been blessed with much to ponder because of him. Wow!
great message from this young man
Love the interview, it really resonates with my own observations and experiences. Remaining in Jesus Christ and trusting God’s leading has shown me He is truly a Loving God and Good Shepherd. His body is broken, He is the Head and His blood has been shed for our sins, so this is a beautiful life that we have when we exist in Him. With our Lord and King He works through our weaknesses to reveal His strength - thank God!
Thank you, Alisa. _You are a pretty good listener, Alisa!_
I so agree. That is what makes these podcasts so good. One of many things. Certainly one of her gifts. Many gifts. This channel has been such a blessing.
@@jasonsiebold Amen, Jason. The empathy she demonstrates is so real you could cut it with a knife!
This was fantastic! I loved every second!
So eloquently put Ian. Thankyou both so much for this poscast
Thanks for this.
I was in a church in the 80s to 90s that went through this deconstruction via various teachings that I still hear now. Nothing new under the sun. A church of 200+ with a national and becoming international prominence was destroyed. It a long story but one that made the National press in the UK here at the time. I think some of the progressive teaching allowed for practices that eventually destroyed the church and the faith marriages and lives of many.
I could tell more but now 25 years on I can see some of what happened more clearly. Beware when Jesus is made less than He is. I could say more if anyone needs to know and may help. Phil
Phil Pattison Yes Phil, I'm in Scotland, and would like to know more about this. I've been 13 years without a church because the local churches here are Progressive Church of Scotland where the emphasis is "doing church" differently in order to attract more people in. No doctrine, no teaching, talkettes for christianettes, same sex marriage and gay clergy, no mention of sin or regeneration or salvation. Just social justice gospel. And yoga classes and church bingo etc etc. It's a feel-good social outing on a Sunday with poetry/readings from progressive writers, PowerPoint shows featuring artwork and sculpture, and of course dramatisations and sometimes a magic show if the audience is lucky.
Sorry for not getting back quicker. I will reply with more tomorrow as late now. If you want to start looking into it look up the Nine Oclock Service Sheffield. There is some factual and non factual stuff out there but will give you a start and the background. When you've got a bit of info message against nd ask any questions you want and I'll answer best I can
Phil Pattison thanks so much, will now do my research.
@@psalm1197 David Pawson is a wonderful man of God who you can listen to on You Tube. He has passed away, but his teachings are ageless and 100 % biblically based. Same with Troy Black, and David Hernandez who are young, and solidly biblically based. David Hernandez's teachings helped me to understand so very much in the beginning, and still does. The wonderful Charles Spurgeon was my first man of God I read, and now can also listen to on You Tube.
Hit a wall or hit an end of the road. God meets us at our darkest. Yes powerful!
Interesting. I appreciate that he was not afraid of those “progressives” and their apparent beliefs. It sounded to me that “legalistic” adherence to ways of framing reality is more of a problem than is study, exploration, learning, adventure and questioning. I heard an appreciation for an atmosphere of grace ... to hear, explore and question... in a non rushed or fearful environment.
Am i hearing this well? Is this close to what he is saying?
So informative. I appreciated the comparison of the views of God between traditional Christianity and Progressive Christianity
How does your audio sound so good and I don't see a mic? Are you using a boom?
This was great! You are an excellent interviewer, Alisa! Is there a resource/book you'd recommend (or maybe Ian mentioned one and I missed it) that goes through the basic beliefs (and the whys behind them) of the orthodox church. As I'm raising my own children and they are asking good questions, I'm realizing that I am weak in this area of theology. Thanks again - your videos are very helpful!
I, too, would appreciate this assistance. I understand some of the catechisms are helpful, but would appreciate something I could use to ground our children.
Thank you!
Huge respect for this man’s clarity & authenticity… amazing actually.. Q: why is Christianity such a mess of conflicting doctrine, perspectives, interpretation… if this man struggled to navigate these turbulent religious waters… Christianity presents a thousand conflicting faces… who knows which is the right one? And this mess is just the western tradition… Eastern Orthodoxy is another world … and through history ten thousand different perspectives… each Christian saying his or her way is where it’s at … I just became cynical about it all …
Wonder if being 'Christian' was not based on 'belief-creed' but on 'feeding poor, showing mercy, loving enemies, forgiving the sins of others, ....' Many churches today are more based on Paul than on Jesus.
Listening to this young man wind through his daily internet existence was exhausting ... weaving through endless people's opinions. I thought to myself, "it's a miracle that he was able to maintain his sanity." It's a miracle that any of these young people survive it. it's like surviving an everyday mine field "existence." What an unbelievable way to live. Just imagine how many have become intellectual/emotional zombies as a result. Total insanity.
I find it interesting that these young people who doubted the orthodox Christianity of their parents, eventually returned to it. Traditional Christianity has stood the test of time for thousands of years, and will continue to stand! It is similar to questioning/ disagreeing with your parents' parenting views/methods, to eventually find yourself applying some or most of those methods with your own children.
It's the "train up a child in the way he should go and when he is older he won't depart from it".
The church I used to belong to promoted Rob Bell, Rick Warren, etc. My husband and I clearly saw how twisted these guys were, and rejected their teaching. The church didn't see it, and considered us divisive, dogmatic, and legalistic. Eventually, we left that church when the pastor allowed (and defended) one of the congregants to "witness" to the church about his near-death, visit to Heaven experience.
ALISA IS THE BEST! She inspired me to create my own channel refuting the lies of Progressive Christianity! Check it out!
That leads to a freer easier life without so many rules just being good people!!!!!!!🤔
Thanks Ian and Alisa...This was so good.
This is a very interesting interview.
“Progressive Christianity” ≠ Christianity
I voted for and will vote for Trump not because he is a moral exemplar but because he stands uniquely in between the radical, secular liberalism and Marxism that seeks to destroy the West.
Donald Miller came and spoke at my Christian University. I wish I could go back there to that time (or even go there now) and share a counterpoint. Such a sad deterioration of a beautiful place has occurred in the last 15 years.
So many Christian colleges and universities are falling! I read somewhere that they can't get accredited unless they off spiritual formation classes?!
I just found your channel and I am loving it. Can you please explain so e of your terms like deconstruction & reconstruction in the context of faith. Thank you!!
47:00 love that part about Orthodoxy
Another great podcast Alisa!
I would love to know what Theological course Ian Harber completed. Or could you recommend a good online course. Thank you for this and many other insightful episodes.
Hey Samantha, it was the Training Program through The Village Church Institute in Dallas. Incredible program. There's a few theological points I don't completely line up one (ie. Calvinism), but their charity and ability to communicate the basic doctrines and the story of Scripture was amazing. Lots of great reading came from it.
I’ve been doing some wonderful modules online through George Whitfield College, South Africa. It’s called Explore. The best one to start with is The Life and Works of Jesus. It takes you through the Gospel accounts and has been such a blessing to me. Last December, we took our whole extended family through it over the holidays. There’s an optional exam at the end of each module which you can also do online. Explore is very inexpensive and it has strengthened our faith and confidence in the truth of the gospel so much. Please give it a try!
I don't understand what the great fear is about progressive Christianity. Doesn't Jesus himself provide a template for this 'growing up', or 'moving forward' thru his teaching structure of "you have heard it said...but I say to you..."??? In this way (I think anyhow) isn't Jesus seeking to move us from simple, fear-based obedience to the law upward to a higher dimension of spiritual awareness and growth?? I take this to mean that it is important to grow up, to leave home, to think differently, to expand your thinking, to progress in your understanding, etc, etc, etc.... But, I'll probably be accused of being 'progressive' I suppose...
I kind of understand why you understood that but it also sounds like you did progress but maybe away from God to your personal awareness 🤔
One of the best things we can do for new generations is tell them how it was before these monsters came to dominate popular culture and academia. They need to remember the ways of their elders, their forefathers, their faith, their culture, and not believe the racist lies against their people and heritage.
Re-vangelical here ✋
Satan deceives humans that they can be like God.
Great interview, I appreciated the vulnerability and the tone throughout. A couple things I would mention. I am glad that Ian has found a way of believing that feels loving and liberating to him. For me, there was also a period of time where the dynamic view of so-called-historic-Christian-orthodoxy you find in the writings of people like Kevin Vanhoozer and NT Wright felt lifegiving and expansive. But Ian made an interesting comment near the end, '(so called) historic Christian orthodoxy can hold the weight of your life'. That is really the question for spirituality isn't it? Can your beliefs 'hold the weight of your life'? If your life includes real, honest, give and take relationships with atheists, non Christians, Muslims, and LGBTQ folks than so-called-historic-Christian-orthodoxy won't be able to 'hold the weight of your life' for ever. It certainly can for awhile, but not forever, if you keep growing. Ian, at some point in the next 10-15 years your current beliefs will not be able to 'hold the weight of your life' anymore. When that happens I would encourage you to take another look at the writings of people like Rob Bell, Pete Rollins, and Richard Rohr, they might hit you in a different way than how you read them when you were in high school. Thanks for sharing your story, keep loving, keep growing, keep searching!
A very wise and gentle insight!
Hmm...sounds good but you've forgotten that Jesus has called you to be salt and light to the world around you. That can come at an extremely high price, so... I would ask: are the teachings of Jesus (including eternal punishment) holding the weight of your life as you seek friendship with people coming from polar opposites as you? I mean, it's great to have real relationship with a Muslim, but don't forget that they consider our New Testament as an abomination, and denounce everything that makes us Christian (e.g. resurrection, deity of Jesus, salvation in Christ alone, Trinity, etc.); or atheists/non-Christians, some of whom long to see your demise as a Christian and in that "friendship" offer nothing but uncertainty and doubt; or even honest relationships with LGBTQ folks, some I know personally (some non-Christian), who can never give a Biblically sound reason for how they've arrived at their conclusions... and as for encouraging the reading of Bell, Rollins and Rohr(?), well... same thing, there's never a Biblically sound reason for what they believe and are themselves probably the same authors Ian read as his faith deconstructed, given that they are liberal progressive revisionists... Read John 6: 60-70 and you'll see that the teachings of Jesus need to accepted by faith and you have to build your faith (Jude v.20), otherwise you'll turn and run when things get tough, just like His first followers... blessings :-)
RDM Seems like we read the Bible a bit differently, lol. I was an evangelical for thirty years (humanist Christian now). I can assure you I have not forgotten any of what Jesus taught. I don’t recall the part where he taught his followers to be so afraid of people with different beliefs that you should avoid being friends with them. The faith you describe is one that hides from the world in fear. If your fundamentalist faith is true, then you have nothing to be afraid of from having deep relationships with non-Christians (or progressive Christians for that matter). If your version of God exists, he does not need you to defend him, he can take care of himself. The fact that you would avoid deep friendship with people who don’t share your beliefs, seems to indicate that on some level, you don’t have confidence in what you believe and are afraid you would lose your faith if you really tested it. As someone who left behind the evangelical belief system, my testimony to you is there is nothing to be afraid of. You don’t need an omnipotent god or an infallible Bible to live a fearless, liberated life. The problem is original shame not original sin, and hell is only real if you make it for yourself and others in this life. Furthermore, as I already said, if your beliefs are actually true, then there is no need to be afraid either. You can confidently live in deep relationship with atheists, progressive Christians, Muslims, Mormons, wiccans, and yes LGBTQ folks. You can read Bell, Rollins, and Rohr with no trepidation. If your God is in control then act like it...
If the Gospel is true, and it is. And Jesus all He said He was...then it WILL hold the weight of your life! He's the sustainer of the whole universe!
@@CB-fb5mi friend, let's agree to disagree. The only reason I'm alive today is because Jesus resurrected me from a physical death in June 2002. I can tell you that hell is exactly as he describes and is a very real place. That's why I'm so passionate about truth, because I died as a non-believer and was brought back to life with a full revelation in Jesus and the reality of hell. But as said, let's agree to disagree, every blessing :-)
God's nature never changes, He Is and He always will be. He Is who He Is, that's what His name Jehovah even means - means I Am. Yaweh means He Is. He's God.
It would seem that 500 years ago Protestantism was "Progressive Christianity".... Reading through the Old Testament on into the New Testament it would seem that mans understanding of God was an ever evolving situation. The human mind can not begin to comprehend an eternal being or infinite space and time, yet we try so hard to decode ancient Scripture as if we'll some how gain an unquestionable understanding of a God who transcends those things. Jesus said "you search the Scripture daily because you think in them you will find eternal life, but it is the Scripture that testifies to Me"....Jesus is the word of God and Scripture points us to Him. Jesus should be our guide when reading Scripture. IMO
Well Luther's goal was really to reform Catholicism away from some of its Progressiveness, back to more Biblical standards and practices. So protestants weren't really progressive.
Did he say he’s “for wokeness”?
👏🙏🙏
so is Ian Orthodox Christian? The story of God and CHrist and us IS much richer and deeper, I suggest also to read "The Unseen Realm" by Dr. Michael Heiser, Biblical scholar. I now understand the Bible better because the story is much grander and supernatural than just doctrinal.
Little "o" orthodox. Not Eastern Orthodox. But Heiser's work has been really helpful for me as well.
@@IanHarber so is there a church denomination out there that fits that view? I'm looking for a church.
A new fad ?
Hey there is not much cure this this disease. This is just spirit of the Laodicean sub-age within it super arching church-age like McDonalds in that industry. Genuine Christians just have to work around it rather than try fix it. I was a Black Belt in punches & kicks based style at young age. To be a complete UFC fighter you need also Grappling/wrestling skills which endeavored to learn later. And I think @UCskQEEbNowtaWFlIDW65g2Q is hot !
There's no such thing as deconstruction and reconstruction. Remember demas? Christianity isn't something you float in and out at will.