Spiritual Deconstruction: How My Faith Survived
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- Опубликовано: 22 апр 2021
- Spiritual deconstruction is a huge movement right now. Here I share how I survived my own deconstruction process, and how it ultimately strengthened my faith.
See my response to Bart Ehrman here: • Did Jesus Claim to be ...
See Rhett McLaughlin's full deconstruction story here: • Rhett's Spiritual Deco...
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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Website: gavinortlund.com/
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My books:
--Why God Makes Sense in a World That Doesn’t: The Beauty of Christian Theism: www.amazon.com/Makes-Sense-Wo...
--Retrieving Augustine’s Doctrine of Creation: Ancient Wisdom for Current Controversy: www.amazon.com/Retrieving-Aug...
--Anselm’s Pursuit of Joy: A Commentary on the Proslogion: www.amazon.com/Anselms-Pursui...
--Finding the Right Hills to Die On: The Case for Theological Triage: www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-...
--Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals: Why We Need Our Past to Have a Future: www.amazon.com/Theological-Re...
2017 was the biggest year for me with regard to wrestling through doubt. It was my first year in seminary, and all I can say is that I woke up one day and the Christian story had lost its ring of truth to my ears. Only way I know how to explain it. For about 2-3 weeks I severely despaired over the idea that the whole thing was false. A combination of many factors - some intellectual, some psychological/emotional/spiritual - brought me through that phase. But then for the rest of that entire calendar year I faced other forms of doubt, going on to wrestle with the question of God's character and goodness, and many passages in Scripture that were troubling to me. One of the biggest graces from God to me in that time was the living testimony of my wife. She was so un-phased by my doubt, so full of empathy and yet also confidence. She prayed for me relentlessly and listened intentionally. I thought, "If within the Christian framework marriage is supposed to be a living example of how Jesus loves His people, then God must love and be committed to me vastly beyond what I could hope or imagine."
wonderful testimony Chase. Thanks for sharing.
Wow!! I love this. Your wife sounds like a true treasure. What a blessing! I’m so glad you found your way back to Jesus. 🙏🏻
This sounds a lot like my story, my wife has been great, and the Lord has been with me even though I often feel like my life is … like I’ve wasted what I was given. But hopefully God will give me … peaceful confidence… eventually
@@AnUnhappyBusiness God is for you.
Hi Chase 👋🏼
A very similar thing happened to me. Thanks be to God for his faithfulness to both of us 😊
I am a Catholic and I find you the most convincing protestant on the internet. Keep up the good work. God is truly working through you to bring people to Christ.
Thank you Andrew for the kind words. God bless you!
Agreed
I couldn't agree more Andrew! Gavin your experience is so close to my own and I am a Restorationist Christian. How God created this world is interesting and something I would love to know. I believe He enjoys and is encouraging our desire to figure out how He did it but it isn't core to my faith in Christ.
Hmmm well no 1 your church needs a HUGE amount of bad shit to be ignored, that either makes you an immoral person or an ignorant person to remain part of that church or you just do not care how repugnant the catholic church and its history is
"Praying works"
For someone who struggles with depression and anxiety like me, and who's constantly labeled as an "overthinker", this is the axis on which all the cogs of life rest.
When my brain tries to eat me alive, I just run to Jesus.
Thanks Gavin for your honesty and braveness.
I resonate so much, Fox. I also struggle with anxiety and depression, and am an "overthinker".
Same!Praise the Lord that He comforts us and clears our mind out.
Same
Amen. God has continually proven Himself to be more powerful and more trustworthy than my neuroticism
Amazing. Praise God!! ❤
Man you took my thoughts and put words brilliantly to them. Great job. Love this video.
Wow so just ignore all the vile crap and everything is OK? You a catholic by any chance ?
Deconstruction for me was extremely painful, suffering such trauma. I recently sought help. Recovery From Religion is a great resource. Highly recommend.
Somewhere between 2004-2006 I started to doubt my faith in Islam (which I had been a Muslim since 1988 at the age of 15) and after studying till my brain exploded and some other factors of God's interference, I started to embrace Christianity (but I did so screaming and kicking lol but through prayer and other factors I slowly and assuredly walked away from Islam. after some time of peace in the Lamb, I have come to another fork in the road and that is the Catholic and Protestant and the different nuances that go along with that fight. in many ways it is more gruesome and bloodier than the Islam and Christianity debate. lol two things I am certain in my faith and that is God, His Christ crucified and raised. So with the rest (give or take issues) I am still wrestling with the nuances and differences in practices, theology on some levels (among Christian groups). It has been many years but God has rest for the weary, tired, and weak... but the fact that I am still fighting shows that when I am weak, I am strong and I long to hear Him say "Well done my good and faithful servant".
God bless you on you faith journey. Anyone having the courage to come from Islam and come into Christ is bold beyond words. Be blessed on your journey brother, God will sort things out.
God bless
God bless you brother. I’m also in the middle of the Protestant Catholic struggle right now. I was raised Baptist but became atheist before turning back to Christ in 2014. Over the last year or so I’ve been investigating the claims of Catholicism and orthodoxy. It’s so difficult, and I was hoping I would find a smoking gun that would tell me: you should be X! I only realized in the last month or two I don’t think I will find that. At the end of the day you have to make a leap of faith
This is a really great testimony. When doubts arise, it is so important to keep on working on it. Many of the "de-conversion" stories seem to feature a person finding a good argument against a single part of their Christian worldview and throwing the rest in the trashcan without much effort to preserve it.
Thanks Acts. Yeah, someone else remarked that fundamentalists and deconstructionists often have in common a similar "all or nothing" thinking, and I thought it was a perceptive remark, though perhaps not always accurate in every case of course.
Ummm how about proving your god even exists
How about defending the vile morals in your book
How about demonstrating jesus even existed
@@gowdsake7103 There’s plenty of apologists available.
Go look them up.
I’m coming out of Mormonism. My first domino was the founding prophet, and it turns out that’s the biggest domino because it all hinges on him. I’m slowly feeling my way into Christianity and it’s freaking difficult man, there’s so much stuff I don’t know and there’s a big part of me that’s like “you were lied to about God. How do you know everyone else isn’t lying too?” And then you look at all the shady pastors and the thousands of confident denominations and the sex abuse scandals and it’s just…it’s hard.
just said a prayer for you Dustin. The Lord bless you.
Hang in there! ❤
I would recommend the channel inspiring philosophy for you, go watch their videos, and for your particular problem, you should watch his video the lesson of Samson.
I never was in the Mormon church but brother I have struggled and wrestled with the same things. How and why, keep praying!!! God hears you!
I know your comment is a year old and a lot can happen in a year. But I wanted to leave a brief comment of encouragement. I am a former Latter Day Saint also, but when I left the LDS faith I went into atheism for 16 years. It is a difficult journey, to be sure. But thanks be to God that you are finding Jesus now. I know those feelings of distrust. Spiritual betrayal takes time to heal. But trust in God. He alone is faithful. I pray that you have been growing in faith over this last year.
Love the honesty. So many Christians are know it all's. I respect doubts and fear.
We all have them, because we're all human. I haven't ever doubted God's existence, thank you Jesus, and I pray that he will hold me fast so that I never do. I was getting lured by universalism and some liberal views of scripture, basically because of culture rot. I guess that was my deconstruction. I feel for Christians that go into schools, esp. universities these days. It's like an industrial meat grinder that destroys the faith of so many, and these poor souls come out not even believing in truth about much of anything anymore.
I was never a YEC but I have wrestled with evolution since I was in high school. I had a prof in college who was the first to say he was a Christian and believed in evolution. I think Michael Jones aka inspiring philosophy has given one of the better arguments for intelligent design and evolution being compatible. His series on genesis is fantastic and shifted a lot of my thinking. Thank you for this testimony and your humility.
"Theistic evolution: a scientific philosophical and theological critique" is a fantastic work on why evolution is not at all viable with Christianity. I recommend checking it out
Observing nature makes common descent much less plausible. In my perspective it is preposterous.
Hi Gavin, thanks for the video! I had a crisis of faith after about 10 years of being a Christian. For 10 years I was SO sure of my faith. It's like I was impenetrable to doubt. I was bulletproof. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, everything inside me collapsed. I thought I was losing my faith. This was accompanied by panic attacks. I had no idea what to do. It was an incredibly scary time.
It has marked me to this day. I guess you could say I'm more humble and open today? Like you, I did a deep dive into everything I could get my hands on.
Today, I still have doubts. There are things that I would love to have an answer on. Then, there are things that I'm sure about. Like you said about the gospels, I find Jesus and the gospels compelling and reliable records.
There is a glue that has held me together throughout all this. Like you said toward the end, it sounds cheesy, but I KNOW Jesus. I KNOW HIM. I might have questions and doubts but I can't turn away. I may find the counter arguments to Christianity weak which therefore bolsters my faith in Christianity but at the end of the day, it's Christ himself who I feel calling me. I've been born again.
When I hear deconstruction stories (and I listen to a lot as well), there seems to be a casual casting aside of Christianity which gives me pause to ask, was it ever REALLY real to you? Or did you just THINK it was real? They would say they thought it was real. But, the relief they express over ditching what they thought was Christianity tells me they may not have ever had their heart softened by grace to start with.
I could be wrong. Just my two cents.
Thanks for all you do!
Thanks Alex. I love this: "I may find the counter arguments to Christianity weak which therefore bolsters my faith in Christianity but at the end of the day, it's Christ himself who I feel calling me." I relate to that. The arguments help, but at the end of the day there is this experiential element to it all. Thanks for sharing this Alex.
Take a look at the latest episode of "The Atheist Experience", there are several calls from Christians that you might identify with.
This! I think a lot do these people, like you said, sadly, never had Jesus in their heart to begin with.
I questioned things in my late 20s, and it was a very difficult time for me, but God was in my heart the whole time, and I kept praying for Him to reveal His truth to me-even if I didn’t like the answer.
God bless you!
Not sure if you're interested in my story, but I want to share bc your transparency and humility resonate with me. I am currently/have been deconstructing for a few years now. I honestly didn't know it was a "trend" or what it was called until late last year I think? (Some back story: I grew up Baptist and was in church leadership from middle school through college. In college I was apart of a different denomination. I lead Bible studies, mentored students, and was on track to go to seminary.) My goal from the beginning before was to gather more information, and draw conclusions based on the information it was to deconstruct parts of Christianity and not to leave altogether. I really struggled in college because I took a lot of Christian and Judaic studies classes, and the more I learned about how history unfolded, the less "holy" or "hallowed" my faith seemed...it felt more problematic and questionable...and then as political things unfolded the more I felt the need to further reevaluate the foundations of our faith. I'm now mid thirties. I can't deny experiences I've had with the holy spirit, but if anything, I feel more like God has been misrepresented for so long that the way church now is represented is way different than what people were doing and experiencing in "biblical times". I want to deconstruct what is problematic.... And what is questionable.... I want to compare notes with the Bible and with other historic documents at the time.... I want to compare Christian practices and rituals with those of other religions. I've noticed people feeling and experiencing God and with the same or similar results as Christianity. I used to have a reason that Christianity was the only way, but the more I've learned and the more I've observed, discount others' faith seems more problematic. someone pointed out the link between missions and colonialism, and I honestly have never been the same since.
One thing that has been nice is that I don't feel mad at God or believe less in him. My view of who he is growing and expanding, and I do still have faith that if he is everything I was taught to believe in, our relationship will withstand this season. You talking about the extremes really resonates with me. The extremes are turbulent and usually do more harm than good. There is a real humility in in admitting that you don't know something and genuinely wanting to understand something outside of your comfort zone.
As far as evolution, my thought has always been that it only makes sense that an intelligent God would make his creation in such a way that it could adapt with changing atmospheres over time.
Anywho, I know this is very long and may not be read by anyone, but I appreciate you sharing, and this was helpful to listen to for the sake of my own personal journey...great food for thought. Best wishes to you on your journey. 🙂
I’ve been going through a similar process, currently stuck in that place of angst. After a lot of thought I’ve become convinced of God’s existence for all the reasons you mentioned. It makes overwhelming sense to me. But I’ve also become disillusioned with evangelical Christianity and the culture I was raised in. The very idea of religion feels foreign to me right now. It really does feel like an impossible situation because I want to know the truth, and I really don’t think atheism is the right answer, but I really struggle at times to feel like Christianity is the answer either. Right now I feel that angst as much as I ever have, so this video is super helpful. I really appreciate the honesty and your take on this, it’s very encouraging.
may the Lord guide you and direct you to peace.
There is zero demonstratable evidence for a god all you have is arguments from ignorance and look at me I am soooooooo special a magical sky daddy will save me
This. "Is my brain playing tricks on me". Or "my brain is too tiny and is going to explode from the combination of information I consume trying to understand things and of the ever present angst".
Thank you so much for sharing this. It felt familiar, and I needed the encouragement at the end of the video ❤
Thanks for sharing this Gavin. Peace of Christ be with you
Thanks Daniel, and also with you.
I, too, had a crisis of faith recently in my 2nd year of seminary. Yet, what kept me from losing my faith was the undeniable living presence of the Holy Spirit within me. How could I actually deny what has given me such a deep joy? After recognizing the assurance of that, I slowly pieced back together the pieces of faith that I was struggling with. God bless
BOLLOCKS
I cannot thank you enough for this video. For the past couple months, I have been battling with intense anxiety which eventually led to a faith crisis. I’ve watched this a few times and have gotten closer to God than I have ever been in the past months. I believe that if you truly want to believe, the Lord will provide the material, content and verses to deliver you. Thank you for this once again, it helps to have someone who understands just how scary it is.
I went through this about 12 years ago. The faith built on the ashes is stronger and more joyful
Thankyou, this is an encouragement I needed to hear, and I'm also at a loss to understand how faith works when I'm full of faith and praise in the morning but my afternoon my mind is battered by waves of questions and uncertainties.
May the Lord guide you and direct you.
The algorithm just brought this to my timeline… and can’t believe I missed this one. It’s now one of my favorite presentations from you Gavino. Thank you so much for your thoughtful clarity and generous kindness.
love you Jay!!
Thanks so much for sharing. I’m in the middle of questioning Evangelicalism/Protestantism and searching out Catholicism, but I watch your videos to balance out the perspective. You do a great job of being extremely honest and understanding of others, and it’s so encouraging to hear reaffirmed that the core truth stands through all the questioning. Thank you!
Thank you for your honesty and integrity, Gavin
There is ZERO integrity here. Cherry picking ALL the bad bits is not honest
"It makes such sense, and it's as comfortable as putting your feet in your slippers in the morning."
Thanks for sharing your story 🔥🙌🏽
It has me alarmed as well. Someone I love has walked away… so I clicked to hear from you.
I am a Catholic listener/viewer of your channel and very much enjoyed this video! Thanks Gavin
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed!
Dr. Ortlund, thank you so much for your work in bringing people to Christ. ✝ I am in RCIA, and for awhile... I was only consuming Catholic content. Recently, I have re-gained a commitment to listen to other faith traditions within Christianity-and your specific theological knowledge has immensely enriched my walk with God. I am so thankful I decided to look beyond my chosen denomination. I appreciate what you do so much!!! ♥✝
How could he do that ? by telling lies, by being utterly dishonest and immoral. He is a good christian maybe but a horrible person if he uses the bible as a moral book
Gavin, this was so encouraging- a person isn’t crazy to believe, or to *want* to believe in the face of extreme doubt, and the Lord is faithful to not simply meet us, but to wrestle with us in our doubt. He is not a fragile God. Thank you for sharing a glimpse into your win faith life with the channel!
Thanks Kate! So glad it was encouraging!
I’m watching this video for the second time in a span of a month. I’ve been walking this path, and it’s tough. Thanks for this 🙏🏼
You, The Ten Minute Bible Hour, and Inspiring Philosophy really helped me to find compelling answers to a lot of the questions, and yes, I've thrown stuff out because a lot of things I just don't know, but the core still remains:
There needs to be a cause for the universe and the resurrection of Jesus is very compelling!
...And oh boi, it's though sometimes, but yes, prayer helps!
A testimony of the faithfulness of God, I loved this last sentence!
Edit:
Btw. Do you mind learning German so I can interview you on my tiny channel 😜
Thanks a lot, so glad it was helpful!
Those same three channels really helped me out too, along with Bible Project's podcast and Mike Heiser's material.
@@joshuas1834 Mike Winger is great too. He's like hipster apologetics compared to Gavin, but easy on the brain, very firm in his convictions, layered in his approach and has that spark of joy and deep kindness.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 yeah I've listed to winger a bunch too. I really like his content and his heart.
Thank you so much Dr.Ortlund for making this video. You have no idea how much your empathy and advice comforted my soul.
Great job on this, thanks for taking it head-on.
thanks so much for this. honestly yesterday i felt as if i was going through my first moment of deconstruction and i was SCARED. but just like you said, i prayed and God delivered with His word which eased my heart. and then this morning... this video pops up going through exactly what i am feeling. all i can say is thank you, and praise God for He is so faithful.
You just described what I went through last year, though I didn't go that deep into research. My Pastor was a huge help for me.
thanks for sharing that! So glad you had a helpful pastor! My heart goes out to people who don't have that.
You captured so much of what I've been through. Appreciate it!
This was wonderful. Thanks Pastor!
Thanks for sharing this Gavin
Thanks for this, really enjoying the spirit and integrity of your videos. God bless
Personally, I think people are putting way too much faith in "science". I've spent most of my adult life as an athiest/moral nihilist and studied evolution for years and I don't put my faith in it. The more honest I was about the state of academia and the more I dug, the more I found a cesspool of nepotism, sacred cows, and incredibly bad research. Everything man does is corrupted by sin, his greed and dishonesty can't be so easily brushed aside.
The closer I got to Christianity the more the human condition made sense. Sin, our hopelessness, our idol worship (including scientism), combined with hubris, leading to our ruin, cyclical turning away from our creator and inevitavle judgement. Perverse things being taught to children, core concepts being reinvented to suit man's perversions. People compare these large shaky grandiose theories to technology and say "you use an iPhone, that's science, right? Duhr" but there's a world of difference between functional utility driven, industrial/commercial science that yields products you can use and understand in real time and the types of theories posited by evolutionists and theoretical physicists.
The last 2 years has put on full display the evil that can be done by scientific endevours; our greed, idolatry, and seeker appealing mentality has lead to some very bad outcomes that well have to deal with for decades.
Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea that much of what we've been taught in secular society is, to varying extents, illusions; complex illusions with inner consistency to varying levels, but illusions none the less.
Just my 2 cents.
Well-said
Humanity made so much more sense when I became a Christian.
Yeah, when I was a kid in the 70's, Leonard Nimoy/Spock told us about the impending Ice Age. I'm still waiting on the glacier and pissed I cannot make the ultimate snow fort..... So much for the settled science.
@@JacobLawlesssthat's interesting. The world and humanity with their vast array of religions made more sense when I left Christianity.
A major problem with “Science” is that it’s not actually “Just science” that is the issue. It is EXTREMELY common for scientists to skate back & forth between making scientific statements and philosophical statements, yet to pretend that all they are doing is making scientific statements. And this will of course fool many people, so that the error trickles down into all sections of society.
Thanks for this video and all that you do. I’m currently in my season of doubt and you’re right, it’s a scary place to be if you actually care about your faith and how it impacts your life. I’ve been studying, praying, and talking to others. I’m hopeful things will turn around.
Jeremiah 29:13 “And ye shall seek me and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” That has been my experience. We don’t have to know and understand everything. Trust in Him first, knowing and peace follow.
I loved this man! Be encouraged and thank you for sharing your story. It truly was a gift to me to hear it.
So glad to hear that!!
Thank you for your vulnerability. I’m always encouraged by your content. Thank God for his goodness!
I really appreciate your eloquent, yet no-frills approach to conveying truth on this channel. Thanks for your ministry.
Thank you for sharing your experience and truth. It is so helpful!
Gavin, I really appreciate your honesty and your intellectual search for truth. You continue to impress me.
This channel is incredible! Really enjoyed this video. Very encouraging!
Thanks Lucas! So glad it was encouraging.
Thank you! So honest. Love this!
Dr. Ortlund, I cannot possibly thank you enough for this video. It affected me deeply and really got me thinking in the right way. Bless you.
Yes Praying works, in very different ways each time.
Thank you for the testimony,. Many of your videos have helped me to reconstruct and work through my own questions
So glad to hear that!
Thank you so much for this video!
I am grateful for the genuine humbleness, the spiritual sincerity and the academic effort and transparency of these videos. Please keep on doing them, and if there's any way I can support what you do here, please point me to it!
Blessings from a fellow reformed baptist in Colombia, South America
Thank you so much Manuel! Glad to be connected to you.
Gavin, You're thinking critically. It's great to hear.
Thank you Gavin I respect and appreciate your honesty!
Thanks John!
Thank you Gavin for being vulnerable and transparent. He is faithful and so kind.
I’m looking forward to this!
Great to hear! Hope you enjoy!
Great discussion. Glory to God
Thanks for posting this Gavin. This video was incredibly encouraging and helpful in showing a model of deconstruction in good faith. Praise be to God that He always meets us where we’re at!
Thanks Justin, glad it was encouraging!
Thanks for sharing your honest thoughts. My own deconstruction from synergistic pietism and subsequent reconstruction to monergistic sanctification has been wonderful. PTL for His unfailing grace.
I grew up in church and was lead astray by watching a lot of documentaries about big bang and evolution. God, in His grace, revealed Himself through a miracle. The Bible is true. Love you, hope you all will find the Truth.
You are not very sharp are you or honest
I just really appreciate this video. I appreciate your validation of doubt and questions. Your willingness to explore and question as a pastor! When it comes to psychology of faith, a helpful resource for me has been the Anatomy of the Soul by Curt Thompson, MD. He explores the impact of spiritual practices on the plasticity of the brain. Fascinating connection between neuroplasticity, memory, and spiritual disciplines. I’m a mid 30s pastor and have thoroughly enjoyed your exploration of subjects on doctrinal divisions, the historicity of the faith, and interviews with thought leaders outside of orthodox Christian perspective. Prayer works!
Thank you for this video. I find your work well balanced. And I agree with you about the overreaction.
Just a shout out Gavin, that my wife got me your Augustine book for Christmas and I am really enjoying it thus far. Thanks for taking on the topic in such great detail! Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year!
Thank you so much for this video. I grew up in a church that essentially taught literal 6 day creation as a test of orthodoxy. Then I started to study astronomy & paleontology for fun and that view started to crack in me. I did a lot of wrestling with God, I’m still a Christian, but I have to be careful who I share my views with because people can become so heated on that issue in the church.
@@HarlanK I appreciate your call to humility. I have no intention to destroy anyone’s faith, my own faith in Christ is very much intact & alive. I only expressed my understanding of how creation likely played out has changed since what was taught to me in my youth. And to add, I haven’t merely been influenced by random people on RUclips. I’ve studied from experienced scholars, many of whom are believers in God & Christ, like Dr. Ortlund.
Thank you for being so open and honest brother. I would love the chance to read your book one day, hoping it's soon!
thanks! The book on this video topic is out, its called "Why God Makes Sense in a World That Doesn't"
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in such a vulnerable way. I pray that this video, especially the practical suggestions at the end for those wrestling with similar doubts, will be helpful to others. Working out what parts of our understanding to deconstruct (and reconstruct) is important - seeking truth, I believe, will make that necessary. Your comments about angst and doubt and working through them resonate with me, and as I have worked through them with humility and honesty over many yearrs, my faith has grown. Looking forward to reading your apologetics book - hope it is coming soon.
Thanks Colin! The book comes out in October, here it is! www.amazon.com/Makes-Sense-World-That-Doesnt/dp/1540964094/
Thank you, Gavin. So helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for your story
This one should be interesting in light of recent "deconstructions".
Yeah it's a huge movement right now. Hope my own story is helpful for others.
This is so good Gavin.
Thanks for being honest.
And it will be great if you could start promoting your books and help us know what is in there :p
Wow. Thank you for sharing this. I can resonate so much with your story. These past few years have been so tough. My faith was in crisis mode last year especially. I had to confront my own legalism, the fundamentalism that was forced on me. There were a few Christians that truly helped me to hold on despite all the ugliness I was seeing around me. I wish I had heard of you sooner.
Legalism is a brutal bondage to break. It can get its tentacles in deep. I'd recommend Mike Winger as well. He's gentle but firm in scriptural conviction, and isn't the other extreme of the very liberal end, where you could be in danger of losing the essential core gospel doctrines. I loved his coverage of Christmas and defending that it wasn't pagan. There's a trend of legalism that wants to reject Christmas, most of our beautfiul traditional Christian holidays, because they always claim theres some pagan root of something about something that just has to ruin everything.
Thank you so much for all of your videos. I find them intellectually interesting and humble. I would love to watch more videos on your thoughts on evolution/creation. Thanks again!
Thanks Julie! So glad the videos are of interest to you.
Thanks again Pastor 👌🏼
Thanks so much Gavin. You're experience is so helpful and encouraging, especially as I've had some similar experiences. Glory be to our Lord Jesus Christ. When He returns, when shall be truly perfect in Him.
Thanks Will! Glad it was encouraging!
Hello and thank you. I enjoy your channel and always learn so much. This was helpful especially your wise and practical advice. It is good personally and pastorally. I am thankful God gave you such a good brain, education and dedication to help the body of Christ. I also really appreciate your gentleness and care with different points of view. Every blessing to you and your family.
Thanks so much for the encouragement Jo!
Thank you for what you do.
Thank you Gavin for sharing your story! I've seen so many of my friends deconstruct their faith and turn their backs on God; it hurts me, and honestly I'm not sure what to do most of the time. I went through a couple seasons of deconstruction and similar to you, my faith actually came out stronger, as I was able to really wrestle with the very difficult questions and ultimately rest in the grace of the Lord.
Thanks for sharing that! It seems like such a common movement right now. I have had a lot of friends go through it as well.
Thank you for testifying to God's faithfulness.
I grew up in a closed-minded church so i had many doubts but thanfully found apologetics. Thank you for your video gave!
Glad to hear this! Your welcome!
Dude, thank you so much for posting this. Being in the middle of doubt and faith can feel brutal and it is so important to have someone relay their experience that feels similar to my own.
Years ago, before these doubts became mainstream, I was ignorant to the reasons for God's existance. Now, after a sea of division and self wrestling, more and more reasons are being built, so perhaps we can at least thank the challenging doubts for that.
Could use some prayers, still wrestling with key questions.
Thanks Gavin for this video! I can relate to your struggles with ID and Evolution! This vulnerable video helps me understand you better and I apologize for any animosity I've had towards you lieing under the surface in our interactions.
no worries Michael! thanks for the kind response, and let's keep talking.
I completely relate to your story Gavin. Both the creation evolution debate and the fracturing of the church/denominational differences have been the battles for me. The classic arguments as well as the person of Christ encountered in scripture have always kept me anchored. Thank you for your vulnerability, God bless
Thanks for sharing that Will! God bless you.
Thank you for sharing, Gavin. My story is different, but I wholeheartedly agree with you that while I have "deconstructed" some things I grew up with, the center and foundation of my faith has become so much stronger. I suppose I've realized that too many things were part of the "center" when they shouldn't have been. Hopefully, it has made me more gracious to those who disagree with me on such things.
Thanks Jeremy! Yes, going through these experiences can definitely make us more gracious. I hope that has happened with me as well.
Thank you very much for this video! I actually was big fans of Rhett and Link and when their "deconstruction" stories came out I was very discouraged (especially since I have had similar doubts) despite their non-antagonistic tone. I think you provide a good response for people with doubts/angst with your own story and by suggesting a better foundation/core than Rhett and Link had (which was basically that they thought they only needed to believe in a historical Jesus).
Thanks Stephen, yeah I think sadly their stories will have a huge impact on other people.
God bless you Brother. I really appreciate your testimony in this area. It sounds like my experience has been quite similar. Your apologetics and charity towards others that disagree with Protestantism has convicted me of my shortcoming's In my polemic with my RC friends.
Thanks Adam, really appreciate that brother.
Just going back to watch this, and I caught this gem.
10:29 "I try to be conservative in terms of [not overstating claims] because I know that most intellectual errors happen by means of overreaction...🤔... if not most, many."
😂 well done!
Dr Ortlund. What a wonderful video. It could have been me in that chair. I honestly gave up “Christianity” at a very young age (12-15) because nothing I was being taught made sense. I only RE-entered the conversation because my kids were getting to the age where they were asking questions and I wanted to give them or point them in the right direction. My wife is Catholic so my first option was to first look there. When I started learning about the Church’s teaching on these exact items, creation, how Scripture is meant to be read, the proofs of Gods existence, I was really pissed. Why did people that I trusted (family) lead me to wasting 45 years of my life! I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to know that there is Truth out there! Thank you again!
Thanks for sharing this Robert! Happy to be connected to you brother.
@@TruthUnites after watching that video I finally realized why I like watching your content. I see a lot of your journey in my own journey. Peace.
Bob
You are going to love Paulogia's channel.
Thanks, Gavin. All you've said is helpful. I'm an evangelical and Reformed Christian with a scientific background. Regarding "evolution":
1. Unless I missed it (quite possible), I didn't see you define what you meant by evolution? Of course, in responding to a position, it's important to define our terms at the outset or else we might risk talking past one another. I think what's usually meant by "evolution" is neo-Darwinism. That's what someone like Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, and even the late great Ernst Mayr usually mean(t) by the term evolution. That's what Intelligent Design theorists like Michael Behe, William Dembski, Stephen Meyer, and others mean by the term evolution.
2. In addition, it's important to see the best arguments for and against a position like neo-Darwinism. I think one of the key problems with Rhett and Link (and those like them) is that they never attempted to look at the best arguments against neo-Darwinism. Rather they're largely dealing with fundamentalist Young Earth Creationists. (By the way, I'm not a YEC.) And even within YECs, I never saw Rhett and Link address the best of the YECs. Say someone like Todd C. Wood or Jonathan Sarfati. Indeed, Wood has even gotten into some controversy among fellow YECs when (from their perspective) Wood affirmed many of the tenets of neo-Darwinism. Yet Wood remains a YEC. Again, I'm not a YEC, but I appreciate Wood's stance which tackles the science head-on and admits many deficiencies in the YEC position. At the same time, Wood argues it's certainly possible to affirm many of the tenets of neo-Darwinism while maintaining a YEC position. Wood is a reasonable-minded YEC, but too many people including Rhett and Link dismiss YECs in general as if most all of them are of the same mind.
3. The arguments for and against neo-Darwinism aren't necessarily limited to scientific arguments. Obviously the science is foundational. However, neo-Darwinists often take philosophical positions in discussing neo-Darwinism or the implications of neo-Darwinism too. For instance, consider Dawkins' statements about how "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist", about the mere "appearance" of design as opposed to the reality of design, about how "the universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference", and so forth. I wonder if people like Rhett and Link have deeply considered the philosophical arguments and implications of, say, Dawkins' atheism and neo-Darwinism. Logically the two are separable, but someone like Dawkins sees a connection.
4. However, even if one accepts neo-Darwinism - which I don't, at least not whole hog - where's the logical inconsistency with being a neo-Darwinist and a theist? Consider someone like Francis Collins. Heck, even Michael Behe, who is one of the leading critics of neo-Darwinism, is a theistic evolution (e.g. Behe accepts universal common descent), though of course Behe would say he's not a neo-Darwinist. The crux of the matter in this case is whether evolution is fundamentally a guided or directed process (i.e. guided or directed by God in Behe's view as Behe is Catholic) or whether evolution is fundamentally an unguided or undirected process (i.e. accidental or random - and I mean random more in a philosophical sense than a scientific sense).
5. That brings me to my next point: there are other theories of evolution besides neo-Darwinism. For example, Joshua Swamidass (whom I have strongly disagreed with) is effectively a theistic evolutionist, though he's coy about it. But what's relevant here is that Swamidass doesn't subscribe to neo-Darwinism, and he will deny that he's a neo-Darwinist, but he does subscribe to a newer theory of evolution known as the Neutral Theory of (Molecular) Evolution.
6. Indeed, there are atheist and agnostic scientists who have sharply criticized neo-Darwinism. See University of Chicago professor James Shapiro and his book Evolution: A View from the 21st Century as a prime example. See Denis Noble of the University of Oxford and his book The Music of Life: Biology Beyond the Genome. See Gerd Muller at the University of Vienna and his book Evolution: The Extended Synthesis. I could list many others (e.g. Eugene Koonin, Eva Jablonka, Stuart Newman). But just look at a website called the Third Way of Evolution to see many secular scientists who criticize neo-Darwinism. These aren't fundamentalist Christians or otherwise religiously motivated. And most if not all of them affirm a different theory of evolution. But my point here is simply that neo-Darwinism is not beyond scientific criticism, even among secular scientists who argue for evolution.
6. In general, it's sufficient to criticize a theory or position even if we offer no alternatives to offer in its place. It's sufficient to criticize a theory on its own merits or demerits without arguing for an alternative option. In short, one can criticize neo-Darwinism without necessarily subscribing to intelligent design.
7. Regarding intelligent design, there are Christian theists who have criticized essential aspects of intelligent design, even if they remain friendly to intelligent design. (I guess this sort of parallels secular evolutionists criticizing neo-Darwinism while remaining friendly to evolution.) For instance, Alvin Plantinga and Del Ratzsch are notable Christians who have done this. There are various ways to argue for design, but not all of them are necessarily successful (e.g. design as an argument from analogy, design as an inductive argument, design as an inference to the best explanation, various Bayesian arguments for design). At this point, I'm inclined to agree with Plantinga and Ratzsch's criticisms against, say, Behe, and I'm inclined to agree with Plantinga and Ratzsch's arguments favoring "perceiving design". See the chapter on design in Plantinga's book Where the Conflict Really Lies.
I agree. I'm not sure whether what Gavin meant by "Intelligent Design" may actually have been Old Earth Creationism (as I see he has a video with Reasons to Believe from 5 years ago, and they are against evolutionary models), as generally the Intelligent Design camp is okay with common descent (i.e. "evolution"). While I'm still in the Old Earth Creationist camp, the debate on Unbelievable with Joshua Swamidass and Gunter Bechly gave me a lot of respect for the apologetical value of Intelligent Design. This book is also a great read for any Christian wanting to compare the different views: "Four Views on Creation, Evolution, and Intelligent Design", Ken Ham, Hugh Ross, Deborah Haarsma, Stephen C. Meyer
As a Catholic it is nice to watch one of these videos and be on the same side. Good video!
Thanks for sharing, Gavin. I discovered your videos recently and have really been enjoying them. I grew up YEC, moved to OEC, and have gone through a lot of the same thought processes and conclusions as you described. Over time I have moved to Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creationism and it has made my faith even stronger. I’m sure you’ve already read/watched most of this, but some great resources are BioLogos, Francis Collins, John Walton, Tim Mackie (Bible Project), Denis Lameroux, and Ben Stanhope.
Thanks Kane! Glad to be connected to you.
Thank you so much❤
I can relate a lot with what you have said. I myself am a very analytical and skeptical person and sometimes I will have weeks of sadness and doubts about my faith. But when I check out the arguments and ideas of atheists it honestly makes me even more depressed looking at the conclusion of a purely naturalistic worldview. I truly do think there are great reasons for faith but a lot of the times I just get overwhelmed with the almost infinite number of worldviews and interpretations out there. Your video has been a great blessing to me, and I can relate to it a lot. God bless.
This is very timely. As I struggle grappling with protestant, orthodox, and catholic theology, I feel like in frustration it could be easy to deconstruct. I'm looking forward to this. Thanks for putting out honest content and diving into the the hard stuff.
I hear you Will! It’s confusing working through these deep differences. Hope my story is useful.
Such an encouraging word, Gavin! I'm right in line with you. I've been engaged with and watching a ton on Deconstruction as well for better understanding. I've seen cynicism take it both ways. Deconstructing seems to be festering before a person even admits it or at least verbalilzes it. So I get a little skeptical when someone comes out and says they've started the process of deconstructing. Unfortunately the way they approach it from the start in most cases you can tell where it's going. Progressive Christianity may be a stop gap but it usually ends in total deconstruction from Christianity.
It would be intersting to really get to the root of why and what factors into it. Is it partially about personality? a bad experience? spiritual warfare? or an overreaction to things you just assumed and really didn't dig into yourself and now you have more "intelligence" to question things?
As Russell Moore said recently it's not because they don't believe the Church's teachings, it's that they don't believe the Church believes it's own teachings. Interesting take and insightful.
I do think deconstruction within boundaries is healthy and everyone needs to challenge what and why they believe...that has been my own experience in the couple times of crises in my life at 30 yrs old and just a couple years ago at 44 yrs old. Thankful it seems to push me deeper into a thirst and confidence in Christ.
Appreciate your insight and wisdom!
Finding people that understand me has been the hardest part.
Thank you so much for sharing. I too am struggling in this area as you did. I have totally lost faith in 'Western evangelical churchianity', I say churchianity because I am still a Christian and do not want to smear the truly faithful. Like you I have outgrown some erroneous ideas and beliefs I have had in the past, there is nothing wrong with this. Growth and maturity of thought is important for our development. I have accepted that it's ok not to know all the answers, I have let go.
Thanks for sharing your experience! May the Lord bless you.
You are brave to share this. Your parishioners are lucky!
I have never doubted the existence of God because I've been blessed by 3 brief but intense otherworldly experiences. I have struggled to find a faith community. I decided upon Roman Catholicism at age 65 after reading John Paul 2nd's "Theology of the Body", as well as some other things. Theresa of Avila was very influential.Who couldn't listen to her? " If this is how you treat your friends, Lord, no wonder you have so few"! It's hard, though. I've decided that trust in Jesus and trying to see myself and all of us through His love is the only way to live.
I can’t even.. I’m currently experiencing everything you have expressed on this post and like you, reaching out to God in prayer and remembering His goodness convinces me that this is true. Since I was a child, God’s revelation of His creation and my own self awareness convinced me of His existence and I always go back to that when doubts creep up
10:33 fantastic insight. I see this all the time reading intellectual history (history of thought in various disciplines)
I am a relatively new Christian (just a few months) and I was heavily questioning everything throughout the process. This video is eerily similar to what I have thought about and seen. First I was grappling with Genesis and how that fits in with our evidence of evolution. I also watched Rhett and Link's deconstruction video and wholeheartedly agree with your conservative view to the scripture and not settling into something like: if evolution is true then throw all of scripture out (rather than correcting my understanding of it). Then I came across Bart Ehrman and investigated this same issue of Jesus' claimed divinity. Personally, I have also always preferred arguments like the moral or cosmological argument to the intelligent design argument. I agree with the notion that a great way to deal with all of these issues is through prayer, and I have found this has helped me seek the truth as well (by God's grace). It is important to pray that God direct us toward the truth and deliver us from faulty teaching or understanding.
Just wanted to express my gratitude for you opening up and sharing the process you went through. It is amazing how familiar it felt to me.
thanks for sharing! God bless you and guide you!
I’ve had to deconstruct and reconstruct on my own. Nobody in my real life understands, and I am the most spiritually grounded person I know. My doubts could harm them, the spiritual confusion would scare them. The core of my faith has gotten stronger, but it’s hard being alone and it has made me a bit angry, bitter, and prideful. There’s no wisdom around me. Everyone is either too young and naive (no fault of their own), or an old person who cannot differentiate between their opinion and biblical truth. I think I have outgrown the churches I’m in, and I want to find stronger and more faithful churches whose pastors are thinking men.