Deconstruction, doubt and finding faith again - Lisa Gungor and Alisa Childers
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2019
- Lisa Gungor and Alisa Childers have both had successful careers in the Christian music industry but both went through profound seasons of doubt and deconstruction.
The process of ‘reconstruction’ took them to very different conclusions. They discuss their journeys with Justin and each other.
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Hi Justin i want to ask you this question who is Jesus for you?
It appears to me that Lisa is not sure what she believes. She said that believing in the resurrection is not necessarily for her. She was discounting what Paul wrote, this is an area that has been attacked by the deconstructionists. They say that much of what Paul wrote is not relevant in today’s culture. Alisa responded well to Lisa’s objections. Maybe they could carry on this discussion.
We should pray for Lisa, she recovers fully. the most penetrating questions asked Lisa she would answer not certain or I don't know, now she wrote a book about her experience if someone comes years later and say her experience was not certain how will she respond? Please ask her how certain is her experience that she wrote? I would love to hear her response
@Marriane Havisham. The original Bible is in Hebrew. A language that is very particular in gender. The statement refer either to a male or a female. No such thing as neutral. Unlike the English language, for instance, the word 'you' is not neutral. Male ' Atta' , female 'At' and the verb structure changes as it follow the subject. Objects have gender assignments as well. It is quite clever that God used the Hebrew language as a written testament knowing that this age of gender confussion will arise. In His written word, there is absolute clarity. Read the Hebrew if you really want to know the truth. I guess by your name Marianne, derived from Hebrew Miriam ( noble lady) Havi (the father ) sham. God bless.
When your faith is based only on what someone has taught you, you never had a personal relationship with God. When you have a personal relationship with God, he will confirm his present in your life. And he will let you know what he wants you to do. Many times you do need to deconstruct, meaning you have to come out of your organized religion and look deeper into the bible and seek God's holy spirit for help.
The host and Alisa understood the situation and restrained them selfs remarkably well not to crush, Lisa ideas/feelings. Well done !
I totally agree with your statement, bro.
And thats the trick, right? Many, many apologists have really, really good questions and really good answers, but its all for naught if they are unable to win a person over so that they might listen or open up. Its easy to speak the truth. It is HARD to speak the truth in love.
Yes, the juxtaposition of Lisa and Alisa is quite interesting.
Justin is an amazing host in every aspect.
Haha yeah they should have CRUSHED that fool right? That’s the Jesus way right?
I love the way Justin and Alisa approach Lisa’s ideas with kindness and respect. In doing so, it keeps the door open for more
conversation about The Resurrection.
Alisa has doubts because she is trying to understand life without a book telling her what to believe even though much of that book is ignored if it doesn't fit a certain interpretation....I expect you are right that Justin and Alisa will eventually be open to new ideas.
Alisa Childers revealed such overflowing grace and maturity in this. I applaud her.
Ese77
I have no idea why you're applauding somebody for simply doing what they're supposed to do.
Why do you think she'd do anything else?
Your comment makes no sense.
@@greglogan7706 your comment makes less sense. Is it wrong to applaud someone for doing the right thing? To stand up and eloquently defend your faith when most of society is trying to tear us down for it should absolutely be applauded
@@Addie3107
We are supposed to do the right thing- do you want people to applaud for you because you don't steal and you go to the grocery store?? Really?
Actually Society is trying to protect itself from all your oppression aggression violence, deceit and Corruption etc etc
@@greglogan7706 I’m surprised you even agree that Alisa was overflowing with grace and maturity in the first place honestly
@@Addie3107
That was someone else not me I'm the one who called them out for that silly comment
Ugh it’s hard to see someone who appears so lost.... to have been so close to the Truth and ......😩. My heart hurts just listening. Praying. I came from searching all different religions and new age and “your truth” “my truth” my whole life all the way to the Gospel and being born again in 2012(in my 30’s). I know how lost and empty it feels to be in that deception believing that you are actually wise and open minded and not attached you “dogma” to be open to all spirituality. It’s such a broken cistern with so many promises of enlightenment and peace, but no living water and just more sinking sand. What Joy, Peace, HOPE and all wisdom & mysteries we truly have in Christ. So grateful to be found in Christ, and praying more accept the gift of the Gospel and being born again. That they find that beautiful bridge 💗🙌🏻. And I know the Lord is able to pull people from the darkness. I am living proof
Thank you for sharing your wonderful testimony!!!
@@jamielyn9923 💗🙌🏻
Yes, amen. The Gospel is truth and this world is relentless in trying to poison that. I pray the Gungor's come out of this spell and recommit themselves to the one true God again.
He is a brilliant host. Fantastic facilitator.
Very true 👍
Alisa demonstrated some of the finest examples of proclaiming the gospel with clarity, kindness, and truth. A class act of integrity toward the word of God.
She's an idolator.
What was one of her finest examples?
I really appreciate the civil nature of this conversation.
I saw Alisa openly challenging Lisa with some absolutes, that are clearly absolutes, and found Lisa's response to be either unprepared to respond or respond with "that's so beautiful", all while denying the conclusions that challenge her world view.
All at the same time, finding peace in the ambiguity of her world view
Here's the thing, she wrote a book that openly discussed these challenges but she refuses to disparage the beliefs of another even in self-defense, a courtesy she was not extended.
In the end I saw two people bully a woman who has a love and a joy that they don't have and cannot comprehend. Lisa looked unprepared because she was clearly not anticipating the ambush.
If she wrote a book she should be the most prepared to defend her view. She was not ambushed. She knew where she was going and who she was going to face. I feel sad for her because you cant object facts with your feelings.
Shven Biermann if you know you’re on a podcast with Childers, you know apologetics will be involved, no?
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it. I am just coping and pasting don't take it to personal.
@@brambes7110 "Mysticism" is a form of sorcery and occultism... I don't see how the "others casting out demons" applies here... unless you are trying to invoke the "you do you" philosophy... which is true to an extent.. We are ALL individually accountable to God and we reap what we sow, and salvation is an INTENSELY PERSONAL journey.
Lisa is no longer invoking the authoritative name of Jesus.
With that being said, we are to call sin for what it is. Lisa's faith is clearly not in Christ and she confesses that. My point was in relation to the conversation. Alisa was going "full apologist" in asking direct questions on how to reconcile her world view and she dodged it all together with "that is beautiful" which to me is disrespectful to the conversation.
Faith/Trust in God is a struggle and it works itself through and these are 2 examples of those who were tested and how they came out... Alisa came out with strong faith in Jesus Christ, and Lisa did not (she turned to new age and mysticism - which is rooted in occultism). And both will live (or die) with the results (depending on how they make it in the end of their lives).
I too know first hand about how tragedy tries your faith and how it can strengthen or weaken faith.
Thanks for sharing
Alisa is very solid and kind in her responses to Lisa’s looseness to faith in Jesus. Yes Christianity hinges on the resurrection, you can’t treat it like a non essential side doctrine issue. Jesus’ teachings make that clear too.
@Kevin Cobb Thanks for asking. I'm not a professional theologian or anything, but I don't think you have to be to give a summarized version of Jesus' teachings. I'll attach some scripture references as well, though not exhaustively. Feel free to ask for more if you need it.
The simplest summary of Jesus' teachings is this - Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Without unpacking that, there is some ambiguity as to what that looks like, but thankfully Jesus elaborated on this in other places. (Deuteronomy 6:4, Matthew 22:37-40)
The God of Israel, known as Yahweh or Jehovah in some translations, is the only true God. He is one God but is three persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not multiple gods nor part of the creation like pagans believe- everything was made by him and for him and he is eternal without beginning or end. He alone is to be worshiped. (Matthew 28, John 14:26, John 10:30, Luke 4:8)
Mankind is in sinful rebellion against God and is in need of a Savior for forgiveness, which can only be accomplished by God Himself. This Savior will come through the line of King David (tribe of Judah), he has to suffer for the sins of the world and rise again in 3 days. Those who put their trust in him and accept this salvation will be forgiven and enjoy eternity with God and will inhabit the new earth at the resurrection and judgement of all mankind. All nations have access to this salvation, it is not limited to the people of Israel. Jesus is the only way to God. (John 14:6, Mark 8:31, Luke 3:3, Mark 14:53-65,
Those who become Jesus' followers are called to express their faith by repenting of their sins, being baptized, gathering together to study his teachings passed on by the apostles, living a God-honoring life, caring for the vulnerable, observing the Lord's Supper (communion/eucharist) and spreading that message of repentance and salvation to all people groups throughout the entire world. He warned his followers that they would be hated by many and that it could cost them their lives to live this kind of life, but the sacrifice would be worth it. ( Luke 22:14-30, Luke 3:8, 1st Corinthians 11, Matthew 28,
A key component of Jesus' teaching ministry was the concept of bringing forth the kingdom of God. This is a huge topic and not one I'll elaborate here, if I even could. But the essence is that God was ushering in a time of calling his people back to himself, teachings what it looks like for God's kingdom to be established in our lives and societies and worship, bringing righteousness and salvation to all nations, etc. (Matthew 5-6, Matthew 12:28).
Jesus affirmed the inspiration and authority of the Hebrews scriptures as God's word (known today as the Old Testament, though that may not be the best title for it). He cited it often, but there's sort of a contextual assumption in his teachings that his current listeners and future followers already knew these scriptures and/or would study them to gain a fuller picture of the story of God, his teachings to mankind, etc. This is important to note because there are many people throughout history who have tried to divorce Jesus from the Old Testament to various degrees in order to insert their own teachings. Lisa Gungor has definitely separated Jesus' teachings from both the Old and New Testaments in order to arrive at some of the positions she mentions in this video (though she is still super vague and non committal in how she expresses what her faith actually is at this point).
Certainly not a comprehensive statement on Jesus teachings, sort of off the cuff, but hopefully that helps a little. God bless. -Jesse
@@GuitarJesse7 , well done! That is a great "summary".
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it.
Guitar Jesse Thank You for this. It has helped me immensely.
@@cm7010 You are welcome. I forgot that I had left these comments, but glad it was helpful. Are you a follower of Jesus? Or just curious? Or trying to grow in your ability to articulate your faith to other people?
Alisa Childers : can you disciple me 🥺
alany lizardo I’m wondering the same thing. 😬
She has a great podcast online. Check it out.
Alisa's book is coming out in October, and her YT channel and blog are great!
Alany, get Alisa’s book, Another Gospel
**sigh** Gungor always had such beautiful music--some of the most creative in the Christian industry. Listening to this makes me so sad. She even sounds sad the entire hour of this. I also really appreciate what a strong apologetic Alisa is. Unfortunately, this discussion doesn't fully demonstrate much of what she's researched but still. Also totally listened to Zoegirl nonstop in middle school and I think I lowkey have to find their music again.
Actually I never heard any of their music that I know of.
Yes, she sounded so sad and really unsure of what she believes the whole time. I was troubled that she simply just said she didn't care about some issues. It is so sad that so many are coming to these conclusions. I guess I am just someone who needs certainty. I am thankful that God has given us a way to certainty about who He is. I pray that Lisa finds Him again in His truth and not her own.
Paul the apostle warned us as Christians to be on guard about people trying to undermine our faith.. This is occurring all around us. Peter the apostle also spoke to this issue.. plain and simple. The devil is a lier. Stand fast and stand firm in and with the truth
@@themreedpeople1615 She really sounded "lost"
I am sad for Lisa. I applaud Alissa’s grab on the truth and her gentleness in explaining it.
Alissa and truth is an oxymoron
Alisa simply loves her some evangelical tradition- making void the word of God
🥺😭💔God reveal your absolute truth . come Holy Spirit and encounter and awaken your creation that is asleep.
Amen in Jesus name
Alisa does such an amazing job of bring truth to this conversation! Also she addresses Lisa with such grace!! Lisa is an example of what happens when we base our faith on feelings and emotions and not objective truth! Thank you Alisa for stating truth and showing me that you can address people who hold to progressive Christianity with such grace and love!!
Alisa has doubts because she is trying to understand life without a book telling her what to believe even though much of that book is ignored if it doesn't fit a certain interpretation. Alisa holds strong to that interpretation because he gets so much validation that it is true. It does have strengths in it, and compassion, but she has more doubts to confront.
What is the objective truth in regards to slavery? Is it immoral and if so... where did you get that from?
@@Hieiman it existed and was immoral, simple
@@yahweh247 Sure... Now God in the Bible permitted slavery and condoned it... Nowhere in the Bible does he ever prohibit it or say it should be banned and neither does Jesus.
All the way up to the 19th century we had slavery and Conservative Christians argued, fought, and died for it... They also used the bible to justify it and they weren't wrong as the Bible permitted it.
Yes there were Christians that opposed slavery, but these were progressive Christians who were called radical abolitionists and would have to be considered progressive Christians by Alisa Childers and if she says her position is "historic" Christianity, then she would've been one of the conservatives in support of slavery then and has no grounds to say slavery is immoral today or then she is also a progressive Christian.
Her whole argument and position is self refuting.
@@Hieiman
Simply asking that question in even a remotely serious manner demonstrates such a manifest depravity
Wow, I pray that Lisa hears Alisa's confidence and wants it enough to follow her footsteps and actually study scripture and early church history.
I legit thought the host was Gordon Ramsey for a minute. I was waiting for him to go off on both of them.
This chicken is HERESY. You’re going to damn someone!!!
🤣🤣
ConstantSurprises Lol. That's exactly who I thought of but knew the voice was not his.
Bro this comment 😂
God Bless you, Lisa, Please keep studying, asking, seeking knocking, you will find The Truth.
I feel so sad for Lisa. She just seems so lost, having bought into the idea that nothing is knowable. You can see it when she's trying to provide an answer to really any question 😧
@Asha I agree with you. There are certain questions in life where it's perfectly ok to not have answers, and that answers will come as more information comes in, or as time goes by and you develop feelings one way or another- such as should I marry this person, should I have kids or take this career path.
It's even ok, when you're searching for truth and ultimate meaning in life - most people will go through some type of journey before they can finally say 'I believe this to be the truth'.
I was told about Jesus when I was about 20. I'd grown up in a family with more new age ideas about ultimate reality, if any at all. In a nutshell, I looked into Christianity, it made sense to me, but more than that, I can see looking back that it was the Holy Spirit that was giving me conviction that this really was truth.
Over the years, I had questions that would come up that would challenge my faith, but I would go looking for answers and my faith only ended up becoming stronger. I'm sure new questions will come up in the future! Also, I had powerful experiences with God which further reinforced what I believed to be true
There were other times when I would push what I knew to one side because it interfered with something I wanted to do that I knew God wouldn't be pleased with (sin), But then I also lost the peace I had - and I discovered I wanted that peace more than the sin. I'm sure I'll continue to face this challenge in the years to come as well.
Other people respond differently when confronted with hard questions and temptations. Some people give up their faith or give into sin or just say that nothing can be knowable.
You say yourself that God grounds you and continues to give you perspective when you're anxious, and that you seek comfort in His Word - which you must believe to be true. I don't see in Lisa, however, someone who has peace - just uncertainty and never really knowing, always questioning and never getting answers.
I believe, as Jesus says, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. That's why I am sad for Lisa and for other people who have bought into the lie that nothing can be knowable.
@Asha I've actually been going to charismatic churches and churches that believe the gifts of the Spirit are still available for believers pretty much all my life - . I even went to a multi denominational charismatic Bible college and saw John Wimber and some of the Vineyard team speak when they were in Australia! So I'm totally used to that style of worship 😉
I have to disagree with your exegesis on that verse though. I agree that a life of following Jesus changes us so that the more you give Him of your life the more you will be transformed into His likeness - which includes loving, forgiving etc
But to me it seems pretty clear that what Jesus meant was that no-one can be forgiven of their sin except through Jesus' giving up His life in our place. Would you agree with that, or do you see it differently?
No, I haven't read her book. I've been terrible when it comes to reading lately. I've got about 200 books on my Kindle as well as about the same number on my Audible account and I've probably only read about 10 percent of them haha
@Asha I'll have to watch the interview again. It's been a long time since I watched it and I only have a vague recollection of what she what she actually said now lol
I do agree with you though, that becoming a Christian is more than saying some words, the sinners prayer, or whatever you want to call it. You can surrender to God and make a decision to follow Him without using any words at all. It is a decision of the 'heart'.
What follows is "true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.” (Jn 4:23-24)
When I get some time, I'll try to watch the interview again and keep what you said in mind 😊
Alisa is so grounded and rooted in the word. Its really scary to hear some like Lsa gungor. She needs to go back and study the word and with prayer. The word of God is living and active.
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it. I am just coping and pasting don't take it to personal.
Yes the word is alive however imagine how your statement might come across to her or others like her. It suggests a failing on her part in regards to faith, which is personal, and gives a directive as if you are an authority on the matter. It’s dismissive and not at all encouraging. I don’t think you meant it that way but that how our words can come across to someone. I wonder if they’re is a way to word an encouraging statement that leaves the door to the faith open without judgment or directives? How would we want someone to handle and talk to us if we were in her shoes?
All the best!
Your comment is totally self-serving and simply a fix for your ego
@@brambes7110 Thank you!!
Couldn't of said it better!!
@@loretomazzola403 Folks can't seem to understand the difference between everything leads to and everything takes the form of. So what I would say everythings leads to Jesus. What would mean if Judaism, Islam the other religions and the pagan myths. Would (have been) developed to it's full potential. You would arrive at Jesus. Now would that mean you have to belief in Jesus as Christians do? That is a tough question and I would say no. So not everything has to take the form of Christianity in order to reach the top of the mountian. But everything does lead to Christianity and more particular Christ cause He is at the top of the mountain.
I would say if you are born in the West you can learn a lot form Alisa and you probably are a type of Alisa. But Alisa Christianity wouldn't survive if I doesn't work with Lisa's Christianity. And we have seen that. The mystics are the ground where Christ plants His seeds. The conservatives are the flowers that bloom out of it. Something like that.
Spirituality is wanting truth with out The Truth.
Lisa is extremely vague and confusing, throwing in new age mambo jumbo here and there, some christianese here and there, all which came to know conclusion. She redefined terms according to her feelings, and unfortunately clearly never had a firm foundation or a true saving faith
"Christianese". That made me laugh. I'm going to use that.
Maybe it's above your head; that's why you don't understand it. If your faith matures, you might come back and see it differently.
@Re L AMEN
I watched this because I was interested but as the debate went on my heart was aching for Lisa. If as a Christian you are still questioning that the only way to the Father is the son then i truly have to question if you are born again. This for me is a cornerstone fact. Otherwise Jesus life and death and resurrection was a complete waste of time. And we who do believe are just fooling ourselves. We need to call this what it is a lie from the pit of hell that is rising to fool even the elect. 2 Corinthians 4: 3-4
Marianne Havisham why is that a shock to you. One thing I know about people is that if you really sit down and truly contemplate your life honestly you know where you are in Christ. We can get so busy that God becomes a sideline he is coming to take the church out of church. And it still amazes me that you can ask someone who has been going to church for years and they struggle to tell you if they have been born again I have even heard a few say they are not sure.
I guess I misunderstood the program. I thought this was about 2 women that came back to faith from deconstruction. But I see one was left behind. I don't think she is any better off than she was. Seems to me she went from being an Atheist to being an agnostic. Being spiritual doesn't equate to salvation. Lisa needs to be on everyone's prayer list !
Sorry, but I'll be pray for Alisa. Her misunderstanding and dismissal of progressive Christianity is sad. She was very kind and patient in the dialog. Most of her videos show her on the attack. Will the church be forever divided??
Listening to Lisa G really made my heart sad because it’s not about “combating someone” but more of love. A love for the lost.
The LEGO analogy at 24:00 was great!
oh, i loves, LEGOS!
And it makes more sense then many of the "new agers'" point of view.
Man, this was so disappointing. I think as Christians we shouldn't just watch this, shake our heads, and walk away feeling smug in our own beliefs. I think we need to start taking responsibility for how our actions and attitudes have led to this. Folks like Lisa Gungor didn't just walk away from the Church, they were pushed away. We need to allow people to question and wrestle with their faith without feeling threatened by their questions. God is big enough to handle all of it!
Yes, but they aren't being pushed away by the church, they are pushing away due to the work of secular extremists in our culture. Most of those people found jobs in our school system or mass media.
These people are being stewed in an atmosphere of anti-Christianity while schools are turning them all into self consumed narcissists who have an inalienable right to comfort. Unsurprisingly this is consuming not just our churches, but most other institutions we all used to depend upon. Resist the temptation to beat up on the church and take a critical view of those who complain that the church hurt or disappointed them.
And take special notice of what things the "Deconstructionists" choose not to deconstruct in their lives.
40:37
I appreciate the analogy of the chasm and bridge that Alisa provides here, in regards to the necessity and exclusivity of Christ. Unfortunately, for many postmodern thinkers (like Lisa), there is no chasm between humanity and the divine. God is everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
Ryan Ballantyne yes exactly.....it seems obvious to me. I thought Lisa was amazingly self controlled to not enter into the debate. She truly has no agenda and I love that
Why do you think there is a chasm between humanity and the divine?
That is what the Hebrews believed as well. Why do you think that they didn't make statues or images. There is a psalm that talks about the glory of God revealed in the creation. God is everything what makes Him nothing at the same time. It is not something you can pinn down. God is everywhere but in a reflection, and really the best thing you can say, I would argue, to describe God in the most truest way form Gods perpective is. Everything and nothing or I don't know look around you.
@@iwasjustintrance Hi Justin! Sorry that no one has been able to answer your questions so far, I’ve seen your really good questions on a lot of comments here.
One of the first steps to realizing that there is a divide between myself and God is realizing how broken I truly am. I started realizing how prone I am to deceive others, to look out for myself only, to seek to gain attention and wealth, to lie to that end, to get irritated at others, to be stingy, etc. I noticed all of these things apart from the church by the way. I thought I was going crazy because no one wanted to talk about it (all I heard was about how everyone is “good enough”). The only people that actually talked openly and honestly, but surprisingly still hopefully(!) about human depravity were Christians. I wanted to know why that was.
In the Bible (and in human conception, generally) God is perfect, meaning completely and utterly blameless, so much so that any sin or brokenness cannot stand in his light. Just like something nice and well-made usually sits in a special shelf where it can’t get dirty or broken, God is so holy that He cannot be near sin.
Therefore, because my nature is fundamentally broken, and God is holy, there is a chasm between me and God.
Good news is, it doesn’t have to stay that way!! God wanted to commune with his creation, but he is a just God, so he requires a perfect sacrifice. The only perfect being is God Himself, so he sent His son Jesus to sacrifice himself to make a way between God and man. Feel free to keep those questions coming!
@@mcgheebentle1958 Wonderful and clear explanation. The more I grow in my faith the more I realize how despicable I am and how much I need a savior!
Wow, so Lisa gungor is floating around out there with her feet planted firmly in mid air.
Vidya What’s nonsensical about resurrection? It seems to me that given the astounding features and realities of the world we know are actual, e.g. the existence of this mind-bogglingly beautiful and complex universe, caterpillar to butterfly metamorphoses, and so on, it’s not difficult at all to believe there might be such a thing as resurrection. Why would that be disallowed? How could you with your profoundly limited knowledge (in this you’re no different than the rest of us) assert resurrection is nonsense? Peace to you.
Vidya It’s hilarious bc your world view shouldn’t have issues with such tales 😂
Jeffry Blair He’s a troll who did his job and got out.
sdm101869 unfortunately for her if she doesn’t repent her end will be horrible.
@Vidya You seem to know everything when you say that we don't have evidence to believe in "that nonsense".
Oh no. It’s heartbreaking to listen to Lisa 🙈 However, this challenges me to know more about God and learn apologetics. Let us continue to pray for them, that God will open their hearts and minds, and to continue to guide those who seek Him 🙏
Did God open your heart and mind?
What does this mean?…what changed with you?
Lol and the award for missing the point goes to…
I just got dumber and smarter at the same time watching this. Guess i followed the suit of the dialogue.
Goodness gracious. Gungor lost her faith because she thinks with her emotions and not logic.
It's like she's never read the new testament and knows nothing about basic Christian theology.
zymbo
Atheists love logic.
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it.
Bram Bes That’s true, hopefully her faith is in Jesus and not an imaginary god of her own making.
Marianne Havisham That is true. The bible talks about the outward fruit of a true believer in Christ, and it seems she is confused about what she believes. Just recently on a podcast with her and an apologist, she was discussing her beliefs, and it was very new age, in other words, not the biblical Christ.
For example, she said in the podcast she believes the Christian God is a mother. So I don’t say this to be rude at all, I say this in the hopes that her faith be put in the biblical saviour.
@@brambes7110 nobody can understand her because she's saying nothing but nonsensical things. Nobody understands her because she doesn't even understand herself. She's running flat out away from truth, she needs to be tripped.
I’m a “deconstructed” believer, working his way back now and through my experiences, thus far, I’m observing this Lisa girl, as someone who still hasn’t fully discovered what she believes and has some more work to do. I also think her loyalty and devotion to her husband is pulling her from her own journey and it’s creating incredible conflict. I know this is a year old but hope this girl can sort it out because, God knows (yes ironic) how challenging and uneasy sorting this out can be alone, much more when you’re devoted to someone you love.
She has not .... yet. Keep praying for Lisa
I sensed the same thing, her devotion to her husband, may be her reluctance to caring more about searching for answers. Only God knows her heart and her "heart" seems tender.
So true..
I didn't want to say it and I'm still struggling with it but my first reaction was, "She needs to leave her husband" 😬😔
@@DavidMccallister65 That would depend. Is an imaginary god more important than a real husband?
I'm a believer A CHRISTIAN
Alisa Childers is inspirational. Do you see that parts don't fit and you throw everything away or do you go back, look at manual and try to figure out where the disconnect started. I love that. Thanks
Thanks for the great discussion, Unbelievable! Lovin' it so far and almost to the end! YEET YEET!
you giddy shit, yea & aems
To sum up Gungor's main points: "I don't know..."
but brand it and sell it
@Marianne Havisham The creeds of the Christian faith are built on the things we "know" - for example, the Apostles Creed states:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of the saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
These are the things we "know" as a follower of Jesus Christ and are critical to our faith in Him. Without these beliefs, we are not "Christians."
@Marianne Havisham Here is the story of Thomas from the Scripture:
24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.” 26 Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” 28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.
29 Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.” (John 20:24-29 NLT)
Notice that Thomas doubted the testimony of the other disciples but when Jesus appeared to him in person he exclaimed "My Lord and my God!" At that point he KNEW who Jesus was and is. He went from doubt to belief, and gave his life spreading that belief to others around the world. If he was still a "doubter" he would never have given his life for it.
Regarding your comment that Jesus became fully human when he experienced doubt on the cross - I have never heard that statement before. Can you expound on it?
@@fischerman1665 PERIOD! End of story. I spent a couple of years dating a man who spoke these words with me in church. Thought HE *meant* it too. Alas, he actually is a universalist, dabbling in new age ideologies, I eventually realized, and I have felt profoundly sad about that. I know we are certainly unequally yoked. We aren't together anymore, and ultimately this divergence was WHY we were not meshing. I am so disappointed because I thought we agreed about what it meant to be a Christian, to have a personal relationship with God.
This has been so painful, and yet, so enlightening for me, and has drawn me closer to God and my faith....cuz i had fallen away from Him... but I am so thankful for this blatant chasm because it has been pivotal in my rededication with God and I know I will not waver in my commitment to God going forward. I will fall, because I am human, but I Know I will not allow myself to wander away to this extent again
People like Lisa are one step away from knowing God and Jesus as they really are. Humble enough to say they "don't know" but not quite enough to admit they need saving. Humility thay drives you, forces you to discover what faith is, and ask yourself where you must put it.
Been there, done that...I am so happy now to be close and to seek His face by reading His HOLY BIBLE!!!!!
I thank God I found Alisa Childers ! Please keep speaking the truth, you're helping a lot of us in these dark times. God bless you for being God's instrument in making His truth known ❤️🙏
Just came across Alisa a few days ago. Love herr.. Yes, may she continue to speak God's truth🙏🏾🙏🏾
Lisa's story makes me genuinely sad
Phillip Andrews
Why? She’s seems genuinely content with her decision. At that point, yours doesn’t matter.
Agreed
@Tom Bladecki :: how can anyone fully understand God & His teachings with a KJV Bible that took 1,500 years to write?! 🗽🗝💜🌱💐🌴😇💃👙💄☀🎆🎋🎐🐉🐠 why does God need to be a mystery?
Heavens Oceans42 I have walked with God since I was 16 I am now 47. I have slipped and fell more times than I can count and I have said the wrong thing and done the wrong thing plenty of times. I have questioned and I have debated. But I always go back to his word and when I got saved. As I go on in my walk I realise that God is not wanting perfection he is just asking that I trust yes holiness needed to take place in me but if I submit to God a miracle happens he changes me. God reveals himself to me more and more in that he blows my mind. The bible declares that the Holy Spirit is a teacher and a guide and there have been times that I have read a scripture and I don’t fully understand it’s meaning so I pray on it. I will be doing something really mundane and God will give be clarity about or I will just be reading my bible. Yes there is a mystery to God and we may not know everything this side of heaven. But he is God not man there is no way that we will be able to fully understand or wrap our minds this awesome God that created the world just from speaking
Heavens Oceans42 The fact that He isn’t fully understandable is further proof that He’s not a man made concoction. The general message in the Bible is pretty simple though: we are all sinners in need of a savior and He’s coming, He came in the form of a man and yet still God, He died, was buried, and was resurrected and therefore beat death, hell, and the grave and has ascended back into heaven. Now if we believe in Him and love God and love others are sins will be forgiven and we too can beat death, hell, and the grave and one day He’s coming back for those that have made that choice. The whole Bible is about Jesus! He’s coming...He’s here...He’s coming back!
Ive been to lots of Churches who disproportionally spend too much time in music and worship but so lacking in doctrine. Lots of people got stuck in these churches that they thought they got it all right but were actually ignorant of the scriptures. Whats weird is that i hear lots of People claims to be a follower of Christ and yet accept Abortion as if nothing is wrong with it. I thank God used the internet to allow me to hear the True Preachers of the Gospel that caused me to think and evaluate my faith in Christ.
God in the Bible doesn't prohibit abortion... Nothing about the Bible is anti-abortion... In fact the God in the Bible literally supports abortion in multiple instances.
As someone who is going through deconstruction/reconstruction on my faith journey, I truly appreciate this conversation. I'm grateful as well to the host Justin Brierley for giving context and thoughtful questions, and especially for mentioning Rachel Held Evans, Jennifer Hatmaker and Sarah Bessey, as I'm leaning more towards the guest Lisa Gungor's side of deconstruction/reconstruction. Looking forward reading the work of these authors. This podcast has been such a wellspring of balanced knowledge and nuanced insight for me. Thank you. :)
It's like catching a greased pig, trying to actually have a discussion with Ms. Gungor, in which an actual disagreement can be established. At all points she both agrees and disagrees with Ms. Childers, having her cake and eating it, too.
Exactly
"Mmm... that was beautiful...
But I disagree.... but also agree....
But maybe not.....
I'm not sure....."
THE DEVIL IS A LIAR
THE DEVIL IS THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION
Good conversation. I can see now why I can't connect with Gungor recent albums anymore, they went down a path I can't follow. Hope they find their way back.
Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. Thank you Alisa for emphasizing the centrality of the gospel. and I loved Rick Stewart's comment about the "I Am"
That was painful and sad to see someone so confused and deluded. Presenter and Alisa did far better than I could ever do not to get frustrated with the nonsense that came out of Lisa’s mouth.
I felt physical pain in my chest at about 95% of what Lisa had to say
Thanks for sharing this. I am feeling that chest pain now, as well, as I come near to the end of this video. We must definitely pray for Lisa and for people like her because they are indeed in a dangerous place.
@@amydelafuente9423 Praise be to JESUS CHRIST. We pray, in the Mighty name of JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH, to intervene in the life of Lisa, Lord JESUS, to give her spiritual wisdom and clarity that can only come from you , JESUS.
I REBUKE satan and his demons, in the MIGHTY NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, AMEN!
She doesn’t seem to have much knowledge of Christianity, and kind of rambles in a New Age stream of consciousness. She hasn’t thought deeply about the theological implications of her claims. She’s kind of out of her league here. It’s pretty cringe.
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it. I am just coping and pasting don't take it to personal.
Andrew - that is your burning bushes and telling you that Lisa is speaking the truth and Alisa Childers is simply a phony Evangelical lover of tradition and of her own self-serving ego
I will be praying for Lisa G.
Awesome conversation. I can relate to both of them for sure. Thank you for a civil conversation and Justin great job
Thank You, Alisa, I have gone through great church crises. Still wounded, need assurances. Which I think is in God's will as well, {For us to ask, seek, knock]. I will follow you, in social media and I'm sure what you have learned will help me.
Wow this makes me so sad. It's like Lisa is snatching at butterflies, coming up empty but the butterflies are so beautiful! This is the great deception of our time, that we can cast off scripture, search for truth within, and determine whatever seems or feels right. It's like the serpent in the garden all over again. As Alisa says, the point of deconstruction is to reconstruct to something true. I have a daughter who had a college professor (at a Christian University) who helped the class deconstruct their faith (since their parent's faith was no doubt wrong) but I've yet to see her reconstruct it. And she won't talk about it. The amount of deception in our culture is staggering. But Jesus told us there would be a great falling away, apostasy, in the end times. We are seeing it. I am coming to really appreciate Alisa's teaching on progressive Christianity and it led me to a great book on it. And...I think I still have an old Zoe Girl CD somewhere!
Confusion vs. clarity; Self-deification vs. Acknowledgement of God outside of self; Convenience taking whatever I feel works for me or the parts I like vs. Truth no matter how hard and inconvenient it may be, independent of feelings; Word play vs. Argumentation and evidence; Intellectual laziness regarding Big questions vs. Hard work dealing with Big questions; Disregard for evidence vs. Facing and accepting evidence; 'Beautiful' as a feel good empty word vs. 'Beautiful' as an adjective for Truth; Feelings vs. Conviction; Indifference regarding resurrection vs. Acknowledgement of the resurrection as THE crucial point, the whole point of a Christian faith; Pride (not needing a Savior; claiming being fairer than God) vs. Humility to recognize the need of a Savior, God's view on self, etc, etc. It would be more honest to just say "I don't agree with God's view of things, I think mine is better, and especially fairer. But there are some good things I still like from His claims, like this idea of 'love' and belonging together as creatures..."
We all have faith crisis and face lots of disappointments from life, people and institutions. However, we must be honest to acknowledge our own limitations as humans. We can't possibly be God, or we would be a very confusing, disappointing one!
Agreed!
👏💗👏😏 well said. I've learnt
I’m so thankful for this comment!!
Said PERFECTLY, thank you!! I have been struggling to articulate that divergence to someone in my life
When you write your book, I'll buy it. My mind is slightly blown by how well you summarized what I just watched. You have a gift.
Thanks a lot of Lisa and Elisha of your great journey of the faith.
Appreciate the conversation. Lisa seems to be scattered on what she believes/thinks somewhat contradicting herself. I hope she will continue pursuing the truth
Beautiful conversation.....well done to all three .....so helpful and enlightening.
At minute 1:02:45 Lisa finally explains how her realization/explanation of Alisa's question of how she came up with this notion of us all being connected was from "the cosmos source, divine mother of God within and then that...". Now, first off I come to think that she had to really dig in deep to find this notion within her due to her body language and hesitation, which is typically not a good indicator - but secondly, what I mostly got from this (which I think we all should) is that if something isn't biblical and we can't at the least put our finger on the truth with something other than something that's "within us", it's most likely not from the Lord and we definitely shouldn't change our paradigm and even worse persuade others into it. Also, I love how much kindness and respect Alisa and the host showed her in the midst of all this. God bless this podcast and its listeners.
I respect Lisa Gungor so much and have enjoyed hearing her on other platforms where her worldview is more supported, such as Liturgists, Loving This, Out Of Line with Caroline Lee, etc.
Oh my gosh... Michael and Lisa used to lead praise and worship in our church... I am so shocked to hear her talk this way. It's actually broken my heart to see where they have gone. I remember one time looking at Lisa while she was singing... and the feeling that came over me was of so much love... not my love but God's love for her, His little precious girl. I've never forgotten that. I pray one day she is able to get back to where (I thought) she was and may Jesus be REAL to her again... 💕
I'm proud of you Alisa, you don't suppress the question in John 14:6
I came from a “progressive church” and I think part of the reason is they intentionally prey on people who have been hurt by the church. Our church would constantly put down the “traditional” biblical evangelical church by making blanket statements about “the church hurting you.” It plays on people’s insecurity and hurt and draws them in to this club where they belong.
Well said.
Yes, no leaven, no duplicity.
Not about me, about His reality.
I should add... many times, people haven’t actually been “hurt by the church.” I liked to think I was hurt by the church, but I was living in sin and wanted no accountability to the Lord or anyone else. Conviction? What’s that? Our “church” mocked the idea. How nice for the flesh to be able to find a “church” that allowed me to live in sin without “judging” me.
Totally agree, and people who tend toward intellectualism
@
Kieran Morgan - mind if i ask the name n location of that progressive church?
It is not about feelings.............It is about faith.
“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see” Hebrews 11:1...
Great job being an exemplary follower of Jesus Alisa. Very effective questions, but also very gracious. Just as we should be as followers of Christ.
Most of the bits with Lisa were pretty excruciating to listen to.
The debate was characteristically for Premier very amenable but the reality of her views are pretty tragic. Her version of 'Christianity' is so far departed from the truth that it essentially isn't Christianity. It's universalist secular spirituality and self-worship with a bit of cultural Christianity sprinkled on for good measure. 'Whatever makes you happy'. I pray that she re-finds solid ground.
Props to Justin for his measured approach. Likewise for Alisa. I couldn't have done it. There were times where I would have been like 'What on earth are you talking about??!'
This is the postmodern church, in a nutshell.
You don't get to say what Christianity is and isn't. And I pray that your faith matures beyond the self-righteous outlook you show here. She in no sense said 'whatever makes you happy'...
Star Shape nobody says what Christianity is only the Bible.
"Excruciating" describes Lisa's comments perfectly. Thank you!
@@starshape7529 The bible decides what Christianity looks like. Lisa's views are nothing like the Bible - logically Lisa is not part of Christianity no matter how much she claims to be.
Lisa Gungor was not ready for this discussion. She's still lost and I'll pray for her.
I'm watching this and am amazed how in the air Lisa is. And like a lot of commenters, am also amazed at how well Alisa and the host handled it.
How do you have so many ideas, but so little actual clarity?? I'm here waiting to hear some kind of reasoning from Lisa, and just never get it. I was incredibly frustrated. BUT, that's why you can't get into serious debates on a logical level with someone like this. I half expect her to hear my responses and say "You know what I find that really beautiful you don't agree with me.. That's what this journey is about.. Finding yourself from the other, being where there never has been, or where there isn't. It's just beautiful".
!!!!!!!!
All beautiful
Lisa needs to pray before she reads the word of God. The cosmos and all that stuff she mentioned at the end was kinda strange.
I feel like I'm at Woodstock, listening to some of this.
I'm so confused by folks who say they are Christian but also say they don't believe the core tenants of the religion (Jesus is the unique Son of God, that He was crucified and resurrected three days later, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the Trinity, etc.). How does that work? And I'm with Alisa: why would you even desire to call yourself a Christian if you don't believe those things?
Yes, I don't understand that
@Mountaindew Interesting how you assume you know what I was told. I've questioned, rejected, assumed, and researched as much as I can imagine you have and continue to come back to the Truth. I pray you do the same and reach the same conclusion yourself.
I think the word you're looking for is "tenet" (a belief someone holds to as true), not "tenant" (someone who rents a property).
@@markbruce7773 ...thanks for your time, Mark
Because they still believe they are... Just like mormons think they are christians.
Well done! Such a respectful conversation and loved the comment on Jesus’ resurrection. The way you put it made me even more sure of Christianity. So, thank you!
You noticed that too🤔
Fantastic dialogue - open, challenging, respectful! Last 10 minutes, Alisa's explanations hit the key points. As a Catholic, I'd like to emphasize 3 key points she made. 1) Church scandals for all denominations are a serious problem...at the human level. But the ever-present sin of mankind doesn't disprove the teachings and call of Christ. 2) Doubt is a component of faith. So many of the Catholic saints were challenged with doubts..."the dark night of the soul." 3) And a faithful reading of the Bible emphasizes a God-given truth that we must seek and accept. In Lisa's final explanations, she described her "personal truth." She says she is relying on science, but science isn't connected with her explanation. It sounds like her feelings define her faith as separate from the Biblical testimonies of the men who spent 3 years following Christ. As Alisa kindly shares, if Christ is the Truth, the Way, and the Light, then we can't find him by checking our feelings. If Christ is the Truth, then we must trust him enough to shape our life and feelings according to Christ. Thanks to the three of you for bravely addressing the hard challenges of faith!
"Do I really want the answer?" Alisa. Good question. I would also ask: "Do I want this to be truth?"
The other problems with Gungor’s views: she is forming her eternal beliefs based on the actions of sinful human beings, and then blaming the church for an individual’s sinful actions. She has all the buzzwords of the new age radical feminist movement, anger at the patriarchy, abuse, God is a cosmic bully. She doesn’t blame the person who was the abuser, she blames the church. While the church can always do better, you don’t blame the whole for the actions of the one.
And then you remembered the church is made up of sinful individuals.
This Lisa lady didn’t know that Jesus’ use of the word I AM was YHWH in Hebrew. The name of God. The high priest wanted to kill Jesus after saying it. Her knowledge of apologetics is poor, because many people will say where did Jesus claim to be God. I AM the bread of life. I AM the living water. I AM the light of the world. I AM the way, the truth and the life. Every time Jesus used I AM he was saying he was God. The Jews avoided using that word. Just like today Jews will write G-d to avoid using God’s name in vain.
For her just to say Jesus was just saying he was himself is very poor understanding. There was no mystery. He claimed to be divine.
BEST REPLY YET
and Jesus said, " I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26. Lisa does not love the Biblical Jesus, because she doesn't believe in the resurrection.
I would be truly astounded if Lisa did not know or understand traditional reading and interpretation and the significance of the I AM verses, given this is SUCH a basic and yet indescribably important detail, BUT I think the point is that _even though_ she would have been well aware of this understanding, she _choose_ to ignore it and instead impose her own meaning onto the text, and it is these, subjective, self-imposed self-centred and self-drawn meanings that take priority for her and others like her.
Right? The Jews wouldn’t have wanted to stone Him for saying He is just himself. They tried to stone Him because He was making Himself out to be God!
Jesus is more than enough!
I could have watched this video with no sound and be able to tell that Lisa was a lost soul. is so sad that her condition is written on her face.
Thank you, Justin ... well coordinated between the two (A)Lisa's! I thought you were extremely sensitive in a strong way to allow open and honest dialogue between the two ladies. _Just for the interest of it, I'm an "historical" Christian and thus completely in Alisa's camp. You have to have a foundation otherwise all is nebulous! As the scripture describes as tossed to and from by every wind of doctrine ... Ephesians __4:14_
Lisa's version of "Christianity" says "we are all god". Christ's claim is we are created in the image of God, and for that reason, humans are valued by God, and should be valued by others. I feel that so many people are trying to elevate humans to the position of God, when that narrative makes no sense. The sum of all human knowledge doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the vastness of creation. It is important for us to all understand that we answer to something greater than ourselves, and we should always remember that. That is humbling, and something that our physical selves can often have a hard time coming to terms with. Just as Micah 6:8 says "He has shown you, O Mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
Lisa describing the Trinity was scary, her mentioning mystical experiences... Dear God open her eyes.
I'm so scared to think of how many others who are so deceived:(
Stay strong in the Truth Alisa, please!
Trinity - meaning Jesus is God - is totally unacceptable to Jews a NDE early Christian believers but was acceptable to the Greek / Roman church. It is either right or wrong. ‘Christian’s’ believe in the trinity because that took over early Christianity and replaced it with this (false) Roman church. So deconstruction means waking up to the fact that a false church took over.
When Lisa was answering. It’s was so cringing 😔 . . . So sad I hope she finds her way back to Jesus ✨ god bless her
Lisa, love and peace man....the 70s are calling
I love the patience of you two (the Christians). It’s very sad listening to gunga. She makes no sense. This is where churche pastors need to be more bold educated. Or you end up with this
Exactly. I’m right there with you. I think it’s so important for pastors to educate their congregation very well.
I also think it's time churches start teaching apologetics to their congregation. It should start in sunday school and they should have classes for the congregation that wants to attend. Pastors have let their sheep down by not protecting them in various ways from the wolves. Pretty much not one Christian I know can defend their faith in any logical way nowadays.
Is so scary that she says she believes in Jesus and is a Christian. She is definitely new age and it can lead people astray🤦🏻♀️
Cold Case Christianity by J Wallace is an amazing book which would be helpful to those questioning the validity of the Bible. Lisa and Michael were my worship leaders in Michigan for several years. We no longer attend that church for various reasons. My heart aches for this couple and I pray for them. Lisa Gunger seems confused on how she came to her conclusions. We better know WHY we believe what we believe as our eternity depends on it..
So why do you think Christianity is true?
Yes, Cold Case Christianity by W. Wallace has great explanation.
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it. I am just coping and pasting don't take it to personal.
@@brambes7110 while I appreciate your heart in the matter, I do not believe that is what Jesus meant.
You said your new to reading the Bible correct? I believe the reason others are cautious is what Jesus says about Who He is, and what He expects for those who follow Him.
Jesus never changes..how many characteristics can I change about a person before they are no longer recognizable? Now take that same logic and apply it to tbe Omnipotent Omnipresent..All powerful never changing God. He says He is the way and the Truth and the Life. He says we are to follow Him. How do we follow Him by obeying His commands and living as He lived. He says we are to love Him and how do we love Him by obeying His commands and having a godly reverential fear of Him. His character is not open for private interpretation and neither is scripture. Paul, instructed by the Holy Spirit, even warns us not to receive another Jesus another gospel and another spirit. These issues are not simply doctrinal issues they are issues of misrepresenting Christs character to others as well as possibly falling into deception ourselves. This is not a light matter and though she says she has doubts...these are not doubts as she has adopted a completely different theology..and has received a completely different gospel to the point where she refers to God as she. That is not the same God of the Bible..and that God can save noone. That's why this is so dangerous because she is also reaching others and preaching her personal gospel which is her choice, but the danger is when someone slaps the name Christian to their beliefs that are contrary to Christ! Christian means Christ follower. If your teaching another gospel that is contrary to the true gospel to the the public all the while claiming Christianity; we are accountable to challenge those beliefs in love and also correct the person teaching error in Christs name. He said teachers will have a harsher judgement.
So doubts are one thing but that is misleading to call her beliefs doubts as she has adopted an entirely different belief system that is new age and not christian at all.
, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”
But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for (BD)he who is not against [h]us is on [i]our side.”
This person who was casting out demons was a follower of Christ as God gave them the authority to do so. They were not teaching a different gospel.
That's sad and fear based. That whether God wants people in heaven, or not, depends on what they believe.
I’m sad for Lisa. She seems like she has no idea what she’s saying and it appears that her mind is a mess even though the says she’s ok now. Having a megachurch leadership position thrust on her and Michael and then God not behaving like she thinks He should, disregarding the Old Testament narrative because it doesn’t fit her 21st century sensitivities. She speaks as if her mind is unhinged.
That's interesting - how would you regard the Old Testament narrative in the 21st century?
@@starshape7529 the old testament reveals jesus christ! Jesus said that the scriptures speak of him. And when jesus was on earth the only scriptures that existed was the old testament!
@Daniel, agreed. It's difficult to listen to her. She doesn't seem to be able to speak with complete coherent thoughts, nor to be able to complete a thought. She sounds very confused, almost as if she is on something.
It is very sad.
@@partoftheway4235 That wasn't an answer to the question.
@@karinerness4165 I’ll answer for him though he may feel different the Old Testament was made for the nation of Israel (those who had it ) ofc they would be in a different culture and over all environment we should look at it the way they would have because 1st century Jews won’t understand the feelings and situations of 21 century black Americans and same for them (I used 1st century because the ot was made over long periods of times separate books Uk)
Sad for Lisa. As a friend of mine says,, "The bottom line is unless you have genuinely encountered the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll always be in danger of falling away from the faith. But if Jesus Christ gets into your pores, it's impossible to scrub him out."
Agreed. I've been through seasons of doubt, I've questioned if God was even real, but in that I've always been lead back to God. I can't get rid of God, He's ingrained in the deepest part of my heart and bones.
Yep indoctrination is very powerful and hard to overcome... The earlier it gets in... The harder it is.
@@Hieiman you missed the point entirely, but that can happen when you haven't learned to think for yourself. Your tired, worn out statement is the perfect example of one who has been thoroughly indoctrinated.
Lisa, You are so dear and my heart is with you. I loved your music growing up, you are talented and create beauty with your music. I don't know where you are at today, as it's been more than a year since this has come out, but I want you to know I'm praying for you. The One True God, the Father, Yahweh, is calling you back to Him. He's calling you to taste and see that He is Good, and He is God. He sees you, and knows you, more intimately than you know yourself. Let Him justify you, but don't stop there, be sanctified too!
this is what happens when the world infiltrates the church. in every generation it's something different. now it's "political correctness" , not calling sin what it is and denying biblical truth over feelings and offensive words. but Jesus was offensive to the religious culture at the time because they thought their traditions and works could save them , they denied Him and called Him a blasphemer , said he casted out satan with satan. and He rose from the dead sealing our faith. and so He even warns us in the gospels and the apostles in the epistles, that no other gospel shall be preached. when people pick and choose verses, and don't take the full counsel of God ; you get this progressive christianity
How are you different than the religious culture that Jesus came to expose?
The level of arrogance that I hear and self-serving self-righteousness that I hear from you demonstrate so you're a perfect Pharisee
Ok. Did anyone else hear Lisa say, "I don't trust the evidence "?
Yes. I noticed that too.
That was Lisa’s way of saying she rejects the Truth found in Scripture. She doesn’t want to be reminded of her sin and that’s why she’s resigned to be tentative in her beliefs. God allows all to know the truth and allowing the truth to set you free requires acknowledgment and repentance of your sin and accepting that Jesus’s death on the cross and resurrection from the grave is sufficient to permanently redeem you from sin.
Lisa’s thoughts were all over the place. It was really hard to follow what she was saying.
So typical of the new age religion from what I’ve seen. Lisa said it herself, there is no certainty so everything and anything is real and true. We are all gods.
I didn’t understand a thing she said. She seems So unsure of her new found truth.
I could tell Lisa was improvising answers as she was speaking.
Marianne, I’m anything but that. You don’t have to be telepathic to know that Lisa was not prepared to provide coherent answers to very basic questions on the Christian faith. Lisa was non-articulate in what she was saying, because she wasn’t drawing her answers from Scripture; she was responding with her own philosophy of Christianity, independent from Scripture. I listened to the podcast twice from start to finish and her plea of ignorance on the meaning of John 16:4 is a pretty serious miss, because this is one of several examples in which she doesn’t trust the authority of Scripture. She trusts in her own rendition of Scripture and sees Jesus as just one of many religions that all lead to the same well and that’s a false faith. Only Jesus leads to the well of forgiveness and redemption, because he secured that salvation through His work at the cross and His resurrection on the 3rd Day.
Marianne Havisham Stop trying to incite an argument, you troll. The woman clearly made no sense.
I'm grateful for this video!! No one is perfect. I don't fully understand God or Jesus.
Read the bible,prove it is wrong or right..dont be a lukewarm.
This is why it's so important to get answers to prayer. Church can screw you up, and doctrine can dry you up. Hear his voice. We don't serve a mute Idol.
well doesn't 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 talk about the "falling away" which is apostasy-forsaking their faith in Christ, by deception in the last days? This is what is happening with Lisa and others like her. Love what Alisa said, Christianity isn't true without Christ's resurrection.
It’s amazing how, when confronted, people can see the incoherence of their beliefs. I pray Lisa can see how her worldview is inconsistent with reality.
Soy Allergies definitely! I just finished watching Alisa Childer’s podcast with Beckett Cook who compared unwillingness of leaving a life of homosexuality to the rich young ruler being unwilling to leave his riches. He said he is daily thankful to have Christ instead of his former life.
Okay I was not going to rant but after reading the comments, I will. Paul van der Klay, a pastor with a youtube channel, had this to say about Jordan Peterson and how he sees him. He pulled up the Bible verse (and sorry but I don't know this part of the Bible that well YET) but some of Jesus disciples come up to him and start talking about a person how is casting out demons in His name but he isn't following Christ in the flesh, something like that. They ask Him should we tell that person to stop and basicly call him out. Jesus says no because everything that is done in His name that is good will be given back to the person. And he continues with saying that someone who is strong in faith but trips someone who is weak is truly in a wrong space. So if you think that Lisa is weak in faith, which doesn't really seems like she, if anything she is probably acting in faith more than many of us. Don't trip her.
Lisa is a mystic very little people can understand a mystic. I think she is just different nothing is sad or wrong about that. I respect a person who is truly wrestling with God. What Israel means by the way. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and if you don't. Don't make claims like' it seems that'. No just no.
And I sorry if this gonna hit you in a painful spot but. He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, but He also said Heaven is a narrow gate, and it is hard to pass through and many wil not find it. I am just coping and pasting don't take it to personal.
Bram Bes if she does not affirm the resurrection of Christ, then she is not in the true faith of the Bible.
1 Corinthians 15:14 - "and if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
And verse 17 - "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins"
She may be a mystic, but she is not a Christian if you compare her words with scripture.
There is a lot in the Bible about warning people of false teachers or prophets and much of it would apply to Lisa's false beliefs.
Bram Bes Jordan Peterson is also not a Christian and he does not claim to be. Which is why his beliefs have completely failed him in his really hard trials he is walking through. Praying that these people can come to know Christ, in which we have incredible hope and joy inexpressible!
@Soy Allergies I think you need to read it, it is Mark 9:38-50. 'Those who are with us, are not against us.'
This is the first time I've watched/listened to this channel. I'm happy that I found this video in particular because I loved what Lisa communicated. I'm very sad that what seemed like an open-minded and open-hearted conversation at first became less so when specific theological ideas were discussed. It then felt contentious to me. I've scrolled through the comments and feel like an outsider and not welcome here. Lisa, I look forward to reading your book. Everyone, please be kind to one another. Spiritual journeys are so sacred to each of us. Please honor each other's honest spiritual search.
Let’s pray for Lisa and all who are being led astray and deceived. All roads do not lead to the same place, to love Jesus is to believe in Him and what He said, especially who He claimed to be. To rely on feelings and mystical experiences is to be extremely vulnerable to Satan’s schemes. We need to be rooted strongly in the Truth, let what is True determine our thoughts, beliefs and ultimately, our feelings. To start at the opposite end is to be walking blindly on the side of a cliff.
In 2019 this interview was the first thing the Lord used to lead me into reconstruction to the Historic faith after a crushing season of doubt. So grateful!
Alexa - the notion of a historic Christian faith is a completely self-serving fasehood
@@greglogan7706 hmm. What motivates you to share this with me?
@@alexacramer608
Why do you think attaching to a deception is healthy? Worse, do you want to foist sickness off to the gullible??
@@greglogan7706 Why take the time to accuse a perfect stranger on the internet of such things?
@@alexacramer608
You are completely missing the point
I just finished reading Alisa’s book “Another Gospel” Wow...what an eye opener.
Titus- all Alisa Childers is doing is simply regurgitating shallow Evangelical humanistic reasoning
Both ladies appear to be genuine and approach their crises of faith with honesty, so kudos to both for that. For the first lady however, I get the impression that perhaps she hasn't completely reconstructed. Maybe for her, it's still a work in progress as she is working through some of the more fundamental issues and articles of faith. At this point, it seems as though she has gotten used to having contradictory ideas in her head at the same time and has become comfortable or at least at ease with believing them both at the same time. For her not to be sold on the resurrection seems problematic though, as the other lady points out that this is a crunch issue. True, we weren't there and there is no other proof we have of this pivotal event other than the testimony of eyewitnesses. 1 Corinthians 15:6 gives testimony to these eyewitnesses and goes on to say "many of whom are still living" almost as though to say "go and ask them." At some point though, when is enough evidence enough evidence? Written testimony passed down generation to generation is the only way of knowing events in the past that was available to these early believers at the time. There was no photography or video or even voice recording available to them (which is a whole other topic on its own, and I'm a firm believer that God specifically intended that Jesus would exist at a time when he could not be photographed or video recorded for very good reasons.) But at what point does faith kick in and we accept that there are things that cannot be proven scientifically or knowable to us at the present? Jesus tells us in Mark 10:15 that unless we accept the kingdom of God as a little child, that we cannot enter therein. I do not believe that this is the same thing as saying "look, if you're going to buy this Christianity, at some point you're going to have to check your brain at the door and just take our word for it on a lot of this." What it is saying, I believe, is that it's entirely possible to overthink this and to try to glean meaning and symbolism where there is none and to try to write our own narrative. And when we start to do that, we're on the slippery slope of inventing our own build-a-bear God to suit our own needs and fancies. And then we're firmly on the road to idolatry or worse.
Alias’s bridge analogy was great
36:41 was my favorite part of this interview. Spoken truly from a person in a vulnerable and honest place. It's a refreshing way to live and die. The truth (the truth I have personally been led to) is that we simply don't know, but we can hope - and in the meantime live our lives for peace and equity.
When Lisa says ' helps you love yourself more' defeats the meaning of Christianity.
It's Truth is to take the focus off of ourselves and put it wholely on Him.
To see our purpose in Him. It's the most beautiful thing.
Sadly Lisa was all over the place. She sincerely seems so lost it hurt to listen to her for her sake.
I know I need to spend more time praying for these people who are trying so hard to make Christianity 'comfortable ' for the world.
They aren't doing the world any favors.
My heart is so grieved for Lisa. May the HS guide her to Gods truth.
And what would you do if you actually knew her. Curious what action you might take or words you’d speak. And then I follow up with, how hard do you think it would be for a purported deity,who is love, merely take the exact same steps you’d take to win her back. This is the huge problem of divine hiddenness. the failure to meet such low bars of expectations is, for me, the most glaring way the Christian god can be shown not to actually exist, at least as a rational, relational, caring being capable of making itself known.
Wow...the calm and learned surety of Alisa. What a difference from Lisa.
Yeah the difference between the arrogant and the humble.
@@Hieiman
Thanks - you have saved me the need to respond to the silliness of this comment
@@Hieiman how on earth could you look at Alisa and say she's arrogant? She's rooted in truth and she knows it. Being confident is not the same as being arrogant. She was as graceful as one could be with Lisa. Without the Bible, you have nothing to hold to as truth and this was a good example of what that looks like on both sides. Alisa knows what she believes and why she believes it. If you think that's arrogance then idk what to tell you.
@@r3mm13arts
With the Bible you hold onto all kinds of silliness, errors, contradictions...😖😢
You have made a book of The Works of many different men into your deity - instead of worshipping God, you have created a wooden Idol...😢😢
Alyssa is full of her own ego arrogance self righteousness and condescension in the fables she has running around in her mind. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the Bible can see all through her silliness
@@greglogan7706 ohhh so you're someone who doesn't believe in the Bible yet claims to know God? Your initial argument sounds like an athiest argument so I assumed that but the whole idea some have of "Bibliolatry" also reeks of insecurity. Alisa and I both experienced the same thing when we questioned the Bible and came to the same conclusion about it after we looked deeper: it all ties together. Someone could look at the parables Jesus spoke and be confused but reference verses help explain the context and deeper meaning than surface level reading could ever give anyone. One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to "bring Scipture to our remembrance" so you're arguing against something the Holy Spirit is supposed to do as one of His main functions for even indwelling within us. We are not arrogant, we just know why we believe what we believe. Being directly "next" to Lisa, I guess she could look self righteous but really it isn't. You feel attacked by Alisa's theology because apologetics causes you to confront things you're personally not prepared to answer, and so you conflate "evengelical rhetoric" with "Biblical teachings" and call her arrogant. You just didn't come prepared and neither did Lisa and it bugs you both.