Hello you savages. Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get up to 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get up to 40% off Mando’s Starter Pack at ShopMando.com (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get 50% off your first Factor Meals box at factormeals.com/MW50 Here's the timestamps: 0:00 Are We Seeing a Christian Revival? 07:53 What’s Causing the Rise of Cultural Christianity? 18:46 Is it Possible to Choose to Believe in God? 23:48 Has Christianity Gone Too Soft? 38:49 Experience of Visiting the Vatican 43:49 Is the Rise in Religion Just a Conservative Movement? 57:59 Christianity as a Prophylactic Against Woke 1:05:33 Why Isn’t There an Islamic Revival? 1:15:31 The Gnostic Gospels 1:27:28 The Gnostic Version of Genesis 1:35:47 Why the Bible is Compiled As it is 1:42:13 Christianity’s Antidote to the Meaning Crisis 1:52:40 Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Debate With Dawkins 1:59:59 The Figureheads of the Christian Revival 2:06:44 Important Things Ignored by the Media 2:11:24 Where to Find Alex
God : "This last sin of despair is graver to me than all the other sins. Souls guilty of despair judge their misery greater than my mercy. (they are assuming Gods unforgiveness) The despair of Judas displeased me more and was more grave to my Son than was his betrayal of Him." Evil spirits of despair and infirmity want to inflict souls & trick them into believing in an unforgiving God. No repentant person will be turned away from God Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena - catholic mystic. Last segment of clip - as per timestamp 16:34 from RUclips video “What the Exorcists shared: Demons Masking as gods." From the channel Armor of God: Spiritual Warfare
A Devout Client of Mary Shall Never Suffer the Loss of His Soul There was a certain man who was religious in name only, but, wherever true religion was concerned, hard-hearted and careless. He was, however, in the habit of praying to the Blessed Virgin and saying once everyday a hundred “Hail, Mary’s.” Coming near his end, he was caught away in an ecstasy, and devils charged him before the Great Judge seeking a sentence that would adjudge him to be theirs. God, therefore, knowing his manifold sins, said that he must be condemned. Meantime the Blessed Virgin came offering schedules in which were contained all the “Hail Mary’s,” and begging her Son to allow him to receive a milder sentence. But the devils brought many books full of his sins. ‘The books on both sides were put into the scales, but the sins weighed most. Then the Blessed Virgin, seeing She was doing no good, earnestly besought her Son, saying: “Remember, Beloved, that Thou didst receive of my substance, visible, tangible and sensible substance; give to me one drop of Thy blood shed for sinners in Thy passion.” And he replied: “It is impossible to deny thee anything. Yet know that one drop of my blood weighs heavier than all the sins of the whole world. Receive therefore thy request.” Receiving it, She placed it in the scales, and all those sins of the religious weighed against it as light as ashes.‘Then the devils departed in confusion, crying out and saying: “The Lady is too merciful to Christians; we fail as often as She comes to contend with us.” And so the man’s spirit returned to his body, and on recovery he related the whole tale and became a true monk. Taken From The Glories of Mary By Saint Alphonsus Liguori ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our Lady explains the Hail Mary to Saint Mechtilde of Helfta (1241-1298): “My daughter, I want you to know that no one can please me more than by saying Rosary. The salutation which the Most Adorable Trinity sent to me, and by which He raised me to the dignity of Mother of God. By the word 'Ave' (which is the name Eve, Eva), I learned that in His infinite power God had preserved me from all sin and its misery, which the first woman had brought upon herself. The name ‘Mary’ which means ‘Lady of Light’ shows that God has filled me with wisdom and light, like a shining star, to light up Heaven and Earth. The words ‘full of grace’ remind me that the Holy Spirit has showered so many graces upon me that I am able to give these graces in abundance to those who ask for them through me as Mediatrix. When people say the ‘Lord is with thee,’ they give to me again the indescribable joy that I received when the Eternal Word became incarnate in my womb. When you say to me ‘blessed art thou among women,’ I praise Almighty God’s Divine mercy which raised me to this exalted level of happiness. And at the words, ‘blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus,’ the whole of Heaven rejoices with me to see my Son Jesus Christ adored and glorified for having saved mankind.”
7:15 This guy alex is acting like an extraordinary smart person ever born on this planet... Alex were you there that time when that happen?? Can you tell me then what made these people to go away after Jesus had said something??? Dear alex the smartest guy please tell me what did Jesus said then that caused all these angry croud to turn away one by one????? His confidence of something not seen not heard by himself shames himself. Do you think alex these people carried a high-tech recorder to record everything????? Don't you know Alex that these are also humen beings?? Don't you know they started writing the Bible after a long time? Don't you know devine intervention was also there as well as human???
26:45 Alex you can't interpret or fram a religion based on what people do. That is silly to even think about. Do you depict and potray parents by what children are doing??? 😂😂😂😂😂
Two possibilities exist: either Alex becomes the greatest atheist of all time or the greatest Christian convert of all time. Both are equally terrifying.
@@miketrotman9720 I agree; I think there's a chance he'll convert at some point. I've seen a few videos like this with him and I do think he's more open to Christianity than he used to be, at least as I see it. I've noticed him almost arguing in favour of Jesus/Christianity and then kind of "correcting" himself with a dismissal of the underlying principles
I think people are just getting tired with how degenerate society has become. From music, media, life, everything is over seggualized, people are cold blooded, selfish, and glorify manipulating and treating people like trash, etc. People get tired of that and end up craving stability, safety, and morals.
I bet that the Viking wannabe that is Rationality Rules is silently fuming at the "soft touch" his atheist bestie is giving to Christianity. Alex isnt too far off heretic status among the anti-theists. 😜 Yeah...he gives it loads in debates, I feel to try to stick it to the fundamentalist in the US but he rather cosys up to his Catholic and Anglican brothers on this side of the pond. 😎
As a Christian I really enjoy listening to Alex articulate his views regarding religion & Christianity in particular. Gives me great insight on how to approach non believers and atheists.
Agreed. He is a respectful, articulate and intelligent non believer. He gets the value of the Good News, even if he lacks faith in it. That's how we draw them in. Come for the cultural Christianity, stay for the salvation.
Now how do you feel that I am one of these people who were driven to question our current reality and by simple observation have come to fully believe in a guiding God hand, and that Jesus was correct. You too can just observe who is happy. Who is. Ot, who is prospering who is not. All lies are being shown to be false, all narratives of man are falling apart.
I'm a Christian, and these are two of the most interesting people on the planet. I love both Chris and Alex's approach to these ideas. I hope they are a bridge for my generation for a higher value of ethics.
I'd love that but I think fear still rules the decisions of most people and, even worse perhaps, people who are in denial that they are ruled by fear. Basically animals with weapons of mass destruction. But did Jesus not say, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness..." He did NOT say, "Blessed are those *who persecute others* because of righteousness..."
@@louisdeniau8571 dont believe in him, i believe in Jesus Christ. But Jay makes great content that defends and explains orthodoxy. What rights does he want to take away again?
In my opinion, Alex's understanding of Jesus in Christianity as the Word becoming flesh and the Quran in Islam as the Word becoming a book is profoundly perceptive. I have never heard anyone make this kind of comparison before.
@@chellya2004 Wanting to be sure if you were right, I looked it up. Apparently, Kenneth Cragg, an Anglican bishop and scholar, in his 1956 book, "The Call of the Minaret," made this description of the two. Now I know.
@@stevesmith4901 Theodore Noldeke pointed to this distinction between the two religions 150 years ago. Scholastic philosopher Thomas Aquinas comes pretty close too,almost 800 years ago.
That’s not a point against Alex though, it just means he is well read and agrees with key thinkers throughout history. So he’s probably right on the point.
@@wessjr08 True, but if this had been an original observation by Alex, it would have been phenomenal. I was under the impression that it was. So, I'm just slightly disappointed, that's all. Regardless, Alex is still pretty insightful on religion.
Although I was baptized Catholic, my family was atheistic during my youth. I've recently returned to the church last year and I can honestly say it's made me a better husband, father, and person. For me, the transformative moment was actually reading the bible and listening to homilies on the internet. At point I realized that I had trusted what my society pushed upon me, that religion was for 'naive people' or 'idiots'. It was after starting to delve into the material myself and experience it's teachings that I realized the truth; I was listening to other people's 'truths' rather than finding my own. I wasted decades of my life with meaninglessness because the mentors around me convinced me i didn't need religious meaning in my life, and I should absorb their ethics, or their meaning instead. I forgive them, but I won't make the same mistakes again. Form your own opinions, read the words yourselves. Don't trust society to make the decisions for you. Even the educated may fall short in virtues.
Odd, I had the exact opposite experience: born and raised in a SUPER Catholic family, went faithfully to church every weekend for 27 years, and prayed to God and JC. I left my home town, went to college, moved outta state, started traveling the world, and moved to Europe all the while staying religious. Then came trump. I watched in absolute horror as the VAST majority of my "good Christian" family turned into a pack of hateful monsters who STILL worship the "God chosen" orange sociopath to this day. That cracked my religious foundation. I started to question it all. I started to read more into the history of the church and the very idea of religion itself. I thought logically and used reason to try to make sense of it all. Tried to understand how God could allow such an EVIL man to corrupt and brainwash my loved ones. I prayed A LOT. And at the end of it all, after 3 years of questioning, learning, praying, making the ultimatum to God and Jesus to simply reveal themselves to me as they both did MULTIPLE times in the Old and New Testaments, I finally let it all go. I finally realized that there simply is no god. There is no unseen mystical/magically/spirtiual power controlling the world around me. That was over 6 years ago and I have not had a single sign from God. Nothing. Been atheist ever since. On the bright side of it all, I have never felt more free and happy in my entire life! I am truly my own self. A massive weight has been lifted and I can look confidently at the world around me and truly uderstand how it works. Without any kind of god, everything makes sense. I have become a better man in the sense that I now look at all the problems of the world and instead of just dismissing them as "God's plan", I actually accept them and try to learn how and why they happen so that I can try to do my own personal little part in trying to fix them. I take on full responsibily for my actions in this ONE AND ONLY life without selfishly thinking that I don't need to care about this world because there's a better afterlife waiting for me. Ironically, I have become more "Christ-like" because I actually care and TAKE ACTION to help the poor, the neady, and the sick. People need to realize that they don't need religion to be a good person. We are our own beings.
@@TheAmericanAmerican Thanks for replying, I'm glad you've found more happiness in your life. It's definitely an interesting notion, to have the two of us have similar epiphanies with opposing results. For me, I think my advice isn't to be religious, or not- rather it's to make your own decisions rather than relying on the normal people prescribe for you without individual verification. I don't think religion, or a lack of religion, makes any guarantee on people being good. People are inherently flawed, and religion doesn't remove the propensity of people to hate. Lack of religion doesn't either. I certainly didn't read any prescriptions to hate in the new testament, but people can interpret things a variety of ways. The history of the church is rife with the same class of mistakes. If people are imperfect, so are religious institutions (and all institutions for that matter.) My belief is that our past shouldn't necessarily dictate the totality of how our existence is defined. Humans will make mistakes and do evils, so will human institutions, but this doesn't imply an incapability to do good, or more good than evil. It does imply that humans and organizations need to continually analyze what they're doing from external perspectives in order to minimize the evil they commit. I don't believe people require religion to be good. My wife, for example, is agnostic; but I believe her to be a very good person. My hope isn't that all become religious, but I also hope people don't purposefully devalue religion and hope for others to lose that value set in their life, when it's done them good. Not everyone has the same value sets, not everyone has the same perspective. There is a set of people for which religion has done harm to their life, and there is a set of people for which the absence of religion has done harm in their life. It's hard to find universal outcomes with regard to humans. My hope is people make their own decisions, rather than trust the opinions already formed by those around them. In my case, the opinion pushed on me was that religious people are dumb and naive. I never read anything since my return to the church that gave me any sense of causality between stupidity and faith. In your case it sounds like the opinion was that religion is required to be good and things were the result of gods plan and may not merit an attempt at comprehension or action. You've come to your own conclusions about the truth of that opinion, rather than trust it, and it's led to your happiness. Even if our outcomes are the same, I think the values ascribed to our happiness are the same; form your own opinions and find your own happiness.
It's a if the bible's accurate and the great tribulation, is coming, even naturalists, like Alex will likely soon be on board with christian morality. That's how stark the difference between good and bad is going to become.
You have seemed to conflate faith and politics in much the same way that you accuse your family of. If Trump is uniquely evil in your mind (the Devil if you will) and a messianic figure to your family, you are both making the same mistake. Voting for Trump doesn’t make you evil, irreligious or an heretic any more than voting Biden does. Politics isn’t God.
Alex and Christ are a great double act. Sniping at each other and smiling as they enjoy the joust. Both are genuine people striving to gain the truth. Their discussion is both edifying and entertaining.
They do seem interested in truth, such a rare quality these days. What if Jesus was right, "The truth will set you free", but so many of us would much rather be comfortable, and some even love the comfort so much they willing to kill for it. Maybe, truly "narrow is the path…"?
I’m just a common cleaner and shop worker but I’ve definately felt a revival of REAL Christianity in the UK. I’m a catechumen in the Eastern Orthodox Church and looking forward to being baptised.
These guys should also try Eastern Orthodoxy. The shock about "all this Jesus thing is just a spectacle" would probably vanish, if they witnessed a vigil in a monastery.
Because its a shorthand way of saying, "I'm atheist for all practical purposes, but I still acknowledge that as a society we have to work together on solving our communal problems, and as a general rule, I tend to rely on what might broadly be called 'christian' values."
folks are converting from shia islam to Christianity in iran and as a newly converted christian i enjoyed this massively and i gotta say both of you are close 😄
Honestly , Shia are not Muslim. There is no following one the Quran. So I would not consider them Muslim I would rather refer to them as Christianity 2.0. As they worship religious figures which are not god.
@@goarmysleepinthemud. I don’t understand the question. I can only share what I believe. My belief in a creator is due to the beautiful designs of animals and different/distinct beautiful designs of humans and many things that suggests to me that we are designed but not by chance. I believe life is a test so that is why there is evil and good. These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation. 1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**: - "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided." 2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**: - "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination." 3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**: - "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars." 4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**: - "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving." 5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**: - "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation. 1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**: - "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided." 2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**: - "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination." 3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**: - "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars." 4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**: - "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving." 5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**: - "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
After speaking to numerous people over the years about Christ, I’m coming around to the fact that, while the mind has to be engaged, it’s really the state of the heart that I now look for. I think that’s the fundamental lesson of the parable of the Sower and the Seed.
The idea of parables is to make the words palatable. If yoi say to a person "go to the gym", they will tell you to go take a walk. If you take 5 minutes to beautifully engage with them about health and whatnot, way bigger chance of getting them into a gym
@newme1589, Only to those who understand the “language” of the Scriptures. Once you do understand it, it opens up worlds of depth of meaning. “But to those outside, everything else is in parables” Mark 4:11.
I was raised very Christian but it has lapsed in adulthood, and I have found a more religious experience in the study of history, philosophy, and literature. I have a soft spot for religions in that I find them to be fascinating, and part of the reason I enjoy conversations featuring Alex O'Connor is because I can relate to one being compelled to study religion without accepting them as fact. I don't wish to be governed by religious law, and just the same as I would be against any form of legislating religion for the masses, I will also always be in favor of the freedom to worship and believe as one sees fit. Thanks for the great conversation, Chris.
I’m talking as a Christian and Christianity was never meant to be a governing rule or law. Jesus even said that: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s” or when He said: “My sovereignty is not of this world.”
@@BroJo676of course it was. That's the sole point of religion. Especially monotheistic ones. From your own version of the supernatural, tell me about the doctrine of 2 swords in the garden of Gethsemane.
You've used the term religion and religious multiple times and I get the impression they have slightly different meanings depending on the context. What do YOU mean by religion and religious?
@@guywilletts2804 History also shows quite the contrary to what you’re saying. Christianity became a major religion from the moment on which it became the state religion of the Roman Empire back in 380 through the Edict of Thessaloniki. Before that, even when Christianity no longer was forbidden in the Roman Empire, all the Roman rulers, from the very first August to the very last in 376, were required to also act as the Roman religious leader aka Pontifex Maximus (the Greatest Priest in Latin). The Christianity adoption put an end to that because it’s legitimately understood that Jesus was not searching for and uninterested in gaining some form of political power. Now, I’m not denying there could be some influence from religious institutions but the absolute power never belonged to the Church and history clearly shows it.
I do agree that many of these so called "Christians" do not walk like one. Always lean to their own understanding and never open their mind and/or ears to others because they think what they think it is true and absolute. Not only what they think, but their knowledge is that of a child; Surface level understanding, and they take these surface level understanding as absolute truth without exploring.
Good stuff Chris. In the last three you went from AI to Chaos theory, to a conversation about Christianity. Always surprised by the your breadth of topics. Keep it coming.
May God draw them both to the love of Jesus. I became a Christian at 24 over 30 years ago, and I can't imagine life without Him. I was hopeless and purposeless, but the cross broke through my stubborn, sinful heart. He is the Blessed Savior! ❤❤❤ And life only got better and richer, and it still does. The legacy of abuse and addiction and divorce that I knew ended with me; my marriage is strong, and our children's marriages are on solid ground as they all walk with the Lord. It's not easy. It is beautiful. My joy comes from Him regardless of the sorrows and hard circumstances that come. I praise Him in the sunshine and in the rain, and I'm never alone.
It’s atheists realizing Islam has a huge growth and wanting to make Christianity rival Islam. Choosing teams basically. But how would that help Christian’s when fake Christian’s join while Islam requires actual thought and dedication to chose Islam. Islam will continue to grow the more people open their eyes
@@abdiahmed1371 The thing is that cultural Christianity cannot help actual believers regardless of how much they engage in wishful thinking. The moment the trans-ideology and wokism go down (assuming they will, which I am not sure about) the old things that drove people away from Christianity in the first place (the stance on homosexuality & abortion, purity culture, mental gymnastics to justify biblical claims etc.,) will cause all those self-proclaimed cultural Christians to move away as quickly as they joined. And yes, Islam will continue to grow as long as countries don't change their immigration policies and don't adopt integration-first approach. I doubt that this will happen as such stance requires the acknowledgment that cultures are not equal.
@@three_owl_night I agree with all that u said except Islam will continue to grow whether immigration/integration is managed or not. The reason why is because Islam teaches that devotion and morals is for God and from God. Everything a Muslim does is with the belief that God will judge them on it and will either reward them or punish them and that this life that last less than a 100 years is not greater than the next life that last forever. Paradise is worth the struggle and is motivation to do good in this life so that you live there best life in the next
The most relevant "Will of the Father" is for us to return to Him. While returning to Him, we are embodying Him, and we resemble as much as possible with Him in mercy, in kindness, in forgiveness, in divine love, in the self sacrifice for the lost ones to return as the sons and daughters to their Maker.
The fact that Alex delves so deep into the Gnostic texts is extraordinary. The more he talks about the Gnostics and their conception of the universe, and reality as a whole, the more it feels like Buddhist Cosmology: Samsara, de realm of birth and death, is to be seen as a prison. A place - and a process, at that - where you are 'locked in', 'enslaved' by your own craving and clinging, which originates fundamentally from ignorance - that is, we see existence in the wrong terms, and therefore keep running around and around, chasing our tails, going up and down, up and down, eternally, until we find a way out. The way out is to destroy that very ignorance. There is no other way. And the way to end ignorance is the Eightfold Path, which leads you to the Truth of nirvana and liberation. We have a remarkable parallel on that aspect in the Gospel of John (which seems to be focused on liberation): So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” See: 'You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free'. Well, 'What is truth?' Pilate asks him later, but gives him no time to answer. Christians insist on repeating the words of Jesus, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life'. Great. What does that mean? How do you apply that to your life, to your cognition, to how you see and interpret the world as a whole? How does THAT free you from being enslaved to sin and ignorance, because sin can only be born out of ignorance? What is a Christian supposed to DO in this world, instead of waiting passively for the Second Coming while the world turns to ash? There is a lot to unpack here, because the more you look at it, the more it seems that immense parts of Christian Cosmology have been erased and/or hidden, as if to intentionally make things more difficult and obscure. Maybe because the Powers That Be don't WANT you to be liberated.
Agree there are some fascinating parallels between Gnostic cosmology and Hindu philosophy too. Such a Barbarello the female aspect who is something like Adi Shakti.
To me stuff like this is the biggest argument against religion being a biological bug that helps us build societies. The level of specificity and wierdness to these traditions goes far beyond ''we dreamed of a bearded guy in the clouds that tells us to be good to eachother or he will punish us''. Its so specific, wierd, and consistent across different parts of the world, it has to be real in some capacity
Great call Chris. Love your style and choice of guests. I have been watching Alex since he was a young person. He is a gifted speaker and a wise and gentle conversationalist who seems to leave his ego at home every time he comes out to play. This may be my favourite of all of his conversations. And we have you to thank. Cheers.
I would describe myself as a cultural Christian. Being bought up in a Christian society, with its culture and values, obviously leaves an imprint on you. It is very familiar and comforting, not necessarily in any spiritual way though. My brain cannot except, anything that is not grounded in reality. It’s just the way it works. It doesn’t stop me appreciating Christian values and its long cultural history. The beautiful churches and cathedrals and amazing coral music. It is all part of my heritage. I believe it’s definitely worth fighting for.
God is as real as it gets, my bro. Do you think atoms spontaneously appeared and randomly collided till we have humans with eyes and brains with consciousness? Intelligent design is obvious.
@@Maxfox11 Search 'Apologetics' on RUclips. There are many eloquent answers to that question. A common view is that life is a very short test and suffering is part of existence for all people before we spend eternity in bliss. That is an excellent deal on balance. During our time on Earth, man has free will and he is free to make life awful for other people. Additionally, as mortal beings, we will all get sick, suffer and die. This will happen at different times for different people for different reasons. Cancer as a child. Parkinson's at 80. Christians don't pretend to know why people die. We just try to accept it and appreciate the time we have. Having gratitude for life and stoic acceptance of suffering are just some of the gifts that come from Christianity.
@@Maxfox11 Cancer comes from the toxic environment and stress (food etc.) caused by humans. We have been given a freedom of choice. There are things we can do to help people. Some peopIe choose to not care. Do you, help kids with cancer? l've experienced tumors myseIf, but have aIso heaIed. l came to reaIize that my body did the exact correct thing in moving the toxins into the tumors, when it just couIdn't do aII the work in removing the toxins, because of my own unheaIthy IifestyIes and choices. The stress was a huge part of the cause, but it got greatIy aIIeviated with prayer. Because with faith l dropped the urgent need to stressfully controI everything and everyone around me. And then my tumor started to shrink.
Chris, I watched a Christian testimony from Isaiah Saldivar yesterday that was very impactful, and I think it would be so cool to listen to you interview him (a fully convinced Christian). Also John Burke who wrote a book about near death experiences and people who’ve encountered Jesus through that (even atheists and followers of other religions). Thanks for the great conversations!
Isaiah teaches a false gospel. All the deliverance ministries are deceiving people. Revealing Truth youtube channel shows many examples of Isaiah's false teachings.
Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they are one. That is why Jesus said 'you will know them by their fruit'. As a Christian, I should not act, look, or talk like the rest of the world. If I do, follow brethren should be concerned for me.
In your photo, you look pretty much like the rest of us. I can't imagine how you can hope to spread your "message" if you doggedly refuse to "act, look, or talk like the rest of the world".
Amen! My grandson, at age 13, claimed to be an atheist. His father is a professor at an Ivy League where quite a few of the students are atheists, and they live on campus. I think he thought it was cool and made him look smarter. Now, at 15, he has softened a bit. When they visited me at Christmas, he offered to go to Church with me, which was a surprise. When he came home, he told his parents that Christians are nicer people than his atheist friends, and then he told them I think I want to marry a Christian girl. What a delight to hear. One of the top scientists in the U.S., Dr. Francis Collins, was an atheist. He has a PhD in chemistry from Yale and then decided to get an M.D. He was the director of NIH and worked under three presidents. He was the lead scientist of the Human Genome Project, which saved millions of people. After noticing his religious patients lived better, were healthier, and handled serious illness better, he looked into Christianity at the advice of his patient. He became a Christian and has written several books on God. I love his book, "A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, The Language of God." He takes it from a scientific viewpoint why belief in God is reasonable and why the Christian God makes sense.
@@petretepner8027 If I'm kind while others are rude, loving to those with hate, longsuffering in times of trial..all because I have HIS love. This speaks volumes.
There are times when I feel like atheists, being on the outside, understand Christianity better than we who practice. Alex's comments on the scandal of the cross were so spot on. And even Dawkins, there was one interview where someone asked him what it would mean if God were proven by science, he stopped dead, and just the look on his face. He told the reporter deadpan, "It would be the most important discovery in the history of mankind." And he was stonefaced about it. It gave me chills, man. In some negative converse way, these guys understand what it means to believe in God more than most of us who are practicing. And that's probably why they don't - they recognize what it would mean if they did. And that's a kind of belief in a way.
Australia is not what I would consider a particularly religious country. But the revelation that Australia had its first openly atheist prime minister in the 2010s was a very big deal. Very interesting to read back on that
Fellow Australian, we are actually more Christian then you think. 30% of parents and rising use fee charging Christian schools. Christianity is still the majority religion at about 50%, in the UK it is a minority. Was it Kevin Rudd?
@@Chicky1234-m3f We are not big church goers. But it's rare to meet an Australian who is completely atheist with no spiritual beliefs. I babysit after school, and the state of the government schools is so bad, most children are very devout, because they go to Christian schools. As for the far right, which I think was the topic of conversation, it is true, because we have freedom of religion in Australia, but we don't have freedom of speech.
Atheism is not a pendulum, it’s an anomaly in history that has utterly failed. The people have awoken to the realization that with the removal of God from society, the downfall of society simultaneously occurs because they are inextricably linked, and more importantly it is a false belief. It now faces disintegration, for it offers society nothing but lies and ruin. The future is Theist. ❤
What an unbelievably interesting conversation. Edit; will have to revisit this, so much value and I've found myself with a great admiration of Alex and will be exploring his thoughts more, thanks again.
From my viewing of the Ayaan-Dawkins discussion, she didn't clearly answer whether or not she believed in the tree. The impression I got was that she doesn't, and only chooses in the sense that I choose to pretend that the characters in my favorite show are real so that I can get into the show and it makes the show more fun, but I, of course, know that they are not.
Also in Deuteronomy 21:14 "But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her." Around time stamp 1:02:00 Alex mentions the Captures of war.
Thankfully Christians believe in the new covenant and would consider the Old Testament non moral laws as for a specific time in the past, given in a corrupt culture. One can be a follower of Jesus and yet not affirm that all the Old Testament laws came from God word for word. Much of it reflects the authors of that time’s views. The likes of Pete Enns and Gregory Boyd are good writers to go to on the trouble of the Old Testament. Also, you can read Origen of Alexandria in the early church work’s who said that Christians should take a deeper, spiritual understanding of all scripture and where possible a literal understanding.
What point are you trying to make? He was talking about you enslaving her and your point is that you wouldn't be allowed to resell her? Your bored with her so let her go is a good moral thing?
@@mmoreno7137 Full quote: "When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her." This passage talks about a situation when you found a woman who you like and how to properly treat her.
Its aparent to me that while this isnt good for our modern day morals its incredibly progressive for the time, you can say that christianity isnt essentially moral and good because it allows bad things, but it seems to me it always allows a less bad flavour of bad. If the only times slavery is brought up the prhasing is ''you can own people, but dont mistreat them'' its clear that the underlying message is morally good, its just constrained by its time
I was surprised he brought this up to be honest given how good he'd been elsewhere in this conversation. Deuteronomy is a book from the Old Testament, while all of the universalising tendencies Tom Holland brings up are really located in the New Testament. There are tons of things in the OT that are considered obsolete or no longer binding. Christians eat pork!
I'm not an emotional person and when I hear the music come on I zone out for the whole worship time. Everyone is typically really into the music and have their hands raised, we are known for our band. However, when the scripture is read I always get goosebumps and get the feels ..
Instead the “sacred” as what draws people to religion across time, I think it’s better clarified as what provides **hope and order**. Coming from a extremely religious and also academically religious background, I have heard this insinuated and spoken explicitly countless times. People have trouble letting go of their religion (or questioning their religion at all) because it is the ultimate fallback hope to acute and general mundane suffering in life. It orders the chaos and puts a light at the end of the tunnel. That is the draw to religion more than anything else about beauty and love, although those play into the same theme. Believed by its adherents, religion specifically secures a final hope/resolution and *enough* current order. However, it just does a poor job of inviting *everyone* to a path of spiritual transformation. Religion seems to be inherently sectarian and gated-group-forming. I would suggest precisely because it has to determine ultimate value/categorize humans in kind of a binary “are you in or are you out with God/heaven” kind of way. When that is the final stakes / dichotomy, religion will be sectarian. And an open-source spiritual path will be thought of as “secondary” or will be heavily devalued. I think today we are seeing the results of massive nominal-only Christianity and the desire for more real spiritual transformation/Aka fruits. Religion, if keeping ultimate binary stakes, cannot provide this. It will always devolve into a mechanistic belief system to secure hope. I honesty think people prefer a sense of “guaranteed hope/order” over the real ambiguity of pursuing the spiritual path open to everyone and anyone.
Agreed. Well worded. People have tried finding solace in the logic of new atheism but like all movements, it was destined to have a deadline to its popularity. It alienated a lot of people and the pendulum is swinging back to a mean position and in some parts of the world, to the other extreme as well.
@@alinachrist8416 for sure. I think there is a spacious meeting ground for all of us. Assuming there will be a perfectly harmonious future one day can also mislead us. Peace and love are a means, not an eventual end. Aka I don’t think unity=final same thinking for everyone, but unity= an effort to collaborate despite not thinking the same. Our diversity/collaboration, once you accept it’s gonna always be that way, is actually pretty fun! :)
That is very well articulated. My husbands side of the family is very religious, and all their testimonies share those elements you mentioned; some of them are obvious and on the surface, others are less articulated but still clearly observable from someone on the outside like myself. The obvious ones are the hope of salvation (eternal life after death which makes everything that happens in life bearable) and knowledge that everything is God's will (which is order, regardless of whether one likes that order or not). The less obvious one is the in/out group dynamics.
As a Christian, brought up in a Christion home in the UK, back in the 80's and 90's and being more or less bullied for my beliefs at school, it blows my mind to hear two people who are so well known and who barely believe in God, talk for 2 hours about the rise of Christianity. It's quite heart warming really. I have been a part of a number of different churches through my life, of all different styles and varieties and I have definitely seen a "change in the wind" as it were. I feel like culturally the west went through a phase of turning away from God, thinking that it was just infantile and that science rules the day and we should be able to live how we like and "you do you, man"....but we are now seeing how that has just caused the moral fabric to fall apart and I think people are starting to realise things don't really go very well when we try to do things our own way. It feels like people are starting to think "maybe there is something to this Christianity thing". I know church attendance has been declining in the West for a long time, but I feel like things are bottoming out now and the tide is beginning to turn. My personal experience has been that while the stablished traditional churches have been dying out, a new generation of churches has been growing up in their place, with a fresh take on things stylistically, but still sticking to the core beliefs of the gospel. It will be interesting to see how things pan out.
I’m a Christian. It is definitely a choice to believe. I think biblically it is meant to be a choice. There are many reasons I choose to believe, and it’s in the convergence of these reasons that it really becomes pretty easy to have faith, but it took me many years to get to this point. One reason that’s often overlooked but is indirectly touched upon in this conversation is the truth found in “goodness.” When I test the way of Jesus in my life it’s always just good. For example, if I have an argument with my wife, and I surrender it to God and think how would God want me to react and treat her… boom it’s always good. I let my pride and resentment guide me… it’s always bad. This is just one example. But true in literally every aspect of my life. It’s basically become a law of nature to me. It’s good therefore it’s true. “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.”
I don't understand how you find it a choice to believe. Can you believe there is no gravity? Can you go up a very tall tower and decide that you can fly?
It sounds you’re choosing to believe the good stuff in the Bible and maybe choosing to ignore some of the not-so-good stuff. Which is fine, those are the best kinds of Christians.
@@markallen8022because the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven; it’s a choice each of us has to make, and reasonable minds can and have disagreed.
1:12:05 A Muslim friend I met at work essentially told me the same thing in as many words. It was very helpful in understanding their perspectives better as I was ignorant beforehand.
Around 11:24 more I realize that Alex forgets the entire Eastern philosophy and "religion" like daoism and zen. No need to appeal to an "other" or "sacred" outside, the sacred, for we are and all is sacred and profane at the same time. Everything just is. It's very liberating and what the seekers in the west need to hear.
You are wrong... He knows that Eastern Philosophy of "finding God inside yourself" is one of the worst possible Philosophical ideas. Love the God inside yourself is to Love yourself. Finding Peace inside you is to ignore all those who need help outside you. You can understand it better from a Slavoj Zizek book called "Christian Atheism". PS: There are many Christian books better than this one, criticizing Buddhism for example, but I am not going to recommend it.... I know you wouldn't read them just because they are Christian books .... Better recommend a Left wing Atheist book to explain what I am trying to say.
@@alextyze I can appreciate your comment. Not sure you understand eastern concepts well but you had limited space to explain. It's not about finding god within yourself or to love yourself, and if it was that would still not negate helping others suffering. It's difficult to liberate others from suffering if you are suffering yourself internally. I was a Christian for over 30 years and spent 7 years of it in a theological seminary. Most likely a lot of what you've read and found helpful I might have read or approached from a different writer or perspective. Nevertheless, I still hold that Alex' discussions will be greater once he begins to look at and incorporate more eastern approaches but his audience, like yourself, likely would find it to different an environment to comprehend and incorporate easily.
How can you be both sacred and profane at the same time? To be sacred it to be set apart for a specific purpose. It's impossible to be set apart and also adulterated with that which is NOT sacred.
@@corygiesbrecht9133I wouldn't necessarily say that it's because the environment would be too different to comprehend (though it may be part of it). But it's mostly about relevance, most of his audience is not interested in eastern religion which is why he doesn't talk about it much.
One of your best convos yet, Chris. I am a Christian and a pastor (yep, a megachurch pastor), and I loved this conversation. Great job being charitable with views you don't agree with. Alex, super fair representation of Christianity overall. Thanks for that. Chris, I have great respect that you tried out a church on Easter. Well done! It might help to think of the rock band, pyrotechnics, and LED wall as modern packaging on the ancient message of the Gospel. The Gnostic discussion was super interesting, though Gnosticism, as a philosophy, wasn't really developed till well after the NT era, and it glommed onto everything (Judaism, Christianity, even the Greek/Roman pantheon). Alex, when you say to "flip open the Old Testament" and see what you find (as an illustration of Judeo-Christian values), perhaps what you find is the chaos of a society or people that rejects Judeo-Christian values that the Bible actually endorses. One thing to dig into more would be the meaning of the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus. What does the New Testament (and Old) say about the meaning of those things? It's worth checking into. Keep following after truth... it's the one journey to never give up on. Chris, earlier in the comments, Justin Brierley offered himself to be interviewed by you... look him up. He's very well-known and extremely knowledgeable. That would be top-class interview and would draw one of your largest audiences ever. You'd really like him, too. Thanks again for a fascinating conversation.
I follow the way(you would call me Christian) . Alex takes an approach to discussing the impact, critiquing the areas that don’t add up, and fearlessly holding everyone to account (better had done your homework when you sit down to have a discussion with Alex), is so refreshing as a follower of the “way, the truth, the life”. Thank you Alex, I’ve grown in my understanding and perspective listening to you.
I hope not. I actually enjoy these podcasts and would like to continue doing so. (A bit facetious and Chris can obviously bring on whoever he wants but it wouldn’t be an episode I’d watch)
Alex knows (and understands!) the Scriptures better than > 99% of all Christians. As I listened more and more, this verse (and we know you this verse, Alex 😊) kept coming to mind: "And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, 'You are not far from the kingdom of God.' " (Mark 12:34) 🙏
1:57:23 "Now I've got to overcome some of the objections to the Resurrection [before I can believe]." I'm sure others have likely already steered you (Alex) towards the works of Dr. Gary Habermas (likely the best Christian authority on the Resurrection)-- but if you were to read his massive two-volume work: • 'On the Resurrection, Vol. I: Evidences' (1,072 pgs) • 'On the Resurrection, Vol. II: Refutations' (896 pgs) ...Many of us would be thrilled to see you engage and discuss the subject with Dr. Habermas. Just a thought...
I agree to a point, I was raised Christian and became an agnostic in part because of Dawkins and Hitchens. The argument was always you can me moral without subscribing to Christianity but does seem like the last decade that the atheist movement ostracizes anyone that doesn’t subscribe to a more progressive ideology politically. Think Hitchens would be considered a bigot by many in the atheist sphere and possibly critiqued because he had friends who were Christian
I feel that the cause and effect is the other way around. People will rationally change their belief based on what they see is more convenient to act on, and very few people actually have the meta-cognitive ability to see what they are doing. I think that the reality hits first before beliefs, not the other way around. People are blindly following this cult of ridiculous progressiveness not because they decided not to believe in Christianity but because what they want in their life is against the teaching of Christianity. I see them as "atheist by convenience". And I actually do not like these progressive political ideologies, despite being an atheist myself. I'm an atheist not because it's convenient for me, but because I think it's just the right answer. Political ideologies has nothing to do with my reason for being atheist. And people who are, in my opinion, is just an opportunist than anything else.
As a Muslim, I was astounded by his true knowledge about Islam. This man can make a podcast on Islam too at this point. Though I believe his beliefs are untrue, his knowledge is great. Brilliant 👏
I don't think he has a good understanding of Islam at all aside from just a superficial level. It doesn't sound like he did any research on Islam theology and philosophy. Fiqh, Ijtihad, Tawheed, Zikhr, Jihad, Fitna, Dunya, Zakat, Waḥdat al-wujūd, etc. All of these concepts in my opinion are are FUNDAMENTAL to what ISLAM actually is. One has to study these in their depth to have a better understanding into the Islamic Psyche.
They are discussing religions based on Thier scriptures Reality is viewed differently by everyone Pretty sure you don't even know any of the concepts he just mentioned@@azmainfaiak8111
I knew God was real when I was given everything in youth, yet had suicidal ideation and addictions beyond my control. I studied theology and philosophy for years and ended up believing Jesus Christ is truly The Word in Flesh. I’m still trying to be more like him.
God was truly cruel to put you in such a situation...to create your entire seeing around him being the only route to relief...sounds like an abusive relationship
@@warbler1984 it’s abusive to study the Bible and theology for several years, come to believe God and then through Jesus I’ve began to transform my life and everyone around me is noticing? God didn’t put myself in that situation, I did. With my free will and bad decisions I ended up where I was. What are you even saying? It’s not “relief” either. It’s helping me overcome ACTUAL abusive relationships with addiction and substances. Do you know anything about Christianity? If someone finds meaning in things, that’s an abusive relationship to you? I’m sorry you grew up that way, that must be very difficult. Good luck man, I wish you the best
@@henryconner780 I think what he's saying is that its kinda fucked up to put someone in that situation in the first place knowing that such a life would lead to despair and agony, and god "did nothing until you believed." Its not like a person came into your life and made a change with their presence. Its a supposed god who knows and plans your whole life supposedly before your born. If gods were real then they would make sure there are ways to ensure someone will have a happy life and not lose their free will doing it. But no, he intentionally made the events of your life lead to drugs addictions and feelings of suicide. Also God didn't give you strength at all you found the strength within yourself to overcome those obstacles. Stories like yours are great but when i hear people not give themselves the credit they deserve and give it to some god, its just frustrating. Also Grew up Baptist and reading the bible was ONE of the things that lead to my deconstruction....Hell i think it single handedly started me to question my birth religion in the first place. Its a pretty fucked up book all through, but especially the old testament. Definitely not for children. believe or don't believe, its clearly helped you, but the fact i can go to india and find people saying the same thing about hinduism, and Saudi Arabia with Islam, is pretty damning for any religion
@@XxUSAF1RExX… jesus christ wishes he was you. Can i pray to you? Cuz GODDAMN that shit was impressive. I literally could not have said it better myself. Like do you have any other comments to people i can read, cuz that shit made my whole day… and i just woke up. Live Long Legend
@@XxUSAF1RExX I’m Christian Orthodox. We believe free will, I had thought my responsibility was implied through my free will. It seems you don’t understand Orthodox theology, that’s perfectly fine, you have never been exposed to it maybe. We believe God knows our lives and how they would unfold in every scenario. So it’s not Orthodox to believe God made me do evil, that’s heretical. I chose to do evil, I chose to let temptations control my life, and I chose to ignore the good. I chose to be weak hearted and let worldly pleasures destroy me. The Father most certainly gave me strength through Jesus Christ, and his teachings has given me profound strength in my life. We Orthodox truly believe that suffering and going through what I did for example, is in many ways a gift from God. For it makes man holy to go through suffering, it makes man have love and humility in his heart. That’s a serious blessing. You contradict yourself, you claim God is the one who made me do evil things, but yet, when I mention the strength and courage I’ve gotten through God, you easily dismiss God for being the one to help me. It’s contradictory at its core, and lacks logical cohesion. Of course, I understand I chose to start doing good. I also think your broad parallels to other religions is dishonest and vague I’ve studied world religions in college at University of Michigan, while there may be some parallels it really isn’t the same.
What an incredible delivery guys. Incredible I say. I could have sworn I was listening to two of our best Christian apologists today! High theological IQ from you both👏🏼👏🏼 God continues to bless you both. 🙏
Is this new or just that there is a term for it now? Honestly have known lots of "cultural Christians" back when I was actually "in the church" some 20 years ago.
It's more like it used to be something really taboo back in the day. Nowadays it seems like it's more accepted, specially because a lot of religious institutions feel threatened so they are now kind of forced to try and welcome those people who don't really believe but want to play pretend.
"You don't really try on Nihilism so much as you take off the clothes and you're not wearing anything for a while." What a great description of nihilism, its the removing of the cultural/religious preconception of existence and finding/making it for yourself
It is more likely that the tree is evolving, producing new kinds of fruits. An apple can appear in multiple colors, textures, and flavors, but if someone asks, "What's that?", the quick answer would still be "Apple." One can adhere to a set of rules and values, striving to align with the morals Jesus represents, without necessarily believing the entire story. Speaking as a Jewish Spinozian/Nietzschean/stoic seeker, I also bet that not a single Jew was wearing a yarmulke 3000 years ago.
Except that in this particular case, Jesus actually demanded belief (faith - they are the same word in Greek). The gospel of John could not be more explicit, it states multiple times that the purpose of the whole piece is that you believe in Jesus and Jesus says that that's what you need to do repeatedly. "That all who believe may not perish". "No one comes to the Father except through me". Etc.
@@SeanusAurelius I understand your point, and you can see similar cases in other religions. The Jews demanded Samuel unite all tribes under one kingdom and find a king, so no one came to God except through Saul. From an unreligious perspective, this is a smart strategy. By telling people they must come to you first, you gain control over the chain that connects humanity to God. This is why Muhammad claimed to be the last true prophet, to gain power over that chain. The Old Testament opens with Genesis, telling two different creation stories. Which one should we believe? Or perhaps it's simply a good, nonliteral story. Maybe God wanted to share values, morals, and rules to help us become better people, and the best way to do that is by mixing parts of history with good storytelling.
The point of Christianity is that you are saved by faith, the thief being crucified performed no works and followed no specific morals of Jesus. Yet Jesus says he will go to heaven. These people and their fruit are closer to atheists or Jews than Christians.
@@yanivhadar4489 The morals Jesus taught isn't just to be "good" in this life, but to have a personal relationship with him and be with him forever in the next life though. And it's not about gaining power- many of the early Christians were persecuted and killed for being Christians. Even Jesus himself was tortured and crucified, and said his followers shouldn't be surprised if the world hates us for following him.
Having studied some major world religions I've found there there is much wisdom to be gained when looking for peace, equinimty, joy, acceptance of reality, life's value. But religion also makes absolute claims in the form of commands, rituals, demands, roles, etc. Can't we "tease out" the wisdom from these ancient traditions without accepting Iron Age social and truth claims?
@@taobaoexpert123 Interesting you should say. Wisdom doesn't seem to change over time. Mythological themes of heroism, love, redemption, origins...are common themes of all great literature. The paradoxical wisdom of strength in humility, loving unconditionally, losing self, is generally found in the great religions of the world. Problem? Good literature is hard to find.
I think a better question is why do those rituals arise if the only usefull part of the religion is its wisdom, and why do those rituals resemble eachother across all religions? can we truly be sure that all the spiritual side of all religions is false? and why is there such a strong movement that staunchly belives so if its obvious? For the longest time i was an agnostic, not religious, but humble enough that i didnt think i could be 100% sure religion was completely unfounded. It always baffled me how staunch atheists could exist, if youre guided by reason and logic, wouldnt you just act as if religion is false, becuase you havnt seen god or anything like that, without feeling the need to scream from the rooftops that its 100% false for sure? Atheism seems like a faith based system, like all religions, but at least religions have people who seem to honestly belive they have seen god in some vision, meanwhile atheism has no evidence for anything, yet the same conviction.
Alex isn’t a Christian mostly because his view of the good life is little to no suffering, and Christianity actually calls you to suffer. In fact God himself suffers, particularly through Jesus Christ. In the end that’s the issue. All the other arguments are a distraction from that fact. If Alex would see that the good life is not free or as little suffering as possible, he’d see.
Lul, the good old ''they choose to be atheist to live an easier life'' Nah, spirituality is effortless... on the other hand, education and science require actual hard work
I believe Alex is a brilliant young man, and he does his research. There's no question about that. I also have Faith an hope that there is a God, I believe in sight unseen faith by choice. I would go to Alex for the truth about scripture more so than I would any Christian today because they are so biased and many don't do their research and some Christians are rather mean to you when you question the Bible. Because if you question the Bible, you might get true answers, and they're afraid of that that's my take and my experience with overzealous Christians. I've learned more about the Bible outside of reading it myself from Alex, thank you, Alex for being a scholar of the Bible. Whether you know what or not you're doing God's work as far as I'm concerned, because. when you quote scripture and tell us about what it really says, it's wonderful. I appreciate you 100%.
@@RichardTavilla That is completely irrelevant. Even if I were to agree that the supernatural is real, it wouldn't change the fact that a lot of people that go to church are just pretending that they believe
They're delulu. There's no indication that Christianity is on the rise in the West and the decline is even accelerating in its last Western stronghold the US.
As a Christian, I am always glad to hear from an intelligent and honorable atheist like Alex O’Conner. I greatly appreciate this channel and the quality perspectives it offers. It does seem that in trying to address wisdom to help people navigate the modern world, a spiritual dimension is often neglected, and I know that is because Chris is not particularly in that world, but I would love to see him engage more with it. More quality perspectives from all sides willing to have a constructive conversation. I can see Paul Vanderklay being a Christian who would work well on this program.
Honorable? Are you kidding me. The way he paints God as a monster to his audience because of his fundamentalist and literalistic understanding of the OT. Did you watch the Dinesh debate and many others where he interprets Scripture literally? I don't know how many souls caved into atheism because of his fundamentalist approach on Scripture where he selectively cherry picks Scriptures and takes them out of context. Just curious why you name yourself boringbiblestudy. Maybe you too bought into his hermeneutics on Scripture.
@@Shawn-nq7dumy friend, until 5 minutes ago, Christians also believed that. The fact that apologists have had to sanitise the bible because it no longer aligns with modern morality is really the nail in the coffin of the claim that the bible offers any real foundation for an objective morality. And yes, I saw the dinesh debate, and just because Dinesh doesnt have an answer doesn't mean O'Connor is dishonourable. Just that his position doesn't have a great deal to offer. If that debate has lost souls, God should get better arguments
@@Shawn-nq7du When I say honorable, I mean that he is generally charitable towards other Christians and tries to represtent their views accurately. His attacks are towards the arguments and not towards people. What is your definition of honorable? Alex thinks God is evil because of the way he interprets the scriptures and his own value system? This makes him wrong. Can people not be honorable in representing their views while being wrong? I agree he misunderstands verses and misses context sometimes, but cherry picking would suggest he is intentionally doing so. Yes, he has likely led many people to atheism, and that sucks, but I'd rather have someone make good arguments for atheism that get people thinking carefully than sloppy, emotional, uncharitable arguments for atheism which get people caught in their emotions and a false sense of superiority over the Christian views that they never understand. Alex often explains the Christian perspective accurately before explaining why he thinks this is wrong. I'd much prefer two intelligent and charitable interlocutors debating a topic than two idiot blowhards, and I find Alex is someone who is respectful and intelligent who can challenge me without insulting me, so I find that honorable. I chose the name Boring Bible Study because I had been studying Numbers, the book of the Bible I thought was most boring, and found that it was actually kind of interesting when I looked into it more. I wanted an outlet for all the things I had learned, so I started a RUclips channel to post my thoughts. I thought Boring Bible Study might catch people’s attention which in your case proved true. In retrospect, I've learned how to access much better quality commentaries since my videos on Numbers, so I do not know that the work there holds up very well, but it was a good stepping stone to what I am doing now where I am teaching at church.
@@bbainter7880 Paul Vanderklay has that focus on cultural issues, a breadth of knowledge, and heart for helping people navigate tough issues and the modern world with nuance. I think he'd do great on this channel.
In the US I always feel like I’m being looked down a bit on (being a practicing Buddhist) whenever I’m in a Christian’s presence. Always a sense of arrogance. But maybe I’m mistaking a reflection of myself upon them,idk. But I did ask my brother, an orthodox Christian what he thinks about my faith & he said they think other faiths have a lot of good in them, of the highest sense, but ultimately the “Christian” god is above all. This naturally, puts a feeling of division & the sense of, my belief is wrong.
I have to acknowledge Alex, probably gives a better account of the difference between Islam and Christianity, than most other non-muslim podcasters. His understanding of Islam is still flawed but I have to say I'm very surprised by his understanding. He has clearly tried to research the topic in a more honest way than most. He has definitely earned my respect.
Jonathan Haidt’s book about how religion functions as a group cohesion force is compelling. Humans aren’t just individuals: we thrive in groups and communities, religious ones as well. It goes a long way to explaining why devout people who attend church live longer and are healthier in some respects than non-religious people. They are socially more active this way and are less depressed and nihilistic
Yeah as much as people dunk on religion. People often overlook the many studies that support the case that religion/religious people tend to be happier, have greater quality of social relationships, and live longer lives.
There are multiple missed points in the case of the captive taken in war and subsequently married. 1. Impulsive and irrational treatment of the woman is not allowed. She cannot simply be raped as often happens after battles. Time is given to restore rationality. He must not know her before the journey home, or before meeting his family, or before shaving her hair, ( at which point she is no longer a beautiful woman). Furthermore, she has time to mourn and the couple has time to get to know each other. Marriage provides her with a status as a wife and she gets to avoid starvation. If she goes free, she may go where she pleases. But I think the Hebrew culture was far superior to the surrounding cultures that she would likely be won over by the treatment mentioned above. But overall the above restrictions would make many come to their senses and not get married at all.
I’m so curious about what a cultural Christian’s honest answer would be to two questions: Firstly, how would you know when the time had come to try something else? And secondly, if you became convinced that Christianity was actually corrosive to civil cohesion, would you stop being a Christian? I think that these sorts of questions get at the main difference between theological and cultural Christians. And I have got to say that theological Christians come across as way more authentic - cultural Christianity seems focused entirely on the mundane world, and in that way it seems to be almost the opposite of a religion. A religion, at the end of the day, is about engaging with a part of reality that is ‘higher’ than the mundane world, and how this higher reality may have correspondingly ‘higher’ claims on you and offer correspondingly ‘higher’ benefits. Get rid of those higher things and I don’t know if you’ve really got a religion anymore - you’ve got a Noble Lie. I think that theological Christians should be cautious about cultural Christian. It may feel like the number of Christians is increasing, but when you eat empty calories you also feel like you’re getting full.
As an Orthodox Jew you probably have a point. Our religion is a religion of action. One that requires actions in all areas of ones life. So for us cultural religiously traditional Jews aren't problematic. If they take so many actions they usually wind up doing it for reasons of faith in the end. The problem with applying it to Christianity is that even in its most orthodox denominations it tends not to make demands over large areas of ones life. So in some areas the person lives a religious life and in Others he lives a secular live. As a result he tends to be vulnerabile to secular influence even when it's wrapped up in cultural Christianity.
As someone who grew up veeeery Christian, I would have viewed a “Cultural Christian” as someone coming in to influence and manipulate. Coming in under ulterior motives.
I have always understood "cultural" Christian to refer to someone who was raised in a Christian environment and is therefore influenced by Christian culture while not being an active believer. In that sense I've never considered it a choice to be made. Any more than any other element of cultural heritage.
I'm not sure what kind of answer you'd expect for that. The people who try to convert for cultural or political reasons are doing it purely because they don't think there's any better option to achieve their ideal type of society. The media puts on a show of disparaging Christianity, and when these people look at the "good old days" they notice a lot of it involved Christianity so they think that must be why it was good. That's the extent of their logic. Sooner or later, when they realize Christianity isn't going to help them realize their ideal society, some of them will abandon those ideals and go all-in on getting to live forever in Heaven and whatnot, and others will move on to some other ideology, probably more oriented to their goals.
@@zhugh9556 I agree with you. I am/was a Catholic who "married into" a Sunni Muslim family. None of us are hot-blooded "believers", but we do find it important to understand each others' history and culture (including why we say bad things about Protestants, and they say bad things about Shi'ites🙃).
I’ve been dreading watching this because I’m taking an Alex OConnor break. How can you be so sophisticated and so charitable and such a divergent thinker while also being pretty accurate about his historical knowledge. And then look over the fact that Hitler hated the Christian ethos, he locked up tons of Catholics and sent them to their deaths, especially the clergy, I don’t claim to know exactly what God Hitler prayed to, but the way he treated Christians doesn’t show that he was on their side. These atheist apologetics are exhausting 🥱.
He who says "Better to go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe... This fear he slavishly obeys... For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world... It is like a general informing his soliders that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained. Our errors are surely not so awfully solumn things. In a world where we are certain to incur them in spite of all our caution, a certain lightness of heart seems healthier than this excessive nervousness on their behalf. William James,
believing that Jesus Christ was the son of God, that he died and rose from the dead, repenting of your sins and asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior makes you a Christian. Then following the teachings of Jesus is your fruit that you are a follower. It doesn't mean you will be a perfect person never sinning again. But how good you are doesn't get you into heaven, even though it is a sign that you are trying to follow what Jesus said to do. Just liking some of the teachings of Jesus doesn't make you a Christian anymore than liking Chinese food and Kung fu makes you Chinese
I never thought Id come back to Christianity, I was convinced it was false. But the gospel's undeniable attachment to caring for the needy and oppressed actually brought me back.
But can you not be convinced of their good-heartedness while also demonstrating the same perceived good-heartedness without needing the framework of an organized religion? Cheers
@@XinwylFumudaiski Oh yes, but it seems we as humans sorta need that extra push. By and large. What I see is in these volunteer spaces, while there are a handful of people who do it without any religious or otherwise compelling motivation, even in the secular organizations with secular money, the people showing up to volunteer are overwhelmingly religiously motivated. A Christian has an extra voice in his head that he believes to be God that an atheist just simply doesn't have.
@@judegrindvoll8467 Moreso. I volunteer at my church every Monday night where we house the homeless and feed them and sit and talk with them and help them to feel human again, and the interfaith organization we work with helps them with clothing, transportation and employment. I look forward to the Monday nights more than I do Sundays. There's another church here that pooled all their money together and instead of building a super church, they bought an entire city block and built transitional housing for the homeless and recovering drug addicts. Still the same tiny little church, but they do SO MUCH good.
Great job, Chris, as usual. I've run into several people lately who told me that they were "christians". I would have never known if they hadn't told me first. Not sure what that means...except maybe that the bar is set pretty low.
I was a pothead, depressed, had a business I hated, my life was stress and emptiness.. God was with me even though I was not a Christian yet, I heard Him.. I met my now husband, then l gave my life to Jesus, had a beautiful baby boy and life is not easy but its full of meaning and content.. Jesus is the only way
Rise of Christian revival is better described as a fall of enlightenment: the period and principles responsible for the greatest improvement in quality of life ever.
No, not really. This view assumes atheism is the pinnacle of enlightenment. It isn’t. Plenty of religious minds contributed to the scientific revolution that led to the enlightenment era.
@@TheMrRelic And most of our physics understanding was contributed by an Alchemist. Yes I think astrology, alchemy, and applying agency to an supernatural world behind the scenes, are all quite against enlightenment (which is just the idea of checking one's and eachother's assumptions)
Let's all start saying prayers for Alex to become a Catholic. 🙏🙏🙏.Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you are humbled enough to be brought to your knees and realize there is a possibility that there is something outside yourself. It's early days for Ayaan,.There are so many layers to Christianity.
Great conversation. Here’s what the two trees in the garden mean as shown by the rest of the Bible: 1. “Knowledge” is more personal and experiential in the Bible’s use of the word (i.e. “Adam knew his wife and she conceived” Gen 4:1) 2. “Knowledge of Good and Evil” is synonymous with “wisdom” and having it is not in itself wrong. God has the knowledge, and commends Solomon for asking for it in 1 Kings 3. (It should be noted, Solomon never asks for “wisdom”, he asks to “know good and evil” and god says “I will do what you have asked and make you wise”) (see also Gen:3 “She saw the fruit, that it was delightful to the eyes and desirable to make one WISE”) 3. Knowledge of Good and Evil (Wisdom) is nescessary to fufil God’s to “rule” the earth and subdue it. Solomon asks God to “know good and evil” because he does not know how to rule. 4. The Tree of Life represents relationship-to/knowledge-of God. Jesus said in John 17 “This is ETERNAL LIFE , that they KNOW you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent into the world. 5. True wisdom is found in the knowledge-of/relationship-to God while wisdom found outside of him is counterfit. Paul prays for the Ephesians 1 when he prays that the Father “may give you the Spirit of WISDOM and of revelation in the KNOWLEDGE of him”. Proverbs puts it this way: The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM (Proverbs 9:10) Humans have the freedom given by God to choose where to source their wisdom; from God Himself (The Tree of Life) or independently from God (The Tree of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). Ultimately the choices are this: Either depend on God, or else be independent from Him. 6. Depending on the maker of life is to have life 7. Independence from the maker of life is death 8. God wants humans to have the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but they must receive it from Him. Read "Paralandra" by C.S. Lewis for a deeply philosophical and fictional re-rendering of this story.
We are spiritual beings that know oneness and unicity already and we come to the dualistic plane of earth to experience the universe more deeply. Adam and Eve CHOSE to leave unicity to come to duality. This is the tree of knowledge parable.
@PresidentKang90 Yeah, it's one of the major claims in the bible that has mountains of evidence against it. For a start, there's no evidence in our genetic data to suggest that our entire population came from two people 6000 years ago. Adam and Eve's existence is something that we can test/verify, but no one has been able to, so it's reasonable to say they never existed as described in the bible. Was there a couple named Adam and Eve that the story was attributed to? Maybe, but it definitely wasn't like the bible depiction
I just want to point out that conversion can be a process just like deconversion. When you deconvert or deconstruct your faith you start questioning one idea at a time instead of abandoning it all in one go. While many Christian faiths celebrate the once in a lifetime, born-again experience, nothing prevents you from moving to cultural christianity and from there to actual faith. That process can take multiple generations as well, maybe you never believe, but if you raise your children as christians they might end up being true believers.
Why would one want to go to the "actual faith" in the first place? Especially when they already have a decent life by having healthy pracises, just without the religious dogmatism?
@grannyannie2948 I was specifically talking about people who adopted healthy practices (long term monogamous relationship, forming communities, expressing gratitude and taking responsibility vs feeling entitled and always searching to blame someone). There are plenty of those, and I wouldn't describe them as a part of the hell hole; they are too busy living their life rather than being activists
I kind of understand culturally Christianity, the churches, songs , celebrations,rituals are really beautiful, you can enjoy it without believing in Christianity
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Here's the timestamps:
0:00 Are We Seeing a Christian Revival?
07:53 What’s Causing the Rise of Cultural Christianity?
18:46 Is it Possible to Choose to Believe in God?
23:48 Has Christianity Gone Too Soft?
38:49 Experience of Visiting the Vatican
43:49 Is the Rise in Religion Just a Conservative Movement?
57:59 Christianity as a Prophylactic Against Woke
1:05:33 Why Isn’t There an Islamic Revival?
1:15:31 The Gnostic Gospels
1:27:28 The Gnostic Version of Genesis
1:35:47 Why the Bible is Compiled As it is
1:42:13 Christianity’s Antidote to the Meaning Crisis
1:52:40 Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Debate With Dawkins
1:59:59 The Figureheads of the Christian Revival
2:06:44 Important Things Ignored by the Media
2:11:24 Where to Find Alex
God : "This last sin of despair is graver to me than all the other sins. Souls guilty of despair judge their misery greater than my mercy. (they are assuming Gods unforgiveness) The despair of Judas displeased me more and was more grave to my Son than was his betrayal of Him."
Evil spirits of despair and infirmity want to inflict souls & trick them into believing in an unforgiving God. No repentant person will be turned away from God
Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena - catholic mystic.
Last segment of clip - as per timestamp 16:34 from RUclips video “What the Exorcists shared: Demons Masking as gods." From the channel Armor of God: Spiritual Warfare
A Devout Client of Mary Shall Never Suffer the Loss of His Soul
There was a certain man who was religious in name only, but, wherever true religion was concerned, hard-hearted and careless.
He was, however, in the habit of praying to the Blessed Virgin and saying once everyday a hundred “Hail, Mary’s.” Coming near his end, he was caught away in an ecstasy, and devils charged him before the Great Judge seeking a sentence that would adjudge him to be theirs. God, therefore, knowing his manifold sins, said that he must be condemned.
Meantime the Blessed Virgin came offering schedules in which were contained all the “Hail Mary’s,” and begging her Son to allow him to receive a milder sentence. But the devils brought many books full of his sins. ‘The books on both sides were put into the scales, but the sins weighed most. Then the Blessed Virgin, seeing She was doing no good, earnestly besought her Son, saying:
“Remember, Beloved, that Thou didst receive of my substance, visible, tangible and sensible substance; give to me one drop of Thy blood shed for sinners in Thy passion.”
And he replied: “It is impossible to deny thee anything. Yet know that one drop of my blood weighs heavier than all the sins of the whole world. Receive therefore thy request.”
Receiving it, She placed it in the scales, and all those sins of the religious weighed against it as light as ashes.‘Then the devils departed in confusion, crying out and saying: “The Lady is too merciful to Christians; we fail as often as She comes to contend with us.”
And so the man’s spirit returned to his body, and on recovery he related the whole tale and became a true monk.
Taken From The Glories of Mary By Saint Alphonsus Liguori
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our Lady explains the Hail Mary to Saint Mechtilde of Helfta (1241-1298):
“My daughter, I want you to know that no one can please me more than by saying Rosary.
The salutation which the Most Adorable Trinity sent to me, and by which He raised me to the dignity of Mother of God.
By the word 'Ave' (which is the name Eve, Eva), I learned that in His infinite power God had preserved me from all sin and its misery, which the first woman had brought upon herself.
The name ‘Mary’ which means ‘Lady of Light’ shows that God has filled me with wisdom and light, like a shining star, to light up Heaven and Earth.
The words ‘full of grace’ remind me that the Holy Spirit has showered so many graces upon me that I am able to give these graces in abundance to those who ask for them through me as Mediatrix.
When people say the ‘Lord is with thee,’ they give to me again the indescribable joy that I received when the Eternal Word became incarnate in my womb.
When you say to me ‘blessed art thou among women,’ I praise Almighty God’s Divine mercy which raised me to this exalted level of happiness.
And at the words, ‘blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus,’ the whole of Heaven rejoices with me to see my Son Jesus Christ adored and glorified for having saved mankind.”
Just like Alex too he likes the fruits but hates the tree.
7:15 This guy alex is acting like an extraordinary smart person ever born on this planet... Alex were you there that time when that happen?? Can you tell me then what made these people to go away after Jesus had said something??? Dear alex the smartest guy please tell me what did Jesus said then that caused all these angry croud to turn away one by one?????
His confidence of something not seen not heard by himself shames himself.
Do you think alex these people carried a high-tech recorder to record everything????? Don't you know Alex that these are also humen beings?? Don't you know they started writing the Bible after a long time? Don't you know devine intervention was also there as well as human???
26:45 Alex you can't interpret or fram a religion based on what people do. That is silly to even think about. Do you depict and potray parents by what children are doing??? 😂😂😂😂😂
Two possibilities exist: either Alex becomes the greatest atheist of all time or the greatest Christian convert of all time. Both are equally terrifying.
Long money's on convert.
Neither. He'll be another atheist YTer. A good one, but that's it.
@@miketrotman9720 I agree; I think there's a chance he'll convert at some point. I've seen a few videos like this with him and I do think he's more open to Christianity than he used to be, at least as I see it. I've noticed him almost arguing in favour of Jesus/Christianity and then kind of "correcting" himself with a dismissal of the underlying principles
Atheist is the default position. As comprehension grows, the likelihood of converting grows. Christ already lives rent free in his head. He’s close.
He’s just a poser. I found him quite interesting in the past but now I find him utterly tiring. Just another boring vaccous engagement farmer.
I think people are just getting tired with how degenerate society has become. From music, media, life, everything is over seggualized, people are cold blooded, selfish, and glorify manipulating and treating people like trash, etc. People get tired of that and end up craving stability, safety, and morals.
Was about to write a comment to this effect but you put it perfectly.
Too scared of words to write sexualized correctly
@@matjaz5684 it's because of YT censoring, and out of respect for his channel.
Yes we have lost our compass
stability, safety and morals....religion isn't necessary to satiate these needs.
The fact that two atheists are having this much charity and nuance about religion answers the original question Chris posed.
You're spot on, I think. This is a very recent attitude towards Christianity among secularists.
@@Bornstella 🙏🏼
I bet that the Viking wannabe that is Rationality Rules is silently fuming at the "soft touch" his atheist bestie is giving to Christianity. Alex isnt too far off heretic status among the anti-theists. 😜
Yeah...he gives it loads in debates, I feel to try to stick it to the fundamentalist in the US but he rather cosys up to his Catholic and Anglican brothers on this side of the pond. 😎
@@Bornstella when trump has us in his evangelical theocracy, they’ll swing the other way. Just watch.
Lol good point
As a Christian I really enjoy listening to Alex articulate his views regarding religion & Christianity in particular. Gives me great insight on how to approach non believers and atheists.
Agreed. He is a respectful, articulate and intelligent non believer. He gets the value of the Good News, even if he lacks faith in it. That's how we draw them in. Come for the cultural Christianity, stay for the salvation.
Please don’t approach us we aren’t interested
@@Twittchyy Peace be with you
@@Twittchyy I will and you can't stop me. Lol
@@Twittchyy You approached
I never would have predicted that I'd be watching two atheist Brits talk about American Christianity on a Friday night, but here I am.
It's sad cuz most brits know next to nothing about what it's like living as an American. Let alone a Christian.
@@ACloudWithoutAirYeah, an Oxford theology-graduate knows next to nothing about Christianity
Is Chris specifically an atheist? I don’t remember him saying I know he isn’t religious
He said he was agnostic.
Now how do you feel that I am one of these people who were driven to question our current reality and by simple observation have come to fully believe in a guiding God hand, and that Jesus was correct. You too can just observe who is happy. Who is. Ot, who is prospering who is not.
All lies are being shown to be false, all narratives of man are falling apart.
These two gentlemen are having a cordial conversation about Cultural Christianity, and I'm here for it! Love it!
Your bromance with Alex is pretty entertaining to watch lol
I watch every podcast lol
It’s cringe and gay tbh
@@beansdestroyerhaving friends is cringe and gay what 💀
The whole interview should have ended with a kiss.
Fellas, is it gay to have friends?
I'm a Christian, and these are two of the most interesting people on the planet. I love both Chris and Alex's approach to these ideas. I hope they are a bridge for my generation for a higher value of ethics.
Check out Jay Dyer
I'd love that but I think fear still rules the decisions of most people and, even worse perhaps, people who are in denial that they are ruled by fear. Basically animals with weapons of mass destruction. But did Jesus not say, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness..." He did NOT say, "Blessed are those *who persecute others* because of righteousness..."
@@CartoonistDaveso you believe in a guy that is against the rights and freedoms you have today?
@@louisdeniau8571 dont believe in him, i believe in Jesus Christ. But Jay makes great content that defends and explains orthodoxy. What rights does he want to take away again?
Chris and Alex the most interesting people on the planet? You have my sympathies, sir 😂
Alex is so good at analyzing different phenonomens objectivly whitout giving his own view of it.
In his conversations I usually come away being more empathetic to both sides of the issue. (: I like it.
In my opinion, Alex's understanding of Jesus in Christianity as the Word becoming flesh and the Quran in Islam as the Word becoming a book is profoundly perceptive. I have never heard anyone make this kind of comparison before.
It is, but he took that from other scholars. It's a pretty common way to compare the two.
@@chellya2004 Wanting to be sure if you were right, I looked it up. Apparently, Kenneth Cragg, an Anglican bishop and scholar, in his 1956 book, "The Call of the Minaret," made this description of the two. Now I know.
@@stevesmith4901 Theodore Noldeke pointed to this distinction between the two religions 150 years ago. Scholastic philosopher Thomas Aquinas comes pretty close too,almost 800 years ago.
That’s not a point against Alex though, it just means he is well read and agrees with key thinkers throughout history. So he’s probably right on the point.
@@wessjr08 True, but if this had been an original observation by Alex, it would have been phenomenal. I was under the impression that it was. So, I'm just slightly disappointed, that's all. Regardless, Alex is still pretty insightful on religion.
I suspect that even when the pews were full, there was a significant percentage of Cultural Christians in them.
Although I was baptized Catholic, my family was atheistic during my youth. I've recently returned to the church last year and I can honestly say it's made me a better husband, father, and person. For me, the transformative moment was actually reading the bible and listening to homilies on the internet. At point I realized that I had trusted what my society pushed upon me, that religion was for 'naive people' or 'idiots'. It was after starting to delve into the material myself and experience it's teachings that I realized the truth; I was listening to other people's 'truths' rather than finding my own. I wasted decades of my life with meaninglessness because the mentors around me convinced me i didn't need religious meaning in my life, and I should absorb their ethics, or their meaning instead.
I forgive them, but I won't make the same mistakes again. Form your own opinions, read the words yourselves. Don't trust society to make the decisions for you. Even the educated may fall short in virtues.
Odd, I had the exact opposite experience: born and raised in a SUPER Catholic family, went faithfully to church every weekend for 27 years, and prayed to God and JC. I left my home town, went to college, moved outta state, started traveling the world, and moved to Europe all the while staying religious. Then came trump. I watched in absolute horror as the VAST majority of my "good Christian" family turned into a pack of hateful monsters who STILL worship the "God chosen" orange sociopath to this day. That cracked my religious foundation. I started to question it all. I started to read more into the history of the church and the very idea of religion itself. I thought logically and used reason to try to make sense of it all. Tried to understand how God could allow such an EVIL man to corrupt and brainwash my loved ones. I prayed A LOT. And at the end of it all, after 3 years of questioning, learning, praying, making the ultimatum to God and Jesus to simply reveal themselves to me as they both did MULTIPLE times in the Old and New Testaments, I finally let it all go. I finally realized that there simply is no god. There is no unseen mystical/magically/spirtiual power controlling the world around me. That was over 6 years ago and I have not had a single sign from God. Nothing. Been atheist ever since. On the bright side of it all, I have never felt more free and happy in my entire life! I am truly my own self. A massive weight has been lifted and I can look confidently at the world around me and truly uderstand how it works. Without any kind of god, everything makes sense. I have become a better man in the sense that I now look at all the problems of the world and instead of just dismissing them as "God's plan", I actually accept them and try to learn how and why they happen so that I can try to do my own personal little part in trying to fix them. I take on full responsibily for my actions in this ONE AND ONLY life without selfishly thinking that I don't need to care about this world because there's a better afterlife waiting for me. Ironically, I have become more "Christ-like" because I actually care and TAKE ACTION to help the poor, the neady, and the sick. People need to realize that they don't need religion to be a good person. We are our own beings.
@@TheAmericanAmerican
Thanks for replying, I'm glad you've found more happiness in your life. It's definitely an interesting notion, to have the two of us have similar epiphanies with opposing results.
For me, I think my advice isn't to be religious, or not- rather it's to make your own decisions rather than relying on the normal people prescribe for you without individual verification.
I don't think religion, or a lack of religion, makes any guarantee on people being good. People are inherently flawed, and religion doesn't remove the propensity of people to hate. Lack of religion doesn't either. I certainly didn't read any prescriptions to hate in the new testament, but people can interpret things a variety of ways.
The history of the church is rife with the same class of mistakes. If people are imperfect, so are religious institutions (and all institutions for that matter.) My belief is that our past shouldn't necessarily dictate the totality of how our existence is defined. Humans will make mistakes and do evils, so will human institutions, but this doesn't imply an incapability to do good, or more good than evil. It does imply that humans and organizations need to continually analyze what they're doing from external perspectives in order to minimize the evil they commit.
I don't believe people require religion to be good. My wife, for example, is agnostic; but I believe her to be a very good person. My hope isn't that all become religious, but I also hope people don't purposefully devalue religion and hope for others to lose that value set in their life, when it's done them good. Not everyone has the same value sets, not everyone has the same perspective. There is a set of people for which religion has done harm to their life, and there is a set of people for which the absence of religion has done harm in their life. It's hard to find universal outcomes with regard to humans.
My hope is people make their own decisions, rather than trust the opinions already formed by those around them. In my case, the opinion pushed on me was that religious people are dumb and naive. I never read anything since my return to the church that gave me any sense of causality between stupidity and faith. In your case it sounds like the opinion was that religion is required to be good and things were the result of gods plan and may not merit an attempt at comprehension or action. You've come to your own conclusions about the truth of that opinion, rather than trust it, and it's led to your happiness.
Even if our outcomes are the same, I think the values ascribed to our happiness are the same; form your own opinions and find your own happiness.
It's a if the bible's accurate and the great tribulation, is coming,
even naturalists, like Alex will likely soon be on board with christian morality.
That's how stark the difference between good and bad is going to become.
You have seemed to conflate faith and politics in much the same way that you accuse your family of. If Trump is uniquely evil in your mind (the Devil if you will) and a messianic figure to your family, you are both making the same mistake. Voting for Trump doesn’t make you evil, irreligious or an heretic any more than voting Biden does. Politics isn’t God.
@@TheAmericanAmerican, I am just interested to know what terrible beliefs your family had that drove you away from the Catholic faith?
Alex and Christ are a great double act. Sniping at each other and smiling as they enjoy the joust. Both are genuine people striving to gain the truth. Their discussion is both edifying and entertaining.
Did you mean Chris or Christ? 😂
@@coreyjury6587😅
They do seem interested in truth, such a rare quality these days. What if Jesus was right, "The truth will set you free", but so many of us would much rather be comfortable, and some even love the comfort so much they willing to kill for it. Maybe, truly "narrow is the path…"?
@@coreyjury6587 I missed that. The spell corrector in YT is appalling. Thanks.
You mean Chris not Christ right? Though both might be true… 😮
Alex O'Connor, already one of the greats.
Lol, no.
Yeah I think he’s well read but doesn’t have a lot to add to anything.
@@CriticalDispatches you’re just mad because you are make-believe friends don’t exist 😂
🤡🤡🤡
🤣
I’m just a common cleaner and shop worker but I’ve definately felt a revival of REAL Christianity in the UK. I’m a catechumen in the Eastern Orthodox Church and looking forward to being baptised.
Glory to God ☦️
Glory to God!
These guys should also try Eastern Orthodoxy. The shock about "all this Jesus thing is just a spectacle" would probably vanish, if they witnessed a vigil in a monastery.
God bless you brother
Because its a shorthand way of saying, "I'm atheist for all practical purposes, but I still acknowledge that as a society we have to work together on solving our communal problems, and as a general rule, I tend to rely on what might broadly be called 'christian' values."
Please have Alex on quarterly AT LEAST. I love all your conversations with him!
folks are converting from shia islam to Christianity in iran and as a newly converted christian i enjoyed this massively and i gotta say both of you are close 😄
Why does shia does not cut the mustard seeds anymore for them?
Honestly , Shia are not Muslim. There is no following one the Quran.
So I would not consider them Muslim I would rather refer to them as Christianity 2.0. As they worship religious figures which are not god.
@@aks1521 Can you prove that God exists by chance?
@@goarmysleepinthemud. I don’t understand the question.
I can only share what I believe.
My belief in a creator is due to the beautiful designs of animals and different/distinct beautiful designs of humans and many things that suggests to me that we are designed but not by chance.
I believe life is a test so that is why there is evil and good.
These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation.
1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**:
- "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided."
2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**:
- "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination."
3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**:
- "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars."
4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**:
- "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving."
5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**:
- "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation.
1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**:
- "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided."
2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**:
- "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination."
3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**:
- "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars."
4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**:
- "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving."
5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**:
- "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
After speaking to numerous people over the years about Christ, I’m coming around to the fact that, while the mind has to be engaged, it’s really the state of the heart that I now look for. I think that’s the fundamental lesson of the parable of the Sower and the Seed.
The lesson right after the parable is that Jesus speaks in parables for the explicit purpose of people having a hard time understanding him my dude.
The idea of parables is to make the words palatable. If yoi say to a person "go to the gym", they will tell you to go take a walk. If you take 5 minutes to beautifully engage with them about health and whatnot, way bigger chance of getting them into a gym
@@newme1589 Not according yo Jesus.
@newme1589, Only to those who understand the “language” of the Scriptures. Once you do understand it, it opens up worlds of depth of meaning. “But to those outside, everything else is in parables” Mark 4:11.
It would be interesting to see Chris Williamson talk to someone like Father Mike Schmitz.
Definitely
That would be almost uncomfortably based in the best way possible
💯
Bishop Barron would be amazing.
Bishop Barron!
I was raised very Christian but it has lapsed in adulthood, and I have found a more religious experience in the study of history, philosophy, and literature. I have a soft spot for religions in that I find them to be fascinating, and part of the reason I enjoy conversations featuring Alex O'Connor is because I can relate to one being compelled to study religion without accepting them as fact. I don't wish to be governed by religious law, and just the same as I would be against any form of legislating religion for the masses, I will also always be in favor of the freedom to worship and believe as one sees fit. Thanks for the great conversation, Chris.
I’m talking as a Christian and Christianity was never meant to be a governing rule or law. Jesus even said that: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s” or when He said: “My sovereignty is not of this world.”
@@BroJo676of course it was. That's the sole point of religion. Especially monotheistic ones. From your own version of the supernatural, tell me about the doctrine of 2 swords in the garden of Gethsemane.
You've used the term religion and religious multiple times and I get the impression they have slightly different meanings depending on the context. What do YOU mean by religion and religious?
@@guywilletts2804 History also shows quite the contrary to what you’re saying. Christianity became a major religion from the moment on which it became the state religion of the Roman Empire back in 380 through the Edict of Thessaloniki. Before that, even when Christianity no longer was forbidden in the Roman Empire, all the Roman rulers, from the very first August to the very last in 376, were required to also act as the Roman religious leader aka Pontifex Maximus (the Greatest Priest in Latin). The Christianity adoption put an end to that because it’s legitimately understood that Jesus was not searching for and uninterested in gaining some form of political power.
Now, I’m not denying there could be some influence from religious institutions but the absolute power never belonged to the Church and history clearly shows it.
I need it but I don't believe it.. I'm in denial lol
Thanks Chris. Now the image of you being the “middle of the human centipede” between Alex and Sam is forever burned into my memory.
god i love alex i could listen to him to talk all day
Alex's portrait of Christianity is refreshing! Knowledgeable & Historically employable 🙏Good show Chris 👍
I do agree that many of these so called "Christians" do not walk like one. Always lean to their own understanding and never open their mind and/or ears to others because they think what they think it is true and absolute. Not only what they think, but their knowledge is that of a child; Surface level understanding, and they take these surface level understanding as absolute truth without exploring.
It's more because they don't care nor find the need to. They just like to play pretend to be part of the group.
Good stuff Chris.
In the last three you went from AI to Chaos theory, to a conversation about Christianity. Always surprised by the your breadth of topics.
Keep it coming.
Such diversity!
May God draw them both to the love of Jesus. I became a Christian at 24 over 30 years ago, and I can't imagine life without Him. I was hopeless and purposeless, but the cross broke through my stubborn, sinful heart. He is the Blessed Savior! ❤❤❤ And life only got better and richer, and it still does. The legacy of abuse and addiction and divorce that I knew ended with me; my marriage is strong, and our children's marriages are on solid ground as they all walk with the Lord. It's not easy. It is beautiful. My joy comes from Him regardless of the sorrows and hard circumstances that come. I praise Him in the sunshine and in the rain, and I'm never alone.
Christian revival is somewhat to do with a fight back against Islam, or taking a cultural side.
It’s atheists realizing Islam has a huge growth and wanting to make Christianity rival Islam. Choosing teams basically. But how would that help Christian’s when fake Christian’s join while Islam requires actual thought and dedication to chose Islam. Islam will continue to grow the more people open their eyes
@@abdiahmed1371 The thing is that cultural Christianity cannot help actual believers regardless of how much they engage in wishful thinking. The moment the trans-ideology and wokism go down (assuming they will, which I am not sure about) the old things that drove people away from Christianity in the first place (the stance on homosexuality & abortion, purity culture, mental gymnastics to justify biblical claims etc.,) will cause all those self-proclaimed cultural Christians to move away as quickly as they joined. And yes, Islam will continue to grow as long as countries don't change their immigration policies and don't adopt integration-first approach. I doubt that this will happen as such stance requires the acknowledgment that cultures are not equal.
@@three_owl_night I agree with all that u said except Islam will continue to grow whether immigration/integration is managed or not. The reason why is because Islam teaches that devotion and morals is for God and from God. Everything a Muslim does is with the belief that God will judge them on it and will either reward them or punish them and that this life that last less than a 100 years is not greater than the next life that last forever. Paradise is worth the struggle and is motivation to do good in this life so that you live there best life in the next
Not in the US. In the US, immigration makes us more Christian, not less.
You seem to be ignoring the quiet irreligiosity growing amongst muslims, particularly younger muslims.
Best moment was Alex saying he was a cultural gym bro lol
The most relevant "Will of the Father" is for us to return to Him. While returning to Him, we are embodying Him, and we resemble as much as possible with Him in mercy, in kindness, in forgiveness, in divine love, in the self sacrifice for the lost ones to return as the sons and daughters to their Maker.
The fact that Alex delves so deep into the Gnostic texts is extraordinary. The more he talks about the Gnostics and their conception of the universe, and reality as a whole, the more it feels like Buddhist Cosmology: Samsara, de realm of birth and death, is to be seen as a prison. A place - and a process, at that - where you are 'locked in', 'enslaved' by your own craving and clinging, which originates fundamentally from ignorance - that is, we see existence in the wrong terms, and therefore keep running around and around, chasing our tails, going up and down, up and down, eternally, until we find a way out. The way out is to destroy that very ignorance. There is no other way. And the way to end ignorance is the Eightfold Path, which leads you to the Truth of nirvana and liberation.
We have a remarkable parallel on that aspect in the Gospel of John (which seems to be focused on liberation):
So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
See:
'You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free'.
Well, 'What is truth?' Pilate asks him later, but gives him no time to answer.
Christians insist on repeating the words of Jesus, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life'. Great. What does that mean? How do you apply that to your life, to your cognition, to how you see and interpret the world as a whole? How does THAT free you from being enslaved to sin and ignorance, because sin can only be born out of ignorance? What is a Christian supposed to DO in this world, instead of waiting passively for the Second Coming while the world turns to ash?
There is a lot to unpack here, because the more you look at it, the more it seems that immense parts of Christian Cosmology have been erased and/or hidden, as if to intentionally make things more difficult and obscure. Maybe because the Powers That Be don't WANT you to be liberated.
Agree there are some fascinating parallels between Gnostic cosmology and Hindu philosophy too. Such a Barbarello the female aspect who is something like Adi Shakti.
To me stuff like this is the biggest argument against religion being a biological bug that helps us build societies. The level of specificity and wierdness to these traditions goes far beyond ''we dreamed of a bearded guy in the clouds that tells us to be good to eachother or he will punish us''. Its so specific, wierd, and consistent across different parts of the world, it has to be real in some capacity
Harmony between order and chaos within oneself will project itself into the physical world.
Life without religion is scary, many people just aren’t capable of handling it
How ?
I was never scared of life
Scary? The safest countries on the planet are completely secular... it's religion that makes countries scary
It's true that nihilism is bleak in many ways, and can be difficult to accept. But once accepted it works out fine.
@@dodumichalcevskiI think it’s death/finality and the meaninglessness that scares people
@@travist2339
Yeah but doenst make it true 🤷
Great call Chris. Love your style and choice of guests. I have been watching Alex since he was a young person. He is a gifted speaker and a wise and gentle conversationalist who seems to leave his ego at home every time he comes out to play. This may be my favourite of all of his conversations. And we have you to thank. Cheers.
I would describe myself as a cultural Christian. Being bought up in a Christian society, with its culture and values, obviously leaves an imprint on you. It is very familiar and comforting, not necessarily in any spiritual way though. My brain cannot except, anything that is not grounded in reality. It’s just the way it works.
It doesn’t stop me appreciating Christian values and its long cultural history. The beautiful churches and cathedrals and amazing coral music. It is all part of my heritage. I believe it’s definitely worth fighting for.
God is as real as it gets, my bro. Do you think atoms spontaneously appeared and randomly collided till we have humans with eyes and brains with consciousness? Intelligent design is obvious.
@@patrick9445 If God has the power to create the universe and all life, why children with cancer my bro?
@@patrick9445 that's a nice straw man of naturalism.
@@Maxfox11 Search 'Apologetics' on RUclips. There are many eloquent answers to that question.
A common view is that life is a very short test and suffering is part of existence for all people before we spend eternity in bliss. That is an excellent deal on balance.
During our time on Earth, man has free will and he is free to make life awful for other people. Additionally, as mortal beings, we will all get sick, suffer and die. This will happen at different times for different people for different reasons. Cancer as a child. Parkinson's at 80. Christians don't pretend to know why people die. We just try to accept it and appreciate the time we have.
Having gratitude for life and stoic acceptance of suffering are just some of the gifts that come from Christianity.
@@Maxfox11 Cancer comes from the toxic environment and stress (food etc.) caused by humans. We have been given a freedom of choice. There are things we can do to help people. Some peopIe choose to not care. Do you, help kids with cancer?
l've experienced tumors myseIf, but have aIso heaIed. l came to reaIize that my body did the exact correct thing in moving the toxins into the tumors, when it just couIdn't do aII the work in removing the toxins, because of my own unheaIthy IifestyIes and choices. The stress was a huge part of the cause, but it got greatIy aIIeviated with prayer. Because with faith l dropped the urgent need to stressfully controI everything and everyone around me. And then my tumor started to shrink.
Chris,
I watched a Christian testimony from Isaiah Saldivar yesterday that was very impactful, and I think it would be so cool to listen to you interview him (a fully convinced Christian).
Also John Burke who wrote a book about near death experiences and people who’ve encountered Jesus through that (even atheists and followers of other religions).
Thanks for the great conversations!
Isaiah teaches a false gospel. All the deliverance ministries are deceiving people. Revealing Truth youtube channel shows many examples of Isaiah's false teachings.
No such thing as a convinced Christian
@@undiscoveredstars1002 okay then a real Christian
Two of my favourite people, speaking on one of my favourite subjects. ❤
Love the unedited intro!
Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they are one. That is why Jesus said 'you will know them by their fruit'. As a Christian, I should not act, look, or talk like the rest of the world. If I do, follow brethren should be concerned for me.
We no longer buy that excuse. Just admit what we already know about such an aweful self-righteous people.
In your photo, you look pretty much like the rest of us. I can't imagine how you can hope to spread your "message" if you doggedly refuse to "act, look, or talk like the rest of the world".
Amen! My grandson, at age 13, claimed to be an atheist. His father is a professor at an Ivy League where quite a few of the students are atheists, and they live on campus. I think he thought it was cool and made him look smarter. Now, at 15, he has softened a bit. When they visited me at Christmas, he offered to go to Church with me, which was a surprise. When he came home, he told his parents that Christians are nicer people than his atheist friends, and then he told them I think I want to marry a Christian girl. What a delight to hear.
One of the top scientists in the U.S., Dr. Francis Collins, was an atheist. He has a PhD in chemistry from Yale and then decided to get an M.D. He was the director of NIH and worked under three presidents. He was the lead scientist of the Human Genome Project, which saved millions of people. After noticing his religious patients lived better, were healthier, and handled serious illness better, he looked into Christianity at the advice of his patient. He became a Christian and has written several books on God. I love his book, "A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, The Language of God." He takes it from a scientific viewpoint why belief in God is reasonable and why the Christian God makes sense.
@@tomcoop9750 Christians are often on the deserving end of criticism
@@petretepner8027 If I'm kind while others are rude, loving to those with hate, longsuffering in times of trial..all because I have HIS love. This speaks volumes.
There are times when I feel like atheists, being on the outside, understand Christianity better than we who practice. Alex's comments on the scandal of the cross were so spot on. And even Dawkins, there was one interview where someone asked him what it would mean if God were proven by science, he stopped dead, and just the look on his face. He told the reporter deadpan, "It would be the most important discovery in the history of mankind." And he was stonefaced about it. It gave me chills, man. In some negative converse way, these guys understand what it means to believe in God more than most of us who are practicing. And that's probably why they don't - they recognize what it would mean if they did. And that's a kind of belief in a way.
Australia is not what I would consider a particularly religious country. But the revelation that Australia had its first openly atheist prime minister in the 2010s was a very big deal. Very interesting to read back on that
Fellow Australian, we are actually more Christian then you think. 30% of parents and rising use fee charging Christian schools. Christianity is still the majority religion at about 50%, in the UK it is a minority. Was it Kevin Rudd?
@@grannyannie2948that’s a shame
@@undiscoveredstars1002 Why?
As an aussie we aren’t super religious in fact out of all my religious friends I only know one that follows it😂
@@Chicky1234-m3f We are not big church goers. But it's rare to meet an Australian who is completely atheist with no spiritual beliefs. I babysit after school, and the state of the government schools is so bad, most children are very devout, because they go to Christian schools. As for the far right, which I think was the topic of conversation, it is true, because we have freedom of religion in Australia, but we don't have freedom of speech.
The pendulum inevitably swings
And the masses are always amazed when they arent used to it swinging
but there is a reason for said swinging. it doesnt just occur
@@harrywatson2694 yes, cause and effect, amazing
The rise to Christ and Islamism in the west will push the minority atheist movement off the cliff
Atheism is not a pendulum, it’s an anomaly in history that has utterly failed. The people have awoken to the realization that with the removal of God from society, the downfall of society simultaneously occurs because they are inextricably linked, and more importantly it is a false belief. It now faces disintegration, for it offers society nothing but lies and ruin. The future is Theist. ❤
What an unbelievably interesting conversation.
Edit; will have to revisit this, so much value and I've found myself with a great admiration of Alex and will be exploring his thoughts more, thanks again.
From my viewing of the Ayaan-Dawkins discussion, she didn't clearly answer whether or not she believed in the tree. The impression I got was that she doesn't, and only chooses in the sense that I choose to pretend that the characters in my favorite show are real so that I can get into the show and it makes the show more fun, but I, of course, know that they are not.
Alex needs to debate John Lennox.
That would be watchable.
I love the chemistry between these two - it’s easy to see they’re good friends.
Also in Deuteronomy 21:14 "But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her." Around time stamp 1:02:00 Alex mentions the Captures of war.
Thankfully Christians believe in the new covenant and would consider the Old Testament non moral laws as for a specific time in the past, given in a corrupt culture.
One can be a follower of Jesus and yet not affirm that all the Old Testament laws came from God word for word. Much of it reflects the authors of that time’s views.
The likes of Pete Enns and Gregory Boyd are good writers to go to on the trouble of the Old Testament. Also, you can read Origen of Alexandria in the early church work’s who said that Christians should take a deeper, spiritual understanding of all scripture and where possible a literal understanding.
What point are you trying to make? He was talking about you enslaving her and your point is that you wouldn't be allowed to resell her? Your bored with her so let her go is a good moral thing?
@@mmoreno7137
Full quote:
"When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her."
This passage talks about a situation when you found a woman who you like and how to properly treat her.
Its aparent to me that while this isnt good for our modern day morals its incredibly progressive for the time, you can say that christianity isnt essentially moral and good because it allows bad things, but it seems to me it always allows a less bad flavour of bad. If the only times slavery is brought up the prhasing is ''you can own people, but dont mistreat them'' its clear that the underlying message is morally good, its just constrained by its time
I was surprised he brought this up to be honest given how good he'd been elsewhere in this conversation. Deuteronomy is a book from the Old Testament, while all of the universalising tendencies Tom Holland brings up are really located in the New Testament. There are tons of things in the OT that are considered obsolete or no longer binding. Christians eat pork!
Happy to come on any time Chris!
That would be an epic interview. I hope it happens.
I'm not an emotional person and when I hear the music come on I zone out for the whole worship time. Everyone is typically really into the music and have their hands raised, we are known for our band. However, when the scripture is read I always get goosebumps and get the feels ..
Everyone likes a fairytale
Instead the “sacred” as what draws people to religion across time, I think it’s better clarified as what provides **hope and order**. Coming from a extremely religious and also academically religious background, I have heard this insinuated and spoken explicitly countless times. People have trouble letting go of their religion (or questioning their religion at all) because it is the ultimate fallback hope to acute and general mundane suffering in life. It orders the chaos and puts a light at the end of the tunnel. That is the draw to religion more than anything else about beauty and love, although those play into the same theme.
Believed by its adherents, religion specifically secures a final hope/resolution and *enough* current order. However, it just does a poor job of inviting *everyone* to a path of spiritual transformation. Religion seems to be inherently sectarian and gated-group-forming. I would suggest precisely because it has to determine ultimate value/categorize humans in kind of a binary “are you in or are you out with God/heaven” kind of way. When that is the final stakes / dichotomy, religion will be sectarian. And an open-source spiritual path will be thought of as “secondary” or will be heavily devalued. I think today we are seeing the results of massive nominal-only Christianity and the desire for more real spiritual transformation/Aka fruits. Religion, if keeping ultimate binary stakes, cannot provide this. It will always devolve into a mechanistic belief system to secure hope.
I honesty think people prefer a sense of “guaranteed hope/order” over the real ambiguity of pursuing the spiritual path open to everyone and anyone.
Agreed. Well worded. People have tried finding solace in the logic of new atheism but like all movements, it was destined to have a deadline to its popularity. It alienated a lot of people and the pendulum is swinging back to a mean position and in some parts of the world, to the other extreme as well.
@@alinachrist8416 for sure. I think there is a spacious meeting ground for all of us. Assuming there will be a perfectly harmonious future one day can also mislead us. Peace and love are a means, not an eventual end. Aka I don’t think unity=final same thinking for everyone, but unity= an effort to collaborate despite not thinking the same. Our diversity/collaboration, once you accept it’s gonna always be that way, is actually pretty fun! :)
That is very well articulated. My husbands side of the family is very religious, and all their testimonies share those elements you mentioned; some of them are obvious and on the surface, others are less articulated but still clearly observable from someone on the outside like myself. The obvious ones are the hope of salvation (eternal life after death which makes everything that happens in life bearable) and knowledge that everything is God's will (which is order, regardless of whether one likes that order or not). The less obvious one is the in/out group dynamics.
Man, I love Alex O'connor.
Alex is brilliant. I am a Christian and like listening to him.
As a Christian, brought up in a Christion home in the UK, back in the 80's and 90's and being more or less bullied for my beliefs at school, it blows my mind to hear two people who are so well known and who barely believe in God, talk for 2 hours about the rise of Christianity. It's quite heart warming really. I have been a part of a number of different churches through my life, of all different styles and varieties and I have definitely seen a "change in the wind" as it were. I feel like culturally the west went through a phase of turning away from God, thinking that it was just infantile and that science rules the day and we should be able to live how we like and "you do you, man"....but we are now seeing how that has just caused the moral fabric to fall apart and I think people are starting to realise things don't really go very well when we try to do things our own way. It feels like people are starting to think "maybe there is something to this Christianity thing". I know church attendance has been declining in the West for a long time, but I feel like things are bottoming out now and the tide is beginning to turn. My personal experience has been that while the stablished traditional churches have been dying out, a new generation of churches has been growing up in their place, with a fresh take on things stylistically, but still sticking to the core beliefs of the gospel. It will be interesting to see how things pan out.
I’m a Christian. It is definitely a choice to believe. I think biblically it is meant to be a choice.
There are many reasons I choose to believe, and it’s in the convergence of these reasons that it really becomes pretty easy to have faith, but it took me many years to get to this point.
One reason that’s often overlooked but is indirectly touched upon in this conversation is the truth found in “goodness.”
When I test the way of Jesus in my life it’s always just good. For example, if I have an argument with my wife, and I surrender it to God and think how would God want me to react and treat her… boom it’s always good. I let my pride and resentment guide me… it’s always bad.
This is just one example. But true in literally every aspect of my life. It’s basically become a law of nature to me. It’s good therefore it’s true.
“God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.”
Why don't you try and choose to believe allah split the moon.
Truth, beauty, and goodness, the three transcendentals, lead many to God.
I don't understand how you find it a choice to believe. Can you believe there is no gravity? Can you go up a very tall tower and decide that you can fly?
It sounds you’re choosing to believe the good stuff in the Bible and maybe choosing to ignore some of the not-so-good stuff. Which is fine, those are the best kinds of Christians.
@@markallen8022because the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven; it’s a choice each of us has to make, and reasonable minds can and have disagreed.
1:12:05 A Muslim friend I met at work essentially told me the same thing in as many words. It was very helpful in understanding their perspectives better as I was ignorant beforehand.
I have a question,
in christianity can free will,
exist independently from the devil?
or the devil must exist to make free will possible?
Around 11:24 more I realize that Alex forgets the entire Eastern philosophy and "religion" like daoism and zen. No need to appeal to an "other" or "sacred" outside, the sacred, for we are and all is sacred and profane at the same time. Everything just is. It's very liberating and what the seekers in the west need to hear.
You are wrong...
He knows that Eastern Philosophy of "finding God inside yourself" is one of the worst possible Philosophical ideas.
Love the God inside yourself is to Love yourself. Finding Peace inside you is to ignore all those who need help outside you.
You can understand it better from a Slavoj Zizek book called "Christian Atheism".
PS: There are many Christian books better than this one, criticizing Buddhism for example, but I am not going to recommend it.... I know you wouldn't read them just because they are Christian books .... Better recommend a Left wing Atheist book to explain what I am trying to say.
@@alextyze I can appreciate your comment. Not sure you understand eastern concepts well but you had limited space to explain. It's not about finding god within yourself or to love yourself, and if it was that would still not negate helping others suffering. It's difficult to liberate others from suffering if you are suffering yourself internally. I was a Christian for over 30 years and spent 7 years of it in a theological seminary. Most likely a lot of what you've read and found helpful I might have read or approached from a different writer or perspective. Nevertheless, I still hold that Alex' discussions will be greater once he begins to look at and incorporate more eastern approaches but his audience, like yourself, likely would find it to different an environment to comprehend and incorporate easily.
How can you be both sacred and profane at the same time? To be sacred it to be set apart for a specific purpose. It's impossible to be set apart and also adulterated with that which is NOT sacred.
why do you call them things
sacred and profane if they are the same?
@@corygiesbrecht9133I wouldn't necessarily say that it's because the environment would be too different to comprehend (though it may be part of it). But it's mostly about relevance, most of his audience is not interested in eastern religion which is why he doesn't talk about it much.
One of your best convos yet, Chris. I am a Christian and a pastor (yep, a megachurch pastor), and I loved this conversation. Great job being charitable with views you don't agree with. Alex, super fair representation of Christianity overall. Thanks for that.
Chris, I have great respect that you tried out a church on Easter. Well done! It might help to think of the rock band, pyrotechnics, and LED wall as modern packaging on the ancient message of the Gospel.
The Gnostic discussion was super interesting, though Gnosticism, as a philosophy, wasn't really developed till well after the NT era, and it glommed onto everything (Judaism, Christianity, even the Greek/Roman pantheon).
Alex, when you say to "flip open the Old Testament" and see what you find (as an illustration of Judeo-Christian values), perhaps what you find is the chaos of a society or people that rejects Judeo-Christian values that the Bible actually endorses.
One thing to dig into more would be the meaning of the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus. What does the New Testament (and Old) say about the meaning of those things? It's worth checking into. Keep following after truth... it's the one journey to never give up on.
Chris, earlier in the comments, Justin Brierley offered himself to be interviewed by you... look him up. He's very well-known and extremely knowledgeable. That would be top-class interview and would draw one of your largest audiences ever. You'd really like him, too. Thanks again for a fascinating conversation.
Jesus was gay
Mega church’s are money siphons for poor people
I follow the way(you would call me Christian) . Alex takes an approach to discussing the impact, critiquing the areas that don’t add up, and fearlessly holding everyone to account (better had done your homework when you sit down to have a discussion with Alex), is so refreshing as a follower of the “way, the truth, the life”. Thank you Alex, I’ve grown in my understanding and perspective listening to you.
Chris needs to bring Bishop Barron on!
Yes! He will clear up a lot of Catholic misconceptions quite nicely
I hope not. I actually enjoy these podcasts and would like to continue doing so. (A bit facetious and Chris can obviously bring on whoever he wants but it wouldn’t be an episode I’d watch)
Yes
The respect these 2 have for another is off the charts! ❤
Alex knows (and understands!) the Scriptures better than > 99% of all Christians. As I listened more and more, this verse (and we know you this verse, Alex 😊) kept coming to mind:
"And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, 'You are not far from the kingdom of God.' " (Mark 12:34)
🙏
1:57:23
"Now I've got to overcome some of the objections to the Resurrection [before I can believe]."
I'm sure others have likely already steered you (Alex) towards the works of Dr. Gary Habermas (likely the best Christian authority on the Resurrection)-- but if you were to read his massive two-volume work:
• 'On the Resurrection, Vol. I: Evidences' (1,072 pgs)
• 'On the Resurrection, Vol. II: Refutations' (896 pgs)
...Many of us would be thrilled to see you engage and discuss the subject with Dr. Habermas.
Just a thought...
I agree to a point, I was raised Christian and became an agnostic in part because of Dawkins and Hitchens. The argument was always you can me moral without subscribing to Christianity but does seem like the last decade that the atheist movement ostracizes anyone that doesn’t subscribe to a more progressive ideology politically. Think Hitchens would be considered a bigot by many in the atheist sphere and possibly critiqued because he had friends who were Christian
Doesn’t seem like that to me tbf
I recoil automatically as soon as a ‘movement’ starts to feel like a dogma…. And I suspect Hitchens would have too.
I don’t get why people are blaming the new atheists for all the progressive ideologies. Seems more a product of postmodernism
By progressive do you mean let the gays be? Or healthcare is a right not a privilege? Or something else?
I feel that the cause and effect is the other way around. People will rationally change their belief based on what they see is more convenient to act on, and very few people actually have the meta-cognitive ability to see what they are doing. I think that the reality hits first before beliefs, not the other way around. People are blindly following this cult of ridiculous progressiveness not because they decided not to believe in Christianity but because what they want in their life is against the teaching of Christianity.
I see them as "atheist by convenience". And I actually do not like these progressive political ideologies, despite being an atheist myself. I'm an atheist not because it's convenient for me, but because I think it's just the right answer. Political ideologies has nothing to do with my reason for being atheist. And people who are, in my opinion, is just an opportunist than anything else.
Thank you Alex for confirming why the nonsense Gospel of Thomas is not in the Bible.
They’re all nonsense though…
There is something refreshing about Alex's approach.
As a Muslim, I was astounded by his true knowledge about Islam. This man can make a podcast on Islam too at this point.
Though I believe his beliefs are untrue, his knowledge is great. Brilliant 👏
🤮🤮🤮🤮
I don't think he has a good understanding of Islam at all aside from just a superficial level. It doesn't sound like he did any research on Islam theology and philosophy. Fiqh, Ijtihad, Tawheed, Zikhr, Jihad, Fitna, Dunya, Zakat, Waḥdat al-wujūd, etc. All of these concepts in my opinion are are FUNDAMENTAL to what ISLAM actually is. One has to study these in their depth to have a better understanding into the Islamic Psyche.
@@txrangertx2418I think he has enough knowledge about reality......which Muslim Scholars really Lack
They are discussing religions based on Thier scriptures
Reality is viewed differently by everyone
Pretty sure you don't even know any of the concepts he just mentioned@@azmainfaiak8111
Damn that's a sweet Fall Out Boy t-shirt Chris is wearing.
Alex O’ Conner has this… humbleness about him as he speaks of Christianity in ways he had not just months back.
My favorite RUclipsr plus my favorite collab guy
I knew God was real when I was given everything in youth, yet had suicidal ideation and addictions beyond my control. I studied theology and philosophy for years and ended up believing Jesus Christ is truly The Word in Flesh. I’m still trying to be more like him.
God was truly cruel to put you in such a situation...to create your entire seeing around him being the only route to relief...sounds like an abusive relationship
@@warbler1984 it’s abusive to study the Bible and theology for several years, come to believe God and then through Jesus I’ve began to transform my life and everyone around me is noticing?
God didn’t put myself in that situation, I did. With my free will and bad decisions I ended up where I was. What are you even saying? It’s not “relief” either. It’s helping me overcome ACTUAL abusive relationships with addiction and substances. Do you know anything about Christianity? If someone finds meaning in things, that’s an abusive relationship to you? I’m sorry you grew up that way, that must be very difficult. Good luck man, I wish you the best
@@henryconner780 I think what he's saying is that its kinda fucked up to put someone in that situation in the first place knowing that such a life would lead to despair and agony, and god "did nothing until you believed." Its not like a person came into your life and made a change with their presence. Its a supposed god who knows and plans your whole life supposedly before your born. If gods were real then they would make sure there are ways to ensure someone will have a happy life and not lose their free will doing it. But no, he intentionally made the events of your life lead to drugs addictions and feelings of suicide. Also God didn't give you strength at all you found the strength within yourself to overcome those obstacles. Stories like yours are great but when i hear people not give themselves the credit they deserve and give it to some god, its just frustrating.
Also Grew up Baptist and reading the bible was ONE of the things that lead to my deconstruction....Hell i think it single handedly started me to question my birth religion in the first place. Its a pretty fucked up book all through, but especially the old testament. Definitely not for children.
believe or don't believe, its clearly helped you, but the fact i can go to india and find people saying the same thing about hinduism, and Saudi Arabia with Islam, is pretty damning for any religion
@@XxUSAF1RExX… jesus christ wishes he was you.
Can i pray to you?
Cuz GODDAMN that shit was impressive.
I literally could not have said it better myself.
Like do you have any other comments to people i can read, cuz that shit made my whole day… and i just woke up.
Live Long Legend
@@XxUSAF1RExX I’m Christian Orthodox. We believe free will, I had thought my responsibility was implied through my free will. It seems you don’t understand Orthodox theology, that’s perfectly fine, you have never been exposed to it maybe.
We believe God knows our lives and how they would unfold in every scenario. So it’s not Orthodox to believe God made me do evil, that’s heretical. I chose to do evil, I chose to let temptations control my life, and I chose to ignore the good. I chose to be weak hearted and let worldly pleasures destroy me.
The Father most certainly gave me strength through Jesus Christ, and his teachings has given me profound strength in my life.
We Orthodox truly believe that suffering and going through what I did for example, is in many ways a gift from God. For it makes man holy to go through suffering, it makes man have love and humility in his heart. That’s a serious blessing.
You contradict yourself, you claim God is the one who made me do evil things, but yet, when I mention the strength and courage I’ve gotten through God, you easily dismiss God for being the one to help me. It’s contradictory at its core, and lacks logical cohesion. Of course, I understand I chose to start doing good.
I also think your broad parallels to other religions is dishonest and vague I’ve studied world religions in college at University of Michigan, while there may be some parallels it really isn’t the same.
What an incredible delivery guys. Incredible I say. I could have sworn I was listening to two of our best Christian apologists today! High theological IQ from you both👏🏼👏🏼
God continues to bless you both. 🙏
Is this new or just that there is a term for it now?
Honestly have known lots of "cultural Christians" back when I was actually "in the church" some 20 years ago.
Yup thats exactly what I was thinking.
Exactly. It’s not new.
It's a new term for it. I assume because people today are too afraid to call them "fake Christians"
It's more like it used to be something really taboo back in the day.
Nowadays it seems like it's more accepted, specially because a lot of religious institutions feel threatened so they are now kind of forced to try and welcome those people who don't really believe but want to play pretend.
If there were as many new Christians in the world as there are ads in this video then there truly would be great Christian revival.
😂
"You don't really try on Nihilism so much as you take off the clothes and you're not wearing anything for a while."
What a great description of nihilism, its the removing of the cultural/religious preconception of existence and finding/making it for yourself
It is more likely that the tree is evolving, producing new kinds of fruits. An apple can appear in multiple colors, textures, and flavors, but if someone asks, "What's that?", the quick answer would still be "Apple." One can adhere to a set of rules and values, striving to align with the morals Jesus represents, without necessarily believing the entire story. Speaking as a Jewish Spinozian/Nietzschean/stoic seeker, I also bet that not a single Jew was wearing a yarmulke 3000 years ago.
Except that in this particular case, Jesus actually demanded belief (faith - they are the same word in Greek).
The gospel of John could not be more explicit, it states multiple times that the purpose of the whole piece is that you believe in Jesus and Jesus says that that's what you need to do repeatedly. "That all who believe may not perish". "No one comes to the Father except through me". Etc.
@@SeanusAurelius I understand your point, and you can see similar cases in other religions. The Jews demanded Samuel unite all tribes under one kingdom and find a king, so no one came to God except through Saul.
From an unreligious perspective, this is a smart strategy. By telling people they must come to you first, you gain control over the chain that connects humanity to God. This is why Muhammad claimed to be the last true prophet, to gain power over that chain.
The Old Testament opens with Genesis, telling two different creation stories. Which one should we believe? Or perhaps it's simply a good, nonliteral story. Maybe God wanted to share values, morals, and rules to help us become better people, and the best way to do that is by mixing parts of history with good storytelling.
The point of Christianity is that you are saved by faith, the thief being crucified performed no works and followed no specific morals of Jesus. Yet Jesus says he will go to heaven.
These people and their fruit are closer to atheists or Jews than Christians.
@@yanivhadar4489 The morals Jesus taught isn't just to be "good" in this life, but to have a personal relationship with him and be with him forever in the next life though. And it's not about gaining power- many of the early Christians were persecuted and killed for being Christians. Even Jesus himself was tortured and crucified, and said his followers shouldn't be surprised if the world hates us for following him.
Except Jesus was gay and had 12 boyfriends
Having studied some major world religions I've found there there is much wisdom to be gained when looking for peace, equinimty, joy, acceptance of reality, life's value. But religion also makes absolute claims in the form of commands, rituals, demands, roles, etc.
Can't we "tease out" the wisdom from these ancient traditions without accepting Iron Age social and truth claims?
What wisdom can you get from ancient religions that you can't with modern literature?
@@taobaoexpert123 Interesting you should say. Wisdom doesn't seem to change over time. Mythological themes of heroism, love, redemption, origins...are common themes of all great literature. The paradoxical wisdom of strength in humility, loving unconditionally, losing self, is generally found in the great religions of the world.
Problem? Good literature is hard to find.
@@taobaoexpert123all modern literature is influenced by ancient religions basically a copy so nope dog
@@nonyobussiness3440 Modern medicine is infleunced by old medicine doesn't mean we start trying blood letting again
I think a better question is why do those rituals arise if the only usefull part of the religion is its wisdom, and why do those rituals resemble eachother across all religions? can we truly be sure that all the spiritual side of all religions is false? and why is there such a strong movement that staunchly belives so if its obvious?
For the longest time i was an agnostic, not religious, but humble enough that i didnt think i could be 100% sure religion was completely unfounded. It always baffled me how staunch atheists could exist, if youre guided by reason and logic, wouldnt you just act as if religion is false, becuase you havnt seen god or anything like that, without feeling the need to scream from the rooftops that its 100% false for sure?
Atheism seems like a faith based system, like all religions, but at least religions have people who seem to honestly belive they have seen god in some vision, meanwhile atheism has no evidence for anything, yet the same conviction.
This podcast will go down in history
Alex isn’t a Christian mostly because his view of the good life is little to no suffering, and Christianity actually calls you to suffer. In fact God himself suffers, particularly through Jesus Christ. In the end that’s the issue. All the other arguments are a distraction from that fact. If Alex would see that the good life is not free or as little suffering as possible, he’d see.
Did you derive this from arguments he presented in this video?
Cool story. Did Alex say that, or are you just so arrogant as to presume you know his mind better than he does?
Lul, the good old ''they choose to be atheist to live an easier life''
Nah, spirituality is effortless... on the other hand, education and science require actual hard work
Oh dear, the "If [atheist] would....he'd see" nonsense yet again.
@milansvancara Christianity isn't effortless. It's hard to discipline the mind and body from sin most people can't even stop touching themselves
alex been mewing fr
I believe Alex is a brilliant young man, and he does his research. There's no question about that. I also have Faith an hope that there is a God, I believe in sight unseen faith by choice. I would go to Alex for the truth about scripture more so than I would any Christian today because they are so biased and many don't do their research and some Christians are rather mean to you when you question the Bible. Because if you question the Bible, you might get true answers, and they're afraid of that that's my take and my experience with overzealous Christians. I've learned more about the Bible outside of reading it myself from Alex, thank you, Alex for being a scholar of the Bible. Whether you know what or not you're doing God's work as far as I'm concerned, because. when you quote scripture and tell us about what it really says, it's wonderful. I appreciate you 100%.
Is it on the rise? The churches are empty.
Not my church. We get new visitors all the time. It depends on the denomination.
A lot of people pretending.
@@Fernando-ek8jp I used to think like that too till I was outside my physical body
@@RichardTavilla That is completely irrelevant.
Even if I were to agree that the supernatural is real, it wouldn't change the fact that a lot of people that go to church are just pretending that they believe
They're delulu. There's no indication that Christianity is on the rise in the West and the decline is even accelerating in its last Western stronghold the US.
As a Christian, I am always glad to hear from an intelligent and honorable atheist like Alex O’Conner. I greatly appreciate this channel and the quality perspectives it offers. It does seem that in trying to address wisdom to help people navigate the modern world, a spiritual dimension is often neglected, and I know that is because Chris is not particularly in that world, but I would love to see him engage more with it. More quality perspectives from all sides willing to have a constructive conversation.
I can see Paul Vanderklay being a Christian who would work well on this program.
Honorable? Are you kidding me. The way he paints God as a monster to his audience because of his fundamentalist and literalistic understanding of the OT. Did you watch the Dinesh debate and many others where he interprets Scripture literally? I don't know how many souls caved into atheism because of his fundamentalist approach on Scripture where he selectively cherry picks Scriptures and takes them out of context. Just curious why you name yourself boringbiblestudy. Maybe you too bought into his hermeneutics on Scripture.
Plus one for PVK. Would be a great convo
@@Shawn-nq7dumy friend, until 5 minutes ago, Christians also believed that. The fact that apologists have had to sanitise the bible because it no longer aligns with modern morality is really the nail in the coffin of the claim that the bible offers any real foundation for an objective morality.
And yes, I saw the dinesh debate, and just because Dinesh doesnt have an answer doesn't mean O'Connor is dishonourable. Just that his position doesn't have a great deal to offer. If that debate has lost souls, God should get better arguments
@@Shawn-nq7du
When I say honorable, I mean that he is generally charitable towards other Christians and tries to represtent their views accurately. His attacks are towards the arguments and not towards people.
What is your definition of honorable? Alex thinks God is evil because of the way he interprets the scriptures and his own value system? This makes him wrong. Can people not be honorable in representing their views while being wrong? I agree he misunderstands verses and misses context sometimes, but cherry picking would suggest he is intentionally doing so. Yes, he has likely led many people to atheism, and that sucks, but I'd rather have someone make good arguments for atheism that get people thinking carefully than sloppy, emotional, uncharitable arguments for atheism which get people caught in their emotions and a false sense of superiority over the Christian views that they never understand. Alex often explains the Christian perspective accurately before explaining why he thinks this is wrong. I'd much prefer two intelligent and charitable interlocutors debating a topic than two idiot blowhards, and I find Alex is someone who is respectful and intelligent who can challenge me without insulting me, so I find that honorable.
I chose the name Boring Bible Study because I had been studying Numbers, the book of the Bible I thought was most boring, and found that it was actually kind of interesting when I looked into it more. I wanted an outlet for all the things I had learned, so I started a RUclips channel to post my thoughts. I thought Boring Bible Study might catch people’s attention which in your case proved true.
In retrospect, I've learned how to access much better quality commentaries since my videos on Numbers, so I do not know that the work there holds up very well, but it was a good stepping stone to what I am doing now where I am teaching at church.
@@bbainter7880
Paul Vanderklay has that focus on cultural issues, a breadth of knowledge, and heart for helping people navigate tough issues and the modern world with nuance. I think he'd do great on this channel.
I really like the development of Alex.
In the US I always feel like I’m being looked down a bit on (being a practicing Buddhist) whenever I’m in a Christian’s presence. Always a sense of arrogance. But maybe I’m mistaking a reflection of myself upon them,idk. But I did ask my brother, an orthodox Christian what he thinks about my faith & he said they think other faiths have a lot of good in them, of the highest sense, but ultimately the “Christian” god is above all. This naturally, puts a feeling of division & the sense of, my belief is wrong.
I have to acknowledge Alex, probably gives a better account of the difference between Islam and Christianity, than most other non-muslim podcasters. His understanding of Islam is still flawed but I have to say I'm very surprised by his understanding. He has clearly tried to research the topic in a more honest way than most. He has definitely earned my respect.
Jonathan Haidt’s book about how religion functions as a group cohesion force is compelling. Humans aren’t just individuals: we thrive in groups and communities, religious ones as well. It goes a long way to explaining why devout people who attend church live longer and are healthier in some respects than non-religious people. They are socially more active this way and are less depressed and nihilistic
Yeah as much as people dunk on religion. People often overlook the many studies that support the case that religion/religious people tend to be happier, have greater quality of social relationships, and live longer lives.
There are multiple missed points in the case of the captive taken in war and subsequently married. 1. Impulsive and irrational treatment of the woman is not allowed. She cannot simply be raped as often happens after battles. Time is given to restore rationality. He must not know her before the journey home, or before meeting his family, or before shaving her hair, ( at which point she is no longer a beautiful woman). Furthermore, she has time to mourn and the couple has time to get to know each other. Marriage provides her with a status as a wife and she gets to avoid starvation. If she goes free, she may go where she pleases. But I think the Hebrew culture was far superior to the surrounding cultures that she would likely be won over by the treatment mentioned above. But overall the above restrictions would make many come to their senses and not get married at all.
I’m so curious about what a cultural Christian’s honest answer would be to two questions:
Firstly, how would you know when the time had come to try something else?
And secondly, if you became convinced that Christianity was actually corrosive to civil cohesion, would you stop being a Christian?
I think that these sorts of questions get at the main difference between theological and cultural Christians. And I have got to say that theological Christians come across as way more authentic - cultural Christianity seems focused entirely on the mundane world, and in that way it seems to be almost the opposite of a religion. A religion, at the end of the day, is about engaging with a part of reality that is ‘higher’ than the mundane world, and how this higher reality may have correspondingly ‘higher’ claims on you and offer correspondingly ‘higher’ benefits. Get rid of those higher things and I don’t know if you’ve really got a religion anymore - you’ve got a Noble Lie.
I think that theological Christians should be cautious about cultural Christian. It may feel like the number of Christians is increasing, but when you eat empty calories you also feel like you’re getting full.
As an Orthodox Jew you probably have a point. Our religion is a religion of action. One that requires actions in all areas of ones life. So for us cultural religiously traditional Jews aren't problematic. If they take so many actions they usually wind up doing it for reasons of faith in the end. The problem with applying it to Christianity is that even in its most orthodox denominations it tends not to make demands over large areas of ones life. So in some areas the person lives a religious life and in Others he lives a secular live. As a result he tends to be vulnerabile to secular influence even when it's wrapped up in cultural Christianity.
As someone who grew up veeeery Christian, I would have viewed a “Cultural Christian” as someone coming in to influence and manipulate. Coming in under ulterior motives.
I have always understood "cultural" Christian to refer to someone who was raised in a Christian environment and is therefore influenced by Christian culture while not being an active believer. In that sense I've never considered it a choice to be made. Any more than any other element of cultural heritage.
I'm not sure what kind of answer you'd expect for that. The people who try to convert for cultural or political reasons are doing it purely because they don't think there's any better option to achieve their ideal type of society. The media puts on a show of disparaging Christianity, and when these people look at the "good old days" they notice a lot of it involved Christianity so they think that must be why it was good. That's the extent of their logic.
Sooner or later, when they realize Christianity isn't going to help them realize their ideal society, some of them will abandon those ideals and go all-in on getting to live forever in Heaven and whatnot, and others will move on to some other ideology, probably more oriented to their goals.
@@zhugh9556 I agree with you. I am/was a Catholic who "married into" a Sunni Muslim family. None of us are hot-blooded "believers", but we do find it important to understand each others' history and culture (including why we say bad things about Protestants, and they say bad things about Shi'ites🙃).
I’ve been dreading watching this because I’m taking an Alex OConnor break. How can you be so sophisticated and so charitable and such a divergent thinker while also being pretty accurate about his historical knowledge. And then look over the fact that Hitler hated the Christian ethos, he locked up tons of Catholics and sent them to their deaths, especially the clergy, I don’t claim to know exactly what God Hitler prayed to, but the way he treated Christians doesn’t show that he was on their side. These atheist apologetics are exhausting 🥱.
He believed in the state. He was "Catholic", but the interests of his German blood nation came first. God wasn't the master he served.
?
@@SawyerCarlson-h6f Alex can do better, I think he will.
He who says "Better to go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe... This fear he slavishly obeys... For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world... It is like a general informing his soliders that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained. Our errors are surely not so awfully solumn things. In a world where we are certain to incur them in spite of all our caution, a certain lightness of heart seems healthier than this excessive nervousness on their behalf.
William James,
believing that Jesus Christ was the son of God, that he died and rose from the dead, repenting of your sins and asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior makes you a Christian. Then following the teachings of Jesus is your fruit that you are a follower. It doesn't mean you will be a perfect person never sinning again. But how good you are doesn't get you into heaven, even though it is a sign that you are trying to follow what Jesus said to do. Just liking some of the teachings of Jesus doesn't make you a Christian anymore than liking Chinese food and Kung fu makes you Chinese
Jordan Peterson hardest hit
I never thought Id come back to Christianity, I was convinced it was false. But the gospel's undeniable attachment to caring for the needy and oppressed actually brought me back.
But can you not be convinced of their good-heartedness while also demonstrating the same perceived good-heartedness without needing the framework of an organized religion?
Cheers
In that case you (and all Christians) would be equally fulfilled spending 4 hours every Sunday serving the needy surely?
@@XinwylFumudaiski Oh yes, but it seems we as humans sorta need that extra push. By and large. What I see is in these volunteer spaces, while there are a handful of people who do it without any religious or otherwise compelling motivation, even in the secular organizations with secular money, the people showing up to volunteer are overwhelmingly religiously motivated. A Christian has an extra voice in his head that he believes to be God that an atheist just simply doesn't have.
@@judegrindvoll8467 Moreso. I volunteer at my church every Monday night where we house the homeless and feed them and sit and talk with them and help them to feel human again, and the interfaith organization we work with helps them with clothing, transportation and employment. I look forward to the Monday nights more than I do Sundays.
There's another church here that pooled all their money together and instead of building a super church, they bought an entire city block and built transitional housing for the homeless and recovering drug addicts. Still the same tiny little church, but they do SO MUCH good.
Alex is only 24. Couple more years, I’d guess.
Christianity is beautiful. It leads to happiness, fulfillment and peace
It didn't for me.
Great job, Chris, as usual. I've run into several people lately who told me that they were "christians". I would have never known if they hadn't told me first. Not sure what that means...except maybe that the bar is set pretty low.
I was a pothead, depressed, had a business I hated, my life was stress and emptiness.. God was with me even though I was not a Christian yet, I heard Him.. I met my now husband, then l gave my life to Jesus, had a beautiful baby boy and life is not easy but its full of meaning and content.. Jesus is the only way
Rise of Christian revival is better described as a fall of enlightenment: the period and principles responsible for the greatest improvement in quality of life ever.
No, not really. This view assumes atheism is the pinnacle of enlightenment. It isn’t. Plenty of religious minds contributed to the scientific revolution that led to the enlightenment era.
@@TheMrRelic And most of our physics understanding was contributed by an Alchemist. Yes I think astrology, alchemy, and applying agency to an supernatural world behind the scenes, are all quite against enlightenment (which is just the idea of checking one's and eachother's assumptions)
Let's all start saying prayers for Alex to become a Catholic. 🙏🙏🙏.Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you are humbled enough to be brought to your knees and realize there is a possibility that there is something outside yourself. It's early days for Ayaan,.There are so many layers to Christianity.
Basically you have to be desperate enough to believe all that nonsense.
lets not and say we did.
Great conversation. Here’s what the two trees in the garden mean as shown by the rest of the Bible:
1. “Knowledge” is more personal and experiential in the Bible’s use of the word (i.e. “Adam knew his wife and she conceived” Gen 4:1)
2. “Knowledge of Good and Evil” is synonymous with “wisdom” and having it is not in itself wrong. God has the knowledge, and commends Solomon for asking for it in 1 Kings 3. (It should be noted, Solomon never asks for “wisdom”, he asks to “know good and evil” and god says “I will do what you have asked and make you wise”) (see also Gen:3 “She saw the fruit, that it was delightful to the eyes and desirable to make one WISE”)
3. Knowledge of Good and Evil (Wisdom) is nescessary to fufil God’s to “rule” the earth and subdue it. Solomon asks God to “know good and evil” because he does not know how to rule.
4. The Tree of Life represents relationship-to/knowledge-of God. Jesus said in John 17 “This is ETERNAL LIFE , that they KNOW you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent into the world.
5. True wisdom is found in the knowledge-of/relationship-to God while wisdom found outside of him is counterfit. Paul prays for the Ephesians 1 when he prays that the Father “may give you the Spirit of WISDOM and of revelation in the KNOWLEDGE of him”. Proverbs puts it this way: The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM (Proverbs 9:10)
Humans have the freedom given by God to choose where to source their wisdom; from God Himself (The Tree of Life) or independently from God (The Tree of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). Ultimately the choices are this: Either depend on God, or else be independent from Him.
6. Depending on the maker of life is to have life
7. Independence from the maker of life is death
8. God wants humans to have the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but they must receive it from Him.
Read "Paralandra" by C.S. Lewis for a deeply philosophical and fictional re-rendering of this story.
We are spiritual beings that know oneness and unicity already and we come to the dualistic plane of earth to experience the universe more deeply. Adam and Eve CHOSE to leave unicity to come to duality. This is the tree of knowledge parable.
You do know that Adam and Eve never existed right?
@@TheMissiIeWait, they aren’t?
@PresidentKang90 Yeah, it's one of the major claims in the bible that has mountains of evidence against it. For a start, there's no evidence in our genetic data to suggest that our entire population came from two people 6000 years ago. Adam and Eve's existence is something that we can test/verify, but no one has been able to, so it's reasonable to say they never existed as described in the bible. Was there a couple named Adam and Eve that the story was attributed to? Maybe, but it definitely wasn't like the bible depiction
This sounds like a satire.
I just want to point out that conversion can be a process just like deconversion. When you deconvert or deconstruct your faith you start questioning one idea at a time instead of abandoning it all in one go. While many Christian faiths celebrate the once in a lifetime, born-again experience, nothing prevents you from moving to cultural christianity and from there to actual faith. That process can take multiple generations as well, maybe you never believe, but if you raise your children as christians they might end up being true believers.
Well said
will you still go to hell?
Why would one want to go to the "actual faith" in the first place? Especially when they already have a decent life by having healthy pracises, just without the religious dogmatism?
@@three_owl_night Would you really describe the present post modern hell hole a decent life?
@grannyannie2948 I was specifically talking about people who adopted healthy practices (long term monogamous relationship, forming communities, expressing gratitude and taking responsibility vs feeling entitled and always searching to blame someone). There are plenty of those, and I wouldn't describe them as a part of the hell hole; they are too busy living their life rather than being activists
I kind of understand culturally Christianity, the churches, songs , celebrations,rituals are really beautiful, you can enjoy it without believing in Christianity