It is very wise to give a clear opinion but then to see the person. Thank you Tom for always pointing to the pastoral need and situation of the individuals
My husband has mental problems, he saw people in the church who were homosexual kissing during mass etc., and he went and told them this was inappropriate and he was told by the priest that he doesn't want to see him at church ever again. So what was done in my opinion we invite people to be changed by Christ and remove those challenging them? why no one asks my husband how he feels, and why he did it.
I do like Tom Wright, but I feel disappointed; this conversation (like some of the others in this series) tried to cover way too much ground for the time allowed. At so many points, Tom is just about to get to explore a point, and then the conversation moves on to a different question without any clear guidance. Does anyone know which books of Tom's have more detail about his thoughts on Christian responses to homosexuality (yes, I know - an "ity"!). I love Tom considering the ancient historical contexts, and bringing his insights into the 21st century, but he wasn't able to do that in enough detail this time.
Some conversations are constructed to spark interest, not necessarily to answer all questions . It is a huge incentive for further exploration of specific topics on your own kind of an investment in self-knowledge.
I’ve listened to Heiser’s lecture on Gnosticism, but haven’t thought about it in light of the sexual identity movement. Loved the Stott pastoral advice given. Thank you for posting this!
If Gender is a “Social Construct” and Gender and Sex are not the same thing (as some people claim),…then why does sports and the Olympics have a Gender Eligibility Test that is specifically used to determine a person’s Sex?
What we have recorded in scripture is what God has said is best for us. Any deviation from what are clear commands will not guide us to health and wellbeing - Gods best for us. We behave in other ways at our peril. Our behaviour is our responsibility. The consequences will be inevitable. Loving moral guidance is the role of the church ( christians). Judgement remains with God.
Are you talking about Tom or yourself. Judge not that you be not judged. The Pharisees had strong scriptural support for stoning the woman caught in adultery, Jesus did not condemn her even though he didn't legitimise adultery. Go and learn what this means 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice'. When God does judge it is always kolasis (restorative) and not timoria (retributive). Grace and Peace.
Homosexuality is a 19th century construct? The word is, but the phenomenon definitely isn't. What kind of love is expressed in the poetry by Sappho in the 5th century BCE?
To be fair I think he meant the word was. Not that homosexuality was. He did say at some point in the interview that one of his favourite Roman poets detailed long-term loving homosexual relationships and that everything we know about homosexuality today, they knew in the ancient world also.
@@michaelhughes5706 He might, but it is common that bigots do not argue their position directly but rather they create impressions. It is a manipulative and cowardly way to convey their views. Saying that homosexuality is a 19th century construct leaves the impression hanging in the air that it is not natural behaviour but a social construct. Even if he elaborated differently later on, the impression of this statement stays.
I think he meant seeing it as someone's primary identity almost in a level with male or female rather than something someone does is what is a more modern phenomenon. So more than just the word.
An interesting discussion but far too short and superficial to cover such complex issues. Thank you for remembering the importance of kindness and respect for our brothers and sisters who are gay or transgender. It would be great to have a deeper discussion of both sexuality and sexual identity with expert medical and other input as well as the wisdom and understanding of theology and history from Prof Wright. Intersex is complex and not new and much Christian discussion is ill informed and unkind. This was an exception.
All well reasoned. Thank you. There is an angle to all this that might be explored better. We make sex, and the relationship between a man and a woman, exclusively a moral issue (just as the world does). But shouldn't we view is as a spiritual one first? God has consistently used it to fundamentally compare the relationship between himself and his people. Begin there.
If only we could get back to a point where being offended wasn't the end of the world. As mentioned, have the discussion, and understand you may not agree, and that is okay.
The trouble is that people frequently read their holy book, pull out whatever seems to confirm their existing prejudice and then behave as though they have divine warrant for their beliefs.
@@grayhalf1854 I suppose some people do. But the majority of honest Christians read and follow what scripture itself says because it's the Word of God. To expand on that, we allow scripture to interpret scripture, as it hangs together as a whole. Research the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. A good exegete will adjust their position based on What God says about a subject as that holds far more weight than any human thought, whether it's popular or not. I suppose some allow their "leaders" to describe what position they "should" hold, but every Christian ought to measure that up with the yardstick of scripture and test it for truth as we are taught by scripture itself: "test everything; hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16,17 "there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." - Galations 1:7,8 "For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." - Galations 1:10 " Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." - Acts 17:11 [Edit - added Acts 17:11]
@@grayhalf1854 Something you may find interesting, that the biggest controversies and contrasts between "the church" and the "modern world" come in the form of ideologies which undermine the value and merit of the traditional nuclear family in some way or another. This is because the family structure when practiced according to God's design, is a model of the rightly functioning interaction of God with mankind and mankind with each other. Rightful and loving submission, authority, respect, comfort, meaning and value, all of which result in healthy individuals, especially when they also include God in their interactions.
@@grayhalf1854 Seems my first comment didn't post.. will try again: Christians are not Christ, but merely fallen men on their path to sanctification with His help. There is only one trustworthy to behave completely morally, and that is God. But as Christians understand scripture more clearly, we see God's morality more clearly and align ourselves with His will. We now understand the fundamental element that makes slavery (and other forms of human rights violations) wrong: Being made in the image of God, with no fundamental difference in nature between all mankind, regardless of location, race, sex, etc. It's not the belief that has changed over time, but the clarification and deeper understanding of scripture. The passages that relate to gender issues have been examined and re-examined many times and scripture is very clear on the issue, there is no room for forcing modern popular concepts into it. As time goes on we are gaining better understanding of the gender issues and their roots, and the further we go along that path, the more we see the wisdom of the scriptural view.
@@stephenkeen6044 In short, the world is determined to redefine family and the church is involved in the battle to hold to the truth God has given to ensure the survival of the family? If so, this is truly where the battle is being raged and without the Spirit guiding us, we will lose battle after battle. I am so grateful that Christ said He would not leave us alone but send the Spirit as our helper.
I was hoping to listen to some helpful answers on some of these topics, but I was pretty much disappointed. In the area of sexuality, if someone decided to commit to Christ and follow him, but struggled with some of these issue and was looking for some direction, I heard nothing new from Dr. Wright. When you asked about the difference between the old testament and new on the topic of Homosexuality, I thought it was headed somewhere, but it felt like a dance around of intellectual words and thought that never really came together with a clear thought. Is the topic of Homosexuality in Lev 18:22 the same Gen 19, and how does it connect to Rom 1:18? All that I heard from Dr. Wright was, things are very complicated, which for people dealing with some of these issues, based on this conversation, leaves them still at square one. Please try and ask more thought provoking questions. If you need some suggestion, please ask!
Love and respect you both so much! Hope you see this, but if not, I hope it helps someone that does. As a devout follower of our Lord for over 30 years who is also what is called “non-binary”, I have been led to see the truth of myself as a blessing with a special place in the kingdom. This is not a new phenomenon, but there is a new and confused take on it today. We have existed as long as people have, but have been called different things. Typically used for high positions in tribes, councils, kingdoms and temples, “Two-Spirit” or “Third Gender” or as I believe Jesus put it - Eunuchs. This gender identity is not apart from Christ, but rather an essential part of the divine plan as first mentioned in Isaiah 56. It’s a deeper and deeper relationship with Jesus Christ that has revealed the truth of my nature. I more than intellectually know the reality of verses that say we are not male or female or any other perceivable divide, I live it spiritually. Not to deny the physical that is being redeemed, as you said-that’s the heresy of so-called "gnosticism", but to experience that we are beings of light and to share that with others for the kingdom (John3). I believe Jesus is speaking about this in Mark 12:25. If we allow Christ's words supremacy, this would clarify what Paul speaks about in Galatians concerning no division in Christ. It’s in our ultimate form, but also mystically now. Obviously, that is not in denial of our current reality, but because we are souls that have a body, not bodies that have a soul, we live out a different existence than those without spiritual sight stuck in division/separation. Our resurrected body is a glorified one and apparently like the angels according to Christ. So, it feels incomplete to say that it's a metaphor or symbol alone. Also, the constant fundamentalist proof text for a gender binary in Matthew 19 ends with “... Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so FROM BIRTH, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” This is just talking about celibacy, right? Well, Eunuchs are not necessarily celibate. They are, however, less aggressive sexually and more importantly, they give up on a physical lineage for the sake of a king, kingdom, god or order. Also, don't miss "from birth" or how it's also translated “born that way.” Not strictly referring to sexual practice, but biological sex and/or gender. The revelation of Christ is that we all have the divine light and, collectively, we make up the body. What is lacking for the youth of today who are experiencing this spiritual reality is the alternative to the “me first gnostic” take spoken of. The Christ first, scriptural approach to redeeming what is and expelling any falsehood is the only answer. Materialism can not help what is actually spiritual, but the church must go into their prayer closet and seek wisdom about what has been recorded in other cultures for thousands of years with a positive and noble place in the community. The rate at which "... this has spread" has many factors: the internet, backlash from repression, lack of spiritual guidance, grasping for false identity/community due to nihilism, but more than all of this is the fact that the Spirit is being poured out in full and all is coming to light. The truth of our being individually and collectively will set us free because Christ is all and in all. Not one thing was made apart from Our Lord, not in heaven or on earth. The devil has created nothing and can only distort or steal what has power from God. The dross is being melted away as Christ approaches, so - fear not! Rather, be curious and compassionate. What a glorious future we have thanks to Jesus! Hope that this has been edifying for someone and that you reconsider an all or nothing approach, if you have one. God has a special place for the Eunuchs, so please be slow to speak and quick to listen.
I do think this is a Christological question, but the very question presents itself as how to treat people who are in this position. Also it’s not clear to me that this always had some tribal blessing or that eunuch has a univocal relationship to your understanding. Because the issue is Christological it becomes freighted with issues of salvation, and tension arises.
@BMoore335 It was not always honored, but it was documented. Even in the Talmud they have 6 sex variants they document. When people say they are historians... they often just mean the Semitic and Greco-Roman cultures of the last 6,000 yrs. When, in fact, by the time of Christendom, most indigenous peoples not only made peace, but found a role for these unique individuals that were an undeniable part of creation. Our salvation is based on grace! What Christ did and who He is, not gender or orientation or class etc. (Galatians 3:28). Take Acts 8 when the Ethiopian Eunuch asks "What prevents me from being baptized?" Nothing if you believe! I encourage you and anyone else to research two-spirits, which is a modern umbrella term, and the many cultures that did incorporate third gendered people. This is also in pagan temples that most Christians would use against us, but again... the devil doesn't create, only distorts or perverts. So they used the spiritual wisdom, focus and discipline of the third gendered people for their rights and rituals like many before. Check out the reference to Isaiah 56 where the Babylonian Eunuchs had no roles in God's temple after being privileged in the pagan one. God answers positively. Please read. The problem is fixating on semantics and Semitic history while clinging to old wineskins. Some people alive now demonstrate the same phenomenon that has existed as long as humanity, and all I'm saying is that we have a right and proper place in the kingdom alongside you and what makes you unique. Peace and love to you.
Language of this discourse is couched so brilliantly in scholarly linguistic superiority to condone homosexuality. Tom just cannot simply say it's morally wrong by biblical standard before articulating the pastoral process of loving the sin away from the victims to set them free. The academic study of the WORD of God undercuts its (Gospel) reliability to save people from sin and from the wrath of God. A deformed Gospel has no rescuing power it invalidates Christianity. C'mon, say the truth precisely and clearly - it is the only liberating agency. Enough of this longwinded discourse.
He does say that it's a sin; but I think the viewers of the podcast are meant to already know what he believes on that. In this interview responds to specific arguments against his position.
As a christian parent of an adult christian that recently has come out as a homosexual, we face big conflicts within our family. My child claims to still be a born again christian.( Who am l to question that? My biggest hope is that this is,and will, stay true!!) He/she used to say " God is the most important thing in my life", was a worship leader, went to Bible school, worked abroad in a church, was often asked to be on the leader team on christian youth camps, aso. The two of us used to pray and talk about the Bible and christian books for hours. And talk and laugh at many other every day things. We were ( too?) close. Thinkings that used to be harmless are now highly flamable! For instance: * I see this as just a difference of opinions. My child doesn't. It says it's about it's whole existence. * Since my child doesn't accept that the Bible talks against modern longterm faithful homosexual relationships but, possibly, against some incestious type of homosexuality- the concept of sin isn't appliable. Since it's not sinful to have a homosexual lifestyle( accordingly to liberal hbtq theology) there is absolutely no need to give it up. *" It's nothing like God to not love and accept everything about a person. He IS love, how can He be against homosexuality?" " Love is love".( My child says.) * Since God created homosexuals in a way they can't change even if they wanted( some still try to or wish they could change themselves) how could God not be in favour of the way He created a person? This leads me to question the concept of "God has created you just the way he wants you to be". He wants and loves you fully, that's still true and also that He can make any bad thing into a blessing! But is it true that He wants someone to be born blind or infertile or deaf or poor or sick, for ex? Isn't that more likely a result of the fall, of evil and sin in a way? I'm not so sure anymore. *In my very, very secular country it can soon be illegal to even have a conversation about homosexuality. You're supposed to not even register if a person is hbtq or not! Any BEHAVIOR must be seen as perfectly normal and fully accepted. As soon as you question anything or (not to mention ) are somewhat against it, it's a hate crime. It's concidered trying to convert a person and is, accordingly to the UN, a kind of torture..😮 The Bible no longer has authority over most homosexual christians- in this matter. I've been called a fanatic homophobic extremist cult leader from my own christian child. 😢 I'm not. Just a christian that wishes that God acceptes homosexual lifestyles, it would be much better for our family. But I really can't find that He does! My will( or anybody elses will) doesn't change that. HE IS GOD ALLMIGHTY. We are not. It's makes me furious 😡 and very sad 😩 that the devil has managed to make the question of homosexuality (and gender dysphoria) so sufficatingly big!😱 Churches and families split. People are not saved by the gospel because all they know about christianity/christians is that " they are crazy hateful homophobes". Jesus, help!❤ HOLY SPIRIT COME!🙏
I'm a gay Christian adult whose parents have struggled with accepting it even as an orientation. I hear you and it's truly awful when it divides a family. It sounds like you're hurting a lot and your child is hurting a whole lot too. I'll pray you find some peace over this and that God leads you in being a loving parent. Please feel free to ask me anything about my experience. I'd encourage you to let your child talk about their experiences and truly hear them and enter into their experience as much as possible. Even if you still disagree. Hearing someone can be healing.
Dear Christian,I sincerely hope this helps I approach to talk to you as a sinner myself saved by grace It is my thinking that no arguments ,no conversations ,talks , the Bible or anything will able to change your child's percepective For his mind to be in obedience to God he must be *born again.* Or regenerated or as Jesus says , Bc unregenerated mind is enmity against God . Reacting to your points-- * We have to exist in Jesus, make him our existence, if we rely on any other thing we shall fail and be in wrong in god's eyes/try to tell him this * Only a regenerate mind can identify sin and wage war against it and hate it as god hates sin because that loves Christ above all things / so that regeneration should be the top priority * God is love but tell him that it is he that defines love not the morden world true love is based on his terms not our feelings thoughts . 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a (ESV) Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. ////. * love is about receiving (pleasures or anything) but about giving to others * As Jesus gave himself/ he is true love/ from him we should learn love// please tell your child that *Yes god created us but not for the desires of the body/ but for himself - to be pure and holy in his service *Everyone is a sinner therefore against god God is not in favour of anybody it is WE That have to be in HIS FAVOUR . * In this fallen world where bad things are because of humans / * he will turn it in a blessing will be THAT HE IS THE BLESSING. Sun can never be a blessing he is / not homosexual desires * BTW either homosexual or hetrosexual all lusts are bad because love is about giving not satisfying them * Yes infirmity is because of the fall * But everyone has a different cross to carry he will deliver everyone who believe by his might * if we are born in a certain way we should find comfort in that god ways are never to hurt us / he knows what's right for us / because he is all knowing he has a plan to deliver us from all our troubles/ these things should make us fall on him more and more / isn't he the blessing and isn't it the aim of Christian's life 0Christ saves / he save us from hell and misery in this life Tell your child about the torments of hell and life without Christ and redemption and that it the FAITHFUL PATIENCENT hand of GOD that stands between us and hell in any instant We must turn from sin and punishment WHICH WOULD BE RIGHTFULLY OURS if we don't. He can only be saved by faith in Christ/ by his example/ you just tell him about Jesus and his life love and mercy and his death and resurrection. Patiently again and again. Jesus will save your child why because he loves him and he is MIGHTY to save . Therefore PRAY pray pray to him that he will save him and I will too Never doubt his power his omnipotence to save he can create circumstances or save by ways unfathomable to us I mean he is al MIGHTY I hope it helps god bless.
@@spoonsandspades Thank you! We all want to stay a close family. We all agree on that we still love each other and hate this conflict. We talk because we know it's necessary, but it's not easy. Hurt feelings on both sides. In my eyes my adult christian child is definentely a homosexual and I neither can or try to change that. It's no threat to me. I hope for a future where we can just agree on disagreeing. Live and let live. A future where my" opinion" is as much respected as liberal homosexual christians opinions are? I'm liberal in other christian/ theological matters. Not a conservative or a literal interpreter. Right now my child says that I have to interpret the Bible, on this subject, the liberal way or he/ she might break up with me/us... Feels like emotional black mailing? My/our hearts and arms are still full of love and open towards him/her.❤️ But it's not received that way. 😞To him/her loving seem to mean not or never questioning anything. No closed doors on my/our behalf. If God tells me- very obviously- that I'm wrong I will gladly change. I haven't seen or heard that same attitude from my child though. Only God can help us. My/our respect for Him is what causes this painful conflict. I can only wait, pray and try really hard to be the bigger person. Since I'm no saint it's a struggle.🙁 I'm really impressed that you have watched this video (?) and of the kind way you've reached out to me.😍 In Christ we are one.💕
@@asmitmehra7373 Thank you, it helps to be heard. And your prayers are much needed.😊 I should have been more clear about what kind of christian my child is. He/she used to be a born again christian- claims to still be- said that God comes before everything else. Was a worship leader. Went to Bible school. Worked abroad in a church. Was often asked to be on the leadership team on christian youth camps. We used to pray and talk about the Bible and christian books for hours during many years. Therefore my child has a lot of knowledge and experience of being an active living christian. And still....he/she can find a way to read those Bible verses so that he/she is certain he/she is still very much in Gods favour... Who am I to preach to my child? Or to judge? Or to say " No God hasn't okeyed your lifestyle!"? And ALL sins ARE forgiven! Homosexuality won't keep anyone out of heaven- and heterosexuality won't get anyone in to heaven. It's very complicated. I want my child to keep being close with Jesus. Most of all that.
You're in a difficult place - a place that my friend was in and she ended up leaving Christianity instead of just leaving her church. It must keep you awake at night sometimes and hurt your heart. May I suggest another view? I tend to look at the big items in the Bible - greed, love of power, abusing power imbalances, desiring status or thinking yourself better than others, not caring for others, loving money, etc. My view is that when I feel I successfully study how God sees these and then try to live these views, only then will I tackle the more minor items in the Bible (those not given a large degree of attention). I'd suggest that you could find commonality with your son by concentrating on issues that are discussed again and again and again in the Bible and leave that contentious item until later. Concentrate on seeing and caring for the poor, respecting and listening to the powerless, making laws that helped those who need help, welcoming the immigrant, sharing money (Bible Project has a great video on that), opening your eyes to the structural systems in our land that keep the poor poor and benefit the wealthy, etc.
Not gonna lie, it's wild that someone as educated as NT Wright in biblical scholarship, is this conservative with regards to "sex ethics". You would think he would have a bit more nuance due to the academic understanding of "arsenokoitai"; or the ever changing beliefs/"negotiation" in Christianity (e.g. majority current rejection of slavery), etc. Especially, considering the progressive movement in the Anglican church as well; which has resulted in the Church of England national assembly letting priests bless same-sex marriages and civil partnerships.
Not at all he's a Christian who loves the Lord and believes that the Bible is inspired by God. The Bible in both the Old and New Testaments is clear and explicit that homosexual behaviour is sin.
@@michaelhudson6359 1. There are many self identified Christians who reject the conservative/traditional position on "sex ethics"; even particularly many members and clergyman in the "Church of England" that NT Wright is a part of. 2. Assuming you're correct, the Bible is also "clear" and "explicit" about its allowance of slavery in both the Old and New Testament, yet most modern Christians rightfully negotiate away that archaic standard of morality. The same logic can be applied to any outdated principles that the Bible may espouse about homosexuality being a "sin" or "bad" in any way.
@samargles I don't deny that there are Christians who historically, and currently use the Bible/their conviction as a tool of liberation for the past slaves, and current oppressed people. That doesn't change the fact that at one point in time, the "MAJORITY" membership of Christianity overwhelmingly had at the very least, accepted slavery until recently (abolition/abolition movement). Keep in mind that Christianity is roughly 2,000 years old; and during the height of the slave trade, most of those colonizers, slave traders, slave owners, and clergy/churches who preached in favor of slavery identified as Christians. Clearly, the majority belief in Christianity has progressed since then. Hence, that is an example of beliefs evolving over time within the general consensus of Christianity.
Can someone explain why gay love is wrong other than “the book says so?” Maybe that’s reason enough if it doesn’t affect your life, but on a practical level, it’s going to be hard to reach people if you can’t justify the claim on its own merits.
It is a great mistake to reduce everything to a subjective opinion.. This subject like others has an objective perception founded upon the Word of God .
RE: Transgender I would like to ask anyone that categorically opposes gender affirming care (both medical and social) a question: When gender affirming care (which the evidence suggests) is currently the only available option for many people to improve their quality of life and in some instances prevent them from self-harm, isn't gender affirming care the right way to go? Isn't the protection of transgender individuals the number one priority?
Assuming that transgender persons have always existed, there is no evidence that gender affirming care improves quality of life and is the only option.
@@katiemiaana To my knowledge the current state of psychological studies is that gender affirming care does in fact improve quality of life in that way. The topic of detrans is certainly relevant and we obviously need to find the right methods to tell if someone just has a temporary identity crisis or is indeed trans. However, as far as I know the relative number of people that are detrans and do in fact regret transitioning is very low. That doesn't mean these people are irrelevant, but it's not that strong of an argument. Besides: Is it ok to prevent a person from transitioning because some persons might regret it? But let's stay on the individual level because that's what my question was originally about: If an individual person suffers greatly due to gender dysphoria, they get diagnosed with this dysphoria by one or multiple professionals, possibly go through multiple years of psychotherapy which doesn't result in a significant improvement of quality of life and the only method that's proven itself to be effective is gender affirming care and transitioning - why oppose it?
There's no one that cares more for transgender people than Jesus. His demonstration of deep and wide love through his death is testament to that. So, how would Jesus care for a transgendered person? I also don't mean our own version of Jesus but Jesus as He would. The Call to the woman caught in a sexual relationship with a man who was not her husband (John 8) is quite telling. Jesus doesn't kill her, but gives her a chance to walk in line with Him and become like Him. He said, "go forward and sin no more".
@@M..................... That's easier said than done. You can't just ignore a person's gender dysphoria and hope it'll go away if they just pray to Jesus. That reminds me of those Christian groups that tried to "convert" gay people. You know how that ended? Many of those individuals harmed themselves and eventually took their own lives. As I said: Currently the only efficient way to treat trans individuals seems to be gender affirming care.
Stick to historical biblical research, Tom. Brilliant there. Leave moral theology to moral theologians and active pastors who actually deal with these issues.
five minutes in and i'm disappointed. you want discourse, yet you don't enter discourse in good faith. you have presupposed answers and reject any argument that explains why you might be wrong.
@@ericsonofjohn9384 just cause something is a law, doesn't mean people don't get discriminated against in their daily lives. I suppose you don't think racism is a problem either? As a person of colour I can tell you, it is. Just as discrimination is something LGBTQ+ people face
@@stapidomcazfaikeurmom4935 you responded to a comment about “rights”, you buffoon. Black people and gays have the same right to not be discriminated against as everyone else, hence why I mentioned the EA - which you’ve clearly never bothered to research. The rest is just attention-seeking. You live in the freest, most equal society that has ever existed on earth, and you spend your time complaining about being victimised. What discrimination do you face?
Exactly. I was actually confused, because not only is the academic consensus on this issue pretty nuanced (e.g, "arsenokoitai" meaning), but also the Anglican church has a pretty sizable progressive theology movement in the UK.
@@MrballerizeHe understands the clear meaning of the text. As ever we like to think we are enlightened and know better than God. We would rather redefine and cancel a lot of sins than have God become a man and die to pay for the forgiveness of our sin.
Does this world not show signs of decay -- evidence of some great cosmic event which has corrupted God's good creation? We face the problem of evil not simply in our experience of natural disasters, but also in disease and the consequences of human choice. Clearly, we live in a fallen world, which "groans" (Romans 8:22) as it awaits God's promised redemption. Viewed from a creation perspective (unless one wishes to normalize the chaos), we are presented with the ideal, the present reality, and the future hope. We accept the diagnosis of sin's effect in many areas of life (even relationships) but hesitate to admit that sexuality has also been touched by it? This is difficult, and Wright highlights the importance of a pastoral response-- but so is cancer, the death of children difficult to understand and live with, but is likewise encompassed by the hope of a complete salvation.
As Christians we must bear in mind Gods standards regarding worship. We are in this but not of this world. In our conversations around Gods truth it is imperative that we must not compromise our faith by pleasing our hearers of what they want hear but speak against sin. This is what Christ taught us to do. He even called those who were trading in the temple, he chased out and called them vipers. If we love them, tell them what they doing is wrong. No beating around bush, sin has no mercy. He came to steal, kill and destroy but Christ came to give Life.❤
@@robinhood20253, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations, caused by poor breeding strategies. 🤡 To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
@@robinhood20253, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations, caused by poor breeding strategies. 🤡 To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
No need for Scripture or the bible because God loves and accepts you anyway, the bible is 100 % positive, lovely and accepting of all human behaviour, and the best is there are no negative verses , just all wonderful comforting and reassuring words. Its so clear in its instructions that no need to ask N T Right anything...and I love how the interviewer asks NT Right is this your own academic interpretation or has this answer been verified by the Holy Spirit, just hang on a minute, who us the Holy Spirit ! No academic ever mentions it after all...😄 🤣 😂
Tom no beating about the bush, Romans 1:27 to those baptised Tom, as 1:31 covenantbreakers , "without natural affection", 2:8 unrighteousness and wrath.
Hot topics? These are the most boring, played out topics ever. They've been talked about to DEATH on Christian channels and everywhere else. Can we move onto something else please, to topics like Christianity and economics, growth of Christianity in the non-Western world, contemporary miracles, Christianity and mental health
What is the meaning of Leviticus 18 ? a divine condemnation of erotic, same-sex relationships. ... You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. However according to modern day values the Church believes God has got it wrong 🤔
What is the meaning of Leviticus 19? A diving condemnation of cutting hair at the sides and clipping beards. However, according to modern day values the church believes God has got it wrong 🤔
According to the so-called New Testament Jesus was what Jews refer to as a Fageleh. Or a non-Heterosexual male. In John 13: 23 & 25 the original Greek grammar tells us the true nature of this extremely special relationship between Jesus and his "Beloved" disciple young John. In the ancient world the term "Beloved" was used for the younger receptive partner in a male same-sex love relationship. Like the "Beloved" of Emperor Hadrian whose name was Antinous. Then there is the body language at the last supper between Jesus and youngest disciple John. It is clearly homoerotic. Then there is that naked slave boy that Jesus was alone with in the middle of the night. Under the moon. While all the disciples slept in the Garden Of Gethsemane. And if you don't understand that Jesus and John were lovers rather than good fishing buddies. Then what happens at the crucifixion between Jesus and his Lover and his Mother simply makes no sense. Because if Jesus couldn't protect his own Mother from up in Studio 54 with only the best people. Then he would have to be a really impotent God. Why do you think that he never said a single word about either abortion, gender, or sexual orientation. Because he didn't want to be a hypocrite.💙
Wow. Someone drank the whole jug of Kool-Aid. Or some other strong substance. So here's a little dose of reality for you: "And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."" - Matthew 19:3-6 Right there in the words of Jesus Himself, defining the design for marriage as He upheld it. One man and one woman. Not sure if you just came to troll with your highly offensive post, but if you truly believe what you wrote, you need to do some deeper study.
Before faith in Christ you need baptism by the Father, because you love God, and want to bring in God's righteousness. I have a Ytube series 'Myths in so-called Christianity'.
I just really need to say this again. The church isn’t just wrong, it is IRRELEVANT, so there is no reason for anyone to get worked up about the church position because it matters about as much as an argument of whether leprechauns are better than unicorns.
2.38 billion people around the world are Christians... These discussions are relevant to them and pretty important I would say. If you're atheist then obviously it's not relevant to you personally and so I'd recommend watching something else 🤷🏼♀️
Except that God became a man and suffered and died to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead to show that death and sin had been defeated. So apart from that I suppose it's irrelevant.
To equate belief in God to leprechauns is to claim that many of the greatest minds in the history of science, philosophy, and mathematics were inferior to yours. Newton, Descartes, Pascal, and countless other intellectual giants are among those who you just dismissed as idiots, and by implication you claim to be smarter than them. Vain beyond belief. I do not present that to argue that religion must be true, but just to highlight the false equivalence you made and how vain a thing it is to say.
It is irrelevant for the majority outside, but for those inside the church, especially young people growing up in Christian families, this is of vital importance. They need the church to change, because not all of them can just get out and leave.
Tom goes beyond the Bible here, but I love how he speaks with grace and mercy.
It is very wise to give a clear opinion but then to see the person. Thank you Tom for always pointing to the pastoral need and situation of the individuals
Very good nuanced discussion. Thank you for hosting this.
Excellent! NT Wright brilliant as always!
Brilliant and careful analysis. The Gnosticism connection especially.
“When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.”
― Thomas Sowell
Are there no new Ask NT shows? It seems that since Justin moved on, they are all replays. Would love new content.
My husband has mental problems, he saw people in the church who were homosexual kissing during mass etc., and he went and told them this was inappropriate and he was told by the priest that he doesn't want to see him at church ever again. So what was done in my opinion we invite people to be changed by Christ and remove those challenging them? why no one asks my husband how he feels, and why he did it.
Sounds like a synagogue of Satan. It looks like a church but it is anything but.
Once had a seminary professor say that gender is a human construct and sex is something God created...
What an intellectually compromised ideologue.
I do like Tom Wright, but I feel disappointed; this conversation (like some of the others in this series) tried to cover way too much ground for the time allowed. At so many points, Tom is just about to get to explore a point, and then the conversation moves on to a different question without any clear guidance. Does anyone know which books of Tom's have more detail about his thoughts on Christian responses to homosexuality (yes, I know - an "ity"!). I love Tom considering the ancient historical contexts, and bringing his insights into the 21st century, but he wasn't able to do that in enough detail this time.
Preston Sprinkles book people to be loved is a good nuanced discussion on the topic. But lots of books out there.
I heard many words, but very little actually said.
Some conversations are constructed to spark interest, not necessarily to answer all questions . It is a huge incentive for further exploration of specific topics on your own kind of an investment in self-knowledge.
James Alison speaks and writes well on the subject of Sexuality and from what I have heard does good contextual biblical analysis.
I’ve listened to Heiser’s lecture on Gnosticism, but haven’t thought about it in light of the sexual identity movement. Loved the Stott pastoral advice given. Thank you for posting this!
If Gender is a “Social Construct” and Gender and Sex are not the same thing (as some people claim),…then why does sports and the Olympics have a Gender Eligibility Test that is specifically used to determine a person’s Sex?
Because different people use language differently.
@@gareth2736 It's linguistic subversion. Nobody ever used the language different before this false gender/tran ideology crap.
What we have recorded in scripture is what God has said is best for us. Any deviation from what are clear commands will not guide us to health and wellbeing - Gods best for us. We behave in other ways at our peril. Our behaviour is our responsibility. The consequences will be inevitable. Loving moral guidance is the role of the church ( christians). Judgement remains with God.
That's correct. The laws and commandments in both testaments are meant to protect us spiritually, mentally, and physically.
Soooo helpful
"...ever-learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth"
Are you talking about Tom or yourself. Judge not that you be not judged. The Pharisees had strong scriptural support for stoning the woman caught in adultery, Jesus did not condemn her even though he didn't legitimise adultery.
Go and learn what this means 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice'.
When God does judge it is always kolasis (restorative) and not timoria (retributive).
Grace and Peace.
Homosexuality is a 19th century construct? The word is, but the phenomenon definitely isn't. What kind of love is expressed in the poetry by Sappho in the 5th century BCE?
To be fair I think he meant the word was. Not that homosexuality was. He did say at some point in the interview that one of his favourite Roman poets detailed long-term loving homosexual relationships and that everything we know about homosexuality today, they knew in the ancient world also.
@@michaelhughes5706 He might, but it is common that bigots do not argue their position directly but rather they create impressions. It is a manipulative and cowardly way to convey their views. Saying that homosexuality is a 19th century construct leaves the impression hanging in the air that it is not natural behaviour but a social construct. Even if he elaborated differently later on, the impression of this statement stays.
I think he meant seeing it as someone's primary identity almost in a level with male or female rather than something someone does is what is a more modern phenomenon. So more than just the word.
An interesting discussion but far too short and superficial to cover such complex issues. Thank you for remembering the importance of kindness and respect for our brothers and sisters who are gay or transgender. It would be great to have a deeper discussion of both sexuality and sexual identity with expert medical and other input as well as the wisdom and understanding of theology and history from Prof Wright. Intersex is complex and not new and much Christian discussion is ill informed and unkind. This was an exception.
All well reasoned. Thank you.
There is an angle to all this that might be explored better. We make sex, and the relationship between a man and a woman, exclusively a moral issue (just as the world does). But shouldn't we view is as a spiritual one first? God has consistently used it to fundamentally compare the relationship between himself and his people. Begin there.
If only we could get back to a point where being offended wasn't the end of the world. As mentioned, have the discussion, and understand you may not agree, and that is okay.
The trouble is that people frequently read their holy book, pull out whatever seems to confirm their existing prejudice and then behave as though they have divine warrant for their beliefs.
@@grayhalf1854 I suppose some people do. But the majority of honest Christians read and follow what scripture itself says because it's the Word of God. To expand on that, we allow scripture to interpret scripture, as it hangs together as a whole. Research the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. A good exegete will adjust their position based on What God says about a subject as that holds far more weight than any human thought, whether it's popular or not. I suppose some allow their "leaders" to describe what position they "should" hold, but every Christian ought to measure that up with the yardstick of scripture and test it for truth as we are taught by scripture itself:
"test everything; hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16,17
"there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." - Galations 1:7,8
"For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." - Galations 1:10
" Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." - Acts 17:11
[Edit - added Acts 17:11]
@@grayhalf1854 Something you may find interesting, that the biggest controversies and contrasts between "the church" and the "modern world" come in the form of ideologies which undermine the value and merit of the traditional nuclear family in some way or another. This is because the family structure when practiced according to God's design, is a model of the rightly functioning interaction of God with mankind and mankind with each other. Rightful and loving submission, authority, respect, comfort, meaning and value, all of which result in healthy individuals, especially when they also include God in their interactions.
@@grayhalf1854 Seems my first comment didn't post.. will try again:
Christians are not Christ, but merely fallen men on their path to sanctification with His help. There is only one trustworthy to behave completely morally, and that is God. But as Christians understand scripture more clearly, we see God's morality more clearly and align ourselves with His will.
We now understand the fundamental element that makes slavery (and other forms of human rights violations) wrong: Being made in the image of God, with no fundamental difference in nature between all mankind, regardless of location, race, sex, etc. It's not the belief that has changed over time, but the clarification and deeper understanding of scripture.
The passages that relate to gender issues have been examined and re-examined many times and scripture is very clear on the issue, there is no room for forcing modern popular concepts into it. As time goes on we are gaining better understanding of the gender issues and their roots, and the further we go along that path, the more we see the wisdom of the scriptural view.
@@stephenkeen6044 In short, the world is determined to redefine family and the church is involved in the battle to hold to the truth God has given to ensure the survival of the family? If so, this is truly where the battle is being raged and without the Spirit guiding us, we will lose battle after battle. I am so grateful that Christ said He would not leave us alone but send the Spirit as our helper.
I am still unclear as to if Dr Wright says homosexuality is wrong.
Not sure he ever answers the question!!
I was hoping to listen to some helpful answers on some of these topics, but I was pretty much disappointed. In the area of sexuality, if someone decided to commit to Christ and follow him, but struggled with some of these issue and was looking for some direction, I heard nothing new from Dr. Wright. When you asked about the difference between the old testament and new on the topic of Homosexuality, I thought it was headed somewhere, but it felt like a dance around of intellectual words and thought that never really came together with a clear thought. Is the topic of Homosexuality in Lev 18:22 the same Gen 19, and how does it connect to Rom 1:18? All that I heard from Dr. Wright was, things are very complicated, which for people dealing with some of these issues, based on this conversation, leaves them still at square one. Please try and ask more thought provoking questions. If you need some suggestion, please ask!
For all that was spoken, very little was actually said. No development of an argument which could be considered and discussed.
Are we (the Church/Christians) not very good at “communicating” well, because there is very little orthodoxy held in the Church?
Confused! Thought JB had left
"Eerrr"..."sort of"..."ye know"..."in a sense"...a skilled presenter needed
Love and respect you both so much! Hope you see this, but if not, I hope it helps someone that does. As a devout follower of our Lord for over 30 years who is also what is called “non-binary”, I have been led to see the truth of myself as a blessing with a special place in the kingdom. This is not a new phenomenon, but there is a new and confused take on it today. We have existed as long as people have, but have been called different things. Typically used for high positions in tribes, councils, kingdoms and temples, “Two-Spirit” or “Third Gender” or as I believe Jesus put it - Eunuchs. This gender identity is not apart from Christ, but rather an essential part of the divine plan as first mentioned in Isaiah 56. It’s a deeper and deeper relationship with Jesus Christ that has revealed the truth of my nature. I more than intellectually know the reality of verses that say we are not male or female or any other perceivable divide, I live it spiritually. Not to deny the physical that is being redeemed, as you said-that’s the heresy of so-called "gnosticism", but to experience that we are beings of light and to share that with others for the kingdom (John3). I believe Jesus is speaking about this in Mark 12:25. If we allow Christ's words supremacy, this would clarify what Paul speaks about in Galatians concerning no division in Christ. It’s in our ultimate form, but also mystically now. Obviously, that is not in denial of our current reality, but because we are souls that have a body, not bodies that have a soul, we live out a different existence than those without spiritual sight stuck in division/separation. Our resurrected body is a glorified one and apparently like the angels according to Christ. So, it feels incomplete to say that it's a metaphor or symbol alone. Also, the constant fundamentalist proof text for a gender binary in Matthew 19 ends with “... Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so FROM BIRTH, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” This is just talking about celibacy, right? Well, Eunuchs are not necessarily celibate. They are, however, less aggressive sexually and more importantly, they give up on a physical lineage for the sake of a king, kingdom, god or order. Also, don't miss "from birth" or how it's also translated “born that way.” Not strictly referring to sexual practice, but biological sex and/or gender. The revelation of Christ is that we all have the divine light and, collectively, we make up the body. What is lacking for the youth of today who are experiencing this spiritual reality is the alternative to the “me first gnostic” take spoken of. The Christ first, scriptural approach to redeeming what is and expelling any falsehood is the only answer. Materialism can not help what is actually spiritual, but the church must go into their prayer closet and seek wisdom about what has been recorded in other cultures for thousands of years with a positive and noble place in the community. The rate at which "... this has spread" has many factors: the internet, backlash from repression, lack of spiritual guidance, grasping for false identity/community due to nihilism, but more than all of this is the fact that the Spirit is being poured out in full and all is coming to light. The truth of our being individually and collectively will set us free because Christ is all and in all. Not one thing was made apart from Our Lord, not in heaven or on earth. The devil has created nothing and can only distort or steal what has power from God. The dross is being melted away as Christ approaches, so - fear not! Rather, be curious and compassionate. What a glorious future we have thanks to Jesus! Hope that this has been edifying for someone and that you reconsider an all or nothing approach, if you have one. God has a special place for the Eunuchs, so please be slow to speak and quick to listen.
I do think this is a Christological question, but the very question presents itself as how to treat people who are in this position. Also it’s not clear to me that this always had some tribal blessing or that eunuch has a univocal relationship to your understanding. Because the issue is Christological it becomes freighted with issues of salvation, and tension arises.
@BMoore335 It was not always honored, but it was documented. Even in the Talmud they have 6 sex variants they document. When people say they are historians... they often just mean the Semitic and Greco-Roman cultures of the last 6,000 yrs. When, in fact, by the time of Christendom, most indigenous peoples not only made peace, but found a role for these unique individuals that were an undeniable part of creation. Our salvation is based on grace! What Christ did and who He is, not gender or orientation or class etc. (Galatians 3:28). Take Acts 8 when the Ethiopian Eunuch asks "What prevents me from being baptized?" Nothing if you believe! I encourage you and anyone else to research two-spirits, which is a modern umbrella term, and the many cultures that did incorporate third gendered people. This is also in pagan temples that most Christians would use against us, but again... the devil doesn't create, only distorts or perverts. So they used the spiritual wisdom, focus and discipline of the third gendered people for their rights and rituals like many before. Check out the reference to Isaiah 56 where the Babylonian Eunuchs had no roles in God's temple after being privileged in the pagan one. God answers positively. Please read. The problem is fixating on semantics and Semitic history while clinging to old wineskins. Some people alive now demonstrate the same phenomenon that has existed as long as humanity, and all I'm saying is that we have a right and proper place in the kingdom alongside you and what makes you unique. Peace and love to you.
So academic, so bloodless, so devoid of compassion and understanding.
Language of this discourse is couched so brilliantly in scholarly linguistic superiority to condone homosexuality. Tom just cannot simply say it's morally wrong by biblical standard before articulating the pastoral process of loving the sin away from the victims to set them free. The academic study of the WORD of God undercuts its (Gospel) reliability to save people from sin and from the wrath of God. A deformed Gospel has no rescuing power it invalidates Christianity. C'mon, say the truth precisely and clearly - it is the only liberating agency. Enough of this longwinded discourse.
He does say that it's a sin; but I think the viewers of the podcast are meant to already know what he believes on that.
In this interview responds to specific arguments against his position.
Responding thoughtfully with humans in mind is far from academic jargon. You might also have trouble with how Jesus addresses a Q & A.
The truth is not a tyrant but neither is it democratic and man is or should be subject to the truth . The truth is not subject to man.
How could Indians not know they had Hinduism as distinct from Islam when both are within the country regardless of what the British told them?
Sad! He keeps going round .. please pastor tell us if homosexualuty is sin?
It is nota “ traditional” point of view it is a Biblical point of view .
As a christian parent of an adult christian that recently has come out as a homosexual, we face big conflicts within our family.
My child claims to still be a born again christian.( Who am l to question that? My biggest hope is that this is,and will, stay true!!)
He/she used to say " God is the most important thing in my life", was a worship leader, went to Bible school, worked abroad in a church, was often asked to be on the leader team on christian youth camps, aso.
The two of us used to pray and talk about the Bible and christian books for hours. And talk and laugh at many other every day things.
We were ( too?) close.
Thinkings that used to be harmless are now highly flamable!
For instance:
* I see this as just a difference of opinions. My child doesn't. It says it's about it's whole existence.
* Since my child doesn't accept that the Bible talks against modern longterm faithful homosexual relationships but, possibly, against some incestious type of homosexuality- the concept of sin isn't appliable.
Since it's not sinful to have a homosexual lifestyle( accordingly to liberal hbtq theology) there is absolutely no need to give it up.
*" It's nothing like God to not love and accept everything about a person. He IS love, how can He be against homosexuality?" " Love is love".( My child says.)
* Since God created homosexuals in a way they can't change even if they wanted( some still try to or wish they could change themselves) how could God not be in favour of the way He created a person?
This leads me to question the concept of "God has created you just the way he wants you to be".
He wants and loves you fully, that's still true and also that He can make any bad thing into a blessing!
But is it true that He wants someone to be born blind or infertile or deaf or poor or sick, for ex? Isn't that more likely a result of the fall, of evil and sin in a way?
I'm not so sure anymore.
*In my very, very secular country it can soon be illegal to even have a conversation about homosexuality. You're supposed to not even register if a person is hbtq or not! Any BEHAVIOR must be seen as perfectly normal and fully accepted.
As soon as you question anything or (not to mention ) are somewhat against it, it's a hate crime. It's concidered trying to convert a person and is, accordingly to the UN, a kind of torture..😮
The Bible no longer has authority over most homosexual christians- in this matter.
I've been called a fanatic homophobic extremist cult leader from my own christian child. 😢
I'm not. Just a christian that wishes that God acceptes homosexual lifestyles, it would be much better for our family.
But I really can't find that He does! My will( or anybody elses will) doesn't change that.
HE IS GOD ALLMIGHTY. We are not.
It's makes me furious 😡 and very sad 😩 that the devil has managed to make the question of homosexuality (and gender dysphoria) so sufficatingly big!😱
Churches and families split.
People are not saved by the gospel because all they know about christianity/christians is that " they are crazy hateful homophobes".
Jesus, help!❤ HOLY SPIRIT COME!🙏
I'm a gay Christian adult whose parents have struggled with accepting it even as an orientation. I hear you and it's truly awful when it divides a family. It sounds like you're hurting a lot and your child is hurting a whole lot too. I'll pray you find some peace over this and that God leads you in being a loving parent. Please feel free to ask me anything about my experience. I'd encourage you to let your child talk about their experiences and truly hear them and enter into their experience as much as possible. Even if you still disagree. Hearing someone can be healing.
Dear Christian,I sincerely hope this helps
I approach to talk to you as a sinner myself saved by grace
It is my thinking that no arguments ,no conversations ,talks , the Bible or anything will able to change your child's percepective
For his mind to be in obedience to God he must be *born again.* Or regenerated or as Jesus says , Bc unregenerated mind is enmity against God .
Reacting to your points--
* We have to exist in Jesus, make him our existence, if we rely on any other thing we shall fail and be in wrong in god's eyes/try to tell him this
* Only a regenerate mind can identify sin and wage war against it and hate it as god hates sin because that loves Christ above all things / so that regeneration should be the top priority
* God is love but tell him that it is he that defines love not the morden world true love is based on his terms not our feelings thoughts . 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a (ESV) Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. ////.
* love is about receiving (pleasures or anything) but about giving to others
* As Jesus gave himself/ he is true love/ from him we should learn love// please tell your child that
*Yes god created us but not for the desires of the body/ but for himself - to be pure and holy in his service
*Everyone is a sinner therefore against god
God is not in favour of anybody it is WE That have to be in HIS FAVOUR .
* In this fallen world where bad things are because of humans /
* he will turn it in a blessing will be THAT HE IS THE BLESSING. Sun can never be a blessing he is / not homosexual desires
* BTW either homosexual or hetrosexual all lusts are bad because love is about giving not satisfying them
* Yes infirmity is because of the fall
* But everyone has a different cross to carry he will deliver everyone who believe by his might
* if we are born in a certain way we should find comfort in that god ways are never to hurt us / he knows what's right for us / because he is all knowing he has a plan to deliver us from all our troubles/ these things should make us fall on him more and more / isn't he the blessing and isn't it the aim of Christian's life
0Christ saves / he save us from hell and misery in this life
Tell your child about the torments of hell and life without Christ and redemption and that it the FAITHFUL PATIENCENT hand of GOD that stands between us and hell in any instant
We must turn from sin and punishment WHICH WOULD BE RIGHTFULLY OURS if we don't.
He can only be saved by faith in Christ/ by his example/ you just tell him about Jesus and his life love and mercy and his death and resurrection. Patiently again and again.
Jesus will save your child why because he loves him and he is MIGHTY to save .
Therefore PRAY pray pray to him that he will save him and I will too
Never doubt his power his omnipotence to save he can create circumstances or save by ways unfathomable to us I mean he is al MIGHTY
I hope it helps god bless.
@@spoonsandspades Thank you! We all want to stay a close family. We all agree on that we still love each other and hate this conflict.
We talk because we know it's necessary, but it's not easy. Hurt feelings on both sides.
In my eyes my adult christian child is definentely a homosexual and I neither can or try to change that. It's no threat to me.
I hope for a future where we can just agree on disagreeing. Live and let live.
A future where my" opinion" is as much respected as liberal homosexual christians opinions are?
I'm liberal in other christian/ theological matters. Not a conservative or a literal interpreter.
Right now my child says that I have to interpret the Bible, on this subject, the liberal way or he/ she might break up with me/us...
Feels like emotional black mailing?
My/our hearts and arms are still full of love and open towards him/her.❤️ But it's not received that way. 😞To him/her loving seem to mean not or never questioning anything.
No closed doors on my/our behalf. If God tells me- very obviously- that I'm wrong I will gladly change. I haven't seen or heard that same attitude from my child though.
Only God can help us. My/our respect for Him is what causes this painful conflict.
I can only wait, pray and try really hard to be the bigger person. Since I'm no saint it's a struggle.🙁
I'm really impressed that you have watched this video (?) and of the kind way you've reached out to me.😍
In Christ we are one.💕
@@asmitmehra7373 Thank you, it helps to be heard. And your prayers are much needed.😊
I should have been more clear about what kind of christian my child is.
He/she used to be a born again christian- claims to still be- said that God comes before everything else. Was a worship leader. Went to Bible school. Worked abroad in a church. Was often asked to be on the leadership team on christian youth camps. We used to pray and talk about the Bible and christian books for hours during many years.
Therefore my child has a lot of knowledge and experience of being an active living christian. And still....he/she can find a way to read those Bible verses so that he/she is certain he/she is still very much in Gods favour...
Who am I to preach to my child? Or to judge?
Or to say " No God hasn't okeyed your lifestyle!"?
And ALL sins ARE forgiven!
Homosexuality won't keep anyone out of heaven- and heterosexuality won't get anyone in to heaven.
It's very complicated.
I want my child to keep being close with Jesus. Most of all that.
You're in a difficult place - a place that my friend was in and she ended up leaving Christianity instead of just leaving her church. It must keep you awake at night sometimes and hurt your heart. May I suggest another view? I tend to look at the big items in the Bible - greed, love of power, abusing power imbalances, desiring status or thinking yourself better than others, not caring for others, loving money, etc. My view is that when I feel I successfully study how God sees these and then try to live these views, only then will I tackle the more minor items in the Bible (those not given a large degree of attention). I'd suggest that you could find commonality with your son by concentrating on issues that are discussed again and again and again in the Bible and leave that contentious item until later. Concentrate on seeing and caring for the poor, respecting and listening to the powerless, making laws that helped those who need help, welcoming the immigrant, sharing money (Bible Project has a great video on that), opening your eyes to the structural systems in our land that keep the poor poor and benefit the wealthy, etc.
How is living as homosexual immoral at its basic - it’s that like saying living in heterosexual relationships isn’t a sin.
What a brilliant conversation!!
Not gonna lie, it's wild that someone as educated as NT Wright in biblical scholarship, is this conservative with regards to "sex ethics". You would think he would have a bit more nuance due to the academic understanding of "arsenokoitai"; or the ever changing beliefs/"negotiation" in Christianity (e.g. majority current rejection of slavery), etc. Especially, considering the progressive movement in the Anglican church as well; which has resulted in the Church of England national assembly letting priests bless same-sex marriages and civil partnerships.
Not at all he's a Christian who loves the Lord and believes that the Bible is inspired by God. The Bible in both the Old and New Testaments is clear and explicit that homosexual behaviour is sin.
@@michaelhudson6359 1. There are many self identified Christians who reject the conservative/traditional position on "sex ethics"; even particularly many members and clergyman in the "Church of England" that NT Wright is a part of.
2. Assuming you're correct, the Bible is also "clear" and "explicit" about its allowance of slavery in both the Old and New Testament, yet most modern Christians rightfully negotiate away that archaic standard of morality. The same logic can be applied to any outdated principles that the Bible may espouse about homosexuality being a "sin" or "bad" in any way.
But God took on flesh, became one of us, was tortured and died to pay for our sins because he loves all of us sinners. ❤
Current rejection of slavery? What about ‘let my people go’, or the fact that abolition of the slave trade was started by a Quaker Christian.
@samargles I don't deny that there are Christians who historically, and currently use the Bible/their conviction as a tool of liberation for the past slaves, and current oppressed people. That doesn't change the fact that at one point in time, the "MAJORITY" membership of Christianity overwhelmingly had at the very least, accepted slavery until recently (abolition/abolition movement). Keep in mind that Christianity is roughly 2,000 years old; and during the height of the slave trade, most of those colonizers, slave traders, slave owners, and clergy/churches who preached in favor of slavery identified as Christians.
Clearly, the majority belief in Christianity has progressed since then. Hence, that is an example of beliefs evolving over time within the general consensus of Christianity.
Can someone explain why gay love is wrong other than “the book says so?”
Maybe that’s reason enough if it doesn’t affect your life, but on a practical level, it’s going to be hard to reach people if you can’t justify the claim on its own merits.
He seems to answer your question at 12:41. But podcasts aren't always the best place to get comprehensive answers.
It is a great mistake to reduce everything to a subjective opinion.. This subject like others has an objective perception founded upon the Word of God .
RE: Transgender
I would like to ask anyone that categorically opposes gender affirming care (both medical and social) a question:
When gender affirming care (which the evidence suggests) is currently the only available option for many people to improve their quality of life and in some instances prevent them from self-harm, isn't gender affirming care the right way to go? Isn't the protection of transgender individuals the number one priority?
Assuming that transgender persons have always existed, there is no evidence that gender affirming care improves quality of life and is the only option.
@@katiemiaana To my knowledge the current state of psychological studies is that gender affirming care does in fact improve quality of life in that way.
The topic of detrans is certainly relevant and we obviously need to find the right methods to tell if someone just has a temporary identity crisis or is indeed trans. However, as far as I know the relative number of people that are detrans and do in fact regret transitioning is very low. That doesn't mean these people are irrelevant, but it's not that strong of an argument. Besides: Is it ok to prevent a person from transitioning because some persons might regret it?
But let's stay on the individual level because that's what my question was originally about: If an individual person suffers greatly due to gender dysphoria, they get diagnosed with this dysphoria by one or multiple professionals, possibly go through multiple years of psychotherapy which doesn't result in a significant improvement of quality of life and the only method that's proven itself to be effective is gender affirming care and transitioning - why oppose it?
There's no one that cares more for transgender people than Jesus. His demonstration of deep and wide love through his death is testament to that. So, how would Jesus care for a transgendered person? I also don't mean our own version of Jesus but Jesus as He would. The Call to the woman caught in a sexual relationship with a man who was not her husband (John 8) is quite telling. Jesus doesn't kill her, but gives her a chance to walk in line with Him and become like Him. He said, "go forward and sin no more".
Protecting people from incorrect thinking is important. If people don't think wrong, they won't do wrong.
@@M..................... That's easier said than done. You can't just ignore a person's gender dysphoria and hope it'll go away if they just pray to Jesus. That reminds me of those Christian groups that tried to "convert" gay people. You know how that ended? Many of those individuals harmed themselves and eventually took their own lives. As I said: Currently the only efficient way to treat trans individuals seems to be gender affirming care.
Stick to historical biblical research, Tom. Brilliant there. Leave moral theology to moral theologians and active pastors who actually deal with these issues.
I've know a trans guy for years. He just retired from Aamco
five minutes in and i'm disappointed. you want discourse, yet you don't enter discourse in good faith. you have presupposed answers and reject any argument that explains why you might be wrong.
Can anyone identify the Chrono-watch NT is wearing? Looks beautiful and expensive.
LGBTQ+ rights!!!!! 🥰
What rights do they need that they don't already have?
@@danw9464 how about living free of discrimination 😃
@@stapidomcazfaikeurmom4935 have you not heard of the equality act?
@@ericsonofjohn9384 just cause something is a law, doesn't mean people don't get discriminated against in their daily lives. I suppose you don't think racism is a problem either? As a person of colour I can tell you, it is. Just as discrimination is something LGBTQ+ people face
@@stapidomcazfaikeurmom4935 you responded to a comment about “rights”, you buffoon. Black people and gays have the same right to not be discriminated against as everyone else, hence why I mentioned the EA - which you’ve clearly never bothered to research.
The rest is just attention-seeking. You live in the freest, most equal society that has ever existed on earth, and you spend your time complaining about being victimised.
What discrimination do you face?
He’s a smart guy but surprises me a educated man would be a bible legalist
Exactly. I was actually confused, because not only is the academic consensus on this issue pretty nuanced (e.g, "arsenokoitai" meaning), but also the Anglican church has a pretty sizable progressive theology movement in the UK.
@@MrballerizeHe understands the clear meaning of the text. As ever we like to think we are enlightened and know better than God. We would rather redefine and cancel a lot of sins than have God become a man and die to pay for the forgiveness of our sin.
Does this world not show signs of decay -- evidence of some great cosmic event which has corrupted God's good creation? We face the problem of evil not simply in our experience of natural disasters, but also in disease and the consequences of human choice. Clearly, we live in a fallen world, which "groans" (Romans 8:22) as it awaits God's promised redemption. Viewed from a creation perspective (unless one wishes to normalize the chaos), we are presented with the ideal, the present reality, and the future hope. We accept the diagnosis of sin's effect in many areas of life (even relationships) but hesitate to admit that sexuality has also been touched by it? This is difficult, and Wright highlights the importance of a pastoral response-- but so is cancer, the death of children difficult to understand and live with, but is likewise encompassed by the hope of a complete salvation.
As Christians we must bear in mind Gods standards regarding worship. We are in this but not of this world. In our conversations around Gods truth it is imperative that we must not compromise our faith by pleasing our hearers of what they want hear but speak against sin. This is what Christ taught us to do. He even called those who were trading in the temple, he chased out and called them vipers. If we love them, tell them what they doing is wrong. No beating around bush, sin has no mercy. He came to steal, kill and destroy but Christ came to give Life.❤
LGBTQ+ = Let's Get Biden to Quite + Harris
We all k ow what the Bible says. God never changes His will and values.
Why should I care what the Bible says ?
Do you believe slavery is moral?
@@robinhood20253, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations, caused by poor breeding strategies.
🤡
To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
Except when he wants to harden hearts to show his Gordship
@@robinhood20253, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations, caused by poor breeding strategies.
🤡
To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
No need for Scripture or the bible because God loves and accepts you anyway, the bible is 100 % positive, lovely and accepting of all human behaviour, and the best is there are no negative verses , just all wonderful comforting and reassuring words. Its so clear in its instructions that no need to ask N T Right anything...and I love how the interviewer asks NT Right is this your own academic interpretation or has this answer been verified by the Holy Spirit, just hang on a minute, who us the Holy Spirit ! No academic ever mentions it after all...😄 🤣 😂
Tom no beating about the bush, Romans 1:27 to those baptised Tom, as 1:31 covenantbreakers , "without natural affection", 2:8 unrighteousness and wrath.
Hot topics? These are the most boring, played out topics ever. They've been talked about to DEATH on Christian channels and everywhere else. Can we move onto something else please, to topics like Christianity and economics, growth of Christianity in the non-Western world, contemporary miracles, Christianity and mental health
He's so word salad-ish. Just wish he'd give a direct answer
What is the meaning of Leviticus 18 ?
a divine condemnation of erotic, same-sex relationships.
... You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. However according to modern day values the Church believes God has got it wrong 🤔
What is the meaning of Leviticus 19? A diving condemnation of cutting hair at the sides and clipping beards. However, according to modern day values the church believes God has got it wrong 🤔
Nothing new here.
Genesis 18 & 19.
Good Girl! 👌
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
😂😂😂😂quality @@ReverendDr.Thomas
According to the so-called New Testament Jesus was what Jews refer to as a Fageleh. Or a non-Heterosexual male. In John 13: 23 & 25 the original Greek grammar tells us the true nature of this extremely special relationship between Jesus and his "Beloved" disciple young John. In the ancient world the term "Beloved" was used for the younger receptive partner in a male same-sex love relationship. Like the "Beloved" of Emperor Hadrian whose name was Antinous. Then there is the body language at the last supper between Jesus and youngest disciple John. It is clearly homoerotic. Then there is that naked slave boy that Jesus was alone with in the middle of the night. Under the moon. While all the disciples slept in the Garden Of Gethsemane. And if you don't understand that Jesus and John were lovers rather than good fishing buddies. Then what happens at the crucifixion between Jesus and his Lover and his Mother simply makes no sense. Because if Jesus couldn't protect his own Mother from up in Studio 54 with only the best people. Then he would have to be a really impotent God. Why do you think that he never said a single word about either abortion, gender, or sexual orientation. Because he didn't want to be a hypocrite.💙
Wow. Someone drank the whole jug of Kool-Aid. Or some other strong substance.
So here's a little dose of reality for you:
"And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."" - Matthew 19:3-6
Right there in the words of Jesus Himself, defining the design for marriage as He upheld it. One man and one woman. Not sure if you just came to troll with your highly offensive post, but if you truly believe what you wrote, you need to do some deeper study.
Before faith in Christ you need baptism by the Father, because you love God, and want to bring in God's righteousness. I have a Ytube series 'Myths in so-called Christianity'.
I just really need to say this again. The church isn’t just wrong, it is IRRELEVANT, so there is no reason for anyone to get worked up about the church position because it matters about as much as an argument of whether leprechauns are better than unicorns.
@@MartyMcFly1085 TRUE!
2.38 billion people around the world are Christians... These discussions are relevant to them and pretty important I would say. If you're atheist then obviously it's not relevant to you personally and so I'd recommend watching something else 🤷🏼♀️
Except that God became a man and suffered and died to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead to show that death and sin had been defeated. So apart from that I suppose it's irrelevant.
To equate belief in God to leprechauns is to claim that many of the greatest minds in the history of science, philosophy, and mathematics were inferior to yours. Newton, Descartes, Pascal, and countless other intellectual giants are among those who you just dismissed as idiots, and by implication you claim to be smarter than them. Vain beyond belief. I do not present that to argue that religion must be true, but just to highlight the false equivalence you made and how vain a thing it is to say.
It is irrelevant for the majority outside, but for those inside the church, especially young people growing up in Christian families, this is of vital importance. They need the church to change, because not all of them can just get out and leave.