(this is a bit long but I recommend the read) Digital games can be dumped in in the same way physical is. This is how digital is being preserved right now and is how the entire 3DS library is being preserved including the digital only releases. However this requires Homebrew/console modding in order to accomplish this. As console security become tighter and tighter Im not sure if the Homebrew/hacking community community is going to be able to keep up and continue to find new vulnerabilities. The Switch got lucky for having a built in vulnerability right at the beginning of its life that was built into the consoles hardware. We got luck this time but Im not sure if we will be as lucky for the next Nintendo consoles. Another issue is the legality of modern game dumping. Game dumping today requires bypassing decryption which is considered a Technological Measure by law. Game companies could use the DMCA to argue that game dumping in of itself is illegal NO MATTER YOUR REASONS FOR DOING SO by siting the laws that state that bypassing a technological measure is illegal. Fortunately their are exemptions to these laws that can be used as a counter argument, but the fact that companies can even argue this in the first place is terrifying. It all gets worse when you realize that game dumping is required for the legal process of acquiring roms to play on an emulator. If game dumping was illegal emulators would become useless. Fortunately none of these arguments have ever been tested in court making game dumping legally grey but it might not be for long. Nintendo got close when they sued Tropical Haze for using the decryption keys for the Switch in Yuzu (Even though the user had to go out of their way to get the keys themselves). Nintendo argues that Yuzu using decryption keys is considered bypassing a technological measure allowing people to "unlawfully" play video games on unauthorized hardware. If Nintendo would have went to court against TH and won it would have set legal precedent for emulators not being able to use decryption keys and would have possibly made game dumping illegal. The keys are important because they are what decrypt the game. Without out the keys you cannot play the game so it can not be preserved properly. These are points that many people don't talk about that I think NEED to be addressed by the legal system. The laws surrounding these things are outdated and still not very clear. Good video though.
Oh shoot, you can dump them digitally? I'll have to look more into that, I thought for sure that the physical method was either the only feasible way, and/or doing it digitally had a ton more roadblocks in comparison (Or those roadblocks could still be there, but it sounds like it's still feasible). Anything to do with console modding would be way out of my league though, I'm more of a software guy than a hardware guy. I'd probably break something if I tried that haha (At least if it's as hands on with the system's internals that I'm imagining it is). You're not kidding when you say that any company being able to use the DMCA and citing a technological measure bypass is scary. It sounds like we need to avoid any court hearings on this as much as possible. Originally, I thought that should a court case come up, the final verdict could end up benefiting preservation more. Given what you pointed out thought, on top of the risks of what could happen should a negative precedent be set through a negative ruling, it makes sense why you're saying things like it's never been tested fortunately/why a legal battle is something to avoid. I feel kind of silly now for not even thinking about the keys much now that you mention it haha. We could have everything else needed for the dumping process, but without the key, we can't even get in to begin with. Should've mentioned something about those in the video now that I think about it. Ah well, too late to go back and change that now, and I'm not gonna delete what I've got here. This was definitely worth the long read, you brought up a lot of good points here. Thanks for taking the time to type all this out not just for me, but for anyone else who takes the time to read this!
Im curious though if you can pin my comment though? I think more people need to be aware of this as its one of if not THE biggest hurdles when it comes to preserving the games themselves. Game dumping allows us to copy the data of a game disk or cartridge to an external storage medium. This is a good thing because the game data (the rom) on the disks and cartridges will rot away with the disk or cartridge it came on due to the passage of time (digital games rot away with the console they were bought on). By having the game data be put onto a SD card or USB, we can make it actually possible to backup and preserve games properly because you can always just make a copy of it since it can now be put on an computer. You cannot make copies if the data is stuck on its proprietary storage medium , game dumping is what gets the data off of that medium.
@@ProjectionProjects2.7182 Comment has been pinned! I went ahead and pinned it right after I sent my first reply since I thought all of this info should be read by as many people as possible like you said. Once again, it was worth the long read with all of the info you provided! I do know about the gradual deterioration of disks and cartridges, which sucks since there's literally nothing that can be done to stop that. Like you said, it's due to the passage of time, and nothing can be done to stop the march of time itself...a scary thought. We may not be able to preserve the actual disks and cartridges, but the data that's in them can with the external storage options we got, yeah.
The first part is just flat out wrong. Preservation has nothing to do with installing a game from a bluray or over the internet. It has to do with digital rights management software that is built into the game regardless. As a digital only PC player, I can say that I own all the games that I pirated and bought from GOG because they have the DRM removed, so I can copy and mod the game as many times as I want and it will work forever without internet.
Thanks for you comment. It's really important that we distinguish these things, because physical media is practically gone and any battle on that front is already lost. The fight worth fighting has to do, as you brilliantly put it, with rights over digital content.
Your optimism inspires me man, I wish I could like a video more than once. Hopefully, one day, programmers can reverse engineer the server code to have these games online for everyone to play.
Even retro games are under threat, now they're in the hands of collectors, becoming expensive and the refusal to sell legal DRM free digital copies at a fair price for emulators. The likes of Nintendo would rather second hand game sales were banned, physical games didn't exist and you paid a monthly fee for games you don't own and can be pulled at any time. If Ubisoft succeeds in memory holing The Crew, other video game companies will follow suit. Digital book burning.
Digital vs Physical is the wrong argument. It's about DRM vs no DRM. If the game has DRM, it's ILLEGAL to tamper with it in many countries around the world. It doesn't matter whether that DRM is on a physical product or a digital one. On the other hand, if I buy a digital product that has no DRM, I can burn it to disk and suddenly I have a physcial copy too. And doing so will be 100% legal. Also, depending on the DRM used, it's possible to make a physical copy of a game stop working. Even one that is single player and doesn't require an "always on" internet connection. Sometimes it's as easy as shutting down a server. That's a real possibility if the DRM is Denuvo, for example. Some say it's better to take to the high seas to get your games. And I mostly agree with that sentiment. But then you're trusting the person who broke the DRM not to add something malicious of their own. That's not always going to be the case. If a Dev/Publisher will release a game in a DRM free state in the first place, I'd say that's the better source for your DRM free game even though you have to pay for it.
I don't know for years parents have complained and lobbied against video games for years constantly blames the worlds ill's on them, unless it something people of a certain age love and isn't seen as a waist of time I don't see congress caring to bring this consumer product problem to the table. Doesn't matter if it creates a lot of jobs or how much money it makes if they deem it harmful to society and they have they'll be glad to kill it.
i've stopped buying games, if its a singleplayer game, its gonna get cracked. if its multiplayer, i might need the online and if im not just going to steamfix it then i'll at most buy the base and then steamfix all the DLC, like fkn Assetto with its $100 of DLC. gotta say, its been fkn NICE knowing im not playing their 'games' anymore, nor am i funding corrupt fks like Snail Games with Ark 1.5.
Really sucks. Ive personally always been vocal about the decline of gaming and these companies greed along with the cons of digital over physical ownership. I’m wondering, when you say crash if its like an employee thing or like workload(s) exceeds deadlines
When I say crash I'm talking about a little bit from both. AAA companies often work their employees to extreme limits with harsh deadlines, harsh working conditions, etc. Then when the game launches, a large part of those employees get let go so that profits can be larger this quarter/year than the last. More people catching wind of what working in the AAA space is like means not as many will want to work, which means fewer new employees to hire when companies want to bring people onboard for a project. Those fewer employees still have those harsh deadlines, more of them will probably be let go, the cycle begins anew. I think that eventually, if things keep going the way that they're going, a total collapse could happen where players don't buy the games, AAA companies will only realize what's happening after their greed has pushed them to the breaking point, they all then scramble to recoup their money through mass firings, halting projects on games, etc. Tl;dr, growing workloads being put on shrinking teams with consumers more on the look out for shady business practices meaning fewer sales if they see something is up.
4:01, i'll have to look into what i'm about to say myself, but was Fable 3 released both ways, because from what i know it is completely unplayable on PC currently if you're looking to go legit. There's a new.. is it new.. problem, on a PC, you can't even ACTIVATE or install your game if the authentication servers are down.
Have you heard of Overkill's TWD, perfect example of how bad it can be, this one stung PC players. As i was saying to the poster of the post you pinned tho, we had ways around that. we're now all playing on a leaked dev build with a steamfix, still playing online, the games pretty close to dead now, but if you CAN find people that want to play, you still can, i don't see that happening on a console you havent backdoor'd the F out of.
7:00 yeah damn i dunno bud, its a good point about the modchips, a modded original xbox man, i had one in 2009 and yeah talk about feeling like you had the coolest toy ever lol, it was so much fun, electrical surge took it out years later sadly, but to my point, i've looked over the years and.. even now, has the 360 even been chipped, according to a video you yourself might find interesting, it has been, but i think it took a while and i don't think we're even close with the ONE let alone the XS. It's like yeah we might eventually get there, but i think the more consoles that get released, WHEN is eventually going to become IF, it gets hacked. that video btw was, Why a Hacked Xbox 360 is STILL awesome in 202 by MVG. just the start seemed of interest to the topic, talking about 360 life ending and digital stuff eventually dying. also the topic of preservation is still in discussion later.
2:34 Orrrrrr, it's 2013 and you have to still do the lineup for GTA physical, only to have a fkload of downloads waiting when you got home at 12:05 anyway lol, that was me back then. Oh and yeah no drive home, i lived across the road from the, what you'd call a mall, and EB is 3 shops in from the entrance. easiest it could be and still a pain in the a lol
(this is a bit long but I recommend the read)
Digital games can be dumped in in the same way physical is. This is how digital is being preserved right now and is how the entire 3DS library is being preserved including the digital only releases. However this requires Homebrew/console modding in order to accomplish this. As console security become tighter and tighter Im not sure if the Homebrew/hacking community community is going to be able to keep up and continue to find new vulnerabilities. The Switch got lucky for having a built in vulnerability right at the beginning of its life that was built into the consoles hardware. We got luck this time but Im not sure if we will be as lucky for the next Nintendo consoles.
Another issue is the legality of modern game dumping. Game dumping today requires bypassing decryption which is considered a Technological Measure by law. Game companies could use the DMCA to argue that game dumping in of itself is illegal NO MATTER YOUR REASONS FOR DOING SO by siting the laws that state that bypassing a technological measure is illegal. Fortunately their are exemptions to these laws that can be used as a counter argument, but the fact that companies can even argue this in the first place is terrifying. It all gets worse when you realize that game dumping is required for the legal process of acquiring roms to play on an emulator. If game dumping was illegal emulators would become useless. Fortunately none of these arguments have ever been tested in court making game dumping legally grey but it might not be for long.
Nintendo got close when they sued Tropical Haze for using the decryption keys for the Switch in Yuzu (Even though the user had to go out of their way to get the keys themselves). Nintendo argues that Yuzu using decryption keys is considered bypassing a technological measure allowing people to "unlawfully" play video games on unauthorized hardware. If Nintendo would have went to court against TH and won it would have set legal precedent for emulators not being able to use decryption keys and would have possibly made game dumping illegal. The keys are important because they are what decrypt the game. Without out the keys you cannot play the game so it can not be preserved properly.
These are points that many people don't talk about that I think NEED to be addressed by the legal system. The laws surrounding these things are outdated and still not very clear.
Good video though.
Oh shoot, you can dump them digitally? I'll have to look more into that, I thought for sure that the physical method was either the only feasible way, and/or doing it digitally had a ton more roadblocks in comparison (Or those roadblocks could still be there, but it sounds like it's still feasible). Anything to do with console modding would be way out of my league though, I'm more of a software guy than a hardware guy. I'd probably break something if I tried that haha (At least if it's as hands on with the system's internals that I'm imagining it is).
You're not kidding when you say that any company being able to use the DMCA and citing a technological measure bypass is scary. It sounds like we need to avoid any court hearings on this as much as possible. Originally, I thought that should a court case come up, the final verdict could end up benefiting preservation more. Given what you pointed out thought, on top of the risks of what could happen should a negative precedent be set through a negative ruling, it makes sense why you're saying things like it's never been tested fortunately/why a legal battle is something to avoid.
I feel kind of silly now for not even thinking about the keys much now that you mention it haha. We could have everything else needed for the dumping process, but without the key, we can't even get in to begin with. Should've mentioned something about those in the video now that I think about it. Ah well, too late to go back and change that now, and I'm not gonna delete what I've got here.
This was definitely worth the long read, you brought up a lot of good points here. Thanks for taking the time to type all this out not just for me, but for anyone else who takes the time to read this!
Im curious though if you can pin my comment though? I think more people need to be aware of this as its one of if not THE biggest hurdles when it comes to preserving the games themselves. Game dumping allows us to copy the data of a game disk or cartridge to an external storage medium. This is a good thing because the game data (the rom) on the disks and cartridges will rot away with the disk or cartridge it came on due to the passage of time (digital games rot away with the console they were bought on). By having the game data be put onto a SD card or USB, we can make it actually possible to backup and preserve games properly because you can always just make a copy of it since it can now be put on an computer. You cannot make copies if the data is stuck on its proprietary storage medium , game dumping is what gets the data off of that medium.
oh I see you pinned it. Thank you for doing that I had to reload the page to see it.
@@ProjectionProjects2.7182 Comment has been pinned! I went ahead and pinned it right after I sent my first reply since I thought all of this info should be read by as many people as possible like you said. Once again, it was worth the long read with all of the info you provided!
I do know about the gradual deterioration of disks and cartridges, which sucks since there's literally nothing that can be done to stop that. Like you said, it's due to the passage of time, and nothing can be done to stop the march of time itself...a scary thought. We may not be able to preserve the actual disks and cartridges, but the data that's in them can with the external storage options we got, yeah.
@@ProjectionProjects2.7182 Sure thing! I pinned it right as you sent your follow up, coincidental timing there haha
The first part is just flat out wrong. Preservation has nothing to do with installing a game from a bluray or over the internet. It has to do with digital rights management software that is built into the game regardless. As a digital only PC player, I can say that I own all the games that I pirated and bought from GOG because they have the DRM removed, so I can copy and mod the game as many times as I want and it will work forever without internet.
Thanks for you comment. It's really important that we distinguish these things, because physical media is practically gone and any battle on that front is already lost. The fight worth fighting has to do, as you brilliantly put it, with rights over digital content.
Big mood. Long live the high seas
RIP Vimm's Lair. Nintendo, SEGA, and the ESA found them. Here's hoping somebody else can carry on the lost ROMs.
Your optimism inspires me man, I wish I could like a video more than once.
Hopefully, one day, programmers can reverse engineer the server code to have these games online for everyone to play.
Even retro games are under threat, now they're in the hands of collectors, becoming expensive and the refusal to sell legal DRM free digital copies at a fair price for emulators. The likes of Nintendo would rather second hand game sales were banned, physical games didn't exist and you paid a monthly fee for games you don't own and can be pulled at any time.
If Ubisoft succeeds in memory holing The Crew, other video game companies will follow suit. Digital book burning.
Physical medium rots was the reason I pick digital over physical(if digital also includes GOG or/and Abandonware games here)
Digital vs Physical is the wrong argument. It's about DRM vs no DRM. If the game has DRM, it's ILLEGAL to tamper with it in many countries around the world. It doesn't matter whether that DRM is on a physical product or a digital one. On the other hand, if I buy a digital product that has no DRM, I can burn it to disk and suddenly I have a physcial copy too. And doing so will be 100% legal.
Also, depending on the DRM used, it's possible to make a physical copy of a game stop working. Even one that is single player and doesn't require an "always on" internet connection. Sometimes it's as easy as shutting down a server. That's a real possibility if the DRM is Denuvo, for example. Some say it's better to take to the high seas to get your games. And I mostly agree with that sentiment. But then you're trusting the person who broke the DRM not to add something malicious of their own. That's not always going to be the case. If a Dev/Publisher will release a game in a DRM free state in the first place, I'd say that's the better source for your DRM free game even though you have to pay for it.
What an underrated channel! Loved the video, subscribing as well
5:20 for PC peeps like me, that's already happened.
A physical copy is worthless if you need to say log into Games for Windows Live (which doesn't exist anymore!) or other such services! :(
I don't know for years parents have complained and lobbied against video games for years constantly blames the worlds ill's on them, unless it something people of a certain age love and isn't seen as a waist of time I don't see congress caring to bring this consumer product problem to the table. Doesn't matter if it creates a lot of jobs or how much money it makes if they deem it harmful to society and they have they'll be glad to kill it.
i've stopped buying games, if its a singleplayer game, its gonna get cracked.
if its multiplayer, i might need the online and if im not just going to steamfix it then i'll at most buy the base and then steamfix all the DLC, like fkn Assetto with its $100 of DLC.
gotta say, its been fkn NICE knowing im not playing their 'games' anymore, nor am i funding corrupt fks like Snail Games with Ark 1.5.
Really sucks. Ive personally always been vocal about the decline of gaming and these companies greed along with the cons of digital over physical ownership. I’m wondering, when you say crash if its like an employee thing or like workload(s) exceeds deadlines
When I say crash I'm talking about a little bit from both. AAA companies often work their employees to extreme limits with harsh deadlines, harsh working conditions, etc. Then when the game launches, a large part of those employees get let go so that profits can be larger this quarter/year than the last. More people catching wind of what working in the AAA space is like means not as many will want to work, which means fewer new employees to hire when companies want to bring people onboard for a project. Those fewer employees still have those harsh deadlines, more of them will probably be let go, the cycle begins anew. I think that eventually, if things keep going the way that they're going, a total collapse could happen where players don't buy the games, AAA companies will only realize what's happening after their greed has pushed them to the breaking point, they all then scramble to recoup their money through mass firings, halting projects on games, etc. Tl;dr, growing workloads being put on shrinking teams with consumers more on the look out for shady business practices meaning fewer sales if they see something is up.
4:01, i'll have to look into what i'm about to say myself, but was Fable 3 released both ways, because from what i know it is completely unplayable on PC currently if you're looking to go legit.
There's a new.. is it new.. problem, on a PC, you can't even ACTIVATE or install your game if the authentication servers are down.
Have you heard of Overkill's TWD, perfect example of how bad it can be, this one stung PC players.
As i was saying to the poster of the post you pinned tho, we had ways around that. we're now all playing on a leaked dev build with a steamfix, still playing online, the games pretty close to dead now, but if you CAN find people that want to play, you still can, i don't see that happening on a console you havent backdoor'd the F out of.
The Day Physical Media die i stop play modern video games they trash anyways but sometimes there is a decent game, i stuck to my PS2 and PS3 Gems then
7:00 yeah damn i dunno bud, its a good point about the modchips, a modded original xbox man, i had one in 2009 and yeah talk about feeling like you had the coolest toy ever lol, it was so much fun, electrical surge took it out years later sadly, but to my point, i've looked over the years and.. even now, has the 360 even been chipped, according to a video you yourself might find interesting, it has been, but i think it took a while and i don't think we're even close with the ONE let alone the XS. It's like yeah we might eventually get there, but i think the more consoles that get released, WHEN is eventually going to become IF, it gets hacked.
that video btw was, Why a Hacked Xbox 360 is STILL awesome in 202 by MVG. just the start seemed of interest to the topic, talking about 360 life ending and digital stuff eventually dying. also the topic of preservation is still in discussion later.
One for the algorithm
What game is this at the beginning of this video?
need for speed hot pursuit (2010)
0:02 which car game is that_
Need for Speed Hot Pursuit [2010]
2:34 Orrrrrr, it's 2013 and you have to still do the lineup for GTA physical, only to have a fkload of downloads waiting when you got home at 12:05 anyway lol, that was me back then.
Oh and yeah no drive home, i lived across the road from the, what you'd call a mall, and EB is 3 shops in from the entrance. easiest it could be and still a pain in the a lol