M+ is already a system that has canabalized the concept of a dungeon, trying to make Torghast+ would be an absolute mistake as it doesn't address the problem of a mandatory weekly chore for power progression. Even in its most basic form it should still try to at least engage the player, because if they expect players to do it every single week for 2+ years and its dull after the first run its going to essentially be another system everyone is going to hate like Torghast like Island Expeditions like Warfronts.
They should implement a practice raid that unlocks after each mythic race. The practice raid would be solo and basically mimics each boss encounter, teaching you all the mechanics that you have to look out for in your spec. No loot involved, just purely for learning raids. I think that would help a lot of people who learn from experience over watching RUclips videos, and it would save time for those who already know the raid mechanics in actual raids.
You'd be surprised how many players are going to love this because they don't raid or don't do mythic+. You guys do raids and are expecting mechanics in everything, but a huge portion of the player base do not and this will be enough of a challenge for them.
Matt hit the nail on the head @22:43. "How do you scale difficulty for World of Warcraft? You add more mechanics" This. Needs. To. Change. Solo encounters should be mechanically complete from the get go, difficulty should come from the severity of failing those mechanics. T1 Delves could be that you can literally ignore all the mechanics and powwow to the end, but T11 Delves should be a case of, do all the mechanics with a very high success rate or you die with gear reducing the required success rate but never eliminating it.
Just keep in mind that just because this isn’t a moderate challenge for you it could be for a large portion of the player base. People who do high keys and heroic raids play at a level not really comparable to the casual word-content/occasion LFR running crowd. A huge number of players don’t use optimal specs, rotations, or even know how to properly utilize their utility. Even a lot of them that do simply aren’t good enough to run heroic level content. If this content put at that level a majority of players simply won’t engage with it. Not saying there shouldn’t be something for the more hardcore player base though, they just shouldent gate keep it too hard.
Someone said these are Lost Sectors from Destiny, and they basically are. Lost Sectors have 3 difficulties - normal, legendary, and master. Legendary and Master Lost Sectors are fun and difficult, especially when playing solo, which is also encouraged with additional drops and exotic gear. Delves can absolutely be fine with tuned difficulty and a COUPLE extra mechanics. Don’t bloat it, but don’t leave it exactly the same mechanically across all difficulties, and we’re all gucci.
I think this is at least the first step. I'm not going to lie, I would love to do raids by my self with AI, learn the abilities and what I need to do and practice. It could also be timed and a challenge for people to compete. I don't even care if there is no loot, OR at the end of the solo raids you get loot but it's probably the equivalent of the first boss on normal etc
@@Seresin81 I think this is a great take, having your Warband trade places with the AI in follower dungeons if you have a character that can fit the appropriate role
I want an entire parallel gearing pathway which is entirely solo. If this ends up being that, I will be happy. If the sweats get to ion and they keep gate keeping, I’ll just stay unsubbed
I hope the rewards are decent. My wife and I did so many island expeditions because of the butt-ton of transmog, pets, and mounts. Some of the mechanics were more fun than others, but the Easter egg hunt aspect and different enemy types made them a blast to repeat.
How awesome would be a wither like dungeon/delve where you control your PC + 4 others NPCs. Like follower dungeons where they fill the rolls but you advance those delve charaters instead of the withers. Then you can give reqards for completing it but you also can really change the way you interact. The delve will self scale rather than you outside world.
I personally don't want to see a timer implemented as me and a lot of guildmates are put off m+ *because* of the timer - it stops you from being able to stop and plan, and means you can't really talk or do anything fun other than rush through the dungeon. However, I do still want Delves to be a challenge that forces you to think about your next move. E.g. the candle mechanic should be set up so that you *just about* make it to more wax, and make you consider how you'll path through the dungeon, the webs should have areas where they're unavoidable that force you to plan out routes than minimise webs rather than completely avoid them, or even make you weigh up the cost:benefit of reaching a power-up. I think bringing in more reasons for things like good CC would be nice too, maybe some roaming mobs that hit like trucks but can be avoided and CC'd, to encourage people to take a more creative approach than just attacking everything.
Honestly this looks fine. This is the LFR level content for people who are learning new characters, are looking just to do the minimal to experience the story, and so forth. It seems about as hard as enemies in usual leveling content in most modern WoW expansions. What will matter is how hard the 7-10 difficulty range stuff is. I mean, nobody talks about Normal Dungeon balance, do we? We only talk about Mythic+ balance. Frankly even the Heroic dungeons rarely get balanced. They're there to get steamrolled if you know what you're doing.
Problem is what he said right at the start, you're locked behind being able to use keys to open the chests with decent loot once a week, like.. why? Loot acquisition in this game is trash already, all this time gating, rng shit, they need to get over this mindset where people want to run 700 dungeons/delves/raids to finally get geared, it's exhausting.
@@user-ns1mc6qh8otime gating kinda... not for hero track gear though. You can be in full hero gear day 1 of M+ being open... myth track gear and upgrading is where you run into huge bottlenecks (crafting as well)... its actually why M+ is extra problematic since its THE way to gear characters quickly. Delves and Raids need to allow players to do this as well.
It's because in an interview it was said that the developers do not want the impulse Community or miss it raining Community to fill that they have to do doves for their weekly progress @@user-ns1mc6qh8o
I think they could add mechanics that need things like interrupts, defensives, etc. if they had a limited pool of chosen/slotted abilities to fill in gaps in class/spec/role toolkit. I'm thinking something like in FFXIV's Eureka/BA and Bozja/DR/Dalriada.
I really wish they'd introduce or bring back a universal currency (IE Badge of Justice). Then you could make it where the final chest gives you like 5 (maybe +5-10 per bonus chest you unlock). It wouldn't make the CONTENT better per se but would give this a little more of a purpose for either casual gamers or the more hardcore to shore up the last few tokens for an item.
From as early as BlizzCon 2023 and based on my experience, I've been feeling Delves were looking like that thing Blizzard will discontinue after one expansion. They look too much like MoP scenarios and regular dungeons, when I think they should feel more like Torghast or Plunderstorm.
I feel like these would be really cool to find, like, behind a waterfall or something - and having like 50 different ones just littered around to find while exploring. Then maybe have a subset per season that you can scale up or something.
as of right now, you can get decent gear without M+, but of course if you want the best gear, you have to do group content. BUT you dont have to do AS MUCH M+.
You say they can’t put in specialized mechanics like interrupts because "what if a Holy Priest runs this." But what if delves used a Follower active ability button or Torghast style orbs to give *anyone* an interrupt for delves that need it? Interrupts are just an example here. Blizzard could totally think outside the box to make challenging solo content work, the Mage Tower or even Torghast proves it.
Treasure rooms need like 14 chests a few big goal piles you 'dig' through and stuff. You can just load them up with vendor greys and whatever just need to give the feeling of looting a fat room and then one chest in the cornor could be the locked one just poisition it to feel like that extra thing you got a key for.
I was more worried if the high level of delves will end up being too hard for me to progress. You know as a casual all I do in wow beyond leveling is world quests and LFR. It'd be great if casual content like those would give me gear progression. In every expansion when I can't progress further in casual content I go afk. I don't need the high end gear, I only want some progression, something to do.
As others already pointed out in the comments first couple levels are meant for leveling. Also you have to think who are the target audience of delves? It's the casual players who don't want to do group content. So of course they start from being very easy. After they've gotten some real player data how players do in delves. They're most likely gonna be retuned.
Yeah, these look just like questing and that’s already a thing. Not sure it deserves to be a “back of the box feature” unless it gets a lot more interesting.
Super easy solution to the high end delves. Steal the warding stones from vault runs in diablo 4. Just put a buff on us to encourage not hitting traps etc, and based on how many we have left at the end we can open more chests up for more loot.
Rare L take. You can't judge it by +2, so you shouldn't be trying. Also, casual content where a player can turn their brain off and not have to interrupt every mob is somethings this game needs to have casual players.
I see nothing but positive with delves. There’s 9 more difficulties , it’ll be harder. My question is what hell would you rather have ? This a half hour of negatives for a system that like 20% of have been shown. I think most people will enjoy them , most people are casuals
Delves are the new way to introduce materials and gold into the game, goal is to hit two birds with one stone. 1 make it alot harder for bots to automate this system. 2 make it easy for casuals to play and obtain reagents gold treasures etc. ( introduce more value into the economy ). You gotta understand the economy dies when AI bots take over the game economy and that is the same for all games currently. If it is harder for bots to achieve then it wont be worth doing it. I suspect the mining and herbalism mini games will increase to curb bots. This is so obvious to me
I would hope the higher level challenge version would have spiders doing knockbacks and other things to throw you into the web traps, and more/deadlier traps.
It seems like blizzard has trouble making content between open world content difficulty and normal raids. It’s either a cake walk or it’s too difficult for very casual players.
For fun + Challenge + Reward idea… Have boss areas guarding an activation switch that when activated, it makes either Therese of the delve monsters or bosses or only last boss encounter have an affix that makes it more challenging. Each affix you activate, the more loot you get or increased pool of type of loot you get like maybe you don’t get weapons and trinkets and jewelry baseline unless you activate an affix. Have the ability to turn off affix in case it gets too channeling.
I think it’s entirely reasonable for the version of the event that is advertised to be super easy to be…. Super easy. This is a nothing burger. Negativity for the sake of negativity when literally all other signs of this expansion point towards it being great.
I think you're underestimating just how casual delves are meant to be. It's fine to have content in the game that's beneath your skill level. It's not designed for M+ and heroic players and that's okay.
They should be hard for people who want them to be. Hopefully they do it properly, but i expect this sytem will need iteration to be fun and good. Hope to be surprised.
They need to be fun.. from the looks of this video, they don't look fun. It's a solo to small group content, perfect time to experiment with puzzles and mechanics. Have branching paths, have multiple solutions that are not highlighted to directed to via your objective tab, but via exploring the area and problem dolving, maybe even have fun class-based solutions..... Imagine coming across a chasm, and there's a large stalagmite that could be knocked down to form a bridge, so you go back to an earlier part and find some dynamite so you bring it back, but no how to light it - oh im a mage, cast a fireball at it, or flame shock or put down a explosive trap, or maybe you find a rope on the ground and you can attach it yo an arrow or bolt and fire it across to create a rope bridge. Or heck as a warrior or pally, release the stalagmite is click about and if you shield slam or charge into long enough it finally cracks and falls over. Oh and before people say its only level 1 or 2, they need to be fun from the get-go.. if its boring at level 1 why would you keep going hoping it might finally become fun at 4, 5, 6, etc.
As a FF14 player myself, the game is not doing so well right now. The current expansion was largely disliked, there is no hype for the next one, active FCs (guilds) are being torn apart by DC travel, a ton of players don't like their character after the graphics update, the entire healer role is not fun anymore, the MSQ has become way too long and hurts player acquisition, people from SEA region cannot renew their sub due to a payment system change, big streamers have long stopped playing the game (no more free advertisement,) and the company lost millions of dollars over the last fiscal year which might a cause a ramp up of FF14 monetisation. Microsoft has a real chance to "go for the throat" and claim back most of Shadowlands refugees if Dawntrails isn't a smashing success, and The War Within is already looking way more interesting just with Chris Metzen's return and this Worldsoul Saga trilogy, which to me sounds like they're dumping the lore equivalent of what would have been a Warcraft IV campaign into the Warcraft universe. Pretty neat stuff. ... But yeah, Delves are not looking so fun.
They really need to amp up rewards based on player performance, boosted by the difficulty accordingly. Maybe give higher chances for rarer loot or drop more gold, that should increase player engagement significantly if done right. Also, the big thing that made Mage Towers click was tuning each challenge for each spec, which might be impossible for delves (until maybe the last tier they're claiming to be like Mage Tower bosses)
The punji stick traps in Torghast were the worst, because they were always just a bit off, and even doing the demon hunter leap over them would sometimes still cause damage.
I mean, it's a level 1 and level 2 delve. Despite them using the term, "moderate difficulty" to describe level 2, it's still just a level 2 out of 11. I think I'll withold judgement until we see the later levels. Just the fact that adding spiderwebs from 1 to 2 is a mechanical difference and not just a numbers difference gives me hope that there will be more mechanics added per difficulty level.
It kinda makes me sad that because of such severe backlash with Torghast, it feels like it's negatively affected Delves. The idea of Torghast was good, and as a casual player I actually did enjoy it a lot, especially the powers and random room layouts. I was one of the few people who didn't hate running it. The reason people hated it was because of the systems surrounding it, that forced them to do it as a chore, not because gameplay loop was bad. This just feels like a downgrade honestly. It's got none of the good parts of Torghast and doesn't seem to be any different from say, a world quest. Maybe the higher levels will be better but from a design standpoint, it just seems bland, and I'm a casual player who hates running M+ so I am riding a lot on Delves being fun. What I want from Delves is basically repeatable world content that doesn't feel like doing a fetch quest over and over and over. I want something like Torghast, a roguelite experience that gives you a fun and varied thing to do out in the world. If it's going to be the same objective and layout every single time they just made a significantly dumbed down and worse dungeon, so I don't quite understand what the point is. Casual players still want to be playing a game with some meaningful gameplay, not "put the square in the square hole" over and over.
Like yeah it will be easy for M+ players bcs this mechanic is aimed at casual players so you just cant say it sucks bcs its not in your "skill range" ... we will see how higher difficulties will be.
OK this might just be a me thing but I feel like this should be said what we have seen and what people have tested is leveling delves these are not the proper end game one these are the one you do to level your character and Brann
Other than the little keg/rope thing I think Matt completely missed the point of Delves. The player age base is aging, and we NEED new players. And as we all know, this is the worst game on planet earth for new players. Delves are just one of their possible answers for the issue. Game = hard: no new players, players leaving, fatigue, chore-mentality Game = casual: new player friendly, easy to hang out with friends of all skills, carrot on a short stick vs a long stick is a proven method.
Reading these comments make me feel like im the youngest person watching these videos and "Casual players" are apparently geriatric boomers that cant operate a keyboard and mouse to play a videogame
Two heroic raiders saying that delves didn't impress them means absolutely nothing. Delves are not for you. Don't make suggestions that will only make it worse for the people that delves are aimed at. Just leave it be. Thanks.
Maybe a hot take, but these should remain pretty easy I think. Higher tiers, sure go hog wild, but these look like a great way to throw on some music or a podcast and chill out. They prob could make more interesting objectives though, imagine like, something akin the vanilla Uldaman puzzles but have the stuff hidden in the Delve? Ulda had such a cool d&d vibe.
delves look like something that if u ran any tank, except maybe monk, you would demolish the hell out of it ignoring any mechanic and just zugzug your way through, have Bran go DPS, as tank you will have enough self sustain and decent damage for AoE as per usual. I feel bad for healers lol
100% these delves should have hit the alpha with a medium to high difficulty tier as almost all the people covering alpha have bad things to say about the delves because they are only able to test the easiest difficulties right now.
@@UltimateGamerCC but his concern is not the tuning of the available delves as they are perfectly for what they are; the easiest open world content. What he was getting at is the fact that the target audience for an alpha is the most invested part of the playerbase which is more often than not interested in at least medium difficulty content. First impressions matter and this is an admittedly very very small misstep but a misstep none the less.
@@zeninzen it's Alpha! the tuning comes in Beta, they right now just putting shit together. remember that Delves are being made as a new pillar of endgame, what matters is making it work first, before fucking with the numbers.
@@UltimateGamerCC yeah I’m not wishing for the solo delves to be replaced, but it’d be awesome if using your warband were at least an option. Watching all my characters in action together sounds really satisfying!
Re-create torghast, but with TWW theme and let the powers be insanely powerful. Do the opposite of what they did for torghast. As for boss and mobs, look at plunderstorm. Use well telegraphed abilities that reward you for paying attention and moving. Add fun lore and story to the delves, add fun one-time use items you can use in the delve.
Based on the fact you have an international audience (not sure if you care about it or not) but might worth to ask that guy to speak a bit slowly and more clear? Almost impossible to understand what he says. Look at Asmongold that understand he has an international audience and said multiple times he speaks slow and clear so everybody can understand, take him as example. Thanks.
28:20 Well mmos are probably the most prominent example of this in gaming, so the attitude is hardly surprising. That's what happens when the bulk of improvement comes from the gear treadmill and number go up, and not personal growth/skill. PVE dwarfs PVP for a reason. Not that I agree with that attitude, it is lame.
I hate m+ and its very good that Blizzard ist trying to Bring alternatives. For endgame. So at Last WE can Beat the difficult Level with enough time but Not have to Beat the Timer. Your Video is Not helpful.
i dont think these are supposed to be super challenging content that hardcore m+ or raiders are gonna do, they are for the casual wow fan who want another way to gear and cant get groups. you guys arent the target for this and neither am i and thats okay.
@@jakubpelikan2393 because that's the literal definition of a casual, someone who doesn't engage with challenging content which this doesn't have to be. Literally anyone running m+ or raid probably won't do these other than to kill time or get specific delve rewards. But to people who only gear through the world this is one way to get higher tier gear than they otherwise would without having to struggle to find m+ or raid groups.
@@Guitarman5705 No it isnt definition of casual content. This is not casual content. This is pure garbage. Dark Souls is casual game doest it look like to you that that game is just this faceroll nonsense you just rush trough? No its not. Casual doesnt mean super easy faceroll garbage.
Where are these streams happening??? I follow both their channels and Michael's twitter but I cant find any stream? Is it available only for their patrons?
@@BellularClips Thank You, Ellis! 💚 ... According to Google thats two hours behind CET so I guess Ill be listening to M&M instead of going out tomorrow night 😅
I think blizzard keeps missing the mark with systems like this. Rush to the end hallway design has canabalized all content in the game, quests are linear rushes to end game where you just follow dots on your map, dungeons are litterally hallways and so are raids. Professions is running in a circle on the map until you have enough resources to cast all your daily/weekly profession cooldowns. What WOW lacks is content that makes players just want to log in and grind, especially if you can do it with friends with no strings attached. But by turning all content into a linear timegated chore people just want to get it done and over with until they realize that WOW isn't worth the sub to just log in and do your weekly chest/raid/delves when you could be playing litterally anything else, and unlike previous versions of WOW there wasn't dynamic PVP to keep people engaged and logging into their main despite the main being raidlogged.
MMO’s are inherently not fun. Grinding isn’t fun it’s tedious. People only like the reward at the end. See he explain a simple move and click to interact function that almost all games do mostly action games do it way better because it does things like blows shit up or moves a large object out of your path.
what did you expect from a game mode made for the most casual of casuals? on top of all this blizzard said in their most recent interview that they have no plans for new mage tower like cosmetics in the new expansion, so my hype for delves is not at an absolute 0 when before i thought maybe at least the 13th delve could be something good
if it gives gear i don't care even if it's useless content, just get it, it hits you with a "you won" and u get the gear, it can be even that level of bugged i just need the gear and fk off into m+
If you've ever done lfr and see how unskilled the average player is, I assume that's who the delves are really for. I don't think we should be calling for the lower level difficulties to be harder until they start testing the the difficulty levels that blizzard said are there just for to show off how skilled you are.
Yeah except that lfr players are unskilled becouse lfr doesnt need any skill in first place. Also lfr is just boring zergfest where most people just want to be done with it so they rather die and look at youtube or something becouse its just too boring to actualy play that content.
I mainly do LFR and when I have gotten into normals and there's a wife on the bus of a quarter to half of the group leads leaves so I don't know what you're complaining about on that
Not everything needs to be challenging, and just because you're not having fun with it, doesn't mean more casual players won't have fun. This looks like nice, brainless, kill some time stuff, which is something we need as far as I'm concerned. I've been a raider and dungeon pusher most of my life, and honestly I'm sick of the idea everything needs to be challenging to be fun, because that's just a very shitty thing and pushes people away who just want to chill.
I'm sorry but you tested the first two available levels. These are meant to be like a normal dung. This isn't geared for people who do M+ or Raid. So introductory or "LFR" like delves at first are expected. I mean come on guys. If this isn't just a grab for attention, then I think you've lost the plot my friend. No one goes into a Mythic 0 after getting Cutting Edge and says, man this is terrible content. Just saying, lets consider the proper lens.
We know that this will be it! Let's just be honest to ourselves at this point! Blizzard will not change this, it'll suck 4ss, the community will hate it, they will abandon this. We've been here before. Stop doing this to yourself, please..
Yeah I feel like this video is an L. Saying you are concerened because the lvl 1 delves are easy is just premature. They are going to be end game content. Im sure most people would say normal dungeons are easy. Yeah just a weird take. Seems like this was just a "we are running out of video ideas what's next."
From what I've seen so far, they don't seem designed around fun. Even if scaling up the difficulty, I don't see how playing through some of those would be more enjoyable. At a base gameplay level they seem to lack much of any innovation or any "wow this is cool, I'm exciting to do this content" feel. It's hard to believe this is 2024 WoW.
To be fair I LIVE with someone who plays wow and for whom this may very well be Moderate challenge. But as someone who interested in Delves as my Main End-Game Activity for The War Within. I do want them to provide an appropriate amount of challenge at those higher levels. And I would really want to see some higher Level Delves soon.
Eh i think you are looking to hard at delves content. Its not for everyone seems like content pointed at casuals. From 1-8 it supposed to be easy. 9-11 supposed to get harder 13 sound like they want that to be Mage tower-like experience. I get its hard to not view content through the lens of your experience, I would try your best to view it from a new player perspective or someone returning.
Any audio issues were just RUclips processing being… RUclips processing. Should all be resolved now!
-Ellis
hello
Weekend noce
This is basically trying to evaluate M+10 by doing a normal dungeon run. Especially since the first couple levels are intended for leveling.
Still, as an introduction to the evergreen solo player endgame pillar of the game going forwards, these Delves are not a good first impression at all.
the mine cart spider web thing is insulting, not engaging.
Ya it would be better if it didn’t blatantly tell you what would happen lol
M+ is already a system that has canabalized the concept of a dungeon, trying to make Torghast+ would be an absolute mistake as it doesn't address the problem of a mandatory weekly chore for power progression.
Even in its most basic form it should still try to at least engage the player, because if they expect players to do it every single week for 2+ years and its dull after the first run its going to essentially be another system everyone is going to hate like Torghast like Island Expeditions like Warfronts.
@@TrampyPulsarm+ is the most played wow content what are u talking about
They should implement a practice raid that unlocks after each mythic race. The practice raid would be solo and basically mimics each boss encounter, teaching you all the mechanics that you have to look out for in your spec. No loot involved, just purely for learning raids. I think that would help a lot of people who learn from experience over watching RUclips videos, and it would save time for those who already know the raid mechanics in actual raids.
You'd be surprised how many players are going to love this because they don't raid or don't do mythic+. You guys do raids and are expecting mechanics in everything, but a huge portion of the player base do not and this will be enough of a challenge for them.
Matt hit the nail on the head @22:43. "How do you scale difficulty for World of Warcraft? You add more mechanics" This. Needs. To. Change.
Solo encounters should be mechanically complete from the get go, difficulty should come from the severity of failing those mechanics. T1 Delves could be that you can literally ignore all the mechanics and powwow to the end, but T11 Delves should be a case of, do all the mechanics with a very high success rate or you die with gear reducing the required success rate but never eliminating it.
Huge agree. HUGE agree.
@@thatepicwizardguy so m+ without a timer?
Just keep in mind that just because this isn’t a moderate challenge for you it could be for a large portion of the player base. People who do high keys and heroic raids play at a level not really comparable to the casual word-content/occasion LFR running crowd.
A huge number of players don’t use optimal specs, rotations, or even know how to properly utilize their utility. Even a lot of them that do simply aren’t good enough to run heroic level content.
If this content put at that level a majority of players simply won’t engage with it. Not saying there shouldn’t be something for the more hardcore player base though, they just shouldent gate keep it too hard.
Someone said these are Lost Sectors from Destiny, and they basically are. Lost Sectors have 3 difficulties - normal, legendary, and master. Legendary and Master Lost Sectors are fun and difficult, especially when playing solo, which is also encouraged with additional drops and exotic gear.
Delves can absolutely be fine with tuned difficulty and a COUPLE extra mechanics. Don’t bloat it, but don’t leave it exactly the same mechanically across all difficulties, and we’re all gucci.
I think this is at least the first step. I'm not going to lie, I would love to do raids by my self with AI, learn the abilities and what I need to do and practice. It could also be timed and a challenge for people to compete. I don't even care if there is no loot, OR at the end of the solo raids you get loot but it's probably the equivalent of the first boss on normal etc
I agree
And let us use our alts in our warbands as those AI npc's.
@@Seresin81 I think this is a great take, having your Warband trade places with the AI in follower dungeons if you have a character that can fit the appropriate role
I want an entire parallel gearing pathway which is entirely solo. If this ends up being that, I will be happy. If the sweats get to ion and they keep gate keeping, I’ll just stay unsubbed
Yall are saying there isnt audio. Its all fine on my end.
Same.
I hope the rewards are decent. My wife and I did so many island expeditions because of the butt-ton of transmog, pets, and mounts. Some of the mechanics were more fun than others, but the Easter egg hunt aspect and different enemy types made them a blast to repeat.
There is a customizable Airship mount tied to Delves
How awesome would be a wither like dungeon/delve where you control your PC + 4 others NPCs. Like follower dungeons where they fill the rolls but you advance those delve charaters instead of the withers. Then you can give reqards for completing it but you also can really change the way you interact. The delve will self scale rather than you outside world.
Watch, everyone's complaining about how easy they are and then blizz will overtune it so hard that no one will want to do it.
I personally don't want to see a timer implemented as me and a lot of guildmates are put off m+ *because* of the timer - it stops you from being able to stop and plan, and means you can't really talk or do anything fun other than rush through the dungeon. However, I do still want Delves to be a challenge that forces you to think about your next move. E.g. the candle mechanic should be set up so that you *just about* make it to more wax, and make you consider how you'll path through the dungeon, the webs should have areas where they're unavoidable that force you to plan out routes than minimise webs rather than completely avoid them, or even make you weigh up the cost:benefit of reaching a power-up. I think bringing in more reasons for things like good CC would be nice too, maybe some roaming mobs that hit like trucks but can be avoided and CC'd, to encourage people to take a more creative approach than just attacking everything.
Honestly this looks fine. This is the LFR level content for people who are learning new characters, are looking just to do the minimal to experience the story, and so forth. It seems about as hard as enemies in usual leveling content in most modern WoW expansions.
What will matter is how hard the 7-10 difficulty range stuff is. I mean, nobody talks about Normal Dungeon balance, do we? We only talk about Mythic+ balance. Frankly even the Heroic dungeons rarely get balanced. They're there to get steamrolled if you know what you're doing.
Class agnostic content is completely trivial for tank specs. Which leads to pulling the entire dungeon and blasting it all down.
It looks like they kept all the tedious parts of Torghast like having to open cages and save souls etc
it doesn’t really matter for most people if delves don’t work. it’s a great way for casual players to get gear. it needs to stay
I actually agree with you and if the Mythic+ Community or the rading Community don't like it they don't need to do it
Problem is what he said right at the start, you're locked behind being able to use keys to open the chests with decent loot once a week, like.. why? Loot acquisition in this game is trash already, all this time gating, rng shit, they need to get over this mindset where people want to run 700 dungeons/delves/raids to finally get geared, it's exhausting.
@@user-ns1mc6qh8otime gating kinda... not for hero track gear though. You can be in full hero gear day 1 of M+ being open... myth track gear and upgrading is where you run into huge bottlenecks (crafting as well)... its actually why M+ is extra problematic since its THE way to gear characters quickly.
Delves and Raids need to allow players to do this as well.
It's because in an interview it was said that the developers do not want the impulse Community or miss it raining Community to fill that they have to do doves for their weekly progress @@user-ns1mc6qh8o
I think they could add mechanics that need things like interrupts, defensives, etc. if they had a limited pool of chosen/slotted abilities to fill in gaps in class/spec/role toolkit. I'm thinking something like in FFXIV's Eureka/BA and Bozja/DR/Dalriada.
I really wish they'd introduce or bring back a universal currency (IE Badge of Justice). Then you could make it where the final chest gives you like 5 (maybe +5-10 per bonus chest you unlock). It wouldn't make the CONTENT better per se but would give this a little more of a purpose for either casual gamers or the more hardcore to shore up the last few tokens for an item.
From as early as BlizzCon 2023 and based on my experience, I've been feeling Delves were looking like that thing Blizzard will discontinue after one expansion.
They look too much like MoP scenarios and regular dungeons, when I think they should feel more like Torghast or Plunderstorm.
I feel like these would be really cool to find, like, behind a waterfall or something - and having like 50 different ones just littered around to find while exploring. Then maybe have a subset per season that you can scale up or something.
I think that is more of a problem with the Paladin doing absolutely RETARDED damage.
*Same question as always:* Hows the game looking for people who don't lose sleep over Mythic+?
The game is Mythic+.
as of right now, you can get decent gear without M+, but of course if you want the best gear, you have to do group content. BUT you dont have to do AS MUCH M+.
M+ sucks
The game has been the same since Legion and it doesn't look like much is gonna change any time soon.
@@richardshiflett5181 then dont do it, but dont expect to get the best gear doing World Content, will never happen.
You say they can’t put in specialized mechanics like interrupts because "what if a Holy Priest runs this." But what if delves used a Follower active ability button or Torghast style orbs to give *anyone* an interrupt for delves that need it? Interrupts are just an example here. Blizzard could totally think outside the box to make challenging solo content work, the Mage Tower or even Torghast proves it.
Treasure rooms need like 14 chests a few big goal piles you 'dig' through and stuff. You can just load them up with vendor greys and whatever just need to give the feeling of looting a fat room and then one chest in the cornor could be the locked one just poisition it to feel like that extra thing you got a key for.
I was more worried if the high level of delves will end up being too hard for me to progress.
You know as a casual all I do in wow beyond leveling is world quests and LFR. It'd be great if casual content like those would give me gear progression. In every expansion when I can't progress further in casual content I go afk. I don't need the high end gear, I only want some progression, something to do.
As others already pointed out in the comments first couple levels are meant for leveling.
Also you have to think who are the target audience of delves? It's the casual players who don't want to do group content. So of course they start from being very easy.
After they've gotten some real player data how players do in delves. They're most likely gonna be retuned.
Yeah, these look just like questing and that’s already a thing. Not sure it deserves to be a “back of the box feature” unless it gets a lot more interesting.
They're just Lost Sectors from Destiny 2.
Super easy solution to the high end delves. Steal the warding stones from vault runs in diablo 4. Just put a buff on us to encourage not hitting traps etc, and based on how many we have left at the end we can open more chests up for more loot.
That could quite possibly work
@@zeninzen i personally think it really would. i had way more fun doing those at high sigil levels than i thought i would in season 3.
Rare L take. You can't judge it by +2, so you shouldn't be trying. Also, casual content where a player can turn their brain off and not have to interrupt every mob is somethings this game needs to have casual players.
I see nothing but positive with delves. There’s 9 more difficulties , it’ll be harder. My question is what hell would you rather have ? This a half hour of negatives for a system that like 20% of have been shown.
I think most people will enjoy them , most people are casuals
I'm still surprised people trust blizzard to develop anything lol
One of the things I was actually excited about............my hopium reserves are almost empty
So what is a Delve? "Island Expedition"
Delves are the new way to introduce materials and gold into the game, goal is to hit two birds with one stone. 1 make it alot harder for bots to automate this system. 2 make it easy for casuals to play and obtain reagents gold treasures etc. ( introduce more value into the economy ). You gotta understand the economy dies when AI bots take over the game economy and that is the same for all games currently. If it is harder for bots to achieve then it wont be worth doing it. I suspect the mining and herbalism mini games will increase to curb bots. This is so obvious to me
4:49 I can see this being a moderate challenge at higher tiers if they lowered the steps the candlelight can have.
I have a feeling that increasing levels of delves will have additional affix like modifiers.
I would hope the higher level challenge version would have spiders doing knockbacks and other things to throw you into the web traps, and more/deadlier traps.
It seems like blizzard has trouble making content between open world content difficulty and normal raids. It’s either a cake walk or it’s too difficult for very casual players.
For fun + Challenge + Reward idea…
Have boss areas guarding an activation switch that when activated, it makes either Therese of the delve monsters or bosses or only last boss encounter have an affix that makes it more challenging. Each affix you activate, the more loot you get or increased pool of type of loot you get like maybe you don’t get weapons and trinkets and jewelry baseline unless you activate an affix.
Have the ability to turn off affix in case it gets too channeling.
Delves remind me of that digging sidequests zaralek caverns that I never did
Iv done it like twice lol
you're sadge.
I think it’s entirely reasonable for the version of the event that is advertised to be super easy to be…. Super easy. This is a nothing burger. Negativity for the sake of negativity when literally all other signs of this expansion point towards it being great.
Is it just me or is the audio cut?
I think you're underestimating just how casual delves are meant to be. It's fine to have content in the game that's beneath your skill level. It's not designed for M+ and heroic players and that's okay.
Are WoW players brains fried or are the developers just trolling? Are we really clicking on things for objectives gamers???
Do delves need to be hard ? Aren’t they meant for casuals ?
You get to pick how hard you want it to be.
They should be hard for people who want them to be. Hopefully they do it properly, but i expect this sytem will need iteration to be fun and good. Hope to be surprised.
@@hobosnake1 I hope it’s good and fun but it doesn’t need to be hard if it’s causal, mythic plus and mythic raiding are good for hard content
They need to be fun.. from the looks of this video, they don't look fun. It's a solo to small group content, perfect time to experiment with puzzles and mechanics. Have branching paths, have multiple solutions that are not highlighted to directed to via your objective tab, but via exploring the area and problem dolving, maybe even have fun class-based solutions..... Imagine coming across a chasm, and there's a large stalagmite that could be knocked down to form a bridge, so you go back to an earlier part and find some dynamite so you bring it back, but no how to light it - oh im a mage, cast a fireball at it, or flame shock or put down a explosive trap, or maybe you find a rope on the ground and you can attach it yo an arrow or bolt and fire it across to create a rope bridge. Or heck as a warrior or pally, release the stalagmite is click about and if you shield slam or charge into long enough it finally cracks and falls over.
Oh and before people say its only level 1 or 2, they need to be fun from the get-go.. if its boring at level 1 why would you keep going hoping it might finally become fun at 4, 5, 6, etc.
@@hobosnake1 and since when has blizzard ever iterated on anything.
Blizzard rushing this out the kitchen to compete with Final Fantasy 14 (as usual)
HA! now there's a real ded game for ya. FF14, Yoshi P giving a Beach episode.
FFXIV is so overrated by its players, its like a cult or something. I played that game for a year, found it an extremely average MMORPG.
As a FF14 player myself, the game is not doing so well right now. The current expansion was largely disliked, there is no hype for the next one, active FCs (guilds) are being torn apart by DC travel, a ton of players don't like their character after the graphics update, the entire healer role is not fun anymore, the MSQ has become way too long and hurts player acquisition, people from SEA region cannot renew their sub due to a payment system change, big streamers have long stopped playing the game (no more free advertisement,) and the company lost millions of dollars over the last fiscal year which might a cause a ramp up of FF14 monetisation.
Microsoft has a real chance to "go for the throat" and claim back most of Shadowlands refugees if Dawntrails isn't a smashing success, and The War Within is already looking way more interesting just with Chris Metzen's return and this Worldsoul Saga trilogy, which to me sounds like they're dumping the lore equivalent of what would have been a Warcraft IV campaign into the Warcraft universe. Pretty neat stuff. ... But yeah, Delves are not looking so fun.
@@benoitrousseau4137 For Azeroth!!
They really need to amp up rewards based on player performance, boosted by the difficulty accordingly. Maybe give higher chances for rarer loot or drop more gold, that should increase player engagement significantly if done right.
Also, the big thing that made Mage Towers click was tuning each challenge for each spec, which might be impossible for delves (until maybe the last tier they're claiming to be like Mage Tower bosses)
The punji stick traps in Torghast were the worst, because they were always just a bit off, and even doing the demon hunter leap over them would sometimes still cause damage.
I mean, it's a level 1 and level 2 delve. Despite them using the term, "moderate difficulty" to describe level 2, it's still just a level 2 out of 11. I think I'll withold judgement until we see the later levels. Just the fact that adding spiderwebs from 1 to 2 is a mechanical difference and not just a numbers difference gives me hope that there will be more mechanics added per difficulty level.
Fog of war…. Walking forward into the unknown
so, similar to those Suramar runs. cool at first until it isn't. eventually rinse and repeat.
It kinda makes me sad that because of such severe backlash with Torghast, it feels like it's negatively affected Delves. The idea of Torghast was good, and as a casual player I actually did enjoy it a lot, especially the powers and random room layouts. I was one of the few people who didn't hate running it. The reason people hated it was because of the systems surrounding it, that forced them to do it as a chore, not because gameplay loop was bad.
This just feels like a downgrade honestly. It's got none of the good parts of Torghast and doesn't seem to be any different from say, a world quest. Maybe the higher levels will be better but from a design standpoint, it just seems bland, and I'm a casual player who hates running M+ so I am riding a lot on Delves being fun. What I want from Delves is basically repeatable world content that doesn't feel like doing a fetch quest over and over and over. I want something like Torghast, a roguelite experience that gives you a fun and varied thing to do out in the world.
If it's going to be the same objective and layout every single time they just made a significantly dumbed down and worse dungeon, so I don't quite understand what the point is. Casual players still want to be playing a game with some meaningful gameplay, not "put the square in the square hole" over and over.
Not everything in this game needs to be for raiders.
Like yeah it will be easy for M+ players bcs this mechanic is aimed at casual players so you just cant say it sucks bcs its not in your "skill range" ... we will see how higher difficulties will be.
OK this might just be a me thing but I feel like this should be said what we have seen and what people have tested is leveling delves these are not the proper end game one these are the one you do to level your character and Brann
Other than the little keg/rope thing I think Matt completely missed the point of Delves.
The player age base is aging, and we NEED new players. And as we all know, this is the worst game on planet earth for new players.
Delves are just one of their possible answers for the issue.
Game = hard: no new players, players leaving, fatigue, chore-mentality
Game = casual: new player friendly, easy to hang out with friends of all skills, carrot on a short stick vs a long stick is a proven method.
I don't know why i keep clicking on your videos. Its nothing but negativity on something that looks amusing.
Reading these comments make me feel like im the youngest person watching these videos and "Casual players" are apparently geriatric boomers that cant operate a keyboard and mouse to play a videogame
It’s a BFA spider quest with the mine BG map. Yay so new and shiny we as gamers would have never thought to do something like that.
so original, like your comment... why bloat the game's file size having to make new assets every time they fart!?
I'm concerned about the fact there is no audio on this video
Should be fixed now
not everything has to be so sweaty. get over it
Just cut and paste ESO delves and let's go.
Two heroic raiders saying that delves didn't impress them means absolutely nothing.
Delves are not for you. Don't make suggestions that will only make it worse for the people that delves are aimed at. Just leave it be. Thanks.
Yes thank you for saying that too much is designed around the Mythic plus and Mythic rating community
Maybe a hot take, but these should remain pretty easy I think. Higher tiers, sure go hog wild, but these look like a great way to throw on some music or a podcast and chill out. They prob could make more interesting objectives though, imagine like, something akin the vanilla Uldaman puzzles but have the stuff hidden in the Delve? Ulda had such a cool d&d vibe.
delves look like something that if u ran any tank, except maybe monk, you would demolish the hell out of it ignoring any mechanic and just zugzug your way through, have Bran go DPS, as tank you will have enough self sustain and decent damage for AoE as per usual. I feel bad for healers lol
I think delves are perfect for gamer dads, who only get maybe a hour per night to play. Run a few delves and get gear from the vault on Tuesday.
I think even they will get bored after 2 runs. Thats not good.
@@ZodaSoda Boring or not, people will do dump ^&*( for gear and mounts. Like waiting all day at one spot, for a random spawn.
what the fuck, the keys are a weekly thing? Just make them extra challenges in the dungeon, hidden side areas.... make it like POE labyrinth
"We did Delves on the lowest difficulty and where surprised it wasnt difficult." xD
I'll just wait for the tuning
No audio my lads. Upload it again me thinks? Seems fixed now. Very weird lol.
idk, have you tried another class? pala is kinda the hardest class to balance and its alpha gameplay
th fungal thing looks good tbh
100% these delves should have hit the alpha with a medium to high difficulty tier as almost all the people covering alpha have bad things to say about the delves because they are only able to test the easiest difficulties right now.
it's alpha, the point is to male them work first, THEN Tune it.
@@UltimateGamerCC but his concern is not the tuning of the available delves as they are perfectly for what they are; the easiest open world content. What he was getting at is the fact that the target audience for an alpha is the most invested part of the playerbase which is more often than not interested in at least medium difficulty content. First impressions matter and this is an admittedly very very small misstep but a misstep none the less.
The problem to me is the the wrong audience is testing this when the target audience isn't testing it
@@zeninzen it's Alpha! the tuning comes in Beta, they right now just putting shit together. remember that Delves are being made as a new pillar of endgame, what matters is making it work first, before fucking with the numbers.
If they eventually allow solo delves with a full party of your AI-controlled warband, I’d be tempted to actually sub again.
Delves are Soloable with an AI Partner aka Brann, they dont want to screw the Solo element as that is who Delves are for really.
@@UltimateGamerCC yeah I’m not wishing for the solo delves to be replaced, but it’d be awesome if using your warband were at least an option. Watching all my characters in action together sounds really satisfying!
Re-create torghast, but with TWW theme and let the powers be insanely powerful. Do the opposite of what they did for torghast. As for boss and mobs, look at plunderstorm. Use well telegraphed abilities that reward you for paying attention and moving. Add fun lore and story to the delves, add fun one-time use items you can use in the delve.
It's like the exact same as vaults in Diablo
Based on the fact you have an international audience (not sure if you care about it or not) but might worth to ask that guy to speak a bit slowly and more clear? Almost impossible to understand what he says. Look at Asmongold that understand he has an international audience and said multiple times he speaks slow and clear so everybody can understand, take him as example. Thanks.
In interviews devs have said the difficulty will scale up to +8 difficulty on the new m+ scale. I think it'll be fine.
28:20 Well mmos are probably the most prominent example of this in gaming, so the attitude is hardly surprising. That's what happens when the bulk of improvement comes from the gear treadmill and number go up, and not personal growth/skill. PVE dwarfs PVP for a reason. Not that I agree with that attitude, it is lame.
I hate m+ and its very
good that Blizzard ist trying to Bring alternatives. For endgame. So at Last WE can Beat the difficult Level with enough time but Not have to Beat the Timer. Your Video is Not helpful.
i dont think these are supposed to be super challenging content that hardcore m+ or raiders are gonna do, they are for the casual wow fan who want another way to gear and cant get groups. you guys arent the target for this and neither am i and thats okay.
What makes you think casuals = easy content? I am casual and i am alredy bored of devls just looking on thie video.
@@jakubpelikan2393 because that's the literal definition of a casual, someone who doesn't engage with challenging content which this doesn't have to be. Literally anyone running m+ or raid probably won't do these other than to kill time or get specific delve rewards. But to people who only gear through the world this is one way to get higher tier gear than they otherwise would without having to struggle to find m+ or raid groups.
@@Guitarman5705 No it isnt definition of casual content. This is not casual content. This is pure garbage. Dark Souls is casual game doest it look like to you that that game is just this faceroll nonsense you just rush trough? No its not.
Casual doesnt mean super easy faceroll garbage.
Where are these streams happening??? I follow both their channels and Michael's twitter but I cant find any stream?
Is it available only for their patrons?
The streams happen live every Friday on the main Bellular Warcraft channel at around 7pm GMT!
-Ellis
@@BellularClips Thank You, Ellis! 💚
... According to Google thats two hours behind CET so I guess Ill be listening to M&M instead of going out tomorrow night 😅
I think blizzard keeps missing the mark with systems like this.
Rush to the end hallway design has canabalized all content in the game, quests are linear rushes to end game where you just follow dots on your map, dungeons are litterally hallways and so are raids. Professions is running in a circle on the map until you have enough resources to cast all your daily/weekly profession cooldowns.
What WOW lacks is content that makes players just want to log in and grind, especially if you can do it with friends with no strings attached. But by turning all content into a linear timegated chore people just want to get it done and over with until they realize that WOW isn't worth the sub to just log in and do your weekly chest/raid/delves when you could be playing litterally anything else, and unlike previous versions of WOW there wasn't dynamic PVP to keep people engaged and logging into their main despite the main being raidlogged.
MMO’s are inherently not fun. Grinding isn’t fun it’s tedious. People only like the reward at the end. See he explain a simple move and click to interact function that almost all games do mostly action games do it way better because it does things like blows shit up or moves a large object out of your path.
delves are meant to be quick and 'easy', to gear you up easy to be able to do endgame
what did you expect from a game mode made for the most casual of casuals? on top of all this blizzard said in their most recent interview that they have no plans for new mage tower like cosmetics in the new expansion, so my hype for delves is not at an absolute 0 when before i thought maybe at least the 13th delve could be something good
Holy shit, I can't stand these pure bait titles anymore.
I'm just gonna go enjoy my games. So sick of the negativity.
if it gives gear i don't care even if it's useless content, just get it, it hits you with a "you won" and u get the gear, it can be even that level of bugged i just need the gear and fk off into m+
Definitely no audio, reloaded cuz I thought it was me
If you've ever done lfr and see how unskilled the average player is, I assume that's who the delves are really for. I don't think we should be calling for the lower level difficulties to be harder until they start testing the the difficulty levels that blizzard said are there just for to show off how skilled you are.
Yeah except that lfr players are unskilled becouse lfr doesnt need any skill in first place. Also lfr is just boring zergfest where most people just want to be done with it so they rather die and look at youtube or something becouse its just too boring to actualy play that content.
I mainly do LFR and when I have gotten into normals and there's a wife on the bus of a quarter to half of the group leads leaves so I don't know what you're complaining about on that
Hope it is not mandatory cause I could not stand torgaust
Not everything needs to be challenging, and just because you're not having fun with it, doesn't mean more casual players won't have fun. This looks like nice, brainless, kill some time stuff, which is something we need as far as I'm concerned. I've been a raider and dungeon pusher most of my life, and honestly I'm sick of the idea everything needs to be challenging to be fun, because that's just a very shitty thing and pushes people away who just want to chill.
Well said
I'm sorry but you tested the first two available levels. These are meant to be like a normal dung. This isn't geared for people who do M+ or Raid. So introductory or "LFR" like delves at first are expected. I mean come on guys. If this isn't just a grab for attention, then I think you've lost the plot my friend. No one goes into a Mythic 0 after getting Cutting Edge and says, man this is terrible content. Just saying, lets consider the proper lens.
We know that this will be it! Let's just be honest to ourselves at this point! Blizzard will not change this, it'll suck 4ss, the community will hate it, they will abandon this. We've been here before. Stop doing this to yourself, please..
Yeah I feel like this video is an L. Saying you are concerened because the lvl 1 delves are easy is just premature. They are going to be end game content. Im sure most people would say normal dungeons are easy. Yeah just a weird take. Seems like this was just a "we are running out of video ideas what's next."
From what I've seen so far, they don't seem designed around fun. Even if scaling up the difficulty, I don't see how playing through some of those would be more enjoyable. At a base gameplay level they seem to lack much of any innovation or any "wow this is cool, I'm exciting to do this content" feel. It's hard to believe this is 2024 WoW.
To be fair I LIVE with someone who plays wow and for whom this may very well be Moderate challenge. But as someone who interested in Delves as my Main End-Game Activity for The War Within. I do want them to provide an appropriate amount of challenge at those higher levels. And I would really want to see some higher Level Delves soon.
Eh i think you are looking to hard at delves content. Its not for everyone seems like content pointed at casuals. From 1-8 it supposed to be easy. 9-11 supposed to get harder 13 sound like they want that to be Mage tower-like experience. I get its hard to not view content through the lens of your experience, I would try your best to view it from a new player perspective or someone returning.
This dude is always concerned
You guys do know that old ladies pmay this game too righr? I know its hard to bekieve but yeah bro old ladies play too