I used to play reaper a lot when it was popular format because of MBT and i think , it is a triangle format of monarch Stein, Bazoo and warrior and of the three I think monarch was one of the more easy ones to play against because there’s three judgment hand control is very popular and as long as you can beat the 5000 threshold you’re fine for the most part as well as monarch was pretty easy to side against one of the better innovations in the matchup against monarch Stein is the use of king tiger To prevent both stein and tree borne frog personally I very rarely lost against stein in tournament because of how I sided against it
I could definitely believe that Triangle meta theory! You raised another good point that I didn't really talk about in the video which is side decking! That's also a factor that makes Stein a bit worse than it seems, it is very easy to side deck against, and everyone is preparing side deck hate for it
@@ygofrom0 I love reaper format, wish there was more tournaments for it. I still think there could be innovation in it. If you have any questions about the format I feel like I’m decently knowledgeable about it. I topped a bunch when it was big if you have any questions, feel free to ask and there always the reaper discord its nowhere near as active as it was but there’s still people there
@@BigPanda64 We'll be holding a tournament for Reaper next month on the YGOFrom0 Discord server so hopefully that can reinvigorate some interest in it!
Stein being a prize card definitely adds to the hype, coupled with the fact that he's an OTK enabler. It takes one loss to it to instill that fear. The artwork itself has this chilling vibe to it. It isn't the best card, but it's certainly a menacing one, Stein has an aura about it for sure
Weirdly, I feel like Stein was incredibly feared because it was a prize card originally. At least at my locals, it was a mythic card no one had. Obviously by late 2005 it had been reprinted, but the infamy kind of stuck, maybe because a lot of people had never actually played against a dedicated deck built around it.
That's a very good point! I generally only really consider the formats in a modern vacuum but the historical perspective of these cards and formats is very important to bring up in a discussion like this!
It's something that decks could try out but I don't think it would change much. In the video I did on the Burn deck, it struggled to deal 3000 in Burn quickly even playing a strategy tailored to doing that. Based on that, I think that while the burn cards splashed into non-burn decks may make Steining a bit more risky, it won't necessarily change much overall. But I think it's definitely something that people could test out!
Yeah, this video is mainly focusing on formats where Stein has access to Cyber End Dragon and Cyber Twin Dragon because the OTK potential is a lot stronger with those cards and the deck is a lot more dominant than it is in Goat
@@ygofrom0 From some of the games you've featured on this channel, the Fusions played by Stein were quite underwhelming. For example, playing Ryu Senshi or Balter. Quite a waste of 5000 LP in my opinion. Of course, it is a completely different story when you double attack for 5600.
@@jameswilliams2269 Yeah things like Senshi and Balter are really just there for strange edge cases in the Cyber version of the deck. Generally though you're going for a double Cyber Twin attack or a limiter removed Cyber End push
I don't think stein is the best deck in the format but losing to it feels super horrible. Stein just isn't consistent enough to win tournaments enough to warrant playing it. You run stein because you want to otk people not win the tournament. JUST IMO.
I think a fair amount of people play Stein because they think it will win the tournament since when you win with the deck it feels unbeatable. However I think that you're right that ultimately the deck may not be consistent enough to win enough to win an event. We'll have to see what happens in the current tournament and see if those results change people's minds
Does the deck have to be the best deck in the format to dominate discussion of that format? Definitely no. There's frequent examples in Duel Links' history that shows this; Konami gives very powerful skills to decks that might not be good enough to be top tier, yet these skills are still powerful enough to frustrate players whose decks can't adequately compete with what these skills provide (especially decks that lack a powerful skill of their own to even the odds). A recent example of this is the Yubel deck, which was never really more than tier 3, yet was (and to an extent still is) widely hated by players. I think what it boils down to is not so much the deck's objective strength as much as it is the deck's overall presence in the game. Yubel was very popular on Duel Links' ladder for a while, which led to players frequently encountering and struggling against the deck. It might not've been the best deck, but it was the deck they played against the most, and possibly the deck they struggled against the most. If Cyber-Stein isn't the best deck, it is at the very least in that Yubel category of having many players and being powerful enough to be a frustrating match-up. I remember MBT once commenting that Mermail and Fire Fist weren't the best decks of Fire/Water format, despite being the namesake of the format. I haven't personally explored that format, but if this is true, then it's a great example of decks not needing to be the best deck to dominate format discussion.
Thanks for bringing in the Duel Links perspective as well, I didn't really play much of it so I didn't know all that but I think it's a perfect example of this effect! I'm also excited for Fire Water format, from what I've heard Fire Fist is weaker than people thought and Mermail is stronger but I'm still going to test out both and see if that's true!
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I used to play reaper a lot when it was popular format because of MBT and i think , it is a triangle format of monarch Stein, Bazoo and warrior and of the three I think monarch was one of the more easy ones to play against because there’s three judgment hand control is very popular and as long as you can beat the 5000 threshold you’re fine for the most part as well as monarch was pretty easy to side against one of the better innovations in the matchup against monarch Stein is the use of king tiger To prevent both stein and tree borne frog personally I very rarely lost against stein in tournament because of how I sided against it
I could definitely believe that Triangle meta theory! You raised another good point that I didn't really talk about in the video which is side decking! That's also a factor that makes Stein a bit worse than it seems, it is very easy to side deck against, and everyone is preparing side deck hate for it
@@ygofrom0 I love reaper format, wish there was more tournaments for it. I still think there could be innovation in it. If you have any questions about the format I feel like I’m decently knowledgeable about it. I topped a bunch when it was big if you have any questions, feel free to ask and there always the reaper discord its nowhere near as active as it was but there’s still people there
@@BigPanda64 We'll be holding a tournament for Reaper next month on the YGOFrom0 Discord server so hopefully that can reinvigorate some interest in it!
Stein being a prize card definitely adds to the hype, coupled with the fact that he's an OTK enabler. It takes one loss to it to instill that fear. The artwork itself has this chilling vibe to it. It isn't the best card, but it's certainly a menacing one, Stein has an aura about it for sure
Yeah I didn't consider the prize card part of it but I do think it plays a role in its reputation! Just like with Crush Card in a few short formats...
Weirdly, I feel like Stein was incredibly feared because it was a prize card originally. At least at my locals, it was a mythic card no one had.
Obviously by late 2005 it had been reprinted, but the infamy kind of stuck, maybe because a lot of people had never actually played against a dedicated deck built around it.
I agree. Same with mechanical chaser back in 2002. I remember when someone told me about it as a kid and I thought it was a myth 😂
That's a very good point! I generally only really consider the formats in a modern vacuum but the historical perspective of these cards and formats is very important to bring up in a discussion like this!
Stein is a proto final boss.
I like that take on it!
Do you think including more cards with burn effects in non-burn strategies will increase the winrate vs Stein decks?
It's something that decks could try out but I don't think it would change much. In the video I did on the Burn deck, it struggled to deal 3000 in Burn quickly even playing a strategy tailored to doing that. Based on that, I think that while the burn cards splashed into non-burn decks may make Steining a bit more risky, it won't necessarily change much overall. But I think it's definitely something that people could test out!
In Goat, Lily was clearly better than Cyber Stein.
Yeah, this video is mainly focusing on formats where Stein has access to Cyber End Dragon and Cyber Twin Dragon because the OTK potential is a lot stronger with those cards and the deck is a lot more dominant than it is in Goat
@@ygofrom0 From some of the games you've featured on this channel, the Fusions played by Stein were quite underwhelming. For example, playing Ryu Senshi or Balter. Quite a waste of 5000 LP in my opinion.
Of course, it is a completely different story when you double attack for 5600.
@@jameswilliams2269 yeah even with master of oz, 4200 is significantly less damage than 5600 in terms of the threshold.
@@jameswilliams2269 Yeah things like Senshi and Balter are really just there for strange edge cases in the Cyber version of the deck. Generally though you're going for a double Cyber Twin attack or a limiter removed Cyber End push
I don't think stein is the best deck in the format but losing to it feels super horrible. Stein just isn't consistent enough to win tournaments enough to warrant playing it. You run stein because you want to otk people not win the tournament. JUST IMO.
I think a fair amount of people play Stein because they think it will win the tournament since when you win with the deck it feels unbeatable. However I think that you're right that ultimately the deck may not be consistent enough to win enough to win an event. We'll have to see what happens in the current tournament and see if those results change people's minds
Does the deck have to be the best deck in the format to dominate discussion of that format?
Definitely no. There's frequent examples in Duel Links' history that shows this; Konami gives very powerful skills to decks that might not be good enough to be top tier, yet these skills are still powerful enough to frustrate players whose decks can't adequately compete with what these skills provide (especially decks that lack a powerful skill of their own to even the odds). A recent example of this is the Yubel deck, which was never really more than tier 3, yet was (and to an extent still is) widely hated by players.
I think what it boils down to is not so much the deck's objective strength as much as it is the deck's overall presence in the game. Yubel was very popular on Duel Links' ladder for a while, which led to players frequently encountering and struggling against the deck. It might not've been the best deck, but it was the deck they played against the most, and possibly the deck they struggled against the most. If Cyber-Stein isn't the best deck, it is at the very least in that Yubel category of having many players and being powerful enough to be a frustrating match-up.
I remember MBT once commenting that Mermail and Fire Fist weren't the best decks of Fire/Water format, despite being the namesake of the format. I haven't personally explored that format, but if this is true, then it's a great example of decks not needing to be the best deck to dominate format discussion.
Thanks for bringing in the Duel Links perspective as well, I didn't really play much of it so I didn't know all that but I think it's a perfect example of this effect! I'm also excited for Fire Water format, from what I've heard Fire Fist is weaker than people thought and Mermail is stronger but I'm still going to test out both and see if that's true!