There are a few things, I build a LOT of Ford strokers, and while these things aren't universal they are common. Firstly the compression needs to be at 12 to one minimum. Secondly the P51s need a lot of intake, that Motorsport intake isn't that great. Thirdly we've found that Crane often has quality control issues, so their timing events need to be checked thoroughly. Forth you would have been better off with the 4.3" stroke, the 4.5" just doesn't make good peak numbers, but are great in the midrange.
Yeah I immediately thought of the cam timing as well. Especially with the peak torque. Intake as well though I agree. Those heads are designed for alot of airflow. Strictly na really needs to be 13 or even 14:1 but with the nitrous I'm with you yet again 12:1 would have been the spot
@@johnhamblin12201 Kaase made 700hp with those heads out of the box on a 466” @ 7000rpm with only 12:1 compression, so we all know there is a bunch left in them. Past a 532”-545” motor, the SR-71’s are the better suited head until about 598”-632” where the A460’s take over. I agree on you points about camshaft profiles
We've only done 2 motors with the SR71s a 598 that make 964 @ 6300. The 521 we did made 1006, but that one is a radical high rpm number for a comp car, hand built intake with 2 Dominators, 286 degrees @ .050 intake duration, 15.2 cr.
@@johnhamblin12201 Hello,. Hey,. I wanna built a 557,. Will a 12.1 CR. Still be safe if I decide to spray a 250 shot of nos?. Or should i use lower compression ratio?.
@kidneybeans …. I prefer Fords too but I can also appreciate performance builds regardless of the brand. That’s the main reason I subscribed to Richard Holdener’s channel. He doesn’t play favorites like so many of the other professional builders do. When he compares different brands in a one on one dyno test, he does everything possible to keep everything fair and equal if needed. Richard also provides reliable data about the components being used, specific details about the changes he makes and an honest assessment of the final results. Check it out. You just might like it 👍.
I would be thrilled with that 557. Reasonable compression, and 700+hp? yes please. I would love to see that with a big single turbo on e85- those numbers would have been just silly.
Yeah, i would like to see a side by side test of the P-51 vs. SR-71 Heads on same exact engine. A 3.85" Stroke Engine and a 4.30" or 4.50" Stroke Engine.
I saw an episode on power nation where they went to Kaase and he built 4.600 x 4.500 stroke 598cid with SR71`s and it cranked out 1132hp..not bad, not bad at all.
@@edpetrocelli2633 …. Unfortunately I missed that episode of Power Nation TV. Those impressive dyno numbers would indicate about 1.9 horsepower per cubic inch. Was this combination “all engine” without any type of power adders ? Thanks for the info.
@@danielwilson6665 Yes sir it was naturally aspirated and I believe the heads were ported as cast. They were the SR71`s an improvement over the P51`s apparently the intake valve on the 71`s is moved away from the cylinder wall.
You should run a near stock 460 with twins to see what it would make. Maybe so forged internals, mild head porting, mild cam, and the twins. I'm curious to see how well that'd work for how cheap it could be
Kaase ran a test for Hot Rod magazine some years ago comparing 'Wedge vs. Hemi' with his P51's and the Boss 9s. Used a 521 he'd run for hundreds of pulls already for developing parts on. Not only did the hemi heads pull over 900 hp on pump gas... but it was also well over 100 hp more than the P51s..! The Boss 9s aren't exactly cheap though...
Great job as always Richard. Love your videos. On the MPG set up, I’d like to see their flow numbers, but traditionally BBF with stock heads, even ported stock heads, the exhaust is usually weak and needs more lift and duration. Depending on the flow numbers, a roller cam with something like 240/250 @ .050 and .650/.675” lift int/exh, on a 110 or 112, spec’d at max lift to maximize the flow of the ported heads. Also, I would have ran it with a big 4150 carb and the Stealth compared to the 4500 on the single plane. The Stealth is one of the best all around intakes for the BBF. On the big motor, more cam, more compression and E85, or boost. Keep “The Other Guys” videos coming. Thanks Richard.
The low compression Killed the power. This build doesn’t do Kaase justice. I have a very similar combination (.790 lift, 109 LSA)and it made 900hp, 800tq with race fuel.
Yup you defiantly need more compression My buddy built a 545 BBF. . Stock 2 bolt block, has ported Cobra Jet heads, solid roller with less duration but more lift than your Crane, 1050 Dominator 13:1 compression and E85. Makes 900hp at crank N/A. 460 2 bolt blocks and stock cast crank will hold more power than any BBC block and cast crank. 460 crank will hold 1000hp all day until you f up the tune and detonate it to many times. 460 2 bolt block will hold more than that. . Shoosh, dont tell anyone though.
Kaase knows how to make power. He's so humble about it to which is freaking awesome. Kaase is Gale Banks alter ego. Both know a ton however one will tell you 20 times in a 5 minute conversation that he knows a lot and the other will give credit to others.
@@Parents_of_Twins I misread your original comment. Oops. John is the man. I've been working on a BBF build for my grandpa's old truck and they have been so helpful in putting together a build sheet for good power, good manners for cruising around the street and good reliability. There's an older video of him working on the Bigfoot 1 AR/Ford Performance block/heads and he has lots of critiques of the design, not in a "Alan was an idiot way" but just in the sort of way that someone who is incapable of leaving well enough alone does. So soft spoken and so excited about 385 series engines. I'm a long ways from his shop but next time I can make it down that way, gonna see if I can come check it out. It's the mecca for BBF guys
The long end runners need about 20% more CSA at the runner entries, than the (too short) center runners. Don't overly enlarge the center runners, this will only hurt power down low. You might want to try the TFS "Mafia" manifold on the 557.
Really like to see a big bang version of the 460 like you've done others. In particular take a late 70s d3ve headed low comp engine and upgrade the cam and springs and intake. Then throw the bigger ebay turbo at it or even the twins. Those setups seem to be cheaper then a good set of aluminum heads with bigger gains. Then even do what you always do and slap the better aluminum heads on and an even bigger cam. No matter what though I really appreciate and love all the different builds you do! Awesome and informative info! Thank you!
Yes, compression was likely too low. Based on the stated cam, static compression ratio and specs from a Procomp 557 stroker kit, I ran the numbers through the online Wallace Racing Dynamic Compression Ratio calculator. The DCR comes out at 6.96:1. That seems too low to me for an aluminum headed engine. A target DCR of 8.0 to 8.3 would be a better number. A 11.5:1 static compression ratio would yield a DCR of 8.12.
I think the compression was the major factor. With that big solid roller, I think the lack of compression was letting the cylinder pressure bleed too much. Compression.
@@droppedf100 here is a video of our trucks. I made 1140 at the tires in the green one. Black one is NA 575 10.5:1. Usually he is scraping 9's. Both are full weight 4000 plus. ruclips.net/video/STesddaQgjA/видео.html
So close, yet no boosted BBF. Maybe a part 2? With boost? (Kasse, Mad Porter, L.Evans, R.Malik, and some other BBF guru’s I’m sure could provide some insight) thanks for the videos, just need a boosted BBF....
I built my 460 35+years ago. I used an Isky 262 hydraulic cam, an Edlebrock SP2P intake and carb, Rhodes anti pump up lifters, and 1.75 roller rockers. The block was a '73, honed only, Hasting steel rings, stock crank/bearings, with '68 heads (estimated compression was 9.6/1) and long tube headers with 2" exhaust. I put this in my "69 F-250 with a C-6 (with a shift kit), an adjustable vacume modulator set to shift at 5500 RPM, and a low stall converter. I ran 33x12.5x16.5 on 10" slotted aluminum rims and stock 4.10 differential. Didn't have access to a dyno, but was able to keep up with a 78 IROC Z to 100MPH with no problem.
I remember in my reading Kasse said that the 4.5” stroke 460 doesn’t usually make more power than a 4.3” stroke just more Tourqe. He also said that a 4.3” stroke was his choice on street motors.From articles in PHR magazine with Kasse’s help on a 530ci with P-51 heads they built, the lift was much higher. .775” That engine made over 790 hp. More compression definitely would help too.
If you ran 11 to 1 or 12 to 1 area, that engine would make 850hp easy. Shoot if you ran 14 to 1 that engine would make 1000hp easily naturally aspirated.
The compression and cam. The Kaase test mule engine is a 521 and it makes 800 with 10:1 and the cam is 273/280 duration 791/787 lift 109 lobe separation
I've been waiting for a 460 build a long time......thanks. More compression for sure, bigger cam, a bit more timing and advancing cam to put more area under the curve for a better average tq/hp. You couldn't hope for better flow than Jon Kaase heads. I ran 10.5:1 compression and it really made a difference. Perhaps you could get Jon to come in and lay his hands on the valve covers and chant a few Ford words?
The Ford intake is one problem. There are lots better intakes out there and I understand that you had this already, but Kaase has about the best intakes. Everyone knows compression is down too, as the new combo actually reduced CR from stock, in this test. You're just about there, and some of the smallest changes on these engines will have big results on the dyno. Now just step up to the SR-71 heads and cam it up right, and let it break the dyno.
Pump gas compression....all the way. Step to 1150 Dominator. 11 or 12:1, 110 or C12, crank a few more degrees of timing, and a better intake manifold, and 2¼ primaries. Should be 950+
There's an episode of engine power where they build a 598 with Kaase's SR-71 heads and that one makes over 1100hp. Can't remember was the compression was on that one but I think it was in the neighborhood of 14:1. All I remember is the guy being sad because the Kaase 598 outperformed his 632 even though they had similar compression and cam. Kaase knows how to make power that's for sure. I'd love a 429 with Kaase heads. (I had said 557 earlier sorry for the mistake.)
I've seen that episode too. I thought Kaase did a Max Effort 598 that made like 1224 HP with the SR-71 Heads. Single Dominator think was like 15:1 or 16:1 Compression.
@@badass6.0powerstroke10 Would not surprise me. Kaase knows how to make crazy power. I think it's funny the way he talks about making 800-900hp like it's a 8hp Briggs and Stratton. He's just so casual about it. He's definitely one of my favorite engine builders just because he's so humble. Banks obviously knows a hell of a lot but he just can't help himself from telling you that he knows a hell of a lot and that type of personality bugs me.
@@Parents_of_Twins I agree with you 100 % Jon probably the Best out there when it comes to BBF stuff. Super Humble too. And I've seen few Gale Banks videos, very smart also, but very cocky in a way. I couldn't Agree more.
More camshaft and carb/intake sizing would have REALLY woke this up for absolute power, and more compression to a lesser extent. 557 cubic inches takes a lot of airflow to support, and the cam and intake here aren't enough for the job. Too bad it didn't happen in this video, these make really impressive power when the of the combination is better matched to the displacement and cylinder heads!
You may have been better off with a smaller stroker kit. How well did the head and intake ports match up. I think it needs more compression but not over 12:1. Was it running too rich could have lost horsepower on fuel and compression compatibility. I have a suggestion. How about a 351w build with something around 252-260 duration and add a turbo. Essentially making a 351w eco boost.
In the 80’s I raced a stock camshaft .030 over, 1969 460 with stock intake, 750 Holley and 14 to 1 compression and made 410 hp and 620ft of torque on chassis dyno through a stock C6 automatic. Ported exhaust manifolds3” exhaust with the original shoebox Flowmasters. Had to run 112 octane to stop detonation. Anything over 32 degrees timing and it would misfire. It was a 3/8 mile dirt oval pure stock so that’s why it had the stock cam and stock parts. It even had a stock air cleaner with the lid flipped. It was in a 73 Torino and dominated by well over a second a lap until it broke a rod from air in the oil starving 1 and 5. Lasted about 4 weeks of racing. My conclusion was that it LOVED the compression. The dyno guy was shocked at the numbers. Didn’t have enough tire (7’ tread) to use full throttle even on a dry fast track
4.3 stroke might have been a little more advantageous with a better rod length to stroke ratio for high rpm power. Definitely, though, 13-14:1 compression ratio would have gathered far better efficiency. I run 10.5+:1 compression for heavy towing and small cams in BBF as they are quite friendly with timing without detonation, as long as it's done correctly. I suspect you would have seen at least 125 horse with compression up to par for the cam size you chose. 557 would respond quite nicely to a tunnel ram as well...
The most impressive thing about this video is how you man-up and shoulder the responsibility for the results not not turning out quite as well they could have. As you pointed out, the compression ratio being so low is definitely a limiting factor in the overall performance of this good combination of components. You will nail it next time, Richard !
p51 heads vs Trickflow. looking for a higher torque from 1500 to 5500 RPM out of a 4.5 stroked 460. witch would be best. also is there a quality difference.
I'm currently building a 552ci 385 for myself. But I jumped into the sr71 heads for later use on a 598. But in the following months I should have the worked head,intake,ans hopefully a built ahortblock. Getting parts atm is next to impossible it seems so its pay and wait worse then ever. But once I'm finished I'd love to bolt it to the dyno and see what we can ring out of it. Should sneeE and make 900plus
Hi Richard, I built a 514 stroker. I used the Kasse cobra jet heads. I ported the heads and given the .080 overcome used the big bore gaskets and relieved the exhaust shrouding caused by rotating the valves in the chamber. Port matched the same intake you had. My cam was a hydraulic roller that had .611 lift and around 246@.050. We came in at 599.8 hp @ 5500 and 645 tq@ 4100. We were hoping for that same missing 100 hp. Here's another thing, I made 5 pulls and the best pull came with total timing at 24 degrees... that was pretty shocking. We had big dish Mahle pistons that put us in the 9.8 comp range... I think these motors with their fantastic chambers want over 11 to 1 comp. I would guess it could run e15 gas or 93 octane with 12 to 1. I just feel like they are lazy with low compression. The basic combustion chamber layout is one of the best in the business and it needs to be taken advantage.
Kaases better head is the SR71, The P51 heads are okay basicly a stock style replacement but annoyingly uses different valve relief , if u want proper big block Horsepower trickflow A460 heads and bluethunder C460 head any Boss 429 style heads those would make over 1k on a 557
It's a combination needs a bunch more compression like 12 or 13 to 1 and you need more camshaft generally a big block Ford wants a .100 more Lift then a big block Chevy
Richard, Once again you have shown a warts and all account of the upgrades on a stock 460 then upgrade to 557 stroker. Compression is the issue that you addressed. Please keep making this type of video...It definitely keeps me watching. Not the ultimate HP/TQ engine with no problems that others may show. People make mistakes and real people show them. Great content. Keep it up and keep going.
Cam lobe separationn angle should have been 108° or so and compression 13:1 and 110 octane or higher race gas..cam lift could have been in the .800-.900 range as well.
As was stated before not enough compression,what were you thinking really! You call yourselves professionals. Next not enough cam or intake manifold and lastly as stated before Crane cams are shit I wouldn’t beat a dead dog with one let alone put it into an engine.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. That’s why the stock motor only made 349. I think an early motor in good shape with a carb and headers should be closer to 400
Great video Richard, as always. I agree with you on the oiling system upgrades, scraper, windage tray and deep sump. If you leave the compression as is, that cam needs a 102 degree lobe separation + 3 advance with 1.73 rockers. If you take the compression to 12.5 :1 you could widen that to 104 degrees + 3 advance.....that should put you into very high 800s in hp......will also raise the tq.....and may even run on a blend of 93 and race gas.....
@@braydencozbyVizard is foolish... 102 is too tight for that duration. Compression is simply too low... with 14:1, more carb needed... LSA can't be calculated... It's about valve events, not LSA alone. When one understands the effects of rod to stroke ratio compared to cam events, they see how LSA calculations will bugger up max power efforts... Vizard tried too hard to make engine building an algebra equation, and it simply isn't true. Too many variables, and too few tests... One set of cam figures with one LSA would need 5 tests, so 25 tests minimum on one duration, 5 LSA figures to find it out. Instead, Vizard only tested enough to make his theory appear feasible, while not testing all cam events. His testing is incomplete.
That 460 (7.5L) engine needs more air, in another video Richard uses a double throttle body on a 6L engine, for that reason he needs a double carburettor (Dominator 1050 cfm, hahaha (evil laugh))
Respect level increased! Taking ownership for the slight failure like that and doing what you do, you must learn at a rapid rate. Honestly jealous. I work in a completely different industry and if I found a place that would let me learn that rapidly, I’d take it, too. People underestimate the value of being somewhere that accelerates your learning.
I missed it Richard, was this BBF a front sump, mid sump, or dual sump oil pan? To me I've only seen the windage/oiling issues on the dual & mid sump, or I could be completely wrong. I've always been curious on the differences of just that when it comes to performance on these multiple oil pan versions Ford used. Personally (and if I have room) I always opt for the front sump versions.
Well we know that the cheapo GM junk is exactly that, cheap to build. MOPAR and FORD being better quality are subsequently more expensive to build. Of course one gets what the pay for and that’s both in performance and longevity with the MOPAR & FORD. I have to say I was going to talk about “shoulda” when building these however after reading David Boggs post right before mine I see he’s already covered the same basic parameters I was going to mention. 12to1 compression and Fuel Injection are also critical on these 460 block based engines.
Looking at doing a build with a Ford Performance A460 block, bored and stroked to 598 cubes with SR-71 Kasse heads hoping to make almost 1100hp NA. More compression and run Kasse intake with the P-51 heads and more maybe more duration to cam in your 557.
Would love to see what the ported stock heads would do with the stroker. Also Just curious. Why the pulls are at higher RPM for each combination.? And is it possible to do a pull from around 1500 rpm? Sorry I just don't know anything about dyno's.
Kasse built basically the identical build and made over 850 hp on 11:0 compression with P-51 heads. You didn’t give it a chance with the anemic compression you built it with!
If you were looking for 1,000+ hp it should have had 12.0 compression or more and a ported intake. I thank you for the video I always like the “other guys” videos, but this is a poor representation of trying to achieve a 1,000hp!!!
This is so Awesome!!! You know powernation did a 557 to 1000hp! Id really like to know how to make the 557 0r 4.3 stroke survive oiling and such. Also how do the budget afr heads compare to the p51?
There are a few things, I build a LOT of Ford strokers, and while these things aren't universal they are common. Firstly the compression needs to be at 12 to one minimum. Secondly the P51s need a lot of intake, that Motorsport intake isn't that great. Thirdly we've found that Crane often has quality control issues, so their timing events need to be checked thoroughly. Forth you would have been better off with the 4.3" stroke, the 4.5" just doesn't make good peak numbers, but are great in the midrange.
I agree, a 12:1 532” would be a phenomenal motor with the P51’s
Yeah I immediately thought of the cam timing as well. Especially with the peak torque. Intake as well though I agree. Those heads are designed for alot of airflow. Strictly na really needs to be 13 or even 14:1 but with the nitrous I'm with you yet again 12:1 would have been the spot
@@johnhamblin12201 Kaase made 700hp with those heads out of the box on a 466” @ 7000rpm with only 12:1 compression, so we all know there is a bunch left in them. Past a 532”-545” motor, the SR-71’s are the better suited head until about 598”-632” where the A460’s take over. I agree on you points about camshaft profiles
We've only done 2 motors with the SR71s a 598 that make 964 @ 6300. The 521 we did made 1006, but that one is a radical high rpm number for a comp car, hand built intake with 2 Dominators, 286 degrees @ .050 intake duration, 15.2 cr.
@@johnhamblin12201 Hello,. Hey,. I wanna built a 557,. Will a 12.1 CR. Still be safe if I decide to spray a 250 shot of nos?. Or should i use lower compression ratio?.
Omg i thought this video would never come . Thanks a million richard !!!!!
Bring on the Ford love!!!! I might just watch this channel more 🤷♂️
@kidneybeans …. I prefer Fords too but I can also appreciate performance builds regardless of the brand.
That’s the main reason I subscribed to Richard Holdener’s channel. He doesn’t play favorites like so many of the other professional builders do. When he compares different brands in a one on one dyno test, he does everything possible to keep everything fair and equal if needed.
Richard also provides reliable data about the components being used, specific details about the changes he makes and an honest assessment of the final results.
Check it out. You just might like it 👍.
I would be thrilled with that 557. Reasonable compression, and 700+hp? yes please. I would love to see that with a big single turbo on e85- those numbers would have been just silly.
Running a 700hp rig on cheap pump gas is kinda insane lol
Reasonable compression with that cam would be 12:1, 91 octane
The low end torque of the stock engine is nuts!
Built to pull land yachts.
13ish:1 and E85. Let er eat! 🤷♂️😂
High comp loves the corn juice
@@needmetal3221 boost does too!
Would love to see you use his new SR71 heads!
Yeah, i would like to see a side by side test of the P-51 vs. SR-71 Heads on same exact engine. A 3.85" Stroke Engine and a 4.30" or 4.50" Stroke Engine.
I saw an episode on power nation where they went to Kaase and he built 4.600 x 4.500 stroke 598cid with SR71`s and it cranked out 1132hp..not bad, not bad at all.
@@edpetrocelli2633 …. Unfortunately I missed that episode of Power Nation TV. Those impressive dyno numbers would indicate about 1.9 horsepower per cubic inch. Was this combination “all engine” without any type of power adders ?
Thanks for the info.
@@danielwilson6665 Yes sir it was naturally aspirated and I believe the heads were ported as cast. They were the SR71`s an improvement over the P51`s apparently the intake valve on the 71`s is moved away from the cylinder wall.
You should run a near stock 460 with twins to see what it would make. Maybe so forged internals, mild head porting, mild cam, and the twins. I'm curious to see how well that'd work for how cheap it could be
Kaase ran a test for Hot Rod magazine some years ago comparing 'Wedge vs. Hemi' with his P51's and the Boss 9s. Used a 521 he'd run for hundreds of pulls already for developing parts on. Not only did the hemi heads pull over 900 hp on pump gas... but it was also well over 100 hp more than the P51s..!
The Boss 9s aren't exactly cheap though...
Great job as always Richard. Love your videos. On the MPG set up, I’d like to see their flow numbers, but traditionally BBF with stock heads, even ported stock heads, the exhaust is usually weak and needs more lift and duration. Depending on the flow numbers, a roller cam with something like 240/250 @ .050 and .650/.675” lift int/exh, on a 110 or 112, spec’d at max lift to maximize the flow of the ported heads. Also, I would have ran it with a big 4150 carb and the Stealth compared to the 4500 on the single plane. The Stealth is one of the best all around intakes for the BBF. On the big motor, more cam, more compression and E85, or boost. Keep “The Other Guys” videos coming. Thanks Richard.
Kaase is an absolute Legend !!! I’d say that 557 combo needs atleast 12.1 compression
I love all your Ford stuff N/A
The low compression Killed the power. This build doesn’t do Kaase justice.
I have a very similar combination (.790 lift, 109 LSA)and it made 900hp, 800tq with race fuel.
Yup you defiantly need more compression My buddy built a 545 BBF. . Stock 2 bolt block, has ported Cobra Jet heads, solid roller with less duration but more lift than your Crane, 1050 Dominator 13:1 compression and E85. Makes 900hp at crank N/A. 460 2 bolt blocks and stock cast crank will hold more power than any BBC block and cast crank. 460 crank will hold 1000hp all day until you f up the tune and detonate it to many times. 460 2 bolt block will hold more than that. . Shoosh, dont tell anyone though.
Thanks Richie! Love the 460 BBF's!
Kaase knows how to make power. He's so humble about it to which is freaking awesome. Kaase is Gale Banks alter ego. Both know a ton however one will tell you 20 times in a 5 minute conversation that he knows a lot and the other will give credit to others.
100%
You definitely correct on that one, Jon Kaase is the man when it comes to BBF Stuff.
I like Kaase much better than Banks though.
@@jolness1 Absolutely
@@Parents_of_Twins I misread your original comment. Oops. John is the man. I've been working on a BBF build for my grandpa's old truck and they have been so helpful in putting together a build sheet for good power, good manners for cruising around the street and good reliability. There's an older video of him working on the Bigfoot 1 AR/Ford Performance block/heads and he has lots of critiques of the design, not in a "Alan was an idiot way" but just in the sort of way that someone who is incapable of leaving well enough alone does. So soft spoken and so excited about 385 series engines. I'm a long ways from his shop but next time I can make it down that way, gonna see if I can come check it out. It's the mecca for BBF guys
The 557 needed more compression and a ported intake manifold.
The long end runners need about 20% more CSA at the runner entries, than the (too short) center runners.
Don't overly enlarge the center runners, this will only hurt power down low.
You might want to try the TFS "Mafia" manifold on the 557.
Really like to see a big bang version of the 460 like you've done others. In particular take a late 70s d3ve headed low comp engine and upgrade the cam and springs and intake. Then throw the bigger ebay turbo at it or even the twins. Those setups seem to be cheaper then a good set of aluminum heads with bigger gains. Then even do what you always do and slap the better aluminum heads on and an even bigger cam. No matter what though I really appreciate and love all the different builds you do! Awesome and informative info! Thank you!
Would love to hear the engine idle chop and wow.
In my opinion, the 557 should have been at least 13:1 static compression, and a much tighter LSA. And all big blocks need a tunnel ram!
Yes, compression was likely too low. Based on the stated cam, static compression ratio and specs from a Procomp 557 stroker kit, I ran the numbers through the online Wallace Racing Dynamic Compression Ratio calculator. The DCR comes out at 6.96:1. That seems too low to me for an aluminum headed engine. A target DCR of 8.0 to 8.3 would be a better number. A 11.5:1 static compression ratio would yield a DCR of 8.12.
I think the compression was the major factor. With that big solid roller, I think the lack of compression was letting the cylinder pressure bleed too much. Compression.
Buddy has a 1000hp 575 10.5:1 witb worked over 3D CAD P-51's and my bro has a 557 with out of the box P-51's at 10:1 made 774hp. Kaase makes power.
Man his motor is only 10.5:1 and made 1000? I’m doing something wrong up here lmao
@@droppedf100 here is a video of our trucks. I made 1140 at the tires in the green one. Black one is NA 575 10.5:1. Usually he is scraping 9's. Both are full weight 4000 plus. ruclips.net/video/STesddaQgjA/видео.html
@@79stroker lol it’s joe toal I figured you’d see my truck on the thumbnail
@@droppedf100 hahaha too much on the brain and didn't notice lol. Still love yours and your dads rigs!!!
@@79stroker love your trucks as well. Is the season starting up there yet?
We need a boosted 557 segment. Would love to see a twin turbo big bang is needed!
So close, yet no boosted BBF. Maybe a part 2? With boost? (Kasse, Mad Porter, L.Evans, R.Malik, and some other BBF guru’s I’m sure could provide some insight) thanks for the videos, just need a boosted BBF....
I’d love to see what any of these Ford guys could do with a set of sr-71’s and a significant amount of boost
You can use his new sr71 heads. Easy 1000 hp.. but believe compression and maybe intank may be holding it back
I built my 460 35+years ago. I used an Isky 262 hydraulic cam, an Edlebrock SP2P intake and carb, Rhodes anti pump up lifters, and 1.75 roller rockers. The block was a '73, honed only, Hasting steel rings, stock crank/bearings, with '68 heads (estimated compression was 9.6/1) and long tube headers with 2" exhaust. I put this in my "69 F-250 with a C-6 (with a shift kit), an adjustable vacume modulator set to shift at 5500 RPM, and a low stall converter. I ran 33x12.5x16.5 on 10" slotted aluminum rims and stock 4.10 differential. Didn't have access to a dyno, but was able to keep up with a 78 IROC Z to 100MPH with no problem.
no iroc in 78....
I think a Turbocharger rather than NOS would have been a better path to 1000+ HP!
Definitely compression! We’ve built many BBF and always 12+ compression ratio. Cool video. Like to see this motor as is with a turbo.
I wanna see a 460 big bang video
I remember in my reading Kasse said that the 4.5” stroke 460 doesn’t usually make more power than a 4.3” stroke just more Tourqe. He also said that a 4.3” stroke was his choice on street motors.From articles in PHR magazine with Kasse’s help on a 530ci with P-51 heads they built, the lift was much higher. .775” That engine made over 790 hp. More compression definitely would help too.
If you ran 11 to 1 or 12 to 1 area, that engine would make 850hp easy. Shoot if you ran 14 to 1 that engine would make 1000hp easily naturally aspirated.
Yep. Not enough compression... and lacking on cam duration for the exhaust side
The compression and cam. The Kaase test mule engine is a 521 and it makes 800 with 10:1 and the cam is 273/280 duration
791/787 lift
109 lobe separation
I've been waiting for a 460 build a long time......thanks. More compression for sure, bigger cam, a bit more timing and advancing cam to put more area under the curve for a better average tq/hp. You couldn't hope for better flow than Jon Kaase heads. I ran 10.5:1 compression and it really made a difference. Perhaps you could get Jon to come in and lay his hands on the valve covers and chant a few Ford words?
Why don't you add a Twin Turbo with that compression? And SR71 heads
Diehard Chevy guy, but I've had several fine Fords. Love the info. Thanks!
I was just thinking about a Big Bang 460 Ford video yesterday... Nice!
Not a fan on seeing people blow up shit for no reason but I’d be up for sacrificing a bbf for peak numbers with some boost
So when you ran out of nitrous why did you not go to the local speed shop and pick up another bottle?.... Then complete the test properly! 🤔🙄🤨
When are you going to run boost on 557 ? Thanks Richard
The Ford intake is one problem. There are lots better intakes out there and I understand that you had this already, but Kaase has about the best intakes. Everyone knows compression is down too, as the new combo actually reduced CR from stock, in this test. You're just about there, and some of the smallest changes on these engines will have big results on the dyno. Now just step up to the SR-71 heads and cam it up right, and let it break the dyno.
Please continue to make more big block ford videos. A turbo 521 with SR71 or A460 heads would be awesome to see!
Pump gas compression....all the way.
Step to 1150 Dominator. 11 or 12:1, 110 or C12, crank a few more degrees of timing, and a better intake manifold, and 2¼ primaries.
Should be 950+
There's an episode of engine power where they build a 598 with Kaase's SR-71 heads and that one makes over 1100hp. Can't remember was the compression was on that one but I think it was in the neighborhood of 14:1. All I remember is the guy being sad because the Kaase 598 outperformed his 632 even though they had similar compression and cam. Kaase knows how to make power that's for sure. I'd love a 429 with Kaase heads. (I had said 557 earlier sorry for the mistake.)
I've seen that episode too. I thought Kaase did a Max Effort 598 that made like 1224 HP with the SR-71 Heads. Single Dominator think was like 15:1 or 16:1 Compression.
@@badass6.0powerstroke10 Would not surprise me. Kaase knows how to make crazy power. I think it's funny the way he talks about making 800-900hp like it's a 8hp Briggs and Stratton. He's just so casual about it. He's definitely one of my favorite engine builders just because he's so humble. Banks obviously knows a hell of a lot but he just can't help himself from telling you that he knows a hell of a lot and that type of personality bugs me.
@@Parents_of_Twins I agree with you 100 % Jon probably the Best out there when it comes to BBF stuff. Super Humble too. And I've seen few Gale Banks videos, very smart also, but very cocky in a way. I couldn't Agree more.
More love to ford more clicks from me
Just my humble opinion...it needs BOOST!!
The one i was waiting for...nice!
More camshaft and carb/intake sizing would have REALLY woke this up for absolute power, and more compression to a lesser extent.
557 cubic inches takes a lot of airflow to support, and the cam and intake here aren't enough for the job.
Too bad it didn't happen in this video, these make really impressive power when the of the combination is better matched to the displacement and cylinder heads!
You may have been better off with a smaller stroker kit. How well did the head and intake ports match up. I think it needs more compression but not over 12:1. Was it running too rich could have lost horsepower on fuel and compression compatibility. I have a suggestion. How about a 351w build with something around 252-260 duration and add a turbo. Essentially making a 351w eco boost.
In the 80’s I raced a stock camshaft .030 over, 1969 460 with stock intake, 750 Holley and 14 to 1 compression and made 410 hp and 620ft of torque on chassis dyno through a stock C6 automatic. Ported exhaust manifolds3” exhaust with the original shoebox Flowmasters. Had to run 112 octane to stop detonation. Anything over 32 degrees timing and it would misfire. It was a 3/8 mile dirt oval pure stock so that’s why it had the stock cam and stock parts. It even had a stock air cleaner with the lid flipped. It was in a 73 Torino and dominated by well over a second a lap until it broke a rod from air in the oil starving 1 and 5. Lasted about 4 weeks of racing. My conclusion was that it LOVED the compression. The dyno guy was shocked at the numbers. Didn’t have enough tire (7’ tread) to use full throttle even on a dry fast track
4.3 stroke might have been a little more advantageous with a better rod length to stroke ratio for high rpm power. Definitely, though, 13-14:1 compression ratio would have gathered far better efficiency. I run 10.5+:1 compression for heavy towing and small cams in BBF as they are quite friendly with timing without detonation, as long as it's done correctly. I suspect you would have seen at least 125 horse with compression up to par for the cam size you chose. 557 would respond quite nicely to a tunnel ram as well...
Why didn't you try testing the Ford 600 cu inch engine that you can buy from Ford racing. I would love to see the dyno numbers on it.
The most impressive thing about this video is how you man-up and shoulder the responsibility for the results not not turning out quite as well they could have.
As you pointed out, the compression ratio being so low is definitely a limiting factor in the overall performance of this good combination of components. You will nail it next time, Richard !
Agreed. He always shows whats up, good or bad.
Need big block fords with boost ! C'mon Richard help us out.
Compression 12 to 1 don't port heads
I'd say slightly too much lift in the camshaft and that the cam wasn't designed to raise the static compression
p51 heads vs Trickflow. looking for a higher torque from 1500 to 5500 RPM out of a 4.5 stroked 460. witch would be best. also is there a quality difference.
HAVE NOT TESTED THOSE BACK TO BACK
I'm currently building a 552ci 385 for myself. But I jumped into the sr71 heads for later use on a 598. But in the following months I should have the worked head,intake,ans hopefully a built ahortblock. Getting parts atm is next to impossible it seems so its pay and wait worse then ever. But once I'm finished I'd love to bolt it to the dyno and see what we can ring out of it. Should sneeE and make 900plus
Hi Richard, I built a 514 stroker. I used the Kasse cobra jet heads. I ported the heads and given the .080 overcome used the big bore gaskets and relieved the exhaust shrouding caused by rotating the valves in the chamber. Port matched the same intake you had. My cam was a hydraulic roller that had .611 lift and around 246@.050. We came in at 599.8 hp @ 5500 and 645 tq@ 4100. We were hoping for that same missing 100 hp. Here's another thing, I made 5 pulls and the best pull came with total timing at 24 degrees... that was pretty shocking. We had big dish Mahle pistons that put us in the 9.8 comp range... I think these motors with their fantastic chambers want over 11 to 1 comp. I would guess it could run e15 gas or 93 octane with 12 to 1. I just feel like they are lazy with low compression. The basic combustion chamber layout is one of the best in the business and it needs to be taken advantage.
Needs more compression, sure, but I think it could use more air. It's choking.
Kaases better head is the SR71, The P51 heads are okay basicly a stock style replacement but annoyingly uses different valve relief , if u want proper big block Horsepower trickflow A460 heads and bluethunder C460 head any Boss 429 style heads those would make over 1k on a 557
It's a combination needs a bunch more compression like 12 or 13 to 1 and you need more camshaft generally a big block Ford wants a .100 more Lift then a big block Chevy
Richard, Once again you have shown a warts and all account of the upgrades on a stock 460 then upgrade to 557 stroker. Compression is the issue that you addressed. Please keep making this type of video...It definitely keeps me watching. Not the ultimate HP/TQ engine with no problems that others may show. People make mistakes and real people show them. Great content. Keep it up and keep going.
You should do a compression vs hp video by changing heads and gaskets.
Cam lobe separationn angle should have been 108° or so and compression 13:1 and 110 octane or higher race gas..cam lift could have been in the .800-.900 range as well.
More compression, and don't run out of laughing gas, it's not funny
That’s the problem. Thanks Richard
Awesome! 150k
Thanks!!
As was stated before not enough compression,what were you thinking really! You call yourselves professionals. Next not enough cam or intake manifold and lastly as stated before Crane cams are shit I wouldn’t beat a dead dog with one let alone put it into an engine.
The .060 over pistons were low compression 8:1 .
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. That’s why the stock motor only made 349. I think an early motor in good shape with a carb and headers should be closer to 400
Great video Richard, as always. I agree with you on the oiling system upgrades, scraper, windage tray and deep sump. If you leave the compression as is, that cam needs a 102 degree lobe separation + 3 advance with 1.73 rockers. If you take the compression to 12.5 :1 you could widen that to 104 degrees + 3 advance.....that should put you into very high 800s in hp......will also raise the tq.....and may even run on a blend of 93 and race gas.....
Did u use the calculation that David vizard uses to find this? I used David calculation and I came out with 102 lsa, just didn’t sound right to me?
@@braydencozbyVizard is foolish... 102 is too tight for that duration. Compression is simply too low... with 14:1, more carb needed...
LSA can't be calculated... It's about valve events, not LSA alone. When one understands the effects of rod to stroke ratio compared to cam events, they see how LSA calculations will bugger up max power efforts... Vizard tried too hard to make engine building an algebra equation, and it simply isn't true. Too many variables, and too few tests... One set of cam figures with one LSA would need 5 tests, so 25 tests minimum on one duration, 5 LSA figures to find it out. Instead, Vizard only tested enough to make his theory appear feasible, while not testing all cam events. His testing is incomplete.
That 460 (7.5L) engine needs more air, in another video Richard uses a double throttle body on a 6L engine, for that reason he needs a double carburettor (Dominator 1050 cfm, hahaha (evil laugh))
This. The 557 at 6300 rpm is pulling 1050+ cfm...the carb is maxxed out.
Almost 800hp and almost 800ft pounds of torque all motor. And that's bad? Hmm... Okay.
Always kool videos Richard,, but I have to ask why did you put those low comp Pistons in that engine?
Respect level increased! Taking ownership for the slight failure like that and doing what you do, you must learn at a rapid rate. Honestly jealous. I work in a completely different industry and if I found a place that would let me learn that rapidly, I’d take it, too.
People underestimate the value of being somewhere that accelerates your learning.
I missed it Richard, was this BBF a front sump, mid sump, or dual sump oil pan? To me I've only seen the windage/oiling issues on the dual & mid sump, or I could be completely wrong. I've always been curious on the differences of just that when it comes to performance on these multiple oil pan versions Ford used. Personally (and if I have room) I always opt for the front sump versions.
possible valve spring insufficiency, lack of compression, and insufficient valve overlap.
Would a tighter lobe center help. I think those p51 are a little small for that stroke. Maybe 106-108? Same duration?
I would've used the BOSS heads from Kasse with 12:1slugs.
The problem was you didn't add boost
What did we learn? You should never build an engine without a honking big turbo or 2
Needs more compression and different intake to help it breathe
Another intake manifold would of helped a mafia intake or the new intake manifold from eliminator the cjve
Personally I blame squirrels
ok but more than 700 with that compression is still pretty good
Ford big blocks might not be the baddest engines but they sure are damn pretty.
Would be nice to see a procharger on this combo
More compression, better intake manifold = 850 hp minimum.
Well we know that the cheapo GM junk is exactly that, cheap to build. MOPAR and FORD being better quality are subsequently more expensive to build. Of course one gets what the pay for and that’s both in performance and longevity with the MOPAR & FORD. I have to say I was going to talk about “shoulda” when building these however after reading David Boggs post right before mine I see he’s already covered the same basic parameters I was going to mention. 12to1 compression and Fuel Injection are also critical on these 460 block based engines.
your comments are based in reality-every manufacturer makes good products
I think the big cam killed your dynamic compression with the 557, put some dome pistons in her!
Looking at doing a build with a Ford Performance A460 block, bored and stroked to 598 cubes with SR-71 Kasse heads hoping to make almost 1100hp NA. More compression and run Kasse intake with the P-51 heads and more maybe more duration to cam in your 557.
The heads limited you
Would love to see what the ported stock heads would do with the stroker. Also Just curious. Why the pulls are at higher RPM for each combination.? And is it possible to do a pull from around 1500 rpm? Sorry I just don't know anything about dyno's.
WE DON'T PULL IT DOWN THERE BECAUSE NO ONE IS EVER AT WOT AT 1500 RPM
Kasse built basically the identical build and made over 850 hp on 11:0 compression with P-51 heads. You didn’t give it a chance with the anemic compression you built it with!
then it wasn't identical
If you were looking for 1,000+ hp it should have had 12.0 compression or more and a ported intake. I thank you for the video I always like the “other guys” videos, but this is a poor representation of trying to achieve a 1,000hp!!!
we didn't TRY to achieve 1000 hp-we achieved it
love it Richard compression maybe a tad of cam timing and headers Kasse would use
1000 hp on pump gas....I'm not seeing the downside...
Then why have you not built a 460 to blow away the Chibbies in NHRA prostock?? Until you do that I'm not interested..
these are not Pro Stock builds
This is so Awesome!!! You know powernation did a 557 to 1000hp! Id really like to know how to make the 557 0r 4.3 stroke survive oiling and such. Also how do the budget afr heads compare to the p51?
There was an episode of Engine Power a while back where Kaase made over 1K hp on his engine dyno with a higher compression 557 BBF.
It was a 598, using an A-460 block. Higher compression, SR-71 heads, but made over 1100 hp with a single 4500 style carb. Monster power.
@@merylpelosi8485 yep and 5hat was on two dyno pulls also bill was suprised 32 less cubes 100+ more hp than his 454/632