Even as an Orthodox believer, I respectfully disagree with the use of the word worship in regard to the saints. Recognizing God’s Holy presence in them, and even reverencing the divination imparted to them by the Holy Spirit, isn’t to say we worship them as saints; but rather we worship God who has brought them to His Glory.
I think he just needs to clarify what worship means, there are 2 words(Greek), Latria(worship to God) and Dulia(veneration of saints). Worship as I have seen taught is an offering to God, specifically the Eucharist during Liturgy.
No matter how many new words you create worship means to sing praises, praying, kneeling and putting someone in high authority. Everyone of these things are being done by catholics for mary and saints in front or otherwise statues. You are worshipping not just venerating
No, the Bible even makes distinctions between worship and veneration in the psalms in the Greek. God actually requires veneration of relics throughout the old testament
I was reading the book of Jude and HE quotes the book of Enoch. Why doesn't Jude follow Sola Scriptura? "Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,† (Jude 1:14, OSB)" Also, at the end of 2 and 3rd John, he says that he isn't going to write anymore, because it's better to speak in person... Hmmmm
@@bonniemagpie9960 But it refutes Sola Scriptura, which means that Scripture was made for the church, not church for the scripture. So, if the church says to pray to Saints, that is what is right.
In Acts 17:28, Paul cites a pagan poet to illustrate God's qualities to his audience. We don't count said pagan's works as canonical scripture. 🙃 Enoch remains Deuterocanon because a) it is not part of the original Hebrew narrative (Masoretic text) and b) frequently deviates (ie, contradicts) said narrative. Therefore it remains on the periphery.👍
@@jonathanspeicher5298 the masoretic text is not the "original hebrew" it is based on the leningrad codex which comes along at 1000 AD approx. all second temple judaism scholars know that there is not a unified "jewish canon" of the OT - also you view ignores the septuagint which was cited in the NT and used heavily in the early church (which includes the "deuterocanon")
It's hard to make your way through the Psalms without praying to Saints and beings other than God. Psalm 102/103 is a great example. Psalm 30 is another.
Not trying to say you can’t pray to the Saints as I truly believe that is correct as I am a Catholic but I investigated the Pslams you wrote down and I couldn’t really find any connections to praying to the Saints or other beings. Could you quote me to the specific scripture you are referring to?
@@memesouls8653 Psalm 103:20 is a prayer addressed to angels. The verses that follow are prayers to God's hosts, and to His works. And Psalm 30:4 is a prayer addressed to God's faithful people, aka His Saints as some translations put it. If I were to prayerfully read those Psalms, I would have to pray to angels, Saints, God's hosts and God's works.
@@ethan46199how does this: “20 Praise the Lord, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will. 22 Praise the Lord, all his works everywhere in his dominion. Praise the Lord, my soul.” Say they are praying to the angels??? They are simply saying that it’s great that they do the Lords work. Praise is not prayer, praise is not veneration, praise is not worship.
@@ethan46199 I’m confused because I just read those and they appear to be addressed towards God. (Once again I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just trying to figure out good places to defend prayer to the saints). Unless I’m just reading them in the wrong context and an earlier passage explains that it is addressed towards the angels. But from what I see from Psalms 102-103 is that they are just addressed towards God.
@@memesouls8653yeah the best book in OT to pray for saints is wisdom, and he does not adresses prayer, but eternal life, we can just say rhey can pray, it exalts heavely works, and saintliness
As a Lutheran new to Catholicism, I understand the Communion of Saints in a very simple way: everything good about them is *because of God, for God, and points us back to God.* Just like with any Biblical figure (Moses, Abraham, etc.), they are not great by their own merits, but because God has chosen them to demonstrate his power and glory through. While we can and do pray to God himself, he also often wants us to engage with each other. We are social creatures after all. It is comforting and encouraging to see how God works in others' lives and changes them for the better! I feel great connection from that fact, and so have begun praying with the saints :)
As a Protestant, I appreciate that you differentiated between high church and low church, because it really does make a difference. I have Oriental Orthodox friends, and the way I understand the saints and their function is thusly: The saints are not worshipped, or prayed to in the sense that one prays to God, but rather they are asking the saints to pray for them in a similar fashion to the way you ask your friends to pray for you. Of course, whether or not this works hinges on the premise that they can hear you in Heaven, and are aware of the request. The scripture cited is Revelation Ch 5 and Ch 6, mainly. Particularly 6:10 where they ask God to bring justice to the earth for those believers who are being martyred. So I can see how they have come to those conclusions, but the reasoning behind it is more on the inductive side. I wouldn't go as far as to say that people who ask the saints to intercede are not saved, or engaging in idolatry, but I do think it's a gray area. In the Lutheran confession, which is my church, we have a generally positive impression of Orthodoxy, and we have tried to achieve communion with them on different occasions. We don't actually disagree that sharply, and where we do it's usually over wording rather than substance, although our view is that making prayer requests of saints is misdirected mail. Under some circumstances I would be willing to join an Orthodox Church (like if I move to Russia), and if I had to choose between Orthodoxy and low-church/rock and roll type Protestant churches, I would easily choose Orthodoxy. However, for me, praying to, or asking the saints to pray for me, is not something I would be willing to do. I don't think the case for this practice is airtight. As for the RC Church, I do think they engage in idolatry, particularly with Mary. They straight up used saints and created saints days as a means of getting pagans to join their church.
Yes, of course you would chose the Orthodoxy. Same with me, I'd also chose it if I had to chose between the Orthdox and Evangelicals? Why? The high-church Protestants as you reffer to us are much more close to the Catholics or Orthodox than to the Evangelicals (or low-church Protestants as you reffer to them). Its beacouse the Evangelicals arent close to any of it, not even Protestantism, and shouldnt actually be called Protestant. Protestantism si prehaps set of doctrines that make you Protestant and the Evangelicals dont submit to them.
@@federativemapping1974 Right, and for non-denominationals it's even worse because they have no process of ordination or any oversight. By their own admission they aren't Protestants, because they are unaffiliated with everyone. One thing the newer churches do really well is bring in new people, because they engage in more street preaching than anyone else. But once you are in their church they don't offer much. Just a box with some rock. A huge part of their problem is that they have no tradition, and they have this idea that each generation should have their own music and their own way of doing things. Because of this they are unstable, and they end up with things like women led worship and guys with skinny jeans.
I think Theosis is an important factor in Saint Veneration, as they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and become gods by grace, so share in the divine energies, just not the essence. And so we should respect the Holy Spirit and Divine energy that indwells them otherwise that would be offensive to God himself.
As a Southern Baptist, I think this particular topic comes up the most when Protestants I personally interact with poke at the Roman and Orthodox Catholic Churches. I try to explain WHY the practice makes sense, is beautiful, and urge my peers to take pause when casting insults and judgments towards the two denominations that rightfully claim Apostolic Succession. I admit it’s very frustrating for me every time I hear it, and I can’t imagine how annoying it is for you all. God bless you all, and I look to the day our master will make us a unified church once more and forever.
Honestly, the only time it gets annoying is when we explain Dulia/Veneration and they stick their fingers in their ears and call us pagans anyway, lol. Its a little bit like walking my 110 pound Rottweiler down the street and the neighbor's Chihuahua runs up and yaps at him - my Rottweiler is sublimely unconcerned because he's more worried about the bear problem around here. Having said that, when people like you speak up, all that frustration goes away in an instant and its replaced by genuine warmth and friendship. So yeah, I encourage constructive dialog between all of us because I think we're stronger together than divided, as long as our respective boundaries are respected (papal ecumenism is weakening the Catholic Church, and I pray for our Pope every day, but find myself looking to the next conclave with a mixture of anticipation and dread). Anywho, God bless! 🙂
@@katydidd6321 I recently opened a catholic prayer book. 75% of the prayers were addressed to Mary. another 10% addressed to saints. Only 15% were addressed to the Father, Son, or Spirit. How is that at all reasonable? Why are there no records of this practice in the earliest fathers? How come I never read a prayer addressed to Mary in Origen or Tertullian or any of them? Much less finding an example in scripture where people ALWAYS pray to God the Father and Jesus Christ. What am I missing?
@@katydidd6321 Those are not good reasons. You're telling me that people don't memorize prayers to Mary? Why on earth would God want me to do something like pray to Mary and then not give any clear indication in his word? Why not, simply give me one example, from the scripture rather than trying to justify a practice after the fact?
⚪ (From Dante's Divine Comedy) The Nine Heavens, the Three Archangels and the Two Saints of Paradise: I Temperance, II Prudence and III Peace Saint Raphael, IV Wisdom, V Fortitude and VI Justice Saint Gabriel, VII Faith Saint Michael, VIII Hope Saint Joseph, IX Charity Saint Mary.
@@alexmason8557 oh I see. You don’t actually believe in eternal life. You don’t actually believe what Christ tells us about him binding death. You just pay lip service but when the rubber meets the road it back to dust from where we came. Well a proper Christian believes in eternal life and whether you believe or not you won’t be dying anytime soon. You will go into repose (a sleep) if you are holy you will wait in paradise. The saints there are conducting liturgy and taking our prayers to Christ like we see in revelations. So there is no difference other than location.
Beautiful and very helpful explanation of this practice. I’m technically a Protestant but I’ve been looking into the apostolic Churches and these kinds of practices and this is very interesting. Thank you for sharing
Not a fan of the analogy quite frankly. We venerate and pray to the saints because they are in God having been spiritually interwoven in a specific and supra-rational way. Their special connection to God means we need a special connection to them insofar as they a have privileged capacity for intercession in addition to being exemplars.
The thing that is hard for me is not asking the saints to intercede so much, but singing hymns and praise that belongs to only to God to Mary. I am a Protestant, however I believe that there is only 1 church. Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant, we were all redeemed by the blood of Jesus and will come to know Him and commune with Him fully if we surrender to Him fully that we might be fully known. I live near a Coptic Orthodox church that I have attended. I study the writings of the Church Fathers and love church history. All that to say, while I love all my brothers and sisters, it is hard to discern the difference between what others do to worship false Gods and what Orthodox and Catholics do to venerate Mary. The songs of praise to her and multiple glorious titles she holds are very hard for me to reconcile with the reality that we are to worship of God alone.
I would suggest that this is a historical oddity, and you can attribute it largely to the radical formulations of Zwingli and Calvin. They and their successors held to a means of interpreting the scriptures that was not grounded in any historical precedent. This does not mean late medieval Latin dogma was correct, rather it's an assertion that the reformed approach to and understanding of scriptural injunctions was grounded in an early modern rationalist mindset, and necessarily disconnected from the way anyone in the early Church would have read and understood these same passages. This was a problem that had arisen in Western thought centuries before this, and I believe you can make a strong case that the reformed approach was a natural outgrowth of Western scholasticism. All this is to say, I believe the difficulties for you arise because your understanding of things like worship and honor are grounded in a reformed mindset. There are conclusions that arise naturally from that philosophy that simply do not make sense to someone operating from a different mindset. the inverse is also true, there are conclusions that non reformed people come to and beliefs that arise naturally from the Orthodox philosophy that are difficult for you to understand. This is a prime example, because the veneration paid to saints arises fluidly from the Orthodox understanding of salvation and hope God's energies operate in and through his creation. For us you don't really even need to justify this practice, because it flows naturally from the scriptures when you understand them in the way that you do. But because we are operating from a completely different philosophy this discussion is nearly impossible to have if we are to rely strictly on the scriptures themselves. You will not understand why we conclude things from scripture that we do, and vice versa.
@@DLBBAM thank you for sharing, however, let me say this I am am by no means a fan of John Calvin (though I have read some of his work). I call my self protestant because that seems to be the only other option, however, I am not protesting anything! I am a former Muslim and I was converted to Christ by several supernatural experiences, the first of which was 13 years ago when I heard Jesus' voice outside of the mosque and He told me to leave. I read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation and then when I started reading the second time through, my soul was pierced through as I read Isaiah 53 and I was confronted with the reality of Christ, that I must lose all for Him and follow Him. Since then my life has been a journey of radical transformation. I did not go to church for a long time, but actually after about a month of fasting, prayer and Bible reading, I started preaching the Gospel in the streets. After about 6 months, the Lord told me to go to church! I started attending various churches in order to connect with the Body of Christ, but would always ask questions of the Priests/Pastors because much of what the various church traditions do does not have basis in the Bible. (I read St. Basil call it "non-scriptural" not un-scruptural, mind you) Simply put, I know who purchased me. I was lost in darkness and sin and Jesus purchased me and brought me into His glorious Kingdom. In the hours and days spent in worship and prayer, I have never once felt inclined to direct my songs, prayers, shouts of praise and thanksgiving to anyone other than the triune God. There have been trimes when I have prayed for others (some who were non believers or worshippers of false gods) and God physically healed them or touched them in some way, and I always make clear that I am nothing but a servant, and not a particularly good one either. All glory, honor and praise belongs to Him. I want to understand my brothers in the faith. I think there is too much unnecessary division in the Church of God. We forget that we are saved by grace through faith, not perfect theology, much less sophisticated philosophy. (And yes, I understand that God is extremely sophisitcated!) Thank you for answering. May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you and all the family of God. I am going to re-read your response now. [Upon re-reading, I am reminded of this, which you may find interesting: the reformers were direct descendants of the Church Fathers. They did were not totally separate from Church tradition, they simply believed that some errors had been introduced and the church needed to be reformed. St. Augustin had massive impact on both Calvin and Luther and it is plain to see, especially in Calvin. The influence of Prosper, a Western Father whom I do not belive is recognised within orthodoxy, on Luther and his theology is also very clear.]
@@brianlarue3540 I rejoice with you and give thanks to God for the gift of his grace to you. I would add that nobody is teaching that we worship the saints, and even when there are hymns sung in honor to the saints you can tell clearly if you pay attention that the praise and honor is directed to God. What we honor in the Saint is not the man himself, but it is the work that God has worked in and through him. It would not be so different from me telling your story which you just shared with me to another. The witness of your own life gives no honor and credit and glory to you, because you did not accomplish these things. It gives honor and glory to God because it is he who has done these things. It is right and proper for us to commemorate and to glorify the work that God does in the lives of his holy ones. The saints are an inspiration and all example to us, and they show us by their example how God works in his creation. It is true that through the long history of the Church people have gotten these things out of place and prayed to saints and Mary instead of Christ, and this is a grave error. There are many other things that could be said, but it's best not to get distracted and carried away by too much speaking. God bless you, and may he continue to lead you to all truth. I will add to this one small thing It is tempting for us to judge things on the basis of what we know and what we believe to be correct. However, the scripture frequently instructs us not to do this, as it invariably gives place to our own pride which is easily apprehended by demons. Instead Christ implores us to judge teachers and spirits by their fruits.
The issue is the definition of prayer, if y’all just clarify we don’t shun saints or angels and they’re in Christ so it’s all good, I’m not a Protestant or part of the Orthodox Church but I understand this, though I personally don’t address them unless they’re there, I ask the Holy Spirit who is in them and me, to anoint me with their spirit to work for Gods will, if they want to pray with it and it’s Gods will it will happen
I like (and admire also) the fact that you guys are representatively defending the Orthodox (and with it the broader Catholic understanding) position on the communion -and more specifically the veneration or honoring- of the saints. But still, as a non-protestant inclined to catholic and orthodox theology, I’m not persuaded by this distinction. At least (I think) you are making progress in accepting the often dangerous parallelism there is between the more common (and to a certain extent traditional) distinction between “latria” and “dulia”. I believe in the intercession of the saints (from them to us on earth) because I think is implicitly taught in the Bible, but to pray and intercede for saints (whether in and of themselves or in a “relative” sense) is far from the less developed biblical view (and I would also add, as most honest students of historical theology do) that the testimony of the Fathers and the broader theological heritage from Tradition does not coincide with the view you’re defending. Thanks though for this awesome content you guys are providing to common people like me. A believe that we all should let Christ have the final word on all these theological issues that have developed through the history of our Faith… perhaps in the middle way we will find the individual truths that leads us all to the ultimate Truth.
My God! The vision of the world is so much more powerful, glorious, and blessed when we see the Saints as being fully alive (and even more alive than us) in their martyrdom! 🙏 Blessed are the Saints that truly are the light of the world as the Light of the world told us in the Gospels. 🙏 Thank you very much for this! You don't know just how needed this was for me diving into Orthodoxy, coming from a Reformed Orthodox denomination! God bless you!
What is the sealed book or scrolls in Isaiah chapter 29 that both the learned and unlearned can't understand ,compare revelation of John chapter 5 same sealed scrolls,that no man in heaven (saints) or on the earth or under the earth are not worthy to open or even look into it. So what is this sealed book or scrolls.
Anywhere I can read or hear more on the understanding that we are now in the “1000” year reign of Christ and that the first resurrection has already taken place and thus the Saints are now ruling and reigning with Christ? I’ve heard this eluded to a few times and haven’t quite wrapped my mind around it.
You can lookup postmillenialism (or amillenialism) to find people who defend this position or similar positions. But specifically Seraphim is heavily influenced by James Jordan, who has a lecture series on revelation where he explicates this view in detail.
Why not just directly come before God then? There is only one mediator between God and Man, being Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:22:23 tells us of how he has brought us into his presence through the finished work on the cross, so that means we can directly connect with him without any other intercession apart from that of Jesus Christ.
@@joshuadonahue5871 that is completely different than talking to spirits that are not in the material world any longer. David never talked about asking saints that are already in heaven for help. Instead he called on the Lord for assistance.
@@agfromheaven566 It's not completely different, it's actually analogous in precisely the ways which your original objection targets. If "there is one mediator" means that it's wrong to solicit the saints for their intercessions, then it would also be wrong to solicit other Christians for their intercessions. In both cases, you are appealing to humans to go before the throne on your behalf. Christ's mediatorial role is unique, but it cannot mean that he is the only intercessor. Otherwise, it would be absurd for Paul to as appeal to it as the reason that we intercede for all men--just look at the preceding verses But you must implicitly recognize this because you abandoned your original argument in favor of a different one. Whether or not it is licit to commune with those who are alive in Christ and ask for their prayers is its own interesting question, but even if there are good reasons not to, your original objection simply cannot be one of them.
‼️I’m thinking of a saint. He is what’s called a “little saint” and his name begins and ends with an H. Maybe one of you can help remind me specifically… 🤔
You didn't start bringing in the scriptures until around the seven minute mark and even the ones you used aren't conclusively in favor of veneration and prayers for the intercession of the saints... 🤷
Not conclusive in your what? Interpretation? Opinion? Who are you to tell people the concrete meaning of scripture? An Apostle? Are you a descendant of one? EO have academic descendants of the Apostles so I'm gonna go ahead and trust their interpretation more than yours.
@@reddyforlenny9389 claims to direct succession from the Apostles is not unique to EO. Most confessional Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) can make valid claims to succession. Also, the fact that Constantinople was bulldozed by the Muslim horde and Rome was not gives more credibility to Rome's succession over EO (the Throne of St Peter or something like that). 👍 Anyways, my point was that he barely gave any scripture in his "Scriptural Defense" of veneration of the saints and the few passages he gave didn't even directly demonstrate anything like the EO practice. 🤷
@jonathanspeicher5298 It's not exclusive but it's an indicator that a church has the ability to refer to reliable sources, and protestants can't claim Apostolic succession because they are in direct opposition to apostolic teaching and tradition. And Constantinople fell when the Emperor was Uniate so that's a hilariously backfiring point. And he does literally cite scripture you just disagree with the interpretation, which is typical because you have no real basis or tradition to guide your interpretation, you go off of what you alone understand/desire from the text omitting things like contextual history, analogue speech of their day, ancient Israeli culture being referenced, etc etc... Scriptura is a self defeating point, nowhere in the bible is there a cannon for what should go in or out. You literally rely on a tradition set by man to trust in your cannon, a man that comes from a schismatic church who then split off even further away basing his decisions on discrediting the papists than actually respecting historical Christianity.
@@reddyforlenny9389 I didn't say he didn't cite scripture; I said the scripture he cites makes no apparent, forensic relationship to the the EO practice of veneration of the saints. The concept of the Infallible Rule of Scripture as introduced by the Reformers does not imply Scripture as sole authority, but rather the only rubric for judging what qualifies as orthodox Christian teaching. Clearly you have never read the Scriptures so ultimately it is a moot point.
The New Testament makes it crystal clear Jesus is our only mediator before God. (1 Tim 2:5, Acts 4:12) The only references to image veneration in the first few hundred years in the church are quotes condemning the practices of pagans or Gnostic heretics. Praying to icons of the saints is a practice introduced in the Dark Ages that was championed by John of Damascus and forced on the church by Empress Irene, a woman who blinded her own son and is rumored to have murdered her own husband.
Relative worship is going to turn a lot of Protestants away and confuse some orthodox even. Bad choice of words. You guys should correct this please. Many Fathers of the church used ways to explain things that although may have been correct they were asked not to for the sake of not confusing people. Think this is one of those moments.
This sounds like a defence of what Luther fought for, not invoking saints. (More like Tobit than like calling on Anthony of the Padua, thesaint of lost things).
Another thing Luther has never said... He venerated the saints and prayed to them As well as every Lutheran or lots Protestants do. When you talk about Protestants discouraging the prayers or intercessions of the saints the problem is you probably talk about the Evangelicals and reffer to them as Protestants (since they really arent)
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 how do you reconcile that? Sola scriptura; tradition is all fine and good but it must be corrected what do you think half the new testament is but correcting churches that were failing. The entire bible is how the people of God keep failing. Yet with dogma to traditional rather then self reflection and introspection is a failure on the part of orthodoxy and roman Catholicism. Was not Timothy sent to rebuke and lead his elders?
Intercession is asking a saint to pray for you, which is all the Orhtodox do. It’s different than trying to directly communicate with the Saints. The saints don’t talk to us as God does and we aren’t practicing magic to call them from the dead so that they might fulfill a command of us, we are simply asking those glorified by God to pray on our behalf. Very fundamentally different things. It is still sinful to go to a medium and ask them to conjure the dead up to have a two way conversation and seek some kind of power or insight from them. Very different than asking say Saint Peter to pray for you and not expecting any response in return. Only God do we have two way conversations with
Well one problem here: we DO NOT worship the Saints! We venerate them! Saint John Chrysostom said "if you want to venerate a Saint, be that Saint" which means to be inspired from that Saint. Also we ask for their prayers and intercessions. Saints have boldness before God. The Saints are in communion with God and they are more alive than us for we are full of sin. In the bible, numerous times Saints like Moses were asked to intercede in behalf of israel because God was angry at their works (Exodus 32:11-14). We know that the Old Testament is a shadow of the New Testament. There are many more examples but i cannot remember the verses. In the New Testament, in the book of revelation John sees 24 elders seated on Thrones. Who are the 24 elders? According to our Holy Church Fathers the 24 elders are All the Saints. How? Well first of all we need to see what does the number 24 mean. 24 is a symbolic nymber which means the 12 tribes of israel and the 12 Apostles. The 24 elders are all the Saints, one part of them lived under the old testament and the other part lived in the new testament. These 24 elders are seen to hold a censer with much incense in it. And the bible adds "which are the prayers of the saints" (revelation 5:8). The saints here mean the faithful. You see? The Saints offer our prayers in front of God!!! This is called mediation! And it does not contradict (1 Timothy 2:5). Again in revelation, the Saints are now seen to pray for us (revelation 8:2-3) go read for yourselves.
I found myself agreeing with everything said in this video, but still do not understand the benefit of praying *to* the saints. I fully acknowledge recognizing them and honoring them. But why commune with anyone other than Jesus if we have that ability?
What we are asking of the saints is the same thing your preacher does when he says “ok everyone Jim had a heart scare this week let’s all pray for is health”. We say in a respectful manner please Saint Adrian the Martyr for you died for Christ please pray for my soul and intercede for my salvation” Christ says he will take council and you don’t think that council can help you?
@@katiek.8808 The main difference is that the saints are no longer on this Earth, so why ask them to pray for us when they are not alive on this Earth anymore? If your grandmother was a very righteous person and dies, will you ask her to pray for you in heaven? The Saints are alive in heaven but they are not God who can come down on Earth and listen to our prayers. They are not omnipresent like God. Jesus is the only mediator, there is no need to pray to saints of the past to help your prayer reach heaven.
@@ShrekOwO I don’t ask how it works and I’m not going to say what God can do to us and can’t do. What I do know is that StJohn the Theologian sees the saints taking our prayers to The Lord in Revelations. You might not like it and it might not make sense to you but that’s just how it is. And I think it’s important to stay humble and not sound smug and self grandiose like you. “Look I get that he gave the men incorruptible bodies and they had healing powers and other gifts of the Holy Spirit while alive but I’ll be talking the the King of the universe on a one on basis proving my faith. There is so much scripture that points to intercession it’s not even fun to argue this anymore. It’s just you being rebellious.
I think of less of praying to saints, but more of asking the saints to pray for/with you. Amplifying your prayer by having the spirit of someone who dedicated their lives to christ to pray for your flawed sinful self
Dead men can not save you, only Jesus, praying to saints who aren't alive can't save you, praying to anyone, but God is a sign idolatry, and idolatry itself. Only the Trinity Deserve Praise And worship.
He shouldn’t say worship. Zero saints or church fathers used the word worship and used a distinction between worship and veneration. Love Serephim Hamilton but worst take he’s had yet.
*_"Regard not them that have familiar spirits,_*_ neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God._ *_And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits,_*_ and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, _*_I will even set my face against that soul,_*_ and will cut him off from among his people."_ *_"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;_* *_And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him,_*_ and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."_ _"Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel... And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?... Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."_
You are worshiping the Saints because you're praying to them, praying is a form of worship and worshiping Saints, is and forever will be idolatry, and God said in the Bible no idolator will inherit the kingdom of God if you don't believe me, then read the Bible and pray to Jesus for the answers.
No he shouldn’t have used that word and praying only means to ask. We don’t pray to saints in the same sense. We don’t tell them our struggles and ask for things from them and while praying we don’t offer worship, we simply ask them to pray on our behalf as we would our friends. No saints or fathers of the church ever put it the way he put this video. Bad take from him.
Well, you're still committing a serious sin my friend trying to communicate with the Saints who are already dead, that is considered necromancy which means trying to communicate with the Dead, and the Bible clearly says any person who commits necromancy will not inherit the kingdom of God and besides going back to praying to the Saints, the definition of prayer is a form of worship and it also says that in the Bible but it probably wouldn't say that in the Catholic Bible because the Catholic Bible I believe is corrupted no offense the Holy Spirit Led me to know these things to help people like you to know God's truth if you don't believe me my friend then study the Dead Sea Scrolls and the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and there you will know the truth and the truth will set you free But first! I would start with the New Testament first before reading the Old Testament, and I probably wouldn't read The Book of Enoch. I don't think that's Canon
I am currently Protestant (my views are most in line with Lutheranism) but I feel like God is calling me into Orthodoxy. I'm not entirely sure yet and I don't know if I feel confident enough that Orthodoxy is correct and Catholicism isn't. After all, if I neglect Catholicism, I probably won't make it to heaven (if they are correct after all) as their doctrine of "no salvation outside the church" is pretty strict, even in Vatican II. God bless you and your channel.
I am a Child of the Most High God and a follower of the way of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah! Yeshua, the Son of God, taught His disciples how to pray to the FATHER. Yeshua prayed to the FATHER. Yeshua is our High Priest and our only intercession to the FATHER. We are of His royal priesthood. Therefore, pray to the FATHER, in the name of the Son, and through the power of the Holy Spirit. Obey the commands of God or refuse at you own peril. I’ll obey my Messiah over the traditions of flawed men as only Yeshua was sinless and pure. All were born into sin but for Him who was born of the Holy Spirit! Repent for the Kingdom of God has come! I say this all with love for you all and so don’t want anyone to go to hell because of deception. Wow unto me if I do not preach the gospel of Yeshua! All will stand before God and give an account so read and obey scripture and not men. Be blessed in Yeshua’s Mighty Name!
You clearly didn t watch or understood anything. You just threw a text and left the channel. You were not paying attention on the subject. Veneration or paying honors is not the same as Worship. We pray to the Saints as to interceede for us as they are closer to God and his friends and representatives. Worship is exclusive to God (The Holy Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit) and honor to his friends the Saints who have been consecrated in the holiness of God.
The Bible says nothing about praying to Saints, or Mary as intercession. We only pray to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen. Quit deceiving people. All those who died because of God and Christ are referred to as 'Saints' but Jesus tells us to Worship The Lord thy God and serve Him only. Matthew 4:10
@@bonniemagpie9960 yes worship...and serve Him only. Does English grammar elude you? Meaning there are two things, and one is the specific the other the general. Your grammatical interpretation is what gives liberals to say we shouldn't have guns from the 2a. Stop talking demon, you are rebuked in His Holy Name.
I’m sorry but you are simply just mistaken. Prayer to the saints, according to RCC scholars doesn’t come into any church practice outside of gnostic heretics until 680-730ish (this is before orthodox split). If it was so biblical they would have done this from the patriotic fathers and apostles but there is no evidence of that. Sadly you are twisting scripture to fit your current view. You are blinded by your bias.
Do you mean to say that RCC scholars do not find evidence of this practice before those years? Because that is very different from saying that they know it did not exist before that point.
You must be one of those who say the church was in gross error until the reformation? Because this was normative Christianity, and still is normative Christianity. and I don't think it's fair to hold you accountable personally, because you've been brought up in the western world under a religion that identifies in part with Christianity, I understand the lack of knowledge
Attempting to wake dead saints(familiar spirits)is Forbidden in scripture... Deuteronomy 18:11 KJV - Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
@@RickysPlums sleeping. Dead Saints sleep in Christ...just as saint Samuel slept..and had to be awakened-->1 Sam 28:15¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
@@ttterg6152 closer? As your pope blesses sinful relations in the church against the teachings of apostle Paul to REBUKE sinful relationships(is that closer?)--->1 cor 5: Immorality Rebuked 1¶It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12¶For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
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Even as an Orthodox believer, I respectfully disagree with the use of the word worship in regard to the saints. Recognizing God’s Holy presence in them, and even reverencing the divination imparted to them by the Holy Spirit, isn’t to say we worship them as saints; but rather we worship God who has brought them to His Glory.
I think he just needs to clarify what worship means, there are 2 words(Greek), Latria(worship to God) and Dulia(veneration of saints). Worship as I have seen taught is an offering to God, specifically the Eucharist during Liturgy.
No matter how many new words you create worship means to sing praises, praying, kneeling and putting someone in high authority. Everyone of these things are being done by catholics for mary and saints in front or otherwise statues. You are worshipping not just venerating
No, the Bible even makes distinctions between worship and veneration in the psalms in the Greek. God actually requires veneration of relics throughout the old testament
@randallsunderland4331
Please give proof because I also like to know where in Bible we are asked to bow down to relics
Roman Catholic from Uruguay here, new subscriber. Great video!
Ringo starr just sent me to another stratosphere, and then brought me back to familiar grounds
As someone who’s been wrestling with Orthodoxy with an open heart, I really enjoyed this.
Thank you
I was reading the book of Jude and HE quotes the book of Enoch. Why doesn't Jude follow Sola Scriptura? "Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,† (Jude 1:14, OSB)" Also, at the end of 2 and 3rd John, he says that he isn't going to write anymore, because it's better to speak in person... Hmmmm
Says nothing about praying to Saints.
@@bonniemagpie9960 But it refutes Sola Scriptura, which means that Scripture was made for the church, not church for the scripture. So, if the church says to pray to Saints, that is what is right.
The Deuterocanon does@@bonniemagpie9960
In Acts 17:28, Paul cites a pagan poet to illustrate God's qualities to his audience. We don't count said pagan's works as canonical scripture. 🙃
Enoch remains Deuterocanon because a) it is not part of the original Hebrew narrative (Masoretic text) and b) frequently deviates (ie, contradicts) said narrative. Therefore it remains on the periphery.👍
@@jonathanspeicher5298 the masoretic text is not the "original hebrew" it is based on the leningrad codex which comes along at 1000 AD approx.
all second temple judaism scholars know that there is not a unified "jewish canon" of the OT - also you view ignores the septuagint which was cited in the NT and used heavily in the early church (which includes the "deuterocanon")
It's hard to make your way through the Psalms without praying to Saints and beings other than God. Psalm 102/103 is a great example. Psalm 30 is another.
Not trying to say you can’t pray to the Saints as I truly believe that is correct as I am a Catholic but I investigated the Pslams you wrote down and I couldn’t really find any connections to praying to the Saints or other beings. Could you quote me to the specific scripture you are referring to?
@@memesouls8653 Psalm 103:20 is a prayer addressed to angels. The verses that follow are prayers to God's hosts, and to His works. And Psalm 30:4 is a prayer addressed to God's faithful people, aka His Saints as some translations put it. If I were to prayerfully read those Psalms, I would have to pray to angels, Saints, God's hosts and God's works.
@@ethan46199how does this: “20 Praise the Lord, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
22 Praise the Lord, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the Lord, my soul.” Say they are praying to the angels??? They are simply saying that it’s great that they do the Lords work. Praise is not prayer, praise is not veneration, praise is not worship.
@@ethan46199 I’m confused because I just read those and they appear to be addressed towards God. (Once again I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just trying to figure out good places to defend prayer to the saints). Unless I’m just reading them in the wrong context and an earlier passage explains that it is addressed towards the angels. But from what I see from Psalms 102-103 is that they are just addressed towards God.
@@memesouls8653yeah the best book in OT to pray for saints is wisdom, and he does not adresses prayer, but eternal life, we can just say rhey can pray, it exalts heavely works, and saintliness
As a Lutheran new to Catholicism, I understand the Communion of Saints in a very simple way: everything good about them is *because of God, for God, and points us back to God.*
Just like with any Biblical figure (Moses, Abraham, etc.), they are not great by their own merits, but because God has chosen them to demonstrate his power and glory through. While we can and do pray to God himself, he also often wants us to engage with each other. We are social creatures after all. It is comforting and encouraging to see how God works in others' lives and changes them for the better! I feel great connection from that fact, and so have begun praying with the saints :)
We are in the exact same boat lol
Yes, the Lutheran and Roman Catholic doctrine of venerating saints is pretty much same
As a Protestant, I appreciate that you differentiated between high church and low church, because it really does make a difference. I have Oriental Orthodox friends, and the way I understand the saints and their function is thusly: The saints are not worshipped, or prayed to in the sense that one prays to God, but rather they are asking the saints to pray for them in a similar fashion to the way you ask your friends to pray for you. Of course, whether or not this works hinges on the premise that they can hear you in Heaven, and are aware of the request. The scripture cited is Revelation Ch 5 and Ch 6, mainly. Particularly 6:10 where they ask God to bring justice to the earth for those believers who are being martyred. So I can see how they have come to those conclusions, but the reasoning behind it is more on the inductive side. I wouldn't go as far as to say that people who ask the saints to intercede are not saved, or engaging in idolatry, but I do think it's a gray area. In the Lutheran confession, which is my church, we have a generally positive impression of Orthodoxy, and we have tried to achieve communion with them on different occasions. We don't actually disagree that sharply, and where we do it's usually over wording rather than substance, although our view is that making prayer requests of saints is misdirected mail. Under some circumstances I would be willing to join an Orthodox Church (like if I move to Russia), and if I had to choose between Orthodoxy and low-church/rock and roll type Protestant churches, I would easily choose Orthodoxy. However, for me, praying to, or asking the saints to pray for me, is not something I would be willing to do. I don't think the case for this practice is airtight. As for the RC Church, I do think they engage in idolatry, particularly with Mary. They straight up used saints and created saints days as a means of getting pagans to join their church.
Yes, of course you would chose the Orthodoxy. Same with me, I'd also chose it if I had to chose between the Orthdox and Evangelicals? Why? The high-church Protestants as you reffer to us are much more close to the Catholics or Orthodox than to the Evangelicals (or low-church Protestants as you reffer to them). Its beacouse the Evangelicals arent close to any of it, not even Protestantism, and shouldnt actually be called Protestant. Protestantism si prehaps set of doctrines that make you Protestant and the Evangelicals dont submit to them.
@@federativemapping1974 Right, and for non-denominationals it's even worse because they have no process of ordination or any oversight. By their own admission they aren't Protestants, because they are unaffiliated with everyone. One thing the newer churches do really well is bring in new people, because they engage in more street preaching than anyone else. But once you are in their church they don't offer much. Just a box with some rock. A huge part of their problem is that they have no tradition, and they have this idea that each generation should have their own music and their own way of doing things. Because of this they are unstable, and they end up with things like women led worship and guys with skinny jeans.
I think Theosis is an important factor in Saint Veneration, as they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and become gods by grace, so share in the divine energies, just not the essence. And so we should respect the Holy Spirit and Divine energy that indwells them otherwise that would be offensive to God himself.
Veneration or Obeisance are better terms to use than Relative Worship in my opinion.
As a Southern Baptist, I think this particular topic comes up the most when Protestants I personally interact with poke at the Roman and Orthodox Catholic Churches. I try to explain WHY the practice makes sense, is beautiful, and urge my peers to take pause when casting insults and judgments towards the two denominations that rightfully claim Apostolic Succession. I admit it’s very frustrating for me every time I hear it, and I can’t imagine how annoying it is for you all. God bless you all, and I look to the day our master will make us a unified church once more and forever.
Honestly, the only time it gets annoying is when we explain Dulia/Veneration and they stick their fingers in their ears and call us pagans anyway, lol. Its a little bit like walking my 110 pound Rottweiler down the street and the neighbor's Chihuahua runs up and yaps at him - my Rottweiler is sublimely unconcerned because he's more worried about the bear problem around here.
Having said that, when people like you speak up, all that frustration goes away in an instant and its replaced by genuine warmth and friendship. So yeah, I encourage constructive dialog between all of us because I think we're stronger together than divided, as long as our respective boundaries are respected (papal ecumenism is weakening the Catholic Church, and I pray for our Pope every day, but find myself looking to the next conclave with a mixture of anticipation and dread).
Anywho, God bless! 🙂
We don’t really care what fools think. The more I learn about Protestants the more I think we are not talking about the same God.
@@katydidd6321 I recently opened a catholic prayer book. 75% of the prayers were addressed to Mary. another 10% addressed to saints. Only 15% were addressed to the Father, Son, or Spirit. How is that at all reasonable? Why are there no records of this practice in the earliest fathers? How come I never read a prayer addressed to Mary in Origen or Tertullian or any of them? Much less finding an example in scripture where people ALWAYS pray to God the Father and Jesus Christ. What am I missing?
@@Lotterywinnerify Because prayers to God are memorized.
Also, as you pointed out, they are in Scripture whereas the others aren't.
@@katydidd6321 Those are not good reasons. You're telling me that people don't memorize prayers to Mary? Why on earth would God want me to do something like pray to Mary and then not give any clear indication in his word? Why not, simply give me one example, from the scripture rather than trying to justify a practice after the fact?
⚪
(From Dante's Divine Comedy)
The Nine Heavens, the Three Archangels and the Two Saints of Paradise:
I Temperance, II Prudence and III Peace Saint Raphael, IV Wisdom, V Fortitude and VI Justice Saint Gabriel, VII Faith Saint Michael, VIII Hope Saint Joseph, IX Charity Saint Mary.
Christ is risen, halleluyah
Saint Constantine please pray for us.
How is this different than “let’s all pray for Betty and her hip”?
Arian Saint Constantine...
@@katiek.8808
Dead vs alive
@@alexmason8557 oh I see. You don’t actually believe in eternal life. You don’t actually believe what Christ tells us about him binding death. You just pay lip service but when the rubber meets the road it back to dust from where we came.
Well a proper Christian believes in eternal life and whether you believe or not you won’t be dying anytime soon. You will go into repose (a sleep) if you are holy you will wait in paradise. The saints there are conducting liturgy and taking our prayers to Christ like we see in revelations. So there is no difference other than location.
@@katiek.8808 They can't hear your prayers bro.
Beautiful and very helpful explanation of this practice. I’m technically a Protestant but I’ve been looking into the apostolic Churches and these kinds of practices and this is very interesting. Thank you for sharing
2:10 We should no worship but we still ask them to pray for us and respect them
Exactly...
They got it wrong
Not a fan of the analogy quite frankly. We venerate and pray to the saints because they are in God having been spiritually interwoven in a specific and supra-rational way. Their special connection to God means we need a special connection to them insofar as they a have privileged capacity for intercession in addition to being exemplars.
The thing that is hard for me is not asking the saints to intercede so much, but singing hymns and praise that belongs to only to God to Mary. I am a Protestant, however I believe that there is only 1 church. Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant, we were all redeemed by the blood of Jesus and will come to know Him and commune with Him fully if we surrender to Him fully that we might be fully known. I live near a Coptic Orthodox church that I have attended. I study the writings of the Church Fathers and love church history. All that to say, while I love all my brothers and sisters, it is hard to discern the difference between what others do to worship false Gods and what Orthodox and Catholics do to venerate Mary. The songs of praise to her and multiple glorious titles she holds are very hard for me to reconcile with the reality that we are to worship of God alone.
I would suggest that this is a historical oddity, and you can attribute it largely to the radical formulations of Zwingli and Calvin. They and their successors held to a means of interpreting the scriptures that was not grounded in any historical precedent. This does not mean late medieval Latin dogma was correct, rather it's an assertion that the reformed approach to and understanding of scriptural injunctions was grounded in an early modern rationalist mindset, and necessarily disconnected from the way anyone in the early Church would have read and understood these same passages. This was a problem that had arisen in Western thought centuries before this, and I believe you can make a strong case that the reformed approach was a natural outgrowth of Western scholasticism.
All this is to say, I believe the difficulties for you arise because your understanding of things like worship and honor are grounded in a reformed mindset. There are conclusions that arise naturally from that philosophy that simply do not make sense to someone operating from a different mindset. the inverse is also true, there are conclusions that non reformed people come to and beliefs that arise naturally from the Orthodox philosophy that are difficult for you to understand. This is a prime example, because the veneration paid to saints arises fluidly from the Orthodox understanding of salvation and hope God's energies operate in and through his creation. For us you don't really even need to justify this practice, because it flows naturally from the scriptures when you understand them in the way that you do. But because we are operating from a completely different philosophy this discussion is nearly impossible to have if we are to rely strictly on the scriptures themselves. You will not understand why we conclude things from scripture that we do, and vice versa.
@@DLBBAM thank you for sharing, however, let me say this I am am by no means a fan of John Calvin (though I have read some of his work). I call my self protestant because that seems to be the only other option, however, I am not protesting anything!
I am a former Muslim and I was converted to Christ by several supernatural experiences, the first of which was 13 years ago when I heard Jesus' voice outside of the mosque and He told me to leave. I read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation and then when I started reading the second time through, my soul was pierced through as I read Isaiah 53 and I was confronted with the reality of Christ, that I must lose all for Him and follow Him. Since then my life has been a journey of radical transformation. I did not go to church for a long time, but actually after about a month of fasting, prayer and Bible reading, I started preaching the Gospel in the streets. After about 6 months, the Lord told me to go to church! I started attending various churches in order to connect with the Body of Christ, but would always ask questions of the Priests/Pastors because much of what the various church traditions do does not have basis in the Bible. (I read St. Basil call it "non-scriptural" not un-scruptural, mind you)
Simply put, I know who purchased me. I was lost in darkness and sin and Jesus purchased me and brought me into His glorious Kingdom. In the hours and days spent in worship and prayer, I have never once felt inclined to direct my songs, prayers, shouts of praise and thanksgiving to anyone other than the triune God.
There have been trimes when I have prayed for others (some who were non believers or worshippers of false gods) and God physically healed them or touched them in some way, and I always make clear that I am nothing but a servant, and not a particularly good one either. All glory, honor and praise belongs to Him.
I want to understand my brothers in the faith. I think there is too much unnecessary division in the Church of God. We forget that we are saved by grace through faith, not perfect theology, much less sophisticated philosophy. (And yes, I understand that God is extremely sophisitcated!)
Thank you for answering. May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you and all the family of God. I am going to re-read your response now.
[Upon re-reading, I am reminded of this, which you may find interesting: the reformers were direct descendants of the Church Fathers. They did were not totally separate from Church tradition, they simply believed that some errors had been introduced and the church needed to be reformed. St. Augustin had massive impact on both Calvin and Luther and it is plain to see, especially in Calvin. The influence of Prosper, a Western Father whom I do not belive is recognised within orthodoxy, on Luther and his theology is also very clear.]
@@brianlarue3540 I rejoice with you and give thanks to God for the gift of his grace to you.
I would add that nobody is teaching that we worship the saints, and even when there are hymns sung in honor to the saints you can tell clearly if you pay attention that the praise and honor is directed to God. What we honor in the Saint is not the man himself, but it is the work that God has worked in and through him.
It would not be so different from me telling your story which you just shared with me to another. The witness of your own life gives no honor and credit and glory to you, because you did not accomplish these things. It gives honor and glory to God because it is he who has done these things. It is right and proper for us to commemorate and to glorify the work that God does in the lives of his holy ones.
The saints are an inspiration and all example to us, and they show us by their example how God works in his creation.
It is true that through the long history of the Church people have gotten these things out of place and prayed to saints and Mary instead of Christ, and this is a grave error.
There are many other things that could be said, but it's best not to get distracted and carried away by too much speaking.
God bless you, and may he continue to lead you to all truth.
I will add to this one small thing
It is tempting for us to judge things on the basis of what we know and what we believe to be correct. However, the scripture frequently instructs us not to do this, as it invariably gives place to our own pride which is easily apprehended by demons.
Instead Christ implores us to judge teachers and spirits by their fruits.
The issue is the definition of prayer, if y’all just clarify we don’t shun saints or angels and they’re in Christ so it’s all good, I’m not a Protestant or part of the Orthodox Church but I understand this, though I personally don’t address them unless they’re there, I ask the Holy Spirit who is in them and me, to anoint me with their spirit to work for Gods will, if they want to pray with it and it’s Gods will it will happen
I like (and admire also) the fact that you guys are representatively defending the Orthodox (and with it the broader Catholic understanding) position on the communion -and more specifically the veneration or honoring- of the saints. But still, as a non-protestant inclined to catholic and orthodox theology, I’m not persuaded by this distinction. At least (I think) you are making progress in accepting the often dangerous parallelism there is between the more common (and to a certain extent traditional) distinction between “latria” and “dulia”. I believe in the intercession of the saints (from them to us on earth) because I think is implicitly taught in the Bible, but to pray and intercede for saints (whether in and of themselves or in a “relative” sense) is far from the less developed biblical view (and I would also add, as most honest students of historical theology do) that the testimony of the Fathers and the broader theological heritage from Tradition does not coincide with the view you’re defending. Thanks though for this awesome content you guys are providing to common people like me. A believe that we all should let Christ have the final word on all these theological issues that have developed through the history of our Faith… perhaps in the middle way we will find the individual truths that leads us all to the ultimate Truth.
My God! The vision of the world is so much more powerful, glorious, and blessed when we see the Saints as being fully alive (and even more alive than us) in their martyrdom! 🙏 Blessed are the Saints that truly are the light of the world as the Light of the world told us in the Gospels. 🙏
Thank you very much for this! You don't know just how needed this was for me diving into Orthodoxy, coming from a Reformed Orthodox denomination! God bless you!
Thank you for this talk.👍
I have my Bible, I have Christ, it is completely enough. Jesus is more than enough.
Enough for what, exactly?
Enough for my salvation @@DLBBAM
What is the sealed book or scrolls in Isaiah chapter 29 that both the learned and unlearned can't understand ,compare revelation of John chapter 5 same sealed scrolls,that no man in heaven (saints) or on the earth or under the earth are not worthy to open or even look into it. So what is this sealed book or scrolls.
Where can i find the image of the Orthodox priest in the thumbnail?
PRAY FOR ME SAINT JOSEPH ❤AND SAINT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL AND ALL THE SANITS PRAY FOR ME ❤
Anywhere I can read or hear more on the understanding that we are now in the “1000” year reign of Christ and that the first resurrection has already taken place and thus the Saints are now ruling and reigning with Christ? I’ve heard this eluded to a few times and haven’t quite wrapped my mind around it.
You can lookup postmillenialism (or amillenialism) to find people who defend this position or similar positions. But specifically Seraphim is heavily influenced by James Jordan, who has a lecture series on revelation where he explicates this view in detail.
What's the earliest recorded "prayer" to the saints?
The Bible is clear that there is only "one mediator," and it is not saints (I Timothy 2:5).
No one is claiming that the saints mediate for us
No one says saints are mediators of God and Man
Yes, God the Father.
Intercessory prayer -> Saint -> Christ -> The Father
Simple. A prayer to the Saints is a prayer to God.
@@dante-lj4owcorrect
Based on your comment, you have a lack of understanding and shouldn't miss represent what the Orthodox teaches least you bare false witness
They should've never let you two get together, too much power
I love that he mentioned relative worship (and defined it well). I don’t as often hear this angle in English as in Greek (listening to Gerondas)
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
Good thing the Saints are joined to Christ then.
When you take that verse out of context you split the Holy Trinity…
Beautiful explanation. A question: is praying to the saints necessary for Theosis?
I think it's greatly beneficial rather than necessary.
Why not just directly come before God then? There is only one mediator between God and Man, being Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:22:23 tells us of how he has brought us into his presence through the finished work on the cross, so that means we can directly connect with him without any other intercession apart from that of Jesus Christ.
If you've ever gone to another human being for encouragement or guidance or asked anyone else to pray for you, then you already know the answer.
You you flip that question on its head and ask "where is the sense in going it alone when you can have an entire army on your team with you?"
@@joshuadonahue5871 that is completely different than talking to spirits that are not in the material world any longer. David never talked about asking saints that are already in heaven for help. Instead he called on the Lord for assistance.
@@kyrman6038 sure this applies to the material world, but spiritually we don't need any other assistance apart from God's.
@@agfromheaven566 It's not completely different, it's actually analogous in precisely the ways which your original objection targets. If "there is one mediator" means that it's wrong to solicit the saints for their intercessions, then it would also be wrong to solicit other Christians for their intercessions. In both cases, you are appealing to humans to go before the throne on your behalf. Christ's mediatorial role is unique, but it cannot mean that he is the only intercessor. Otherwise, it would be absurd for Paul to as appeal to it as the reason that we intercede for all men--just look at the preceding verses
But you must implicitly recognize this because you abandoned your original argument in favor of a different one. Whether or not it is licit to commune with those who are alive in Christ and ask for their prayers is its own interesting question, but even if there are good reasons not to, your original objection simply cannot be one of them.
‼️I’m thinking of a saint. He is what’s called a “little saint” and his name begins and ends with an H. Maybe one of you can help remind me specifically… 🤔
If the Church tells you someone went to Heaven and God didn't send them to Heaven then you would have millions of people asking the dead for help.
Is it praying to the saints or asking the saints to pray for us and intercede?
I agree but your thumbnail has Luther was for icons bi, not saying he was a good person but
You didn't start bringing in the scriptures until around the seven minute mark and even the ones you used aren't conclusively in favor of veneration and prayers for the intercession of the saints... 🤷
Sola Scriptura isn't a doctrine in Eastern Orthodoxy
Not conclusive in your what? Interpretation? Opinion? Who are you to tell people the concrete meaning of scripture? An Apostle? Are you a descendant of one? EO have academic descendants of the Apostles so I'm gonna go ahead and trust their interpretation more than yours.
@@reddyforlenny9389 claims to direct succession from the Apostles is not unique to EO. Most confessional Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) can make valid claims to succession. Also, the fact that Constantinople was bulldozed by the Muslim horde and Rome was not gives more credibility to Rome's succession over EO (the Throne of St Peter or something like that). 👍
Anyways, my point was that he barely gave any scripture in his "Scriptural Defense" of veneration of the saints and the few passages he gave didn't even directly demonstrate anything like the EO practice. 🤷
@jonathanspeicher5298 It's not exclusive but it's an indicator that a church has the ability to refer to reliable sources, and protestants can't claim Apostolic succession because they are in direct opposition to apostolic teaching and tradition. And Constantinople fell when the Emperor was Uniate so that's a hilariously backfiring point.
And he does literally cite scripture you just disagree with the interpretation, which is typical because you have no real basis or tradition to guide your interpretation, you go off of what you alone understand/desire from the text omitting things like contextual history, analogue speech of their day, ancient Israeli culture being referenced, etc etc...
Scriptura is a self defeating point, nowhere in the bible is there a cannon for what should go in or out. You literally rely on a tradition set by man to trust in your cannon, a man that comes from a schismatic church who then split off even further away basing his decisions on discrediting the papists than actually respecting historical Christianity.
@@reddyforlenny9389 I didn't say he didn't cite scripture; I said the scripture he cites makes no apparent, forensic relationship to the the EO practice of veneration of the saints.
The concept of the Infallible Rule of Scripture as introduced by the Reformers does not imply Scripture as sole authority, but rather the only rubric for judging what qualifies as orthodox Christian teaching.
Clearly you have never read the Scriptures so ultimately it is a moot point.
The New Testament makes it crystal clear Jesus is our only mediator before God. (1 Tim 2:5, Acts 4:12)
The only references to image veneration in the first few hundred years in the church are quotes condemning the practices of pagans or Gnostic heretics.
Praying to icons of the saints is a practice introduced in the Dark Ages that was championed by John of Damascus and forced on the church by Empress Irene, a woman who blinded her own son and is rumored to have murdered her own husband.
Relative worship is going to turn a lot of Protestants away and confuse some orthodox even. Bad choice of words. You guys should correct this please. Many Fathers of the church used ways to explain things that although may have been correct they were asked not to for the sake of not confusing people. Think this is one of those moments.
This sounds like a defence of what Luther fought for, not invoking saints. (More like Tobit than like calling on Anthony of the Padua, thesaint of lost things).
Another thing Luther has never said... He venerated the saints and prayed to them
As well as every Lutheran or lots Protestants do. When you talk about Protestants discouraging the prayers or intercessions of the saints the problem is you probably talk about the Evangelicals and reffer to them as Protestants (since they really arent)
This makes So much since thank you.
And God bless ☦️
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 how do you reconcile that?
Sola scriptura; tradition is all fine and good but it must be corrected what do you think half the new testament is but correcting churches that were failing. The entire bible is how the people of God keep failing. Yet with dogma to traditional rather then self reflection and introspection is a failure on the part of orthodoxy and roman Catholicism. Was not Timothy sent to rebuke and lead his elders?
Intercession is asking a saint to pray for you, which is all the Orhtodox do. It’s different than trying to directly communicate with the Saints. The saints don’t talk to us as God does and we aren’t practicing magic to call them from the dead so that they might fulfill a command of us, we are simply asking those glorified by God to pray on our behalf. Very fundamentally different things. It is still sinful to go to a medium and ask them to conjure the dead up to have a two way conversation and seek some kind of power or insight from them. Very different than asking say Saint Peter to pray for you and not expecting any response in return. Only God do we have two way conversations with
Well one problem here: we DO NOT worship the Saints! We venerate them! Saint John Chrysostom said "if you want to venerate a Saint, be that Saint" which means to be inspired from that Saint. Also we ask for their prayers and intercessions. Saints have boldness before God. The Saints are in communion with God and they are more alive than us for we are full of sin. In the bible, numerous times Saints like Moses were asked to intercede in behalf of israel because God was angry at their works (Exodus 32:11-14). We know that the Old Testament is a shadow of the New Testament. There are many more examples but i cannot remember the verses. In the New Testament, in the book of revelation John sees 24 elders seated on Thrones. Who are the 24 elders? According to our Holy Church Fathers the 24 elders are All the Saints. How? Well first of all we need to see what does the number 24 mean. 24 is a symbolic nymber which means the 12 tribes of israel and the 12 Apostles. The 24 elders are all the Saints, one part of them lived under the old testament and the other part lived in the new testament. These 24 elders are seen to hold a censer with much incense in it. And the bible adds "which are the prayers of the saints" (revelation 5:8). The saints here mean the faithful. You see? The Saints offer our prayers in front of God!!! This is called mediation! And it does not contradict (1 Timothy 2:5). Again in revelation, the Saints are now seen to pray for us (revelation 8:2-3) go read for yourselves.
12:40 but it would be better for me to go to my wife for something than to ask her friend to talk to her for me
Yes exactly, this is why I always tell people no when they ask for prayer. They can go to God themselves--what in the world did they need me for?
I found myself agreeing with everything said in this video, but still do not understand the benefit of praying *to* the saints. I fully acknowledge recognizing them and honoring them. But why commune with anyone other than Jesus if we have that ability?
What we are asking of the saints is the same thing your preacher does when he says “ok everyone Jim had a heart scare this week let’s all pray for is health”. We say in a respectful manner please Saint Adrian the Martyr for you died for Christ please pray for my soul and intercede for my salvation” Christ says he will take council and you don’t think that council can help you?
Why commune with your Christian brothers and sisters when you can just commune with Jesus?
@@joshuadonahue5871 I think it’s a weakness in their faith. They don’t believe anyone is actually still alive or in repose.
@@katiek.8808 The main difference is that the saints are no longer on this Earth, so why ask them to pray for us when they are not alive on this Earth anymore? If your grandmother was a very righteous person and dies, will you ask her to pray for you in heaven? The Saints are alive in heaven but they are not God who can come down on Earth and listen to our prayers. They are not omnipresent like God.
Jesus is the only mediator, there is no need to pray to saints of the past to help your prayer reach heaven.
@@ShrekOwO I don’t ask how it works and I’m not going to say what God can do to us and can’t do. What I do know is that StJohn the Theologian sees the saints taking our prayers to The Lord in Revelations. You might not like it and it might not make sense to you but that’s just how it is. And I think it’s important to stay humble and not sound smug and self grandiose like you. “Look I get that he gave the men incorruptible bodies and they had healing powers and other gifts of the Holy Spirit while alive but I’ll be talking the the King of the universe on a one on basis proving my faith. There is so much scripture that points to intercession it’s not even fun to argue this anymore. It’s just you being rebellious.
This kind of content is very much needed today, God bless ❤☦
I think of less of praying to saints, but more of asking the saints to pray for/with you. Amplifying your prayer by having the spirit of someone who dedicated their lives to christ to pray for your flawed sinful self
Dead men can not save you, only Jesus, praying to saints who aren't alive can't save you, praying to anyone, but God is a sign idolatry, and idolatry itself. Only the Trinity Deserve Praise And worship.
He shouldn’t say worship. Zero saints or church fathers used the word worship and used a distinction between worship and veneration. Love Serephim Hamilton but worst take he’s had yet.
*_"Regard not them that have familiar spirits,_*_ neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God._
*_And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits,_*_ and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, _*_I will even set my face against that soul,_*_ and will cut him off from among his people."_
*_"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;_*
*_And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him,_*_ and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."_
_"Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel... And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?... Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."_
@Romans-hu3uy What is a familiar spirit?
@@joshuadonahue5871 Trying to contact the spirits of people that passed away.
You are worshiping the Saints because you're praying to them, praying is a form of worship and worshiping Saints, is and forever will be idolatry, and God said in the Bible no idolator will inherit the kingdom of God if you don't believe me, then read the Bible and pray to Jesus for the answers.
No he shouldn’t have used that word and praying only means to ask. We don’t pray to saints in the same sense. We don’t tell them our struggles and ask for things from them and while praying we don’t offer worship, we simply ask them to pray on our behalf as we would our friends. No saints or fathers of the church ever put it the way he put this video. Bad take from him.
Well, you're still committing a serious sin my friend trying to communicate with the Saints who are already dead, that is considered necromancy which means trying to communicate with the Dead, and the Bible clearly says any person who commits necromancy will not inherit the kingdom of God and besides going back to praying to the Saints, the definition of prayer is a form of worship and it also says that in the Bible but it probably wouldn't say that in the Catholic Bible because the Catholic Bible I believe is corrupted no offense the Holy Spirit Led me to know these things to help people like you to know God's truth if you don't believe me my friend then study the Dead Sea Scrolls and the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and there you will know the truth and the truth will set you free
But first! I would start with the New Testament first before reading the Old Testament, and I probably wouldn't read The Book of Enoch. I don't think that's Canon
I am currently Protestant (my views are most in line with Lutheranism) but I feel like God is calling me into Orthodoxy. I'm not entirely sure yet and I don't know if I feel confident enough that Orthodoxy is correct and Catholicism isn't. After all, if I neglect Catholicism, I probably won't make it to heaven (if they are correct after all) as their doctrine of "no salvation outside the church" is pretty strict, even in Vatican II. God bless you and your channel.
I am a Child of the Most High God and a follower of the way of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah! Yeshua, the Son of God, taught His disciples how to pray to the FATHER. Yeshua prayed to the FATHER. Yeshua is our High Priest and our only intercession to the FATHER. We are of His royal priesthood. Therefore, pray to the FATHER, in the name of the Son, and through the power of the Holy Spirit. Obey the commands of God or refuse at you own peril. I’ll obey my Messiah over the traditions of flawed men as only Yeshua was sinless and pure. All were born into sin but for Him who was born of the Holy Spirit! Repent for the Kingdom of God has come! I say this all with love for you all and so don’t want anyone to go to hell because of deception. Wow unto me if I do not preach the gospel of Yeshua! All will stand before God and give an account so read and obey scripture and not men. Be blessed in Yeshua’s Mighty Name!
Nah. Jesus is the Christ, pray to Him only.
{You shall have no other gods before Me. | Exodus 20:3}
You clearly didn t watch or understood anything. You just threw a text and left the channel. You were not paying attention on the subject. Veneration or paying honors is not the same as Worship. We pray to the Saints as to interceede for us as they are closer to God and his friends and representatives. Worship is exclusive to God (The Holy Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit) and honor to his friends the Saints who have been consecrated in the holiness of God.
Please do not insult them! ☦️
This meme is insulting
well, i am a saint according to the gospel, so if you want to, you can pray to me
As long as they ask you to pray for them, yes. That's what they actually do
Well I dont know if you're a saint, but you could pray for me if you want. I could pray for you too. Or is that too heretical for you?
@stevemcdonald4400 And why not? I pray you, brother, that you remember me before the Lord in your prayers
Ah yes look you are right because you made Martin Luther the soyjack and the Catholic the gigachad
🫡🇻🇦
The Bible says nothing about praying to Saints, or Mary as intercession.
We only pray to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.
Quit deceiving people.
All those who died because of God and Christ are referred to as 'Saints' but Jesus tells us to Worship The Lord thy God and serve Him only. Matthew 4:10
@@bonniemagpie9960 yes worship...and serve Him only. Does English grammar elude you? Meaning there are two things, and one is the specific the other the general. Your grammatical interpretation is what gives liberals to say we shouldn't have guns from the 2a. Stop talking demon, you are rebuked in His Holy Name.
1 Timothy 2:1, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men."
you're calling scripture false, Ephesians 6:17-20,19-20, James 5:13-20-Psalm 66:10, Revelation 8:3-5, 1 Peter 3:7, Hebrews 12:22-24.
plus does anybody think that a saint is a god when asking for intercession?
The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God. No three gods, but one True God✝️✝️✝️
I’m sorry but you are simply just mistaken. Prayer to the saints, according to RCC scholars doesn’t come into any church practice outside of gnostic heretics until 680-730ish (this is before orthodox split). If it was so biblical they would have done this from the patriotic fathers and apostles but there is no evidence of that. Sadly you are twisting scripture to fit your current view. You are blinded by your bias.
Are you an atheist? I hope you realize Protestantism is unsustainable and most of it is literal Neo Gnosticism.
Do you mean to say that RCC scholars do not find evidence of this practice before those years? Because that is very different from saying that they know it did not exist before that point.
It’s still idolatry!
You must be one of those who say the church was in gross error until the reformation? Because this was normative Christianity, and still is normative Christianity. and I don't think it's fair to hold you accountable personally, because you've been brought up in the western world under a religion that identifies in part with Christianity, I understand the lack of knowledge
@@Donnielucas77 "I have a different opinion so you must be wrong". Timeless classic
@@user98344 which is is exactly what you started off with
@@Donnielucas77 How exactly I started of with it?
@@user98344 Im so sorry! Wrong comment for the wrong person haha 🤣
second
Attempting to wake dead saints(familiar spirits)is Forbidden in scripture...
Deuteronomy 18:11 KJV - Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
They aren’t dead bro, they’re in heaven 😂
We aren’t necromancers or wizards that’s for sure. We just have the charm of being closer to God than prots
David Crane:, yes that's what they're doing. When The Witch of Endor brought Samuel up from the dead, many gods arose out of The Earth.
@@RickysPlums sleeping. Dead Saints sleep in Christ...just as saint Samuel slept..and had to be awakened-->1 Sam 28:15¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
@@ttterg6152 closer? As your pope blesses sinful relations in the church against the teachings of apostle Paul to REBUKE sinful relationships(is that closer?)--->1 cor 5:
Immorality Rebuked
1¶It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12¶For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.