@@davidmarquina464 1. Epistemological continuity 2. The early Church Fathers and the early Christian beliefs 3. The great apostasy never happened historically and was never prophesied biblically (the complete opposite was prophesied). Which actually leads back to reason 1 4. Epistemological inconsistency of the Mormon world view 5. Radical change in doctrine overtime (Adam God doctrine (it was 100% a doctrine and Brigham Young said it affects the salvation of the members of the church), blacks and the priesthood, the Godhead (if you read the red journal of discourse books of the church prophets it’s pretty obvious they couldn’t figure out what they believed on the godhead. They kept changing God essentially), Temple ceremony AND rite changes (Joseph Smith said it wouldn’t change. It also disproves the restoration. The on going restoration cop out makes absolutely no sense), etc) 5. The idea we all worship the same deity differently. The idea that the Mormon prophets give us the full picture isn’t epistemologically consistent in real life. One example is the ecumenical councils are led by God. The first ecumenical council gave us the Creed of the Christian faith. The Mormon God says all the creeds are an abomination. They can’t be worshipping the same God. 6. Mormonism often (very often) leads to atheism because of the roots of their epistemology (their own personal feelings) and their empiricist/material worldview
I’m an Australian. Jay’s content helped direct me to the Eastern Orthodox Church, I was originally non-denominational attending a low Anglican service. It’s not a quick and easy journey, but my wife and I are getting baptised soon. Glory to God in the highest! ☦️
@@danrod3790 because I can’t guarantee my baptism was valid since it was performed by the heterodox, and now I have the privilege and opportunity to do so. Also, I respect the guidance of my priest, and because I want to participate fully in the mysteries of the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.
This was great😊 I grew up Protestant. I’ve been learning about Orthodox for nearly a year and going to my first catechumen class tonight. I’m so excited!
@@fodolocraigo8426then great! Go to a local Orthodox Church and ask the Priest about formally receiving the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Catechesis. God is calling you home!
Honestly, I've never heard the prayers "to" the saints expressed in this way. Asking for Christians "around" us to pray for us seems natural, but asking "unseen" Christians to also pray for us suddenly seems pretty amazing to me. Ty for the interview. You've given me much to consider.
Jesus said God is of the living.. not the dead. Moses & Elijah were alive & talking to Jesus even tho their earthly bodies died ❣️ Saints are people that lived virtuous lives, served others or were martyred for their faith 🤍 Ps: According to the ancient, apostolic churches, people baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are also considered saints here on earth. Prayer isn't just a way to glorify & praise God, to overcome temptations, challenges... It's ALSO a way to ASK for our needs & desires to be met and those of our loved ones 🙏🏻 We pray to Jesus, saints AND Mother Mary 🌹 Have a good day.. God bless ✝️☦️
This was one of my favorite jay dyer interviews. This channel must be new, only 1k subs? Very good interviewer. Perfect amount of hearing out the guest and offering their perspective. Well done, looking forward to more.
Orthodoxy was a impossible move for me, there Articulation of the Trinity, Works Salvation, Apostolic Secession, the intercession of the Saints, Iconography, Veneration of Mary and the Lords Supper are Unbiblical
@@hudsontd7778 Sola scriptura is false. In other words, it doesn't have to be in the Bible explicitly for it to be true to the Christian faith. And there is no works based salvation in orthodoxy. Go watch the stream Jay Dyer put up today on this very topic.
@@basilmakedon I came from protestantism. My dad is still a pastor so talking about presuppositions to me isn't helpful for your case. And yes, orthodoxy is on the rise in the United States/West. That's just a statistical fact
William Shakespeare: “I PRAY thee, cease thy counsel, Which falls into mine ears as profitless As water in a sieve: give not me counsel;" Pray means to ask.
I spoke with Jay and he said he would be happy to do something again! I love apologetics so it took everything in my power not to ask him about this topic lol. Looking forward to doing that with him! I have a couple other interviews booked but when they’re released I’ll make time for another one with Jay!
I was just about to comment on how you are working on two different definitions of Cessationism, and then Jay called it out. The Orthodox DO believe in spiritual gifts, miracles, etc, abundantly. The Cessationism of Protestantism is the ceasing of all spiritual gifts and is widely seen as an "overcorrection" to the perceived miracle cults within Roman Catholicism at the time of the Reformation. The idea of ceasing Pubic Divine Revelation is generally agreed on by all, except perhaps some groups of Pentecostals (and most would still submit it to Scripture, but the fringes dont).
@@NavelOrangeGazer if that were true, then cessationism would not predate Pentecostalism and the Great awakenings, but it does. It's Reformation era, particularly in Calvin's Institutes.
Why is there such a disconnect, that the church is a family. Its not just me and Jesus. Its an entire family who needs help, support, fellowship to "run the race".
The disconnect is Protestants divorce the canon of scripture from the historical Church, among other reasons. Jesus set up One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church outlined by the Nicene Creed. Jay touched a bit on this in the beginning, but the fathers of the reformation believed in an invisible church. This is false, the Church has always been and will always be one united body, the Bride of Christ. You can find this church in history, it’s now called the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Great conversation. I saw your debate on IG and I think there was some confusion or misunderstanding about some of the EO positions, so it was great to see how you’re still willing to explore further with Jay (EO catechumen here)
"Aubrey sir, pray pass the salt." Admiral lord Nelson to midshipman John Aubrey If i were protestant i would say it is CLEARLY a sin for an admiral to pray to a midshipman
We’ve had some very civil content between Orthodox and Protestants recently, this video. Fr Peter Heers and Ruslan as well. I think Protestants need to take an honest look at Orthodoxy in order to understand more. I think many believe that it’s an Eastern version of Catholicism without the pope or something. I like to see stuff like this rather than the constant bickering and barking.
A lot of Evangelicals are coming in earnestly and learning a lot. Even if they don't convert, they understand more. The big problem is with Calvinists, whose arrogance is repulsing their own flock into heading for a real Church.
I can't hate on Calvinist too hard. They just take inconsist protestant theology and follow it to its silly limits. But at least they are trying to be consistent with the mess they inherited from the reformers.
Funny you say that when even Yabara could not uphold the infallibility of Vatican 1 in his recent debate with Ubi. Yet alone in his debate with Jay. I will posit this, if the Vatican had Papal supremacy, then there was no reason for the Vatican to forge multiple documents to verify it.
@magnithorsson2154 Because as the saints are Holy, meaning their lives are pleasing to God and thus they are closer to Him, He listens and accepts their prayers more receptively than our prayers, so we can ask for their intercession to give to God for us. It is also a false dichotomy to say you either pray to the saints or to God. We do both.
@@magnithorsson2154 Because He wants people to pray for other people. He wants you to pray for government, for your enemies. That is crucial for our own salvation. We require other people in our process of salvation. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
“Prayer” in the original English simple means talking or communicating. Nothing to do with worship or treating as God. “Pray ye, please hand me the salt.”
Paul interpreting doctrine through a lens of Jesus makes sense because he had an direct access to Jesus, which is something we Christians can trust is not Satanic because the Apostles approved of Paul, 2 Peter 3:15-16 and Galatians 2:9. And when we read the Pauline Epistles, we are intepreting doctrine through the lens of Paul, who had the lens of Jesus. This idea that we can ourselves interpret through the lens of Jesus ALONE, is impossible unless we were one of the Apostles living at the time of Jesus who walked with him.
Great comment! 😂 What all his naysayers willingly ignore is that Jay regularly displays great patience and kindness to those who sincerely seek and asks honest questions. He has no tolerance, however, for anyone who has proven themselves to be dishonest and insincere. And that is the perfectly right disposition to have. As the Apostle Paul instructed Titus, "After a first and second admonition, have nothing more to do with anyone who causes divisions, knowing that such a person is perverted, sinful and self-condemned" (Titus 3:10-11).
There are examples of prayers to the Saints in the New Testament. If you accept the idea that praying is largely just making a petition to someone, which I believe can be scripturally justified, then what Peter said in Acts 9:40 would count as a prayer to a saint who had passed. A rather short one, but still a prayer: “But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.” Additionally, since Jesus and the Apostles all affirmed the Old Testament, they would have had no problem with the prayers to angels contained in the psalms: “Bless the Lord, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the Lord, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the Lord, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the Lord, O my soul.” -Psalm 102 Septuagint numbering /103 Masoretic numbering.
These are enormous stretches. Is the psalmist also praying to the sea creatures, mountains and fruit trees in Psalm 148? I think clearly the answer is no - this does not have the character of intercessory prayer. And Peter is not praying to Tabitha for her intercession. Every single instance of prayer in Scripture is directly to God, so it’s reasonable to assume he is likewise praying to God to raise Tabitha, and then commanded her to rise. The relationship is inverted - Peter’s prayer is shown to be very effectual (he is an Apostle, after all) and so God works this miracle through him. This has nothing at all to do with intercessory prayer directed to the Saints in heaven. As far as I can tell, there are zero direct examples of, nor instruction to pray to the Saints anywhere in Scripture. The Apostles did not pray to Moses or Elijah, St Paul did not pray to the Apostles that preceded him in martyrdom, nowhere do we see the early church in Acts praying to St Stephen the Protomartyr. You also do not see this practice in Clement, Polycarp, the Didache, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Origin … the list goes on. We can try and connect the dots and make inferences to justify the practice from semi-related passages of Scripture, but it pretty clearly is an accretion that really started to take hold in the 4th century.
@OMNIBUBB Revelation 8:3 - Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Here an angel acts in a priestly role interceding for the saints. 2 Macc. 15:12-16 - the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth. Baruch 3:1-4 - "O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of those of Israel who have died and of the children of those who sinned before you, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us." Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
@@OMNIBUBB They are not really stretches at all. Just because they take the forms of commands does not mean they are not prayers. There are for instance prayers that take the imperative form directed towards God. “Give us this day our daily bread for instance.” Bringing up fruit trees, etc. really does nothing to address the issue at hand. Really this is just grasping at straws. The work to prove David prayed to angels is already done. Yes, David is doing this. Of course, this is a poetic prayer. Having no mind or will fruit trees do not have the ability to perform any request. But angels are sentient beings that can hear and act upon the requests to bless the Lord, offer intercessions, etc. It is entirely erroneous to suggest that every single instance of prayer in Scripture is directed to God. There are countless instances of prayers direct to others beside the most Holy Trinity. Prayer is essentially the action of making a request of a petition. They are, basically, synonymous. And I don’t believe I have to provide any examples of people making requests of someone else other than God, however I will: “Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I PRAY THEE, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left. -Genesis 13:9 KJV” You say that the prayer of Peter to Tabitha has nothing to do with prayer asking intercession from saints, but I think it does. If I can provide an instance where the apostle thought it licit to make a petition of a saint who had passed then it seems arbitrary to me that we should deny the act of making the petitions for intercession as licit. You made the blanket statement that the Apostles did not pray to Moses or Elijah. But this is going far beyond any revelation or historical witness you have access to. Abscess of evidence is not evidence of absence. Personally, I haven’t seen any heavily swaying evidence either way on the prevalence of prayers to saints in the first few centuries. Evolutionary theories on where prayers to the saints came from seem to me more speculation and connecting dots than anything else. What’s more important and interesting to me is that fact that, just looking at the scriptures, they did occur and logically seem to be perfectly legitimate. I imagine you might have some problems with idea that prayer is essentially synonymous with the making of petitions, but if you take stock of all the parables Jesus gave on prayer, and the content of the Lord’s Prayer itself, it seems he definitly had this mindset, e.g. Luke 11, 18. As I said the content of the Lord’s Prayer also demonstrates what I am saying as well. Notice how most of it do consists of requests/petitions: “Give us this day our daily bread.” “Forgive us our debts” etc.
@OMNIBUBB Revelation 8:3 - Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Here an angel acts in a priestly role interceding for the saints. 2 Macc. 15:12-16 - the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Well how a orthodox living saint would react of course if he wanted , when you meet him, before you open your mouth he will call you by your baptismal name and he will know all your troubles some you probably won’t recall them and this is not for a show or anything like that but just to help you and after he will send you to a priest to confess your sins and probably that priest will also know you name as well. This is one way possible.
There are still (some) gifts of the Spirit, just not a new public Revelation until the period of the Eschaton. There are miracles, there are saintly priests and monks in very recent history that showed clairvoyance, healing, etc.
I don't have anywhere near as much knowledge as either of you, but I wondered about something. The idea of malevolent entities. I just think that the reason Jesus said “Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name,” was to protect us, as evil despises the name Jesus. So to me, it is like a firewall, or a safety line in, as when we focus in prayer, we are essentially focusing our mind out of our bodies into the infinite, and perhaps could put ourselves at risk, in the same way as when people do ouija boards etc. I wonder if this can be related to those who claim that dmt can put you in touch with entities.
I’m a bit confused, it would make sense to only ask the saints in heaven to pray for us since their prayers are guaranteed to be “more effective.” Also, how do their prayers work. For example, since so many ask Mary to intercede for them, is she hearing them all and interceding for them all? Or is it like “what she gets around to praying for.” I don’t understand those things
Scripture says there is one mediator: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus…” Also, we’re not to “consult with the dead.” That said, there is the “great cloud of witnesses” cheering us on in our race, and Rev 6 shows saints praying to God for people still being harmed in earth (“how long o Lord…”) There seems to be no prohibition to their praying for us, but if there’s one mediator, I’m not going there. I notice people are always (me included) trying to wriggle out of obedience. To the point where I can’t find a church that prohibits women preaching, or there’s disobedience around spiritual gifts. Why can’t we just do what it says?
I mean- they appear to be praying for us in heaven, but if we’re not to inquire of the dead (like Saul petitioning Samuel) I don’t think we should be calling on them to pray for us. It’s a one way thing
One mediator refers to the hypostatic union as of Christ's divine and human natures, see the 3rd and 4th ecumenical councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Christ is the God Man. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with the intercession of the saints. Saints aren't dead as Christ is the God of the living and not the dead to say the saints are dead is to call Christ a liar.
They’re not dead otherwise you’ll have to explain how Moses was seen speaking with Jesus during His transfiguration. Also Christ is our only mediator but does that stop you for asking others for prayer? I don’t think so.
That's up to Gavin, its likely he will never debate cause "Jay mean" or whatever other excuse. Gavin has far too much to lose to someone who knows more than him.
Because the prayer of a righteous(saint) is more effective than one of a sinner. I mean, would you ask an angel or saint to pray for you instead of a sinner?
Is it not the intent of the Heart of the sinner, which only God can read hearts, Did not God become incarnate to redeemed all, how is the prayer of a Saint any greater than a completely sincere sinner. Saints are mankind with flaws, no issue too me in praying for Saints or even asking them in ones prayer for guidance, but is not prayer Worship, men are creatures not to be worshiped.
Is god to busy to answer my prayers? Or he only listens to the saints and his mother? And not me? The high statues given to the saints? To listen to the prayers of the world?
Wow lots of assertions by Jay Dyer right off the bat within the first few minutes. He just assumes Revelation 1:10 is talking about a Sunday service yet we don't see any sort of reverence towards the first day in the entire Bible. We don't even see any scripture that says Jesus rose the first day. And he seems to assume that you can pray to Saints and that these Saints in heaven can understand various people praying in all kinds of different languages praying to the Saints all at once. But I find it hard when I have just two different people trying to tell me something at the same time in the same language yet Jay Dyer thinks that the Saints in heaven cannot only understand thousands of people talking to them at once but also in different languages all at once. This seems almost like a god like power and that he is making the Saints into some sort of deities
@@chrislucastheprotestantview All valid points, except it does not take into account that Orthodox view of the saints participating in the divine nature. The limitations that you have on Earth would not exist once you are brought into the presence and participating in the uncreated energies, ruling and reigning with him in his divine council, as the New testament describes. So you are correct in saying that they are exercising something similar to Divine abilities, but it's not their own, they are participating in the divine that has been given to them. The fact that the first Christians began to gather and celebrate on the first day of the week is a historical given and is repeatedly mentioned in the NT, and is also evident from New Testament contemporary documents like the Didache. The New Testament refers to the first day of the week and in several passages, it is mentioned in the context of early Christian gatherings and events. 1. Matthew 28:1 - Describes the resurrection of Jesus occurring "after the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week." 2. Mark 16:2 - Notes that Mary Magdalene and others came to the tomb "very early on the first day of the week." 3. Luke 24:1 - Similar to the other Gospels, it recounts that the women visited the tomb "on the first day of the week." 4. John 20:1 - Mentions that Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene "on the first day of the week" following His resurrection. 5. Acts 20:7 - Refers to the early Christians gathering on the first day of the week to break bread and listen to Paul speak. 6. 1 Corinthians 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to set aside a collection on the first day of every weeek.
@@dumbidolsall great points, and to add, the Divine Liturgy is not just a "Sunday service" as the original commenter asserts. There are monasteries that celebrate the Divine Liturgy daily! But traditionally Wednesday is the day Christ was betrayed, Friday is the day of crucifixion and Sunday is the day of resurrection aka the Lord's Day.
@@dumbidols Great points, also to add, the OP point about Orthodox giving the Saints in heaven a deity type of status because of them being able to hear the requests of multiple people speaking various languages at the same time, is a false conclusion on his part. One does not have to be a deity for such an act to be possible, this is evidenced by the following passages: Revelation 5:11-13 "11And I beheld, and I HEARD the voice of MANY angels round about the throne and the BEASTS and the ELDERS: and the number of them was TEN THOUSAND times TEN THOUSAND, and THOUNSANDS of THOUSANDS; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in HEAVEN, and ON the EARTH, and UNDER the earth, and such as are IN THE SEA, and ALL that are in them, HEARD I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Here we see John, who is just a man, tell us he hears EVERY creature (and to emphasise he means every he includes the following), which is in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, under the EARTH, in the SEA, and ALL that are in them, what this shows is that though John is hearing all the languages from all the nations and heavens simultaneously he is still comprehending what they are saying. Of course we wouldn't then attribute it to John being some sort of deity but we understand it is made possible by God, for John need not be omniscient but only needs a omniscient God. Another example: Revelation 7:9-10 "9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and kindreds, and people, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." Once again he's even clearer that he is simultaneously hearing multiple nations with their unique tongues (languages) rightfully praising God. What John does is set the precedent of one of the ways we will participate with God and His uncreated energies, John shows us the/sets the principle of how God can work with us and in us in a way that allows us to do things that us creatures wouldn't necessarily be able to accomplish by our own capabilities.
@dumbidols those first 4 examples, none say that Jesus rose on the first day. All 4 basically say that Jesus was not there, and it was still dark when he had risen. But none say whether it was before sabbath ended or whether it was after the first day started. Keep in mind, a day is from evening to evening. And in acts 20:7 this is just the typical get together jews do called a havdalah meal. Upon the first day of the week, again this is evening. Jews get together weekly and observe the separation of the Sabbath, holy, from the common. This is the havdalah. And it makes more sense that Paul was simply preaching for about four or five hours until midnight, then thinking they only had one meal a whole day or that this was some kind of communion and they didn't even eat the whole day except for some cracker and how to listen to Paul preach for 15 hours. This is why there was many lights in the upper room because this was evening after the Sabbath had ended. And then we see Paul traveling the next day which is the first day of the week so he had absolutely no reverence for that day as being some kind of holy or special day. And when you look earlier you can see that he had just observed the Feast of unleavened bread which is Passover. So he's still doing all these Jewish things and even back in Acts 18 he's having everyone observed Sabbath, and we know this is about 20 years after the crucifixion because emperor Claudius banned the Jews in 49 AD. If there was a Sunday service going on then Paul would have simply told them to come to that service instead. It makes no sense for Paul to have them attend a Sabbath service at the synagogue, then later tell them that these are horrible things that are weak and miserable and done away with and now you need to go to my Sunday church. Paul was not judaizing them, if so he would be the biggest hypocrite for not having them go to the Sunday service in the first place
@@dumbidols and I'll throw this back at you that the Sadducees ran the temple and they would always gather the first fruits as soon as Sabbath ended that means the crops already had to be out of the ground when they gathered them Matthew 12:40 that Jesus says that he will be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights, and you cannot get 3 days and three nights out of a Friday crucifixion. But with a Wednesday crucifixion we can get 3 days and 3 nights out of it if Jesus rises right before the end of the Sabbath
No. But Chrisyians who have passed on are not dead accorsing to scripture, they are alive with Christ. We can pray for thr living, and they can pray for us. Revelation shows this, with the saints under the altar praying for those on earth, and angels delivering the prayers of the saints via incense to God.
The ones in hell can’t pray for us, but we can pray for them to be freed from torment, 2 maccabees at the end of chapter 12 show the Jews praying for the forgiveness of sins of the dead. The saints alive can intercede for us, cause they are before the throne
Do you remember Jesus quoting the OT scripture about “I am the God of the living, and not the dead” ….?? It was in reference to a person who had passed on…..meaning that the person was alive! We are alive in eternity…..from both scripture and Jesus Christ. ☦️
Wow, this gets more and more annoying 😅 There are so few textual variants, and none, in my understanding, that are of consequence, or that affect meaning. As far as canon goes, the bulk of the Bible contains the Hebrew Scriptures. I don’t think the selection for canonical NT texts was that hard. I mean, would anyone include the Gospel of Mary? Besides the fact that all of those books are available today for anyone to see. And no one would argue to include any of it. Except flat earthers want Enoch 💪🏼 Once the door to tradition is opened, all hell breaks loose.
Jay Dyer at around the 4 minute mark, brings up hebrews 11 as proof. I read it all just now, again, more empty assertions. I see no verses to back up what he is claiming. This is equivalent to cults claiming jesus likes vanilla ice cream because their prophet said it, and since there are no verses saying Jesus does no like vanilla ice cream, they claim their prophet must be right. This is pathetic that people believe this guy based off this nonsense.
He is talking about Hebrews 11:10,16. St Augustine supports this interpretation in his work "City of God". P.S. Jay Dyer has forgotten more about the Bible than most people will ever know. Christ would be pleased if you left the judging up to Him.
@jesh879 yes, and my original comment stands. Just because he cites a bunch of stuff and makes a claim that it backs up his claim that it is OK to make deities out of Mary and other saints, does not make it so. He is basically making Christianity into some new age religion, pantheism, where once we die, our souls basically get absorbed back into God and we become God again. Or something to that effect. I was into new age, and it sounds like that to me. We see nothing in the bible that leads one to have these new age concepts. If you pay attention, this is what he is teaching. Think about it: the saints can hear everything, be everywhere at once, know everything, know the future, know what you are thinking. They are basically God in his view. And he is just playing around with words to not make it sound so new agey.
@@jesh879 One more thing, don't have assumptions just because you see the word "protestant" in my name. I think it is very hard to find a church that is truly protestant, and I do not think there are hardly any real protestants. Most people seem to be under the influence of Rome. Because I could care less about Augustine. Martin Luther ruined the reformation with his anti-semetism. I am more interested in people like Andreas Karlstadt and Polycarp.
@@chrislucastheprotestantviewJay isn't "making Christianity into" anything. Like it or not, this was always what Christianity was. What you think of as Christianity is just what some random european rationalist dudes altered the religion to be.
the way Jesus resolved doctrinal disputations was through sola scriptura, he uses scripture as a anchor point, e.g "have you not read X" or "it is written X therefore Y" It's how he overcame satan and temptation. So I'd be carful making claims like that
Imagine basing your whole idea of salvation on a historically gnostic/ platonic term of homoousios, thinking that defines your faith while simultaneously ignoring the true tenets and rule of faith outlined by Christ and the apostles themselves: keep the commandments. It's madness, truly the epitome of vain philosophy.
@@RAJ-zo8cu the word is only used in platonic philosophy. No fallacy at all. Just your denial. Meanwhile, you ignore the actual claim of what the true rule of faith is in Scripture. As you were then....
your eschatology will determine your view on the spiritual gifts. people who think Christ's Parusia is in the future tend to believe that the spiritual gifts are still in effect. i think its obvious that the gifts are no longer functioning because Christ's Parusia has already occurred. Eschatology of coarse relating to the end times. futurists wrongly interpret the Parusia coming at the end of time at the end of the world. preterists see it at the end times of Jacob's people (national Israel). Yeshua said that not a dot would be removed from the Law until all things had been fulfilled. since we are not under the Law, then all things have been fulfilled. therefore, the parusia happened at the end of the old covenant age at the judgement of old covenant Israel and the wedding of Christ to the church. since we are in covenant with Christ, the wedding has already occured. if the wedding hasnt occured, then we are not in the new covenant. if the old covenant judgement hasnt happened, then YHWH is a polygamist (wed to both the church and national Israel). Yeshua is our one and only mediator with YHWH. when a friend prays for me, HIS mediator is Christ. when i pray to YHWH, my mediator is Christ. when you pray to Mary, you are conversing with spirits which the bible clearly teaches against. repent from this false teaching.
You're not conversing with spirits. This is a mischaracterization of the EO position. They don't respond back to you, next are you Hebrew Roots or part of some Israelite movement?
@@shobudski6776 communicating with spirits is unbiblical. any spirit is "alive" so making the leap that speaking to dead Christians because their spirits live doesnt create a loophole. it just ignores the text.
@@shobudski6776 believers are all saints, made perfect in Christ. unfortunately the bible doesnt say "its OK to talk to good spirits". it says dont communicate with them. its not complicated.
@@shobudski6776 last point, "pray" doesnt mean "ask". When Jesus shows the desciples how to pray, he says "“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Then he demonstrated how to "pray" IDENTIFY: "Our Father in heaven." PRAISE: "hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." ASK: "Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ So Jesus says to pray to the Father (who already knows your needs) and after addressing the Father, Offers praise/worship. Then He asks for his basic needs, asks for forgiveness, followed by asking for self improvement and avoidance of temptation. nowhere does He instruct His disciples to address any spirit other than the Father. To pray to physically dead believers in Christ is nowhere to be found. When we ask our physically alive friends for prayer, those believers should also pray in the way Christ demonstrated, from themselves, to the Father. If I pray to the Father and Jesus is my mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), WHO is more worthy to ask than Jesus? Mary? you would prefer Mary over Jesus? this alone is a form of idolatry because it places Mary above Jesus and gives HER the role of mediator above Christ.
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I just left Mormonism for orthodoxy. Very chill conversation, would love to see more of this
What made you leave Mormonism for orthodoxy?
@@davidmarquina464 1. Epistemological continuity
2. The early Church Fathers and the early Christian beliefs
3. The great apostasy never happened historically and was never prophesied biblically (the complete opposite was prophesied). Which actually leads back to reason 1
4. Epistemological inconsistency of the Mormon world view
5. Radical change in doctrine overtime (Adam God doctrine (it was 100% a doctrine and Brigham Young said it affects the salvation of the members of the church), blacks and the priesthood, the Godhead (if you read the red journal of discourse books of the church prophets it’s pretty obvious they couldn’t figure out what they believed on the godhead. They kept changing God essentially), Temple ceremony AND rite changes (Joseph Smith said it wouldn’t change. It also disproves the restoration. The on going restoration cop out makes absolutely no sense), etc)
5. The idea we all worship the same deity differently. The idea that the Mormon prophets give us the full picture isn’t epistemologically consistent in real life. One example is the ecumenical councils are led by God. The first ecumenical council gave us the Creed of the Christian faith. The Mormon God says all the creeds are an abomination. They can’t be worshipping the same God.
6. Mormonism often (very often) leads to atheism because of the roots of their epistemology (their own personal feelings) and their empiricist/material worldview
Welcome my brother ☦️
@@andys3035 Thank you brother 🙏☦️
@@daniallemmon5453 yeah I don’t see it
Jay was a big help in my journey from evangelicalism to Orthodoxy.
Me too. Glory to God!
@@andys3035 me too
enjoy your cosmic symbolism and phenomenology seraphim rose
@@Greg-n enjoy your materialistic nihilism.
@@EpistemicAnthony hylomorphic dualism man.
I’m an Australian. Jay’s content helped direct me to the Eastern Orthodox Church, I was originally non-denominational attending a low Anglican service. It’s not a quick and easy journey, but my wife and I are getting baptised soon. Glory to God in the highest! ☦️
Why get baptized again. It's one father, son and Holy Spirit. You're just changing philosophies not Gods
@@danrod3790 because I can’t guarantee my baptism was valid since it was performed by the heterodox, and now I have the privilege and opportunity to do so. Also, I respect the guidance of my priest, and because I want to participate fully in the mysteries of the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.
@@mrscream2028 Did you believe Jesus Christ was Lord and God as the Father?
@@danrod3790are you claiming to know better than his actual priest?
@michaelfetter5413 Now you can't ask questions?
Great video, I was raised Protestant but I converted to orthodoxy earlier this year. I really enjoyed this conversation
So many cases like this. Jay has been the eye-opener for the truth about the church
Seen this guys videos on ig. He is very sincere. Glad he is willing to have a discussion with our boy!!! ☦️☦️☦️
The algorithm needs more conversations like this
This was great😊 I grew up Protestant. I’ve been learning about Orthodox for nearly a year and going to my first catechumen class tonight. I’m so excited!
Great video. Because of this conversation left protestant for eastern ortho. Thanks
You need to go through catechism, you cant become orthodox in a minute 😂
@@TheDinaricOrtho I decided in my heart
@@fodolocraigo8426(: lets go! find a local church
@@fodolocraigo8426then great! Go to a local Orthodox Church and ask the Priest about formally receiving the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Catechesis. God is calling you home!
@@fodolocraigo8426go to church attend the services.
Orthodoxy is a hidden gem. Just as you’d expect it to be.
Let's hope it ceases to be hidden.
As a convert from Protestantism, I fully agree. Sadly in Western Europe it’s the minority Christian faith.
The treasure hidden in a field and a pearl of great price. 💎 ⚪ ☦
Honestly, I've never heard the prayers "to" the saints expressed in this way. Asking for Christians "around" us to pray for us seems natural, but asking "unseen" Christians to also pray for us suddenly seems pretty amazing to me. Ty for the interview. You've given me much to consider.
Deut 18:11 says we’re not to inquire of the dead
@@user-ql3yp7mj6nthey’re not dead
Jesus said God is of the living.. not the dead.
Moses & Elijah were alive & talking to Jesus even tho their earthly bodies
died ❣️
Saints are people that lived virtuous lives, served others or were martyred for their faith 🤍
Ps: According to the ancient, apostolic churches, people baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are also considered saints here on earth.
Prayer isn't just a way to glorify & praise God, to overcome temptations, challenges...
It's ALSO a way to ASK for our needs & desires to be met and those of our loved ones 🙏🏻
We pray to Jesus, saints AND Mother Mary 🌹
Have a good day..
God bless ✝️☦️
This was one of my favorite jay dyer interviews. This channel must be new, only 1k subs? Very good interviewer. Perfect amount of hearing out the guest and offering their perspective. Well done, looking forward to more.
Wow, thank you for the feedback!
Agree! I thought you conducted this fantastically.
Orthodoxy on the rise ☦️☦️☦️
Orthodoxy was a impossible move for me, there Articulation of the Trinity, Works Salvation, Apostolic Secession, the intercession of the Saints, Iconography, Veneration of Mary and the Lords Supper are Unbiblical
1. No they aren’t
2. Even if they were, we don’t share your sola Scriptura presuppositions
@@hudsontd7778 Sola scriptura is false. In other words, it doesn't have to be in the Bible explicitly for it to be true to the Christian faith. And there is no works based salvation in orthodoxy. Go watch the stream Jay Dyer put up today on this very topic.
@@basilmakedon I came from protestantism. My dad is still a pastor so talking about presuppositions to me isn't helpful for your case. And yes, orthodoxy is on the rise in the United States/West. That's just a statistical fact
@@basilmakedon bro you got to tag people in your messages so we know who you are addressing. It looks like you're talking to me in this reply
This is a great conversation. Very sincere on both ends.
William Shakespeare:
“I PRAY thee, cease thy counsel,
Which falls into mine ears as profitless
As water in a sieve: give not me counsel;"
Pray means to ask.
Please have Jay Dyer come back! I really liked this and found it very edifying :D
I spoke with Jay and he said he would be happy to do something again! I love apologetics so it took everything in my power not to ask him about this topic lol. Looking forward to doing that with him! I have a couple other interviews booked but when they’re released I’ll make time for another one with Jay!
I didn't want to believe Jay, but his halo left me no choice.
Great conversation
Bro tried to sneak in that ecumenism at the end😂 Protestants just don’t get jt
😝🤭
Catholic here. Great convo. Well done boys.
Great conversation, more of this, please. God bless ❤🙏
Slavă Ție Dumnezeul nostru pentru toate aceste! Care sunt minuni ale Tale și ne fericesc! Lord Jesus Christ Glory to You! ☦️❤️❤️❤️ Holy Trinity.
I was just about to comment on how you are working on two different definitions of Cessationism, and then Jay called it out. The Orthodox DO believe in spiritual gifts, miracles, etc, abundantly. The Cessationism of Protestantism is the ceasing of all spiritual gifts and is widely seen as an "overcorrection" to the perceived miracle cults within Roman Catholicism at the time of the Reformation. The idea of ceasing Pubic Divine Revelation is generally agreed on by all, except perhaps some groups of Pentecostals (and most would still submit it to Scripture, but the fringes dont).
It's more an overcorrection to the Pentecostal charismatic movements and a lot of the prelest mad stuff that came out of the great awakenings.
@@NavelOrangeGazer if that were true, then cessationism would not predate Pentecostalism and the Great awakenings, but it does. It's Reformation era, particularly in Calvin's Institutes.
Why is there such a disconnect, that the church is a family. Its not just me and Jesus. Its an entire family who needs help, support, fellowship to "run the race".
The disconnect is Protestants divorce the canon of scripture from the historical Church, among other reasons. Jesus set up One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church outlined by the Nicene Creed. Jay touched a bit on this in the beginning, but the fathers of the reformation believed in an invisible church. This is false, the Church has always been and will always be one united body, the Bride of Christ. You can find this church in history, it’s now called the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Good comment
@@jacobfavret1729you guys sympathize with catholism, no way any Christian would near that.
@@Don-Royall bro you got no idea what you’re talking about. Engage with my actual argument and not the strawman in your head
@@jacobfavret1729 like all religions lead to god???
Glory to God
Great conversation. I saw your debate on IG and I think there was some confusion or misunderstanding about some of the EO positions, so it was great to see how you’re still willing to explore further with Jay (EO catechumen here)
"Aubrey sir, pray pass the salt."
Admiral lord Nelson to midshipman John Aubrey
If i were protestant i would say it is CLEARLY a sin for an admiral to pray to a midshipman
We’ve had some very civil content between Orthodox and Protestants recently, this video. Fr Peter Heers and Ruslan as well. I think Protestants need to take an honest look at Orthodoxy in order to understand more. I think many believe that it’s an Eastern version of Catholicism without the pope or something. I like to see stuff like this rather than the constant bickering and barking.
A lot of Evangelicals are coming in earnestly and learning a lot. Even if they don't convert, they understand more. The big problem is with Calvinists, whose arrogance is repulsing their own flock into heading for a real Church.
@@RudyCarreraCalvinism is just the worst.. even when I used to be a Protestant I could never accept that kind of cold hearted theology.
I can't hate on Calvinist too hard. They just take inconsist protestant theology and follow it to its silly limits. But at least they are trying to be consistent with the mess they inherited from the reformers.
Jay helped me realize that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church! Thanks Jay
Even Roman Catholicism doesn’t say that it’s the “one true church” lol
Pope says otherwise lol
Funny you say that when even Yabara could not uphold the infallibility of Vatican 1 in his recent debate with Ubi. Yet alone in his debate with Jay. I will posit this, if the Vatican had Papal supremacy, then there was no reason for the Vatican to forge multiple documents to verify it.
If rich man was able to ask Lazarus for Abraham to intercede from Sheol, why can’t we ask those saved in Christ to intercede before us?
Why would you when you have Christ
@magnithorsson2154 Because as the saints are Holy, meaning their lives are pleasing to God and thus they are closer to Him, He listens and accepts their prayers more receptively than our prayers, so we can ask for their intercession to give to God for us. It is also a false dichotomy to say you either pray to the saints or to God. We do both.
@@magnithorsson2154 Because He wants people to pray for other people. He wants you to pray for government, for your enemies. That is crucial for our own salvation. We require other people in our process of salvation.
14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
@@RAJ-zo8cu If that's the case why not simply pray to Jesus as a mediator and leave the others out of it?
@@magnithorsson2154because the bible says the prayer of a righteous person is powerful
Very cool talk. God bless
Love this! Learned a lot.
“Prayer” in the original English simple means talking or communicating. Nothing to do with worship or treating as God. “Pray ye, please hand me the salt.”
Paul interpreting doctrine through a lens of Jesus makes sense because he had an direct access to Jesus, which is something we Christians can trust is not Satanic because the Apostles approved of Paul, 2 Peter 3:15-16 and Galatians 2:9.
And when we read the Pauline Epistles, we are intepreting doctrine through the lens of Paul, who had the lens of Jesus.
This idea that we can ourselves interpret through the lens of Jesus ALONE, is impossible unless we were one of the Apostles living at the time of Jesus who walked with him.
Jay Dyer was… Nice? What kind of crazy world am I living in!?
He is very nice outside of debates, he just has an agressive debate style
@thenewguy3534 lol. Dude is attacked regularly by everyone. He is way less aggressive than I would be.
He might be mean sometimes but I ain't never seen him insult people's mother's. 😐
Great comment! 😂
What all his naysayers willingly ignore is that Jay regularly displays great patience and kindness to those who sincerely seek and asks honest questions. He has no tolerance, however, for anyone who has proven themselves to be dishonest and insincere. And that is the perfectly right disposition to have.
As the Apostle Paul instructed Titus, "After a first and second admonition, have nothing more to do with anyone who causes divisions, knowing that such a person is perverted, sinful and self-condemned" (Titus 3:10-11).
There are examples of prayers to the Saints in the New Testament. If you accept the idea that praying is largely just making a petition to someone, which I believe can be scripturally justified, then what Peter said in Acts 9:40 would count as a prayer to a saint who had passed. A rather short one, but still a prayer:
“But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.”
Additionally, since Jesus and the Apostles all affirmed the Old Testament, they would have had no problem with the prayers to angels contained in the psalms:
“Bless the Lord, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the Lord, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the Lord, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the Lord, O my soul.”
-Psalm 102 Septuagint numbering /103 Masoretic numbering.
Love that reference to Psalm 102. A call to the angels to bless God.
These are enormous stretches. Is the psalmist also praying to the sea creatures, mountains and fruit trees in Psalm 148? I think clearly the answer is no - this does not have the character of intercessory prayer. And Peter is not praying to Tabitha for her intercession. Every single instance of prayer in Scripture is directly to God, so it’s reasonable to assume he is likewise praying to God to raise Tabitha, and then commanded her to rise. The relationship is inverted - Peter’s prayer is shown to be very effectual (he is an Apostle, after all) and so God works this miracle through him. This has nothing at all to do with intercessory prayer directed to the Saints in heaven.
As far as I can tell, there are zero direct examples of, nor instruction to pray to the Saints anywhere in Scripture. The Apostles did not pray to Moses or Elijah, St Paul did not pray to the Apostles that preceded him in martyrdom, nowhere do we see the early church in Acts praying to St Stephen the Protomartyr.
You also do not see this practice in Clement, Polycarp, the Didache, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Origin … the list goes on. We can try and connect the dots and make inferences to justify the practice from semi-related passages of Scripture, but it pretty clearly is an accretion that really started to take hold in the 4th century.
@OMNIBUBB Revelation 8:3 - Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Here an angel acts in a priestly role interceding for the saints.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 - the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Baruch 3:1-4 - "O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of those of Israel who have died and of the children of those who sinned before you, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us." Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
@@OMNIBUBB They are not really stretches at all. Just because they take the forms of commands does not mean they are not prayers. There are for instance prayers that take the imperative form directed towards God. “Give us this day our daily bread for instance.” Bringing up fruit trees, etc. really does nothing to address the issue at hand. Really this is just grasping at straws. The work to prove David prayed to angels is already done. Yes, David is doing this. Of course, this is a poetic prayer. Having no mind or will fruit trees do not have the ability to perform any request. But angels are sentient beings that can hear and act upon the requests to bless the Lord, offer intercessions, etc. It is entirely erroneous to suggest that every single instance of prayer in Scripture is directed to God. There are countless instances of prayers direct to others beside the most Holy Trinity. Prayer is essentially the action of making a request of a petition. They are, basically, synonymous. And I don’t believe I have to provide any examples of people making requests of someone else other than God, however I will:
“Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I PRAY THEE, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left. -Genesis 13:9 KJV”
You say that the prayer of Peter to Tabitha has nothing to do with prayer asking intercession from saints, but I think it does. If I can provide an instance where the apostle thought it licit to make a petition of a saint who had passed then it seems arbitrary to me that we should deny the act of making the petitions for intercession as licit. You made the blanket statement that the Apostles did not pray to Moses or Elijah. But this is going far beyond any revelation or historical witness you have access to. Abscess of evidence is not evidence of absence. Personally, I haven’t seen any heavily swaying evidence either way on the prevalence of prayers to saints in the first few centuries. Evolutionary theories on where prayers to the saints came from seem to me more speculation and connecting dots than anything else. What’s more important and interesting to me is that fact that, just looking at the scriptures, they did occur and logically seem to be perfectly legitimate. I imagine you might have some problems with idea that prayer is essentially synonymous with the making of petitions, but if you take stock of all the parables Jesus gave on prayer, and the content of the Lord’s Prayer itself, it seems he definitly had this mindset, e.g. Luke 11, 18. As I said the content of the Lord’s Prayer also demonstrates what I am saying as well. Notice how most of it do consists of requests/petitions: “Give us this day our daily bread.” “Forgive us our debts” etc.
@OMNIBUBB Revelation 8:3 - Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Here an angel acts in a priestly role interceding for the saints.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 - the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Well how a orthodox living saint would react of course if he wanted , when you meet him, before you open your mouth he will call you by your baptismal name and he will know all your troubles some you probably won’t recall them and this is not for a show or anything like that but just to help you and after he will send you to a priest to confess your sins and probably that priest will also know you name as well.
This is one way possible.
The opposite of Jay Dyer is Jay Liver
🙏✝️🤴😄
Actually I would say that you are praying to your mate Sebastian if you ask him to pray for you.
There are still (some) gifts of the Spirit, just not a new public Revelation until the period of the Eschaton.
There are miracles, there are saintly priests and monks in very recent history that showed clairvoyance, healing, etc.
I don't have anywhere near as much knowledge as either of you, but I wondered about something. The idea of malevolent entities. I just think that the reason Jesus said “Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name,” was to protect us, as evil despises the name Jesus. So to me, it is like a firewall, or a safety line in, as when we focus in prayer, we are essentially focusing our mind out of our bodies into the infinite, and perhaps could put ourselves at risk, in the same way as when people do ouija boards etc. I wonder if this can be related to those who claim that dmt can put you in touch with entities.
The stronger your relationship becomes with God, the more attention you will attract from the fallen angels.
Your sound cuts out at 16 min only you cut out
Thanks for that!
@postpost-moderntheology any time brother I know you only want your best content
I’m a bit confused, it would make sense to only ask the saints in heaven to pray for us since their prayers are guaranteed to be “more effective.” Also, how do their prayers work. For example, since so many ask Mary to intercede for them, is she hearing them all and interceding for them all? Or is it like “what she gets around to praying for.” I don’t understand those things
Scripture says there is one mediator: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus…” Also, we’re not to “consult with the dead.”
That said, there is the “great cloud of witnesses” cheering us on in our race, and Rev 6 shows saints praying to God for people still being harmed in earth (“how long o Lord…”)
There seems to be no prohibition to their praying for us, but if there’s one mediator, I’m not going there.
I notice people are always (me included) trying to wriggle out of obedience. To the point where I can’t find a church that prohibits women preaching, or there’s disobedience around spiritual gifts.
Why can’t we just do what it says?
I mean- they appear to be praying for us in heaven, but if we’re not to inquire of the dead (like Saul petitioning Samuel) I don’t think we should be calling on them to pray for us. It’s a one way thing
One mediator refers to the hypostatic union as of Christ's divine and human natures, see the 3rd and 4th ecumenical councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Christ is the God Man. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with the intercession of the saints. Saints aren't dead as Christ is the God of the living and not the dead to say the saints are dead is to call Christ a liar.
They’re not dead otherwise you’ll have to explain how Moses was seen speaking with Jesus during His transfiguration. Also Christ is our only mediator but does that stop you for asking others for prayer? I don’t think so.
"Why can't we just do what it says "!!!!
Said every denomination ever
definately watch the episode with james snapp about the woman caught in adultry if this is a hangup point for you
When is Jay Dyer gonna debate Gavin Ortlund?
That's up to Gavin, its likely he will never debate cause "Jay mean" or whatever other excuse. Gavin has far too much to lose to someone who knows more than him.
Lost sound there for a second. Was it me or the video?
Video
The Question was why not just prey too God , The Father ,Son ,Holy Ghost. ....Bless the Saints but why not just prey too God. It is not logical.
Because the prayer of a righteous(saint) is more effective than one of a sinner. I mean, would you ask an angel or saint to pray for you instead of a sinner?
Is it not the intent of the Heart of the sinner, which only God can read hearts, Did not God become incarnate to redeemed all, how is the prayer of a Saint any greater than a completely sincere sinner. Saints are mankind with flaws, no issue too me in praying for Saints or even asking them in ones prayer for guidance, but is not prayer Worship, men are creatures not to be worshiped.
algo push
Is god to busy to answer my prayers? Or he only listens to the saints and his mother? And not me? The high statues given to the saints? To listen to the prayers of the world?
Go out and preach the gospel, not go out and build and empire, make disciples of men, wait for the empire that's coming.
Wow lots of assertions by Jay Dyer right off the bat within the first few minutes. He just assumes Revelation 1:10 is talking about a Sunday service yet we don't see any sort of reverence towards the first day in the entire Bible. We don't even see any scripture that says Jesus rose the first day. And he seems to assume that you can pray to Saints and that these Saints in heaven can understand various people praying in all kinds of different languages praying to the Saints all at once. But I find it hard when I have just two different people trying to tell me something at the same time in the same language yet Jay Dyer thinks that the Saints in heaven cannot only understand thousands of people talking to them at once but also in different languages all at once. This seems almost like a god like power and that he is making the Saints into some sort of deities
@@chrislucastheprotestantview All valid points, except it does not take into account that Orthodox view of the saints participating in the divine nature. The limitations that you have on Earth would not exist once you are brought into the presence and participating in the uncreated energies, ruling and reigning with him in his divine council, as the New testament describes. So you are correct in saying that they are exercising something similar to Divine abilities, but it's not their own, they are participating in the divine that has been given to them. The fact that the first Christians began to gather and celebrate on the first day of the week is a historical given and is repeatedly mentioned in the NT, and is also evident from New Testament contemporary documents like the Didache. The New Testament refers to the first day of the week and in several passages, it is mentioned in the context of early Christian gatherings and events.
1. Matthew 28:1 - Describes the resurrection of Jesus occurring "after the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week."
2. Mark 16:2 - Notes that Mary Magdalene and others came to the tomb "very early on the first day of the week."
3. Luke 24:1 - Similar to the other Gospels, it recounts that the women visited the tomb "on the first day of the week."
4. John 20:1 - Mentions that Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene "on the first day of the week" following His resurrection.
5. Acts 20:7 - Refers to the early Christians gathering on the first day of the week to break bread and listen to Paul speak.
6. 1 Corinthians 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to set aside a collection on the first day of every weeek.
@@dumbidolsall great points, and to add, the Divine Liturgy is not just a "Sunday service" as the original commenter asserts. There are monasteries that celebrate the Divine Liturgy daily!
But traditionally Wednesday is the day Christ was betrayed, Friday is the day of crucifixion and Sunday is the day of resurrection aka the Lord's Day.
@@dumbidols Great points, also to add, the OP point about Orthodox giving the Saints in heaven a deity type of status because of them being able to hear the requests of multiple people speaking various languages at the same time, is a false conclusion on his part. One does not have to be a deity for such an act to be possible, this is evidenced by the following passages:
Revelation 5:11-13
"11And I beheld, and I HEARD the voice of MANY angels round about the throne and the BEASTS and the ELDERS: and the number of them was TEN THOUSAND times TEN THOUSAND, and THOUNSANDS of THOUSANDS;
12 Saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and
wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in HEAVEN, and ON the EARTH, and UNDER the earth, and such as are IN THE SEA, and ALL that are in them, HEARD I saying,
Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
Here we see John, who is just a man, tell us he hears EVERY creature (and to emphasise he means every he includes the following), which is in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, under the EARTH, in the SEA, and ALL that are in them, what this shows is that though John is hearing all the languages from all the nations and heavens simultaneously he is still comprehending what they are saying. Of course we wouldn't then attribute it to John being some sort of deity but we understand it is made possible by God, for John need not be omniscient but only needs a omniscient God. Another example:
Revelation 7:9-10
"9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and kindreds, and people, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."
Once again he's even clearer that he is simultaneously hearing multiple nations with their unique tongues (languages) rightfully praising God. What John does is set the precedent of one of the ways we will participate with God and His uncreated energies, John shows us the/sets the principle of how God can work with us and in us in a way that allows us to do things that us creatures wouldn't necessarily be able to accomplish by our own capabilities.
@dumbidols those first 4 examples, none say that Jesus rose on the first day. All 4 basically say that Jesus was not there, and it was still dark when he had risen. But none say whether it was before sabbath ended or whether it was after the first day started.
Keep in mind, a day is from evening to evening.
And in acts 20:7 this is just the typical get together jews do called a havdalah meal. Upon the first day of the week, again this is evening.
Jews get together weekly and observe the separation of the Sabbath, holy, from the common. This is the havdalah.
And it makes more sense that Paul was simply preaching for about four or five hours until midnight, then thinking they only had one meal a whole day or that this was some kind of communion and they didn't even eat the whole day except for some cracker and how to listen to Paul preach for 15 hours.
This is why there was many lights in the upper room because this was evening after the Sabbath had ended.
And then we see Paul traveling the next day which is the first day of the week so he had absolutely no reverence for that day as being some kind of holy or special day. And when you look earlier you can see that he had just observed the Feast of unleavened bread which is Passover. So he's still doing all these Jewish things and even back in Acts 18 he's having everyone observed Sabbath, and we know this is about 20 years after the crucifixion because emperor Claudius banned the Jews in 49 AD.
If there was a Sunday service going on then Paul would have simply told them to come to that service instead. It makes no sense for Paul to have them attend a Sabbath service at the synagogue, then later tell them that these are horrible things that are weak and miserable and done away with and now you need to go to my Sunday church. Paul was not judaizing them, if so he would be the biggest hypocrite for not having them go to the Sunday service in the first place
@@dumbidols and I'll throw this back at you that the Sadducees ran the temple and they would always gather the first fruits as soon as Sabbath ended that means the crops already had to be out of the ground when they gathered them Matthew 12:40 that Jesus says that he will be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights, and you cannot get 3 days and three nights out of a Friday crucifixion. But with a Wednesday crucifixion we can get 3 days and 3 nights out of it if Jesus rises right before the end of the Sabbath
Can dead people pray for us? Can we pray for dead people?
No.
But Chrisyians who have passed on are not dead accorsing to scripture, they are alive with Christ. We can pray for thr living, and they can pray for us. Revelation shows this, with the saints under the altar praying for those on earth, and angels delivering the prayers of the saints via incense to God.
The ones in hell can’t pray for us, but we can pray for them to be freed from torment, 2 maccabees at the end of chapter 12 show the Jews praying for the forgiveness of sins of the dead.
The saints alive can intercede for us, cause they are before the throne
Do you remember Jesus quoting the OT scripture about “I am the God of the living, and not the dead” ….?? It was in reference to a person who had passed on…..meaning that the person was alive! We are alive in eternity…..from both scripture and Jesus Christ. ☦️
@@talktalk147
They are not dead fool what is that you don’t understand Bible, don’t read bible like your metropolitan train schedule.
@@Beta-XYZ oh yeah, heavy header. They are dead. Do they have physical body?
Post your shorts on the gram are halarious
Wow, this gets more and more annoying 😅
There are so few textual variants, and none, in my understanding, that are of consequence, or that affect meaning.
As far as canon goes, the bulk of the Bible contains the Hebrew Scriptures. I don’t think the selection for canonical NT texts was that hard. I mean, would anyone include the Gospel of Mary? Besides the fact that all of those books are available today for anyone to see. And no one would argue to include any of it. Except flat earthers want Enoch 💪🏼
Once the door to tradition is opened, all hell breaks loose.
Jay Dyer at around the 4 minute mark, brings up hebrews 11 as proof. I read it all just now, again, more empty assertions. I see no verses to back up what he is claiming.
This is equivalent to cults claiming jesus likes vanilla ice cream because their prophet said it, and since there are no verses saying Jesus does no like vanilla ice cream, they claim their prophet must be right.
This is pathetic that people believe this guy based off this nonsense.
Baby you're so sweet and so pretty no one is as special as you are ❤
He is talking about Hebrews 11:10,16. St Augustine supports this interpretation in his work "City of God".
P.S. Jay Dyer has forgotten more about the Bible than most people will ever know. Christ would be pleased if you left the judging up to Him.
@jesh879 yes, and my original comment stands.
Just because he cites a bunch of stuff and makes a claim that it backs up his claim that it is OK to make deities out of Mary and other saints, does not make it so.
He is basically making Christianity into some new age religion, pantheism, where once we die, our souls basically get absorbed back into God and we become God again. Or something to that effect. I was into new age, and it sounds like that to me.
We see nothing in the bible that leads one to have these new age concepts.
If you pay attention, this is what he is teaching. Think about it: the saints can hear everything, be everywhere at once, know everything, know the future, know what you are thinking. They are basically God in his view. And he is just playing around with words to not make it sound so new agey.
@@jesh879 One more thing, don't have assumptions just because you see the word "protestant" in my name. I think it is very hard to find a church that is truly protestant, and I do not think there are hardly any real protestants. Most people seem to be under the influence of Rome. Because I could care less about Augustine. Martin Luther ruined the reformation with his anti-semetism. I am more interested in people like Andreas Karlstadt and Polycarp.
@@chrislucastheprotestantviewJay isn't "making Christianity into" anything. Like it or not, this was always what Christianity was. What you think of as Christianity is just what some random european rationalist dudes altered the religion to be.
the way Jesus resolved doctrinal disputations was through sola scriptura, he uses scripture as a anchor point, e.g "have you not read X" or "it is written X therefore Y" It's how he overcame satan and temptation. So I'd be carful making claims like that
Using Scripture doesn't mean believing in or teaching or using Sola Scriptura lol
Imagine basing your whole idea of salvation on a historically gnostic/ platonic term of homoousios, thinking that defines your faith while simultaneously ignoring the true tenets and rule of faith outlined by Christ and the apostles themselves: keep the commandments. It's madness, truly the epitome of vain philosophy.
Genetic fallacy; word concept fallacy
@@RAJ-zo8cusuperb.
@@RAJ-zo8cu the word is only used in platonic philosophy. No fallacy at all. Just your denial. Meanwhile, you ignore the actual claim of what the true rule of faith is in Scripture. As you were then....
@@KingdomInContext what do you think homoousios means?
@@KingdomInContext tell me are the terms Uncreated Godman Trinity in the Bible ?
your eschatology will determine your view on the spiritual gifts. people who think Christ's Parusia is in the future tend to believe that the spiritual gifts are still in effect. i think its obvious that the gifts are no longer functioning because Christ's Parusia has already occurred. Eschatology of coarse relating to the end times. futurists wrongly interpret the Parusia coming at the end of time at the end of the world. preterists see it at the end times of Jacob's people (national Israel).
Yeshua said that not a dot would be removed from the Law until all things had been fulfilled. since we are not under the Law, then all things have been fulfilled. therefore, the parusia happened at the end of the old covenant age at the judgement of old covenant Israel and the wedding of Christ to the church. since we are in covenant with Christ, the wedding has already occured. if the wedding hasnt occured, then we are not in the new covenant. if the old covenant judgement hasnt happened, then YHWH is a polygamist (wed to both the church and national Israel).
Yeshua is our one and only mediator with YHWH. when a friend prays for me, HIS mediator is Christ. when i pray to YHWH, my mediator is Christ. when you pray to Mary, you are conversing with spirits which the bible clearly teaches against. repent from this false teaching.
You're not conversing with spirits. This is a mischaracterization of the EO position.
They don't respond back to you, next are you Hebrew Roots or part of some Israelite movement?
Pray = ask. The Theotokos isn’t a demonic sprit she is divine a saint. ☦️
@@shobudski6776 communicating with spirits is unbiblical. any spirit is "alive" so making the leap that speaking to dead Christians because their spirits live doesnt create a loophole. it just ignores the text.
@@shobudski6776 believers are all saints, made perfect in Christ. unfortunately the bible doesnt say "its OK to talk to good spirits". it says dont communicate with them. its not complicated.
@@shobudski6776 last point, "pray" doesnt mean "ask". When Jesus shows the desciples how to pray, he says
"“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
Then he demonstrated how to "pray"
IDENTIFY:
"Our Father in heaven."
PRAISE:
"hallowed be your name, your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
ASK:
"Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’
So Jesus says to pray to the Father (who already knows your needs) and after addressing the Father, Offers praise/worship. Then He asks for his basic needs, asks for forgiveness, followed by asking for self improvement and avoidance of temptation.
nowhere does He instruct His disciples to address any spirit other than the Father. To pray to physically dead believers in Christ is nowhere to be found. When we ask our physically alive friends for prayer, those believers should also pray in the way Christ demonstrated, from themselves, to the Father.
If I pray to the Father and Jesus is my mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), WHO is more worthy to ask than Jesus? Mary? you would prefer Mary over Jesus? this alone is a form of idolatry because it places Mary above Jesus and gives HER the role of mediator above Christ.