Considering the tech of the Hirogen being a notable threat to friggin' Voyager, and that's not even getting into the fact they seem to have downright overpowered power armour, my money's on the Hirogen.
This could be based on the Starfleet Universe when after the Cestus III incident, the two sides realized it was a misunderstanding and developed diplomatic relations that resulted in an alliance based on their mutual antagonism with the Romulans. This was all before they turned them to xenomorphs for Strange New Worlds. Personally, I hate this take on the Gorn. The point of the Gorn was to present a very alien life form to humans, but still show they deserve respect and the right to live. Yet, now they are the monsters Kirk believed them to be. Personally, I would have gone with the Kzinti (going more the Predator than Alien route if we're going to borrow from Sci-Fi horror) as the opponent for Pike's tour.
I'm curious if we're dealing with a Xindi situation where the Gorn consist of different reptile-esque species that all developed alongside one another. Considering how little we've seen of the Gorn in Canon, it might explain the varying designs we've seen so far while allowing for even more unusual designs later on.
Like, these are the vanguard species, that are sent in to claim planets with lower defensive capabilities, relying on quick parasitic reproduction to secure the population centers in a fast yet terrifying manner, with a communications blocker emplaced till the planet has been secured for incorporation into the hegemony. Think similar method to what alot of advanced insectile species in sci-fi tend to do, only applied to a reptilian form. This would also explain the gorn setting up a bomb onboard the wreck of the federation vessel, was most likely to wipe evidence of federation ship ever being there.
In no way shape or form am I considering calling the "guy in a terrible nonarticulating rubber mask" a "design". As much as I love Trek I don't romanticize the low budget, b movie aesthetic of the original. I know how to suspend disbelief in that case and say that it realistically would have looked better than it does. You can't just go back to that and not look incredibly ridiculous because Enterprise tried with CGI and somehow made it even worse.
With all the discussions about how will Gorns interact in the future .. a *Lower Decks* episode ? Have a bit with a Gorn baby accidentally getting loose, and they have to hunt it down _without hurting it_ so they can return it to its anxious and apologetic parents. The parents are also worried that this will impact their chances of getting a new non-sentient host body replicated by their sickbay for a potential sibling. The Gorn will have to be from a docked ship or station as the Cerritos isn't a family-friendly ship. As the ultimate twist, Boilmer comes up with a safe way to capture the kid and the parents are so grateful they bestow upon him a great honour - the brainless replicated host for their future children will look just like him.......
All in all, my understanding of alpha and beta canon, including bits from Star Trek Online, is that their species is prone to a very high degree of genetic adaptation. Much like Earth's dogs have such an incredibly wide variety of breeds, so too have the Gorn; a species with many, very different, breeds. Castes, sometimes they're referred to. I'm fine with understanding the SNW Gorn as another breed from ones we've seen before, doesnt bother me. Same thing with the Mirror Universe Gorn.
That's why I added the reference to genetic modification and stuff at the end, not sure where they will take the Gorn but I think this is definitely a possibility they'll carry over from beta canon.
@@CertifiablyIngame I will be happy to see them expanded. They're my favorite race in Trek, and my favorite to play in STO. I'm really hopeful to see some of these new physical appearances be added to the game, in particular. I've always wanted a tail for my Gorn. Their beta canon has some fascinating information, such as the myth of the birth of their race.
If the super-fast breeding also leads to quick evolution, it would make sense that there may be related but very different variants -- like the examples of the SNW tailed Gorn [which kinda reminded me of the Space Pirates from Metroid Prime], Enterprise tail-less, more dinosaur-shaped Gorn, and the TOS/Lower Decks style. Plus that "refractory lens HUD" thing could totally work. I like when there are in-universe explanations to fill in gaps created by changes in FX ability and style [like how Enterprise attributed the ridgeless TOS Klingons vs. TMP-era/TNG ridged Klingons to an oopsie with a Human augment virus experiment]
1) You sure these guys were not the real predators for Tribbles? 2) The life cycle reads like a cross between Xenomorphs and WH40K Orks. 3) These guys, along with the Romulans really need fleshing out.
@@dupersuper1938 Not as much as the Klingons. Not like the Klingons, where their culture and internal working ARE the story. The Romulans are still just a plot device. They have few named characters or note, really only the Tal Shiar are their only "character", and just when we could have learned more about them "Oops! Romulus got exploded!"
@@DocWolph Klingons are a high bar: they've basically been supporting characters throughout Trek, especially TNG and DS9; but I think we know far more about the Romulans than you've acknowledged. We know their history, their military codes of conduct, the secrecy and scheming that permeates their culture, their technology, their space...we've met honorable Romulans, duplicitous Romulans, bigoted Romulans, open-minded Romulans, cruel Romulans, merciful Romulans, unhinged Romulans, tactical Romulans...we've seen them reunified with the Vulcans, we've seen their homeworld, their senate, their secret organizations,...they've been in TOS, TAS, the movies (TOS, TNG and Kelvin), TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy...
Even if i don't like much the alien copy element this update is great inc design even if i would have their babies act more with planning, intelligences and cunning mixes in with the animalistic parts
What if the gorn don't just use people as breeding sacks, what if a part of the host is transferred. Maybe they are undergoing some big changes, transforming future gorn into ones more fitting TOS. I dunno, would be interesting though.
The updated Gorn are absolutely terrifying, I'm a huge fan tbh. I also love the parasitic reproduction aspect, it makes them more alien than just being space lizards.
With that new "ridley scott alien" angle going on, maybe the grown up Gorn is influenced by it's host species? If so, their current behavior might be largely due to a previous host species. And the much more...cooperation capable Gorn from TOS+ might be the result of breeding on humans.
You know, I stumbled onto something else that now makes me wince in comparison with the source material. For some reason, I think that the writers and people attached to SNW seem to be fans of the Carnosaur movies because mentioning the new Gorn had someone else bring up those movies and books...I'd managed to wipe them from my mind, but the Gorn are now CARNOSAUR: THE SERIES/IN SPACE!
I have a strong suspicion that SNW will make the Gorn somewhat similar to the Scarrans of Farscape., that is, they develop specific breeds depending on the need, ie intelligent (but weak) Gorn for leadership and diplomacy, feral but unintelligent Gorn for warfare, etc
My theory: the babies need warmth and food and the bridge to peace will be partially accomplished by finding some alternative to live hosts that suits these basic purposes
A chunk of meat grown from stem cells attached to life support should do the job fine TBH. We'll probably be able to do stuff like that by the end of the century as we already have the technology to grow meat from stem cells in bioreactors, plus if it is basically just a cube of muscle with no organs and running off external life support, then when it regrows it can be reused.
@@Cdr2002 It could let the show deal with stem cell ethics potentially, but it would also make the Gorn look more stupid as they invented warp travel, yet couldn't figure out how to be more efficient with their reproductive method and for some reason decided that dumping hosts and kids on random planets light years from home is "a good idea." How'd they even get to space aswell, let alone get warp drive. The only way you could at all justify them using other M class planets for breeding would be if their home planet was comically overpopulated that there's no room for places for the kids to go, but logically that would happen well well before warp, and they'd either kill themselves through action (too much competition resulting in extinction) or inaction (collapsed ecosystem severing food and host supplies resulting in extinction).
@@JimmyBlether stem cell stuff would be interesting, and overpopulation could be an issue for the Gorn. Given that they seem to still adhere to some base instincts despite their obvious advancements, I think it’s possible that they never considered more humane options and prior breaches of their territory made them think lesser of other species. Or the simple fact that they’re reptiles and most other Alpha and Beta Quadrant sentients are mammals creates a gap in understanding. I know people in the comments of Rick’s videos love to be extremely negative, but I think the writers can figure something out
@@JimmyBletherDon't underestimate cultural influence, though; they may already have the capacity to support their young perfectly well without live hosts, but their culture, based on predation and survival of the fittest as it is, may place high value on continuing to hunt down hosts.
I would have like to see the Gorn become the VC to Star Fleet's Vietnam. The fact that the Federation has "never lost a war" weakens its position on anti-militarism stance. Sure you have the Vulcans that would oppose it but you also have the Andorians and Telekites who would have originally supported it until they realized it was too costly.
As long as they start to move away from the full xenomorph treatment in season 3, I think they're ok. Hell, actually have the federation talk to the gorn and the gorn be like "this is how we reproduce, we don't get to have a choice in the matter," type conversation.
Yeah..... that mean's they have to retcon the retcon they just did. If you have to rewrite what you just did to make it work for future episodes then it probably wasn't any dame good to start with.
@@eol6632 they don’t have to retcon anything. YOUNG Gorn act like xenomorph, and ADULT Gorn can talk and operate technology and all that. We’ve already seen evidence of this dichotomy . No rewrite needed
I really want to see what they look like Outside of the suit we see the adult in... Because what we can see from the suit itself, its going to be extremely dangerous. I mean, their physically strong as hell, as when Chapel first sees the adult it is hanging upside down from the ceiling accessing the panel using just its feet and a single hand, and the tail itself if you look at the suit has bone colored blades and spikes coming out of the suit, meaning its hide at least on its tail is tough enough to deal with the cold and vacuum of space for extended periods of time. To be honest, the only reason spock and chapel won was because space itself was a factor; if that adult hadn't had a vulnerable faceplate, it would have killed them both. As a aside, taking a look at a closeup of the spacesuit the gorn qas wearing, the bit that had me applauding the modeling was that they remembered that a predatory species like the gorn would have big ass talons on the feet, and the suits feet aren't "boots" like I've seen other sci fi do for predator species, its more like a "mitten" that conforms to the foot and allows full ranges of motion, as we see it "perch" on the railing when its fighting spock
That bait-and-switch ending in the finale was pretty clever. You see everyone get transported up thinking they're safe, but then I was like "wait, that's not how the Enterprise transporter beam looks..."
Even though this seems to conflict with the Gorn we've seen in pre-2005 Trek, I have to say I kinda dig the xenomorph Gorn. It's nice to see a rarely used legacy villain be used instead of Klingons again or shoehorning the Borg in somehow.
While I agree that the Gorn may need an overhaul over the primitive rubber suit used in TOS... I really hate that they turned them into Xenomorph copycat. If they had turned the Gorn into a live-action version of the STO Gorn I would have been happy. All that I would remove from the NuGorn is the Xenomorph style birth. Have the NuGorn lay eggs that hatch and the newborns are the bloodthirsty little killing machines shown so far. That would make Gorn select hatching worlds for their abundance of prey, or the ease of being able to deliver prey. Hell, this would still allow the survivor-Laan backstory (you could even make that the name Gorn is based on her description of a sound they make). So, how are they going to explain that Kirk in TOS had no idea what a Gorn is? Or that they couldn't identify the Gorn ship? Or are they finally admitting that the show is not in the same timeline as TOS?
I highly wonder if La'an will see this "Gorn" in 2409 in Star Trek Online era without being traumatized? Since this Gorn are humanoid, civilized, intelligent and not as animalistic as they were before unless the one she encounters are subspecies of Gorn.
Honestly, the people who worked on Strange New Worlds have proven to me that they just don’t understand the Gorn. Back when the Baby Gorn episode came out all the behind the scenes stuff was talking about how the Gorn were pure savage and pure evil, conveniently forgetting that the whole point of Arena, the episode the Gorn were introduced in was that the Gorn…we’re not monsters! Capable fighters and capable of mistakes sure, but they didn’t attack for pleasure or as inhuman beasts, but as a sentient species that saw an unknown species with unknown intent coming into their space without so much as a greeting. AKA What any sentient species would do. These writers, conveniently forgot that the Gorn were people, not discount Xenomorphs. And while I do like the Sangheili space suit design, they keep making the same mistake of thinking of them as monsters to kill rather sentient beings. They judged atheist Gorn book by the scaley cover, and missed the whole point of not just the Gorn but of Star Trek in general.
I don't even think they even care about old trek or what the Horn were supposed to be. They just want full creative freedom in someone else's universe.
What happens when the writer's only understand the gorn as "that monster from the old show" while forgetting the entire point of the original episode it was it
The gorn were a literal joke in TOS. Y’all need to relax. Trek has been back in a golden era the past two years and y’all are still sitting here acting like the comic book guy from the Simpson’s. Sad.
They didn’t forget the point, otherwise it wouldn’t be such a stark inversion of that point. Not to mention we have Admiral April saying Pike shouldn’t judge them so quickly, before Pike then realised they _can_ work together. People really need to stop comparing one or two episodes against decades of TV, everyone always acts like there’s no plan or further development to do.
In the TOS it was established that in the Prime Universe Kirk's Enterprise (including Spock) knew nothing of the Gorn and that the Enterprise was the first Federation starship to make contact with the Gorn. If the Federation knew about them it doesn't hold water that they wouldn't, or at least Spock wouldn't have provided Kirk with info about the race, rumors or other wise. Hell, the people on Cestis III should have been warned. When Kirk established he believed the Gorn/Aliens were invading the Federation Spock didn't say a thing beyond saying in this area of space there have been strange subspace signals and legends - more than likely referring to the Metrons not the Gorn. Even after Spock scanned them, ectothermic reptiles, on Cestis III he didn't recognize them. This gives even more evidence (besides the tech, uniforms (Starfleet didn't use black collars or red uniforms until after Kirk was in already in command, not before), the Klingons, the Enterprise itself, etc.) that SNW doesn't take place in the Prime Universe but takes place in the separate Discovery Universe. I guess, if they can't be bothered to even get the Enterprise right, why bother with established "Star Trek" history. This makes any extra details appearing in Discovery and it's spinoffs about aliens that appear in the Prime Universe, like the Gorn, suspect. Fan (people who have actually seen "Star Trek") produced extensions of TOS, like "Star Trek Continues" demonstrate what shows in the Discovery Universe could and should have been, i. e. No Gorn (at least in connection with the Federation and Starfleet) in pre-TOS.
I love non-humanoid aliens in Star Trek. Despite making them more "monster-y", the Gorn still don't qualify. They're still just binocular bipeds. I'm looking for more species like the Horta, Lactran, Medusans, Gumtu, Crystalline Entity, Q, microbrain, space amoeba, species 10-C, Nascene, Sheliac, Excalbians, Phylosians, Kelvans, conspiracy parasites, etc.
Did you know there actually were plans for a xenomorph and star trek crossover comic? There are still some official concept covers up but the thing was cancelled, I can't really remember why though.
I wonder if Sord, a character introduced in the 1970s Star Trek animated series, will be retconned as a Gorn, considering the design is pretty much identical to that of SNW.
I'm hoping the Gorn of SNW are NOT the Gorn of Cestus III - I love the slow xenoreptiliians with compound eyes. (A dodge which makes the Gorn captain in Arena impossible to determine the gaze of... which means far less likelyhood of said Gorn telegraphing their attacks.) Then again, I really like the alternate Trek Setting of the ADB produced board and roleplaying games.... in which there are 3 Gorn species, plus a related 4th which is aviaform...
An alien reference is always welcomed but strapping it onto a pre-existing species in such a brazen way now cements the Gorn as nothing more than an Alien knock off, despite pre-dating the xenomorph. This is why I struggle to love New Trek, it just feels like a unhinged melting pot of ideas with no refinement or restraint.
Not a fan of them ripping off Alien for Gorn procreation. I'd be much more interested in a faithful adaptation instead of all these gimmicks. These guys are for focused on trying to turn everything into a horror movie than making good Star Trek. Another great source outside the books is Starfleet Command II, where Gorn were featured piloting massive, heavily armored ships with Plasma Torpedoes. The artwork in their profile was fantastic and faithful to the original. If I ever created a Star Trek novel, show, or game, I'd honestly remove anything Kurtzman or Kelvin from canon and continue on from Deepspace 9, decades later. I seriously would have loved to see the Gorn ripping the Jem'Hadar apart.
I think the hegemony might be a multi-species civilization, more similar to what we see used in intelligent insectile and plant based species in sci-fi usually. Like, these are the vanguard species, that are sent in to claim planets with lower defensive capabilities, relying on quick parasitic reproduction to secure the population centers in a fast yet terrifying manner, with a communications blocker emplaced till the planet has been secured for incorporation into the hegemony. Think similar method to what alot of advanced insectile species in sci-fi tend to do, only applied to a reptilian form. This would also explain the gorn setting up a bomb onboard the wreck of the federation vessel, was most likely to wipe evidence of federation ship ever being there.
Turning the Gorn into Alien aliens, is the most stupid thing coming out of Kurtzman Trek, wait no, that are still the musical numbers. Point being, this undermines the whole point of the TOS episode 1x18 "Arena".
@@rodan9773 Well, with parasitoid wasps, they at least tend to either lay eggs on/in hosts that won't harm them (e.g. caterpillars), or actually subdue the host in one way or another. Their offspring also don't just violate the 1st law of thermodynamics when they feel like it, like a xenomorph. Plus parasitoid wasps are small in comparison to humans so there's a size disparity. Only things that really distinguishes the SNW Gorn method and the xenomorph version is no facehuggers and that SOMEHOW the offspring can impregnate others, but then all the same, those two kinda combine into "the offspring are made into bootleg facehuggers" as there is no logical reason why their spit somehow can make you make more SNW gorn, but also its an "immature form of the adult specimen" (a la facehugger) implanting seeds/young into a host, meaning it is kinda facehugger by any other name and without the facehugging part.
@@JimmyBlether I actually kind of like how the xenomorph basically gives the middle finger to the law of thermodynamics. I feel like it makes weyland yutani's desperate want for the xenomorph make more sense. Who wouldn't want to study a creature that messes with our understanding of physics. Shame that they never really acknowledge how illogical they are in the movies, the novelization kind of did it when the characters started contemplating what it could do.
The whole alien stuff popping out of the body was just so unoriginal. Being sentient as they are supposedly believed to be, it would be assumed that they would raise their offspring like any other intelligent species.
You're applying preconceptions of how we raise children against the biology of a species that is clearly a hypercarnivore. Many predator species will eat their own young, this is that but dialed up to 11.
Not to mention how logistically infeasible it would be to consistently search for aliens to use as incubators rather then just having some lesser animal species domesticated for the role instead. Or a purely technological solution with birthing pods or cloned biobags.
@@Shinzon23 This wouldn't make sense as logically on their homeworld, there shouldn't just be a random humanoid species usable as hosts. There would be every other kind of animal besides that and logically they would have a preference, but there is no reason to change to humanoids which will actively try to kill your young because highly intelligent species, ya know, hold grudges.
Yeah, I don't see any possibility of beings that function on a primal basis like this or klingons being technologically advanced, that's like saying a neanderthal can build and fly an F-22
I'm not a fan of them pretty much taking from Xenomorph lore. But I hope somewhere down the line they will change it saying something like this reproduce this way only when there is war and that's the quickest way to replenish their ranks.
If we ignore all the alien aspects, they decided to give them gecko eyes. Gecko. Eyes. The only gecko that looks even halfway threatening is a tokay, and thats by reputation of being grumpy alone really. Otherwise, they look like little cuddly idiots. Conventional slit pupils without the multiple pinholes would have done fine, but instead they gotta entirely overdesign the species to the point where its comically aggressive/monster like which really no lizard is like for a point of comparison. They can be spiky, but its always for a justifiable reason, not just to shrink-swap every plate on the body into a spacesuit. (I'm someone who's a fan of reptiles hence why I'm annoyed at the wrongness on the reptile side of things, plus well, illogical spacesuit design from a real world practicality perspective)
So now I wonderhow the Klingon Empire deals with their life cycle in Star Trek Online. Do they send criminals, who are way too bad even for Rura Penthe to the gorn or do they use some other method?
I think these are separate universe s at this point. In STO beta cannon the Gorn were shown nesting with physical eggs on a swamp like planet. Part of the mission was too destroy the nest and the attack ing adult Gorn afterwards.
Nice video but what confuses me is the timeline, if the Federation were "aware" of the gorn in stardate 2254 why was Captain Kirk unaware of the gorn if his encounter occurred in stardate 3054.6, surely the gorn must have been in their datebanks by then? LLNP 🖖
ST:NW interpretation of Gorn was just bleh. They wanted to do a ST:Alien episode and couldn't just make a new alien. Instead they made this weird thing and sifted through the Star Trek alien name list and used the Gorn.
so the Gorn are now Xenomorphs...... lazy and disappointing. The Gorn in The Original Series were an incredible design and so full of mystery and potential. They should've learn from Enterprise that the Gorn don't work in CGI; they have to be a guy in a rubber suit. Why did Viacom/Paramount/CBS hire a guy from ABC to do new Star Trek instead of calling back the surviving writers, directors, and/or producers of Next Generation, DS9, and/or Voyager? He has to work for pennies 'cause that's the only reason I can think of that makes any kind of sense. The lesson we can all learn from this is don't smoke crack.
The Fedaration should of went to War with them after all The Death and Damage they did but The Puss...Peaceful Fedaration God Bless them wanted to make Friends with The Mass Murdering Raptors. Respect and keep up the epic work.
Being a long time fan of the Gorn, and having one of my favorite characters in STO being a Gorn I have this to say about SNW's take on the Gorn... #NotMyGorn They should have made the scary, xenomorph like race a different creature than the Gorn. Perhaps a species from the same world as the Gorn that had to move them away considering how dangerous they are to everything else, including their own siblings. What SNW has done to the Gorn is idiotic, much like what SNW has done with a lot of things. I gave it a chance. Really wanted to like it, but after what they did with Spock combined with the musical episode has driven me away. I'll never watch that sheit again.
One issue I have is the placement of eggs inside hosts. Can’t believe it as I’m not aware of any reptile on Earth that did. Insects, nematodes, worms do it but no reptiles. I think the writers could have used crocodilians as a social model for the Gorns instead. At least parental instincts exist with possible social structures. I’d like to know how they could actually resolve not having a tail in the original series. Otherwise it’s a good update.
The Gorn aren't from Earth so why are you failing to grasp that detail? Just bcos earth reptiles don't use parasitical eggs & hosts doesn't mean an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SPECIES from an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANET wouldn't.
i am sort of fine with their parasitic form of population growth, but with the way they come out and that (intended or not) refrence to the scene in alien 3 really makes me look at the as discount xenomophs (at least in terms of reproduction). A problem i have is that from the info we have it seems that most/all of their (current) hosts are abductees rather than "livestock" consisting of either animals kept, bred and infected in farms or some kind of slave population, either is something that one would expect from a species that is capable of interstellar travel with this kind of reporduction method. abductions should be a supplimentary way of pop growth, not the main way.
Tbf the original Gorn were also cliche. Just generic bad guy of the week 18. With SNW continuing to have the Gorn as a main bad guy their actual culture will begin to show instead of just being angry space lizards.
I especially liked how "Arena" was an allegory about how people who seem very different, alien, and even monstrous to us can have legitimate grievances, and then Strange New Worlds was like "nah, people who are different from you really ARE just mindless, ontologically evil monsters! Careful you don't go near them or they might infect you!"
@@TaterTotinski yep... that, Strange New World ENDORSING eugenics, and Seven's speeches about the cold dark hard brutality of the universe (as well as every crew being comprised of emotionally-stunted adult children crying and screaming all the time) told me that whatever these new shows are, they aren't Star Trek. They're a Star Trek skinsuit.
That sums up what why I don't like modern Star Trek. They forgot the whole point of trek. It wasn't about the aliens, technology, or action but about morality/understanding.
@@MonsterKidCory SNW "endorsed eugenics" in the SAME WAY as Deep Space Nine did with Bashir. Or is DS9 "Star Trek in a skinsuit" too? Lame as fuck toxic fans like you with same old BULLSHIT complaints about new trek not being trek, until it's not new trek.
@MonsterKidCory, NOTHING in SNW contradicts the depiction of the Gorn in TOS. Nothing. Your entire stupid and redundant comment is based on PERCEPTION!! The whole "mindless, ontologically evil monsters" argument you just spouted is Khan's/humanities' PERCEPTION of them. SNW pre-dates TOS remember. I know thinking hurts when you're a mindless toxic fan, but give it a try for once.
I still think these aren't proper Gorn, just animals from Gornar. Like how you can call a dog or gorilla a "terran" or "earthling" and not technically be wrong.
I love Strange New Worlds. It's my favourite of the "new Trek" shows (and I love Prodigy and Lower Decks, liked Short Treks, liked SEASON THREE of Picard [season 2 was awful and season 1 is probably my least favourite Star Trek ever], and - though Discovery's been a mess from the beginning - I have found it improves slightly each season). I seriously look forward to SNW each week that it's on. Great cast. Great classic Trek feel with blessedly episodic stories (current Trek doesn't seem to do season long arcs...well). I was even in for the musical episode. All that being said, their take on the Gorn is - I feel - one of their few missteps. If you need a species to be THAT different from what we see in the earlier episode (and - thematically - that different from the point of that episode), and you have an involved arc planned complete with subspace border negotiations with a people Kirk and crew (including Spock, Uhura and Scotty) don't know at all years later, just make up a new species.
...ngl, it irritates me to no end at how the Gorn got depicted in the new show. One of the few reptilian races in the franchise, and a perfect chance to produce a sympathetic depiction of a reptilian race which we rarely ever see. BUT NOOOOOOOO, they're just a bunch of predatory raiders with a bit of random xenomorph added. Mind you this is fuckin Star Trek that did this, Star Trek the franchise, not just show, FRANCHISE about exploration and peace through understanding.
I agree with you wholeheartedly as beta Canon Gorn seemed done in a mostly respectful manner in the previous index by the various writers of their lore. Really mammals tend to be considerably more brutal than reptiles. If you look up snakes competing for mates, even venomous ones, you'll see they'll do wrestling matches and almost literally every time never bite each other. Of course they ain't got arms or claws but monitor lizards are kinda similar in that they too wrestle, and I believe don't kill each other. Mammals, uh, let's just spear the opponent with my massive bone horns and let them bleed out on the ground or something IDK. Or "this is my harem now, I'm gonna kill all the kids."
I like the changes to the Gorn except for the infecting prey with eggs by spraying them with something. It's a little too Magog (Andromedia) for me. I would like to see the Strange New Worlds take on Tholians.
Prehaps with Replicator technology they completely change their life cycle? It becomes mainstream between TOS and TNG, and the idea of using a _Replicated_ host might result in a complete change in their society and culture. [After all Vulcans went through a massive change soon after the time of 'Enterprise' with Telepathy going from forbidden to mainstream.] And the changes results in the Gorn becoming able to coexist with the Federation. Add in Holodecks as a outlet for their hunting instincts and they could become regular citizens that just need to make special arrangements when breeding and having recreational programs that _most_ others find disturbing. Or _these_ particular Gorn are a separate religious fundamentalist sect that practice _the Old Ways_ that mainstream Gorn reject, who use lab grown non aware host (which might be far more medically safer for the young). But if this is 'currently' the common behaviour of their species, 24th century Gorn might consider mid 23rd century Gorn as barbaric the same way Federation Humans view pre contact Humans. "We used to use living beings as incubators." Gorn parent to their now intelligent child that they raise in a traditional Humanoid fashion. "Honey, we've got company tonight, make sure junior is well fed beforehand, we don't want him hunting the guest.... well put him on a leash."
I'm curious what would happen if the Gorn ever encountered the Hirogen. Some solid AVP style potential there
My money is on the Hirogen. The Hirogen tech is significantly more advanced than Star Fleet who is on par with the Gorn tech.
GET TO DA SHUTTLE!!!!
Considering the tech of the Hirogen being a notable threat to friggin' Voyager, and that's not even getting into the fact they seem to have downright overpowered power armour, my money's on the Hirogen.
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Thanks for clarifying what you meant
Gorn vs.Hirogen would be AWESOME!!!
The whole "Gorn are our allies now" still strikes me as a "HOW?!" way harder than any other species this happens to.
This could be based on the Starfleet Universe when after the Cestus III incident, the two sides realized it was a misunderstanding and developed diplomatic relations that resulted in an alliance based on their mutual antagonism with the Romulans. This was all before they turned them to xenomorphs for Strange New Worlds.
Personally, I hate this take on the Gorn. The point of the Gorn was to present a very alien life form to humans, but still show they deserve respect and the right to live. Yet, now they are the monsters Kirk believed them to be.
Personally, I would have gone with the Kzinti (going more the Predator than Alien route if we're going to borrow from Sci-Fi horror) as the opponent for Pike's tour.
"Do you think anyone would notice if we copied almost the entirety of the 'Aliens' xenomorph lifecycle?"
don't worry it will be covered up by the predator references we threw in
Would’ve been awesome to see in the dominion war jem’hadar vs gorn
I'm curious if we're dealing with a Xindi situation where the Gorn consist of different reptile-esque species that all developed alongside one another. Considering how little we've seen of the Gorn in Canon, it might explain the varying designs we've seen so far while allowing for even more unusual designs later on.
I had a similar thought. That the Gorn Hegemony is composed of multiple species, just as the Federation is.
This was actually true of the Gorn in the canon of the old Star Fleet Battles series of tabletop war games/video games.
Like, these are the vanguard species, that are sent in to claim planets with lower defensive capabilities, relying on quick parasitic reproduction to secure the population centers in a fast yet terrifying manner, with a communications blocker emplaced till the planet has been secured for incorporation into the hegemony. Think similar method to what alot of advanced insectile species in sci-fi tend to do, only applied to a reptilian form. This would also explain the gorn setting up a bomb onboard the wreck of the federation vessel, was most likely to wipe evidence of federation ship ever being there.
In no way shape or form am I considering calling the "guy in a terrible nonarticulating rubber mask" a "design". As much as I love Trek I don't romanticize the low budget, b movie aesthetic of the original. I know how to suspend disbelief in that case and say that it realistically would have looked better than it does. You can't just go back to that and not look incredibly ridiculous because Enterprise tried with CGI and somehow made it even worse.
@@DeathBYDesign666easy to retcon the TOS Gorn to look like the STO Gorn
With all the discussions about how will Gorns interact in the future .. a *Lower Decks* episode ?
Have a bit with a Gorn baby accidentally getting loose, and they have to hunt it down _without hurting it_ so they can return it to its anxious and apologetic parents.
The parents are also worried that this will impact their chances of getting a new non-sentient host body replicated by their sickbay for a potential sibling.
The Gorn will have to be from a docked ship or station as the Cerritos isn't a family-friendly ship.
As the ultimate twist, Boilmer comes up with a safe way to capture the kid and the parents are so grateful they bestow upon him a great honour - the brainless replicated host for their future children will look just like him.......
Bonus points if it’s someone from the Gorn Wedding. ;D
All in all, my understanding of alpha and beta canon, including bits from Star Trek Online, is that their species is prone to a very high degree of genetic adaptation. Much like Earth's dogs have such an incredibly wide variety of breeds, so too have the Gorn; a species with many, very different, breeds. Castes, sometimes they're referred to. I'm fine with understanding the SNW Gorn as another breed from ones we've seen before, doesnt bother me. Same thing with the Mirror Universe Gorn.
That's why I added the reference to genetic modification and stuff at the end, not sure where they will take the Gorn but I think this is definitely a possibility they'll carry over from beta canon.
@@CertifiablyIngame I will be happy to see them expanded. They're my favorite race in Trek, and my favorite to play in STO. I'm really hopeful to see some of these new physical appearances be added to the game, in particular. I've always wanted a tail for my Gorn. Their beta canon has some fascinating information, such as the myth of the birth of their race.
If the super-fast breeding also leads to quick evolution, it would make sense that there may be related but very different variants -- like the examples of the SNW tailed Gorn [which kinda reminded me of the Space Pirates from Metroid Prime], Enterprise tail-less, more dinosaur-shaped Gorn, and the TOS/Lower Decks style. Plus that "refractory lens HUD" thing could totally work. I like when there are in-universe explanations to fill in gaps created by changes in FX ability and style [like how Enterprise attributed the ridgeless TOS Klingons vs. TMP-era/TNG ridged Klingons to an oopsie with a Human augment virus experiment]
1) You sure these guys were not the real predators for Tribbles?
2) The life cycle reads like a cross between Xenomorphs and WH40K Orks.
3) These guys, along with the Romulans really need fleshing out.
Seriously? The Romulans aren't fleshed out???
@@dupersuper1938
Not as much as the Klingons. Not like the Klingons, where their culture and internal working ARE the story. The Romulans are still just a plot device. They have few named characters or note, really only the Tal Shiar are their only "character", and just when we could have learned more about them "Oops! Romulus got exploded!"
@@DocWolph Klingons are a high bar: they've basically been supporting characters throughout Trek, especially TNG and DS9; but I think we know far more about the Romulans than you've acknowledged. We know their history, their military codes of conduct, the secrecy and scheming that permeates their culture, their technology, their space...we've met honorable Romulans, duplicitous Romulans, bigoted Romulans, open-minded Romulans, cruel Romulans, merciful Romulans, unhinged Romulans, tactical Romulans...we've seen them reunified with the Vulcans, we've seen their homeworld, their senate, their secret organizations,...they've been in TOS, TAS, the movies (TOS, TNG and Kelvin), TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy...
Even if i don't like much the alien copy element this update is great inc design even if i would have their babies act more with planning, intelligences and cunning mixes in with the animalistic parts
What if the gorn don't just use people as breeding sacks, what if a part of the host is transferred. Maybe they are undergoing some big changes, transforming future gorn into ones more fitting TOS. I dunno, would be interesting though.
Sounds like how the Wraith evolved in Stargate from the Iratus Bug.
The updated Gorn are absolutely terrifying, I'm a huge fan tbh. I also love the parasitic reproduction aspect, it makes them more alien than just being space lizards.
It's kinda stupid though. Juveniles spraying acid as defence that also somehow contains eggs.. Idk that just doesn't make any sense.
With that new "ridley scott alien" angle going on, maybe the grown up Gorn is influenced by it's host species?
If so, their current behavior might be largely due to a previous host species. And the much more...cooperation capable Gorn from TOS+ might be the result of breeding on humans.
I think the new Gorn are too savage for the technology they display on the show
You know, I stumbled onto something else that now makes me wince in comparison with the source material.
For some reason, I think that the writers and people attached to SNW seem to be fans of the Carnosaur movies because mentioning the new Gorn had someone else bring up those movies and books...I'd managed to wipe them from my mind, but the Gorn are now CARNOSAUR: THE SERIES/IN SPACE!
Keep up with these updates. I love to hear how things changed or improved
I have a strong suspicion that SNW will make the Gorn somewhat similar to the Scarrans of Farscape., that is, they develop specific breeds depending on the need, ie intelligent (but weak) Gorn for leadership and diplomacy, feral but unintelligent Gorn for warfare, etc
Now the Gorn are all complex an intimidating what fun is that..
I like my gorn from STO. SnW made them look like Zorak from space ghost
My theory: the babies need warmth and food and the bridge to peace will be partially accomplished by finding some alternative to live hosts that suits these basic purposes
A chunk of meat grown from stem cells attached to life support should do the job fine TBH. We'll probably be able to do stuff like that by the end of the century as we already have the technology to grow meat from stem cells in bioreactors, plus if it is basically just a cube of muscle with no organs and running off external life support, then when it regrows it can be reused.
@@JimmyBlether sounds like a really interesting idea, maybe we’ll see something like that
@@Cdr2002 It could let the show deal with stem cell ethics potentially, but it would also make the Gorn look more stupid as they invented warp travel, yet couldn't figure out how to be more efficient with their reproductive method and for some reason decided that dumping hosts and kids on random planets light years from home is "a good idea."
How'd they even get to space aswell, let alone get warp drive. The only way you could at all justify them using other M class planets for breeding would be if their home planet was comically overpopulated that there's no room for places for the kids to go, but logically that would happen well well before warp, and they'd either kill themselves through action (too much competition resulting in extinction) or inaction (collapsed ecosystem severing food and host supplies resulting in extinction).
@@JimmyBlether stem cell stuff would be interesting, and overpopulation could be an issue for the Gorn. Given that they seem to still adhere to some base instincts despite their obvious advancements, I think it’s possible that they never considered more humane options and prior breaches of their territory made them think lesser of other species. Or the simple fact that they’re reptiles and most other Alpha and Beta Quadrant sentients are mammals creates a gap in understanding. I know people in the comments of Rick’s videos love to be extremely negative, but I think the writers can figure something out
@@JimmyBletherDon't underestimate cultural influence, though; they may already have the capacity to support their young perfectly well without live hosts, but their culture, based on predation and survival of the fittest as it is, may place high value on continuing to hunt down hosts.
I would have like to see the Gorn become the VC to Star Fleet's Vietnam. The fact that the Federation has "never lost a war" weakens its position on anti-militarism stance. Sure you have the Vulcans that would oppose it but you also have the Andorians and Telekites who would have originally supported it until they realized it was too costly.
I hope strange new worlds makes the Gorn
a regular enemy of the series
not unlike the Borg to TNG
As long as they start to move away from the full xenomorph treatment in season 3, I think they're ok. Hell, actually have the federation talk to the gorn and the gorn be like "this is how we reproduce, we don't get to have a choice in the matter," type conversation.
I get the problem people have with the xenomorph thing but I think they’ll move away from that when we see adults fully in season 3
Yeah..... that mean's they have to retcon the retcon they just did.
If you have to rewrite what you just did to make it work for future episodes then it probably wasn't any dame good to start with.
@@eol6632 they don’t have to retcon anything. YOUNG Gorn act like xenomorph, and ADULT Gorn can talk and operate technology and all that. We’ve already seen evidence of this dichotomy . No rewrite needed
But... they're *PEOPLE.*
Not parasitic spider-raptors.
@@happyslapsgiving5421 correct. The babies are the only ones we’ve seen behave like parasites. Human babies are a lot less advanced than human adults.
@@Cdr2002 Tricorder detects high levels of copium.
3:30 Oh dear. We'll have to eliminate this threat. Greetings from Platonius! 😃
I really want to see what they look like Outside of the suit we see the adult in... Because what we can see from the suit itself, its going to be extremely dangerous.
I mean, their physically strong as hell, as when Chapel first sees the adult it is hanging upside down from the ceiling accessing the panel using just its feet and a single hand, and the tail itself if you look at the suit has bone colored blades and spikes coming out of the suit, meaning its hide at least on its tail is tough enough to deal with the cold and vacuum of space for extended periods of time.
To be honest, the only reason spock and chapel won was because space itself was a factor; if that adult hadn't had a vulnerable faceplate, it would have killed them both.
As a aside, taking a look at a closeup of the spacesuit the gorn qas wearing, the bit that had me applauding the modeling was that they remembered that a predatory species like the gorn would have big ass talons on the feet, and the suits feet aren't "boots" like I've seen other sci fi do for predator species, its more like a "mitten" that conforms to the foot and allows full ranges of motion, as we see it "perch" on the railing when its fighting spock
That bait-and-switch ending in the finale was pretty clever. You see everyone get transported up thinking they're safe, but then I was like "wait, that's not how the Enterprise transporter beam looks..."
Even though this seems to conflict with the Gorn we've seen in pre-2005 Trek, I have to say I kinda dig the xenomorph Gorn. It's nice to see a rarely used legacy villain be used instead of Klingons again or shoehorning the Borg in somehow.
I love Gornography!
I always liked a comic that featured the Gorn. They discussed how being around mammals "creeped them out".
There are also like the magog from andromada. ( gene rodddenbery show , ) raiding species impregnated people
They decided to just make them aliens from Alien? Well that's disappointing.
While I agree that the Gorn may need an overhaul over the primitive rubber suit used in TOS... I really hate that they turned them into Xenomorph copycat.
If they had turned the Gorn into a live-action version of the STO Gorn I would have been happy.
All that I would remove from the NuGorn is the Xenomorph style birth.
Have the NuGorn lay eggs that hatch and the newborns are the bloodthirsty little killing machines shown so far.
That would make Gorn select hatching worlds for their abundance of prey, or the ease of being able to deliver prey.
Hell, this would still allow the survivor-Laan backstory (you could even make that the name Gorn is based on her description of a sound they make).
So, how are they going to explain that Kirk in TOS had no idea what a Gorn is?
Or that they couldn't identify the Gorn ship?
Or are they finally admitting that the show is not in the same timeline as TOS?
I highly wonder if La'an will see this "Gorn" in 2409 in Star Trek Online era without being traumatized? Since this Gorn are humanoid, civilized, intelligent and not as animalistic as they were before unless the one she encounters are subspecies of Gorn.
A new Cultural Index episode! :D
Feels like someone on SNW has a thing for a certain set of 21th century films. And thought the Gorn where a good way to squeeze them in.
Honestly, the people who worked on Strange New Worlds have proven to me that they just don’t understand the Gorn. Back when the Baby Gorn episode came out all the behind the scenes stuff was talking about how the Gorn were pure savage and pure evil, conveniently forgetting that the whole point of Arena, the episode the Gorn were introduced in was that the Gorn…we’re not monsters! Capable fighters and capable of mistakes sure, but they didn’t attack for pleasure or as inhuman beasts, but as a sentient species that saw an unknown species with unknown intent coming into their space without so much as a greeting. AKA What any sentient species would do. These writers, conveniently forgot that the Gorn were people, not discount Xenomorphs. And while I do like the Sangheili space suit design, they keep making the same mistake of thinking of them as monsters to kill rather sentient beings. They judged atheist Gorn book by the scaley cover, and missed the whole point of not just the Gorn but of Star Trek in general.
I don't even think they even care about old trek or what the Horn were supposed to be. They just want full creative freedom in someone else's universe.
Next on Cultural Index: the Votan Races from Defiance (Please? Their time is long overdue)
The Gorn act like the Zenomormph from the Alien movies.
Im really hoping we’ll get a point where we find out there’s many different gorn races all under the hegemony
What happens when the writer's only understand the gorn as "that monster from the old show" while forgetting the entire point of the original episode it was it
Implying the writers of new trek have even see TOS.
The gorn were a literal joke in TOS. Y’all need to relax. Trek has been back in a golden era the past two years and y’all are still sitting here acting like the comic book guy from the Simpson’s. Sad.
@@GooseGonnaGooseCopy pasting from alien with worse acting is a golden age?
They didn’t forget the point, otherwise it wouldn’t be such a stark inversion of that point. Not to mention we have Admiral April saying Pike shouldn’t judge them so quickly, before Pike then realised they _can_ work together.
People really need to stop comparing one or two episodes against decades of TV, everyone always acts like there’s no plan or further development to do.
It's pretty bad when even Star trek online did a better job with writing the Gorn.
Think about that for a minute.
In the TOS it was established that in the Prime Universe Kirk's Enterprise (including Spock) knew nothing of the Gorn and that the Enterprise was the first Federation starship to make contact with the Gorn. If the Federation knew about them it doesn't hold water that they wouldn't, or at least Spock wouldn't have provided Kirk with info about the race, rumors or other wise. Hell, the people on Cestis III should have been warned. When Kirk established he believed the Gorn/Aliens were invading the Federation Spock didn't say a thing beyond saying in this area of space there have been strange subspace signals and legends - more than likely referring to the Metrons not the Gorn. Even after Spock scanned them, ectothermic reptiles, on Cestis III he didn't recognize them.
This gives even more evidence (besides the tech, uniforms (Starfleet didn't use black collars or red uniforms until after Kirk was in already in command, not before), the Klingons, the Enterprise itself, etc.) that SNW doesn't take place in the Prime Universe but takes place in the separate Discovery Universe. I guess, if they can't be bothered to even get the Enterprise right, why bother with established "Star Trek" history. This makes any extra details appearing in Discovery and it's spinoffs about aliens that appear in the Prime Universe, like the Gorn, suspect.
Fan (people who have actually seen "Star Trek") produced extensions of TOS, like "Star Trek Continues" demonstrate what shows in the Discovery Universe could and should have been, i. e. No Gorn (at least in connection with the Federation and Starfleet) in pre-TOS.
Still kinda feels like a bargain-bin xenomorph.
I love the update. Trek needs more aliens that aren't humanoids.
100%, enough with the playdoh stuck to foreheads... *cough*Naomi*Wildman*cough
I love non-humanoid aliens in Star Trek. Despite making them more "monster-y", the Gorn still don't qualify. They're still just binocular bipeds. I'm looking for more species like the Horta, Lactran, Medusans, Gumtu, Crystalline Entity, Q, microbrain, space amoeba, species 10-C, Nascene, Sheliac, Excalbians, Phylosians, Kelvans, conspiracy parasites, etc.
I guess the writers wanted a Xenomorph episode.
Did you know there actually were plans for a xenomorph and star trek crossover comic? There are still some official concept covers up but the thing was cancelled, I can't really remember why though.
I wonder if Sord, a character introduced in the 1970s Star Trek animated series, will be retconned as a Gorn, considering the design is pretty much identical to that of SNW.
Gorn 2.0 vs borg would be very interesting😊
5:25 VERY CHILLY GORN!
I'm hoping the Gorn of SNW are NOT the Gorn of Cestus III - I love the slow xenoreptiliians with compound eyes. (A dodge which makes the Gorn captain in Arena impossible to determine the gaze of... which means far less likelyhood of said Gorn telegraphing their attacks.) Then again, I really like the alternate Trek Setting of the ADB produced board and roleplaying games.... in which there are 3 Gorn species, plus a related 4th which is aviaform...
An alien reference is always welcomed but strapping it onto a pre-existing species in such a brazen way now cements the Gorn as nothing more than an Alien knock off, despite pre-dating the xenomorph.
This is why I struggle to love New Trek,
it just feels like a unhinged melting pot of ideas with no refinement or restraint.
Not a fan of them ripping off Alien for Gorn procreation. I'd be much more interested in a faithful adaptation instead of all these gimmicks. These guys are for focused on trying to turn everything into a horror movie than making good Star Trek. Another great source outside the books is Starfleet Command II, where Gorn were featured piloting massive, heavily armored ships with Plasma Torpedoes. The artwork in their profile was fantastic and faithful to the original. If I ever created a Star Trek novel, show, or game, I'd honestly remove anything Kurtzman or Kelvin from canon and continue on from Deepspace 9, decades later. I seriously would have loved to see the Gorn ripping the Jem'Hadar apart.
5 years ? Time flies
I think the hegemony might be a multi-species civilization, more similar to what we see used in intelligent insectile and plant based species in sci-fi usually. Like, these are the vanguard species, that are sent in to claim planets with lower defensive capabilities, relying on quick parasitic reproduction to secure the population centers in a fast yet terrifying manner, with a communications blocker emplaced till the planet has been secured for incorporation into the hegemony. Think similar method to what alot of advanced insectile species in sci-fi tend to do, only applied to a reptilian form. This would also explain the gorn setting up a bomb onboard the wreck of the federation vessel, was most likely to wipe evidence of federation ship ever being there.
Why weren't there more conflicts with the Klingons and the Gorn?
How do we know there weren't?
Trying to construct some kind of crossover with the "Alien" franchise or just ran out of original ideas?
Turning the Gorn into Alien aliens, is the most stupid thing coming out of Kurtzman Trek, wait no, that are still the musical numbers.
Point being, this undermines the whole point of the TOS episode 1x18 "Arena".
Can you see the Dad jokes when they're dealing with their teenagers? ;)
Lol, love the youtube friendly gorn emoji xd
So, they’re just Xenomorphs now?
Xenos don't have a monopoly on this method of reproduction look at Wasps and Spiders.
@@rodan9773 Well, with parasitoid wasps, they at least tend to either lay eggs on/in hosts that won't harm them (e.g. caterpillars), or actually subdue the host in one way or another. Their offspring also don't just violate the 1st law of thermodynamics when they feel like it, like a xenomorph.
Plus parasitoid wasps are small in comparison to humans so there's a size disparity.
Only things that really distinguishes the SNW Gorn method and the xenomorph version is no facehuggers and that SOMEHOW the offspring can impregnate others, but then all the same, those two kinda combine into "the offspring are made into bootleg facehuggers" as there is no logical reason why their spit somehow can make you make more SNW gorn, but also its an "immature form of the adult specimen" (a la facehugger) implanting seeds/young into a host, meaning it is kinda facehugger by any other name and without the facehugging part.
@@JimmyBlether I actually kind of like how the xenomorph basically gives the middle finger to the law of thermodynamics. I feel like it makes weyland yutani's desperate want for the xenomorph make more sense. Who wouldn't want to study a creature that messes with our understanding of physics. Shame that they never really acknowledge how illogical they are in the movies, the novelization kind of did it when the characters started contemplating what it could do.
They're kind of being presented like the Magog from Andromeda.
I got an idea for another cultural index video. How about the cybermen from doctor who
The whole alien stuff popping out of the body was just so unoriginal. Being sentient as they are supposedly believed to be, it would be assumed that they would raise their offspring like any other intelligent species.
You're applying preconceptions of how we raise children against the biology of a species that is clearly a hypercarnivore. Many predator species will eat their own young, this is that but dialed up to 11.
Not to mention how logistically infeasible it would be to consistently search for aliens to use as incubators rather then just having some lesser animal species domesticated for the role instead. Or a purely technological solution with birthing pods or cloned biobags.
@@igncom1 Perhaps it's a case where they use people as incubators whenever possible, but have other ways of breeding in case that's not possible
@@igncom1this is what I’ve all along been expecting the ultimate solution to be, in another season or so
@@Shinzon23 This wouldn't make sense as logically on their homeworld, there shouldn't just be a random humanoid species usable as hosts. There would be every other kind of animal besides that and logically they would have a preference, but there is no reason to change to humanoids which will actively try to kill your young because highly intelligent species, ya know, hold grudges.
Can you do Battletech universe please ?
Yeah, I don't see any possibility of beings that function on a primal basis like this or klingons being technologically advanced, that's like saying a neanderthal can build and fly an F-22
I'd be honest even though it's similar to xenomorph, I really enjoy the new Lore on the Gorn.
The Girn update is one of the VERY few updates that actually works.
what's your Opinion, are human arguments stronger than the gorn?
No way. Augments are evenly matched with vulcans. Vulcans on the other hand are easily outmatched by gorn.
The Trek game based on the 2009 movie did the Gorn way better. Strange New Worlds Gorn are just a bad rip-off from Alien.
I'm not a fan of them pretty much taking from Xenomorph lore. But I hope somewhere down the line they will change it saying something like this reproduce this way only when there is war and that's the quickest way to replenish their ranks.
If we ignore all the alien aspects, they decided to give them gecko eyes. Gecko. Eyes.
The only gecko that looks even halfway threatening is a tokay, and thats by reputation of being grumpy alone really. Otherwise, they look like little cuddly idiots. Conventional slit pupils without the multiple pinholes would have done fine, but instead they gotta entirely overdesign the species to the point where its comically aggressive/monster like which really no lizard is like for a point of comparison. They can be spiky, but its always for a justifiable reason, not just to shrink-swap every plate on the body into a spacesuit.
(I'm someone who's a fan of reptiles hence why I'm annoyed at the wrongness on the reptile side of things, plus well, illogical spacesuit design from a real world practicality perspective)
I loved the new Gorn episode, but I wish we saw more of the Gorn. I want to see some badass Gorn fight scenes.
Over-use, and reliance of baddies makes them impotent. Look what Voyager did to the Borg.
SNW is not Prime. The showrunners have thrown in the towel on that claim.
Is this series dead? He hasn't updated it in ages, this video is essentially a remake, and there was no poll at the end
I wonder how the Hirogen would handle a Gorn
So now I wonderhow the Klingon Empire deals with their life cycle in Star Trek Online. Do they send criminals, who are way too bad even for Rura Penthe to the gorn or do they use some other method?
I think these are separate universe s at this point. In STO beta cannon the Gorn were shown nesting with physical eggs on a swamp like planet. Part of the mission was too destroy the nest and the attack ing adult Gorn afterwards.
Nice video but what confuses me is the timeline, if the Federation were "aware" of the gorn in stardate 2254 why was Captain Kirk unaware of the gorn if his encounter occurred in stardate 3054.6, surely the gorn must have been in their datebanks by then? LLNP 🖖
Probably the information did not reach everyone fast enough or a cover up among Starfleet higher ups. Who knows
ST:NW interpretation of Gorn was just bleh. They wanted to do a ST:Alien episode and couldn't just make a new alien. Instead they made this weird thing and sifted through the Star Trek alien name list and used the Gorn.
There actually was an alien and star trek crossover comic planned at one point though it cancelled. there is still some concept art online.
Yes FAR more ALIEN. Possibly a bit too much...
so the Gorn are now Xenomorphs...... lazy and disappointing. The Gorn in The Original Series were an incredible design and so full of mystery and potential. They should've learn from Enterprise that the Gorn don't work in CGI; they have to be a guy in a rubber suit. Why did Viacom/Paramount/CBS hire a guy from ABC to do new Star Trek instead of calling back the surviving writers, directors, and/or producers of Next Generation, DS9, and/or Voyager? He has to work for pennies 'cause that's the only reason I can think of that makes any kind of sense. The lesson we can all learn from this is don't smoke crack.
The Fedaration should of went to War with them after all The Death and Damage they did but The Puss...Peaceful Fedaration God Bless them wanted to make Friends with The Mass Murdering Raptors.
Respect and keep up the epic work.
At the very least they could have gone for the STO design if they had to change it
Being a long time fan of the Gorn, and having one of my favorite characters in STO being a Gorn I have this to say about SNW's take on the Gorn... #NotMyGorn
They should have made the scary, xenomorph like race a different creature than the Gorn. Perhaps a species from the same world as the Gorn that had to move them away considering how dangerous they are to everything else, including their own siblings. What SNW has done to the Gorn is idiotic, much like what SNW has done with a lot of things. I gave it a chance. Really wanted to like it, but after what they did with Spock combined with the musical episode has driven me away. I'll never watch that sheit again.
One issue I have is the placement of eggs inside hosts. Can’t believe it as I’m not aware of any reptile on Earth that did. Insects, nematodes, worms do it but no reptiles. I think the writers could have used crocodilians as a social model for the Gorns instead. At least parental instincts exist with possible social structures. I’d like to know how they could actually resolve not having a tail in the original series. Otherwise it’s a good update.
The Gorn aren't from Earth so why are you failing to grasp that detail? Just bcos earth reptiles don't use parasitical eggs & hosts doesn't mean an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SPECIES from an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANET wouldn't.
bye.youve been rick 🙌
🖖
Rubber Suit Gorn is the best Gorn. :)
i am sort of fine with their parasitic form of population growth, but with the way they come out and that (intended or not) refrence to the scene in alien 3 really makes me look at the as discount xenomophs (at least in terms of reproduction).
A problem i have is that from the info we have it seems that most/all of their (current) hosts are abductees rather than "livestock" consisting of either animals kept, bred and infected in farms or some kind of slave population, either is something that one would expect from a species that is capable of interstellar travel with this kind of reporduction method. abductions should be a supplimentary way of pop growth, not the main way.
As much as I have enjoyed Strange New Worlds, the reimagining of the Gorn is something I don't like. It's a bit too cliche.
Tbf the original Gorn were also cliche. Just generic bad guy of the week 18. With SNW continuing to have the Gorn as a main bad guy their actual culture will begin to show instead of just being angry space lizards.
And a lazy rip on other sci-fi franchise's
I fucking hate the redesigns. Its continually made things look less appealing in any way.
I don't think they are true Gorn. I think they are are a genetic engineered faction of the Gorn. Which ties well the La'an character arc.
I especially liked how "Arena" was an allegory about how people who seem very different, alien, and even monstrous to us can have legitimate grievances, and then Strange New Worlds was like "nah, people who are different from you really ARE just mindless, ontologically evil monsters! Careful you don't go near them or they might infect you!"
@@TaterTotinski yep... that, Strange New World ENDORSING eugenics, and Seven's speeches about the cold dark hard brutality of the universe (as well as every crew being comprised of emotionally-stunted adult children crying and screaming all the time) told me that whatever these new shows are, they aren't Star Trek. They're a Star Trek skinsuit.
That sums up what why I don't like modern Star Trek. They forgot the
whole point of trek. It wasn't about the aliens, technology, or action but about morality/understanding.
@@TaterTotinski you are the definition of a mindless, toxic fan stuck in the past.
@@MonsterKidCory SNW "endorsed eugenics" in the SAME WAY as Deep Space Nine did with Bashir. Or is DS9 "Star Trek in a skinsuit" too?
Lame as fuck toxic fans like you with same old BULLSHIT complaints about new trek not being trek, until it's not new trek.
@MonsterKidCory, NOTHING in SNW contradicts the depiction of the Gorn in TOS. Nothing. Your entire stupid and redundant comment is based on PERCEPTION!! The whole "mindless, ontologically evil monsters" argument you just spouted is Khan's/humanities' PERCEPTION of them.
SNW pre-dates TOS remember.
I know thinking hurts when you're a mindless toxic fan, but give it a try for once.
I still think these aren't proper Gorn, just animals from Gornar. Like how you can call a dog or gorilla a "terran" or "earthling" and not technically be wrong.
Can I just say that I love that Strange New Worlds used practical effects for the Gorn.
I love Strange New Worlds. It's my favourite of the "new Trek" shows (and I love Prodigy and Lower Decks, liked Short Treks, liked SEASON THREE of Picard [season 2 was awful and season 1 is probably my least favourite Star Trek ever], and - though Discovery's been a mess from the beginning - I have found it improves slightly each season). I seriously look forward to SNW each week that it's on. Great cast. Great classic Trek feel with blessedly episodic stories (current Trek doesn't seem to do season long arcs...well). I was even in for the musical episode. All that being said, their take on the Gorn is - I feel - one of their few missteps. If you need a species to be THAT different from what we see in the earlier episode (and - thematically - that different from the point of that episode), and you have an involved arc planned complete with subspace border negotiations with a people Kirk and crew (including Spock, Uhura and Scotty) don't know at all years later, just make up a new species.
I'd love to see how the Gorn and Hirogen get along (or don't).
...ngl, it irritates me to no end at how the Gorn got depicted in the new show. One of the few reptilian races in the franchise, and a perfect chance to produce a sympathetic depiction of a reptilian race which we rarely ever see. BUT NOOOOOOOO, they're just a bunch of predatory raiders with a bit of random xenomorph added. Mind you this is fuckin Star Trek that did this, Star Trek the franchise, not just show, FRANCHISE about exploration and peace through understanding.
I agree with you wholeheartedly as beta Canon Gorn seemed done in a mostly respectful manner in the previous index by the various writers of their lore.
Really mammals tend to be considerably more brutal than reptiles. If you look up snakes competing for mates, even venomous ones, you'll see they'll do wrestling matches and almost literally every time never bite each other. Of course they ain't got arms or claws but monitor lizards are kinda similar in that they too wrestle, and I believe don't kill each other.
Mammals, uh, let's just spear the opponent with my massive bone horns and let them bleed out on the ground or something IDK.
Or "this is my harem now, I'm gonna kill all the kids."
I like the changes to the Gorn except for the infecting prey with eggs by spraying them with something. It's a little too Magog (Andromedia) for me. I would like to see the Strange New Worlds take on Tholians.
Prehaps with Replicator technology they completely change their life cycle? It becomes mainstream between TOS and TNG, and the idea of using a _Replicated_ host might result in a complete change in their society and culture.
[After all Vulcans went through a massive change soon after the time of 'Enterprise' with Telepathy going from forbidden to mainstream.]
And the changes results in the Gorn becoming able to coexist with the Federation.
Add in Holodecks as a outlet for their hunting instincts and they could become regular citizens that just need to make special arrangements when breeding and having recreational programs that _most_ others find disturbing.
Or _these_ particular Gorn are a separate religious fundamentalist sect that practice _the Old Ways_ that mainstream Gorn reject, who use lab grown non aware host (which might be far more medically safer for the young).
But if this is 'currently' the common behaviour of their species, 24th century Gorn might consider mid 23rd century Gorn as barbaric the same way Federation Humans view pre contact Humans.
"We used to use living beings as incubators." Gorn parent to their now intelligent child that they raise in a traditional Humanoid fashion.
"Honey, we've got company tonight, make sure junior is well fed beforehand, we don't want him hunting the guest.... well put him on a leash."
Idk but at some point they gotta make this work. Gorn are supposed to be intelligent enough to play baseball. These aren't it.
As normally, thank you for the content but I can't say I am a fan of turning the Gorn into Alien wannabees.