I personally love the idea that everyone else used the simplest method while the Vulcans used a complex system as a flex on all their neighbors. It just fits the [ENT era] Vulcans perfectly. I've been saying that for years, and I love that someone with an actual audience has put that out there.
Personally, I think that both of them are, likely about the same in simplicity, it's more of a versatility thing. Warp Rings seem to be better if you don't need to avoid anything or change course or more. It would be a great courier/cargo vessel design for shipping things between set locations that are relatively clear of obstructions...the design might even be something the federation might have for bulk freight within the core of the Federation. However, the turning issues and similar things mean that they're a liability in a warzone since you can track them far more easily and they can't react as well. You also have issues with more complex courses such as if you need a shifting arc or similar for the best course due to other things nearby.
Reminds me of the dynamic between OG Apple PC and Microsoft PC. Is Apple 'better'? No, and in most cases hell no. But it isn't really a downgrade either, its simply different, innovative creativity based instead of practicality and efficiency based, and in a couple key areas more proficient. We didn't load up military and government computers with Apple or their software, we were not throwing them into schools, no games were going out of their way to design themselves around the hardware and software, but they had their place in the domain of art outside of gaming(digital art, movies, music). Niche(which contributed indirectly to enhanced security), alternative, and something most wouldn't do because of how unnecessary, how expensive, and how proprietary repair and maintenance demands for it are. And most comparitively to the Vulcans, even to this day, Apple owners feel like it is a flex on everyone who uses non Apple based computers. Plus, lets be honest, up until the modernization of customization for PCs, Apples always looked better in design too regardless of where they stood in performance and operation.
@@joshbull623 Apple used to be better for some things and PC for others...then they went all in on pretention there. For a long period while I grew up, the family computer was a power mac...it worked well, but it was annoying since everyone else was using PC and there weren't games for it bar a small section of Sears that had some of the CDs that worked with both before Sears started having a pile of issues (Including the purging of expertise and merging all of their non-appliance electronics into one department leading to them discontinuing any of their Mac support)
"Logically you would plot a straight-line course to your destination before engaging warp drive. There is no need for high manoeuvrability at warp speeds beyond the rare necessity to avoid obstacles that the screens cannot handle." - T'oi L'ett, a Vulcan scientist I met in the bar at Quarks.
Well, that "Vulcan" seems to have had a little too much syntethol... There are more obstacles out there than one might think. Not all of them are solid, though.
Always thought Vulcan ring ships were the best looking alien vessel. Vulcans have a very refined sense of aesthetics for an emotionally repressed people.
I like how the Vulkan design is really logical from an in-universe perspective, since warp nacelles are supposed to be able to see each other. Can't get more line-of-sight than a ring.
According to the Haynes Klingon Bird-of-Prey Technical Manual, written by Rick Sternbach no less, the BoP has "warp wings", a fairly unique design involving capacitance plates in the wings themselves, rather than conventional solenoid-like warp coils in dedicated housings. It means you need a big surface area for your warp engine, but if your starship design already has big wing structures then it saves you having to have additional nacelles as well, preserving manoeuvrability and minimising weight, which is important for a ship that features atmospheric flight capabilities and can freely land and take off from planet surfaces.
Yep. The Manual doesn’t explicitly say so, but my headcanon is that the wing/plates design is from the Hur’q and the nascent Klingon Empire kept it on the grounds of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
@@markfergerson2145 And that fits with the Hur'q being early Dominion Jem Hadar precursors as well, obviously the Dominion would have set their ships up for planetary landings.
@@markfergerson2145There's also a fanfic on the Star Trek Online forums that holds that the Hur'q attacked Qo'noS while the Klingons were at a stage of technological development similar to Earth in WW2, and the familiar Klingon starship design is based on a bomber aircraft reminiscent of an Earthly YB-49.
If the ring is more efficient but less maneuverable, you'd think it would be employed by freighters and cargo transports. Who want to conserve as much fuel as possible for long haul flights. I would like to see some Federation ships using the ring design for that purpose. I think it'd be an interesting addition to the lore.
Might be nice to see the main ship of a series responding to such a freighter that's, say, been attacked by pirates. When the ship shows up on the viewscreen, one of the bridge crew can comment that it's an express freighter and thus likely to be carrying cargo that's particularly tempting for pirates, and that the pirates could be likely to be trying to sell the stolen cargo in the near future, because you usually only charter such a ship for time-sensitive cargo.
Don't forget that the exodus spawned other vulcanoid offshoots, and so supports the idea of a slower, potentially multi-generational, exodus where there would be several offshoots: the Mintakan and the Debrune, to name a few.
i also have the theory that during fights the Ring of the bigger warships could have been rotated 90° to be flush with the outside hull making it much harder to hit and therefore eliminating or at least defending one of the biggest weakspots of any warp capable ship. Sadly that was never shown on screen, but I still love that Idea
They rotated the ring so that the smaller ship kept in the middle could dock and undock. It would be a nice design trick for planetary landing capable ships. But in combat, you want your warp drive up and running at a moments notice, not requiring a time-consuming mechanical change.
Venom Geek Media mentioned in another video that the Vulcans specifically designed the ship that way during the war with the Romulans (when Archer was leading the war). So it seems you’re spot on.
@@casbot71 yes you are right, ideally you'd want your warp engine to be ready whenever you need it, but I'd argue it would generally be better to have it at all if you need it, because we've seen how easy it seems to be to knock out warp engines during combat, effectively denying your prey the capability to flee. It also depends how long that movement would actually take, the idea isn't new, Voyager also had to move it's warp assembly into position, though it was a very fast transition. If that transition would only take a couple of seconds I'd think the solution would be worth it, since your opponent only has a very short time window to act instead of the whole combat
That may be why Starfleet ships went with the nacelle. It would be impossible to knock those ships out of warp in a front on attack and really hard at all other angles, unless you attack the warp bubble itself.@@JohnSheppard92WasTakenThxYT
@@shauntempley9757 well I don't really know about that, it seems to be pretty easy to damage the nacelles of a federation ship so they have to drop from warp, we've seen that countless times on screen. You wouldn't really engage a ship at warp from head on since at that speed you have an extremely short window of opportunity to strike your pray, you'd want to attack from behind and it is very easy to hit the nacelles from behind. I think Starfleet ultimately went with the nacelle design for ease of use and adaptability, which seems to be their primary motivation for nearly everything. Nacelles are easier to repair and configure then a ring would be. They are also less demanding to maintain. You can also easily add more or just use one for limited amounts of time, so you have a certain amount of redundancy. We see quite a lot of more combat focused Starfleet ships with 4 nacelle designs, so they could maintain limited warp capability even with 3 damaged nacelles, with Rings that should be harder to accomplish. It's a really interesting topic, but I think both designs have pro's and con's
Yes, it was my head cannon that the twin nacelle could theoretically get to to well above warp 7 as a design by the time of the NX-01, even if nowhere near reaching it, so humans went that way. Whereas the Vulcans, complacent by the time of Enterprise saw no need to go that fast, or as they iterated slowly, the energy requirements seemed too far away. But then humans come along and move fast and break things!
@@KianaWolfI once saw a really funny exchange on Tumblr claiming that humanity's "thing" in Trek is that we're basically a species of mad scientists. "Aliens watch the Back to the Future movies and don't realize Doc Brown is meant to be funny. They just go 'Yes, that's exactly what human scientists are like in my experience.' To a Vulcan, MacGyver ist basically vintage tech-based horror." The "theory" went on that Federation ships practically attract strange phenomena because they're collections of highly experimental tech held together more by the confidence of their designers than anything else. On the one hand, that puts every starfleet vessel at constant risk of being spontaneously swallowed by some random space anomaly. On the other hand, it allows the crew to basically pull any needed bullshit technobabble-solution out of their collective ass to save the day.
ruclips.net/video/lZf_nDuD4mI/видео.htmlsi=bUXnkkYpWesBCK9x This pretty much explains most of the Vulcan "slow but steady" philosophy... because the last time they tried what humanity did, they had that little issue with They Who March Beneath the Raptors Wings (romulans) and they ended up nuking themselves
I always thought the reasons Vulcans had rings was they let them have more precise sensor readings at warp even if they were much harder to maintain or something else scientific like that
I figured that the ring drive has a big requirement for maintenance. If your warp specialist has 200 years of experience and spends all day tweaking the warp field, then a ring drive works. If you don't have time to do all those adjustments, linear nacelles are better. And probably better for "ruggedness" if you start getting shot at.
A deep dive into the Vulcans would be FA-BU-LOUS. I think we might have learned more common-people details about the Vulcans from Tuvoc (and Nelix's pestering) than from Spock, who taught us from a higher "intro to Vulcans" level.
You want to talk more about Vulcan History? Of course I'd watch it. I'm still waiting fro continuation of Star Trek Online though. Your narrations adds so much to it that it is irreplaceable IMO. I just wish Tarsi could blow up something, like she used to.
Perhaps the path across space that the Vulcan exiles navigated, should be looked into what worlds/navigateion hazards did thay run into along the way? It's quite a distance from Vulcan to Romulus. Slower Sleeper Ships or Multi-Generational Ships might have effected how long the trip lasted also not all Vulcan exiles desided to live on Romulus.
*Vulcan Ambassador Soval:* We had our wars, Admiral, just as Humans did. Our planet was devastated, our civilization nearly destroyed. Logic saved us. But it took almost 1500 years for us to rebuild our world and travel to the stars. You Humans did the same in less than a century. There are those on the High Command who wonder what Humans would achieve in the century to come. And they don't like the answer.
A lot of people have said it already, but the Vulcan design resembles that of the concept art for the Alcubierre drive. Though I'm not sure which came first, it makes pretty convenient sense either way. However, Romulans may not have needed warp technology to make it across the galaxy, as we saw Bajorans and other species travel via non-warp means over long periods of time. Solar sails can actually get pretty decent speeds as well, even in a vacuum with little to no proximity to a star.
the bajoran lightships were pushed to a semi-controlled warp speed jump by getting caught in a tachyon eddy, they did not travel very far from bajor without doing that
Rick, I thank you for your ST work. From the lore, to STO, show reviews, and more, your work is incredible, & I appreciate your efforts through the years! Many Thanks, - Carn
Just remember: The Vulcan science directorate has determined that time travel is impossible, so we're pretty certain the timeline should be consistent ;)
The timeline screws with me. The Vulcans make the Warp 1 engine. They collectively say "Whoa. That was too fast. We need to slow development down drastically." And take a break for 100 years. In that time, the division happens that sends the soon-to-be Romulans into the depths of space. Using just the Warp 1 engine design because it's all they have. And those Romulans, instead of settling on say, a world nearby that wouldn't take centuries to reach at Warp 1, instead travel as some kind of migrant fleet (doubt it was ONE ship) an entire galactic quadrant away. That's a hell of a journey to get away from family. Lol
My personal take is that the ring system is technically more stable once you get it to work - with both the upsides and downsides that has. Due to the warp geometry it creates, it is largely self-sustaining, with few ways it could ever fail catastrophically - however, this rigidity also makes it much less adaptable and near impossible to make quick adjustments. It also requires the ship and drive to be fine-tuned to each other, with higher speeds requiring much more work than just "MOAR POWA!" Compared to the singular "low pressure corridor" the ring design projects around the ship, the nacelle variant instead creates two "high pressure" areas that turn the area between them into a comparably "low pressure" zone that the ship can cruise through. This takes more energy and requires constant monitoring, but you can easily adjust the two fields against each other - not only for steering, but also to adjust for any inaccuracies your design may have. That would easily explain why Starfleet would ditch the warp ring after their first tests, since nacelles are much more prototype friendly in their adjustability - which also allowed them to progress so much faster than the Vulcans.
That is actually a very interesting information! If that is the case, it would then be more efficient to produce civilian warp ships with the Ring design than the twin nacelles. Because you wouldn't need that level of flexibility for a civilian design. So if true, I would expect most of civilian ships to be "ringed" & military ships to have "nacelles".
Also my view ont his. :) I'm outfitting one variant of the Merian class with a ring drive. It will be under NAR registry. It seems logical, especially in later years (2380+ for me) that a well understood efficient ring drive would be outfitted a lot on ships that do standard routes or have a less risk involved task schedule.
According to the "Klingon Bird-of-Prey Owner's Workshop Manual" written by Rick Sternbach & Ben Robinson which is a 'Official Licensed Star Trek Product'. The Klingon Bird of Prey uses "Warp Wings". The Wings themselves are the emitters for the Warp Field. The Aft Red emission is the Impulse Drive Exhaust and it's MASSIVE, that's what allows the Bird of Prety to have amazing STL acceleration & Top Speeds. It's Impulse Drive is excessive for a vessel of it's size & mass.
Romulan warp drives aren't powered by a singularity gravitational field. They're powered by the intense radiation emitted by a singularity's accretion disc. It's actually a really plausible power source in real life, if we could actually create a microsingularity in the first place.
Love the conclusion that Vulcans are just showing off! It's the most perfect explanation. They're so proud but they deserve the credit for their precision. 🖖
Love the look and the real-world influence that inspired the warp ring. Since nacelles have multiple warp coils, one wonders if the ring was made with one coil or multiple "plates". There are other warp capable ships with an internal line of sight area. Great video 👏🏻
It could be a parallel to the German Panther and the Soviet T-34. The Pather was a much better tank when it was working. The T-34 was good enough and could be repaired with a hammer and bubble gum. The Soviets also made them by the thousands.
My assumption is that the faction that later became the Romulans where those most advanced in that research but where losing the clan war. So they left wth all of their research to start again somewhere else. They must have kidnapped all scientists they could from other factions, destroyed all remaining research installations and took the data with them. In short, Surak's clan won the war but left Vulcan nearly destroyed (may be the future Romulans must have launched all they had in terms of WMDs before leaving for good) and with no researchers and no tech to use in space to go after the culprits. (I'm trying to reconstruct logically what must have happened) No wonder they took so long before reattempting space travel with warp drive. First they had to rebuild their civilization and society, unify the planet and culture for good (and that could take a while) and rebuild the space industry from scratch. Plus add some level of fear that going that far could bring new problems, new factions wanted to try other ways of life (those without logic that NX01 comes across... for example), so the Vulcan Administration stayed very conservative and played it safe. Empathetic to Humans just coming out of their nuclear war, they thought implementing the same principles on the Human Warp Program would work. They thought wrong. Warp tech and first contact is what cimented Earth and not the otherway around (despite some discordant voices, Terra Prime I'm looking at you). Vulcans simply lost their objectivity with their fear that what happened to them could happen to humans (despite showing some prudence is still a good move over impatience, they tried to boos humans around, obtaining the opposite result as the one they desired) In fact one could argue that being part of the interstellar community was the new raison d'être of the Earth...
i have a theory about borg warp nacelles. they have better warp tech than anyone so the warp rings of the vulcans wouldn't be beyond them, i think they'd have 3 warp rings arranged in a sphere in the center of the ship to allow immediate warp travel in any direction without needing to turn first. its what i imagine the eventual development of warp tech would be, the perfect efficiency of the ring, even more maneuverable and stable than nacelles, and more reactive and agile than either. it would be the best geometry for combat at ftl speeds too though thats depicted rarely in trek its what ship combat would turn into eventually if we extrapolated what we know about the setting forward. imagine a borg ship warping in blasting all its weapons in an alpha strike and in less than a second disappearing back into warp speeds zipping out of system and back around behind you to do it again. you try to run going to warp yourself but the moment you get to ftl speeds the cube is already behind you, now corkscrewing around you still carving up your ship. you fire back and in warp it dodges your torpedo.
It was implied in the show, that while Vulcan's slowly tuned they drives. Henry Archer break Warp 3 barrier using clever hack where additional third coil hidden between nacelles actively compensated instability of the Warp field, allowing humans to go to Warp 5, despite not having stable reactor. Because Warp work by going closer to subspace, more flat field is needed to not breach into it, because otherwise weird anomalies start taking place. On low level usually causing vibrations what tear ships apart. It seams that Up to Warp 2 even highly unstable field is too weak to breach into subspace. But Humanity could go Warp 5 without having stable field and by extend when Compensator failed, ships jump into subspace. What did happen to Columbia, Enterprise, Old Bonaventure (Ceres) and most notably Franklin. And yes, that meant time travel shenanigans. It make sense that only reason why Vulkcans give Earth they classified Warp 7 Drive, was to rid of high performance Archer Drives. What honestly did work. PS: Borg use transwarp technology, so they utilize T'Kon'ian Gate network directly. And mentioned ancient alien network actually may be source of subspace. We in fact know that Borg is tolerated there only because they use Temporal Compensator. So yes, they drive have same nature as subspace. Though unlike Spore Drive they can only jump to beacons.
It makes sense if after the war a faction of Vulcan’s assumed the planet was beyond salvaging. So they built their generation ship and left. The planet then deteriorated, almost wiping out all remaining Vulcans. Subsequently, surviving Vulcans had to start from scratch and over the next few hundred years the new generations weren’t taught the old ways. Eventually, perhaps they discover the ruins of their old civilisations which sparks a few hundred years of rediscovery. Eventually leading to warp travel once again. This timeline allows for the romulan faction to leave while also making sense of the vulcans apparent 1000 year period of stagnation.
I took the warp nacelle being the easiest to maintain/repair, it was made from scraps after all. The ring might better while in use possibly not damaging subspace.
To be honest, I have a slight issue with those rings being at the rear. Okay, the Vulcans are quite adept at this stuff, but still, how the heck do they produce a warp field that encompasses the entire ship, back to front? Is this warp bubble tear shaped? Would definitely decrease the impact on subspace.
@@Timberwolf69The placement of the ring at the rear likely IS meant to make the tear drop shaped field. It makes sense if you have the bulbous end of the warp "tear" (Tear as in crying) taper at the nose of the ship.
@@chrisdufresne9359 I'm still trying to wrap my head around how this should work. The ring as such would normally project a spherical bubble, in my opinion, it would need at least one coil in the tip of the nose to have an attachment point for the tear.
That was probably the intended interpretation when the XCV Ent was moved into the timeline to be a pre-warp vessel, but it was originally designed to be an FTL starship during TOS preproduction.
The D'Kyr class is by far the best looking ship in the entire Federation navy. I know everyone loves their Galaxys and Odysseys and Intrepids, but give me a D'Kyr instead any day of the week. Also I know it'll never happen but I would LOVE to have a Trek show set aboard a Vulcan vessel, either a D'Kyr or the newer Sh'vhal. Maybe with a Vulcan captain but a lot of Humans and especially Andorians among the senior staff. The character development for the captain would be amazing, slowly seeing the strengths of emotion and illogical thinking over time, knowing he's (or she's) not supposed to do that, and eventually settling into the idea that emotions and seemingly-irrational solutions to problems aren't inherently bad, they just require good judgement to know when to use them and when not to.
I always loved the Vulcan warp ring. And I always kinds took it as a angel/ holy reference they gave to the Vulcans..like a holy Halo descending from the heavens kind of vibe. Also it looks cool as hell.
Vulcans: "we know where we're going, why would we need to quickly change direction in warp?" Humans: "but what if we see something cool and need to check it out!?"
IIRC the Romulans left in sleeper ships. I think it's mentioned in the episode Gambit I or II. There were a couple other vulcan descended romulan cousins mentioned in that episode.
If i recall correctly, in EVE online there's a series of ships that engage a cloaking device while at warp, and use a 'warp ring' so they can warp jump AND use a special cloaking device at the same time. Lets not talk about the insane power demands that would entail. Also there's a battleship size class in that series that uses the 'warp ring' but couldn't keep the cloaking device despite a ton of expensive R&D to try to fix it. I THINK they're called the SoE (or Sisters of EVE/Eden, i think). I used to play EVE online but quit a while back.
What does maneuverability in warp even mean? Pretty sure there's an episode of Voyager that establishes that you can only go forward at warp speed and that you need to drop to sublight to change course? Didn't Paris have a rhyme? Faster than light, no left or right?
Also seems odd that it would be more efficient, since you are generating a ton of extra height in your warp field vs a nacelle design which is flatter. And you'd also have a much large subspace shockwave with the ring system because, again, it's physically larger. I'm not entirely sure the Vulcans were just being snobs, though it is very Vulcan to do so; rather, perhaps they were just being very stubborn. They had a system which worked, why change it. Their eventual work with Humans showed them that the approach of move fast break things was sometimes acceptable, even if they did continue to stubbornly use their ring ships endlessly after this. And, it makes sense. The rings were part of their history. Giving that up would be giving up a reminder of where they came form.
That actually makes sense, especially for the Vulcans of Enterprise era who had lost their way, having a major superiority complex over all the other emotional species. Which was a major complaint about earlier Enterprise, until the Surak's katra plotline, where they found the original teachings and became the Vulcans we know. Which all ties together with how Earth became the centre of the UFP, which didn't really make sense before.
The Vulcans take things slow like the Elves of Middle Earth. Maybe there is a connection? The species that took the early Elves from Earth and brought them to Vulcan after the 3rd age
To clarify the 'Romulan Way' mention...according to Duane's book. the proto-Romulan exiles made use of a psionic-powered 'bootstrap' jump system in otherwise sublight vessels. This has the unfortunate side effect of burning out (and killing) the psi's involved...causing the number of properly-trained (and eventually properly powered as weaker psi's were later employed due to a lack of the more powerful psis) to dwindle so that when they finally did make landfall, psi was nearly absent among the Romulans.
A warp drive requiring extreme precision would seem to have trouble not just from engineering alignment, but also from every gravity wave and minor spacial anomaly in your path. Fantastic speed and efficiency as long as the path was clear, but prone to stalling when it hit a bump. And a tactical weakness that I'm pretty sure enemies would discover and devise a means to exploit, like mines designed to produce a warp field pulse.
Disabling a warp ring would be harder than diasabling a nacelle. Also a ring would be great place to place deflector shields - also a ring would make easy acces to the warp components within the warp ring. On top of that its a great way to keep the crew fit - by allowing them to run inside the ring ;D
I like the fact that not all the other races have the same warp design. It adds variety to the ship designs. Ps. Even though starfleet uses warp coils. They are still arp rings on a smaller scale than the vulcans. So technically, it seems all species use warp rings in one fashion or another
i thought the ring design was to recycle waste energy and give the ship extended range on less fuel, but can't reach the potential speed of a nacelle design. meaning Vulcans were left behind when exploring, gathering resources and ship to ship combat also early Vulcans are the Goa'uld "you have something i don't, so die "
I thought the Vulcan design had double rings but it was a small inner ring with the large outer ring (reminiscent of a heliocopter design) so it was stable like the double nacelle? Like the inner small ring at center created a protective warp bubble with the encompassing outer larger ring creating the traversal outer warp bubble coalescing into a warp field while ship in flux as space moved around. The difference is that double nacelle created longer [and faster "streamlined"] warp coils while heliocircumcentric warp coil required building larger circumference warp coils...pragmatically speaking, the smaller warp coils being most economical, if that mattered [still], and easiest to design, manufacture and field. Tangentially, the encompassing warp field bubble generating along outer pylon nacelles instead of nacelles tucked into the body like the Prometheus (or the DQ-doppleganger), being the more realistic engineering design, with ponderance...weird Asian engineering thoughts, lol. Of course, I suppose this is my opinion so make of it what you will.
I think it is more likely an emergency warp ring, in case the outer ring would be damaged beyond repair. Warp 2 or 3 is still better than impulse speed when limping back to the nearest station.
Inner ring isn't part of the D'Kyr. Its the warp ring for the auxiliary craft. The D'Kyr's ring rotates into the frame, and the craft launchers ventrally.
They have retconned continuity so many times that i just say hang the sense of it and just enjoy it! I came to that conclusion during enterprise...just be in the moment
Have you heard about the different levels of spacetime dimensions listed in star trek? I'm asking because it is fairly obscure information that very few people know about. Everyone knows about normal spacetime and sub space but not everyone knows about Hyper space, and the other ones. Basically the way it works out there in dimension "0" and then it climbs from there until you reach number "12" or "24" depending upon what cannon you are looking at. Normal spacetime is at "4" and sub space is at "3" or "5" depending upon how it is being used in any given story. The end result is that because they are either excluding a dimension or traveling in one that has lower space density then they are able to break the FTL barrier. These things said it is very complicated and and certain things are only able to happen in certain dimensions and certain things that happen in certain dimensions will absolutely affect others. For example a trans Warp conduit only really happens in a certain dimension but the creation of the conduit ripples out into others causing different effects in each. Then you have certain creatures that are only able to exist in certain dimensions and the complexities keep compounding from there. Also note that Warp, trans Warp, worm holes and many other things only happen in certain dimensions and no matter how fast or compressed or whatever they are it doesn't matter they only are actually happening in their respective dimensions. The last thing I want to say is that certain dimensions affect the functionality of various drives and transportation systems. For example if you were to be in the appropriate dimension for trans Warp you can't develop a true Warp field without it causing problems. Or you need this type of shielding for this particular type of dimension or you can never travel forward in time in another or the matter antimatter intermix ratio is different there causing the drive system to run down or entropy in insanely high or low in a particular dimension. Everything I have listed here has been brought up a minimum of twice in the various series and the games too in many cases tough probably not all. Lastly yes fluidic space is its own special part of this but I don't know what. On a different note there was a book involving species 8472 where a federation ship that had been taken to the delta quadrant but didn't make it all the way to it encountered them and saved them from a borg attack losing their ship in the process. The federation members were on the species 8472 ship for a while as it was taking the humans home as a show of gratitude. A telepath from the federation crew gets seriously injured in a latter battle along with her child. The species 8472 saved the child and imprinted the memories of the parent onto itself. The species 8472 has the child in a healing chamber when voyager encountered it. Janeway finds that and is about to kill the 8472 when she hears it in her head pleading don't hurt my baby and stops realizing what was happening. The humanoid child and 8472 along with the rest of that crew and some parts of the ship are taken back to the federation. They form a sorta alliance from that event.
Vulcans: "We're talking about manipulating the very fabric of space to propel a fragile construct filled with fragile organic beings deep into the unforgiving depths of space. We need to be very careful, and take this very slowly." "Obviously." Humans: "I found a way to tear reality a new a××hole. Someone find me an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile I can strap it to! And make sure it has some decent speakers!" "Yee-HA!"
Cylindrical nacelles are just stacks of smaller rings. Such a modular design is redundant and can retain most of its capacity if a few coils fail or are battle-damaged. The Vulcan design might have to limp home on a small spare like the donut spare tire on a car. Large warp rings can have all sorts of unpredictable oscillation modes so it takes a lot of experience to design them properly. Large devices also require heavy industrial infrastructure, gigantic furnaces, presses, forges and machine tools, so it might not even be possible to construct them locally without first building up that infrastructure. In the 20th century the USSR and Canada didn't have the capacity to forge large pressure vessels for nuclear reactors, so they came up with designs made out of many smaller pressurised pipes that were manufacturable and had the advantage of online refuelling
It's crazy to think Zefram Cochrane's design influenced not human warp flight design, but a big chunk of the galaxy because his work was used by Federation for centuries to come, and even Vulcans recognized that
I've always wondered if Vulcans aren't naturally agressive, but rather that they are all Augments with the Romulans being the least genetically tinkered with hence the biological differences over such a short timespan. They don't tell the humans this, because humans have a phobia about genetic augmentation, it's perfectly logical not to cause them distress.
I always assumed the Romulans and Vulcans split earlier on Vulcan and they left the planet after Vulcans adopted the teachings of Surak (which is what lead to their civil war).
This might be an interesting callback to the relation between the Vulcans and Romulans. The Romulans pride themselves on having shinier (but less sturdy) technology powering their starships. Instead of warp core, they use a singularity. The Vulcans don't develop just a nacelle based warp drive, they develop and develop and improve until they have their very own, highly efficient, warp ring drive.
Another way to explain the Romulans is that the early Vulcan drive couldn't sustain much more than warp 1, but it could go faster in pulses until it overheated. Also at these low speeds you don't even need antimatter, fusion could be used to create the warp field. Of course TNG screws everything up by showing far off planets many thousands of years old that are proto-vulcan.
For a series that prided itself on scientific accuracy, Westmore clowned the entire show changing the Romulans. Evolution on such a radical scale would take millions of years, not hundreds. The one and only thing I've truly hated from TNG-era Trek - which is still superior to anything Kurtzman has shat out - is the Romulan redesign.
The Romulans should have the early records since they didn't seem to lose their tech base. So, why the Romulans haven't saved those records or shared them with the Vulcans for some diplomatic benefit is a bit strange and vague.
How should they have those records if any progress was bombed away by a rival? And even if they had them, what diplomatic benefit would exceed their paranoia? They still were like the Vulcans that threw bombs at each other, just a little more civilized. Instead of genocide, they nowadays assassinate their most influencial rivals to gain influence.
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
I personally love the idea that everyone else used the simplest method while the Vulcans used a complex system as a flex on all their neighbors. It just fits the [ENT era] Vulcans perfectly. I've been saying that for years, and I love that someone with an actual audience has put that out there.
Personally, I think that both of them are, likely about the same in simplicity, it's more of a versatility thing. Warp Rings seem to be better if you don't need to avoid anything or change course or more. It would be a great courier/cargo vessel design for shipping things between set locations that are relatively clear of obstructions...the design might even be something the federation might have for bulk freight within the core of the Federation.
However, the turning issues and similar things mean that they're a liability in a warzone since you can track them far more easily and they can't react as well. You also have issues with more complex courses such as if you need a shifting arc or similar for the best course due to other things nearby.
Reminds me of the dynamic between OG Apple PC and Microsoft PC. Is Apple 'better'? No, and in most cases hell no. But it isn't really a downgrade either, its simply different, innovative creativity based instead of practicality and efficiency based, and in a couple key areas more proficient. We didn't load up military and government computers with Apple or their software, we were not throwing them into schools, no games were going out of their way to design themselves around the hardware and software, but they had their place in the domain of art outside of gaming(digital art, movies, music).
Niche(which contributed indirectly to enhanced security), alternative, and something most wouldn't do because of how unnecessary, how expensive, and how proprietary repair and maintenance demands for it are. And most comparitively to the Vulcans, even to this day, Apple owners feel like it is a flex on everyone who uses non Apple based computers. Plus, lets be honest, up until the modernization of customization for PCs, Apples always looked better in design too regardless of where they stood in performance and operation.
@@joshbull623 Apple used to be better for some things and PC for others...then they went all in on pretention there.
For a long period while I grew up, the family computer was a power mac...it worked well, but it was annoying since everyone else was using PC and there weren't games for it bar a small section of Sears that had some of the CDs that worked with both before Sears started having a pile of issues (Including the purging of expertise and merging all of their non-appliance electronics into one department leading to them discontinuing any of their Mac support)
And they slowly go ayway from be tech best empire bcs they slow grwo
For a field as in a warp bubble, a ring would be the simplest solution not nacelles.
"Logically you would plot a straight-line course to your destination before engaging warp drive. There is no need for high manoeuvrability at warp speeds beyond the rare necessity to avoid obstacles that the screens cannot handle."
- T'oi L'ett, a Vulcan scientist I met in the bar at Quarks.
Well, that "Vulcan" seems to have had a little too much syntethol...
There are more obstacles out there than one might think. Not all of them are solid, though.
Is the potty joke intentional?
@@christopherg2347 No, and I would point out that, around humans, Lady T’oi is rather sensitive about her name, thank you very much.
@@whoshotdk Understandable.
"No left or right at faster than light". Tom Paris
Always thought Vulcan ring ships were the best looking alien vessel. Vulcans have a very refined sense of aesthetics for an emotionally repressed people.
You have to have something to ask a reward for all that logic 😉
They have and appreciate music for its mathematical properties, so why not have a mathematically based sense of artistic beauty as well?
I can't remember if it's Kirk in "Amok Time" or Trip in "Home" who makes this exact comment.
I think T'Pol said something to the effect of "Vulcans can appreciate beauty."
If you like ringships, check out the jump ships from the Foundation series, they are really pretty
I like how the Vulkan design is really logical from an in-universe perspective, since warp nacelles are supposed to be able to see each other.
Can't get more line-of-sight than a ring.
According to the Haynes Klingon Bird-of-Prey Technical Manual, written by Rick Sternbach no less, the BoP has "warp wings", a fairly unique design involving capacitance plates in the wings themselves, rather than conventional solenoid-like warp coils in dedicated housings. It means you need a big surface area for your warp engine, but if your starship design already has big wing structures then it saves you having to have additional nacelles as well, preserving manoeuvrability and minimising weight, which is important for a ship that features atmospheric flight capabilities and can freely land and take off from planet surfaces.
Yep. The Manual doesn’t explicitly say so, but my headcanon is that the wing/plates design is from the Hur’q and the nascent Klingon Empire kept it on the grounds of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
@@markfergerson2145 And that fits with the Hur'q being early Dominion Jem Hadar precursors as well, obviously the Dominion would have set their ships up for planetary landings.
@@markfergerson2145There's also a fanfic on the Star Trek Online forums that holds that the Hur'q attacked Qo'noS while the Klingons were at a stage of technological development similar to Earth in WW2, and the familiar Klingon starship design is based on a bomber aircraft reminiscent of an Earthly YB-49.
Could be...
Also, seems, a bit... flux-liner like.
Or Tr-3b... (if you're a bit Fox Mulder esque...)@@markfergerson2145
maybe that's why the 'wings' have what look like feathers... the 'feather's are individual warp coils.
If the ring is more efficient but less maneuverable, you'd think it would be employed by freighters and cargo transports. Who want to conserve as much fuel as possible for long haul flights.
I would like to see some Federation ships using the ring design for that purpose. I think it'd be an interesting addition to the lore.
Might be nice to see the main ship of a series responding to such a freighter that's, say, been attacked by pirates. When the ship shows up on the viewscreen, one of the bridge crew can comment that it's an express freighter and thus likely to be carrying cargo that's particularly tempting for pirates, and that the pirates could be likely to be trying to sell the stolen cargo in the near future, because you usually only charter such a ship for time-sensitive cargo.
Don't forget that the exodus spawned other vulcanoid offshoots, and so supports the idea of a slower, potentially multi-generational, exodus where there would be several offshoots: the Mintakan and the Debrune, to name a few.
i also have the theory that during fights the Ring of the bigger warships could have been rotated 90° to be flush with the outside hull making it much harder to hit and therefore eliminating or at least defending one of the biggest weakspots of any warp capable ship. Sadly that was never shown on screen, but I still love that Idea
They rotated the ring so that the smaller ship kept in the middle could dock and undock.
It would be a nice design trick for planetary landing capable ships.
But in combat, you want your warp drive up and running at a moments notice, not requiring a time-consuming mechanical change.
Venom Geek Media mentioned in another video that the Vulcans specifically designed the ship that way during the war with the Romulans (when Archer was leading the war). So it seems you’re spot on.
@@casbot71 yes you are right, ideally you'd want your warp engine to be ready whenever you need it, but I'd argue it would generally be better to have it at all if you need it, because we've seen how easy it seems to be to knock out warp engines during combat, effectively denying your prey the capability to flee. It also depends how long that movement would actually take, the idea isn't new, Voyager also had to move it's warp assembly into position, though it was a very fast transition. If that transition would only take a couple of seconds I'd think the solution would be worth it, since your opponent only has a very short time window to act instead of the whole combat
That may be why Starfleet ships went with the nacelle. It would be impossible to knock those ships out of warp in a front on attack and really hard at all other angles, unless you attack the warp bubble itself.@@JohnSheppard92WasTakenThxYT
@@shauntempley9757 well I don't really know about that, it seems to be pretty easy to damage the nacelles of a federation ship so they have to drop from warp, we've seen that countless times on screen. You wouldn't really engage a ship at warp from head on since at that speed you have an extremely short window of opportunity to strike your pray, you'd want to attack from behind and it is very easy to hit the nacelles from behind.
I think Starfleet ultimately went with the nacelle design for ease of use and adaptability, which seems to be their primary motivation for nearly everything. Nacelles are easier to repair and configure then a ring would be. They are also less demanding to maintain. You can also easily add more or just use one for limited amounts of time, so you have a certain amount of redundancy. We see quite a lot of more combat focused Starfleet ships with 4 nacelle designs, so they could maintain limited warp capability even with 3 damaged nacelles, with Rings that should be harder to accomplish. It's a really interesting topic, but I think both designs have pro's and con's
Yes, it was my head cannon that the twin nacelle could theoretically get to to well above warp 7 as a design by the time of the NX-01, even if nowhere near reaching it, so humans went that way.
Whereas the Vulcans, complacent by the time of Enterprise saw no need to go that fast, or as they iterated slowly, the energy requirements seemed too far away. But then humans come along and move fast and break things!
The human philosophy: Take chances, make mistakes, get messy.
@@KianaWolfI once saw a really funny exchange on Tumblr claiming that humanity's "thing" in Trek is that we're basically a species of mad scientists.
"Aliens watch the Back to the Future movies and don't realize Doc Brown is meant to be funny. They just go 'Yes, that's exactly what human scientists are like in my experience.'
To a Vulcan, MacGyver ist basically vintage tech-based horror."
The "theory" went on that Federation ships practically attract strange phenomena because they're collections of highly experimental tech held together more by the confidence of their designers than anything else.
On the one hand, that puts every starfleet vessel at constant risk of being spontaneously swallowed by some random space anomaly. On the other hand, it allows the crew to basically pull any needed bullshit technobabble-solution out of their collective ass to save the day.
ruclips.net/video/lZf_nDuD4mI/видео.htmlsi=bUXnkkYpWesBCK9x
This pretty much explains most of the Vulcan "slow but steady" philosophy... because the last time they tried what humanity did, they had that little issue with They Who March Beneath the Raptors Wings (romulans) and they ended up nuking themselves
Don't forget that Humans almost wiped out warp travel in a quadrant due to their INEFFICIENCED warp design! 😅
@@death13a Are you talking about omega or about the whole subspace degradation thing?
The vulcans love their ships so much, they put a ring on it....
Gd take my heart ♥️
This comment made my day
Hey-oooooooh!
lol😂
Bravo 👏 👏
I always thought the reasons Vulcans had rings was they let them have more precise sensor readings at warp even if they were much harder to maintain or something else scientific like that
I figured that the ring drive has a big requirement for maintenance. If your warp specialist has 200 years of experience and spends all day tweaking the warp field, then a ring drive works. If you don't have time to do all those adjustments, linear nacelles are better. And probably better for "ruggedness" if you start getting shot at.
A deep dive into the Vulcans would be FA-BU-LOUS. I think we might have learned more common-people details about the Vulcans from Tuvoc (and Nelix's pestering) than from Spock, who taught us from a higher "intro to Vulcans" level.
I second that motion!!! 🖖🤠
I kinda realize the Vulcans knew they be left behind so creating the federation was essential for them to not get left behind
You want to talk more about Vulcan History? Of course I'd watch it.
I'm still waiting fro continuation of Star Trek Online though. Your narrations adds so much to it that it is irreplaceable IMO. I just wish Tarsi could blow up something, like she used to.
Perhaps the path across space that the Vulcan exiles navigated, should be looked into what worlds/navigateion hazards did thay run into along the way? It's quite a distance from Vulcan to Romulus. Slower Sleeper Ships or Multi-Generational Ships might have effected how long the trip lasted also not all Vulcan exiles desided to live on Romulus.
*Vulcan Ambassador Soval:* We had our wars, Admiral, just as Humans did. Our planet was devastated, our civilization nearly destroyed. Logic saved us. But it took almost 1500 years for us to rebuild our world and travel to the stars. You Humans did the same in less than a century. There are those on the High Command who wonder what Humans would achieve in the century to come. And they don't like the answer.
Did he say that to Archer?
I’m so glad I found this channel. Now I can watch something good while I cook.
Please. More Vulcan history ❤
A lot of people have said it already, but the Vulcan design resembles that of the concept art for the Alcubierre drive.
Though I'm not sure which came first, it makes pretty convenient sense either way.
However, Romulans may not have needed warp technology to make it across the galaxy, as we saw Bajorans and other species travel via non-warp means over long periods of time.
Solar sails can actually get pretty decent speeds as well, even in a vacuum with little to no proximity to a star.
Isn't the "red matter" that they use also a form of exotic matter?
the bajoran lightships were pushed to a semi-controlled warp speed jump by getting caught in a tachyon eddy, they did not travel very far from bajor without doing that
More Volcano history would be great! 😃
I could give you an earful about Mt St. Helens in Washington state! 🌋❤😁👍
@@Willpower-74205 damn autocorrect! I meant Vulcan. 😂
Rick, I thank you for your ST work. From the lore, to STO, show reviews, and more, your work is incredible, & I appreciate your efforts through the years! Many Thanks, - Carn
More Vulcan, please!
Just remember: The Vulcan science directorate has determined that time travel is impossible, so we're pretty certain the timeline should be consistent ;)
Yes please more Vulcan history I’m begging you
The timeline screws with me. The Vulcans make the Warp 1 engine. They collectively say "Whoa. That was too fast. We need to slow development down drastically." And take a break for 100 years.
In that time, the division happens that sends the soon-to-be Romulans into the depths of space. Using just the Warp 1 engine design because it's all they have.
And those Romulans, instead of settling on say, a world nearby that wouldn't take centuries to reach at Warp 1, instead travel as some kind of migrant fleet (doubt it was ONE ship) an entire galactic quadrant away.
That's a hell of a journey to get away from family. Lol
My personal take is that the ring system is technically more stable once you get it to work - with both the upsides and downsides that has. Due to the warp geometry it creates, it is largely self-sustaining, with few ways it could ever fail catastrophically - however, this rigidity also makes it much less adaptable and near impossible to make quick adjustments. It also requires the ship and drive to be fine-tuned to each other, with higher speeds requiring much more work than just "MOAR POWA!"
Compared to the singular "low pressure corridor" the ring design projects around the ship, the nacelle variant instead creates two "high pressure" areas that turn the area between them into a comparably "low pressure" zone that the ship can cruise through. This takes more energy and requires constant monitoring, but you can easily adjust the two fields against each other - not only for steering, but also to adjust for any inaccuracies your design may have. That would easily explain why Starfleet would ditch the warp ring after their first tests, since nacelles are much more prototype friendly in their adjustability - which also allowed them to progress so much faster than the Vulcans.
I would love to hear more Vulcan (or any other) history- apocryphal, beta canon, or utterly made-up! I really enjoy your take on the Trek universe!
That is actually a very interesting information!
If that is the case, it would then be more efficient to produce civilian warp ships with the Ring design than the twin nacelles.
Because you wouldn't need that level of flexibility for a civilian design.
So if true, I would expect most of civilian ships to be "ringed" & military ships to have "nacelles".
Why wouldn't civilian ships need that flexibility?
I concur, most civilian FTL ships that aren't Government Based, would opt for the Energy Efficiency of the Warp Ring.
Logistics & Energy Costs matter.
@@kamenriderblade2099 Sure, but would it outwiegh the higher cost and maintenance of the ring drive?
@@Timberwolf69 There's no way to know for certain which FTL Warp Drive style has more maintenance costs.
Also my view ont his. :) I'm outfitting one variant of the Merian class with a ring drive. It will be under NAR registry. It seems logical, especially in later years (2380+ for me) that a well understood efficient ring drive would be outfitted a lot on ships that do standard routes or have a less risk involved task schedule.
According to the "Klingon Bird-of-Prey Owner's Workshop Manual" written by Rick Sternbach & Ben Robinson which is a 'Official Licensed Star Trek Product'.
The Klingon Bird of Prey uses "Warp Wings".
The Wings themselves are the emitters for the Warp Field.
The Aft Red emission is the Impulse Drive Exhaust and it's MASSIVE, that's what allows the Bird of Prety to have amazing STL acceleration & Top Speeds.
It's Impulse Drive is excessive for a vessel of it's size & mass.
Do you have a video of the history of the Vulcan and romulans?
Romulan warp drives aren't powered by a singularity gravitational field. They're powered by the intense radiation emitted by a singularity's accretion disc. It's actually a really plausible power source in real life, if we could actually create a microsingularity in the first place.
What about P'Jem? It was said the monastery is like 3,000 or 4,000 years old in that Enterprise episode iirc
A data point of interstellar travel, though not necessarily warp drive. Also ongoing contact, at least radio.
Love the conclusion that Vulcans are just showing off! It's the most perfect explanation. They're so proud but they deserve the credit for their precision. 🖖
Love the look and the real-world influence that inspired the warp ring.
Since nacelles have multiple warp coils, one wonders if the ring was made with one coil or multiple "plates".
There are other warp capable ships with an internal line of sight area.
Great video 👏🏻
Humans: The twin-nacelle design is robust; it's more forgiving of warp field navigational error.
Vulcans: Simply do not make any errors.
It could be a parallel to the German Panther and the Soviet T-34. The Pather was a much better tank when it was working. The T-34 was good enough and could be repaired with a hammer and bubble gum. The Soviets also made them by the thousands.
My assumption is that the faction that later became the Romulans where those most advanced in that research but where losing the clan war. So they left wth all of their research to start again somewhere else. They must have kidnapped all scientists they could from other factions, destroyed all remaining research installations and took the data with them.
In short, Surak's clan won the war but left Vulcan nearly destroyed (may be the future Romulans must have launched all they had in terms of WMDs before leaving for good) and with no researchers and no tech to use in space to go after the culprits.
(I'm trying to reconstruct logically what must have happened)
No wonder they took so long before reattempting space travel with warp drive. First they had to rebuild their civilization and society, unify the planet and culture for good (and that could take a while) and rebuild the space industry from scratch. Plus add some level of fear that going that far could bring new problems, new factions wanted to try other ways of life (those without logic that NX01 comes across... for example), so the Vulcan Administration stayed very conservative and played it safe. Empathetic to Humans just coming out of their nuclear war, they thought implementing the same principles on the Human Warp Program would work. They thought wrong. Warp tech and first contact is what cimented Earth and not the otherway around (despite some discordant voices, Terra Prime I'm looking at you).
Vulcans simply lost their objectivity with their fear that what happened to them could happen to humans (despite showing some prudence is still a good move over impatience, they tried to boos humans around, obtaining the opposite result as the one they desired)
In fact one could argue that being part of the interstellar community was the new raison d'être of the Earth...
They're Vulcans. I suppose the ring in a way signifies complete connection with ideals and technology.
Please do explore more of that!!! I've been a Star Trek Superfan for over 48 years & I'm a Superfan of your RUclips channel as well!!!
i have a theory about borg warp nacelles. they have better warp tech than anyone so the warp rings of the vulcans wouldn't be beyond them, i think they'd have 3 warp rings arranged in a sphere in the center of the ship to allow immediate warp travel in any direction without needing to turn first. its what i imagine the eventual development of warp tech would be, the perfect efficiency of the ring, even more maneuverable and stable than nacelles, and more reactive and agile than either. it would be the best geometry for combat at ftl speeds too though thats depicted rarely in trek its what ship combat would turn into eventually if we extrapolated what we know about the setting forward.
imagine a borg ship warping in blasting all its weapons in an alpha strike and in less than a second disappearing back into warp speeds zipping out of system and back around behind you to do it again. you try to run going to warp yourself but the moment you get to ftl speeds the cube is already behind you, now corkscrewing around you still carving up your ship. you fire back and in warp it dodges your torpedo.
It was implied in the show, that while Vulcan's slowly tuned they drives. Henry Archer break Warp 3 barrier using clever hack where additional third coil hidden between nacelles actively compensated instability of the Warp field, allowing humans to go to Warp 5, despite not having stable reactor. Because Warp work by going closer to subspace, more flat field is needed to not breach into it, because otherwise weird anomalies start taking place. On low level usually causing vibrations what tear ships apart. It seams that Up to Warp 2 even highly unstable field is too weak to breach into subspace. But Humanity could go Warp 5 without having stable field and by extend when Compensator failed, ships jump into subspace. What did happen to Columbia, Enterprise, Old Bonaventure (Ceres) and most notably Franklin. And yes, that meant time travel shenanigans. It make sense that only reason why Vulkcans give Earth they classified Warp 7 Drive, was to rid of high performance Archer Drives. What honestly did work.
PS: Borg use transwarp technology, so they utilize T'Kon'ian Gate network directly. And mentioned ancient alien network actually may be source of subspace. We in fact know that Borg is tolerated there only because they use Temporal Compensator. So yes, they drive have same nature as subspace. Though unlike Spore Drive they can only jump to beacons.
I like that the borg in basically every respect are basically the sci fi space ship equivalent of a fantasy slime monster.
It makes sense if after the war a faction of Vulcan’s assumed the planet was beyond salvaging. So they built their generation ship and left. The planet then deteriorated, almost wiping out all remaining Vulcans. Subsequently, surviving Vulcans had to start from scratch and over the next few hundred years the new generations weren’t taught the old ways.
Eventually, perhaps they discover the ruins of their old civilisations which sparks a few hundred years of rediscovery. Eventually leading to warp travel once again.
This timeline allows for the romulan faction to leave while also making sense of the vulcans apparent 1000 year period of stagnation.
Huh.. I really wondered about all of that. How very.. Vulcan.. of them.
Well done, this was really interesting. Thanks for this Rick!
I took the warp nacelle being the easiest to maintain/repair, it was made from scraps after all. The ring might better while in use possibly not damaging subspace.
To be honest, I have a slight issue with those rings being at the rear.
Okay, the Vulcans are quite adept at this stuff, but still, how the heck do they produce a warp field that encompasses the entire ship, back to front?
Is this warp bubble tear shaped? Would definitely decrease the impact on subspace.
@@Timberwolf69The placement of the ring at the rear likely IS meant to make the tear drop shaped field. It makes sense if you have the bulbous end of the warp "tear" (Tear as in crying) taper at the nose of the ship.
@@chrisdufresne9359 I'm still trying to wrap my head around how this should work. The ring as such would normally project a spherical bubble, in my opinion, it would need at least one coil in the tip of the nose to have an attachment point for the tear.
@@Timberwolf69 The ring may have stronger projectors on the front portion.
Those Volcan histry was best part, do it more :D
I'm always interested in more Trek lore
Yes please do more on the Vulcans
Well done Rick! Another great video mate!❤
More Vulcan videos please sir! Even if they are not cannon, thank you!
Wow. I always assumed the rings on the XCV-330 Enterprise were Centrifugal Artificial Gravity rings.
That was probably the intended interpretation when the XCV Ent was moved into the timeline to be a pre-warp vessel, but it was originally designed to be an FTL starship during TOS preproduction.
4:21 - i appreciate that the bit of spatter was green
More Vulcan history, apocryphal or not, yes, please! 🖖
The D'Kyr class is by far the best looking ship in the entire Federation navy. I know everyone loves their Galaxys and Odysseys and Intrepids, but give me a D'Kyr instead any day of the week.
Also I know it'll never happen but I would LOVE to have a Trek show set aboard a Vulcan vessel, either a D'Kyr or the newer Sh'vhal. Maybe with a Vulcan captain but a lot of Humans and especially Andorians among the senior staff. The character development for the captain would be amazing, slowly seeing the strengths of emotion and illogical thinking over time, knowing he's (or she's) not supposed to do that, and eventually settling into the idea that emotions and seemingly-irrational solutions to problems aren't inherently bad, they just require good judgement to know when to use them and when not to.
You should do some Star Trek audio books. I basically see your voice as the standard for Star Trek narration
I always loved the Vulcan warp ring. And I always kinds took it as a angel/ holy reference they gave to the Vulcans..like a holy Halo descending from the heavens kind of vibe. Also it looks cool as hell.
My Vulcan Tac Officer in Startrek Online flies a Galaxy Dreadnaught named D'vir. So happy the name got a mention.
my headcannon was the Vulcans came to use rings as to avoid the Raptor Wing design because of what it represents philosophically.
Vulcans: "we know where we're going, why would we need to quickly change direction in warp?"
Humans: "but what if we see something cool and need to check it out!?"
IIRC the Romulans left in sleeper ships. I think it's mentioned in the episode Gambit I or II. There were a couple other vulcan descended romulan cousins mentioned in that episode.
If i recall correctly, in EVE online there's a series of ships that engage a cloaking device while at warp, and use a 'warp ring' so they can warp jump AND use a special cloaking device at the same time. Lets not talk about the insane power demands that would entail. Also there's a battleship size class in that series that uses the 'warp ring' but couldn't keep the cloaking device despite a ton of expensive R&D to try to fix it. I THINK they're called the SoE (or Sisters of EVE/Eden, i think). I used to play EVE online but quit a while back.
What does maneuverability in warp even mean? Pretty sure there's an episode of Voyager that establishes that you can only go forward at warp speed and that you need to drop to sublight to change course? Didn't Paris have a rhyme? Faster than light, no left or right?
Ironically, it seems counterintitive that the warp ring would be the less stable option, when it comes to creating a 360 degree bubble around you.
Also seems odd that it would be more efficient, since you are generating a ton of extra height in your warp field vs a nacelle design which is flatter. And you'd also have a much large subspace shockwave with the ring system because, again, it's physically larger.
I'm not entirely sure the Vulcans were just being snobs, though it is very Vulcan to do so; rather, perhaps they were just being very stubborn. They had a system which worked, why change it. Their eventual work with Humans showed them that the approach of move fast break things was sometimes acceptable, even if they did continue to stubbornly use their ring ships endlessly after this. And, it makes sense. The rings were part of their history. Giving that up would be giving up a reminder of where they came form.
That actually makes sense, especially for the Vulcans of Enterprise era who had lost their way, having a major superiority complex over all the other emotional species. Which was a major complaint about earlier Enterprise, until the Surak's katra plotline, where they found the original teachings and became the Vulcans we know. Which all ties together with how Earth became the centre of the UFP, which didn't really make sense before.
The Vulcans take things slow like the Elves of Middle Earth.
Maybe there is a connection?
The species that took the early Elves from Earth and brought them to Vulcan after the 3rd age
More vulkan lore please!
Yes, more of that please!
I love this explanation
Please do make more content on Vulcans.
To clarify the 'Romulan Way' mention...according to Duane's book. the proto-Romulan exiles made use of a psionic-powered 'bootstrap' jump system in otherwise sublight vessels. This has the unfortunate side effect of burning out (and killing) the psi's involved...causing the number of properly-trained (and eventually properly powered as weaker psi's were later employed due to a lack of the more powerful psis) to dwindle so that when they finally did make landfall, psi was nearly absent among the Romulans.
Interesting.
A warp drive requiring extreme precision would seem to have trouble not just from engineering alignment, but also from every gravity wave and minor spacial anomaly in your path. Fantastic speed and efficiency as long as the path was clear, but prone to stalling when it hit a bump. And a tactical weakness that I'm pretty sure enemies would discover and devise a means to exploit, like mines designed to produce a warp field pulse.
its more in line with the theoretical "real world" Alcubere warp drive models currently being designed.
Disabling a warp ring would be harder than diasabling a nacelle. Also a ring would be great place to place deflector shields - also a ring would make easy acces to the warp components within the warp ring.
On top of that its a great way to keep the crew fit - by allowing them to run inside the ring ;D
Can Romulans be called a separate species when they can interbreed with Vulcans and Humans?
I like the fact that not all the other races have the same warp design. It adds variety to the ship designs.
Ps. Even though starfleet uses warp coils. They are still arp rings on a smaller scale than the vulcans. So technically, it seems all species use warp rings in one fashion or another
i thought the ring design was to recycle waste energy and give the ship extended range on less fuel, but can't reach the potential speed of a nacelle design. meaning Vulcans were left behind when exploring, gathering resources and ship to ship combat
also early Vulcans are the Goa'uld "you have something i don't, so die "
I thought the Vulcan design had double rings but it was a small inner ring with the large outer ring (reminiscent of a heliocopter design) so it was stable like the double nacelle? Like the inner small ring at center created a protective warp bubble with the encompassing outer larger ring creating the traversal outer warp bubble coalescing into a warp field while ship in flux as space moved around. The difference is that double nacelle created longer [and faster "streamlined"] warp coils while heliocircumcentric warp coil required building larger circumference warp coils...pragmatically speaking, the smaller warp coils being most economical, if that mattered [still], and easiest to design, manufacture and field. Tangentially, the encompassing warp field bubble generating along outer pylon nacelles instead of nacelles tucked into the body like the Prometheus (or the DQ-doppleganger), being the more realistic engineering design, with ponderance...weird Asian engineering thoughts, lol. Of course, I suppose this is my opinion so make of it what you will.
It looked like there was an inner ring as well. Hmm possibly the steering ring while the outer ring is propulsion ring?
I think it is more likely an emergency warp ring, in case the outer ring would be damaged beyond repair. Warp 2 or 3 is still better than impulse speed when limping back to the nearest station.
Inner ring isn't part of the D'Kyr. Its the warp ring for the auxiliary craft. The D'Kyr's ring rotates into the frame, and the craft launchers ventrally.
fantastic video!!!
Thank you!
Very good video.
They have retconned continuity so many times that i just say hang the sense of it and just enjoy it! I came to that conclusion during enterprise...just be in the moment
Would like to hear your take on the Sword of the Stars FTL travel. Each civilization has it's own version and they can vary widely.
Have you heard about the different levels of spacetime dimensions listed in star trek? I'm asking because it is fairly obscure information that very few people know about. Everyone knows about normal spacetime and sub space but not everyone knows about Hyper space, and the other ones. Basically the way it works out there in dimension "0" and then it climbs from there until you reach number "12" or "24" depending upon what cannon you are looking at. Normal spacetime is at "4" and sub space is at "3" or "5" depending upon how it is being used in any given story. The end result is that because they are either excluding a dimension or traveling in one that has lower space density then they are able to break the FTL barrier. These things said it is very complicated and and certain things are only able to happen in certain dimensions and certain things that happen in certain dimensions will absolutely affect others. For example a trans Warp conduit only really happens in a certain dimension but the creation of the conduit ripples out into others causing different effects in each. Then you have certain creatures that are only able to exist in certain dimensions and the complexities keep compounding from there. Also note that Warp, trans Warp, worm holes and many other things only happen in certain dimensions and no matter how fast or compressed or whatever they are it doesn't matter they only are actually happening in their respective dimensions. The last thing I want to say is that certain dimensions affect the functionality of various drives and transportation systems. For example if you were to be in the appropriate dimension for trans Warp you can't develop a true Warp field without it causing problems. Or you need this type of shielding for this particular type of dimension or you can never travel forward in time in another or the matter antimatter intermix ratio is different there causing the drive system to run down or entropy in insanely high or low in a particular dimension.
Everything I have listed here has been brought up a minimum of twice in the various series and the games too in many cases tough probably not all. Lastly yes fluidic space is its own special part of this but I don't know what.
On a different note there was a book involving species 8472 where a federation ship that had been taken to the delta quadrant but didn't make it all the way to it encountered them and saved them from a borg attack losing their ship in the process. The federation members were on the species 8472 ship for a while as it was taking the humans home as a show of gratitude. A telepath from the federation crew gets seriously injured in a latter battle along with her child. The species 8472 saved the child and imprinted the memories of the parent onto itself. The species 8472 has the child in a healing chamber when voyager encountered it. Janeway finds that and is about to kill the 8472 when she hears it in her head pleading don't hurt my baby and stops realizing what was happening. The humanoid child and 8472 along with the rest of that crew and some parts of the ship are taken back to the federation. They form a sorta alliance from that event.
Vulcans: Why don't you spend centuries to get it right?
Human: because I'm in my 40s and the best I can hope for in terms of age is 120
Vulcans:
"We're talking about manipulating the very fabric of space to propel a fragile construct filled with fragile organic beings deep into the unforgiving depths of space. We need to be very careful, and take this very slowly."
"Obviously."
Humans:
"I found a way to tear reality a new a××hole. Someone find me an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile I can strap it to! And make sure it has some decent speakers!"
"Yee-HA!"
Vulcans: Make it perfect! Everyone else: Keep It Simple Stupid!
Nice video very informative
"Apocroohal Vulc hist..." Would love to see modern revisits of the early-80s books _Spock's World & The Romulan Way._
I loved the Vulcan ships from Enterprise.
The Vulcan landing craft in First Contact wasn't the warp vessel. That was still in orbit.
Cylindrical nacelles are just stacks of smaller rings. Such a modular design is redundant and can retain most of its capacity if a few coils fail or are battle-damaged. The Vulcan design might have to limp home on a small spare like the donut spare tire on a car.
Large warp rings can have all sorts of unpredictable oscillation modes so it takes a lot of experience to design them properly. Large devices also require heavy industrial infrastructure, gigantic furnaces, presses, forges and machine tools, so it might not even be possible to construct them locally without first building up that infrastructure.
In the 20th century the USSR and Canada didn't have the capacity to forge large pressure vessels for nuclear reactors, so they came up with designs made out of many smaller pressurised pipes that were manufacturable and had the advantage of online refuelling
It's crazy to think Zefram Cochrane's design influenced not human warp flight design, but a big chunk of the galaxy because his work was used by Federation for centuries to come, and even Vulcans recognized that
I've always wondered if Vulcans aren't naturally agressive, but rather that they are all Augments with the Romulans being the least genetically tinkered with hence the biological differences over such a short timespan.
They don't tell the humans this, because humans have a phobia about genetic augmentation, it's perfectly logical not to cause them distress.
It would be great with more Vulcan lore
I always assumed the Romulans and Vulcans split earlier on Vulcan and they left the planet after Vulcans adopted the teachings of Surak (which is what lead to their civil war).
This might be an interesting callback to the relation between the Vulcans and Romulans. The Romulans pride themselves on having shinier (but less sturdy) technology powering their starships. Instead of warp core, they use a singularity. The Vulcans don't develop just a nacelle based warp drive, they develop and develop and improve until they have their very own, highly efficient, warp ring drive.
Another way to explain the Romulans is that the early Vulcan drive couldn't sustain much more than warp 1, but it could go faster in pulses until it overheated. Also at these low speeds you don't even need antimatter, fusion could be used to create the warp field. Of course TNG screws everything up by showing far off planets many thousands of years old that are proto-vulcan.
For a series that prided itself on scientific accuracy, Westmore clowned the entire show changing the Romulans. Evolution on such a radical scale would take millions of years, not hundreds. The one and only thing I've truly hated from TNG-era Trek - which is still superior to anything Kurtzman has shat out - is the Romulan redesign.
The Romulans should have the early records since they didn't seem to lose their tech base. So, why the Romulans haven't saved those records or shared them with the Vulcans for some diplomatic benefit is a bit strange and vague.
How should they have those records if any progress was bombed away by a rival? And even if they had them, what diplomatic benefit would exceed their paranoia? They still were like the Vulcans that threw bombs at each other, just a little more civilized. Instead of genocide, they nowadays assassinate their most influencial rivals to gain influence.
If Rick finds non-canon Vulcan history to be interesting, then bring it on! He has good taste (and is always careful to disclose sources.)